Byrds/Beach Boys

Laskodesign

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Jan 31, 2003, 11:22:33 AM1/31/03

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Not trying to cause trouble, but solely for discussion sake...

Last night I was introduced to a guy who's a Beach Boys fanatic. Our mutual
friends made the mistake of mentioning that I'm a Byrds fanatic (this is almost
always a foolish thing to do). BB Fan feels compelled to launch into a spiel
about how the Byrds were "alright", but that the Beach Boys were a far more
influential group. I thought he was a dope anyway, so I let it go.

But it got me to thinking, just who did the Beach Boys influence (Paul
McCartney's Sgt. Pepper/Pet Sounds thing aside)? I know many musicians admire
Brian Wilson. I know that the Beach Boys sold many more records than the Byrds
did. While I'm not a huge Beach Boys fan, I recognize that their music is good
stuff.

But I can name a bunch of groups who were strongly influenced by the Byrds (by
their own admission, in fact), and, at times, have attempted to sound like the
Byrds. Even aside from the Ric-12 jangle stuff, a strong case can be made that
the whole alt.country phenom is a result of the Byrds "Sweetheart..."
influence.

So, whom have the Beach Boys influenced musically? Where are these
multi-harmony, Spectorish-production sounding bands? Where is all this
influence?

I'm not trying to make a case that the Byrds were "better" than the Beach Boys.
It's just that I hear a lot more of the Byrds musical influence among other
groups than I hear from the Beach Boys.

Beach Boy fans, why am I wrong?

--Steve

JuncoX

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Jan 31, 2003, 12:09:55 PM1/31/03

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>Last night I was introduced to a guy who's a Beach Boys fanatic. Our mutual
>friends made the mistake of mentioning that I'm a Byrds fanatic (this is
>almost
>always a foolish thing to do).

Funny you should mention that. I'm kind of a Beach Boys fanatic myself; I
have all of their original LPs on CD plus a handful of Brian Wilson solo
albums. But then I also have all of the original Byrds LPs plus a couple of
Roger McGuinn CDs and the first McGuinn-Clark-Hillman LP.
Now to be honest I don't really consider "influence" to be all that
important though it's obviously a nice thing to have. For example I love the
Chicago LPs w/ Terry Kath as well as alot of Yes LPs though goodness knows you
don't exactly feel either of those bands' influence in the music industry
today. The kind of music they make will probably retire with the bands
themselves.
I like the Beach Boys and the Byrds for almost entirely different reasons. I
like the Beach Boys for their great melodies and complex harmonies. I got into
the Byrds for, well, Rog's chiming rickenbacker and their driving rhythm
section, but also for the sheer wealth of styles and genres they covered
throughout their initial run (1964-1973 I guess). I find their later LPs like
UNTITLED, BYRDMANIAX and FARTHER ALONG particularly fascinating.
Now you could argue the Byrds Vs. the Kinks or the Byrds Vs. the Beatles
(Though I think it's safe to say the Beatles tend to come out on top anyway.).
You could argue the Byrds Vs. the Lovin' Spoonful. You would definitely get a
very lively discussion going. But personally I'm just glad to have the recorded
output of these great bands to enjoy.
,Peter R.

Dauber

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Jan 31, 2003, 1:05:02 PM1/31/03

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Waaaaay back on 31-Jan-03 11:22:33, Laskodesign said this about Byrds/Beach Boys:

>So, whom have the Beach Boys influenced musically? Where are these
>multi-harmony, Spectorish-production sounding bands? Where is all this
>influence?

REM ["At My Most Beautiful," for example, although I'm sure they're MUCH more Byrds-influenced!] , B52's [the closing track on Cosmic Thing...I was just listening to it a couple of hours ago and its title escapes me!], The Wondermints, Jeffrey Foskett [obviously! :) ], Jan'n'Dean, all the little surf'n'car groups like Ronnie and the Daytonas, etc...and Roger himself -- the song "Beach Ball," remember? :) And "Draggin'"....and "Ding Dang"....

>I'm not trying to make a case that the Byrds were "better" than the Beach
>Boys. It's just that I hear a lot more of the Byrds musical influence among
>other groups than I hear from the Beach Boys.

>Beach Boy fans, why am I wrong?

I don't think you're wrong at all...there's no right or wrong answer to your position....

BTW -- www.banana-and-louie.org -- I have a list of "evidence" that the Beach Boys and Byrds are connected in a strange "Kennedy-Lincoln" sort of way....it's not 100% accurate [a few have e-mailed me with some corrections that I've yet to make], and some of it is REALLY pushing it [like the "Chestnut Mare" thing], but...

--
dau...@wallnet.com * ICQ: 28677921 * www.wallnet.com/~dauber

JuncoX

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Jan 31, 2003, 4:24:14 PM1/31/03

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>>So, whom have the Beach Boys influenced musically? Where are these
>>multi-harmony, Spectorish-production sounding bands?

That last Red Hot Chili Peppers CD BY THE WAY (2002) had some neat Beach
Boys style harmonies on a song or two. Everclear have displayed some deliberate
Beach Boys style harmonies. The Hollies (listen to "I Can't Let Go" or any
number of their Graham Nash era hits), ELO (Listen to "Mr. Blue Sky."), the
Cowsills (Listen to "Poor Baby.")...okay maybe I'm not picking the hippest
bands here, but wherever you hear full multi-part harmonies on a rock song
there is a definite Brian Wilson/ Beach Boys influence.
,Peter R.

Stephen MacDougall

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Jan 31, 2003, 6:42:46 PM1/31/03

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"Laskodesign" <lasko...@aol.com> wrote

> So, whom have the Beach Boys influenced musically? Where
> are these multi-harmony, Spectorish-production sounding bands?
> Where is all this influence?

Fleetwood Mac's Lindsey Buckingham comes to mind.

DTB

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Jan 31, 2003, 6:31:37 PM1/31/03

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"JuncoX" <jun...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030131162414...@mb-cu.aol.com...

"I Can't Let Go" is nearly perfect pop. You listen to it and almost
immediately want to hear it again. It's too bad that the single as an art
form is nearly dead, because alot of those 2:30 gems were just fantastic.
It wasn't a high concept by any means, but there were some great moments. I
loved "5 O'Clock World", "Western Union", and "Paperback Writer"
particularly. Then there was also "Neon Rainbow" by the Box Tops which had
a great fade out guitar line in much the same way that "Mr. Tambourine Man"
had that great bass fade. The musicians and singers on all those songs were
great, but you had to believe that the writers and producers were really the
difference between a song and a hit song.

TomThunder

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Feb 1, 2003, 4:42:16 AM2/1/03

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>lasko...@aol.com (Laskodesign)
writes: >BB Fan feels compelled to launch into a spiel>about how the Byrds were

"alright", but that the Beach Boys were a far more>influential group. I thought
he was a dope anyway, so I let it go.>

Both groups have been influential, although I think The Byrds have had a
longer-lived
and more diverse (given the different genres they spawned or were involved in)
influence.

>I'm not a huge Beach Boys fan, I recognize that their music is good
>stuff.

There are many nuggets to be found buried in Beach Boy albums, and even more,
imvho, in Brian Wilson's outside productions for The Honey's, Jan & Dean, Bob &
Sheri, The Castells, Glen Campbell, et.al

>But I can name a bunch of groups who were strongly influenced by the Byrds
>(by>their own admission, in fact), and, at times, have attempted to sound like
>the>Byrds

Sure. But there are many groups that have used the BB's sound.

>So, whom have the Beach Boys influenced musically? Where are these
>multi-harmony, Spectorish-production sounding bands? Where is all this
>influence?

Jan & Dean, Lindsey Buckingham, Walter Egan, Roger McGuinn, etc.
And the BB's went beyond Spector with productions like 'Good Vibrations' and
'Heroes and Villans'. I can't think of lots of examples at this late hour, but
the echoplexed (tape delayed) break in the 45 rpm version of The Cryan Shames
'It Could Be Were In Love' owes its inspiration to 'GV'.

For the uninitiated, there are some great 2-fer CD's (that is two albums on one
CD),
I was listening to 'Smiley Smile' / 'Wild Honey' the other day. Most of these
include bonus tracks. Only 'Beach Boys Party' and 'Stack-O-Tracks' are not
proper releases, the former cut by the group while drunk in the studio to
fulfill their onerous contract calling for 3 albums a year, as oppossed to The
Byrds 2, and the latter made up of backing tracks to numerous songs,
enlightening in its own right and a handy tape to practice vocalizing to...Tom

TomThunder

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Feb 1, 2003, 4:50:26 AM2/1/03

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>jun...@aol.com (JuncoX)

>For example I love the

>Chicago LPs w/ Terry Kath...

Oh yeah, baby...I love the last one with Terry...what was it 'XI', with
'Mississippi
Delta City Blues' and 'Taking It on Uptown'.

> Now you could argue the Byrds Vs. the Kinks or the Byrds Vs. the Beatles
>(Though I think it's safe to say the Beatles tend to come out on top
>anyway.)

There are times when I would put The Kinks or Byrds on 'the top', depending on
my mood or what I'm listening to...BTW my fave Kinks tracks are 'Waterloo
Sunset', 'Autumn Almanac', 'Death of A Clown', 'Lola', 'Tired of Waiting', 'Set
Me Free', 'Sunny Afternoon'...whoa...getting quite a list there...Tom

TomThunder

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Feb 1, 2003, 4:54:42 AM2/1/03

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> jun...@aol.com (JuncoX)
quotes: >>>So, whom have the Beach Boys influenced musically? Where are

these>>>multi-harmony, Spectorish-production sounding bands?

Peter Noone was talking about the vocal backgrounds to 'I'm Into Something
Good' and said it was 'A California thing, a tip to the Beach Boys'. I also
just remembered the background to David Johansen's 'Donna', his almost-hit from
his debut album...as well as the back-ups to 'Someday, Someway' by both
Marshall Crenshaw and Robert Gordon, the latter the cover version...Tom

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Feb 2, 2003, 3:19:27 PM2/2/03

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Beach Boy influenced:

- Surf Era:

There are loads of Surf groups but it's debateable whether the BB influenced
them, except the obvious exceptions where the BB wrote the song, like Jan &
Dean.

- Introspective Era:

The real influence came post surf when the reflective songs started to
appear from Today, thru Summer Nights to Pet Sounds and Smile

The Ivy League
The Flowerpot Men
The Californians
Billy Nichols
Andrew Loog Oldham
dozens of Rubble/British Psych Trip groups
The Left Banke (eg Dark Is The Bark)
Sagittarius/Millenium et al
The Association

Consider this: would Arthur Lee have put strings on Forever Changes if Pet
Sounds hadn't occurred. Pet Sounds preceded Elenor Rigby which in turn
instigated lots of Baroque pop stuff such as the Left Banke.

- Sand Pit Era thru to Nostalgia Circuit.

You can hear songs like Darlin' in much of American MOR rock such as
Fleetwood Mac/Chicago etc. However the moment had past.

To be honest, this sort of thing is very hard to prove. The first two Folk
Rock groups were the Searchers and the Beau Brummels, yet no one would ever
quote them as influencial. The look and the style of the Beatles was far
more influencial than the music for the simple reason that the Beatles were
very hard to ape. It is much easier to sound like the Byrds with their
trademark jingle jangle sound than the Beatles, who were much more eclectic.
Or to contradict myself, who were Crosby Stills and Nash influenced by: was
it the harmonies of The Byrds, The Beatles or The Beach Boys?

"Laskodesign" <lasko...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030131112233...@mb-mj.aol.com...

TomThunder

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Feb 3, 2003, 3:48:21 AM2/3/03

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>"Yeti" f...@cs.com
writes: >To be honest, this sort of thing is very hard to prove. The first two

Folk
>Rock groups were the Searchers and the Beau Brummels, yet no one would ever
>quote them as influencial.

I wouldn't call either group a 'folk-rock' group, as the Searchers covering
folk music was limited to a reading of 'Malvina Reynolds 'Look What They've
Done To The Rain'. As for the Beau Brummels, I'd say they were folk influenced,
but didn't cover folk music during their heyday, not the Ron Elliots and Sal
Valentino's songs weren't compelling. They were both talented pop-rock acts,
imvho...Tom

TomThunder

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Feb 3, 2003, 3:52:00 AM2/3/03

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>"Can Altinbay" calt...@earthlink.net
writes: >Beach Boys influence - The Association? Sagittarius? (Amazing
Byrds>connection here, too.)

I always loved the arrangement to 'Along Comes Mary'...excellent to this
day...Tom

BigStar303

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Feb 3, 2003, 9:31:22 AM2/3/03

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Yeti wrote:

<< The first two Folk
Rock groups were the Searchers and the Beau Brummels, yet no one would ever
quote them as influencial. >>

Except maybe The Byrds themselves! Crosby and (I believe) McGuinn have both
openly admitted The Searchers' influence on both The Byrds' jangle and their
harmonies.

Oddly, McGuinn is dismissive of The Beau Brummels, and I have to believe that
it's based totally upon seeing them live and not being familiar with the body
of their recorded work -- which is truly quality stuff at virtually every turn.
His comment is that they "had trouble singing in tune." Their harmonies are at
times unique, but overall I'd say this is unfair.

<< The look and the style of the Beatles was far
more influencial than the music for the simple reason that the Beatles were
very hard to ape. >>

And bringing it back to the original question, The Beach Boys' harmonies were
even harder to ape, which is why perhaps it's hard to pin their vocal influence
on very many artists who followed.

The Cryan' Shames (whom I love) have been mentioned, and they (along with The
Association) are the only two artists I can think of that regularly piled on
the multiple harmonies to the extent The Beach Boys did (outside of
Sagittarius/Millenium etc., and there was a fairly direct connection with the
BB's there).

As pretty as the Shames' harmonies were, they weren't as complex as those
devised by Brian Wilson. And The Association's harmonies, while often dense,
were used in a different way. They didn't employ the high register in the way
Brian did with his falsetto, and thus they don't seem to "soar" the way The
Beach Boys vocals typically did.

I'd also like to point out that the fact that an artist may have created one or
two songs that *sound* like the Beach Boys is not necessarily an indication of
pervasive influence. I would want to hear the sound (or other factors, such as
characteristic chord changes, etc.) cropping up in their music repeatedly
before I'd call it a solid influence.

I know that Peter Buck of rem is a big Brian Wilson fan (I remember him hanging
out with Brian and conducting an interview with him several years back for a
magazine), but the one "tribute" track aside, I don't know that you can
identify a lot of Beach Boys influences in the band's music overall.

A final comment: though thankfully we've veered away from this approach, I
can't think of a more worthless exercise than discussing whether any one major
artist is "better" than another.

Are The Byrds "better" than Pat Boone? Most assuredly. But arguments over who
among The Beatles, The Stones (these first two are the usual combatants), The
Byrds, The Kinks, The Who et al is "best" are the height of absurdity.

Can't we simply be grateful we have *all* of their (very diverse) music to
enjoy as the mood strikes us and leave it at that? As someone early in the
thread correctly put it, "I like the Beach Boys and the Byrds for almost
entirely different reasons."

Bingo!

RV WRLee

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Feb 3, 2003, 9:57:40 AM2/3/03

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>Can't we simply be grateful we have *all* of their (very diverse) music to
>enjoy as the mood strikes us and leave it at that? As someone early in the
>thread correctly put it, "I like the Beach Boys and the Byrds for almost
>entirely different reasons."
>

Well put! I found that if I want music for different moods, I don't have to go
much further than Dylan....:-) BTW, has anybody listened to The Bootleg Tapes
1975 recently.
Bi!!

SteveL55555

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Feb 3, 2003, 10:44:31 AM2/3/03

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bigst...@aol.comma (BigStar303) wrote:

>And bringing it back to the original question, The Beach Boys'
>harmonies were even harder to ape, which is why perhaps it's
>hard to pin their vocal influence on very many artists who
>followed.

[snip]

>I'd also like to point out that the fact that an artist may have
>created one or two songs that *sound* like the Beach Boys is
>not necessarily an indication of pervasive influence. I would
>want to hear the sound (or other factors, such as characteristic
>chord changes, etc.) cropping up in their music repeatedly
>before I'd call it a solid influence.

I agree, Mike. That's what I was asking for in the original post. For instance,
"Draggin'" (and for that matter, "Beach Ball") is just a pastiche... none of
Roger's other music is informed by the Beach Boys.

But the Lindsey Buckingham/Fleetwood Mac example does seem pretty appropriate.
I can definitely hear the influence there.

>A final comment: though thankfully we've veered away from
>this approach, I can't think of a more worthless exercise than
>discussing whether any one major artist is "better" than
>another.

And I made sure to make that distinction in the original post.

--Steve

DTB

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Feb 3, 2003, 5:54:59 PM2/3/03

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"RV WRLee" <rvw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030203095740...@mb-mo.aol.com...

Were those the "Basement Tapes"?

DTB

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Feb 3, 2003, 5:54:09 PM2/3/03

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"BigStar303" <bigst...@aol.comma> wrote in message
news:20030203093122...@mb-cg.aol.com...

Yes, but can David Crosby sing "Moody River" as well at Pat Boone? :)

Eugene Goodale

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Feb 3, 2003, 6:25:53 PM2/3/03

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Yes! Its's great, great package, great performance and an appearance by
McGuinn on Knockin' on Heaven's Door. Comes with a short DVD from the Hard
Rain movie.

BTW Larry Sloman's book "On the Road with Bob Dylan" has been rereleased and
is an enjoyable companion read to Live 1975. It is a little over the top,
but a fun read anyway.

Gene

"RV WRLee" <rvw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030203095740...@mb-mo.aol.com...

r.hatts

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Feb 3, 2003, 8:43:10 PM2/3/03

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I would say they influenced: The Move,ELO, The Turtles, Tony Rivers and The
Castaways, The Who.

I will say though that their influence shows less clearly because their
sound is so difficult to master. Whereas if you are influenced by the Byrds,
you buy a Rickenbacker and you play it in a folky way then you are 1/2 way
there.

Richard

http://www.wiz.to/richardsnow/

"Laskodesign" <lasko...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030131112233...@mb-mj.aol.com...

DTB

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Feb 3, 2003, 9:33:32 PM2/3/03

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"r.hatts" <r.h...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:HVE%9.330$KX....@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...

You can buy the Ric, but can you get the harmonies down? I agree that there
are alot of groups that do affect the sound by using 12-string, but not alot
of them also get into the harmonies (I wish I could think of one, but I'm
stuck, maybe the Kennedys?). A group like R.E.M. doesn't have alot of Byrds
influence, in that they are dominated by the office of their lead singer
(which isn't a bad thing, they're great).

Another Byrds influence of sorts is "serious music". I think the Byrds were
really the first group to make music that appealed to themselves first and
their public second. Not that they couldn't make a hit record, but even the
throwoffs like "Oh, Susanah" had some integrity in that they represented an
attempt at humor. I think you might fault, "Don't Make Waves" as an
exception, but as my dad used to say, "They can look you in the eye when
they take their pay."

RV WRLee

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Feb 3, 2003, 11:42:25 PM2/3/03

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>Were those the "Basement Tapes"?
>

No, They are labeled "The Bootleg Series" This one is titled "Bob Dylan Live
1975" "The Rolling Thunder Revue" It's a live retrospective of the Rolling
Thunder Tour featuring Roger, Joan Baez, Mick Ronson, T-Bone Burnett, Howie
Wyeth, etc.
Bi!!

BigStar303

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Feb 4, 2003, 12:17:29 AM2/4/03

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DTB wrote:

<< Another Byrds influence of sorts is "serious music". I think the Byrds were
really the first group to make music that appealed to themselves first and
their public second. >>

This very point is made in some detail in Richie Unterberger's excellent book
"Turn! Turn! Turn!: The Folk-Rock Revolution."

It's pretty hard to identify too many Top 40 hits prior to "Mr. Tambourine Man"
that are focused on something more than standard "moon/June/spoon" stuff -- not
that there's anything at all wrong with such fare, but The Byrds more than I
think anyone else showed that rock could dig a little deeper than this and
still be appealing to the masses.

In fairness, however, one of the few predecessors to "Mr. Tambourine Man" was
the previously mentioned "What Have They Done to the Rain." No one likes the
classic Byrds lineup more than I do, but credit must rightfully be given to The
Searchers for being a) the first band to electrify and put a beat to a pure
folk song and take it to the Top 40 charts; and b) the first to introduce the
later Byrds formula of electric 12-string and folkie two-part vocal harmonies
(though the 12-string in "Rain" wasn't used nearly as dramatically as McGuinn
would right out of the gate).

William

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Feb 4, 2003, 9:24:27 PM2/4/03

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The Beach Boys and Byrds both used Rickenbackers and emphasized
harmonies.
Both were based in L.A. and used the same corps of studio musicians.
The Byrds had a horse on the cover of their albums and the Beach Boys'
LP's usually had picture of a horse's ass.
(sorry, that's an oldie).

, kat

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Feb 5, 2003, 3:47:48 AM2/5/03

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I liked the Beach Boys from the first time I heard the engine rev at
the beginning of 409. As the times were changing in the late sixties
though, I became a bit less interested in the Beach Boy sound. After
the release of the Beatles Sgt. Pepper, a lot of groups began
experimenting with different forms and seeking new directions - sort
of in line with the times, free-form FM, lava lamps, bongs, etc..
I was delighted by all the diversity in popular music that sort or
erupted back then, and the focus on good quality, professional, live,
loud music that was a hallmark of that era.

In contrast to those trends, the Beach Boys, for better or worse,
stayed pretty much within themselves stylistically. Good Vibrations
was about as adventurous as they would get.

Dauber

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Feb 5, 2003, 9:45:24 AM2/5/03

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Waaaaay back on 04-Feb-03 21:24:27, William said this about Re: Byrds/Beach Boys:

>The Beach Boys and Byrds both used Rickenbackers and emphasized
>harmonies.

I don't think there was a heckuva lot of emphasis on harmony in the Byrds, though; at the very least, it was much simpler. MOst of their harmonies [at least during the '60s] were only two-part -- Roger and Gene would sing in unison and David would add the high harmony. In fact, the only song I can think of that has more harmonies is "Satisfied Mind"...

And with the Beach Boys...really, not a heckuva lot of Rickenbacker, at least in the studio. [I think Brian Wilson's session guitarists actually used Fender 12-strings.]

>Both were based in L.A. and used the same corps of studio musicians.
>The Byrds had a horse on the cover of their albums and the Beach Boys'
>LP's usually had picture of a horse's ass.
>(sorry, that's an oldie).

Hmmmm....where have I heard that one before? :)

BigStar303

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Feb 5, 2003, 9:53:23 AM2/5/03

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kat wrote:

Actually, The Beach Boys of 1966-67 were thought of among the rock elite in the
same breath as The Beatles -- although at least some of this was based on the
*anticipation* of the never-released "Smile" album.

In England (where in contrast to the U.S. "Pet Sounds" sold quite well), they
topped The Beatles in the NME poll for favorite group of 1966. The Beach Boys
were discussed in the hip musical press of the era with all the seriousness of
The Beatles and every other artist who was pursuing the path you described.

But Brian Wilson's mental collapse, the failure of "Smile" to be released
(after all the hype, "Smiley Smile" was a major letdown despite having some
good moments), and a missed opportunity for The Beach Boys to play the Monterey
Pop Festival in 1967 conspired to rob them of the hip cachet they had been
cultivating.

By 1968, that was pretty much all over, and it took them until the 1971 "Surf's
Up" album to regain some measure of it.

A story I've told before is somewhat illustrative of this. I had a birthday
party in February 1968, and one of my friends who was not known for being
musically hip gave me the "Wild Honey" album as a present.

At the time, my other cooler friends and I sort of snickered at this, as if it
were some sort of a great musical faux pas. Of course, I subsequently came to
realize that this album -- while certainly not scaling the heights of greatness
promised by what Brian Wilson was doing two years previous -- was still quite
wonderful in its own way.

Indeed, the "Wild Honey" album gives me great pleasure to this day, and "Let
the Wind Blow" is among my favorite Beach Boy songs.

JuncoX

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Feb 5, 2003, 10:24:56 PM2/5/03

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>In contrast to those trends, the Beach Boys, for better or worse,
>stayed pretty much within themselves stylistically. Good Vibrations
>was about as adventurous as they would get.

Have you ever heard albums like FRIENDS, 20/20, SUNFLOWER and SURF'S UP? I
don't know if you'd call them adventurous per se, but they definitely went well
beyond the "surfing, cars and california girls" formula of their early years. I
listen to songs like "Time To Get Alone," "Breakaway," "Forever," "This Whole
World," "Our Prayer" and "Feel Flows" and I just can't help, but be in awe of
their beauty.
,Peter R.

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Feb 6, 2003, 10:43:23 AM2/6/03

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William wrote:

> Both were based in L.A. and used the same corps of studio musicians.

More specifically, Glen Campbell subbed for Brian Wilson when Wilson became
emotionally incapable of touring, and Campbell played 12-string when
"Mister Tambourine Man" was recorded.

--
Bob Broughton
http://broughton.ca/
Vancouver, BC, Canada
"Anyone who believes Big Tobacco is a fool and an idiot." - Mary Herrin,
mailto:spin...@usa.net , Dec. 7, 2002

SteveL55555

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Feb 6, 2003, 11:41:32 AM2/6/03

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Robert Broughton rbro...@brou8ghton.ca wrote:

>More specifically, Glen Campbell subbed for Brian
>Wilson when Wilson became emotionally incapable
>of touring, and Campbell played 12-string when
>"Mister Tambourine Man" was recorded.

Although Byrds manager Jim Dickson supposedly considered using Glen Campbell,
he did not play 12-string on MTM or any other Byrds recording.

Roger McGuinn played the 12-string on MTM. The Campbell story was disproved
years ago by McGuinn's copy of the musician session log.

The only other guitarist who played on the MTM single was Jerry Cole.

--Steve

Jon Cox

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Feb 6, 2003, 11:59:42 AM2/6/03

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I have to be in the 'amen' corner on this.

I love the Byrds and the Beach Boys and it definitely is a mood or
seasonal thing.

I hate to admit it, but I was already an unknowlegeable Beach Boys fan
in the early '70s as a child when I first heard a 'Turn Turn Turn'
snippet on a TV record offer commercial. Thinking it was the Beach Boys
because of the fantastic tight harmonies.

After scouring Peaches record store in the Beach Boys bin I could not
find that song on any BB album! (Imagine that!!) The amused guy working
there pointed me to the Byrds and I bought the TTT album on 8-track Will
Rogers once said, 'Folks that's where it all started.'

I'm turning 40 this year and have enjoyed countless hours of music from
both bands and took up the guitar from those influences. Okay, them and
those lads from Liverpool!

Thanks for the pleasant memories back in time....

Jon

Jon Cox

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Feb 6, 2003, 12:04:19 PM2/6/03

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Yes, true enough. And further demonstrated by the session contract on
Roger's website. http://www.mcguinn.com

Glen did use the ole Fender Electric XII in Olympic white on a number of
the BB sessions and in his stint on the road. I have several pictures of
that in various BB books.

Cool guitar, but it would not have given us the same sound on the MTM
single we have all known and loved.

I have both an eXII and 370/12, 360/12CWs. Big difference in type of jangle.

Jon

david gourley

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Feb 6, 2003, 12:40:04 PM2/6/03

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rbro...@brou8ghton.ca (Robert Broughton) <b1tvqr$5e7$1...@venn.bc.ca>:

>William wrote:
>
>> Both were based in L.A. and used the same corps of studio musicians.
>
>More specifically, Glen Campbell subbed for Brian Wilson when Wilson
>became emotionally incapable of touring, and Campbell played 12-string
>when "Mister Tambourine Man" was recorded.
>

huh????

i thought it was bruce johnston that toured, playing bass, instead of bw...

never heard about gc playing on mtm, either, but i'm all eyes and ears to
the enlightenment.

david

Jon Cox

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Feb 6, 2003, 12:52:37 PM2/6/03

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Yes, Glen was an emergency replacement for Brian after the breakdown on
December 23, 1964 on the plane between LAX and HOU for the show in
Houston. Glen was involved for 14 shows beginning in February 1965
according to Gaines 'Heroes and Villains'.

The MTM deal was a rumor dispelled by Roger McGuinn posting the MTM
recording contract with logs.

Jon

david gourley

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Feb 6, 2003, 1:55:45 PM2/6/03

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cap...@attbi.com (Jon Cox) <3E42A0F1...@attbi.com>:

cool, and many thanks jon for the followup!

david

Robert Broughton

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Feb 7, 2003, 6:42:25 PM2/7/03

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SteveL55555 wrote:

> Robert Broughton rbro...@brou8ghton.ca wrote:
>
>>More specifically, Glen Campbell subbed for Brian
>>Wilson when Wilson became emotionally incapable
>>of touring, and Campbell played 12-string when
>>"Mister Tambourine Man" was recorded.
>
> Although Byrds manager Jim Dickson supposedly considered using Glen
> Campbell, he did not play 12-string on MTM or any other Byrds recording.
>
> Roger McGuinn played the 12-string on MTM. The Campbell story was
> disproved years ago by McGuinn's copy of the musician session log.
>

My humble apologies. My source was David Crosby's book, _Long Time Gone_, p.
88.

BlackMonk

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Feb 8, 2003, 10:52:18 AM2/8/03

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"BigStar303" <bigst...@aol.comma> wrote in message
news:20030203093122...@mb-cg.aol.com...

> I know that Peter Buck of rem is a big Brian Wilson fan (I remember him
hanging
> out with Brian and conducting an interview with him several years back for
a
> magazine), but the one "tribute" track aside, I don't know that you can
> identify a lot of Beach Boys influences in the band's music overall.

More than a Brian Wilson fan, he's a fan of Love You, an unfairly ignored
album that may be my favorite by them.

BlackMonk

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Feb 8, 2003, 10:56:51 AM2/8/03

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"DTB" <dbok...@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0EF%9.3573$ZK1....@twister.southeast.rr.com...

>
> Another Byrds influence of sorts is "serious music". I think the Byrds
were
> really the first group to make music that appealed to themselves first and
> their public second. Not that they couldn't make a hit record, but even
the
> throwoffs like "Oh, Susanah" had some integrity in that they represented
an
> attempt at humor.

To be fair, they were building on battles the Beach Boys (the right to
produce their own records) and The Beatles (the right to exclusively rely on
their own writing for singles) had already fought.

DTB

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Feb 8, 2003, 11:29:38 AM2/8/03

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"BlackMonk" <Blac...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:b239na$18n2d0$1...@ID-133514.news.dfncis.de...

It probably also helped that they were with Columbia, which wasn't really a
hit factory for pop music. They had a good track record working with folk
and jazz artists and their staffers were probably more in tune with what The
Byrds were trying to put across on record. It was actually a really good
marraige, because if they had been on a smaller label they might not have
gotten anywhere, and if they had been signed to a label that was more Top-40
oriented they wouldn't have been allowed to be themselves. You also wonder
if a different label wouldn't have tried to make it "Gene Clark and The
Byrds".

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Feb 8, 2003, 1:41:41 PM2/8/03

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>Robert Broughton rbro...@brou8ghton.ca
writes: and Campbell played 12-string when>"Mister Tambourine Man" was
recorded.

No, not even close...Tom

, kat

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Feb 8, 2003, 2:26:36 PM2/8/03

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bigst...@aol.comma (BigStar303) wrote

> Actually, The Beach Boys of 1966-67 were thought of among the rock elite in the same breath as The Beatles -- although at least some of this was based on the *anticipation* of the never-released "Smile" album.

---------------------------------

I have a lot of regard for some post early sixties BB like Heroeos and
Villains" "Surf'Up" "Let the Wind Blow" Sail on on Sailor"" etc..

I think you got the gist of my point though - that the Beach Boys had
an image problem (and obviously many other personal problems) as they
headed into the late sixties/early seventies.
As far as the late sixties, the anti-war movement finally got major
traction after years of war and thousands killed, and many popular
musicians and groups really helped to lead the way.
What one said publically and how one dressed all went into the
perception of how hip one was.
In that context, the Beach Boys could not shake the "preppy" (or
"collegiate"'look as we called it then) image and the music(at least
lyrically) was far short of the anti-establishment/antiwar tone of
their peers.
I could not have imagined them at Woodstock, even as great as they
were.
Looking back at the BB even now, I think of them as preppy kids in
striped shirts, despite Smile or the vast substance and depth of the
work of Brian W.

BlackMonk

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Feb 8, 2003, 3:22:56 PM2/8/03

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"TomThunder" <tomth...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030208133055...@mb-cl.aol.com...

> >Blac...@email.msn.com
> writes: >To be fair, they were building on battles the Beach Boys (the
right to
> >produce their own records) and The Beatles (the right to exclusively rely
on
> >their own writing for singles) had already fought.>
>
> They never did, until 'Farther Along', produce their own recordings,

If we're talking about artistic control, the fact that the Beach Boys fought
their label and won can only have set a precident that make things easier
for The Byrds.

and Chuck
> Berry, Buddy Holly, and Carl Perkins, all huge Beatles influences, all
wrote
> their own material years before The Beatles entered a recording
studio...Tom
>
>

In 1963, a group writing their own material, without their producer getting
at least co-writer credit was the exception rather than the rule. The Byrds
didn't write their singles at first, either, but The Beatles doing this also
helped create a climate where The Byrds could make the music that they
wanted.

DTB

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Feb 8, 2003, 5:24:52 PM2/8/03

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"TomThunder" <tomth...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030208133827...@mb-cl.aol.com...

I always liked Mitch Miller's music as a kid. I remember "Sing Along With
Mitch" and all that. It wasn't profound, but it was fun and a nice
introduction to music. Burl Ives was sort of the same pleasure. I don't
think kids get anything much like that from TV today.

BlackMonk

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Feb 8, 2003, 5:43:36 PM2/8/03

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Here's another Beach Boys influenced group, Sailor. (It's probably a
coincidence about the group names, though)

I never noticed it before, but I just put on an album by them and it hit me
that the BBs were a major influence.

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Feb 9, 2003, 2:57:48 PM2/9/03

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tomth...@aol.com (TomThunder) wrote:

>I detested Mitch Miller with a passion. My dad used to
>love to watch his television show, and I, even at that
>early age, always wondered why there weren't any 'girl'
>singers on the show, only men. And the music wasn't all
>that great, imvho...Tom

LOL!! How do you really feel, Tom?

I remember watching old Mitch and thinking it was boring and stupid. The
all-guy thing was also weird. He also HATED rock 'n roll -- another of those
geniuses who said it was just a passing fad.

But to his credit, Mitch did give wide exposure to Leslie Uggams, the only
featured woman (not to mention African American) on the show. Back in the day
she was pretty hot.

--Steve

William

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Feb 9, 2003, 7:14:29 PM2/9/03

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Leave it to Crosby to write that McGuinn did not play the 12 on MTM.
To be fair however, i did see him in an interview (around the time of
the reunion, with Rog in the room) say that McGuinn was the only Byrd
who played an instrument on the session, because "the studio cats
couldnt do what this cat could do, dig?"

Speaking of Cole, he does that ka-chink rhythm on MTM, more of an
accent than anything else. He does the same on "Don't worry Baby."

There is a Carl Wilson signature Rick.

One thing about the Beach Boys and the "loud rock" revolution. They
were right there as touring band at the time, playing the Fillmore and
sometimes jamming with the Dead and others on stage. The Surfs Up
album hit big and had a heavier sound. I saw them twice around this
time and they great. It wasnt until later they started to get jokey.

JuncoX

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Feb 9, 2003, 10:30:20 PM2/9/03

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>One thing about the Beach Boys and the "loud rock" revolution. They
>were right there as touring band at the time, playing the Fillmore and
>sometimes jamming with the Dead and others on stage.

I like the IN CONCERT LP from 1973. It was recorded during the tour to
promote HOLLAND which itself was a pretty fine album ("Sail On Sailor" and
"Trader" being particularly brilliant). They had Blondie Chaplin and Ricky
Fataar fleshing things out vocally and/or instrumentally and they really
sounded great. Actually they were argumented by quite a few sidemen as well.
But anyway that is one rocking album which came out on CD a couple of years
ago.
,Peter R.

SteveL55555

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Feb 10, 2003, 12:43:09 AM2/10/03

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byrd...@subdimension.com (William) wrote:

>Leave it to Crosby to write that McGuinn did not play the 12 on MTM.
>

Actually, it's co-author Carl Gottlieb who makes that mistake. The book is
written in several "voices," or parallel narratives.

>
>There is a Carl Wilson signature Rick.

I have the 360-12CW in Fireglo, and I actually like it a little better than the
limited edition McGuinn model 370-12. The figured maple, lighter weight, and
7.5K vintage pickups make it a jewel.

--Steve

PaulB

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Feb 10, 2003, 3:17:09 PM2/10/03

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kat wrote:

> Looking back at the BB even now, I think of them as preppy kids in
> striped shirts, despite Smile or the vast substance and depth of the
> work of Brian W.

I remember noticing the paradox of these preppy-imaged,(relatively)
shorthaired guys making some of the most sophisticated music around. But
that very lack of trendiness in their image was something I admired
about them.

Paul

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Feb 13, 2003, 10:37:15 AM2/13/03

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BigStar303 wrote:

> Tom Thunder wrote:
>
> << >Robert Broughton rbro...@brou8ghton.ca
> writes: >I have a Marty Robbins box set. ("El Paso" and "Big Iron" were
> recorded in
>>the same session, Grady Martin on guitar. These songs still sound great.)
>>Miller was producing Robbins and a lot of other Columbia performers during
>>the mid to late 1950's. If you listen to this collection, you should be
>>able
> to figure out which songs Miller was involved in without looking at>the
> credits; they're the really awful ones. The best known example is "A
>>White Sport Coat (and a Pink Carnation)", which could be classified as
>>"awful" instead of "really awful".
>

>> I though Don Law, then director of Nashville A&R for Columbia/Epic
>> produced most of the country artists, this being before the Billy
Sherrill
>> years of the late sixties on, when CBS records had their biggest
crossover
>> successes (e.g., 'Rose Garden')... >>
>
> Don Law did indeed produce many if not most of the major Columbia country
> artists of the 50s (Carl Smith, Ray Price, etc.) -- although one source
> tells me that the way many of these sessions were "produced" was by giving
> Don a bottle of his favorite stuff and letting him fall asleep under the
> console, thus giving the musicians their own hand!
>
> However, Marty Robbins' more pop-oriented material was indeed produced in
> New York City by Mitch Miller and Ray Coniff. I don't know the ratio of
> their contributions, but both apparently were involved.
>
> Mitch Miller liked "El Paso" but turned it down because of its uncommon
> length -- thus, this track was produced in Nashville by Don Law and Frank
> Jones.

Yep, and (obviously) "Big Iron" as well. Law also produced "Singing the
Blues", "Mister Teardrop", and "Devil Woman".

--

Bob Broughton
http://broughton.ca/
Vancouver, BC, Canada

Charles Myer

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Feb 13, 2003, 8:52:19 PM2/13/03

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While we're on the subject of Don Law/Frank Jones - I always liked the
tasteful production of those Carl Smith and Ray Price records, but he also
is credited for those '60s Flatt & Scruggs albums where they don't really
seem to be playing their own instruments, they have a very good if mellow
studio band.
Any thoughts on who was behind taking the instruments away from some of the
greatest bluegrass musicians ever? Was it the producers or Columbia itself?
Just curious -

Charlie
Houston TX

"Robert Broughton" <rbro...@brou8ghton.ca> wrote in message
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