Censure Robert Sacks at the Worldcon!
Chris Carrier
censure against Robert Sacks at the Los Angeles Worldcon?
The text of the proposed resolution:
RESOLVED: For numerous acts detrimental to fandom occuring over a
period of many years, Robert Sacks is hereby censured by the
Worldcon Business Meeting.
To be an official co-sponsor, one must be a member of Worldcon 54
(the 1996 Worldcon, also known as LA Con III).
If you are willing to be a co-sponsor, please write back email
along with your phone number and snail mail address (so I can
send you a copy of the resolution to sign).
LA in '96 ... IT'LL BE A RIOT!
Chris Carrier
Anti-Sacks League
INTERNET: 72157...@compuserve.com
Mary Kay Kare
done, I guess not. Does this belong in a filk group, by the way.
MK
Gary Farber
: Within his own circles, Robert Sacks is notorious. WorldCon is hardly
: the place to censure such a local pest; most people will never have heard
: of him.
Actually, Worldcon Business Meeting fandom is one of Robert Sacks' most
active circles, and everyone who attends them knows him much too well.
On the other hand, much as I sympathise with this motion, I think it
unwise for the Business Meeting to set a precedent of censuring anyone
without specific cause. So any such motion should minimally cite any of
the zillions of specific causes for which Sacks might be censured. :-)
--
-- Gary Farber Middlemiss gfa...@panix.com
Copyright 1996 for DUFF Brooklyn, NY, USA
Jonathan Waite
which quoted the original message in full. I've never heard of Robert
Sacks, I don't know what he's done, I don't know any good reason why I
should need to know, and I'm not in fandom to censure people. All those
who agree with me, please signify by not extending this thread any
longer....thanks.
Zander
Dick Eney
Chris Carrier <72157...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>Is there anyone here interested in co-sponsoring a resolution of
>censure against Robert Sacks at the Los Angeles Worldcon?
>
>The text of the proposed resolution:
>
>
>RESOLVED: For numerous acts detrimental to fandom occuring over a
>period of many years, Robert Sacks is hereby censured by the
>Worldcon Business Meeting.
>
>
>To be an official co-sponsor, one must be a member of Worldcon 54
>(the 1996 Worldcon, also known as LA Con III).
>
>If you are willing to be a co-sponsor, please write back email
>along with your phone number and snail mail address (so I can
>send you a copy of the resolution to sign).
>
profane nature.
Even at a court-martial, the trial begins with a statement of the charges
and specifications. Is this Newt Gingrich or Bill Clinton we're talking
about, where the wicked deeds are matters of common knowledge?
|----------Dick Eney (dick...@access.digex.net)----------|
|If you think the system isn't working, ask someone who is|
|---------------------------------------------------------|
Gary McGath
<10222...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>Since I have no idea who Sacks is or what he's supposed to have
>done, I guess not. Does this belong in a filk group, by the way.
It probably doesn't, and my spam filter apparently caught the original,
since I never saw it. In my own judgment, Bob is a good guy who treads the
paths of high-level fannish politics where one makes lots of enemies, so
this sort of thing is to be expected -- and, as you say, has nothing to do
with filk anyway.
--
Gary McGath gmc...@mv.mv.com
http://www.mv.com/users/gmcgath
"Keep your FCC-ing hands off my computer."
Michael Dillson
:>Is there anyone here interested in co-sponsoring a resolution of
:>censure against Robert Sacks at the Los Angeles Worldcon?
:>
:>The text of the proposed resolution:
:>
:>
:>RESOLVED: For numerous acts detrimental to fandom occuring over a
:>period of many years, Robert Sacks is hereby censured by the
:>Worldcon Business Meeting.
:>
:>
:>To be an official co-sponsor, one must be a member of Worldcon 54
:>(the 1996 Worldcon, also known as LA Con III).
:>
:>If you are willing to be a co-sponsor, please write back email
:>along with your phone number and snail mail address (so I can
:>send you a copy of the resolution to sign).
:>
:>LA in '96 ... IT'LL BE A RIOT!
:>
:>Chris Carrier
:>Anti-Sacks League
:>INTERNET: 72157...@compuserve.com
What the ......
--------------------
Mike Dillson
Atlanta, GA
dil...@mindspring.com
All content copyright by writer and may not be reproduced without
his written permission.
Lee Burwasser
>
>Even at a court-martial, the trial begins with a statement of the charges
>and specifications. Is this Newt Gingrich or Bill Clinton we're talking
>about, where the wicked deeds are matters of common knowledge?
>
>|----------Dick Eney (dick...@access.digex.net)----------|
Within his own circles, Robert Sacks is notorious. WorldCon is hardly
the place to censure such a local pest; most people will never have heard
of him.
--
Lee Burwasser lburw...@crs.loc.gov
Landover MD USA
*working stiff -- don't blame me for policy*
Daniel S Goodman
Chris Carrier <72157...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>Is there anyone here interested in co-sponsoring a resolution of
>censure against Robert Sacks at the Los Angeles Worldcon?
>
>The text of the proposed resolution:
>
>
>RESOLVED: For numerous acts detrimental to fandom occuring over a
>period of many years, Robert Sacks is hereby censured by the
>Worldcon Business Meeting.
This way, your resolution sounds like a paranoid rant. You don't want
that, particularly if (as I suspect) it IS a particularly uninspired
paranoid rant.
Since one of the newsgroups you posted it to is alt.fashion, I infer that
Sacks has consistently violated fandom's dress code.
Dan Goodman goo...@freenet.msp.mn.us
Ben Yalow
>Is there anyone here interested in co-sponsoring a resolution of
>censure against Robert Sacks at the Los Angeles Worldcon?
<rest of text deleted>
>
>Chris Carrier
>Anti-Sacks League
>INTERNET: 72157...@compuserve.com
I'm obviously opposed.
This motion, assuming it is seconded and offered, will be being brought
up for essentially the second time. It came up at ConFrancisco -- the
objection to consideration passed by a gazillion to two. As did the
onjections to several other motions.
Those interested in further research may want to consult the ConFrancisco
Business Meeting Minutes, at:
http://sflovers.rutgers.edu/archive/fandom/WSFS/WSFS.minutes93
and look at the preliminary business meeting (first day), New Business,
Items B through D.
Ben
--
Ben Yalow yb...@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
Kay Shapero
:>Is there anyone here interested in co-sponsoring a resolution of
:>censure against Robert Sacks at the Los Angeles Worldcon?
:>
Unless some of those actions had to do with filkdom, d'ya think this thread
could stay out of alt.music.filk? Please?
(copy sent via netmail in case he doesn't read this group.)
Kevin Standlee
> I suppose this has been posted here because it's a natural for filks of a
> profane nature.
>
In parliamentary procedure, one would state the "charges" in "WHERAS,..."
clauses. OTOH, it's rarely a good idea to add a bunch of Wherases to a
resolution because (1) they have no effect and (2) some people who might
support the resolution wouldn't support the Wherases.
Note that the above is merely a parliamentary opinion, and does not
indicate my support for the original poster's goals.
Kevin Standlee
Deputy Chair/Parliamentarian, 1996 WSFS Business Meeting
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a thought from Kevin Standlee -> (stan...@LunaCity.com)
LunaCity BBS - Mountain View, CA - 415 968 8140
Kevin Standlee
> What the ......
Look at the bright side. It may divert attention from the ongoing MOC
Topic 1 around here for a while.
Gary McGath
People -- it should be obvious to everyone that Chris Carrier's only
purpose in spamming this message to alt.fandom.cons, alt.fandom.misc,
alt.fashion, alt.music.filk, and alt.shared-reality.sf-and-fantasy was to
start a flamewar that would disrupt the newsgroups. Let's NOT give him the
satisfaction.
The Followup-To: line of this post redirects responses to alt.flame.
Danny Lieberman
>Within his own circles, Robert Sacks is notorious. WorldCon is hardly
>the place to censure such a local pest; most people will never have heard
>of him.
Actually Lee, Robert is well known at worldcons, and has earned a
reputation for a hard worker, if a bit tedious.
In the meantime, this is the same Chris Carrier that came to
ConFrancisco and insisted on motions to "ban" robert sacks from
a sixty mile zone around any worldcon.
What makes Chris Carrier think he can get away with his nonsense
again?
--
Danny Lieberman
d...@panix.com
http://www.panix.com/dfl/
Kelly Lockhart
: Since one of the newsgroups you posted it to is alt.fashion, I infer that
We have a dress code now? Damn it, I really have to stop missing all
these meetings! :-)
-- Kelly Lockhart
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| kel...@cris.com http://www.cris.com/~kellyl |
| k.loc...@genie.com Genie SFRT1 Category 38 Topic 4 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Keith A. Glass
'nuff said. . .
--
* Keith A. Glass, Fairfax, Virginia, USA, Filker/punster at large *
* Washington Coordinator, Electronic Freedom March *
* 30 June 1996, Washington DC URL: http://www.efm.org *
* Note: the following line is an intentional act of Civil Disobedience: *
* FUCK THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT--DEFEND THE FIRST AMENDMENT ! *
Keith Stokes(ConQuesT 27)
>Since one of the newsgroups you posted it to is alt.fashion, I infer that
>Sacks has consistently violated fandom's dress code.
Rather, he personifies the fandom dress code of an earlier period.
I find his whole routine rather cute.
Certainly cuter that Chris Carrier's routine at the Hogu awards.
But your mileage may very.
Keith
Chris Carrier
pointed out, I had thought that, as in the manner of our
President, Mr. Bill, or Speaker Gingrinch, their misdeeds would
be so well known as not to need repeating.
So, would anyone be interested in cosponsoring an Anti-Sacks
League resolution with a bunch of WHEREASes detailing his postal
cruelty to Michael Hopcroft, or his harassment of the lovely
Rhiannon? Or his attendance at the funeral of a fan "to make
sure" she was dead?
Let us conclude with some words of wisdom from Barney the
Dinosaur, to make this an appropriate posting for the filk ng:
I hate him, he hates me
Let's vote no on Bobby.
With a motion from me,
And a second signed by you,
Let Sacks know you hate him too.
I hate him, he hates me
We're feudy fans like fans should be
With a motion from me,
And a second signed by you,
Let Worldcon know you hate Sacks too.
Daniel B. Holzman
Chris Carrier <72157...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>
>So, would anyone be interested in cosponsoring an Anti-Sacks
>League resolution with a bunch of WHEREASes detailing his postal
>cruelty to Michael Hopcroft, or his harassment of the lovely
>Rhiannon? Or his attendance at the funeral of a fan "to make
>sure" she was dead?
Unless any of this enters into the business of the WSFS, I don't see
where a censure from them is appropriate. You want to see Sacks shunned
by New York fandom for his stunts in New York, fine -- just open your
eyes. It's not as if Robert's topping people's invite lists for
parties.
--
Daniel B. Holzman -- Love does not subtract, it multiplies. -- All acts of love
and pleasure are Her rituals. -- An it Harm none, do what you Will. -- They
took my name and stole my heritage, but they didn't get my goat. -- The
word is all of us. -- Remember the Twelth Commandment and keep it Wholly.
Jonathan Waite
started.
Zander
Tom Smith
: Concerning my proposal to censure Robert Sacks ... as someone
: pointed out, I had thought that, as in the manner of our
: President, Mr. Bill, or Speaker Gingrinch, their misdeeds would
: be so well known as not to need repeating.
: So, would anyone be interested in cosponsoring an Anti-Sacks
: League resolution with a bunch of WHEREASes detailing his postal
: cruelty to Michael Hopcroft, or his harassment of the lovely
: Rhiannon? Or his attendance at the funeral of a fan "to make
: sure" she was dead?
: Let us conclude with some words of wisdom from Barney the
: Dinosaur, to make this an appropriate posting for the filk ng:
:
: I hate him, he hates me
: Let's vote no on Bobby.
: With a motion from me,
: And a second signed by you,
: Let Sacks know you hate him too.
:
: I hate him, he hates me
: We're feudy fans like fans should be
: With a motion from me,
: And a second signed by you,
: Let Worldcon know you hate Sacks too.
Ahem.
I would say that I'm not one to stick my nose into something where
it might get whacked off, but God and Fandom knows that ain't true.
So, not knowing you, not knowing Robert Sacks, I'd like to say
something that's been on my mind since this whole rigamarole started.
If you've got a beef with this guy, take it up with him in private
-first-. If you have, and have made no headway, then start exploring
other options. Has he done anything legally actionable? Are his
actions provable, and demonstrably odious to all those concerned?
Are there witnesses? Is there evidence?
Insisting that all of fandom get together at WorldCon and sponsor
a resolution censuring someone sounds like something Pat Buchanan
might have come up with. "Hey, everyone! We're in an informal
worldwide nonexclusionary social group. Somebody is purported
to have done some nasty things. Let's not do anything about it...
except all of us say 'We Hate You!'"
Not -once- have we really heard -either- side of this debate.
(And please don't e-mail it to me. At this point I don't care,
and I'm not taking sides.) The closest thing to specific
allegations I recall seeing is your post, above.
You got a problem with Robert Sacks? Take it up with Sacks.
Take it up with the law, if need be. But leave the fans out of it.
Fandom is a circle of literary acquaintances and hard-earned
friendships, not an army of moral vigilantes. And WorldCon is a
gathering of people with common interests, not a lynch mob to be
fired up at innuendo.
Oh, and... lose the song.
--
Best,
+-------------------------------+-------------------------------+
| Tom Smith (toms...@izzy.net) | Amiga - Babylon 5 - MST3K |
| The World's Fastest Filker | http://www.izzy.net/~tomsmith |
+-------------------------------+-------------------------------+
Tad L. J. Pierson
TAD
Kay Shapero
TS>Take it up with the law, if need be. But leave the fans out of
TS>it. Fandom is a circle of literary acquaintances and hard-earned
TS>friendships, not an army of moral vigilantes. And WorldCon is a
TS>gathering of people with common interests, not a lynch mob to be
TS>fired up at innuendo.
Hear hear!!!!!
Chris Carrier
His Highness of 4861 Broadway, NYC, NY.
"Want to hear a few Sacks Stories?"
"Got a few days?"
Chris Carrier, Anti-Sacks League
Douglas E. Berry
Chris Carrier <72157...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>Path:
news.hooked.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.emi.net!scifi!bocanews.bocaraton.ibm.
com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeed
s.ans.net!gatech!news.jsums.edu!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news.ac.net!imci4
!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!news.production.compuserve.com!n
ews
>From: Chris Carrier <72157...@CompuServe.COM>
>Newsgroups:
rec.arts.sf.fandom,alt.fandom.cons,alt.music.filk,alt.tv.barney,alt.tv.dinosau
rs.barney.die.die.die
>Subject: Re: Censure Robert Sacks at the Worldcon!
>Date: 11 Apr 1996 01:39:27 GMT
>Organization: .
>Lines: 11
>Message-ID: <4khnsf$p8h$1...@mhade.production.compuserve.com>
>Xref: news.hooked.net rec.arts.sf.fandom:35291 alt.fandom.cons:14699
alt.music.filk:28082 alt.tv.barney:7280
alt.tv.dinosaurs.barney.die.die.die:4454
>Status: N
> "Want to hear a few Sacks Stories?"
>
>
> "Got a few days?"
Actually, no. I could care less about you, or what this person has done, or
anything that happens in New York City. You, sir, have annoyed me far more
than Mr. sacks has ever done. From what I can tell, with my personal
experience, it is YOU who needs a slap on the wrist.
If you can't handle one jerk, don't expect the WSFS to do it for you!
# ---------------------------------------------- #
# Douglas E. Berry dbe...@hooked.net #
# Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru #
# #
# "Liberty consists in doing what one desires" #
# -John Stuart Mill #
# ---------------------------------------------- #
Jeremy95
situation... <G>
The bottom line is: Sacks likes to carp, and Carrier likes to whine. What
we have here is an unlikable force encountering an intolerable object....
I should also note that, outside of WSFS business, I have always found Mr.
Sacks reasonably charming. Not that I'd want to room with him, or have him
marry my sister, but hell - if that was the standard for fandom, then
fandom would be small indeed.
Anyway. Just my 2 cents (four cents canadian)
- Jeremy Bloom
Kevin Standlee
> The bottom line is: Sacks likes to carp, and Carrier likes to whine. What
> we have here is an unlikable force encountering an intolerable object....
An excellent way of putting it! Well spoken, Jeremy!
> I should also note that, outside of WSFS business, I have always found Mr.
> Sacks reasonably charming. Not that I'd want to room with him, or have him
> marry my sister, but hell - if that was the standard for fandom, then
> fandom would be small indeed.
You have a good point. I'm actually amazed at how politely Robert seems
to treat me even when I (politely, but pointedly) tell him that I
disagree with him or think his proposals are totally unworkable or
unreasonably complex. (You think _my_ schemes are complicated, you
should try reading through some of the stuff he proposes.)
(Aside: I've heard people say that if we really wanted to kill the
NASFiC, we should sell it to Robert and his pocket corporation. It would
fall apart due to internal complications fairly quickly.)
Sally
Dear Readers,
What ever happened to the Beatles??
I would like anyone who still follows the Beats to please write
to me!!! I think that Paul McCartney is a sex beast and that Lennon had
the greates mind on the planet. There should be a Beatle news group!!!!!
Yellow Matter Custard dripping from a dead dogs eye
Crabalocker fishwife pornographic priestess
boy you've been a naughty boy, you let your knickers down.
I am the eggman, OOHH!!
They are the eggmen, OOHH!!
I am the Walrus, GOO GOO G'JOOB
from a beatle fan.
mcre...@delphi.com
>the greates mind on the planet. There should be a Beatle news group!!!!!
than one.
as to your subject line: except as source material for parody, the Beatles
are not exactly on-topic here (except as examples for "ose" [Eleanor Rigby]
and "cheery-ose" [Maxwell's Silver Hammer]); this group is for the folk
music peculiar to, and of interest to, science fiction fans. There are many
filksongs written TO Beatles tunes (I daresay I've done a couple myself),
but the originals aren't quite what we discuss here, although there are
probably a fair number of Beatle fans here.
Check your news server under the alt.music.* and rec.music.* hierarchies;
I KNOW that there is at least one, and probably more than one, Beatles fan
newsgroups out there. Good luck!
Sincerely,
Mary the Filker (a Beatles fan for about 30+ years)
Kay Shapero
S>Subject: Why doesn't anybody on the newsgroup talk about the
S>Beatles??
Maybe because this is alt.music.filk? Check around; I suspect there's a
Beatles newsgroup someplace but this really isn't it.
Tom Digby
:
: Dear Readers,
Why not go to rec.music.beatles and see if anybody there is interested?
--
-- Tom
bub...@well.sf.ca.us
http://www.well.com/user/bubbles/
Keith Bierman QED
Perhaps we collectively misunderstand. Perhaps there is a new Filk
group known as the Beatles, or this is a request for Filk about
insects, or perhaps (unbeknownst to us all) the Beatles were a '60s
filk group ...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Keith H. Bierman keith....@Sun.COM| k...@chiba.Eng.Sun.COM
SunSoft Developer Products | k...@netcom.com
2550 Garcia UMPK16-304 415 786-9296 | (415 7869296) fax
Mountain View, CA 94043 <speaking for myself, not Sun*> Copyright 1996
jk...@watson.ibm.com
In <taz3f5s...@chiba.eng.sun.com>, keith....@eng.sun.com (Keith Bierman QED) writes:
>Perhaps we collectively misunderstand. Perhaps there is a new Filk
>group known as the Beatles, or this is a request for Filk about
>insects, or perhaps (unbeknownst to us all) the Beatles were a '60s
>filk group ...
Note that many (most? all?) Beatles songs have been filked,
usually multiple times. If you're looking for a filk of a particular
song, someone here can probably point you in the right direction.