Bill Ward's Drum Playing
sean...@home.net
Ward sometimes doesn't hit his rolls and fills in perfect time, but that
really seems to be a real part of the appeal of his drum playing to me. He
lags just a milli-second behind in time and it can sound sloppy to some
ears, but it sounds fucking fabulous to me.
I wonder if it is intentional or if he just can't keep time. It doesn't
really matter either way because that is Bill Ward's signature sound. It
seems in his interviews that he is perfectly aware that he can't keep time
very well and feels that is maybe why he was left out of some of the Sabbath
"reunions" in the past. He seems to think Tony prefers a "timekeeper"
drummer to his intricate style.
Ward also throws in complex stuff in places that you wouldn't normally hear
more time-oriented drummers doing. It all sounds very jazzy and progressive.
In many of the songs you really don't feel like he's the rhythmic anchor of
the song, but is instead playing around, in between, and on top of the bass
or guitar riffs. That is the real dynamic there, he's part of the sound,
but not right in the center of it because he is reacting to where they are
going and where they've been. Really, like a improvisational jazz drummer.
I know it's really hard to describe this all in words, but it is really
uncommon for a rock drummer's style.
I also noticed this in listening to the recent live MP3's of Lord of This
World and Faires Wear Boots on Ozzyhead's site (which also proves that all
AOL users are not idiots). Even though I've always felt this way from a
sentimental/nostalgic viewpoint, I finally am convinced that Ward's style
of playing is *really* an integral part of the band's original musical
sound. From a musical standpoint, he can sound sloppy at times, but he is
irreplacable in terms of reproducing the sound they had at their peak. I'd
rather hear a sloppy adventurous Bill Ward in concert than a metronomic
replacement drummer who plays it safe.
Now that John Bonham and Keith Moon are gone, I think Bill Ward is the last
greatest living rock drummers of all time.
Just some pointless fan gushing. ;)
Seanster
Bill Bernard
>
> Going back to some of the Sabbath albums once again, I noticed that Bill
> Ward sometimes doesn't hit his rolls and fills in perfect time, but that
> really seems to be a real part of the appeal of his drum playing to me. He
> lags just a milli-second behind in time and it can sound sloppy to some
> ears, but it sounds fucking fabulous to me.
I agree with this completely. He's not recognized as a great drummer,
but in my opinion, he is the best one for Sabbath. His sloppy style is
a crucially important element in the Sabbath sound. Sloppiness is
definitely underrated.
> I wonder if it is intentional or if he just can't keep time. It doesn't
> really matter either way because that is Bill Ward's signature sound.
I think it may be a result of learning drums from a "jazz drumming"
perspective where looseness is more acceptible as it adds character
instead of just serving as a metronome. But, at the same time, it's
probably not something he does deliberately or consciously. In some
ways his style seems like more of a brute force approach, not a finesse
one, and for that reason he is frowned upon by schooled drummers. I'm
probably an exception to the rule, but as a drummer myself, I have
certainly tried to incorporate his influence into my own style (i.e. by
adding deliberate sloppiness, or at least not worrying much about it
when it occurs).
It
> seems in his interviews that he is perfectly aware that he can't keep time
> very well and feels that is maybe why he was left out of some of the Sabbath
> "reunions" in the past. He seems to think Tony prefers a "timekeeper"
> drummer to his intricate style.
How unfortunate, if that is really the case.
> Ward also throws in complex stuff in places that you wouldn't normally hear
> more time-oriented drummers doing. It all sounds very jazzy and progressive.
Exactly.
> In many of the songs you really don't feel like he's the rhythmic anchor of
> the song, but is instead playing around, in between, and on top of the bass
> or guitar riffs. That is the real dynamic there, he's part of the sound,
> but not right in the center of it because he is reacting to where they are
> going and where they've been. Really, like a improvisational jazz drummer.
> I know it's really hard to describe this all in words, but it is really
> uncommon for a rock drummer's style.
I think you've done quite a good job of describing it, and I know
exactly what you're thinking, because it's precisely my take on it.
> I finally am convinced that Ward's style
> of playing is *really* an integral part of the band's original musical
> sound. From a musical standpoint, he can sound sloppy at times, but he is
> irreplacable in terms of reproducing the sound they had at their peak. I'd
> rather hear a sloppy adventurous Bill Ward in concert than a metronomic
> replacement drummer who plays it safe.
I couldn't say it better myself. His being an integral part is
definitely more true than in most other rock bands, too.
> Now that John Bonham and Keith Moon are gone, I think Bill Ward is the last
> greatest living rock drummers of all time.
I wouldn't go quite that far. :)
At least not while Neil Peart and Bill Bruford are still around. But
he's definitely one of the most underrated, IMO.
Chris Oberst
sean...@home.net wrote:
> Going back to some of the Sabbath albums once again, I noticed that Bill
> Ward sometimes doesn't hit his rolls and fills in perfect time, but that
> really seems to be a real part of the appeal of his drum playing to me. He
> lags just a milli-second behind in time and it can sound sloppy to some
> ears, but it sounds fucking fabulous to me.
Yes it does. By never really learning to drum "properly", Bill created quite a
style for himself.
> I wonder if it is intentional or if he just can't keep time. It doesn't
> really matter either way because that is Bill Ward's signature sound. It
> seems in his interviews that he is perfectly aware that he can't keep time
> very well and feels that is maybe why he was left out of some of the Sabbath
> "reunions" in the past. He seems to think Tony prefers a "timekeeper"
> drummer to his intricate style.
That may be true, but I've always felt that Geezer sounds better with a more
flexible drummer such as Bill, rather than a more 'time-keeping' drummer like
Vinnie Appice. And one would hope that Geezer has some say in such matters!
> Ward also throws in complex stuff in places that you wouldn't normally hear
> more time-oriented drummers doing. It all sounds very jazzy and progressive.
> In many of the songs you really don't feel like he's the rhythmic anchor of
> the song, but is instead playing around, in between, and on top of the bass
> or guitar riffs. That is the real dynamic there, he's part of the sound,
> but not right in the center of it because he is reacting to where they are
> going and where they've been. Really, like a improvisational jazz drummer.
> I know it's really hard to describe this all in words, but it is really
> uncommon for a rock drummer's style.
It is fairly uncommon in heavy metal, but one need look no further than Keith
Moon or Bill Bruford to see that others have taken some hints from jazz
drummers. Moon, in particular, I have always considered to be Ward's long-lost
twin in that way. They both seemed to "lose themselves" behind the kit and
just play the craziest shit! And, not coincidentally, neither Sabbath nor the
Who ever quite recaptured their groove without these drummers.
> I also noticed this in listening to the recent live MP3's of Lord of This
> World and Faires Wear Boots on Ozzyhead's site (which also proves that all
> AOL users are not idiots). Even though I've always felt this way from a
> sentimental/nostalgic viewpoint, I finally am convinced that Ward's style
> of playing is *really* an integral part of the band's original musical
> sound. From a musical standpoint, he can sound sloppy at times, but he is
> irreplacable in terms of reproducing the sound they had at their peak. I'd
> rather hear a sloppy adventurous Bill Ward in concert than a metronomic
> replacement drummer who plays it safe.
Absolutely. Let's hope that Bill can get his health together in time for the
U.S. tour!
> Now that John Bonham and Keith Moon are gone, I think Bill Ward is the last
> greatest living rock drummers of all time.
Well, I don't know. Neil Peart and Bill Bruford might have *something* to say
about that....
Christopher Oberst
sean...@home.net
>> Now that John Bonham and Keith Moon are gone, I think Bill Ward is the
last
>> greatest living rock drummers of all time.
>
>Well, I don't know. Neil Peart and Bill Bruford might have *something* to
say
>about that....
Bill Bruford and Neil Peart are great rock drummers too. I think of them as
being in a different, more progressive rock class. Stewart Copeland and
Carl Palmer would also fit in that club. Even Cozy Powell and Terry Bozzio,
IMO. They are all great rock drummers from a technical standpoint.
Maybe I should have said greatest living *hard* rock (not metal) drummers.
The , hard drinking, uncaged, Godzilla-stomping,
pound-the-skins-till-they-break type of drummer. Also, that is not a
comment on his present abilities, but more for the musical legacy he
originally laid down in the 70's.
Bill Ward is one of the last of a dying breed, IMO. He has probably gotten
pretty close to being dead at certain times in his life, though.
Of course, "Animal" from The Muppets is still around, though. What's he up
to these days? :)
Seanster
DDP 2000
Forgot about Cozy :)
HittMann98
>Now that John Bonham and Keith Moon are gone, I think Bill Ward is the last
>greatest living rock drummers of all time.
I think you forgot a guy by the name
of Ian Paice.
Tommy Hittmann
HittMann98
>I wouldn't go quite that far. :)
>
>At least not while Neil Peart and Bill Bruford are still around. But
>he's definitely one of the most underrated, IMO.
>
You forgot a guy by the name of Ian Paice.
Tommy Hittmann
HittMann98
>Well, I don't know. Neil Peart and Bill Bruford might have *something* to
>say
>about that....
>
>
So would Ian Paice.
Tommy Hittmann
HittMann98
>Bill Bruford and Neil Peart are great rock drummers too. I think of them as
>being in a different, more progressive rock class. Stewart Copeland and
1 more time, I think a guy by the name of
Ian Paice is someone you forgot.
'
Tommy Hittmann
HittMann98
>Forgot about Cozy :)
Ian Paice was forgotten about.
Tommy Hittmann
Arcanum Magicus
details in technique, etc. But I couldn't help but notice that on Black
Sabbath - Never Say Die {Castle Hendring} that Bil Ward plays like a man
possessed - such passion must only arise from a Shaman who can not only
access the Spirit-World, or astral world of sounds which formulate into
shapes and colours, but mainline it.
Suzanne
¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Pit/1139
Sean Songalia
video and you will see the visual representation of what Suzanne has
described below. He was definitely at the peak of his powers when the film
was shot. It is surprising what he does with what looks to be a fairly
small, conventional drum set.
Seanster
>Arcanum Magicus wrote in message
<27389-36...@newsd-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Raddion
>
>>I wouldn't go quite that far. :)
>>
>>At least not while Neil Peart and Bill Bruford are still around. But
>>he's definitely one of the most underrated, IMO.
>>
>
>
>
So these three guys are better than Bill Ward at his peak? I find that hard to
believe, sorry. Maybe I misinterpreted.....
Raddion
Raddion
>
>Well, I haven't the background in music theory or practice to debate
>Sabbath - Never Say Die {Castle Hendring} that Bil Ward plays like a man
>possessed - such passion must only arise from a Shaman who can not only
>access the Spirit-World, or astral world of sounds which formulate into
>shapes and colours, but mainline it.
>
>Suzanne
Wow. Ye-hesss!!!
Raddion
Who the heck is Ian Paice? Is he any good?
RADDION
Jonathan Cornick
(Raddion) wrote:
yes I think you did. The original poster claimed that Bill Ward was
the only great rock drummer still alive.
Having just seen Deep Purple and ELP, Ian Paice and Carl Palmer definitely
belong on the 'great drummers, still alive' list.
And 'better' is irrelevant, the above mentioned all play in different
styles.
Jonathan
Sean Songalia
>>So these three guys are better than Bill Ward at his peak? I find that
hard to
>>believe, sorry. Maybe I misinterpreted.....
>> Raddion
>
>yes I think you did. The original poster claimed that Bill Ward was
>the only great rock drummer still alive.
>
>Having just seen Deep Purple and ELP, Ian Paice and Carl Palmer definitely
>belong on the 'great drummers, still alive' list.
>
>And 'better' is irrelevant, the above mentioned all play in different
>styles.
(Not directly to Jonathan...)
Styles not withstanding, my comments are based only on opinion.
Paice, Palmer, Bruford, Peart, Powell, Bonham, Moon. Dead and alive, all
great rock drummers, and even more not mentioned. We all have our favorites
and yours are going to be different than mine.
It's just an opinion, and I just happen to like Ward the best. :)
Peace,
Seanster
Jonathan Cornick
Songalia" <se...@deltanet.com> wrote:
>Jonathan Cornick wrote in message ...
>
>>>So these three guys are better than Bill Ward at his peak? I find that
>hard to
>>>believe, sorry. Maybe I misinterpreted.....
>>> Raddion
>>
>>yes I think you did. The original poster claimed that Bill Ward was
>>the only great rock drummer still alive.
>>
>>Having just seen Deep Purple and ELP, Ian Paice and Carl Palmer definitely
>>belong on the 'great drummers, still alive' list.
>>
>>And 'better' is irrelevant, the above mentioned all play in different
>>styles.
>
>
>(Not directly to Jonathan...)
>
>Styles not withstanding, my comments are based only on opinion.
of course. As are everyone's, 'best' and 'favourite' are pretty interchangeable
on usenet (or anywhere) as long as that's implicitly understood:)
>Paice, Palmer, Bruford, Peart, Powell, Bonham, Moon. Dead and alive, all
>great rock drummers, and even more not mentioned. We all have our favorites
>and yours are going to be different than mine.
>
>It's just an opinion, and I just happen to like Ward the best. :)
And I like Paice the best :)
Jonathan
Raddion
>
>>It's just an opinion, and I just happen to like Ward the best. :)
>
>And I like Paice the best :)
>
>Jonathan
Hmmm...... what is Paice's best song, and what is Ward's best song? I will
compare the two drummers at their best and then pick the King Of All Drummers,
the Immortal Bill Ward. How you guys can listen to anything other than Sabbath
is beyond me, anyway. I mean I listen to the occasional Motorhead, Kiss or
Hendrix cd's once in awhile.... but not for long! Deep Purple? No offense, but
to me they are kind of a blues-rock band, a tad cooler than Led Zeppelin but a
signifigant notch below Black Sabbath. Why? It's the SONGS, baby! No offense to
Mr. Paice, he's great but if he was that good Tony would have already had him
in the band at one time or another....... ;)
SABBATH FOREVER
RADDION
Jonathan Cornick
(Raddion) wrote:
>>
>>>It's just an opinion, and I just happen to like Ward the best. :)
>>
>>And I like Paice the best :)
>>
>>Jonathan
>
>Hmmm...... what is Paice's best song, and what is Ward's best song?
Paice, just about anything other than the mid 80s. Anything off
Fireball, e.g. the Mule. Probably at his peak around late Mk3 and Mk4, eg
Foxbat live album, and now playing as good as ever. And for more well
known stuff, the intros to 'highway star' and 'woman from tokyo'. But
there's
too much variety to choose a best song.
Ward, Blow on the Jug? ;)
Seriously, I love Bill's playing too. His 'lead' playing is as important to the
classic Sabbath sound as Iommi, Butler or Osbourne. What do you think
of his playing on the 2 new songs?
>I will
>compare the two drummers at their best and then pick the King Of All Drummers,
>the Immortal Bill Ward. How you guys can listen to anything other than Sabbath
>is beyond me, anyway. I mean I listen to the occasional Motorhead, Kiss or
>Hendrix cd's once in awhile.... but not for long!
Getting off topic. Has anyone heard the new Kiss album, I looked at the cover,
there's a song called 'Into the Void' :)
>Deep Purple? No offense, but
>to me they are kind of a blues-rock band, a tad cooler than Led Zeppelin but a
>signifigant notch below Black Sabbath.
ok, I know you're trying to wind me up. But Deep Purple are no more
a blues-rock band than Black Sabbath are. And they are equally cool to Sabbath.
I agree that Zep is sveral notches below though.
>Why? It's the SONGS, baby! No offense to
>Mr. Paice, he's great but if he was that good Tony would have already had him
>in the band at one time or another....... ;)
nah, Tony can only get the Purple/Rainbow rejects not the real deal;) Gillan
is an exception but he was really drunk and only joined Sabbath by accident:)
Jonathan
HittMann98
>
>Who the heck is Ian Paice? Is he any good?
> RADDION
You are kiding right??
Ian Paice from Deep Purple.
Tommy Hitmann
HittMann98
>So these three guys are better than Bill Ward at his peak? I find that hard
>to
>believe, sorry. Maybe I misinterpreted.....
> Raddion
How old are you??
You never heard of Neil Peart, Ian Paice,
or Bill Bruford??
Tommy Hittmann
HittMann98
>Styles not withstanding, my comments are based only on opinion.
>
>great rock drummers, and even more not mentioned. We all have our favorites
>and yours are going to be different than mine.
>
>
fine, but saying Ward is the best is a
different story.
Tommy Hittmann
HittMann98
>Hmmm...... what is Paice's best song, and what is Ward's best song? I will
>compare the two drummers at their best and then pick the King Of All
>Drummers,
>the Immortal Bill Ward. How you guys can listen to anything other than
>Sabbath
>is beyond me, anyway. I mean I listen to the occasional Motorhead, Kiss or
>but
>to me they are kind of a blues-rock band, a tad cooler than Led Zeppelin but
>a
>to
>Mr. Paice, he's great but if he was that good Tony would have already had him
>in the band at one time or another....... ;)
I really think you have to think before
you write something like this. I find this
insulting and shows very little knowledge
of muisc. First of all Zep and DP do not
sound alike at all. DP is a hard rock band,
while Zep is more of a blues rock band.
Also that crack about Tony having him
in the band is also insulting to Ian Paice.
Do you have any idea how big the name
Deep Purple is?? Along side with Sabbath,
Zeppelin and The Who. Do you have any idea how big a band DP has been since
1968?? The songs you, say try listening
to some of the complex patterns of Ian Paice
who makes it sound so good. I really
think you need to find out what music is
all about. If you only listen to Sabbath, and
Motorhead and Kiss, well this shows you
really dont have much knowledge about what
is out there. I dig Sabbth very much, and they
are a great band, but there is other muisc.
There is also other muisc besides DP,
also.
Tommy Hittmann
Tommy Hittmann
HittMann98
>>Who the heck is Ian Paice? Is he any good?
Perfect example, you only listen to
Sabbath, and once in a while Moterhead,
and Kiss. That is why you dont know
who Ian Paice, Neil Peart, Bill Bruford,
Terry Bozio and other great drummers
like these are. Very limited selection
equals little knowledge of some great
muisc you have no idea that is around.
Try expanding a bit. Check out bands
like.
UK
Eleven
Deep Purple
Big Elf
Uncle Slam
Rush
Just to name a short few. Try expanding
your taste a bit.
Tommy Hittmann
Dpbelle
Paice and Ward are worlds apart but equally good. It's like comparing
Blackmore and Iommi on guitar, or Gillan and Osbourne on vocals.
Chris
Jonathan Cornick
hittm...@aol.com (HittMann98) wrote:
Is it 'pick on Raddion' week again already? Boy, time really flies by
as you get older.
Jonathan
Raddion
Jonathan wrote:
>(Raddion) wrote:
>
>>>
>>>>It's just an opinion, and I just happen to like Ward the best. :)
>>>
>>>And I like Paice the best :)
>>>
>>>Jonathan
>>
>>Hmmm...... what is Paice's best song, and what is Ward's best song?
>
>Paice, just about anything other than the mid 80s. Anything off
>Fireball, e.g. the Mule. Probably at his peak around late Mk3 and Mk4, eg
I am more aware of Deep Purple than I have let on, I just abandoned them along
the way, I have streamlined my musical needs. This being a Sabbath newsgroup, I
feel Sabbath should be superior in all ways. In the Deep Purple newsgroup, I
would expect it to be the other way around....
>
>Seriously, I love Bill's playing too. His 'lead' playing is as important to
>the
>classic Sabbath sound as Iommi, Butler or Osbourne. What do you think
>of his playing on the 2 new songs?
>
I have been wearing out the 4 MP3's today, I have been totally won over. It's
great to hear the heaviest band in the world again, I have been waiting since
1978! And Bill's drumming is instantly identifiable, as usual in studio, he is
excellent.
>
>Getting off topic. Has anyone heard the new Kiss album, I looked at the
>cover,
>there's a song called 'Into the Void' :)
I haven't heard the album, but I've heard "Psycho Circus" on the radio and IMO
it kicks ass, sorry all you KISS haters!
>
>>Deep Purple? No offense, but
>>to me they are kind of a blues-rock band, a tad cooler than Led Zeppelin but
>a
>>signifigant notch below Black Sabbath.
>
>ok, I know you're trying to wind me up.
You are more perceptive than some others, I love to do the wind-up!
>But Deep Purple are no more
>a blues-rock band than Black Sabbath are. And they are equally cool to
>Sabbath.
I respect your opinion and I disagree. Doesn't anybody have an open mind like
me?
take care,
RADDION
Raddion
>
>Paice and Ward are worlds apart but equally good. It's like comparing
>Blackmore and Iommi on guitar, or Gillan and Osbourne on vocals.
>
>Chris
>
>
I never looked at it that way. I guess there is room for other bands besides
Sabbath, as long as Sabbath headlines!
Raddion
Raddion
>
>How old are you??
>You never heard of Neil Peart, Ian Paice,
>or Bill Bruford??
>
> Tommy Hittmann
>
>
Well I know Neil Peart and Ian Paice, but not Bruford. Who did he play for? Why
do you insist on dogging Ward his due? I say he was more integral to his band's
success than any of the others you have named, and that right there puts him on
top. Why does that piss you off so much???
RADDION
Jonathan Cornick
(Raddion) wrote:
>
>I am more aware of Deep Purple than I have let on, I just abandoned them along
>the way, I have streamlined my musical needs. This being a Sabbath newsgroup, I
>feel Sabbath should be superior in all ways. In the Deep Purple newsgroup, I
>would expect it to be the other way around....
ok, since we're here I defer to you:)
>>
>>Seriously, I love Bill's playing too. His 'lead' playing is as important to
>>the
>>classic Sabbath sound as Iommi, Butler or Osbourne. What do you think
>>of his playing on the 2 new songs?
>>
>
>I have been wearing out the 4 MP3's today, I have been totally won over. It's
>great to hear the heaviest band in the world again, I have been waiting since
>1978! And Bill's drumming is instantly identifiable, as usual in studio, he is
>excellent.
agreed. Other than possibly the lyrics I love the 2 new songs, and
Ozzy sounds great esp the overdubbed chorus where he sings in completely
different registers. And yes, Bill's drums are excellent.
>>
>>Getting off topic. Has anyone heard the new Kiss album, I looked at the
>>cover,
>>there's a song called 'Into the Void' :)
>
>I haven't heard the album, but I've heard "Psycho Circus" on the radio and IMO
>it kicks ass, sorry all you KISS haters!
I'm not a great Kiss fan, but PC (the track) rocks.
>>
>>>Deep Purple? No offense, but
>>>to me they are kind of a blues-rock band, a tad cooler than Led Zeppelin but
>>a
>>>signifigant notch below Black Sabbath.
>>
>>ok, I know you're trying to wind me up.
>
>You are more perceptive than some others, I love to do the wind-up!
That's what too much Sabbath will do for you, gives you an almost British
sense of humo(u)r ;)
>>But Deep Purple are no more
>>a blues-rock band than Black Sabbath are. And they are equally cool to
>>Sabbath.
>
>I respect your opinion and I disagree. Doesn't anybody have an open mind like
>me?
You know, I listened to Vol4 earlier tonight. When Ozzy sang 'lost in
the wheels of confusion' halfway through the
opening track I caught a glimpse of your 'sacred eight only' nirvana.
But, dammit, I love Purple too much, I guess I'm forever a lost soul:)
Jonathan
DDP 2000
Deep Purple does sing alot of blues-rock songs, I agree, but they do have some
heavy kick ass songs like "Space Truckin" and "Smoke on the Water".
Sean Songalia
>
>Well I know Neil Peart and Ian Paice, but not Bruford. Who did he play for?
Why
>do you insist on dogging Ward his due? I say he was more integral to his
band's
>success than any of the others you have named, and that right there puts
him on
>top. Why does that piss you off so much???
> RADDION
Easy, guys...easy....
Raddion, below is Bill Bruford's biography from the All Music Guide at
http://www.allmusic.com. Check out this amazing site's database. There is a
wealth of knowledge there in ALL kinds of music. It's very comprehensive
and fairly (if not dead-on) accurate. And the most amazing thing is it's
free. Really. They also have an All Movie Guide at
http://www.allmovie.com.
Also check out some Bruford's recordings if you can. He is best know for
adding "color" to a band's rhythm section. And that does not mean he is
black. :)
================
Drummer Bill Bruford is renowned as one of progressive rock's top drummers,
achieving his greatest fame as one of the founding members of Yes in 1968.
In 1972, Bruford left to join a revamped lineup of King Crimson, which
lasted until 1974. He then worked with the group Pavlov's Dog and founded
fusion ensemble UK, which featured guitarist Allan Holdsworth. Bruford
recorded his solo debut, Feels Good to Me, in 1978, with a guest appearance
by Holdsworth; the two then formed the band Bruford, which also included
Dave Stewart (not the Eurythmic) and bassist Jeff Berlin. After several more
albums, Bruford rejoined King Crimson in 1981 and toured with Al DiMeola and
David Torn when that lineup collapsed. He formed his own jazz-rock group,
Bill Bruford's Earthworks, in 1987, soon leaving to join Anderson, Bruford,
Wakeman and Howe in the late '80s and then Yes once more in 1990. He
released another solo album, All Heaven Broke Loose, in 1991. -- Steve Huey,
All-Music
moonflower
> >But Deep Purple are no more
> >a blues-rock band than Black Sabbath are. And they are equally cool to
> >Sabbath.
>
> I respect your opinion and I disagree. Doesn't anybody have an open mind like
> me?
>
> take care,
> RADDION
Raddion, you sound open-minded to me.
I'd like to add this: Black Sabbath, Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin all
have their own merits, in a totally different way. All three bands, had
(Sabbath has) top musicians each with an utterly recognisable sound (now
only considering their most famous line-ups). However, when it comes to
the depth of the songs, the sheer emotion that is sometimes hidden
beneath their melodies' surface and at other moments hits you like a
whip in the face, I'd definitly have to put Deep Purple behind Black
Sabbath (and yes, even behind Led Zeppelin).
So, the Real winner remains in my Bible beyond any doubt The Band In
Black.
Sorry Tommy, but I just feel this way.
Medusa
Torben Askholm
between Beatles and Black Sabbath.
About Bill: From a Technical standpoint he's not much of a drummer whereas
Ian Paice/Peart and Bruford is. I still think he's a cool drummer , though I
like Vinnie Appice better.
-- Torben--
Magic Elf "jazzfusion"
www.magicelf.com
Mindfeed "Brilliant Metal"
www.mindfeed.demon.co.uk/
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Going down damnation alley
it's one hell of a mess
the sky is raining fishes
it's a mutation zoo
I'm going down damnation alley
well good luck to You
!!! Hawkwind '77 !!!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
HittMann98 skrev i meddelelsen
<19980919231219...@ng44.aol.com>...
>
>>>Who the heck is Ian Paice? Is he any good?
>
>Perfect example, you only listen to
>Sabbath, and once in a while Moterhead,
>and Kiss. That is why you dont know
>who Ian Paice, Neil Peart, Bill Bruford,
>Terry Bozio and other great drummers
>like these are. Very limited selection
>equals little knowledge of some great
>muisc you have no idea that is around.
>
>Try expanding a bit. Check out bands
>like.
>
>UK
>Eleven
>Deep Purple
>Big Elf
>Uncle Slam
>Rush
>
>Just to name a short few. Try expanding
>your taste a bit.
>
>
> Tommy Hittmann
Sean Songalia
complete discography.
http://www.tohu-bohu.com/bruford/
Personally, I think Bruford is a great drummer and I like a lot of his
music, especially the stuff he has done with Yes and King Crimson. You must
listen to his work at some time in your life because he is a very
influential drummer. Bruford's projects have been more of a progressive art
rock nature, so I would not place him in the same group as Ward, who is more
of a hard rock drummer, even though there are distinct jazz overtones in
both of their styles. (OPINIONS)
Here are some interesting parallels I've just noted about drummers Bill Ward
and Bill Bruford:
Bruford's drumming with Yes, and Ward's drumming with Black Sabbath, added
significantly to the musical sound and, subsequently, to the success of
these bands. (BIG OPINION)
Like Ward with Black Sabbath, Bruford has been replaced at times in his most
successful project, Yes. (However, Ward sometimes without choice, and
Bruford by choice.)
Like Vinnie Appice who replaced Ward in Black Sabbath, Bruford was replaced
by Alan White, an excellent drummer. (Unlike Ward, however, who became very
reclusive in his time away from Sabbath, Bruford continued to work in other
fairly high-profile projects, most notably King Crimson.)
Appice and White are both very good drummers, but both sounded like fairly
anonymous replacements in Black Sabbath and Yes in comparison to their
predecessors, Ward and Bruford, respectively. (BIGGER OPINION)
Black Sabbath (with Appice) and Yes (with White) never reached the same
artistic or commercial heights that they did when Ward or Bruford where in
them. (BIGGEST OPINION)
Both are Brits and both answer to "Bill". :)
Good night!
Seanster
Raddion
>About Bill: From a Technical standpoint he's not much of a drummer whereas
>Ian Paice/Peart and Bruford is. I still think he's a cool drummer , though I
>like Vinnie Appice better.
>
>-- Torben--
>
>
Yeah, that guy from Hanson is better than Bill too, right?
RADDION
Raddion
Yeah, now I know how Bugs Bunny felt with all those rifles pointed at him!
RADDION
>>Just to name a short few. Try expanding
>>your taste a bit.
>
Raddion
Jonathan wrote:
>
>You know, I listened to Vol4 earlier tonight. When Ozzy sang 'lost in
>the wheels of confusion' halfway through the
>opening track I caught a glimpse of your 'sacred eight only' nirvana.
>
YES! When I hear that passage, my arms, my hands spread out wide, the veins
bulge out in my neck, when I hear that I AM the lead singer for Black Sabbath!
But Jonathan, on Oct. 20th I think we're gonna have to change it to the 'Sacred
Nine'!!!
>
>But, dammit, I love Purple too much, I guess I'm forever a lost soul:)
>
>Jonathan
>
>
What is the hardest rocking, al-the-way-through Deep Purple album?
Machine Head? I remember liking a song called "Child In Time", what album is
that on?
RADDION
Raddion
Moonflower (sigh) wrote:
>Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin all
>have their own merits, in a totally different way. All three bands, had
>(Sabbath has) top musicians each with an utterly recognisable sound (now
>only considering their most famous line-ups).
True enough, these are the Big Three....
>However, when it comes to
>the depth of the songs, the sheer emotion that is sometimes hidden
>beneath their melodies' surface and at other moments hits you like a
>whip in the face, I'd definitly have to put Deep Purple behind Black
>Sabbath (and yes, even behind Led Zeppelin).
>
Sometimes you say in one or two sentences what I have been unable to put into
words for days..... I love this newsgroup!
RADDION
Torben Askholm
I'll let you be the judge of that since you seem to now them so well.
-Torben-
Crawford Lee Seals
>>You never heard of Neil Peart, Ian Paice,
>>or Bill Bruford??
>>
>> Tommy Hittmann
>>
>>
>
Why
>do you insist on dogging Ward his due? I say he was more integral to his
band's
>success than any of the others you have named, and that right there puts
him on
>top. Why does that piss you off so much???
> RADDION
>
Once again, I'll have to jump into the ring and protect my poor, decrepid,
intellectually-outgunned, KISS lovin' friend Raddion. I've waded through
this WHOLE thread, and I don't really see any controversy. Raddion loves
Ward and Hittman doesn't. Big deal. To suggest that he's not as musically
intellectual/well-rounded/knowledgeable/etc as you are, is, well, kinda
condescending to say the least. If you know what you like, you stick with
it. There's nothing wrong with that. Furthermore, you don't really have to
compare Ward to other legends to see his talent. He doesn't need to be
judged in the context of other drummers for an opinion about him to be valid
(and OPINIONS, being subjective, are always valid, even you disagree with
them). He instantly stands out, and his talent is instantly cognizable.
You might as well insinuate I'm musically shallow as well. For example, I
HATE prog. I would rather listen to Hanson than sit through a prog rock
album. This means I can't stand Yes, King Crimson, Genesis, Dream Theater,
Queensryche, and any other band ever considered remotely prog. Man, I'd
take AC/DC over any of this musical masturbation any day of the week.
There, I said it! I just can't stand it. Maybe there is immense talent in
those bands, but to suggest that I must listen to them in order to know
talent is nonsensical. I know what I like. Now, for those who like prog,
don't get all huffy and start flaming me. This was mentioned merely for
illustrative purposes. Prog guys are VERY talented, but they don't float my
boat.
Furthermore, this is all opinion. It's all subjective. If Raddion likes
Ward more, it's perfectly understandable that he would view him as a
"better" drummer than Peart, Bruford, and Paice.
Crawdad
sean...@nospam.home.net
<6u38e5$eab$1...@samsara0.mindspring.com>...
>You might as well insinuate I'm musically shallow as well. For example, I
>HATE prog. I would rather listen to Hanson than sit through a prog rock
>album. This means I can't stand Yes, King Crimson, Genesis, Dream Theater,
>Queensryche, and any other band ever considered remotely prog.
Progressive Rock is an acquired taste and not everyone's cup of tea. Just
because a person doesn't like it does not mean you are musically or
intellectually shallow, though.
It's a lot like Jazz or Classical Music, either you get it or you don't. To
some, Progressive Rock can be maddening, self-indulgent, pretentious and
boring, but it can also be rewarding and stimulating to others. Personally,
it's not something I can listen to for extended periods of time, but I find
it interesting at certain times. Yes, King Crimson, ELP, and Genesis were
some of the primary culprits in creating the 70's Prog Rock movement.
Sometimes it takes time to like the stuff, and sometimes no amount of time
will make you like it. If you never like it, though, it doesn't make you a
worse person. But I think you've got to listen to it first before you can
hate it. Don't limit yourself.
I recommend listening to some of Bruford's work only if you've never heard
his work before. Sometimes it's difficult to hear the talent, though, if
you can't stand the musical context he's placed in. That's understandable,
but I would say not to totally give up on it, though. Some music you may
like in different phases in your life. Maybe try it out at later time. I
listen to lots stuff now that I wouldn't have touched with a ten foot pole a
decade ago. (I just picked up Pure Funk, a 70's funk compilation, which is
now a guilty pleasure). Some other stuff I have to keep going back to after
several years, like Black Sabbath. You can't deny the genius in it and need
to hear that magic occasionally.
So, I'd say expand your horizons and listen to as much music as you can and
base your opinions on your own feelings about the music, not on what someone
tells you. There's a lot of great music and musicians out there in lots of
different musical genres to be appreciated.
So what were we talking about before all this bru-ha-ha started? Oh yeah,
Bill Ward *is* the last greatest living rock drummer. :)
Seanster
Jonathan Cornick
<supe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>You might as well insinuate I'm musically shallow as well. For example, I
>HATE prog. I would rather listen to Hanson than sit through a prog rock
>album. This means I can't stand Yes, King Crimson, Genesis, Dream Theater,
>Queensryche, and any other band ever considered remotely prog. Man, I'd
>take AC/DC over any of this musical masturbation any day of the week.
>There, I said it! I just can't stand it. Maybe there is immense talent in
>those bands, but to suggest that I must listen to them in order to know
>talent is nonsensical. I know what I like. Now, for those who like prog,
>don't get all huffy and start flaming me. This was mentioned merely for
>illustrative purposes. Prog guys are VERY talented, but they don't float my
>boat.
I know what you mean. Listening to Dream Theater and ELP live a few weeks ago,
you can't help but notice how talented they are, but 5 minutes into the
set I ws bored. I just wanted to hear a catchy melody. The most enjoyable
part of ELPs set was Palmer's solo, and I generally hate drum solos.
Deep Purple blew them away (ok, I admit I'm biased), because they have
great riffs/songs and catchy melodies, as well as 5 supremely talented
musicians to play them.
Of my 5 favourite rock bands, four of them Sabbath, Purple, Stones, Queen have
that. Talented, knowledgable musicians who can play complicated arrangements
but realise that in the end you have to have memorable
riffs/melodies/rhythm/songs/choruses etc.
The other is AC/DC because, well, they're AC/DC.
Jonathan
AJessup999
Imagine Bill getting behind the skins for Yes, that's downright comical.
Bill Ward and Black Sabbath, for me, are in a leauge all of their own.
aj
DDP 2000
I think Machine Head is the hardest rocking Purple album. "Child in Time" is on
Purple's 1970 album "In Rock".
-Brian
sean...@nospam.home.net
AJessup999 wrote in message <19980920140849...@ng94.aol.com>...
>
>Imagine Bill getting behind the skins for Yes, that's downright comical.
That would be a big joke. I personally don't think Bill Ward would be able
to keep up! :)
>Bill Ward and Black Sabbath, for me, are in a leauge all of their own.
>
>aj
Absolutely. The comparisons I made were in regards to Ward and Bruford were
for vague similarities in their careers. It had nothing to do with their
musical abilities. Hopefully that was not taken out of context and
construed that I would suggest Bill Ward could ever fit into Yes. ;)
HOWEVER, if I were to pick which of the two was my favorite drummer, Bill
Ward or Bill Bruford, I would pick Bill Ward in an instant. He playing has
far more character.
Sean
Matthias Penzel
<rad...@aol.com> writes
>Hmmm...... what is Paice's best song, and what is Ward's best song? I will
>compare the two drummers at their best and then pick the King Of All Drummers,
>the Immortal Bill Ward.
>Deep Purple? No offense, but
>to me they are kind of a blues-rock band, a tad cooler than Led Zeppelin but a
>signifigant notch below Black Sabbath.
I would not disagree (while rating Led Zep way ahead of Purple), but Ian
Paice's drumming on the opener to the album FIREBALL (was it the title-
track even?) is pretty gobsmackingly amazing, no doubts about it! Just
like Cozy's opening beats to Stargazer, it is very unforgettable for any
aspiring musician (not that drum solos are what matters...).
--
Matthias Penzel
HittMann98
>but not Bruford. Who did he play for? Why
>do you insist on dogging Ward his due? I say he was more integral to his
>band's
>success than any of the others you have named, and that right there puts him
>on
>top. Why does that piss you off so much?
No one is dogging Bill Ward. I really dont
think Bill Ward is up there with Neil Peart,
Carl Palmer, Ian Paice. He is a pretty decent
drummer Bill Ward. I have seen BW many
times with Sabbath dating back to the Sabbath
Bloody Sabbath tour.
Tommy Hittmann
HittMann98
>Progressive Rock is an acquired taste and not everyone's cup of tea. Just
>because a person doesn't like it does not mean you are musically or
>intellectually shallow, though.
>
>
No one ever said anything about
progressive rock. Bill Bruford plays
everything rock, pro.rock, fuison.
But what I do find as a insult is one
someone says Bill Ward is far above
rock drummers such as the great ones
like Ian Paice, Carl Palmer, Cozy
Powell.
There is a difference between saying
Bill Ward is my favorite drummer, then
saying he is such a better drummer
than Ian Paice, or Carl Palmer, or say
Carmine Appice.
>So what were we talking about before all this bru-ha-ha started? Oh yeah,
>Bill Ward *is* the last greatest living rock drummer. :)
>
>
I have seen Bill Ward live many times
with Sabbath, dating back to the SBS
tour. I have seen Ian Paice dating
back to the Machine Head tour.
Sorry, guy but BW is no Ian Paice.
I like Ward's style. He is good for
Sabbath's style. But I have seen him
lose his timing quite a few times.
Tommy Hittmann
HittMann98
>What "Tommy Hittmann" appeared to be doing was
>a) determining on what basis Raddion was saying that Ward was "the best"
>b) realising that Raddion did not have his (Tommy's) in-depth knowledge
>c) pointing this out and saying something to the effect "
I would never say a person is not
allowed to view his or hers opinion or view.
That is not my style. I hate trolling. I
feel I have always had a excellent knowledge
of muisc. This is what I do for a living.
I am a engineer/Producer/mixer and a
drummer and vocalist who played for over
25 years.
I like Bill Ward, dont get me wrong.
Would I say BW is a tight, well balanced
drummer. No, I wouldnt. But Bill's style
has fit BS very well. He is not a bad
drummer by any means.
The problem I have is when someone
says" oh he is the best by far", and has
not half the ROCK drummers around.
There is nothing wrong with saying
BW is my favorite. I do find it insulting
as former drummer when great drummers
like Ian Paice, Carl Palmer, Simon Phillps,
are shown no respect by someone who
really has a very limited knowledge of
what is out there past and present. How
can you say this is the best product when
you have not anything else???
Here is a list just a few of the drummers
still playing at this point of time.
Who I think are in leagues of their own.
Ian Paice
Simon Phillps
Carl Palmer
Terry Bozio
Carmine Appice
Here is a list of drummers who I think
are pretty decent.
Bill Ward
Joey Kramer
Tommy Alldrige (I think that is how it
is spelled).
Bobby Rondenelli
Tommy Hittmann
HittMann98
>The problem I have is when someone
>says" oh he is the best by far", and has
>not half the ROCK drummers around.
Should read has not heard half the rock drummers around.
>Ian Paice
>Simon Phillps
>Carl Palmer
>Terry Bozio
>Carmine Appice
Please add to this list
Neil Peart.
Tommy Hittmann
Crawford Lee Seals
b...@excite.co.uk wrote in message <3605626...@news.thefree.net>...
>On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:50:15 -0000, "Crawford Lee Seals"
><supe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Once again, I'll have to jump into the ring and protect my poor, decrepid,
>>intellectually-outgunned, KISS lovin' friend Raddion. I've waded through
>>this WHOLE thread, and I don't really see any controversy. Raddion loves
>>Ward and Hittman doesn't. Big deal. To suggest that he's not as
musically
>>intellectual/well-rounded/knowledgeable/etc as you are, is, well, kinda
>>condescending to say the least.
>
>What "Tommy Hittmann" appeared to be doing was
>a) determining on what basis Raddion was saying that Ward was "the best"
>b) realising that Raddion did not have his (Tommy's) in-depth knowledge
>that you've not heard of are good, too!"
>
>It is not unreasonable to suggest that if one has heard little or none of a
>particular kind of music then one is not really qualified to dismiss it out
>of hand. This is NOT to say that one has to listen to every recording ever
>made in order to express an opinion - which is all that we can do, anyway!
>
>>If you know what you like, you stick with it. There's nothing wrong with
that.
>hand if you know very little or nothing of it. At the very least you should
>say, as *you* did, I've tried that kind of stuff and it does nothing for
>me. Initially, at least, Raddion's position was somewhat extreme.
>
>We *know* he is a fan! It doesn't mean we have to walk on egg shells.
>
>>Furthermore, you don't really have to compare Ward to other legends to....
>....express an opinion on him, is how I'd've put it!
>
>>He doesn't need to be judged in the context of other drummers for an
>>opinion about him to be valid (and OPINIONS, being subjective, are
>>always valid, even you disagree with them).
>compared if someone is saying that "X is the best" which is what I thought
>happened in this thread....
>
>>He instantly stands out, and his talent is instantly cognizable.
>
>>You might as well insinuate I'm musically shallow as well.
>bands and their constituent members. Tommy wasn't "insinuating" as such, he
>asked some questions of Raddion and got some answers that appeared to
>weaken Raddion's basis for voicing something that perhaps sounded stronger
>than a simple opinion.
>
>>For example, I HATE prog.... I just can't stand it.
>Nothing wrong with that. Seanster makes some useful comments in this regard
>in his related posting.
>
>>Maybe there is immense talent in those bands, but to suggest that I must
listen
>>to them in order to know talent is nonsensical.
>ignoring the context in order to compose a semi-troll <g> methinks.
>
>>Prog guys are VERY talented, but they don't float my boat.
>
>>Furthermore, this is all opinion. It's all subjective.
>though!
>
>>If Raddion likes Ward more, it's perfectly understandable that he would
view him
>>as a "better" drummer than Peart, Bruford, and Paice.
>apologise if I misrepresent him by putting words in his mouth - that Ward
>was best and he (Raddion) did not need to listen to *anyone* else to make
>this judgement. Might as well argue for and against the existence of, oh,
>god....
>
>
>
>B. (Sig changed for topicality!)
>--
>Trollin', trollin' trollin'...
>Keep them posts a-trollin'!
>Write 'em up, send 'em out -
>Raw jibe!
>
Nice post except for the "semi-troll" and "man of straw" references (which,
in my ever so humble opinion were not warranted, but, of course, I'm a bit
biased in that regard). I see everyone's point, including Raddion's. I
don't think he's as musically unknowledgeable as some here would like to
believe. I merely intended to state the obvious: that one does not have to
have even heard of Paice or Bruford in order to say Ward is the greatest
drummer ever. This is largely based on the pure subjectivity of the whole
thing. It may sound like semantics, but it's the truth. The "best" is who
you think is the "best". One may disagree, but it's not like it can be
proven.
Now, perhaps you're wondering what my opinion on Ward is. Well, technically
he's a mess. Live he was often downright sloppy (however, pick up Pitt '74
to hear Ward playing like an incredible, well-oiled machine from hell).
However, Ward was amazingly and wonderfully unorthodox in the studio. He
didn't follow the bass as most drummers do. He just went off on tangents
and could turn on a dime. "Vol. 4" maybe one of the greatest drumming
albums of all time. He is just all over the place. NOBODY could have
pulled that off like Ward. He was a lot like Moon. He has to have room to
work. There must be space in the music in order for him to work. That's why
Born Again and H&H were bad vehicles for him. Sabbath was almost art rock
in some ways. It requires creativity. Metal (which these albums were)
requires a timekeeper. Metal, for it's rantings about personal freedom, is
a very formulaic and regimented type of music that doesn't allow a lot of
freedom in the rhythm section (a general rule --- there's millions of
exceptions). Anyway, I would truly place Ward in the same league as Bonham
(IMO, the greatest drummer of all time) and Moon for creativity. From a
technical standpoint, I think Neil Peart and Mickey Dee (formerly of King
Diamond --- buy "Abigail" or "Them" to hear a metal drummer doing amazing
things) are the two best I listen to on a regular basis. Also, KD's new
drummer on "Voodoo" is one bad sonuvabitch as well.
Other more drummers I like: Les Binks (Priest --- replaced the by
DREADFULLY boring Dave Holland), Clive Burr (Maiden --- replaced by the
DREADFULLY boring Nicko McBrain), John Stanier (Helmet), Brian Downey
(Lizzy), Stewart Copeland (Police --- I would LOVE to see this guy on
Iommi's album instead of Dave Holland), Vinny Colaiuta (Zappa), and Mitch
Mitchell (Hendrix), to name a few.
Drummers I dislike (not as people, just stylistically): Cozy Powell, Alex
VH, Eric Singer, and generally most metal drummers. It's funny, I love
metal, but I hate metal drummers. I don't really like jazz, but I love jazz
oriented drummers.
Crawdad
HittMann98
>Sorry Tommy, but I just feel this way.
Medusa,
You have a right to what ever sounds
best to your ears. I never once said BS
was a better band than DP, or did I ever
say DP was a better band then BS. I
just happened to get pumped more from
DP muisc.
If you look in my collection
of music you will see every BS album
ever recorded and released. I like
Sabbath. I like all the lineups of BS.
But I like the Dio era best. Does it mean
the Dio era was the best Sabbath lineup.
No, not at all. See the differnce.
They both had a tremondus effect
on the music of today. But I
cant see someone saying BW is
such a better drummer than Ian Paice,
or Carl Palmer, or Terry Bozio, when
he never heard of them. There is a
difference between saying I like Bill
Wards drumming best.
Then saying Bill Ward is the best drummer.
Tommy Hittmann
Raddion
>Raddion initially argued to the effect - and I
>apologise if I misrepresent him by putting words in his mouth - that Ward
>was best and he (Raddion) did not need to listen to *anyone* else to make
>this judgement.
Wow! Actually, all I was trying to say was that.... well what I meant was......
look at it this way: If you told me I could have FREE TICKETS to see Deep
Purple, Led Zeppelin, Yes, King Crimson, ELP, Rainbow, Kiss and Metallica all
on the same show, OR I could PAY to see Bill Ward and Black Sabbath.... I would
pick Sabbath 100 times out of 100.
RADDION
Raddion
Crawdad wrote:
>
>Once again, I'll have to jump into the ring and protect my poor, decrepid,
>intellectually-outgunned, KISS lovin' friend Raddion. I've waded through
>this WHOLE thread, and I don't really see any controversy. Raddion loves
>Ward and Hittman doesn't. Big deal. To suggest that he's not as musically
>intellectual/well-rounded/knowledgeable/etc as you are, is, well, kinda
>condescending to say the least.
Thank you my friend, you are always there for me. It's like having a big
brother to- WAIT A MINUTE! What do you mean, "intellectually outgunned, Kiss
lovin' friend Raddion"? Maybe I love Kiss, and maybe I don't... I'm not
tellin!!!
giants giants giants RADDION giants giants
DShezza
>Mickey Dee (formerly of King
>Diamond --- buy "Abigail" or "Them" to hear a metal drummer doing amazing
>things)
Mr Dee currently occupies the seat behind the kit in Motorhead and is one of
the best reasons to see that act. In 95, when they opened for BS, Mickey
illustrated your point nicely b/c he was all over the kit with fills and
dynamics and Cozy Powell (RIP) was like a mechanical bull - predictable, boring
but hard-hitting (actually, CP was kind of awol that night, nothing like he was
when I saw him on the HC tour). Anyway, Mickey Dee is amazing, I'll give you
that. Ian Paice in his prime and on a given night is still MY version of the
best but there's no accounting for taste...
DS
"Mind, Body, Heart & Soul...we've got Rock & Roll...and there's nothing they
can do"
HittMann98
>Wow! Actually, all I was trying to say was that.... well what I meant
>was......
>look at it this way: If you told me I could have FREE TICKETS to see Deep
>Purple, Led Zeppelin, Yes, King Crimson, ELP, Rainbow, Kiss and Metallica all
>on the same show, OR I could PAY to see Bill Ward and Black Sabbath.... I
>would
>pick Sabbath 100 times out of 100.
> RADDION
OK, I get the point that you are a Sabbath
fan. But how can say Bill Ward is the best
rock drummer alive today, when that
is so far from the truth, it is not funny.
There is a difference of saying I like Bill
Wars the best, then saying Bill Ward is
the best rock drummer alive. Man,
it seems you have not heard many drummers.
If Bill Ward is the best drummer alive,
then all the rest of the drummers are pretty
sad. I like BW, he is nothing special but has
a very differnt style, as to almost off time.
If you ever listen to Ian Paice or Carl
Palmer, or Terry Bozio, or Simon Phillps,
or Clive Bunker, well then you will know
what style, timing, tightness, and quickness
are all about. I have seen BW many times
with Sabbath, take my word, by no
means is he the best rock druummer alive.
Tommy Hittmann
moonflower
> Sometimes you say in one or two sentences what I have been unable to put into
> words for days..... I love this newsgroup!
Raddion, you make me blush:-)
Medusa (sometimes Moonflower)
Crawford Lee Seals
DShezza wrote in message <19980920230222...@ng115.aol.com>...
>
>>Mickey Dee (formerly of King
>>Diamond --- buy "Abigail" or "Them" to hear a metal drummer doing amazing
>>things)
>
of
>the best reasons to see that act. In 95, when they opened for BS, Mickey
>illustrated your point nicely b/c he was all over the kit with fills and
>dynamics
I, personally, like a lot of cymbal work. I don't know why, it just really,
really, gets me off (musically of course). That's why I love Peart. Mickey
Dee simply does amazing cymbal work. Few men on this planet have need of a
double bass. It just fucks things up because it's too much. They begin to
ignore the snare, amongst other very important things. Dee and Peart belong
on a double bass. They are everywhere and they never sound the least bit
awkward or overwhelmed.
>and Cozy Powell (RIP) was like a mechanical bull - predictable, boring
>but hard-hitting (actually, CP was kind of awol that night, nothing like he
was
>when I saw him on the HC tour).
I know Cozy's dead and I mean him no disrespect, but as a drummer, I found
him to be the percussion antichrist (it's a joke guys, only a joke). I
would rather listen to Alex VH. I can't stand plodding, bass heavy,
unimaginative metal drumming.
>Anyway, Mickey Dee is amazing, I'll give you
>that. Ian Paice in his prime and on a given night is still MY version of
the
>best but there's no accounting for taste...
Paice is an excellent drummer.
Crawdad
Crawford Lee Seals
HittMann98 wrote in message <19980921020752...@ng13.aol.com>...
>
>>Wow! Actually, all I was trying to say was that.... well what I meant
>>was......
>>look at it this way: If you told me I could have FREE TICKETS to see Deep
>>Purple, Led Zeppelin, Yes, King Crimson, ELP, Rainbow, Kiss and Metallica
all
>>on the same show, OR I could PAY to see Bill Ward and Black Sabbath.... I
>>would
>>pick Sabbath 100 times out of 100.
>> RADDION
>
>OK, I get the point that you are a Sabbath
>fan. But how can say Bill Ward is the best
>rock drummer alive today, when that
>is so far from the truth, it is not funny.
See, this where I initially came into this conversation. There is no
*truth* in something so subjective as "best" (whether it be a cup of coffee
or a drummer). This is where I disagree mightily. If I think Ward's the
best, then he is the best. It's that simple. It can't be proven wrong.
Now, perhaps Ward (from a technical standpoint) isn't the most amazing
drummer. If that were the criteria to judge people by, than Tony Macalpine
is better than Hendrix. Hendrix was a slob. I don't buy that line of
thinking. Never have and never will. Technical prowess ain't worth crap in
my book. I think Angus Young, for my tastes, is better than a lot of
shredders out there. I just like his style more.
>
>There is a difference of saying I like Bill
>Wars the best, then saying Bill Ward is
>the best rock drummer alive.
See, I don't think so. Either one is perfectly valid. I might disagree,
but it's not like I can prove you wrong through some objective standard of
proof.
>Man,
>it seems you have not heard many drummers.
>If Bill Ward is the best drummer alive,
>then all the rest of the drummers are pretty
>sad. I like BW, he is nothing special but has
>a very differnt style, as to almost off time.
Again, this is simply YOUR opinion. Let's face it: it is only an opinion.
This is where I kinda stuck up for Raddion. I think you're almost
belittling his taste. I think it's obvious that you think you know
something that he doesn't. I guess as a metal fan in metal hostile
enviroment, I particularly agitated by arguments in which people seem to
insinuate they're more musically knowledgeable or well-rounded than others.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but this is precisely what your argument looks
like. Y'all just disagree on drummers. Nobody needs to be put down and
nobody needs to be told that their choice is "sad"
>
>If you ever listen to Ian Paice or Carl
>Palmer, or Terry Bozio, or Simon Phillps,
>or Clive Bunker, well then you will know
>what style, timing, tightness, and quickness
>are all about. I have seen BW many times
>with Sabbath, take my word, by no
>means is he the best rock druummer alive.
Once again, OPINION. Raddion doesn't need to take your word on it. Perhaps
Raddion is not well -versed in different drumming styles. If this is the
case (which it's not), his opinion might be premature at worst. However,
it's perfectly conceivable that someone has listened to these men and still
think Ward is better. For some, like myself, technical dexterity and speed
are not as important as flexibility, imagination, quirkiness, creativity,
unpredictability, and other "intangibles".
This is all kind of a silly argument. It's really more philosophical than
anything else. I simply believe all taste is subjective, and therefore
cannot be objectified, quantified, or verified.
Crawdad
HittMann98
> know Cozy's dead and I mean him no disrespect, but as a drummer, I found
>him to be the percussion antichrist (it's a joke guys, only a joke). I
>would rather listen to Alex VH. I can't stand plodding, bass heavy,
>unimaginative metal drumming.
Cozy never was a heavy metal drummer.
From his days with Jeff Beck to Rainbow,
to ELP, to Whitesnake to Sabbath, and all
in between. The guy was a bull behind the drums. He was a thundering drummer.
With a large amount of talent.
Tommy Hittmann
Crawford Lee Seals
HittMann98 wrote in message
<19980921131806...@ng-fa1.aol.com>...
Perhaps Cozy would not have considered himself a "metal" drummer, but he was
undoubtedly a HUGE influence on drummers of the genre. In that regard, I
consider him perhaps the most influential drummer of our time. Bonham and
Moon, for instance, were a bit too quirky to be imitated as easily. IMO,
Cozy was very easily mimicked (and was by thousands of drummers). He
virtually provided the blueprint for metal drumming (much to my chagrin)
with his deep tone, booming double bass, de-emphasis on the snare and high
hat, and emphasis on power over quickness. His shining moment, Rainbow's
"Rising", is classic in it's metal leanings. Perhaps I don't like
"thundering" drummers. I like quick, agile, versatile drummers. I've heard
Cozy in all his incarnations, and was just boring as hell. Again, it's just
a question of personal taste. Metal drumming is all about power and
providing a steady rhythm. I, for one, like a little imagination in my
drumming and much prefer the quickness and quirkiness of Mickey Dee, Neil
Peart, Bill Ward, Ian Paice, and Mitch Mitchell over guys like Cozy (I would
place in this category guys like Alex VH, Eric Singer, and every 80's glam
dude who ever picked up a drum stick ---- eg, Warrant, Poison, Bullet Boys,
ad nauseum). Cozy was simply too predictable.
Crawdad
JCRYIAD
I have to throw in a response to the "prog" references. The downside of "prog"
as a description for certain types of music, is that too many different styles
get thrown into that bin. For many, prog usually refers to Genesis, Yes,
Crimson, etc. Here's the big problem: All these bands are so different it is
just ridiculous to put them all into the same category. In addition, thousands,
YES, THOUSANDS of other groups have attempted more intricate arrangements than
average pop groups and been thrown into the "prog bin".
Here's what is interesting, some prog heads hate ELP for example. They were so
heavy in their early days, and the stage theatrics turn off some people. Others
love it.
Peter Hammill is discussed in the "prog" newsgroup,and he has done all kinds of
music. Those early Van Der Graaf Generator shows were as heavy, MAYBE heavier
than Sabbath shows! So if prog automatically strikes you as Mozartesque, FORGET
IT! There are groups like Can or Faust out of Germany, Heldon or Magma out of
France, Henry Cow or Egg out of the UK, etc. These groups have about as much in
common with Yes or Genesis as The Sex Pistols.
Incidentally, any Sabbath feak should buy Crimson's "USA" live album from '74
as a good example of just how heavy they were. That album is dripping with
heavyness. Any of the late '72 to '74 Crimson sounds about as much like Genesis
as Motorhead.
Now, I personally like 70's Genesis and Yes, but for anybody to rule out the
entire category of "prog", based on those examples, would be
unfortunate, IMO, because there is a lot of music to be heard out there.
I don't know much about Dream Theatre, or any modern prog stuff really, but the
70's was wide open for experiments, and a lot of bands who are sort of thrown
into that bin in retrospect, were really harder than that to define.
JCRyiad
"I don't go for anybody knocking anyone. I can't stand prejudice of any kind"
Ozzy Osbourne
sean...@nospam.home.net
forgotten is Ginger Baker. I was listening to P.I.L.'s "Album" and
remembered that he's had a long, varied career and has been a very
influential rock drummer.
In Cream (with Jack Bruce and Eric Clapton), he was one of the first
drummers in rock to do really long improvisations and also had a heavy jazz
influence in his playing. He's been around so long that I wonder if Ginger
Baker had any influence on Bill Ward's himself, because they both have a
similar approach to the drum set.
I guess one of the last things I heard Baker on was for the the band Masters
of Reality, and the Public Image Limited (PIL) stuff (with John Lydon/Johnny
Rotten and Bill Laswell producing) in the 80's. I still think his best work
was with Cream, though.
Seanster
Chris Oberst
HittMann98 wrote:
> >I wouldn't go quite that far. :)
> >
> >At least not while Neil Peart and Bill Bruford are still around. But
> >he's definitely one of the most underrated, IMO.
> >
>
> You forgot a guy by the name of Ian Paice.
>
You're right. How could I forget Mr. Pace?? Quite the drummer, I agree.
Christopher Oberst
Torben Askholm
sean...@nospam.home.net skrev i meddelelsen
<6u66ii$4...@journal.concentric.net>...
You're so right!!! Ginger is an amazing drummer. You should check out his
solo album "Unseen Rain" featuring Jonas Hellborg on bass and Jens Johansson
on Keyboard/Piano(DIO/Malmsteen/Stratovarius) really weird jazzy stuff with
which showcases his ability to play anything and still maintaining an
unmistakable sound.
--Torben--
P.S His drumming in Baker/Gurvitz Army was also worth a listen.
Matthias Penzel
<supe...@mindspring.com> writes
>Other more drummers I like: Les Binks (Priest --- replaced the by
>DREADFULLY boring Dave Holland),
Do you think it was mere coincidence that the Priest started to really
happen once he got in? I think not; of the drummers with metronomic
precision he is one of the most powerful, and so precise the spot on the
snare has more or less the size of a thumb nail I have once been told by
a roadie. I think I can see Iommi's point when he hired him. Effective
drumming is not only about rolling over 8 toms.
>Clive Burr (Maiden --- replaced by the
>DREADFULLY boring Nicko McBrain),
Wouldn't disagree - although checking Nicko out on one of his drum
clinics is quite an experience; while Burr keeps drowning in his sorrows
elsewhere in earth.
>Brian Downey(Lizzy),
Certainly one of the most underrated drummers in rock; maybe because of
too few appearances outside of Thin Lizzy?
>It's funny, I love
>metal, but I hate metal drummers.
Or is it schizophrenic? ;-]
--
Matthias Penzel
Matthias Penzel
>>Aall I was trying to say was that.... If you told me I could have FREE TICKETS to see Deep
>>Purple, Led Zeppelin, Yes, King Crimson, ELP, Rainbow, Kiss and Metallica all
>>on the same show, OR I could PAY to see Bill Ward and Black Sabbath.... I
>>would
>>pick Sabbath 100 times out of 100.
And HittMann98 replied:
>If you ever listen to Ian Paice or Carl
>Palmer, or Terry Bozio, or Simon Phillps,
>or Clive Bunker, well then you will know
>what style, timing, tightness, and quickness
>are all about.
I have - as a music journalist - actually seen & interviewd the first
four mentioned (Paice, Palmer, Bozzie & Phillips) - all absolutely
incredibly personalities, craftsmen, musicians etc.; but when for the
first time in my life I saw Bill Ward enter the stage at Costa Mesa,
looking like a taxi driver, the only person on that stage who actually
needed the VIP-pass dangling from his neck to certify that he belonged
here... and when he would sit down behind Castillo's drum kit and start
dealing with them drums, going over them with his concrete arms... well
that was something I have since then been longing to witness for more
than a mere three songs.
So sod whoever is better; I guess it's like with anybody's partner, it
is not the Olympic Games, when you're talking about love & passion &
music. all the best etc
--
Matthias Penzel
Jonathan Cornick
<matt...@journo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Brian Downey(Lizzy),
>Certainly one of the most underrated drummers in rock; maybe because of
>too few appearances outside of Thin Lizzy?
Did anyone catch Lizzy on their recent tour (with Sykes singing and
Sykes' bass player Marco Mendoza). Great show at The Forum in London.
Jonathan
Crawford Lee Seals
Matthias Penzel wrote in message ...
>In article <6u4b8p$mht$1...@camel25.mindspring.com>, Crawford Lee Seals
><supe...@mindspring.com> writes
>
>>DREADFULLY boring Dave Holland),
>happen once he got in? I think not; of the drummers with metronomic
>precision he is one of the most powerful, and so precise the spot on the
>snare has more or less the size of a thumb nail I have once been told by
>a roadie. I think I can see Iommi's point when he hired him. Effective
>drumming is not only about rolling over 8 toms.
Well my friend, you've just hit at the crux of the issue. When Holland came
in, they didn't "happen". They went totally formulaic in their approach to
metal and lost it, in my ever so humble opinion. I don't think Priest ever
really topped such early works as Sad Wings of Destiny, Stained Class, Hell
Bent for Leather, and Unleashed in the East. Point of Entry marked the
beginning of the end for Priest, as far as my tastes are concerned. After
Screaming for Vengeance, I couldn't listen to them anymore.
As for Holland's talent, well, maybe he possesses great technical talent.
However, this doesn't make him exciting. He's boring. He reminds of the
guy who replaced Moon (Kenny Jones???). Both are talented, but they lacked
the flair and excitement of their predecessors.
>
>>Clive Burr (Maiden --- replaced by the
>>DREADFULLY boring Nicko McBrain),
>Wouldn't disagree - although checking Nicko out on one of his drum
>clinics is quite an experience; while Burr keeps drowning in his sorrows
>elsewhere in earth.
>
>>Brian Downey(Lizzy),
>Certainly one of the most underrated drummers in rock; maybe because of
>too few appearances outside of Thin Lizzy?
>
>>It's funny, I love
>>metal, but I hate metal drummers.
>Or is it schizophrenic? ;-]
Perhaps
Crawdad
DDP 2000
Cozy must have been pretty damn good, since Led Zeppelin considered replacing
Bohnam with Cozy, after Bonham had died. BTW, they also considered...PHIL
COLLINS. UGH.
-Brian
Crawford Lee Seals
Raddion wrote in message <19980921223143...@ng146.aol.com>...
>
>Crawdad wrote:
>>
>>I, personally, like a lot of cymbal work. I don't know why, it just
really,
>>really, gets me off (musically of course).
>
of
>Sabbra Cadabra? Or the way Bill uses a crash like a ride cymbal on Hole In
The
>Sky? The drumming on Sabotage is phenomenal.
>
>>Few men on this planet have need of a
>>double bass.
>
>>I know Cozy's dead and I mean him no disrespect, but as a drummer, I found
>>him to be the percussion antichrist (it's a joke guys, only a joke). I
>>would rather listen to Alex VH. I can't stand plodding, bass heavy,
>>unimaginative metal drumming.
>>
> RADDION
Well, as you know by now, I really don't like metal drumming. However,
within the genre of metal drumming there are those who do it better than
others. Vinnie is an excellent metal drummer. He can be just as heavy as
Cozy, but he uses a lot more fills and is generally much busier than Cozy
was. Unfortunately, Vinnie's style has become much more Cozy-ish over the
years. Much of this may be due to the fact that Dio was playing pretty
basic, and sometimes pretty boring, straight-ahead metal with his solo act.
It's only natural that the drums would follow suit. However, with Sabbath
Vinnie was just phenomenal at times. He is a MUCH better metal ("metal"
being the operative word) drummer than Ward is. By the same token, Vinny
couldn't do "Supernaut" or "St. Vitus' Dance" justice if his life depended
on it. They are two very different drummers. Ward is much more
off-the-cuff and intricate. However, Vinnie's early playing with Sabbath
could be simply amazing at times. He played on a little kit and was busier
than a one-legged man at an ass kicking contest. He put in fills galore and
just added stuff that a typical drummer wouldn't have thrown in. In
addition, he followed the bass line like an eagle follows his prey. He and
Geezer are so in synch on Mob Rules it damn near overwhelms my woofers at
times.
I know I sound like a broken record, but I implore everyone of you who
doesn't believe me, to please seek out the last show of the Mob Rules tour
(Hoffman Estates, Illinois, 1982). Vinnie is sooooooo f***ing good on this
boot that it just makes you see him in an entirely different light. It's a
shame he went on to more straight-ahead metal, because he had the chops and
heaviness to do some pretty amazing things. As I've stated, I don't like
the wankery of prog music, but I appreciate the level of talent that's
required. Vinnie is very well-suited to speedier, yet still heavy, types of
music such as prog where sheer physical dexterity and technical ability are
at a premium. I'd love to hear boots of the recent shows to see if he
reverted back to his old form.
Crawdad
Crawford Lee Seals
Raddion wrote in message <19980921223143...@ng146.aol.com>...
>
>Crawdad wrote:
>>
>>I, personally, like a lot of cymbal work. I don't know why, it just
really,
>>really, gets me off (musically of course).
>
>I know what you mean! How about the sequence of crash cymbals near the end
of
>Sabbra Cadabra? Or the way Bill uses a crash like a ride cymbal on Hole In
The
>Sky? The drumming on Sabotage is phenomenal.
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of "Subdivisions" by Rush.
Neil Peart is just tapping away like crazy during those keyboard runs. His
cymbal work just makes the entire song for me. What he's doing with one
hand, I can't do with two. He is an amazing musician. He possesses so much
pure athletic ability, coordination, and dexterity that it's just
incredible. Furthermore, he's very creative and versatile. I truly believe
he could play anything if he set his mind to it.
Crawdad
Raddion
Crawdad wrote:
>
>I, personally, like a lot of cymbal work. I don't know why, it just really,
>really, gets me off (musically of course).
I know what you mean! How about the sequence of crash cymbals near the end of
Sabbra Cadabra? Or the way Bill uses a crash like a ride cymbal on Hole In The
Sky? The drumming on Sabotage is phenomenal.
>Few men on this planet have need of a
Raddion
Hittman wrote:
>OK, I get the point that you are a Sabbath
>fan. But how can say Bill Ward is the best
>rock drummer alive today, when that
>is so far from the truth, it is not funny.
>
>Wars the best, then saying Bill Ward is
>it seems you have not heard many drummers.
>If Bill Ward is the best drummer alive,
>then all the rest of the drummers are pretty
>sad. I like BW, he is nothing special but has
>a very differnt style, as to almost off time.
>
>Palmer, or Terry Bozio, or Simon Phillps,
>or Clive Bunker, well then you will know
>what style, timing, tightness, and quickness
>with Sabbath, take my word, by no
>means is he the best rock druummer alive.
>
>
>
Dude, I don't have TIME for other drummers. Someday, maybe, but right now it's
all Sabbath all the time! To me, he's not just the BEST drummer alive, he's the
ONLY drummer alive. So you sit there and gaze lovingly at your championship
music collection, and I'll close my eyes and spin around and grab one of the
Eight (soon to be nine!) Discs Of Life, and we'll both be right!!! Love You
Man!!!!
RADDION!!!!!
Raddion
>
>Now, perhaps Ward (from a technical standpoint) isn't the most amazing
>drummer. If that were the criteria to judge people by, than Tony Macalpine
>is better than Hendrix.
Now that is a good analogy!
>I particularly agitated by arguments in which people seem to
>insinuate they're more musically knowledgeable or well-rounded than others.
>Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but this is precisely what your argument looks
>like. Y'all just disagree on drummers. Nobody needs to be put down and
>nobody needs to be told that their choice is "sad"
>
And nobody needs to walk willingly into a Raddion Rope-A-Dope either!!!
>Once again, OPINION. Raddion doesn't need to take your word on it. Perhaps
>Raddion is not well -versed in different drumming styles. If this is the
>case (which it's not), his opinion might be premature at worst.
Raddion has spent many years listening to and playing with many different
drummers. When Bill Ward plays, I can hear and identify every little mistake
(modification?) he makes. It took me awhile to accept this, especially after
working with drummers myself and knowing the frustration of having a drummer
with volatile memory. But this is The Bill Ward Zone, nothing here makes sense.
Iommi, Butler and Ward take turns as timekeepers. Ward is not a "Drummer". You
might as well push him up front with Ozzy and Tony and Geezer. Bill Ward is the
star of the show.
RADDION
Raddion
Nicely put, Matthias! I got goosebumps imagining what that must have been like!
RADDION
summe...@my-dejanews.com
Reality."
In article <6tu2v3$p...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
<sean...@home.net> wrote:
> Going back to some of the Sabbath albums once again, I noticed that Bill
> Ward sometimes doesn't hit his rolls and fills in perfect time, but that
> really seems to be a real part of the appeal of his drum playing to me. He
> lags just a milli-second behind in time and it can sound sloppy to some
> ears, but it sounds fucking fabulous to me.
>
> I wonder if it is intentional or if he just can't keep time. It doesn't
> really matter either way because that is Bill Ward's signature sound. It
> seems in his interviews that he is perfectly aware that he can't keep time
> very well and feels that is maybe why he was left out of some of the Sabbath
> "reunions" in the past. He seems to think Tony prefers a "timekeeper"
> drummer to his intricate style.
>
> Ward also throws in complex stuff in places that you wouldn't normally hear
> more time-oriented drummers doing. It all sounds very jazzy and progressive.
> In many of the songs you really don't feel like he's the rhythmic anchor of
> the song, but is instead playing around, in between, and on top of the bass
> or guitar riffs. That is the real dynamic there, he's part of the sound,
> but not right in the center of it because he is reacting to where they are
> going and where they've been. Really, like a improvisational jazz drummer.
> I know it's really hard to describe this all in words, but it is really
> uncommon for a rock drummer's style.
>
> I also noticed this in listening to the recent live MP3's of Lord of This
> World and Faires Wear Boots on Ozzyhead's site (which also proves that all
> AOL users are not idiots). Even though I've always felt this way from a
> sentimental/nostalgic viewpoint, I finally am convinced that Ward's style
> of playing is *really* an integral part of the band's original musical
> sound. From a musical standpoint, he can sound sloppy at times, but he is
> irreplacable in terms of reproducing the sound they had at their peak. I'd
> rather hear a sloppy adventurous Bill Ward in concert than a metronomic
> replacement drummer who plays it safe.
>
> Now that John Bonham and Keith Moon are gone, I think Bill Ward is the last
> greatest living rock drummers of all time.
>
> Just some pointless fan gushing. ;)
>
> Seanster
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
summe...@my-dejanews.com
ddp...@aol.com (DDP 2000) wrote:
>
>
> Forgot about Cozy :)
>
He said greatest *living* drummer. Cozy Powell died recently.
Matthias Penzel
<supe...@mindspring.com> writes
>>>Other more drummers I like: Les Binks (Priest --- replaced the by
>>>DREADFULLY boring Dave Holland),
>>Do you think it was mere coincidence that the Priest started to really
>>happen once he got in?
>Well my friend, you've just hit at the crux of the issue. When Holland came
>in, they didn't "happen".
8-] !!!
You must be kidding! Opinions & taste, eh?
>They went totally formulaic in their approach to
>metal and lost it, in my ever so humble opinion. I don't think Priest ever
>really topped such early works as Sad Wings of Destiny,
I think their Hendrix admirations and stylistic leanings on that (and
Rocka Rolla) were rather charming, but not always brilliant.
>Stained Class, Hell
>Bent for Leather,
Yep, they were pretty cool, too.
>and Unleashed in the East.
You may know: It should've been ...in the studio.
>Point of Entry marked the
>beginning of the end for Priest,
OK, that was a weak one, but the following double - Screaming... and
Freewheel...? Hngrmpf, I always considered them the ultimate pieces of
vinyl in metal.
>As for Holland's talent, well, maybe he possesses great technical talent.
>However, this doesn't make him exciting. He's boring. He reminds of the
>guy who replaced Moon (Kenny Jones???).
Argh! (mixing anger with a big smile here!).
>Both are talented, but they lacked
>the flair and excitement of their predecessors.
You're absoluitely right about Kenny Jones (and who would disagree on
that one?), but... well, tastes & opinions...
All the best! (Puffy is quite an animal though, isn't he? Possibly the
only person who came up since the mid Eighties who's got superb
technique, loads of power and unique individuality. I would say)
--
Matthias Penzel
Crawford Lee Seals
>>They went totally formulaic in their approach to
>>metal and lost it, in my ever so humble opinion. I don't think Priest
ever
>>really topped such early works as Sad Wings of Destiny,
>I think their Hendrix admirations and stylistic leanings on that (and
>Rocka Rolla) were rather charming, but not always brilliant.
Three words: Victim of Changes.
>
>>Stained Class, Hell
>>Bent for Leather,
>Yep, they were pretty cool, too.
Stained Class is, IMO, one of a handful of certifiable metal classics. I
LOVE that album. I don't think they ever really topped that. Funny, but I
just read an article somewhere (Metal Edge, Metal Maniacs, or some other
strange publication) that was just absolutely gushing about this album, it's
influence, and it's prog leanings.
>
>>and Unleashed in the East.
>You may know: It should've been ...in the studio.
Yeah, I know. It's the same with Lizzy's "Live and Dangerous". I don't
really care, though. It doesn't diminish the enjoyment much for me.
Whatever the technique, they both managed to take previous versions of their
work and monsterize (my own new verb, thank you very much) them.
"Unleashed" is just so damned aggressive and slashing it's mezmerizing.
>
>>Point of Entry marked the
>>beginning of the end for Priest,
>OK, that was a weak one, but the following double - Screaming... and
>Freewheel...? Hngrmpf, I always considered them the ultimate pieces of
>vinyl in metal.
Personally, I like "P.O.E" more than the others you mention. It was much
more interesting lyrically than the albums that came after it. "S.F.V"
ain't bad, but it definitely started gettting that annoying, streamlined,
formulaic 80's metal sound that had been pioneered on "P.O.E.". It sounds
pretty dated. After "SFV", I thought they just went totally 80's cheeseball
metal. It became 35 year old guys making music for 15 year olds.
"Defenders of the Faith" was just terrible. I don't think I ever listened
to them after that (until Jugulator). Jugulator did little to change my
mind. However, they'll be playing down here in Atlanta on October and I
plan on attending to hear the classics.
>All the best! (Puffy is quite an animal though, isn't he? Possibly the
>only person who came up since the mid Eighties who's got superb
>technique, loads of power and unique individuality. I would say)
I regret to say that I'm not all familiar with his work. I always love to
hear good drumming in hard rock. It's a forgotten art form in the genre.
Take Care,
Crawdad
JCRYIAD
>From: ddp...@aol.com (DDP 2000)
>Cozy must have been pretty damn good, since Led Zeppelin considered replacing
>Bohnam with Cozy, after Bonham had died. BTW, they also considered...PHIL
>COLLINS. UGH.
You'd be amazed. Go buy Brand X's Unorthodox Behavior, Morrocan Roll, or any
Genesis 70's album. Collins was a monster. I mean he was a friggin' MONSTER of
the kit. I've heard old Genesis shows where the guy
is just too much. Ask Neil Peart about Phil's drumming.
Ian R Malcomson
>Paice and Ward are worlds apart but equally good. It's like comparing
>Blackmore and Iommi on guitar, or Gillan and Osbourne on vocals.
Easiest way to compare Ward and Paice, IMO, is this. Ward is a more
straightforward, powerful drummer, *driving* the songs, rather than
*playing* them. Paice is technically better, but *plays* rather than
*drives*. Paice in Sabbath would sound somewhat, well, weak, and Ward
in Purple would sound too "basic" and drum-heavy.
Which is why Vinnie Appice (another powerful drummer) stands as a half-
decent replacement for Ward, whereas there was a little something
lacking from the stool when Cozy Powell and Bobby Rondinelli did their
stints on the sticks.
And virtually the same differences apply between Geezer and Neil Murray,
although Geezer *is* a technical bassist. Just a *damn* sight more
powerful than Murray.
--
Ian R Malcomson
"Carry home my broken bones and lay me down to rest,
Forty days of cries and moans, I think I failed to passed the test."
- Rainbow, "LA Connection"
Ian R Malcomson
>Other more drummers I like: Les Binks (Priest --- replaced the by
>DREADFULLY boring Nicko McBrain), John Stanier (Helmet), Brian Downey
>(Lizzy), Stewart Copeland (Police --- I would LOVE to see this guy on
>Iommi's album instead of Dave Holland), Vinny Colaiuta (Zappa), and Mitch
>Mitchell (Hendrix), to name a few.
Hey - I *know* Dave (through the drummer in my own band). He's not all
that bad. :-)
Ian R Malcomson
>Well my friend, you've just hit at the crux of the issue. When Holland came
>metal and lost it, in my ever so humble opinion. I don't think Priest ever
>Bent for Leather, and Unleashed in the East. Point of Entry marked the
>beginning of the end for Priest, as far as my tastes are concerned. After
>Screaming for Vengeance, I couldn't listen to them anymore.
So what about "British Steel"? One of the best Priest LPs going - with
Dave on drums, no less.
DDP 2000
>Dude, I don't have TIME for other drummers. Someday, maybe, but right now
>it's
>all Sabbath all the time! To me, he's not just the BEST drummer alive, he's
>the
>ONLY drummer alive. So you sit there and gaze lovingly at your championship
>music collection, and I'll close my eyes and spin around and grab one of the
>Eight (soon to be nine!) Discs Of Life, and we'll both be right!!! Love You
>Man!!!!
I love Ward and all and think he is a great drummer but he even said himself
that he isn't a drummer, and that the actual only true musician in the band
was Iommi. He says he is just part of the "rythm section" of the band, or
whatever. According to Sabbath's Wheels of Confusion book.
-Brian
Crawford Lee Seals
Ian R Malcomson wrote in message ...
>
>>Well my friend, you've just hit at the crux of the issue. When Holland
came
>>in, they didn't "happen". They went totally formulaic in their approach
to
>>metal and lost it, in my ever so humble opinion. I don't think Priest
ever
>>really topped such early works as Sad Wings of Destiny, Stained Class,
Hell
>>Bent for Leather, and Unleashed in the East. Point of Entry marked the
>>beginning of the end for Priest, as far as my tastes are concerned. After
>>Screaming for Vengeance, I couldn't listen to them anymore.
>
>So what about "British Steel"? One of the best Priest LPs going - with
>Dave on drums, no less.
Whoops, I did kinda forget about that one, didn't I? Well, I never really
loved that album for some reason. I've skipped that one in updating my CD
collection. I do like Grinder and Metal Gods, but it just started to get a
little too 80's metalish for my tastes. I think losing Les had something to
do with it. For some odd reason, I just like Point of Entry more (my fav
album with Dave Holland on drums, followed closely by Screaming for
Vengeance). My personal favs though are Sad Wings, Stained Class, and
Unleashed. Man, those are three absolute classics. I can't get enough of
things like Victim of Changes, Tyrant, Sinner, Exciter, Stained Class,
Invader, White heat red hot, Better by you better than me, Ripper,
Genocide, etc, etc, etc. Now THAT'S rock n roll!
Crawdad
DDP 2000
>He said greatest *living* drummer. Cozy Powell died recently.
>
>
DOH. Sorry, I knew that, just slipped through my mind. I know, I know...the
motercycle accident while being drunk and talking on he cellular phone with his
girlfriend.
-Brian
ALAN GIBSON
Bill Bernard wrote in message <3602C0...@sterlingdi.com>...
>sean...@home.net wrote:
>>
>> Going back to some of the Sabbath albums once again, I noticed that Bill
>> Ward sometimes doesn't hit his rolls and fills in perfect time, but that
>> really seems to be a real part of the appeal of his drum playing to me.
He
>> lags just a milli-second behind in time and it can sound sloppy to some
>> ears, but it sounds fucking fabulous to me.
>
>but in my opinion, he is the best one for Sabbath. His sloppy style is
>a crucially important element in the Sabbath sound. Sloppiness is
>definitely underrated.
>
>> I wonder if it is intentional or if he just can't keep time. It doesn't
>> really matter either way because that is Bill Ward's signature sound.
>perspective where looseness is more acceptible as it adds character
>instead of just serving as a metronome. But, at the same time, it's
>probably not something he does deliberately or consciously. In some
>ways his style seems like more of a brute force approach, not a finesse
>one, and for that reason he is frowned upon by schooled drummers. I'm
>probably an exception to the rule, but as a drummer myself, I have
>certainly tried to incorporate his influence into my own style (i.e. by
>adding deliberate sloppiness, or at least not worrying much about it
>when it occurs).
>
>It
>> seems in his interviews that he is perfectly aware that he can't keep
time
>> very well and feels that is maybe why he was left out of some of the
Sabbath
>> "reunions" in the past. He seems to think Tony prefers a "timekeeper"
>> drummer to his intricate style.
>
>
>> Ward also throws in complex stuff in places that you wouldn't normally
hear
>> more time-oriented drummers doing. It all sounds very jazzy and
progressive.
>
>
>> In many of the songs you really don't feel like he's the rhythmic anchor
of
>> the song, but is instead playing around, in between, and on top of the
bass
>> or guitar riffs. That is the real dynamic there, he's part of the sound,
>> but not right in the center of it because he is reacting to where they
are
>> going and where they've been. Really, like a improvisational jazz
drummer.
>> I know it's really hard to describe this all in words, but it is really
>> uncommon for a rock drummer's style.
>
>exactly what you're thinking, because it's precisely my take on it.
>
>> I finally am convinced that Ward's style
>> of playing is *really* an integral part of the band's original musical
>> sound. From a musical standpoint, he can sound sloppy at times, but he
is
>> irreplacable in terms of reproducing the sound they had at their peak.
I'd
>> rather hear a sloppy adventurous Bill Ward in concert than a metronomic
>> replacement drummer who plays it safe.
>
>definitely more true than in most other rock bands, too.
>
>> Now that John Bonham and Keith Moon are gone, I think Bill Ward is the
last
>> greatest living rock drummers of all time.
>
>
>At least not while Neil Peart and Bill Bruford are still around. But
>he's definitely one of the most underrated, IMO.
>
>>
>> Seanster
what about Ian Paice? He certainly has an instantly recognisable sound and
style.
Matthias Penzel
<supe...@mindspring.com> writes
>>>really topped such early works as Sad Wings of Destiny,
>>I think their Hendrix admirations and stylistic leanings on that (and
>>Rocka Rolla) were rather charming, but not always brilliant.
>
>Three words: Victim of Changes.
OK.
>Stained Class is, IMO, one of a handful of certifiable metal classics.
I have to admit that I haven't listend to this one in ages.
>>All the best! (Puffy is quite an animal though, isn't he? Possibly the
>>only person who came up since the mid Eighties who's got superb
>>technique, loads of power and unique individuality. I would say)
>
>I regret to say that I'm not all familiar with his work. I always love to
>hear good drumming in hard rock. It's a forgotten art form in the genre.
Having been a drummer during the Eighties, I believe the main problem
came with improved drum machines and the bands such as Loverboy who
demonstrated (as little as they have to do with Sabbath and my love for
music) that perfectly sounding hard rock also could have some sort of an
edge - and therefore defining standards that ruled rock; probably until
Guns N' Roses came along and sold 16 million copies of something that
didn't quite follow those guidelines... Still, drummers of a standard
such as Bill Ward's and - more widely respected - John Bonham, Ginger
Baker, Ian Paice and all those others already mentioned in this
discussion, did not really appear since then. They tend to be either
technical and trained and Copeland-fans or just rockers who listened to
loads of Cozy Powell. Somebody who is "jazz-influenced while rocking"
have not quite come up anymore. Puffy, thugh, is different (which is why
Zep [incl. JP Jones] actually did rehearse with him).
bla bla ;-] drummers, they just don't shut up. Another refreshing thing
'bout Bill: he isn't like all the others!
--
Matthias Penzel
Crawford Lee Seals
Raddion wrote in message <19980920222024...@ng113.aol.com>...
> giants giants giants RADDION giants giants
How 'bout them Giants, Raddion? Deion, Deion, Deion, Deion,
Deion......................
Crawdad
Raddion
The triumphant Crawdad wrote:
>
>How 'bout them Giants, Raddion? Deion, Deion, Deion, Deion,
>Deion......................
>
>Crawdad
You know, as I often do, I totally forgot I did that! My name is
Mudd...........:(
RADDION
(see you in the Superbowl)
Raddion
>
>I love Ward and all and think he is a great drummer but he even said himself
>that he isn't a drummer, and that the actual only true musician in the band
>was Iommi. He says he is just part of the "rythm section" of the band, or
>whatever. According to Sabbath's Wheels of Confusion book.
>
>-Brian
>
>
>
feeling he chopped up 5 or six interviews and tried to make it look like 50.
You know what I mean, kind of a cheesy book. Ward is very humble, but he is, in
fact, a real musician. There are plenty of guitarists who will tell you that
Iommi is the least talented member of the band! Why, I don't know, but I have
run into it over and over again. When you think about it, the least talented
member of Black Sabbath was (is) the one holding all the intangibles, and the
one who was ultimately most successful, Ozzy.
Raddion
Maciej
Ian R Malcomson wrote in message ...
Agreed, those rule!
>
>>Hell Bent for Leather, and Unleashed in the East. Point of Entry marked
the
>>beginning of the end for Priest, as far as my tastes are concerned.
average-to-boring songwriting, the title track and Delivering the goods
being very notable exceptions, while Unleashed in the Studios.. can't
remember when I last heard a so-called live album with so many overdubs and
bad editing, plus it is based on a horrible performance. I love Priest as a
live band, but the tour where they recorded UitE sounded awful and Rob's
voice didn't quite recover until Point of Entry (an album lots of brilliant
stuff and some truly awful)
>>After Screaming for Vengeance, I couldn't listen to them anymore.
PoE, SFV, Defenders, Turbo and Priest... Live! more or less defined the 80s
metal sound and established Priest as leaders in the metal genre. I love all
of those albums.
>So what about "British Steel"? One of the best Priest LPs going - with
>Dave on drums, no less.
This is "priest for beginnes".. easy accesible pop tunes like BTL and LAM
and the truly awful "United".. and a few ripping metal tunes thrown in for
good measure (Grinder and The Rage- great tunes!)
JCRYIAD
>From: rad...@aol.com (Raddion)
>There are plenty of guitarists who will tell you that
>Iommi is the least talented member of the band! Why, I don't know, but I have
>run into it over and over again.
Wow Raddion, you should move out of the town you're in because that is beyond
weird.
Any guitar player who couldn't tell Iommi's talent is a guitarist I would bet
against having much of a grasp on their instrument. I've run into very few
people who don't recognize Iommi's talent who have heard him at all. There may
be the occassional guy who doesn't really know his work, and doesn't recognize
the skills Iommi has, but that is different.
With all respect to Bill and Geezer, who are phenomenally talented, Bill's
statement that Tony is the most talented from a musical standpoint is very true
IMO. I would suspect anyone who has learned anything about music theory or
appreciation would recognize that,.unless they have some head-trip about Iommi
that prevents them from doing so.
Mark Devere Davis
JCRYIAD (jcr...@aol.com) writes:
> With all respect to Bill and Geezer, who are phenomenally talented, Bill's
> statement that Tony is the most talented from a musical standpoint is very true
> IMO. I would suspect anyone who has learned anything about music theory or
> appreciation would recognize that,.unless they have some head-trip about Iommi
> that prevents them from doing so.
You really pegged that one! It's so true.I have never encountered any serious
student of guitar who didnt,or couldnt recognize Iommi's talent if given
the chance to actually listen to him.I t5hink they are a few out there who
dont recognize his talent as a lead player,partially because of ignorance
of his whole catalog and partially because they are "hyped" on some other
player or style of playing like Vai or Malmsteen.And then again some
people are just in love with the sound of their own voice and get their
rocks off by pissing on others opinions.
Mark
JCRYIAD
>From: cr...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Mark Devere Davis)
That ignorance of the whole catalog statement is so true. I mean, anybody who
says Iommi is anything less than a fascinating lead player has likely not heard
much beyond Paranoid or Iron Man (both of which have great leads for a 22 year
old in 1970 btw!).
You take a piece like "Lonely is the Word", that is just sheer brilliance. I
mean the fucking
start stops, and intricate little fingerings going on there are exceptional,
and the way he just takes his time building it all up so melodically.
Then you think some half-bake out there would say Iommi isn't a great lead
player!!?
Sometimes there is no justice. Then again, millions are still starving in this
world, and problems exist much bigger than Tony being recognized by 100% of the
public as the genuis he is, so I don't know why I give a damn.........
But I do.
Raddion
>Then you think some half-bake out there would say Iommi isn't a great lead
>player!!?
>Sometimes there is no justice. Then again, millions are still starving in
>this
>world, and problems exist much bigger than Tony being recognized by 100% of
>the
>public as the genuis he is, so I don't know why I give a damn.........
>
>But I do.
>
>
>JCRyiad
Yeah but that's the way it is, not just for Iommi, but the whole band. From the
first guys I ever jammed with, right up to my daughters asshole guitar teacher,
I have had to defend Iommi, maybe it's a New England thing, I dunno. Nowadays,
I guess, the credit is starting to come his way.... hey, you think they'll get
inducted into the Hall? About 180 artists, producers etc., you know, "serious
musician" types will vote on the issue. It says here they get snubbed, but I
hope I'm wrong. Nice to see you back.
RADDION