crediting "Hickory Wind"
Marco
I would like to suggest you the reading of an interesting article about Gram
Parsons' song "Hickory Wind" on
Folklinks.com written by David W. Johnson.
"Our article on the story of a song, "Hickory Wind," has a lot of
information. We hope it will be of interest to performers, songwriters,
radio show hosts, magazines, and lots of people who follow folk and acoustic
music. The thrust of the story - that country-rock pioneer Gram Parsons
appears not to have written his best-known song - may be a difficult message
for admirers of Parsons to receive. It certainly was for this admirer."
Just follow these links:
http://www.folklinks.com/hickory_wind.html
Bye
Marco
===========================================
visit MYSONGBOOK website - lyrics of the Byrds and related
http://members.tripod.com/mysongbook
===========================================
kat
Yet, as I read about Ms. Sammons, and see her interviewed, (need Apple Quicktime to open)
http://www.kenilworthmedia.com/cv/ourstate/people/sylviasammons/index.html
I begin to believe that this person may very well be the genuine author of "Hickory Wind."
The song contains the sort of vivid imagery (the sensation of a hickory wind, calling one home) that might very well come to mind
for an individual who was blinded at six and who later became a writer/performer of folk songs with vivid images of a childhood
spent in South Carolina. Ms. Simmons apparently is not looking for money but if she wrote the song, she is entitled to much
recognition that has heretofore gone elsewhere.
The idea that it may have been stolen by Parsons in 1968 (notwithstanding any later settlement) and then brought by him to the Byrds
is very troubling, so I hope more is forthcoming on this.
Thanks for the link Marco.
SteveL55555
>The idea that ["Hickory Wind"] may have been stolen by
>Parsons in 1968 (notwithstanding any later settlement)
>and then brought by him to the Byrds is very troubling,
>so I hope more is forthcoming on this.
This is not the first case of Parson's not duly crediting a songwriter. The
same thing happened with "Return of the Grievous Angel". Thomas Brown
eventually received co-composing credit on subsequent releases of the album
after threatening litigation against Parsons' estate. But that espisode gives
Ms. Sammon's story additional credibility, imo.
--Steve
TomThunder
writes:<snip>>The thrust of the story - that country-rock pioneer Gram Parsons
>appears not to have written his best-known song - may be a difficult message
>for admirers of Parsons to receive.
I don't know why a songwriter of Gram's talent would need to steal a song. As
for the song being 'feminine', 'Hot Burrito #2 (I'm Your Toy), has (to my ears)
a similar feel. And why did it take so long for this to come forward? And why
doesn't this woman remember if Vanguard records or the songs publisher
(Tickson) paid her?
I have never heard of Vanguard paying anyone off, they being one of the keepers
of the flame re: folk music, and certainly Dickson and/or Tickner would have
remembered such and incident...Tom
kat
"TomThunder" <tomth...@aol.com> wrote :
>I don't know why a songwriter of Gram's talent would need to steal a song.
If you mean that no possible motivation to do it existed, that might be too generous.
First, as Steve pointed out, this may not be the first case of Graham Parsons not duly crediting a songwriter. Second, the song is
not just another one, it is special - perhaps a landmark song on a landmark album.
It was part of Graham's ticket into the Byrds, a big part of his contribution to the Byrds, and also, a large part of his own
legacy.
>And why doesn't this woman remember if Vanguard records or the songs publisher (Tickson) paid her?
She was blind and this allegedly happened in 1969. She is not asserting (like some of the well known cases invoving Harrison
,Dylan,ect.) that she was never paid for it, only when she was paid for it - in 1969, well after Parsons/Bucannon had their names
typed on Sweetheart for writing it.
I have some questions on this as well. First, Parsons/Bucannon copyrighted the song in 1969....why did they wait until more than a
year after Sweetheart was released to apply for a copyright? Is that how things are typically done? Secondly, where is Bucannon and
has anyone asked him about this ?(This would certainly conflict with his account from the Ben-Fong Torres book).
byrdsfan
guy, i think from Boston, had proof he had written much of the song
and reached a settlement, which came after Parsons' death.
To be fair, song writing credits have been bartered and litigated over
the years. Hank Williams admittedly bought songs from people he'd
meet. Good writers borrow, great steal and legends buy?
Stephen MacDougall
byrdsfan <byrd...@mailandnews.com> wrote
> I remember a similiar incident with "In My Hour of Darkness." Some
> guy, i think from Boston, had proof he had written much of the song
> and reached a settlement, which came after Parsons' death.
I thought that each person described in that song had some personal impact
on Gram. The middle guy was an obvious reference to Clarence White, whom
Parsons befriended after they were both ex-Byrds.
Still, even if he didn't write the songs, I think it's the purity of his
voice that attracts me to his music.
> To be fair, song writing credits have been bartered and litigated over
> the years. Hank Williams admittedly bought songs from people he'd
> meet. Good writers borrow, great steal and legends buy?
Well, then there are also the the idiot rip-offs, where there are a lot of
people who know that a song has been ripped off. Led Zepplin took credit
for "The Lemon Song" which was actually two legendary blues songs, one
written by Howlin' Wolf and the other Robert Johnson.
--
Stephen MacDougall, MSW, LSW
http://home.att.net/~s.macdougall
http://www.mp3.com/Enemy_Plane
BigStar303
<< Well, then there are also the the idiot rip-offs, where there are a lot of
people who know that a song has been ripped off. Led Zepplin took credit
for "The Lemon Song" which was actually two legendary blues songs, one
written by Howlin' Wolf and the other Robert Johnson. >>
Equally if not more egregious was Page's blatant theft of contemporary folkie
Jake Holmes' "Dazed and Confused."
PaulB
> I thought that each person described in that song had some personal impact
> on Gram. The middle guy was an obvious reference to Clarence White, whom
> Parsons befriended after they were both ex-Byrds.
I believe the first verse is about Brandon deWilde the actor who'd died around
that time and the third is about another friend, Sid Keyser, who'd done
likewise. This is the first I'd heard about the song's authorship being
questioned.
I was really curious as to what they're saying about the "Hickory Wind" issue
over on the gramparsons.com bulletin board, but I noticed it's become
passworded since my last visit (could've been ages ago...), and I wasn't in a
signing-up mood. But I'm guessing some of those folks are dropping some
serious rocks over this one. <g>
A funny, but inconsequential, "Hickory Wind" story. Twenty-some years ago, I
played a lot of music with a fellow a generation older than myself, a fine
country singer and the kind of guy who thought country music went down the
tubes around the time they started putting pedals on steel guitars. Sitting
around one day, it occurred to me he might like "Hickory Wind," so I sang it
for him, really trying to do it great (which is not easy for me <g>). When I
finished, and was awaiting this big enthusiastic response, all he said was,
"Whoever wrote that song must really like trees." So we went onto something
else...
I don't have an opinion on the authorship issue, but I always thought "It's a
hard way to find out that trouble is real" is one of the most classically
haunting lines that anybody's ever come up with.
Paul
RV WRLee
>hard way to find out that trouble is real" is one of the most classically
>haunting lines that anybody's ever come up with.
There's an alternate version of that verse that goes "It's a hard way to find
out the devil is real".
Bi!!
kat
"TomThunder" <tomth...@aol.com> wrote :
...certainly Dickson and/or Tickner would have remembered such and incident...Tom
------------------------------------------------------
I don't understand how Tickner/Dickson would have known anything about this at all.
I do know that the Parsons estate aggressively pursued them in some (1995) California litigation. Among the allegations made by the
Parsons estate there:
"In 1972, he (Gram Parsons) entered into an agreement with Edward Tickner and James Dickson to manage his musical career. A company
called Wait & See Music was formed to publish and promote Parsons's music. Parsons was the owner of Wait & See Music; the role of
Tickner and Dickson was to collect the royalties due Parsons. Parsons never transferred any copyrights for his music to either
Tickner or Dickson. Nevertheless, when Parsons died in 1973, Tickner and Dickson wrongfully converted Wait & See and its catalog of
Parsons's songs to their own company, "Tickson Music," and proceeded to exploit the Wait & See catalog for their own economic
advantage. " 31 Cal. App. 4th 1513 (1995)
paul dash
songwriters DO send tapes + lyric + chord sheets to themselves...If she
did do this and the postmark jives....Ah.. I dont want to go there..I
love Grams music anyway.. Paul
Gmcg9876
>voice that attracts me to his music
Ha ha ha ha ha!
Face it - Parsons was a scumbag.
Gerry
RV WRLee
>at all.
>I do know that the Parsons estate aggressively pursued them in some (1995)
>California litigation.
Apparantly the Parson's estate was/is a litigious group. Tickner/Dickson
weren't the only ones that were sued by Polly.
Bi!!
paul dash
bugged about this.. Im attracted to Gram"s music cause he and Hillmen
took big chances goin in a country direction...Their originals on 1st
burrito lp are brilliant....Quite frankly i think my favorite early Gram
songs are the covers...Live or studio..Gram had an attitude and soulfull
vocals....Just think how much he would have done if he hadnt had that
trust fund.....As far as which byrds line up to like..I dont understand
the arguments.. Every line up was brilliant + original...The variety of
the music is what has kept the LEGEND alive...Bands that play only one
style of music fade away..Witness hair bands.. !!! LOL !!!... The
Byrds have a legacy cause of ALL the different styles of music they
played...Which can NEVER be denied...IMHO.. Paul
kat
As far as the Byrd line-ups, I believe the genesis of these arguments was a Rolling Stone interview with David Crosby back in 1970.
Crosby cautions the latter Byrds about the quality of their work, but at the same time confirms a lot of problems with live
performances during his tenure, icluding some his own shortcomings.
SeeCrosby interview at:
http://www.suitelorraine.com/suitelorraine/Pages/crozrs70.html
paul dash
know...!!!
RH
I recall an 80's Whitney Houston song which stole the melody from the hook
in Gordon Lightfoot's "If You Could Read My Mind." Dylan's "Masters of War"
is note for note from an old English song "Nottamun Town."
"TomThunder" <tomth...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020129154153...@mb-bh.aol.com...
> >"Marco" zan...@libero.it
> writes:<snip>>The thrust of the story - that country-rock pioneer Gram
Parsons
> >appears not to have written his best-known song - may be a difficult
message
> >for admirers of Parsons to receive.
>
> I don't know why a songwriter of Gram's talent would need to steal a
song. --snip---
...Tom
Can Altinbay
Guthrie wrote many of his songs using existing melodies. You can tell when
there are Ledbelly songs with the same melody as Woody's. Other examples -
Reuben James and Wildwood Flower; The Ballad of Hollis Brown and Pastures of
Plenty.
"RH" <ficti...@bmts.com> wrote in message
news:10127602...@Virginia.BMTS.Com...
kat
"Can Altinbay" <calt...@earthlink.net> wrote :
Dylan's "lifting" of a melody is firmly in the folk tradition. Woody
Guthrie wrote many of his songs using existing melodies.
"RH" <ficti...@bmts.com> wrote in message
> Many extremely talented writers have, consciously or not, lifted material.
> I recall an 80's Whitney Houston song which stole the melody from the hook
> in Gordon Lightfoot's "If You Could Read My Mind." Dylan's "Masters of
War" is note for note from an old English song "Nottamun Town."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand that some unintentional similarities in melody and chord structure can occur by chance, or that simple hooks in a song
can be duplicated and may be viewed as minor transgressions of originality.
However, I am still reserving judgment on the Parsons story until I know a bit more, because something quite different is alleged
to have happened there.
If indeed outright intentional plagiarism of lyrics is involved or if the facts demonstrate that a significant part of "Hickory
Wind" was lifted from a little blind girl, some may not take so kindly to it.
RV WRLee
>If indeed outright intentional plagiarism of lyrics is involved or if the
>facts demonstrate that a significant part of "Hickory
>Wind" was lifted from a little blind girl, some may not take so kindly to it.
It appears that she was paid for it so I'm not sure it was "lifted"
Bi!!
TomThunder
writes:
>If the story is true, it appears she was paid for the song a year or two
>*after* it appeared on Sweetheart and only *after* she raised a stink >(sorta
like paying for lifted merchandise after you get caught
>shoplifting). And while the payment may have compensated her for >royalties
she might have received, nothing can compensate her for the >loss of the
writing credit on such a great song.
We assume that she is right. What if she she didn't write it. There are cases
where little-known 'songwriters' have raised the issue of their songs being
plagarized by people like Michael Jackson and Stevie Nicks. Both reportedly
received unsolicited tapes, and were accused of stealing. I don't remember the
song in the Jackson case, but I do remember Michael testifying how he 'built'
the song in question, using tapes from the sessions. I recall that 'Rhiannon'
was the song in question in the Nicks case, and I don't remember the facts on
that one. I sure wish some wealthy performer (Paul McCartney are you
listening?) would hear me play one of my songs, so that I could sic my
attorneys on him, should he ever write anything similar...Tom
RV WRLee
>listening?) would hear me play one of my songs, so that I could sic my
>attorneys on him, should he ever write anything similar...Tom
Except in this case it appears that nobody litigated anything except the
"Parsons'" estate/family.
Bi!!
BigStar303
<< If the story is true, it appears she was paid for the song a year or two
*after* it appeared on Sweetheart and only *after* she raised a stink
(sorta like paying for lifted merchandise after you get caught
shoplifting). And while the payment may have compensated her for
royalties she might have received, nothing can compensate her for the
loss of the writing credit on such a great song.
Again, *if* the story is true. >>
I agree with this assessment, while at the same time emphasizing the "if the
story is true" caveat.
It's true that there are many unknown songwriters who've raised dubious claims
that their material has been stolen by those better-known. Most of these claims
fail -- but a few have been successful.
In this particular case, we do have more than just the original songwriter
making this claim (the independent confirmation by the college professor --
YMMV as to whether her profession lends her testimony greater weight, but at
least she's not some anonymous fly-by-night).
All in all, I think this cries out for further independent research. I think
"Hickory Wind" is Gram Parsons' greatest and most enduring song. If it can be
proven that he didn't write it, as he claimed, I'd say that's a pretty
significant bit of information to add to the overall assessment of his career.
Stephen MacDougall
> I recall that 'Rhiannon' was the song in question in the Nicks
> case, and I don't remember the facts on that one.
Actually, it was "Sara" from the "Tusk" album. Stevie fought and won.
kat
"TomThunder" <tomth...@aol.com> wrote
We assume that she is right. What if she she didn't write it.
listening?) would hear me play one of my songs, so that I could sic my
attorneys on him, should he ever write anything similar...Tom
Nobody here has prejudged this, but the circumstantial evidence to this point is strong and certainly enough to merit further
investigation.
If it isn't true, Ms. Sammons is a big liar and must have some financial or other motivation to do so. That is a possibility I do
not entirely discount, but I am not going to trash this person just hoping that it isn't true.
On the other side, if it is true, Parsons was no Paul McCartney when he allegedly heard the song in the early sixties before he came
to the point of seeing Hillman at the bank. He was a Harvard guy from a wealthy Florida family who admired Elvis Presley and was
looking for opportunities in the business to get where he wanted to go.
The possiblity that this fellow stole *anything* from the little blind girl from South Carolina without telling her or crediting her
is troubling - at least to me. As I said before, "Hickory Wind" was his signature song, part of his ticket into the Byrds, and so
associated with him that "Hickory Wind" was chosen as the name of Ben Fong-Torres' Gram Parsons biography.
If true, this would show him to be the sort of small person who would dare to take from a handicapped person for their own gain and
fame. It would make me wonder what else he might have taken.
Beyond any legal or other issue though, the song would take on a different meaning to some of us who have listened to it for all
these years. The song would hold a message, not from Parsons, but from a blind musician from SC in quite a different circumstance.
I'm sure the substantial legacy of Gram Parsons and his "litigious" estate will go on regardless.
But what about the little guy who writes a song somewhere, someplace, somehow?
Maybe somebody should hear some of Tom's songs, Ross T., Gat, and others here, and if they are good, reward the damn artist - at
least give them credit.
After yesterday, one should not be so quick to discount any underdog (how 'bout those Pats?)
Maybe Sylvia Sammons deserves a bit of credit, just maybe. We'll see.
RH
the award privately. He told me he was only trying to prove a point.
All the Best...
Richard Harison
" kat" <no...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:gbp78.28454$U35.3024046211@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
TomThunder
writes:>If it isn't true, Ms. Sammons is a big liar and must have some
financial or
>other motivation to do so.
I wouldn't necessarily call her a liar, but people do get confused, and
sometimes are mistaken, and sometimes it goes a little beyond that. I do have a
problem with her not remembering who made the settlement to her. If someone
paid me for a song, especially one as great as 'Hickory Wind', I would surely
remember...it would be seared into my memory...Tom
kat
"TomThunder" <tomth...@aol.com> wrote :I do have a
problem with her not remembering who made the settlement to her. If someone
paid me for a song, especially one as great as 'Hickory Wind', I would surely
remember...it would be seared into my memory.
There does need to be more from both sides, including info. about the alleged settlement or payment. On this point though, I tread
lightly because Sammons was a blind teenager when this took place and some college professor (if he is still alive now) handled this
for her. There could be some things she was not even aware of that may have occurred. I am pretty sure more will come out about
this, i.e., what she was told, where any alleged money went, etc.
On the other side of the coin I wonder about Vanguard's alleged response - that they do not keep records of correspondence dating
back that far. (If her tape was included as she alleges, does that mean they would have tossed that as well?) I would imagine
Buchannan (is he still around?), Joan Baez, and those present at Vanguard back in those days may all be questioned about this at
some point, if it gets that far.
If this is an in-between case (she wrote most of the lyrics/ Buchannon most of the melody, and Parsons added a twist and sang it)
she still should have been credited.
-kat
"I wish that for just one time you could stand inside my shoes...."
Bob Dylan