Essay/Review: Dream Theater - Scenes From A Memory
Marco van Leeuwen
Memory" (1999)
Reviewer: Marco van Leeuwen (over...@caiw.nl)
Review Date: November 13th 1999
Album: Dream Theater - "Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory"
(1999)
Tracklisting:
ACT I:
1 Scene One: Regression (2:07)
2 Scene Two: I. Overture 1928 (3:38)
3 II. Strange Deja Vu (5:12)
4 Scene Three: I. Through My Words (1:02)
5 II. Fatal Tragedy (6:49)
6 Scene Four: Beyond This Life (11:23)
7 Scene Five: Through Her Eyes (5:29)
ACT II:
8 Scene Six: Home (12:54)
9 Scene Seven: I. The Dance Of Eternity (6:14)
10 II. One Last Time (3:47)
11 Scene Eight: The Spirit Carries On (6:38)
12 Scene Nine: Finally Free (11:59)
** ** ** ** **
*PARALLELS
The better part of a decade ago the album "Parallels" (1991) by prog
metal pioneers Fates Warning unexpectedly became an almost-hit,
spawning two moderately successful radio singles ("Point Of View" and
"Eye To Eye"), and selling in significantly larger numbers than the
band’s previous releases. Sadly, the real breakthrough failed to come,
but the band was intent on giving it another try. On their next
effort, "Inside Out" (1994), they attempted to recapture the
accessible-but-subtly-complex feel of "Parallels", producing an
interestingly diverse album. However, even though it contained moments
of brilliance ("Monument", "Island In The Stream"), the album turned
out to be fairly controversial: some fans loved it, but others were
disappointed Fates Warning had broken their tradition of progressing
considerably with each album.
Guitarist and main songwriter Jim Matheos then decided to make the
next album for the fans and the band itself, forgetting about airplay,
sales lists, commercial viability and record company pressures.
Completely concentrating on making a work of art rather than a product
intended to make as much money as possible, the band produced the
54-minute song "A Pleasant Shade Of Gray" (1997). Apart from
satisfying the band’s longtime fans, this introspective and moody
masterpiece also caught the attention of a fair share of the prog
metal fan community, dominating discussions on the various prog
newsgroups for a long time.
In 1992, Dream Theater’s "Images And Words" took the metal world by
storm, impressing music fans around the world with an interesting
blend of technical prowess, heavy riffing and beautiful melodies.
"Pull Me Under" achieved fairly heavy rotation on fortress of
commerciality MTV, and the album’s two other singles ("Another Day"
and "Take The Time") were reasonably successful as well. "Images And
Words" ended up selling over half a million copies, to the surprise of
virtually everyone.
Despite being not unsatisfactory on both a commercial and artistic
level, the follow-up "Awake" (1994) didn’t quite live up to the
standards its illustrious predecessor had set. Buckling under record
company pressure, Dream Theater toned down the chops and composed
several songs that were more intentionally radio-oriented for their
next full-length album, "Falling Into Infinity" (1997). The Dream
Theater fans were rather divided in their appreciation of the band’s
new direction, some applauding the more song-oriented approach, others
criticising the commercialism and relatively poor production values
apparent on some tracks.
Operating under a veil of secrecy while recording their next album,
rumours run rampant in the fan community about a possible followup to
the mysteriously titled masterpiece "Metropolis - Part 1" from "Images
And Words". A few weeks before the album’s release the veil was
lifted, and it became known that instead of "Metropolis - Part 2"
being one song, as many originally suspected, it turned out the entire
album was the long-awaited sequel - a single story spanning twelve
songs. Keeping even the record company in the dark for much of the
writing and recording of this project, most commercial motivations
that prevailed during the making of "Falling Into Infinity" were
forgotten, focusing instead on creating the most musically intense
album since "Images And Words". Ironically, this turned out to be a
very effective marketing move, if the pre-release buzz and the
majority of the reviews are any indication.
The parallels in the above two sequences of events are clear: coming
out of a failed attempt at breaking through into the mainstream that
followed a surprise hit, each band decided to forget about commercial
viability and proceeded to create a thoroughly impressive album,
possibly even deserving of the monicker "masterpiece". Perhaps more
significantly on a philosophical level, each release explores the
machinations of memory, both as a mental faculty and as a disruptive
force in a person’s daily life.
*MEMORIES
Each human brain is a neural network, formed by uncountably many
neurons, cells that either stimulate or inhibit the flow of minute
electric pulses and in that sense function somewhat like transistors.
A certain data structure travels through different neural layers, the
initial sensory stimulation entering at the input level. The
activation patterns of vast amounts of neurons at the output layer
represent thoughts, pattern transformations between layers due to the
synaptic weights of individual neurons (their propensity to either
transmit or inhibit the electric pulse given a stimulus of a certain
energy level) determining the composition and evolution of that
thought.
A simple feedforward neural net is merely capable of representing an
infinitesimally thin period of time - the renewal rate is determined
by the recovery rate of the sensory apparatus, but despite the fact
the activation patterns at the output layer represent a perceived
sequence of events, this sequentiality is not understood by the neural
net in question, because the activation pattern of a certain layer is
in effect reset every time a new data structure arrives. In order to
create this awareness, the neural network needs to have backwardly
propagating connections: linkages of higher neural layers with lower
layers, so a certain data structure is fed through (a certain portion
of) the neural net several times. This way a simple form of short-term
memory - and with it an awareness of the flow of time - is created.
In complex neural networks like the ones humans possess this faculty
is compounded by long-term memory, a highly developed version of what
is a fundamental feature of neural networks. A neural net is capable
of rebuilding a certain data structure based on degraded input,
because in the past that or a similar data structure had been
imprinted on it by implementing a certain structure of synpatic
weights. In effect, remembering is retrieving something that has been
programmed into the brain in the past by using the appropriate input.
Because of this it is possible for an occurance or sensation to
trigger a (possibly unrelated) memory you thought you had forgotten,
or how you can remember something by repeating the problem or the
small part you do remember in different ways.
Memories populate the continuum formed by our understanding of our
personal history. The way this continuum is constructed is highly
subjective, due to the unique blend of presuppositions, opinions and
fragments of knowledge each of us possesses. This means that, barring
the use of more or less objective recording tools such as video
cameras, the way we’re situated in reference to the past as well as
the future is highly subjective as well. The past is only know to us
in memories, the future is only understood by us based on
extrapolations of the now that use our understanding of the way
similar situations developed in the past.
In other words: our memories define our understanding of time. Events
that were personally important will be remembered well and will be
appointed a relatively large amount of "memory space", but might be
altered considerably due to our constant revisiting and modifying
those events in memories - after all, we perceive those scenes from
the past through the filter of the present: the way we understand and
rate those memories is influenced by our current mood and intellectual
advancement. Occurances we considered unimportant will be remembered
poorly or not at all and will be appointed very little "memory space",
but might survive relatively unscathed if inadvertantly remembered
much later in life. This way meaningful periods in effect expand in
our memories, and meaningless periods deflate. Strangely enough the
inverse is true for the immediate appraisal of such periods as we
experience them, which becomes clear when you consider the well-known
saying "time flies when you’re having fun". Conversely, when living
it, a boring period lasts unbearably long, but in retrospect such a
period will have flown by because nothing of importance happened in
it.
*SCENES
I mentioned that our current way of perceiving the world influences
the way we relive our memories. The reverse is also true: memories can
have a profound influence on our thoughts and actions in the present.
The aforementioned "A Pleasant Shade Of Gray" contained a beautifully
subtle exploration of this theme: a man lies in bed, unable to sleep,
awaiting a new day. He relives his past: the hopes and dreams of
youth, the good and bad times in his relationship, the pleasure and
the pain of the course he chose for himself, and all the emotional
changes that brought him where he is today. Feeling all these emotions
again, he manages to form some sort of understanding of his current
situation, and derives new strength from that to once again enjoy his
life together with his loved ones.
The music supports this moody theme perfectly: understated, beautiful
and powerfully moving. The song does contain several reasonably
complex passages, but is mostly composed in a minimalist style,
letting the melodies, lyrics and moods speak for themselves. The
tasteful keyboard parts by Kevin Moore, previously of Dream Theater,
provide a perfect compliment to the band, that had been primarily
guitar-driven on previous recordings.
"Scenes From A Memory" also explores memory as a theme, but chooses a
different path. Lyrically, reincarnation and memories of a previous
lifetime are used to tell a reall story, with dialogue, a number of
different characters and descriptions of specific events. This means
there’s an actual plot, that even takes some effort to figure out -
adultery, a high-level politician, double murder and a suspicious
cover-up are the main ingredients.
The character Nicholas is plagued by memories of these events, even
though he did not live them. Under hypnosis he manages to find out
what happened exactly, and he develops an emotional attachment to its
female protagonist, supplying clues about who it is exactly that he’s
a reincarnation of. A plot twist is supplied in the very last minute
of the album, which I won’t spoil for any prospective listeners.
Suffice to say the temporal key that is supplied in the lyric booklet
is proved to be somewhat misleading by this turn of events.
While the plot is interesting and fleshed out in a satisfying manner
(i.e. with very few odd or embarassing attempts at writing poetry),
the characters remain fairly flat. "A Pleasant Shade Of Gray", on the
other hand, enables a deep emotional understanding of the protagonist,
but is rather vague on the details - it explores a continuum of ideas
and emotions rather than telling a story. The way this trade-off is
appreciated will be different for each listener.
Musically, "Scenes From A Memory" is the band’s most blatantly
progressive and shred-like in years - some might even use the term
"wankerish" here and there. There’s some seriously impressive material
on this album, and Dream Theater has more than enough technical
ability to have the music transcend the realm of good intentions into
the realm of virtually flawless execution.
*VERDICTS
Oftentimes a band’s lineup is changed many fans hold their breath in
in anticipation, hoping the new member(s) will not change (read:
devolve) the sound of the band they know and love too much. With the
new keyboard player on this album, Jordan Rudess, this wasn’t
necessary, and didn’t really happen anyway. His work with guitarist
John Petrucci and drummer Mike Portnoy in the "Liquid Tension
Experiment" project already proved beyond any glimmer of a doubt he
had the ample technical abilities necessary to keep up with a band
such as Dream Theater.
Derek Sherinian, the band’s previous keyboard player and a virtuoso in
his own right, did an admirable job, but Rudess appears to complement
Petrucci better. The two occassionally shred like there’s no tomorrow,
but luckily this is usually in the service of the song rather than
instead of it. The only track that really sounds like an extended solo
and doesn’t hold together well - despite being very impressive from a
technical viewpoint - is the "Metropolis - Part 1"-inspired "The Dance
Of Eternity". "Erotomania" from "Awake" was no less complex and
performed a similar function (not really a song in itself but more a
musical interlude), but was structured better; a similar case can be
made for the complex instrumental outro of Fates Warning’s "At Fates
Hands".
It seems Petrucci is finally settling into a style that’s his own - on
previous albums, he often sounded like a cross between Yngwie
Malmsteen and Steve Vai, with a few other guitarists mixed in in
smaller quantities, but on this album he sounds more comfortable doing
his own thing - the result of his continuing development as a guitar
player.
Mike Portnoy and bass player John Myung are their usual dependable
selves, though the latter is often difficult to hear, and the former
has chosen a drum sound that’s less appealing to me (but that’s
nitpicking).
Now we get to the not-quite-brilliant parts. The production on this
album (by Portnoy and Petrucci) is quite an improvement over the
somewhat muddy sound of "Falling Into Infinity", but lacks the punch
of "Awake", and sorely underplays the keyboard parts. If you have such
a great keyboard player within you ranks, it would make sense to let
him showcase his abilities outside of his solos as well.
The beautiful voice of guest vocalist Theresa Thomason received an
even worse treatment: she’s sadly underused, and more often than not
condemned to a badly audible life in the shady sonic backgrounds. I
would have loved to hear her perform the designated "pretty song" of
this album, "Through Her Eyes", or perhaps she could have performed
Victoria’s parts. The guest vocals of D.C. Cooper, Laura Jaeger and
James LaBrie on Shadow Gallery’s "Tyranny" were given places that were
more in accordance with their abilities.
James LaBrie does a better job on this album than he did on "Falling
Into Infinity", but I can’t shake the impression he’s really the weak
link of the band. Perhaps it’s a matter of taste, but apart from his
performances on "Images And Words", "Live A The Marquee" and most of
"Awake", I really don’t like his contributions very much. At least he
has his breathing under control here. Perhaps D.C. Cooper, Symphony
X’s Russel Allen or Fates Warning’s Ray Alder would fit better here,
but since the band and many fans seems to be content with James, I
guess this point is moot.
Despite the fact this album contains a fair amount of jaw-dropping
material, it’s somewhat uneven in compositional quality. In between
the highly exciting parts there are several less interesting sections,
that are not quite boring but come close to it. There’s also a hint of
an inability of choosing a solid musical direction to accompany the
lyrical content: there are some recurring musical themes - not just
internally but also externally, like revisitations and even a direct
sample of "Metropolis - Part 1" - but sometimes the complexity of the
music (which is quite satisfying in itself) gets in the way of what is
essentially a very tragic story.
Don’t let these bits of criticism - all rather minor - fool you: this
is a very good album, and is a more than worthy addition to the Dream
Theater catalog. However, in my opinion it almost but not quite
compares to "Images And Words" - that album’s freshness is not present
on "Scenes From A Memory". I feel it does qualify as their best work
since, so I’m giving it a high rating.
Final Verdict: "Metropolis II: Scenes From A Memory" receives
[91/100].
Highlights: "Fatal Tragedy", "The Dance Of Eternity".
** ** ** ** **
Other Releases By Dream Theater:
"When Dream And Day Unite" (1989) [88/100]
"Images And Words" (1992) [93/100]
"Live At The Marquee" (1993) [89/100]
"Awake" (1994) [90/100]
"A Change Of Seasons" (1995) [86/100]
"Falling Into Infinity" (1997) [83/100]
"Once In A Livetime" (1998) [88/100]
Recommended Prog Metal Concept Albums By Other Artists:
Fates Warning - "A Pleasant Shade Of Gray" (1997) [100/100]
Queensrÿche - "Operation: Mindcrime" (1988) [85/100]
Savatage - "Dead Winter Dead" (1995) [88/100]
Shadow Gallery - "Tyranny" (1998) [89/100]
-Marco van Leeuwen.
Kerbdog is Wilt
Atrox
be holding out breath for the definitive Lemur Voice concept album in
2000?
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
toasty_g
out that your opinions were just that.
Too bad teachers in college don't assign topics such as this. I mean, who
the hell wants to write about comparing and contrasting Hamlet and Oedipus.
Why couldn't we write about something that sparks our interest such as this?
But of course, creativity isn't exactly outwardly encouraged nowadays is it?
Brett G.
--
Visit Toasty's Town - your place on the net for... something!
http://www.angelfire.com/la/toastystown/index.html
Marco van Leeuwen <over...@caiw.nl> wrote in message
news:382dcf3d...@news.kabelfoon.nl...
> Queensr˙che - "Operation: Mindcrime" (1988) [85/100]
Slagman
explain the poetry and music of this rich album.
Also check out the review on http://www.beatline.com/eagleline
Arend
Marco van Leeuwen heeft geschreven in bericht
<382dcf3d...@news.kabelfoon.nl>...
Mike Patrick
>the hell wants to write about comparing and contrasting Hamlet and Oedipus.
>Why couldn't we write about something that sparks our interest such as
this?
>But of course, creativity isn't exactly outwardly encouraged nowadays is
it?
Yes, God forbid you'd be exposed to a 'classical' education. The meticulous
dissection of rock albums is much more meaningful and greatly advances the
human condition.
Mike
SMH
Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
Diablo6491
>I can't take this guy seriously who wrote the review because he gave a
>Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
If that means perfect score, I belive that belongs to APSoG, in the top 10
EASILY for best album of the decade . . .
RaY
-Close your eyes and try to remember-
Atrox
>a Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
Ordinarily, I'd say it was laughable too. I've always considered Fates
to be an unremarkable band. Until Pleasant Shade of Gray. Its worth the
price of the album just to hear the incredible drumming. Zonder is a
master at composing interesting grooves that don't get in the way of
the music. He's a drummer's drummer.
toasty_g
their home work., and this ain't no ordinary music now is it?
Brett G.
--
Visit Toasty's Town - your place on the net for... something!
http://www.angelfire.com/la/toastystown/index.html
Mike Patrick <mvpa...@home.com> wrote in message
news:zdyY3.6268$m64....@news.rdc1.il.home.com...
> >Too bad teachers in college don't assign topics such as this. I mean, who
> >the hell wants to write about comparing and contrasting Hamlet and
Oedipus.
> >Why couldn't we write about something that sparks our interest such as
> this?
> >But of course, creativity isn't exactly outwardly encouraged nowadays is
> it?
>
>
Marco van Leeuwen
>I can't take this guy
Yeah, that's me.
> seriously who wrote the review because he gave a
>Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
I could write a scathing remark about how the relentless logic and
immense reasoning skills you displayed in the reply I quote above have
convinced me my rating of "A Pleasant Shade Of Gray" was erroneous,
but I don't think that would do much good. Instead I'll ask you this:
why is it so damn difficult for so many people to just respect someone
else's *opinion*? Just because I like an album or a band you
apparently don't, does that automatically make everything I say, feel
or think worthless?
I don't expect everyone to agree with me, especially since the
appreciation of music is for the most part such a highly *subjective*
affair - in fact, I expect people to disagree with me, for the
discussion's sake -, but your remark does not attest to you having the
patience and common sense necessary to engage in a meaningful
interchange of ideas.
If you want to start a real discussion, that's great - say
something intelligent. It's even fine if you write a post explaining
why you think my positive opinion of APSOG is misguided, as long as
you supply the reader with a properly constructed piece of reasoning.
If you can't muster that, please stay out of this. There's way too
much ignorance on Usenet already.
Thank you.
-Marco van Leeuwen
The Original Irish Bastard
> I can't take this guy seriously who wrote the review because he gave a
> Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
<nod> First thing I did was check out the ratings he had given
other albums, and decided that the likelihood of objective scrutiny was
rather low.
--
*remove the SPAM to e-mail* The Original Irish Bastard
K K I SSS SSS M M Y Y AA SSS SSS
K K I S S M M M M Y Y A A S S
KK I S S M M M Y AAAA S S
K K I S S M M Y A A S S
K K I SSS SSS M M Y A A SSS SSS
Of course, I mean that in only the most gentle, caring, loving,
politically correct sensitive-in-a-90s-guy-way-but-by-no-means-wimpy
hair-band-from-another-age-tribute-album-name way.
Acting President of the Bandwidth Preservation Society
Marco van Leeuwen
Irish Bastard) wrote:
>In alt.music.dream-theater SMH <aw...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>> I can't take this guy seriously who wrote the review because he gave a
>> Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
>
> <nod> First thing I did was check out the ratings he had given
>other albums, and decided that the likelihood of objective scrutiny was
>rather low.
Ahh, how great it is to read such a thoughtful response! Check
elsewhere in this thread for a sort-of rant of mine that's very
appropriate here.
Thanks for enforcing my belief that large portions of the human race
basically consist of turds. You certainly have an appropriate screen
name.
Isn't anyone else bothered by the complete inability of some people to
respect someone else's opinion? Especially in newsgroups that are
supposed to celebrate *progressive* music, that by definition includes
many different influences and directions. And it's not that I'm doing
something completely ridiculous by liking Fates Warning... (if you
have a snotty response to this... don't)
-M. (Yes, I'm very touchy about this - being confronted with stupidity
time and time again will do that to a person. There's way too much of
this crap in the world already. Remember: diversity is wonderful,
malignant dissent is not).
The Original Irish Bastard
> On 20 Nov 1999 00:36:32 GMT, smc...@chat.carletonSP.AMca (The Original
> Irish Bastard) wrote:
>>> I can't take this guy seriously who wrote the review because he gave a
>>> Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
>>
>> <nod> First thing I did was check out the ratings he had given
>>other albums, and decided that the likelihood of objective scrutiny was
>>rather low.
> Thanks for enforcing my belief that large portions of the human race
> basically consist of turds.
[...]
> Isn't anyone else bothered by the complete inability of some people to
> respect someone else's opinion?
Obviously you don't respect my opinion, because you called me a
turd. That makes you a hypocrite.
> Especially in newsgroups that are supposed to celebrate *progressive*
> music,
This newsgroup is for the discussion of Dream Theater, not the
celebration of progressive, oh sorry, *progressive* music.
> -M. (Yes, I'm very touchy about this - being confronted with stupidity
> time and time again will do that to a person.
You reap what you sow, Marco.
The Reverend
Irish Bastard) wrote:
>In alt.music.dream-theater SMH <aw...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>> I can't take this guy seriously who wrote the review because he gave a
>> Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
>
> <nod> First thing I did was check out the ratings he had given
>other albums, and decided that the likelihood of objective scrutiny was
>rather low.
But on some of them I'll agree with him. APSOG is a damn good album.
I don't remember how he rated the others, but they jibed with me. Oh,
and this thread is on A.R-N-R.M.Progressive, not just the DT
newsgroup. PPPthpt.
---
They called me the Reverend when I entered the church unstained
My employers have changed but the name has remained
RMP3:"The goal is to sell albums" ftp://RMP3:prog...@24.4.17.201
The Original Irish Bastard
> On 20 Nov 1999 00:36:32 GMT, smc...@chat.carletonSP.AMca (The Original
> Irish Bastard) wrote:
>>In alt.music.dream-theater SMH <aw...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>> I can't take this guy seriously who wrote the review because he gave a
>>> Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
>>
>> <nod> First thing I did was check out the ratings he had given
>>other albums, and decided that the likelihood of objective scrutiny was
>>rather low.
> But on some of them I'll agree with him. APSOG is a damn good album.
> I don't remember how he rated the others, but they jibed with me. Oh,
> and this thread is on A.R-N-R.M.Progressive, not just the DT
> newsgroup. PPPthpt.
Yeah I can buy a high rating for _APSoG_, but nothing on that list
was rated lower than "80/100", even the _ACoS_ EP. That, to me, says
"worshipper of progressive metal". Which is cool, except that I'm not, so
the review would be pretty worthless for me.
Hope it's all cool.
BTW, Rev, I'm 300 meg into your next CD. Going's been slow lately
though.
Shane Carey
"The Original Irish Bastard" <smc...@chat.carletonSP.AMca> wrote in message
news:814qeg$na9$2...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca...
> In alt.music.dream-theater SMH <aw...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> > I can't take this guy seriously who wrote the review because he gave a
> > Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
>
> <nod> First thing I did was check out the ratings he had given
> other albums, and decided that the likelihood of objective scrutiny was
> rather low.
Please don't confuse objectivity with taste. If you don't agree with his
opinions on those other albums, then perhaps you're less likely to agree
with his opinion on this one, but that doesn't mean that the opinion
deserves derision. That it is of no value to you does not mean that it was
formed out of ignorance, and you do a great injustice to the amount of time
and thought he put into his essay to treat it as such.
-shane
Shane Carey
celebrated for being more than just your average rock and roll (in one way
or another). Is it not possible that a band could, in fact, produce the
next great piece of literature? If it happened, it probably would not
attain the stature it deserved, simply because yours is the prevailing
attitude toward rock and roll.
I don't agree with the disparaging remarks toward the classics, but I don't
think your response does much to advance the human condition, either.
-shane
"Mike Patrick" <mvpa...@home.com> wrote in message
news:zdyY3.6268$m64....@news.rdc1.il.home.com...
> >Too bad teachers in college don't assign topics such as this. I mean, who
> >the hell wants to write about comparing and contrasting Hamlet and
Oedipus.
> >Why couldn't we write about something that sparks our interest such as
> this?
> >But of course, creativity isn't exactly outwardly encouraged nowadays is
> it?
>
>
Marco van Leeuwen
Irish Bastard) wrote:
>In alt.music.dream-theater Marco van Leeuwen <over...@caiw.nl> wrote:
>> On 20 Nov 1999 00:36:32 GMT, smc...@chat.carletonSP.AMca (The Original
>> Irish Bastard) wrote:
>
>>>> I can't take this guy seriously who wrote the review because he gave a
>>>> Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
>>>
>>> <nod> First thing I did was check out the ratings he had given
>>>other albums, and decided that the likelihood of objective scrutiny was
>>>rather low.
>
>> Thanks for enforcing my belief that large portions of the human race
>> basically consist of turds.
>[...]
>> Isn't anyone else bothered by the complete inability of some people to
>> respect someone else's opinion?
>
> Obviously you don't respect my opinion, because you called me a
>turd. That makes you a hypocrite.
Defending myself from a trollish remark is hypocritical? You didn't
just state your opinion, you stated your opinion in a way that was
disparaging to me. A politely and intelligently worded opinion is
indeed worthy of being respected, but when you spout off insults based
on the fact your opinion differs from someone else's, you forfeit the
right to being respected. In my original post, I did nothing to elicit
the type of response you apparently felt compelled to write. My
response to your insult was provoked. Please tell me you understand
the difference...
In another post in this thread you call me a worshipper of prog metal,
because none of the ratings of the albums I mention are below 80. Does
a teacher worship a student if s/he gives him/her a lot of good
grades? Didn't it occur to you that I only wanted to mention the
really good albums? It would make no sense for me to recommend an
album I didn't like. Does it make you feel any better if I say I think
"You Not Me" is an awful song? I really don't care for a good-sized
chunk of Queensryche's catalogue, and Shadow Gallery have a tendency
to be overly syruppy. I just happen to really like much of what Dream
Theater and Fates Warning have done. If you had taken the trouble of
reading the things I wrote you would have seen I wasn't uncritical or
overly fanboy-ish at all: for instance, I explicitly state DT would
probably be better if they had another vocalist. However, I tried to
present this opinion of mine in a way that was not insulting to people
who do like LaBrie's singing.
Are we done now? We don't need another flame war.
-Marco van Leeuwen.
Mike Patrick
Since I'm feeling a little less caustic now...I certainly do listen to
progressive music for the very reason that it IS about twelve cuts above
most everything else out there, at least to my ears. And you're absolutely
correct - because of its context, even if a piece of this type of music was
executed beyond any and all possible criticism, it STILL wouldn't get the
recognition it deserved. Because it's music, because it's ROCK music,
etc...
Still, (and my main point) if you're in school, you might want to remember
that you're dealing, by and large, with academicians who have twice the
education you do. They've worked incredibly hard to get where they are.
They've pretty much dedicated their lives to topics you (not you, Shane -
that's a general 'you') deem 'boring' and 'insignificant'. Under those
circumstances, I'm not about to blame a teacher if they are a little
insulted (or even just befuddled) when a student of theirs chooses to
analyze a rock album. I'm not saying that it's 100% right, but that's the
way it is. You go along to get along, you know? You either play the game,
or you don't.
A someone with a rabid love of the classics, I can attest to the fact that
they don't bite...
Enjoy your music. Spread the word. Just not in the classroom.
Mike
Shane Carey wrote in message ...
>This seems kind of an incongruous response from a fan of a genre that is
>celebrated for being more than just your average rock and roll (in one way
>or another). Is it not possible that a band could, in fact, produce the
>next great piece of literature? If it happened, it probably would not
>attain the stature it deserved, simply because yours is the prevailing
>attitude toward rock and roll.
>
>I don't agree with the disparaging remarks toward the classics, but I don't
>think your response does much to advance the human condition, either.
>-shane
>
>"Mike Patrick" <mvpa...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:zdyY3.6268$m64....@news.rdc1.il.home.com...
>> >Too bad teachers in college don't assign topics such as this. I mean,
who
>> >the hell wants to write about comparing and contrasting Hamlet and
>Oedipus.
>> >Why couldn't we write about something that sparks our interest such as
>> this?
>> >But of course, creativity isn't exactly outwardly encouraged nowadays is
>> it?
>>
>>
The Original Irish Bastard
> On 20 Nov 1999 18:57:51 GMT, smc...@chat.carletonSP.AMca (The Original
> Irish Bastard) wrote:
> Defending myself from a trollish remark is hypocritical?
A troll is a non-serious post meant to get a reaction. For
example, if I posted "DT sucks. Rage Against the Machine roolz." that
would be a troll.
I responded to you seriously. I simply stated that I didn't find
your review credible, and I explained why. We don't have compatible
tastes. Your continued vitriolic outbursts paint you in a bad light, not
me.
> In another post in this thread you call me a worshipper of prog metal,
> because none of the ratings of the albums I mention are below 80. Does
> a teacher worship a student if s/he gives him/her a lot of good
> grades?
A student is generally evaluated on objective criteria, such as
test scores. A music album is evaluated on subjective criteria, such as
"Do I like it". Therefore your analogy is false.
"worshipper" may have been an exaggeration, but when the lowest
rating you have, on one of DT's crappier efforts, is an 82, what else am I
supposed to conclude? That you are critical of DT but every release just
happens to be awesome? Sorry, I own too much of their material (15+
releases counting boots) to not know that isn't the case.
> Didn't it occur to you that I only wanted to mention the
> really good albums?
That would still makes your reviewing useless, Marco. There are
millions of releases out there. For anything you don't review, I'm at a
loss at to whether it's simply because you a) haven't heard it or b) don't
like it.
If your only reviews are glowing, you're not much use as a
reviewer, for this reason. For all the reader knows, you like everything
you hear. How, then, can they use your review for anything other than
"seeing how it reinforces their prejudices", as someone in another
newsgroup said. They certainly couldn't use it to decide if they want to
buy the album or not. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but too bad.
You seem like a strong writer, but if your reviews can't actually be
useful to people who don't have the album, are you a strong reviewer?
> Are we done now? We don't need another flame war.
You're right, we don't. Referring to me as a "turd" is not the
best way to practice what you preach.
The Original Irish Bastard
> "The Original Irish Bastard" <smc...@chat.carletonSP.AMca> wrote in message
> news:814qeg$na9$2...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca...
>> > I can't take this guy seriously who wrote the review because he gave a
>> > Fates Warning album a 100/100. did he not? that's laughable...
>>
>> <nod> First thing I did was check out the ratings he had given
>> other albums, and decided that the likelihood of objective scrutiny was
>> rather low.
> Please don't confuse objectivity with taste. If you don't agree with his
> opinions on those other albums, then perhaps you're less likely to agree
> with his opinion on this one, but that doesn't mean that the opinion
> deserves derision.
Er, actually it was aw...@rocketmail.com who said his review was
"laughable". I only said that it wouldn't have any use for me.
Assuming Marco made the same reading mistake, maybe you guys could
redirect the firearms at the right target? :)
The Reverend
Irish Bastard) wrote:
> Yeah I can buy a high rating for _APSoG_, but nothing on that list
>was rated lower than "80/100", even the _ACoS_ EP.
Hey! I like ACOS! Granted the rest of the album is OK, but it's an
EP. I bought it for ACoS. I rate that pretty damn high.
> BTW, Rev, I'm 300 meg into your next CD. Going's been slow lately
>though.
Woo-hoo! Kick ass. :) Can't wait for it. I need to get a
plain-jane CD, since I read that reading Dirty CDs on a CD-R can ruin
the CD-R.
Spawn
> This seems kind of an incongruous response from a fan of a genre that is
> celebrated for being more than just your average rock and roll (in one way
> or another). Is it not possible that a band could, in fact, produce the
> next great piece of literature? If it happened, it probably would not
> attain the stature it deserved, simply because yours is the prevailing
> attitude toward rock and roll.
It wouldn't matter. "Great Literature" is generally not recognised for
many, many years. William Blake was completely unknown for his poetry in
his lifetime, and now he is considered as one oof the premier artistic
minds of the romantic period, alongside those who WERE selling at the
time, like Wordsworth and Coleridge (who were, it must be added, similarly
looked down upon by the literary establishment)... Shakespeare, as it has
been said many times nearly everywhere, was considered to be a "populist"
playwright. Most of the Bearded Old White Heterosexual Males who decide
these things have trouble putting anything on a list of "Modern
classics" past William Faulkner. I'd imagine that in a couple of hundred
years, rock music will have created several works which are considered to
be "great works", if indeed the dominant mindset still values the idea of
"great works". And its likely as hell that those "Great Works" of rock
will be anything but the ones that one would expect.
*shrug*
As always, I remain...
Spawn.
> I don't agree with the disparaging remarks toward the classics, but I don't
> think your response does much to advance the human condition, either.
> -shane
>
> "Mike Patrick" <mvpa...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:zdyY3.6268$m64....@news.rdc1.il.home.com...
> > >Too bad teachers in college don't assign topics such as this. I mean, who
> > >the hell wants to write about comparing and contrasting Hamlet and
> Oedipus.
> > >Why couldn't we write about something that sparks our interest such as
> > this?
> > >But of course, creativity isn't exactly outwardly encouraged nowadays is
> > it?
> >
> >
> > Yes, God forbid you'd be exposed to a 'classical' education. The
> meticulous
> > dissection of rock albums is much more meaningful and greatly advances the
> > human condition.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
"Yes...fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is
imprisoned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape? The
moneylenders, the know-nothings, the authoritarians have us all in prison;
if we value the freedom of the mind and soul, if we're partisans of
liberty, then its our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people
with us as we can!"
- Prof. J.R.R. Tolkien.