Free blowing clarinet with more sound ?
David Burckhardt
I'm pretty new to this NG, coming from the saxophone corner. About 2 years
ago, I picked-up my clarinet after about 15 years of sax only. You can
imagine the fight to get some sound out of it.
I'm now doing not to bad, but I'm wondering if and where (which brand,
model, etc..) I can find a horn which has more sound, and maybe less
resistance, in one word, which feels more like a soprano sax.
I'm currently playing a Buffet-Crampon B20, which, as far as I remember, was
the entry-level wood Buffet back in the mid Seventies.
My mp is a Vandoren 5JB.
The horn is intended to be used in jazz settings only, including
jam-sessions....
Thanks
db
Hans Christian Dörrscheidt
the different physical characteristics of clarinets as opposed to e.g. a
soprano saxophone. The clarinet has a cylindrical bore, whereas the soprano
(same for all other saxes) has a conical bore, which shows in the different
reactions to wind that's being blow through the horn. (Greater resistance in
clarinets.)
As far as my experience goes, you'll never be able to produce a tone on the
clarinet that has a neat quality (in a fairly classical sense, or like Eddie
Daniels, as opposed to old timers like Edmond Hall) and is as projecting as
a soprano sax. (If you listen closely to Eddie Daniels recordings, you will
notice how much he seems to depend on microphone work for his fluid sound.)
So the only way is a) to work on a proper mpc/clarinet combination and b)
learn to live with the natural restraints of that.
I used to play a Vandoren crystal mpc (A3), which I can't play anymore (i.e.
longer than a ballad chorus) because my embouchure just can't cope with it.
At the moment I am playing a Vandoren B45 on my Buffet Festival clarinet,
which gives me the sound I want, together with a decent volume label.
Remember, the clarinet is not a saxophone, and it's not played the same way.
The embouchure has to be tighter (unless you want to sound like Jimmy
Giuffre) and it just can't be as "free-wheeling" as a soprano sax.
Good luck anyway!
HCD
Moose
and experimented with a 5JB mouthpiece (loads of volume but difficult to
produce a sweet tone), and changed to the B45. I too am noticing more
resistance than I can remember having to deal with when I was playing
regularly (on a student clarinet) over 10 years ago. But I think it must be
me. I am getting used to it now after much regular practice.
My dillema now is that I can't seem to get a sweet and warm sound on the top
register, which I know I used to be able to do with my old set up. Eddie
Daniels manages this with ease, and I'd like to know exactly what his set up
is. (of course most of it has to do with his own ability - never mind the
equipment). I believe he plays a Leblanc Concerto, but what mouthpiece does
he use? Does anyone know?
Regards
Tim Huskisson
"David Burckhardt" <dburc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3b7f7dbb$1...@news.bluewin.ch...
David Burckhardt
I'm well aware of the intrinsic difference between the clarinet and the
saxophone's acoustics.
I started on clarinet, and it took me enough time to loosen-up and to really
blow when I switched to the saxophone.
I still believe there might be horns more open and free blowing than mine,
and I was hoping someone could give me some ideas... (larger bore,
gold-plated, mink-skin pads... or whatever..)
On the other hand, to make it clear: I won't be able to spend the n hours
per day over n years to catch-up Eddie Daniels' skills... and I'm also
aware of that ! ;-)
"Moose" <mo...@home.com> wrote in message
news:9lobgh$hll$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Lelia Loban
>and I was hoping someone could give me some ideas... (larger bore,
>gold-plated, mink-skin pads... or whatever..)
Try out some Selmer clarinets, with Selmer or Hite mouthpieces. Selmers have a
reputation for being free-blowing, with a big, bold tone that blends well with
a jazz band sound (but less well with a classical orchestra). The plastic Hite
Premiere mouthpiece is inexpensive and sold for students, but it's well-made,
and what makes it good for beginners also makes it excellent for jazz, IMHO:
It's extremely free-blowing. I own one and I like it a lot for jazz and pop.
I play sax, too, btw, though I played clarinet first. I don't think it's
possible to find any clarinet that's as free-blowing as a sax, but if you can
get past the gag-reflex prejudice against plastic Selmer Bundies, the more
recent ones (made after about 1980) can be much better than their reputation,
IMHO (play a few, until you find a decent one), and about as free-blowing as
you can get.
Lelia
Please delete TOSSPAM from my address to reply by e-mail.
Razzpy
mouthpiece.
Lelia mentioned Selmer - which I hightly second. I've used a Selmer 9R for
over 30 years and would love to get my hands on a 10G. The 10G was made
primarily with the Jazz player in mind. Try it out - you will be impressed.
Rich R.
Mark Charette
player was in mind at the time.
Mark Char...@sneezy.org (who, by the way, plays on a 10G)
"Razzpy" <raz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010820005232...@mb-fx.aol.com...
Stephen Howard
See if you can track down a clarinet made by Patricola ( Italy ).
A client of mine bought one of his rosewood models and when he brought
it in for me to give it the once-over I was astonished at how free
blowing it was.
I'm not the only one either - he agreed to let a couple of my other
clients try the instrument out, they also commented on it's ease of
blowing.
I believe that Patricole has a web site - but I can't find the address
for it. Have a search, see what you can find.
Regards,
--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
Emails to: shwoodwind{who is at}gmx{dot}co{dot}uk
Hans Christian Dörrscheidt
"Moose" <mo...@home.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:9lobgh$hll$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Razzpy
WRONG AGAIN - AS USUAL.....
Rich R.
JMcAulay
<sees...@email.uk> wrote:
>See if you can track down a clarinet made by Patricola ( Italy ).
>A client of mine bought one of his rosewood models and when he brought
>it in for me to give it the once-over I was astonished at how free
>blowing it was.
>I'm not the only one either - he agreed to let a couple of my other
>clients try the instrument out, they also commented on it's ease of
>blowing.
>
>I believe that Patricole has a web site - but I can't find the address
>for it. Have a search, see what you can find.
Hi, Stephen and all:
Patricola is at <www.patricola.it>. This site gives about as much
information as is found in their clarinet brochure, which is not an
enormous amount. Of course, no brochure can tell you how the things
will play, anyway.
Your comment is not the first I have seen regarding the easy blowing
of the Patricola instruments. One poster (either here or on sneezy,
can't remember) commented similarly regarding ease of blowing, adding
"if you can find one."
Sheep that I am, I tried to find one. In late June, I emailed every
Patricola dealer in the US, as well as the factory, asking for price
and delivery quotes on the three different models that might interest
me, noting that I would actually be interested in buying only a single
instrument. Results of this exercise were curious, at best. The
factory mailed their brochure straightaway, with a letter advising
that they do not sell direct, and I should contact their dealers. By
that time, of course, I already had.
As for those dealers: One offered me their catalog (which I have yet
to receive); they also said I could telephone them regarding any
specific information needed. Evidently, the fact that I had already
requested specific information by email was lost on them, or perhaps
they find great mojo in using the telephone. One dealer mailed their
catalog. One (after several days) emailed a price quotation on a
particular Patricola instrument they had in stock. The remaining
dealer declined to offer any price information on Patricola
instruments at all, advising that I should not select a professional
quality instrument based on price considerations; the next sentence
offered a competing instrument at a substantial discount.
So, although many people do say Patricola clarinets blow quite freely,
I may never know, as I have yet to get my desired information. Source
information is what I wanted first, then to try a few, if at all
possible. I guess the future just doesn't hold that eventuality.
Hey, fratelli Patricola, are you reading this??? Somehow, I believe
you could find much better ways to market your product in the USA.
Perhaps it is not at all meaningful, but it does seem a bit odd that I
have yet to know of a used Patricola clarinet for sale. Should anyone
be aware of one, please let me know.
Regards,
John
Moose
> Visit www.eddiedanielsclarinet.com for details on his setup.
Mark Charette
"...
Anthony Gigliotti, clarinet, studied at the Curtis Institute and was
principal clarinet of the Philadelphia Orchestra for 47 years until his
retirement. He was also a founding member of the Philadelphia Woodwind
Quintet and has participated in the Newport Chamber Music Festival and
International Music Festival (Valencia, Spain). His consulting work for the
Selmer Instrument Company resulted in the design of the Selmer Series 10G
clarinet. Gigliotti is a faculty member at the Curtis Institute and Temple
University and former faculty, Grand Teton Orchestral Seminar.
..."
From Clark Fobes, who's more of a historian than you or I:
"...
The clarinet inherently has an aberrant scale and choices are made by
manufacturers in how to deal with these idiosyncracies and preserve a
good sound. Adam Pease brought up some very pertinent points about the
tuning of his Selmer series 9 clarinet. The problems he expressed are
exactly those that Selmer chose in the design of the Selmer 9. The
Selmer philosophy up to that point was to use a large diameter tone
hole with no undercutting.(And, I believe, an almost purely cylindrical
bore). The 9* was a move toward reducing tone hole diameters in some
areas and introducing undercutting. The Selmer series 10 was a radical
move toward a polycylindrical design. The 10G was the result of work
with Anthony Gigliotti and a move even closer to the Buffet design.
..."
Mark C.
"Razzpy" <raz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010820095655...@mb-fq.aol.com...
Mark Charette
"
...
The 10-G went through several incarnations, and it's hard to say what
France made and what was then altered in Elkhart.
As I understand it, the 10-G was to be a copy of Gigliotti's clarinet
(Buffet) which Moennig had worked on considerably.
The only problem with this, is that it was a Pre-R-13, large bore Buffet.
Whether that is true or not, the reality is that the 10-G's from the 60 and
70's had a larger central bore than the R-13. The original R-13 being
14.65 or thereabouts, and the 10-G being 14.85.
Now the enlargement of the bore of 14.85 causes one frustrating and
uncorrectable problem in those particular 10-G's: right hand shapness in
the low register; very sharp low "A", Bb, B and even C; virtually
impossible to play in tune with a piano, though prehaps good enough to
slide by the vagaries of orchestral pitch.
Subjectively speaking, I played some 10-G's that had attractive tones,
played over the middle break better than most R-13's (but not the
upper.....it was just as uneven!), had better tone color in the upper
clarion.........but the sharpness of the right hand low register made them
useless to me....especially since 95% of the playing I did was chamber
music and with piano.
..."
And from Alvin Swiney, a well-respected cohort of Hans Moennig:
"...
Long before the Selmer10-G was ever conceived Hans Moennig was
Working on Anthony Gigliotti's Buffet R-13 clarinet. Mr. Moennig even
credits him with the invention of the Hard rubber Barrel insert, a sleeve
use
to stabilize the internal barrel dimensions. As a matter of fact Hans
Moennig personally told me the 10-G was a copy of the Moennig-Buffet R-13.
Since Mr. Gigliotti's father had been one of Mr. Moennig's first customers
when
he opened his shop in 1926, Mr. Moennig knew Tony as a child and
repaired clarinets for him throughout his playing career. Later another
Moennig
repair student by the name of Mark Jacobi took over the clarinet repairs.
Mark C.
"Razzpy" <raz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010820095655...@mb-fq.aol.com...
Rich R.
Much better explanation. The 10G was also followed with two other
versions 10W and (I believe) 10S - Not sure about the letter. The 10G
works well with the Jazz format for the reasons you stated in your
response. The 10W and 10S, less so. Note I've played on both the 10G
(Mid-70s version) and the 10W (Probably from around then as well -
played with it two-three years ago, could not get it at a reasonable
price).
The problems with the Series 9 were really numerous and it was
accepted at the time (50s or such) that it was necessary to lip
up/down to compensate for the tone problems. The 9R that I own has
some corrections made as Selmer began to upgrade the clarinet to
improve it's tonal response. It is better than say an 9M or earlier.
It still reflects the problems as you indicated in your article.
The 10 series was an attempt to correct the problems (as you
indicated) and they were very succesful (IMHO) in doing so. However,
the Current 10Gs are NOT the same as the 70/80s version and I assume
that the 10W and 10S went away - as they are no longer offered in the
Selmer Catalog. The newer 10Gs play a bit different and I prefer the
older 10Gs for that reason. The newer 10Gs are better through out the
range than the older ones (tone) - your article (response) explains
why.
What I objected to is that they were a copy of ... Not true at all.
Secondly the (older) 10G was much better responsive to Jazz styling
than the Buffet (same era). Two very different instruments - and why
I said what I did! The last 10G I played was a late 80s version and
it appears (From a very short play) to be more "classical" than the
older versions. However, I was still able to play around with it,
though had to work differently that I would with my 9R. At that time
I was using the VanDoren B-45. May have been much different with a
more open mouthpiece - Will try that whan I get another chance.
Selmer dealers in Phoenix are scarce and the 10G is impossible to get
a hold of from a dealer.
Probably should not have been so harsh in my response - for that I do
apologise - however it did result in a much more reasoned response.
For that and the time it took - very appreciative.
Rich R.
David Burckhardt
I wasn't expecting so much !
And, hey ! I never heard of Patricola before, and the factory is only 3
hours drive from my home !
I'm gonna give it a try, and let you know.
Regards
db
"JMcAulay" <jo...@mcaulay.net> wrote in message
news:3b811074...@news.qnet.com...
Mark Charette
"Rich R." <Raz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:13c9ed69.01082...@posting.google.com...
> What I objected to is that they were a copy of ... Not true at all.
Then take your argument to Alvin Swiney and Tom Ridenour. I trust what they
tell me a heck of a lot more than I trust what you've got to say - Swiney
was physically present when Gigliotti worked with Selmer to copy his Buffet.
Mark C.
Mark Charette
> Probably should not have been so harsh in my response - for that I do
> apologise - however it did result in a much more reasoned response.
Huh? All I said was
"The 10G was modeled after Gigliotti's Buffet - I don't really think the
jazz player was in mind at the time."
I don't think that was an :"unreasonable" response and in fact is quite true
in all respects. You just seem to have some sort of push-button at the
ready.
Mark C.
JMcAulay
<dburc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Thanks for all the info !
>I wasn't expecting so much !
>And, hey ! I never heard of Patricola before, and the factory is only 3
>hours drive from my home !
>I'm gonna give it a try, and let you know.
David, if I lived anywhere within a few hours of Castelnuovo Scrivia,
I'd have been there by now. :) Even speaking sub-mediocre Italian.
As you no doubt understand, the only negative I've found so far is
that no one seems to be very interested in selling one of the things.
But I know so little. So please do offer a report on what you find.
Regards,
John
Razzpy
Arrgh.
I've read those articles you quoted before and have them in my papers. Note
that Ridenour said Closer to a Buffet.
Closer than what - A series 9? To be sure that is a very safe statement to
make. IT DOES NOT MAKE IT A COPY!!!!!!!!
And yes "Swiney
was physically present when Gigliotti worked with Selmer .....". But to make a
horn (Selmer) closer to that acceptable by the classical community. To say it
was a copy is akin to saying that the Vito is a copy of the Buffet.....Hey,
they are all clarinets and all look alike - must be a copy of a Buffet. (yeah,
right)
Lets just say that your interpretation of the facts are different than mine and
leave it there.
Rich R.