Meaning of "Firth of Fifth"
Dan Williams
and started digging into the dictionary and the atlas. I never gave it much
thought, and never really wondered what a Firth was (or why there were 5 of
them, etc.). After discovering that a firth is a branch of the sea ("an
inland sea/his symphony"), I was looking at the map of the UK and noticed
that there are many firths surrounding Scotland. After that, I noticed a
Firth of *Forth* off the coast of Edinburg.
Q's:
Is firth exclusively a Scottish term?
Is there a Firth of Fifth?
Is this a clever word-play on the band's part?
Is there some other deeper meaning that I have overlooked?
Are the events that Peter sings about related to actual history?
- He rides majestic past homes of men who care not...
- The scene of death is lying just below...
- The mountain cuts off the town from view...let it be revealed
- Undinal songs urged the sailors on...
So many songs like Eleventh Earl, Giant Hogweed, etc. are based in history,
I thought this one might be too.
Thanks,
-Dan {8{'>
...tired of reading about the new box set and website...
Doktor Dyper
with Peter talking in French. About dirty water and they could not
drink it. I have to ask again.
Understand Rael, That's The End Of Your Tail.
- Doktor Dyper
DoktorDyper`s Genesis Emporium
http://www.geocities.com/theraeldoktordyper/
CTJDavies
>Firth of *Forth* off the coast of Edinburg.
>
I don't think there is an actual Firth of Fifth, just another word-play from PG
(most probably regarding the Forth i.e: Fourth).
I can remember reading that the lyrics to this song are one of his least
favorite; he just wanted to describe some scenario, like looking at a painting.
If there are historical references - I don't know.
CTJDavies
>with Peter talking in French. About dirty water and they could not
>drink it. I have to ask again.
Peter Gabriel told different stories prior to FoF including the famous Tube
Station, and also one where they (Genesis) jumped up and down on a corpse (sp?)
the gain some drinking water as they were very thirsty - the water out of the
FoF was undrinkable.
He never made any reference to the lyrics (storyline) of FoF which might add to
the fact that there actually is none ?!?
StarTrooper79
A's:
>Q's:
>Is firth exclusively a Scottish term?
I believe so
>Is there a Firth of Fifth?
No
>Is this a clever word-play on the band's part?
pretty much
.jln
Thomas Holter
question, though...):
Peter introduces 'Firth Of Fifth' this way: "This one... Death - by the river.
Have you seen - death by the river? [people shouting "yeah"] Thank you!
We have too. It was lovely. The field in which death was, was all green, yellow,
mushy - and there was mass crawling up from the bottom of these
stumps, which stood out in the middle of the dead field - and the stumps were
crumbling - and there was mass crawling all the way up. In the middle of
the field was a blue spot - and the blue spot was part of a larger thing which
was also green, yellow, lovely colours, soft colours - mushy. It was a
human body, and the human body was rotting away like the rest of the field. Now,
if we had left the human body where it was, it would only had made
the soil a little ... [sorry, inaudible], a little darker, a little more
fertile. But as it was - we were very thirsty - we took the dead body from where
it lay in the field,
and put it onside the ... [sorry, inaudible] in a horizontal position to
facilitate us jumping upon it. That was a little jump ... my dear, of what we
were doing to the
horizontal body. [Applause] Oh, you're so kind! We pass on. And as we were
jumping on the body we produced a small hip of dust on a clear pool of
crystal water - which we drunk, of course - because we were very thirsty from
all the jumping. And a fist of time we found the body in the field and
jumped upon it, and the water in the pool was becoming very dirty, very dirty
around where the mouth was - and being a Scottish mouth, which was
referred commonly as the firth, and being the fifth body... WAIT FOR IT! It was
the Firth of the Fifth, we started this one, thank you, eh...
Dan Williams wrote:
> I was sitting around listening to my favorite track, Firth of Fifth today
> and started digging into the dictionary and the atlas. I never gave it much
> thought, and never really wondered what a Firth was (or why there were 5 of
> them, etc.). After discovering that a firth is a branch of the sea ("an
> inland sea/his symphony"), I was looking at the map of the UK and noticed
> that there are many firths surrounding Scotland. After that, I noticed a
> Firth of *Forth* off the coast of Edinburg.
>
> Q's:
> Is firth exclusively a Scottish term?
> Is there a Firth of Fifth?
> Is this a clever word-play on the band's part?
IT
I had always wondered the same, I had also wondered if they (the band) had
written the lyrics in their entirety. To be specific - 'The sands of time,
were eroded by, the river of constant change'.
The reason why I wonder about this is that I was involved in a 'corporate
retreat' a few years ago, and the company's president at the time used the
aforementioned phrase as an introduction to his presentation on 'change
management'.
He did'nt strike me as a Genesis fan, and I never had a chance to ask him
prior to him getting sacked. Can anyone confirm that this is purely the
band's lyrics??
Regards,
- Ian
"Dan Williams" <dan.wi...@the-spa.com> wrote in message
news:7RlD5.7519$UP5.1...@news6.giganews.com...
Dan Williams
question answered by 15 minutes worth of bull****! :)
Thank you just the same...I really enjoyed reading that story.
-Dan {8{'>
"The Path is clear..." @ www.genesis-path.com
Thomas Holter wrote in message <39DDFCDE...@razorfish.no>...
Dick Zirkzee
sea. The lyrics describe the journey from the eyes of the river. The
instrumental part described it with musical language I never found any
deeper thought in it, except that it can be a metaphore for human life
although thats not very original ) , it really is like a painting, in
lyrics and music.
Dick
BRADLEYDSM
Moldau". This is a gorgeous 19th cen. piece with a melody that screams Tony
Banks. Incidently, I also believe the Moldau is a European river.
Brad
jrsquonk
case, the Moldau is a river in the former Czechlovakia. This piece is part of a
six part cycle of symphonic poems call "Ma Vlast", or "My Fatherland". I do
think that G fans would go for Moldau. Quite a nice piece.
One Man's Fool
follows:
"There were, in the valley, five rivers. To the very mouth, or firth, of the
fifth, we now take you."
I guess that means it's about the firth of the fifth river in a sequence of
five, rather than being about the firth of a river actually called Fifth.
At any rate, Tony was the lyricist, and I understand he considers it his
all-time worst lyric. (I disagree. Firth of Fifth can't be the worst as long
as Burning Rope is around.)
"Dan Williams" <dan.wi...@the-spa.com> wrote in message
news:7RlD5.7519$UP5.1...@news6.giganews.com...
Robin May
CTJDavies <ctjd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001006120533...@ng-ba1.aol.com...
I heard that the story about a corpse was actually because Peter had
looked 'body' up in an English-French dictionary and found the word for
corpse and used that by accident. I think he was trying to say the human
body is 70% water or something like that although I'm not sure.
Edward Antoniu
: I always wondered if the song was in any way inspired by Smetana's "The
: Moldau". This is a gorgeous 19th cen. piece with a melody that screams Tony
: Banks. Incidently, I also believe the Moldau is a European river.
Bedrich Smetana was a Czech composer. Moldau is the German
name for the river of Moldova. It used to be a natural boundary
between two entities: western Moldova (where I too come from,
actually; it's the Scotland of the subsequent entity known as Romania)
and Bucovina (Slavic for "Land of Beeches", actually). At the time you
mention, the latter used to be an impressive interethnic mosaic
(Moldovans, Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Czechs, Jews, Germans,
Hungarians, Ruthenians, etc.) since Poland, Moldova, Czechia, Ukraine,
the Czarist and the Austro-Hungarian Empires shared or traded
boundaries.
I'll leave it to you to decide whether Moldova is in Europe,
but I think that "Firth of Fifth" is still about the Firth of Forth -
the estuary ("now as the river dissolves the sea") in Scotland (the
"sheep" cliche) where Edinburgh also lies on a bank of ("The mountain
cuts off the town from view"). Been there? Done that.
Eddie
let it be revealed in Calgary, AB
NP: King Crimson - Larks' Tongues in Aspic
--
Channel 16, track 4 (Greg Lake) ant...@cim.mcgill.ca
http://www.cim.mcgill.ca/~antoniu
CTJDavies
>looked 'body' up in an English-French dictionary and found the word for
>corpse and used that by accident. I think he was trying to say the human
>body is 70% water or something like that although I'm not sure.
>
originated, but he, as mentioned in some other posting, refers to a book or
movie 'Death by the River', which might hold a clue.
R.H.Watson
Blair Bowers
Thanks
StarTrooper79
>(I disagree. Firth of Fifth can't be the worst as long
>as Burning Rope is around.)
sayeth the man who worships WD?
.jln
One Man's Fool
You must have me confused with someone. Other than God, I worship no
one. An inconvenient reality for you, but true.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
jrsquonk
creatures from the Odyssey. Men who hear them singing cannot resist
them, and thus are drawn to their doom. In the context of this song,
I'm not sure how it should be interpreted.
Michael Poloukhine
Undines were(are?) female water spirits who according to Paracelsus (15th
century Swiss alchemist and physician) could earn a soul by marrying a
mortal and bearing his child. Name derived from Latin "unda" = wave. In the
etymology of the English language, "unda" it is one of the precursors of the
suffix "wed-", of which many others are all essentially also forms of
"water". (Interesting subject: how did we get from water to wedding?)
Firth, (a narrow passage of a body of water at the mouth of a river) also in
the etymology of the English language is a precursor of the suffix "per-" in
the use of "to lead through or pass over" (as in "perforate"). So, sailors,
travellers, passing through the narrow "Firth" along the "undulating" waters
at the mouth of a river, following the songs of undines looking to wed them
and bear their children...
I'll leave it to you to piece together the rest, but suffice it to say that
Freud (where's Annie... his biggest fan!) would have a field day with this
one!
jrsquonk wrote:
> As best as I can describe it, it is the singing of the sirens. Mythical
> creatures from the Odyssey. Men who hear them singing cannot resist
> them, and thus are drawn to their doom. In the context of this song,
> I'm not sure how it should be interpreted.
>
> Blair Bowers wrote:
>
> > While on this topic, what does "undinal" mean?
> >
> > Thanks
--
Michael Poloukhine
po...@genesis.www-hosting.net
http://genesis.www-hosting.net/~polo/collection.htm
Alain Daniel
"Dick Zirkzee" <zir...@worldonline.nl> a écrit dans le message news:
8rl4c8$5ll$1...@nereid.worldonline.nl...
The path is clear for the path is the river, whose water cannot keep the
old steps because it is liquid and changing.
It means some have gone ahead=forth (maybe it was the fifth of
"something" who has stepped forward).The way to escape and go mature is the
river which leads you to the open sea. So, no-one knows the example of the
course,by ship for example.
So the alienated (sheep) stay in their pen, with gods (note the plural of
god) and men, on the earth. It is a consequence because he says "And so
with[...]". Are men in their pen too? possible here, maybe they are the
sheep.
What also strikes me is the double meaning of "The sheep remain inside
their pen".We have seen the first one, but I cannot reject the fact that
those people are not able to draw the sheep of "the little Prince", so the
sheep remain inside their pen. Here is a link with Genesis because The Lamb
Lies[...] could have been a tale about the book by St Exupery. They are not
mature, but are not children, or innocent, or tender and imaginative:they
are too serious.
Tough they have seen the river...they see it everyday. But may be they
feared,do not recognize the way to escape, or meet comfort on earth. The
river usually purifies; it leads to infinity, the prevalent Nature. See,the
more you approach the river, the more mankind is dominated: "The mountain
cuts off the town from view[...]". We are the dirty creatures.Nature can
heal us.
I agree we follow the course of the river, see the landscape reflected
on the water.The river has the power to erase our failure, and time is
stronger for the river has overwhelmed ancient homes, maybe underwater like
old villages under lakes.Death is not (only) by the river,but under the
water (maybe it explains its taste).We ignore or like to see our reflection
in the river,and the natural elements, but we also bring pollution to it.
Then, the water falls into a lake, pass from "madrigal" to "symphony":
these kind of musical work didn't existed at the same time. It evolves in
time.Nature has its beauty, its music which call us like in Tolkien's Lord
of Rings and Silmarillon: the population felt the call and songs of seas and
oceans.And they were nostalgic about the sea.
Something from the sea call some people:Sailors like in Seven Stones
(dominated by the elements but saved by chance, embodied by Nature:a
gull).So, some go to the sea, stronger than them. They are the possible
tribute to Neptune. The picture now is the river into the sea. But all stay
on earth, the Shepherd (with capital S,see who it is) leads the flock away.
What is strange is that sheep remain with Gods and Men
on earth, in their pen.What about the sea? No gods there? Or real gods like
some antic divinities (Neptune)? The GodS evoked are close, linked to
men,those various monotheist and polytheist religions? Not The craftman who
makes the clocks erode the sand of times and the river run.
[...]
Fill the gap yourself,
maybe it's just a plain and confused description...;-)
Syl Just a few ideas....
P.S
There is a musician called Everett Firth,and the fifht horseman...don't
know if it helps.
Dan Williams
Thanks to you for the making of the song which is posted in your message
that would be to me clearer than the message posted in the intiality. Your
thoughts are possible to be at least concise and yet, imaginative too as is
the most of your messages are on the average.
-Dan
Roxanne and Tony
worthwhile...Thanks, Syl.
--Tony D.
"Alain Daniel" <sylv...@club-internet.fr> wrote in message
news:8rv2mt$edl$1...@front2m.grolier.fr...
>
> "Dick Zirkzee" <zir...@worldonline.nl> a écrit dans le message news:
> 8rl4c8$5ll$1...@nereid.worldonline.nl...
> > I always thought it was just the story of a river from the source to the
> > sea. The lyrics describe the journey from the eyes of the river. The
> > instrumental part described it with musical language I never found any
> > deeper thought in it, except that it can be a metaphore for human life
> > although thats not very original ) , it really is like a painting, in
> > lyrics and music.
> >
> > Dick
> >
> >
>
ianlane
"Roxanne and Tony" <roxa...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:39e6635e$0$28255$6536...@news.bitstream.net...
Alain Daniel
"ianlane" <ian...@breathemail.net> a écrit dans le message news:
39eb5...@news1.vip.uk.com...
> I think Dick has the right idea.
Yes, there is a "pictural" progression.I don't know if it's the only
meaning.
Syl.
> "Roxanne and Tony" <roxa...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> news:39e6635e$0$28255$6536...@news.bitstream.net...
> > It's posts like this that make wading through all the muck and bickering
> > worthwhile...Thanks, Syl.
> >
> > --Tony D.
> >
Polecat
meant that way...
Some of your posts are inciteful, lucid and coherent, with some really good
ideas.
Some of your other posts leave me wondering what the hell you're talking
about!
Do you have good days / bad days for your writing, or do you sometimes post
messages under the influence of something?
Please don't be offended, I'm genuinely curious.
--
Cheers,
Polecat
Custodian of the amg gallery - http://website.lineone.net/~amg-gallery
james...@gmail.com
Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/undine#9yveEEPpFBDVrrpv.99
amyr...@gmail.com
petrs...@gmail.com
wpt...@gmail.com
> I was sitting around listening to my favorite track, Firth of Fifth today
> and started digging into the dictionary and the atlas. I never gave it much
> thought, and never really wondered what a Firth was (or why there were 5 of
> them, etc.). After discovering that a firth is a branch of the sea ("an
> inland sea/his symphony"), I was looking at the map of the UK and noticed
> that there are many firths surrounding Scotland. After that, I noticed a
> Firth of *Forth* off the coast of Edinburg.
>
> Q's:
> Is firth exclusively a Scottish term?
> Is there a Firth of Fifth?
> Is this a clever word-play on the band's part?
> Is there some other deeper meaning that I have overlooked?
> Are the events that Peter sings about related to actual history?
> - He rides majestic past homes of men who care not...
> - The scene of death is lying just below...
> - The mountain cuts off the town from view...let it be revealed
> - Undinal songs urged the sailors on...
>
> So many songs like Eleventh Earl, Giant Hogweed, etc. are based in history,
> I thought this one might be too.
>
> Thanks,
> -Dan {8{'>
> ...tired of reading about the new box set and website...