Satyr and his views on Napster
Xhorder
I just went to the moonfog.com site and Satyr has written an article about
his vision on Napster, I think you would be interested in it...
Personally, I think he forgets some things..
He never mentions that people might get into their music because of
Napster...
A lot of people do that.. I also found a lot of bands that I didn't know of
before
I used Napster... Well.. read it and you now also know what jobs all our
friendly
black metal musicians have... ;-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
I just read an article in the newspaper and it pissed me off! Napster,
a new clever invention ment to serve the sorry computer nerds of the world
and those of you who can't be bothered to think longer further than to
the tip of your nose. I write this article to try to create some
consciousness
on the subject. Internet is a great tool which can be your guide to the
world in a few seconds. E-mail, information, news e.t.c we all know how
convenient that is. The problem is that all things have a darker side.
The internet has many of them. It doesn´t matter what kind of tool you
use if it´s this Napster thing or whatever it still not right. The fact
that it is illegal is not the point, it´s fuckin stupid, that´s the point!
When you download a song or a record without paying for it, you steal
it. It´s a little bit more discrete than shoplifting, but it´s still
theft.
For many of you it feels good to justify it by imagining that you steal
from the big ol´pig at the major label, or like those two sixteenyear
olds in the newspaper said " If you bought the CD, you can still put the
music out on the internet for 24 hours ? Reckons the two boys without
really believing in it themselves" Of course they don´t! Metallica has
showed some courage. They have sued the ass out of anyone stupid enough
to offer their music for free download. Offspring and Dr. Dre on the other
hand would like to encourage you to download music for free. Wow, what
a rebellious attitude they have.., Easy to be a pretender when you´ve
sold so many records that you can live on the royalties for the rest of
your life. For a label like Moonfog or me being a performer in extreme
music it´s simple math. Moonfog is a very selective label, we put out
only the things we stand behind 100% and therefore it is limited to 3-4
releases a year, sometimes even less. We depend upon sales to cover our
costs and to afford the next production which includes, studiotime,
photosession,
graphic design, mastering and miscellaneous costs. And with Satyricon
we need to make at least some money on what we do to buy us time. If we
sell more and make more money, we can concentrate more on the band.
Rehearsing,
writing, touring and so on.
Maybe I shouldn´t take away your glamour picture of being an artist but
it´s true, we do work. "We make a living from our music" Have you heard
it before ? It usually means that they are on social welfare and that
they get some money from the royalties to buy beer and guitar strings.
Money which they don´t report to the tax authorities because it´s so
little
that they just figure that they wouldn´t care anyway. Fuck I work with
Moonfog, Frost does part time shit. I hope they don´t mind me mentioning
them; Samoth works with Nocturnal Art, Shagrath works in some warehouse,
Astennu works at a concert hall, Fenriz works at the post-distribution.
The list goes on. Most of us work.
If we don´t make any money on music, we can´t go touring! We have to stay
home and be faithful to our jobs. To support ourselves. Speaking for
Moonfog,
if people download instead of buying we can´t cover our costs. Then the
bands can´t go in a nice studio to get the sound that they want, they
can´t have a cool looking cover, because we can´t afford it. You decide.
I don´t get it anyway. What´s so cool about having the music coming out
of a dull computer ? Or a copysheet of the cover ? It was bad enough when
they changed from LP to CD, it lost some of the feeling of possession
and ownership back then. But this....is 666 times worse. It´s tight for
those who are the small in the bigger picture and it´s shortminded to
make things even tougher for them. CD-R and cassettes is the same. If
you like the goddamn thing, then buy it. Support what you like, don´t
mess it up. MP-3 and it´s likes will never affect the big ones in a way
that will force them into re-considering their right of existence , but
in the long term it will for the smaller ones. Will the small labels and
band, representatives of extreme art continue to release music if none
will pay for it ? Satyricon would still make music for ourselves, but
you wouldn´t get a copy. I wouldn´t know where to find you. Moonfog of
course could never exist on a non-profitable basis. We have to pay
salary´s
and production costs regularly and with you downloading from your local
dealer on the internet, there is no basis for us to exist. Even metal
magazines. If everybody uses the internet to download music and read about
it there, why do we need magazines ? It´s way more feeling to hold the
magazine in your hand instead of scrolling that thing up and down on your
monitor. When I use the word feeling, I demand that you understand, unless
you´re a stranger of me. A bepimpled(I made that word!) monster from the
planet computernerd.
It is for the benefit of the fans, the musicians and the recordlabels
that we stand behind the things we like and wish to see more of. If you
like the music, buy it.
On behalf of the thinking musician
Satyr from Satyricon
--
Niels 'Xhorder' van Rongen
______________________________________
Official Borknagar site http://www.borknagar.com
H T T P : / / W W W . B O R K N A G A R . C O M
Quintessence, the new Borknagar album.
-------------- Now available! -----------------
supersonicjackhammerfistfuck
BOYCOTT SATYRICON AND MOONFOG RECORDS...except Darkthrone :P
/}
// hat...@fuck-the-skull-of-jesus.mit.edu
/{ /> http://www.hellsfury.net/~hatred/
,__________///----/{___________________________________________________
/|==========|/\|-----/___________________________________________________\
\|==========|\/|-----\___________________________________________________/
'~~~~~~~~~~\\\----\{
\{ \> brett's trader's page :
\\ http://www.hellsfury.net/~hatred/cd-trade.html
\}
Restless Soul
supersonicjackhammerfistfuck <hat...@fuck-the-skull-of-jesus.mit.edu> a
écrit dans le message : 394c6607....@gla-news.tpg.com.au...
Archon
increased profit to the bands.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Nielsen Stud. Polyt. in Informatics at Aalborg
University
E-Mail: arc...@kom.auc.dk (Default)
FuzzyWuzzySteve
replace buying the actual cd's of a band i dont care if i could download the
entire cd if i like the band i'll buy the cd
Martha Hughes
Xhorder <xhorder@"NOSPAM"darkwoodXXXXXXXXXXXX.com> wrote in message
news:GLI25.5690$vJ6.181201@zonnet-reader-1...
Martha Hughes
Restless Soul <nor...@untildeath.hell> wrote in message
news:8iftjg$s0p$1...@wanadoo.fr...
> YEah fuck off to DJ 'Rebel' Satyr
>
metallicrap! Piece of shit!
Nacht1348
trained far too long resulting in anal retentiveness.
Computerized Death Machine
matter. It doesnt really effect me. I can understand his point of view. Most
people that I know would buy the cd if they heard one or two good mp3s from the
album. The ability to download MP3s and being able to listen to a preview of a
track has saved me from making the mistake of buying a really crappy cd and
then selling it to someone else or a used cd store. How is downloading an mp3
any different from borrowing the cd before you listen to it, or hearing it on
the radio (which will never happen where I live)? I think what gets his goat is
the copying of a full cd off the internet. I can agree with that. The majority
of people that I know would much rather have a cd or LP than just a bunch of
crappy MP3s on their computer. I see nothing wrong with encoding a song or two
from an album and passing them out. Sending out an mp3 of one song to your
friends through email is FREE publicity. I wonder how many people went out and
bought a moonfog release because they heard an MP3 they liked of Satyricon,
Darkthrone, Thorns, DHG, etc? I know of at least 3 people who bought the new
Moonfog 2000 compilation because they heard the new Eibon song that I sent out
to them. There's some $$$ in your pocket bro.. (and for the other people that
didnt go out and buy the cd.. so what.. they have an Eibon song to listen to,
and maybe they'll buy the new album)
[ w e e d c o r e d o t c o m ]
www.geocities.com/weedcore2000
Determining whether you are a Homo Sapien Sapien or Homo Sapien Neanderthal
will lead you to a worthwhile discovery of your ancestral past and an insight
into who you are today.
Garth ov Grimraven
>BOYCOTT SATYRICON AND MOONFOG RECORDS...except Darkthrone :P
boycott Satyricon that's for sure (although there terrible music is enough for
me to avoid purchasing the albums). The thing which I found most 'gay' about
this was that "Satyr" is speaking on behalf of all the bands on Moonfag while I
can think of at least 2 bands on the label who have voiced opinions in
opposition to Satyr's. If Satyricon is an "underground" act they should trust
the fans. The underground consists of people who actually have conviction when
it comes to their music, very few people into this music are going to download
an entire album, CDR it, and never purchase the actual album. This just goes
to show us what kind of audience Satyricon attracts, well either that or Satyr
is a stupid paranoid Yid.
Total Death und ColdVoid uber alles!
supersonicjackhammerfistfuck
> Who cares what his views are on napster or mp3s or any one else's for that
> matter. It doesnt really effect me. I can understand his point of view. Most
> people that I know would buy the cd if they heard one or two good mp3s from the
> album. The ability to download MP3s and being able to listen to a preview of a
> track has saved me from making the mistake of buying a really crappy cd and
> then selling it to someone else or a used cd store. How is downloading an mp3
> any different from borrowing the cd before you listen to it, or hearing it on
> the radio (which will never happen where I live)? I think what gets his goat is
> the copying of a full cd off the internet. I can agree with that. The majority
> of people that I know would much rather have a cd or LP than just a bunch of
> crappy MP3s on their computer. I see nothing wrong with encoding a song or two
> from an album and passing them out. Sending out an mp3 of one song to your
> friends through email is FREE publicity. I wonder how many people went out and
> bought a moonfog release because they heard an MP3 they liked of Satyricon,
> Darkthrone, Thorns, DHG, etc? I know of at least 3 people who bought the new
> Moonfog 2000 compilation because they heard the new Eibon song that I sent out
> to them. There's some $$$ in your pocket bro.. (and for the other people that
> didnt go out and buy the cd.. so what.. they have an Eibon song to listen to,
> and maybe they'll buy the new album)
I think that bit in particular has more to do with Moonfog's completely
annoying habit of charging full price for compilations.
Computerized Death Machine
>annoying habit of charging full price for compilations.
Got mine for $12!
John Chedsey
>
> Translation : SATYR == SEMITE.
> BOYCOTT SATYRICON AND MOONFOG RECORDS...except Darkthrone :P
Talk about situational ethics. Hoo boy.
--
============================================
Satan Stole My Teddybear
http://www.chedsey.com
John Chedsey
I understand where Satyr is a bit nervous about technology but that
seems to have more to do with the fact that he doesn't seem to
*understand* the impact of MP3s on music sales. Two different sources
recently have cited that users of mp3s tend to buy more albums after
hearing one or more songs.
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2588369,00.html
The Wall Street Journal also conducted a survey (I'd post a link but you
have to sign up for their online site)
Most every metal fan I know tends to be the type who will still buy the
album at first chance even if they have an entire album on MP3.
Assuming Satyr will bother doing research, he might learn that chances
are his label is *helped* by mp3s, not hurt.
John Chedsey
>
> I have two words for Satyr: SELL OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Eh, I wouldn't go that far. Misinformed, yes. Sell out? Do you
imagine he's living in a mansion, driving a very expensive BMW and
snorting coke off the breasts of nubile young babes? No? Since I seem
to be the only one willing to consider his perspective, I think he fears
that his work put into the label will go for naught because of this
technology which he doesn't understand. That just makes him
reactionary...not a sell out.
John Chedsey
>
> I think that bit in particular has more to do with Moonfog's completely
> annoying habit of charging full price for compilations.
Then don't buy it.
HymenSplitter
>>
>> I think that bit in particular has more to do with Moonfog's completely
>> annoying habit of charging full price for compilations.
>
>Then don't buy it.
Don't be so bitter John, Brett has a valid point. So do you... just don't be so
bitter about it.
>--
>============================================
>Satan Stole My Teddybear
>http://www.chedsey.com
"lying the dormant awaits
Shub-Niggurath
lying the dormant prevails"
HymenSplitter
>it comes to their music, very few people into this music are going to
>download
>an entire album, CDR it, and never purchase the actual album.
Word.
>This just goes
>to show us what kind of audience Satyricon attracts, well either that or
>Satyr
>is a stupid paranoid Yid.
Fuck you, Satyricon are a fuckin killer band (one of the best live bands i've
ever seen too).
John Chedsey
>
> >supersonicjackhammerfistfuck wrote:
> >>
> >> I think that bit in particular has more to do with Moonfog's completely
> >> annoying habit of charging full price for compilations.
> >
> >Then don't buy it.
>
> Don't be so bitter John, Brett has a valid point. So do you... just don't be so
> bitter about it.
I drank bitter coffee for breakfast and a bitter beer after work. What
do you expect?
supersonicjackhammerfistfuck
> >This just goes
> >to show us what kind of audience Satyricon attracts, well either that or
> >Satyr is a stupid paranoid Yid.
> Fuck you, Satyricon are a fuckin killer band (one of the best live bands i've
> ever seen too).
haha. I think he just proved his point.
Bob Witlox
>
> >Translation : SATYR == SEMITE.
> >BOYCOTT SATYRICON AND MOONFOG RECORDS...except Darkthrone :P
>
> me to avoid purchasing the albums). The thing which I found most 'gay' about
> this was that "Satyr" is speaking on behalf of all the bands on Moonfag while I
> can think of at least 2 bands on the label who have voiced opinions in
> opposition to Satyr's. If Satyricon is an "underground" act they should trust
> it comes to their music, very few people into this music are going to download
> to show us what kind of audience Satyricon attracts, well either that or Satyr
> is a stupid paranoid Yid.
If Satyricon were underground enough, their music wouldn't be on
Napster. Ha! :) There would be too few people into it, that the chances
of them being online with their files at the same time are too small.
At least that's what I notice with the music I'm _really_ interested
in. I hardly find anything worthwhile on Napster. Everybody speaks
of Napster, so I got on there as well. Most of the junk is mainstream.
If you're luckily you may find something that's slightly off the usual,
but certainly no obscure/underground stuff. I can imagine the big
companies and big bands shit their pants and get upset. Actually all
the money hungry, industry type bands/labels. I don't care. They're
fighting against things that are changing anyway. If making money
with music is their thing, they better spend their time on thinking
up new schemes to do it.
Satyr also made a funny little complaint, about how they wouldn't
release music anymore if they couldn't earn from it, they would
continue making music but we wouldn't get it, because he can't reach
us. Put it on your website then. We'll reach you. Distributing music
without capital isn't really a problem anymore. But I guess the idea
of distributing your music for free would make Satyr feel very uneasy.
Oh and finally, well put, Brett! :)
-- Bob
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
i . a m / t h e . m e m o r y . o f . a . c r u e l . p a s t
Extraterrestrial Semen Storm
Moonfog 2000 compilation because they heard the new Eibon song that I sent out
to them. There's some $$$ in your pocket bro.. (and for the other people that
didnt go out and buy the cd.. so what.. they have an Eibon song to listen to,
and maybe they'll buy the new album >>
And thanks to you and Cory, I have mp3s of the only couple songs I liked from
that compilation which was the Darkthrone song and new Thorns song. Therefor I
dont have to pay outrageous import prices and go get an IMO and wait 3 months
for an album with 2 songs out of about 12 that I can enjoy. I mean, Im sorry
but Im through with shelling out $20 for a 50 min album with 4 minutes of
intreresting material.. its not in my meager budget. MP3s and CD Burners save
a lot of money when you consider such scenarios.
when - witchwood [the official when web]
www.infernalhorde.com/when
site email - tork...@aol.com
Extraterrestrial Semen Storm
Lets leave Nagash out of this.
Martha Hughes
HymenSplitter <sordid...@aol.comXXX> wrote in message
news:20000617232724...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
> >The underground consists of people who actually have conviction when
> >it comes to their music, very few people into this music are going to
> >download
> >an entire album, CDR it, and never purchase the actual album.
>
>
> >This just goes
> >to show us what kind of audience Satyricon attracts, well either that or
> >Satyr
> >is a stupid paranoid Yid.
>
i've
> ever seen too).
>
west coast portion of their tour, so they could tour Europe with
panterrible!!!!!!! So, I now think they're a rather fucked band!
Martha Hughes
Extraterrestrial Semen Storm <tork...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000618065853...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
LOL!!!!
Martha Hughes
John Chedsey <jo...@chedsey.com> wrote in message
news:394C2EB9...@chedsey.com...
> Martha Hughes wrote:
> >
> > I have two words for Satyr: SELL OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> imagine he's living in a mansion, driving a very expensive BMW and
> snorting coke off the breasts of nubile young babes? No? Since I seem
> to be the only one willing to consider his perspective, I think he fears
> that his work put into the label will go for naught because of this
> technology which he doesn't understand. That just makes him
> reactionary...not a sell out.
>
finishing his US tour. He's choosing to fight against freedom of access for
all on the web, those two things make him a sell out in my book, and combine
that with from what I have heard from friends (in cities where they did
play) about his attitude. He's a rock star now, hoo boy!
Magus Von Sakreth
the original CD. Same goes for CD-R copies. Personally, if I take the
time and patience to download a whole album on my crap 56K connection, I
will definitely spend 25$ or so to purchase the CD. Satyr is a fucking
dumbass. fuck, who knows how many fucking Cds I bought after hearing mp3s
of bands I wasn't familiar with. These same CDs that I would have probably
just looked at the cover in a record store and put it back on the shelf. He
should definitely do some research instead of going around with his little
rock star attitude, pretending that he's making perfect sense when in
reality he's probably on his PC right now logged on to napster!!
"John Chedsey" <jo...@chedsey.com> wrote in message
news:394C2E44...@chedsey.com...
John Chedsey
>
> > Fuck you, Satyricon are a fuckin killer band (one of the best live bands
> i've
> > ever seen too).
> >
> I would have liked to have believed that as well, except they CANCELLED the
> west coast portion of their tour, so they could tour Europe with
> panterrible!!!!!!! So, I now think they're a rather fucked band!
Wasn't that kind of them? They ditched on their Colorado show as well
(which, naturally, is a trend among all European bands, but Satyr didn't
drive the van into th state, much less pull away from the venue). They
were replaced on the bill with...Cephalic Carnage. Joy. Needless to
say I found other things to do that night.
John Chedsey
> > Martha Hughes wrote:
> > >
> > > I have two words for Satyr: SELL OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > imagine he's living in a mansion, driving a very expensive BMW and
> > snorting coke off the breasts of nubile young babes? No? Since I seem
> > to be the only one willing to consider his perspective, I think he fears
> > that his work put into the label will go for naught because of this
> > technology which he doesn't understand. That just makes him
> > reactionary...not a sell out.
> >
> Yes, John, Satyr is a sell out! He chose to tour with panterrible instead of
> finishing his US tour.
That sort of thing happens all the time. Bands jump ship for better
tours more often than Alien (or whatever our buddy is calling himself
today) posts. The end result is that they might alienate a small group
of fans in one spot to gain exposure in front of a somewhat larger group
of fans. Moreover, given that Euro bands find touring the US less than
delightful and that most US booking agents, clubs and venues are
horrendous, of course they'll return to Europe for a better touring
situation. Had they returned to tour with a "true" band, rather than
Pantera, whom it is trendy to bash, you probably wouldn't have said a
peep.
> He's choosing to fight against freedom of access for
> all on the web,
You're overstating this somewhat. He's protecting his business
interests. Of course, I agree he doesn't seem to know what he's talking
about in relation to this issue and his touring bassist Tyr even less
so, but that still doesn't make them a dreaded 'sell out'. Simply
ignorant.
> those two things make him a sell out in my book, and combine
> that with from what I have heard from friends (in cities where they did
> play) about his attitude. He's a rock star now, hoo boy!
Who said only nice guys are allowed to make music? Certainly isn't very
BM of you.
Whodan
Martha Hughes <bast...@worldnet.att.net> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:MgR25.6025$Uw3.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldne
t.att.net...
> I have two words for Satyr: SELL OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who gives a fuck about "sell out"?! Satyricon is more extreme and more
innovative than almost everything else around so I think they deserve all
the money they can get...
If there were no money involved, how many albums / studios / labels / gigs /
instruments / muscians / stores / distros would there be
around????????????????
Should all of us be communists and live in a world with no money...?
/
Whodan
____________________________________________
Apostasia webmagazine: http://www.dark-music.com
+ 46 73 631 35 47 E-mail: who...@telia.com
Black Metal, Death Metal, Darkwave, Gothic, EBM...
Don't forget to leave a message in the new guestbook!
Xhorder
> innovative than almost everything else around so I think they deserve all
> the money they can get...
I don't think he is a sell out... He is just misinformed and believes the
hype
against Napster. As John said.. he must get his facts straight.. as a lot of
people got into his music (and his label) through MP3's...
Yeah.. there are people who copy the whole album.. but most of the time they
buy the normal version when they have the money..
Ok.. I know some shitheads who only download MP3's... But when I confront
them
they know I speak the truth and that they steal money from the artists..
(yes.. that's the way it is people.. even black metal makes money)..
Most money goes into the music, studios, tours, merchandise, instruments
and stuff like that... Guys like Satyr aren't rich Norwegian playboys or
something.. ;-)
> If there were no money involved, how many albums / studios / labels / gigs
/
> instruments / muscians / stores / distros would there be
> around????????????????
Yeah.. you are right.. It's all about the money.. ;-)
But I just wanted to see what kind of reactions this post would get...
.... hehe
John Chedsey
>
> Most money goes into the music, studios, tours, merchandise, instruments
> and stuff like that... Guys like Satyr aren't rich Norwegian playboys or
> something.. ;-)
>
> /
> > instruments / muscians / stores / distros would there be
> > around????????????????
>
>
> But I just wanted to see what kind of reactions this post would get...
> .... hehe
Well if we're lucky we'll get the college art dept dropouts screaming
"It's all about ART!"
They forget that most of history's most treasured works of art were
originally commissioned pieces. And that's essentially what any record
is, regardless of genre. Someone has to pay for the artwork, the studio
time, equipment, mastering, printing, pressing and distribution, and of
course advertising so snide little scenesters can later complain that
they have to 'share' their art with others. Of course any tiny little
label will fear something that, on the surface, might make a dent in
their already slim profit margin. What's the point of running a label,
no matter how much integrity you have, if you release one album and
vanish because you had to deal with the ugly business side of manners
and couldn't hang? Yet, whenever someone makes an effort to protect
that which he/she has built, they are attacked and called sellouts.
Daimon Ahnjeel
> Most every metal fan I know tends to be the type who will still buy the
> album at first chance even if they have an entire album on MP3.
> Assuming Satyr will bother doing research, he might learn that chances
> are his label is *helped* by mp3s, not hurt.
The problem is that there are the idiots out there who will be
happy with their burns. Most of the people that I know that are happy
with just the burns tend to be some of my fellow DJs too, which is
especially stupid on their parts, because, if they really want the
music, and it's current, it's not all that much effort to get a copy.
--
Christ "Daimon" Wagner
ICQ UIN: 2436745
Black Tuesday, A Dark New World
http://www.crosswinds.net/~daimonahnjeel/BlackTuesday/
The Ontario Metal Pages
http://www.crosswinds.net/~daimonahnjeel
Subscribe to the Ontario Metal List today!
http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/ONT-Metal
or
mailto:subscribe...@egroups.com
Daimon Ahnjeel
> I would have liked to have believed that as well, except they CANCELLED the
> west coast portion of their tour, so they could tour Europe with
> panterrible!!!!!!! So, I now think they're a rather fucked band!
Two dates was the entire West Coast portion of the tour? And you
know, I'm sure Satyr had his own reasons for desiding to cancel those
dates. If you lost money because the promoter wouldn't refund it, your
bitch is with the promoter, not the band that cancelled (well in advance
I might add).
Since you obviously hate Satyr so much, why did you want to see his
band play anyways?
Sybren
>Most of the junk is mainstream.
>If you're luckily you may find something that's slightly off the usual,
>but certainly no obscure/underground stuff.
I did try Napster a few months ago and found Septic Flesh "Mystic Places of
Dawn", which had been out of print for years, and some semi-hard to find
Autechre and Biosphere tracks. But indeed, type in "Britney" and you'll
find enough...
Satyr can sleep safely though, Napster isn't really interesting to me
because of my "1 KB/s with timeouts every twenty minutes" internet
connection anyway...
Sybren
--
"Pulchrum Est Paucorum Hominum" - Horatius
Sybren
<xhorder@"NOSPAM"darkwoodXXXXXXXXXXXX.com> wrote:
<Satyr's rant snipped>
Interesting words from someone originating from that nasty Metal
underground where people used to illegally trade tapes. Starting a record
label certainly influences your views apparently.
Sybren
>Eh, I wouldn't go that far. Misinformed, yes. Sell out? Do you
>imagine he's living in a mansion, driving a very expensive BMW and
>snorting coke off the breasts of nubile young babes?
Wasn't he doing that in the "Mother North" video with Monica Bråten, or did
I see that wrong?
Martha Hughes
> Martha Hughes wrote:
> >
> > > Fuck you, Satyricon are a fuckin killer band (one of the best live
bands
> > i've
> > > ever seen too).
> > >
> > I would have liked to have believed that as well, except they CANCELLED
the
> > west coast portion of their tour, so they could tour Europe with
> > panterrible!!!!!!! So, I now think they're a rather fucked band!
>
> (which, naturally, is a trend among all European bands, but Satyr didn't
> drive the van into th state, much less pull away from the venue). They
> were replaced on the bill with...Cephalic Carnage. Joy. Needless to
> say I found other things to do that night.
It just pisses me off. I know that the tour with pantera brought them lots
more money than finishing their commitments would have brought. But it is
about the money? Apparently for Satyr it is.
Martha Hughes
Whodan <who...@telia.com> wrote in message
news:fy735.13963$Za1.2...@newsc.telia.net...
>
> Martha Hughes <bast...@worldnet.att.net> skrev i
>
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:MgR25.6025$Uw3.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldne
> t.att.net...
> > I have two words for Satyr: SELL OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Who gives a fuck about "sell out"?! Satyricon is more extreme and more
> innovative than almost everything else around so I think they deserve all
> the money they can get...
>
> If there were no money involved, how many albums / studios / labels / gigs
/
> instruments / muscians / stores / distros would there be
> around????????????????
>
> Should all of us be communists and live in a world with no money...?
>
All Satyr's words to cancelling a prior commitment of touring the US with a
kick-ass tour because he got a financially better offer from pantera makes
him a sell-out. I think he sucks for it, but if that's what he wants to do,
fine. He is now part of the Mainstream and more power to him, he's just not
part of the extreme metal world now, anymore than pantera is. He sold his
soul and now let him live with it. I certainly
Now, if you actually read what I post and respond to it, fine. If you don't
want to ingest and understand what I've written, that's another thing.
Martha Hughes
Daimon Ahnjeel <daimon...@crosswdins.net> wrote in message
news:394D3DF6...@crosswdins.net...
> Martha Hughes wrote:
> > I would have liked to have believed that as well, except they CANCELLED
the
> > west coast portion of their tour, so they could tour Europe with
> > panterrible!!!!!!! So, I now think they're a rather fucked band!
>
> know, I'm sure Satyr had his own reasons for desiding to cancel those
> dates. If you lost money because the promoter wouldn't refund it, your
> bitch is with the promoter, not the band that cancelled (well in advance
> I might add).
> Since you obviously hate Satyr so much, why did you want to see his
> band play anyways?
>
town to tour with pantera? Be honest now. And I thought it was more than two
dates, btw.
John Chedsey
>
> John Chedsey wrote:
> > Most every metal fan I know tends to be the type who will still buy the
> > album at first chance even if they have an entire album on MP3.
> > Assuming Satyr will bother doing research, he might learn that chances
> > are his label is *helped* by mp3s, not hurt.
>
> The problem is that there are the idiots out there who will be
> happy with their burns. Most of the people that I know that are happy
> with just the burns tend to be some of my fellow DJs too, which is
> especially stupid on their parts, because, if they really want the
> music, and it's current, it's not all that much effort to get a copy.
Well, those people are going to exist in one form or another and always
have. These are the people who taped their friends' albums or stuff off
the radio. Just because a few bad apples exist does not mean that we
should close the door on technology.
John Chedsey
>
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:08:17 GMT, John Chedsey <jo...@chedsey.com> wrote:
>
> >Eh, I wouldn't go that far. Misinformed, yes. Sell out? Do you
> >imagine he's living in a mansion, driving a very expensive BMW and
> >snorting coke off the breasts of nubile young babes?
>
> Wasn't he doing that in the "Mother North" video with Monica Bråten, or did
> I see that wrong?
I don't have a TV so I wouldn't know for sure.
Who is Monica, anyhow?
John Chedsey
>
> What would you think of a supposed extreme band who cancelled a show in your
> town to tour with pantera? Be honest now. And I thought it was more than two
> dates, btw.
Bands do it all the time. Do you know for sure that he made more money
touring with Pantera? Besides, like I pointed out earlier, why bother
touring the US when the venues suck, promoters are crooked and fans are
fairweather (I don't agree with this philosophy, but I understand it)?
Why not spend the time in Europe where they are treated better and tour
under better conditions? Martha, put yourself in his shoes for just a
second and try to understand his perspective.
Besides, who really wants to see Satyricon? It didn't break my heart.
Xhorder
a
> kick-ass tour because he got a financially better offer from pantera makes
> him a sell-out. I think he sucks for it, but if that's what he wants to
do,
> fine. He is now part of the Mainstream and more power to him, he's just
not
> part of the extreme metal world now, anymore than pantera is. He sold his
> soul and now let him live with it. I certainly
The thing with touring is that currently a lot of tours in Europe are not
succesfull.
The tour with Old Man's Child and Gorgoroth recently was one of the worst
tours...
People are to spoiled (I guess.. since bands come every week here.. ;-))) to
visit the
bands live and for bands, venues and labels this is shit because all the
money
they stuck in the tour is gone and
they don't get anything back for it. Bands have to pay too for a tour.. it's
not up to a label only
and hardly any underground band (Satyricon too) makes a profit from
touring... I think
that's why Satyricon preferred coming back to Europe with Pantera... A big
tour
and a lot of people who will visit the show. I think it sucks for a band
when there are only
50 people showing up on a show.. their credability isn't getting better this
way!
Satyricon made the big step.. on tour with a major metal band and every day
a crowd of
5000 people... I can't blame them... they still make unfriendly music for
Pantera-only
fans.. I really don't think they sold out...
Oh.. anyone remember the tour with Iron Maiden and My Dying Bride back in
1995?
I discovered MDB because of that tour.. and I guess me and my friends were
the only
one who liked the band on that show (as everybody just stared to the
stage)...
MDB are still the same band as before that tour... (whetever you like their
last
three albums or not)
Joost de Heer
:> >snorting coke off the breasts of nubile young babes?
:>
:> Wasn't he doing that in the "Mother North" video with Monica Bråten, or did
:> I see that wrong?
:Who is Monica, anyhow?
Norwegian porn star.
Joost
NP: Necrology - General Surgery
--
I am your murdering Angel of Death [Infernal Chorus]
I will despise you until your last breath [ iQ ]
When I cut into you, will you not bleed?
Decidedly you will provide what I need
Dwaallicht
>
> Translation : SATYR == SEMITE.
> BOYCOTT SATYRICON AND MOONFOG RECORDS...except Darkthrone :P
Except Darkthrone, yet excepting 'Ravishing Grimness'.
Maarten
--
ICQ: 3836817
Writings: http://www.student.wau.nl/~maartenj
supersonicjackhammerfistfuck
> Well if we're lucky we'll get the college art dept dropouts screaming
> "It's all about ART!"
>
> They forget that most of history's most treasured works of art were
> originally commissioned pieces. And that's essentially what any record
> is, regardless of genre. Someone has to pay for the artwork, the studio
> time, equipment, mastering, printing, pressing and distribution, and of
> course advertising so snide little scenesters can later complain that
> they have to 'share' their art with others. Of course any tiny little
> label will fear something that, on the surface, might make a dent in
> their already slim profit margin. What's the point of running a label,
> no matter how much integrity you have, if you release one album and
> vanish because you had to deal with the ugly business side of manners
> and couldn't hang? Yet, whenever someone makes an effort to protect
> that which he/she has built, they are attacked and called sellouts.
What a prententious little rant...ironic, considering it rests
completely on the assumption that black/death metal(s) == rock/"entertainment".
Its quite sad (expected, too) that you take that assumption as fact.
Fuck off back to your high ivory tower, dickhead.
/}
// hat...@fuck-the-skull-of-jesus.mit.edu
/{ /> http://www.hellsfury.net/~hatred/
,__________///----/{___________________________________________________
/|==========|/\|-----/___________________________________________________\
\|==========|\/|-----\___________________________________________________/
'~~~~~~~~~~\\\----\{
\{ \> brett's trader's page :
\\ http://www.hellsfury.net/~hatred/cd-trade.html
\}
The Rattler
<xhorder@"NOSPAM"darkwoodXXXXXXXXXXXX.com> says...
> I just read an article in the newspaper and it pissed me off! Napster,
> a new clever invention ment to serve the sorry computer nerds of the world
Heheh, really great way to start an article that you post on your
*WEBSITE*... always be sure to get the audience on your side!
> on the subject. Internet is a great tool which can be your guide to the
> world in a few seconds. E-mail, information, news e.t.c we all know how
> convenient that is. The problem is that all things have a darker side.
I thought Black Metal was all about "the darker side"? ;)
> When you download a song or a record without paying for it, you steal it.
"Err err, when you err, download a err song off err that interweb thing,
err...."
> really believing in it themselves" Of course they don´t! Metallica has
> showed some courage. They have sued the ass out of anyone stupid enough
> to offer their music for free download. Offspring and Dr. Dre on the other
> hand would like to encourage you to download music for free.
Nicely researched... :) Dr Dre is actually quite vocally *anti-
napster*... but never let the facts get in the way of a poorly written
rant... :)
> Maybe I shouldn´t take away your glamour picture of being an artist but
> it´s true, we do work. "We make a living from our music" Have you heard
> it before ?
ARRGH, it's the patented Rock Star Whine tactic!!! Run to the hills!
> that we stand behind the things we like and wish to see more of. If you
> like the music, buy it.
Blah blah blah...
Sad thing is, I actually *agree* with the basic point that mp3 is way out
of hand and people are abusing the technology but it's seeing paranoid
puerile rants like Satyr's/Metallica's/[insert bandwagon jumper of the
week]'s which just detract from the validity of their argument and
succeed in little but making themselves look *REALLY*REALLY* dumb.
--
"Frosty the Snowman
Was peeing against the wind
In a ravenstorm" - 'Immortal Haiku' by Annatar Gorthaur.
*** UNDER THE BANNER OF FNOOGLE WE RIDE! ***
Daimon Ahnjeel
Have you ever tried to DJ with tapes? ;) The main offenders of
usage for CD-R, IMHO, have tended to be DJs - sad but true. Of course,
in this case, if it's a good burn, high quality, etc. it might actually
SAVE the band and label money - they don't have to pay for ANYTHING to
get that CD to the DJ. Just don't tell any of the labels this, because I
personally detest CD-R's for DJing - they scratch easier, tend to have
compatibility problems with the equipment, actually take longer to scan,
etc.
Daimon Ahnjeel
>
> Daimon Ahnjeel <daimon...@crosswdins.net> wrote in message
> news:394D3DF6...@crosswdins.net...
> > Martha Hughes wrote:
> > > I would have liked to have believed that as well, except they CANCELLED
> the
> > > west coast portion of their tour, so they could tour Europe with
> > > panterrible!!!!!!! So, I now think they're a rather fucked band!
> >
> > Two dates was the entire West Coast portion of the tour? And you
> > know, I'm sure Satyr had his own reasons for desiding to cancel those
> > dates. If you lost money because the promoter wouldn't refund it, your
> > bitch is with the promoter, not the band that cancelled (well in advance
> > I might add).
> > Since you obviously hate Satyr so much, why did you want to see his
> > band play anyways?
> >
> town to tour with pantera? Be honest now. And I thought it was more than two
> dates, btw.
All the info I'd gotten was that it was the final 2 dates of the
tour. And to be quite honest, I HAVE seen the like occur. In fact,
except for the past year, extreme bands have tended to avoid my area
like the plague, and simply assume that the fans here will be willing to
cross international borders and drive or fly over 300 miles to see their
shows. I've seen bands get turned away at the border and have to cancel
their shows with only 1 day notice for the promoter and the fans and all
of us who have worked SO hard to promote them, simply because they, or
their label was too fucking lazy to get their paperwork in on time. If
they cancel a show over a month in advance, especially for business
reasons, I'll be a bit upset, but NOT as upset as I have been at bands
who cancel on the day of the show or 2 days in advance because they were
too fucking stupid to do a little bit of advanced planning.
Daimon Ahnjeel
>
> Martha Hughes wrote:
> >
> > What would you think of a supposed extreme band who cancelled a show in your
> > town to tour with pantera? Be honest now. And I thought it was more than two
> > dates, btw.
>
> touring with Pantera? Besides, like I pointed out earlier, why bother
> touring the US when the venues suck, promoters are crooked and fans are
> fairweather (I don't agree with this philosophy, but I understand it)?
> Why not spend the time in Europe where they are treated better and tour
> under better conditions? Martha, put yourself in his shoes for just a
> second and try to understand his perspective.
Plus, I'd assume that in Europe they actually have showers at most
venues... I remember the In Flames tour, I think it was, they were all
giddy with excitement at the thought that the next venue would have a
shower. When was the last time that you went on a tour, got all sweaty
and shit, and didn't even have a shower to wash the crap off you until
after you'd done it 3 more times Martha?
> Besides, who really wants to see Satyricon? It didn't break my heart.
Agreed, while I LOVED the show, the sound quality was absolute
shit, and from what I've heard from other people, it was like that for
the entire tour. Krisiun on the other hand has impressed me both times
I've seen them lately.
Daimon Ahnjeel
> What a prententious little rant...ironic, considering it rests
> completely on the assumption that black/death metal(s) == rock/"entertainment".
> Its quite sad (expected, too) that you take that assumption as fact.
Well then perhaps you would care to share your enlightenment with
us? What is it that makes death and black metal bands above economics?
What is it that makes their studio time free? Their jewel cases free?
Their blank CDs free? Their fucking guitars, amps, kits, and electronics
free? A band is about way more than just the music, when you begin to
think about costs. They need to eat just the same as the rest of us.
Since when does having a message place one above this?
Daimon Ahnjeel
> Oh.. anyone remember the tour with Iron Maiden and My Dying Bride back in
> 1995?
> I discovered MDB because of that tour.. and I guess me and my friends were
> the only
> one who liked the band on that show (as everybody just stared to the
> stage)...
> MDB are still the same band as before that tour... (whetever you like
I don't remember that tour, but I do remember the 96 or 97 tour
where they were supposed to open for Dio... I'm still pissed at that
fucking promoter for not refunding my money - MDB didn't make it across
the border, for whatever reason, and we were never actually told. MDB
was the one reason I went to that show.
Martha Hughes
part of missing the show was missing Krisiun. And while I'm not heartbroken
missing Satyricon, I still think it stinks.
Martha Hughes
> > > Martha Hughes wrote:
> > > > I would have liked to have believed that as well, except they
CANCELLED
> > the
> > > > west coast portion of their tour, so they could tour Europe with
> > > > panterrible!!!!!!! So, I now think they're a rather fucked band!
> > >
> > > Two dates was the entire West Coast portion of the tour? And you
> > > know, I'm sure Satyr had his own reasons for desiding to cancel those
> > > dates. If you lost money because the promoter wouldn't refund it, your
> > > bitch is with the promoter, not the band that cancelled (well in
advance
> > > I might add).
> > > Since you obviously hate Satyr so much, why did you want to see
his
> > > band play anyways?
> > >
your
> > town to tour with pantera? Be honest now. And I thought it was more than
two
> > dates, btw.
>
> tour. And to be quite honest, I HAVE seen the like occur. In fact,
> except for the past year, extreme bands have tended to avoid my area
> like the plague, and simply assume that the fans here will be willing to
> cross international borders and drive or fly over 300 miles to see their
> shows. I've seen bands get turned away at the border and have to cancel
> their shows with only 1 day notice for the promoter and the fans and all
> of us who have worked SO hard to promote them, simply because they, or
> their label was too fucking lazy to get their paperwork in on time. If
> they cancel a show over a month in advance, especially for business
> reasons, I'll be a bit upset, but NOT as upset as I have been at bands
> who cancel on the day of the show or 2 days in advance because they were
> too fucking stupid to do a little bit of advanced planning.
>
fault, is their booking agent's fault for not planning transportation,
passports, etc. ahead of time.
Patrick Singer
> Agreed, while I LOVED the show, the sound quality was absolute
> shit, and from what I've heard from other people, it was like that for
> the entire tour. Krisiun on the other hand has impressed me both times
> I've seen them lately.
Er...when I saw them in Leipzig (tour with Hecate Enthroned and Behemoth))
they had the best live guitar sound ever.
Patrick
--
The Virtual Realms of Vönger [German WebZine]
www.voenger.de
John Chedsey
>
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:49:33 GMT, John Chedsey <jo...@chedsey.com> wrote:
>
> > Well if we're lucky we'll get the college art dept dropouts screaming
> > "It's all about ART!"
> >
> > They forget that most of history's most treasured works of art were
> > originally commissioned pieces. And that's essentially what any record
> > is, regardless of genre. Someone has to pay for the artwork, the studio
> > time, equipment, mastering, printing, pressing and distribution, and of
> > course advertising so snide little scenesters can later complain that
> > they have to 'share' their art with others. Of course any tiny little
> > label will fear something that, on the surface, might make a dent in
> > their already slim profit margin. What's the point of running a label,
> > no matter how much integrity you have, if you release one album and
> > vanish because you had to deal with the ugly business side of manners
> > and couldn't hang? Yet, whenever someone makes an effort to protect
> > that which he/she has built, they are attacked and called sellouts.
>
> completely on the assumption that black/death metal(s) == rock/"entertainment".
> Its quite sad (expected, too) that you take that assumption as fact.
>
I shall not. Face it, your music *has* to dwell within the above world
of reality and if you do not want to face that bands *have* to operate
to a certain degree within that, that is your illusion and dreamland.
Enjoy it there. Unless you can refute what I said, I suggest you take
your tiny little mindset back to your dreamland and enjoy being
"artsy".
And thanks for being the puppethead screaming "IT'S ALL ABOUT ART!"
It's nice to know you still respond when your strings are yanked, my
friend. All you are good for is name calling and pouting.
John Chedsey
>
> John Chedsey <jo...@chedsey.com> writes:
>
> :> >snorting coke off the breasts of nubile young babes?
> :>
> :> Wasn't he doing that in the "Mother North" video with Monica Bråten, or did
> :> I see that wrong?
>
> :Who is Monica, anyhow?
>
> Norwegian porn star.
Ha ha! I thought they were all named Olga....
John Chedsey
>
> supersonicjackhammerfistfuck wrote:
> > What a prententious little rant...ironic, considering it rests
> > completely on the assumption that black/death metal(s) == rock/"entertainment".
> > Its quite sad (expected, too) that you take that assumption as fact.
>
> us? What is it that makes death and black metal bands above economics?
> What is it that makes their studio time free? Their jewel cases free?
> Their blank CDs free? Their fucking guitars, amps, kits, and electronics
> free? A band is about way more than just the music, when you begin to
> think about costs. They need to eat just the same as the rest of us.
> Since when does having a message place one above this?
Brett lives in a dreamland where music comes down from the sky, is
completely free and the artists live in complete isolation from
reality. His only goal is to call people names and tell them they are
lesser beings for pointing out reality. In other words, a troll.
He doesn't seem to get that these bands he supposedly likes are stuck in
the same world as everyone else and that all those things listed above
cost money and thus, they need to be able to recoup their losses
somehow. Hopefully the bands do it in a way that shows integrity and
respect towards the record buying community. Black/death metal *is*
entertainment, a business and still can operate as art. People tend to
be too small minded to realize that these bands can make art that is
true to themselves and handle the fact that it is also a business. And
as history has shown, the majority of great art started out as
commissioned works. Only a blind fool will think that art works totally
independent of money.
If they don't want to involve themselves in the business at all, they
should either stay in their garage and jam and never be heard by anyone
but their moms. *That* is being true.
Garth ov Grimraven
>independent of money.
pure art necessarily exists totally independent of economics. How practical is
this? well...
>
>If they don't want to involve themselves in the business at all, they
>should either stay in their garage and jam and never be heard by anyone
>but their moms. *That* is being true.
this would explain it. However, someone had to pay for guitars, drums, mics,
and amps ;]
so much for idealism...
Total Death und ColdVoid uber alles!
Computerized Death Machine
>What would you think of a supposed extreme band who cancelled a show in your
>town to tour with pantera? Be honest now. And I thought it was more than two
>dates, btw.
>
it was 2 dates, one in San Fran. and one in Corona (LA), I was going to the
Corona one and was pretty bummed to hear that it was cancelled.
[ w e e d c o r e d o t c o m ]
www.geocities.com/weedcore2000
Determining whether you are a Homo Sapien Sapien or Homo Sapien Neanderthal
will lead you to a worthwhile discovery of your ancestral past and an insight
into who you are today.
Xhorder
> Ha ha! I thought they were all named Olga....
No.. those are German porn stars.. ;-)
Patrick Singer
> > Ha ha! I thought they were all named Olga....
> No.. those are German porn stars.. ;-)
No, these are the Russian ones... ;-)
Patrick
--
The Virtual Realms of Vönger
Patrick Singer
> Total Death und ColdVoid uber alles!
By the way, this is one of the linguistically strangest signatures I've ever
seen.
Sharund
Patrick Singer wrote:
Everyone is just passing on the blame on that one ain't they?
Sharund
--
Demon Realm - Wrathful aggressive black metal
mailto:demon...@beer.tj
Dominion Of Demon Realm website
http://www.darkmetal.com/demonrealm/
Subscribe to the Demon Realm newsletter
mailto:demonrealm...@listbot.com
John Chedsey
>
> > Only a blind fool will think that art works totally
> >independent of money.
>
> pure art necessarily exists totally independent of economics. How practical is
> this? well...
There is no such thing as 'pure art' then. Dreamland, baby.
>
> >
> >If they don't want to involve themselves in the business at all, they
> >should either stay in their garage and jam and never be heard by anyone
> >but their moms. *That* is being true.
>
> this would explain it. However, someone had to pay for guitars, drums, mics,
> and amps ;]
> so much for idealism...
The truest band is a jug band who stole the jugs from outside a brewery.
Bring on Grim Jug Black Metal!
Extraterrestrial Semen Storm
Well then perhaps you would care to share your enlightenment with
us? What is it that makes death and black metal bands above economics?
What is it that makes their studio time free?<<
Ummm.. lets see.. back a long time ago when bands had something called "ethics"
and "jobs" they recorded these things called "demos" for "trade" AND "sell"..
There was this thing called the "underground" where "fans/enthusiasts" would
"dub" "tapes" and "trade" them around to other "fans/enthusiasts" to get the
"music" out. Today it seems bands need handouts [?] for incentive to go into
the studio [?] otherwise all the "fans/enthusiasts" wont be blessed with their
"art [entertainment/commodity?]". But that was before bands had CDs released
before they picked up their instruments.
>> Their jewel cases free?<<
oh the inhumanity!
>>Their blank CDs free?>>
let the fans send them CDRs and postage for the recording. Or post the mp3s on
the official website [I hear that Hypocrisy, although I dont like any of their
music, have put ALL of their CDs on their official website in the form of
MP3].. These days Jamal Shakwanda who werks as a fry cook at the sewage plant
can afford a decent computer and there are lots of free internet services.. I
actually dont know anyone with an interest in such that DOES NOT have the
internet.
>> Their fucking guitars, amps, kits, and electronics
free?<<
Oh so we fund their instrumentation fees before they even form a band? I dont
recall anyone ever reimbursing me for my instrument costs for anything I've
wrote or recorded...
>> A band is about way more than just the music, when you begin to
think about costs. They need to eat just the same as the rest of us.<<\\
GET A REAL JOB? Technology is here, try and stop it with tears.
>>Since when does having a message place one above this?
>>
Yeah.. since when does ethics have anything to do with how someone wishes to
distribute their work.....
when - witchwood [the official when web]
www.infernalhorde.com/when
site email - tork...@aol.com
Martha Hughes
Xhorder <xhorder@"NOSPAM"darkwoodXXXXXXXXXXXX.com> wrote in message
news:tUt35.6227$vJ6.196609@zonnet-reader-1...
> > > Norwegian porn star.
> > Ha ha! I thought they were all named Olga....
>
> No.. those are German porn stars.. ;-)
>
>
supersonicjackhammerfistfuck
> > > What a prententious little rant...ironic, considering it rests
> > > completely on the assumption that black/death metal(s) == rock/"entertainment".
> > > Its quite sad (expected, too) that you take that assumption as fact.
> > Well then perhaps you would care to share your enlightenment with
> > us? What is it that makes death and black metal bands above economics?
> > What is it that makes their studio time free? Their jewel cases free?
> > Their blank CDs free? Their fucking guitars, amps, kits, and electronics
> > free? A band is about way more than just the music, when you begin to
> > think about costs. They need to eat just the same as the rest of us.
> > Since when does having a message place one above this?
again, that all works fine for a career rockband. I refuse to put
any further effort into rebuttal of this "point".
> Brett lives in a dreamland where music comes down from the sky, is
> completely free and the artists live in complete isolation from
> reality. His only goal is to call people names and tell them they are
> lesser beings for pointing out reality. In other words, a troll.
You're a cynical fuckhead, who believes the line between art and
product doesn't exist, because you make your living SELLING music.
> He doesn't seem to get that these bands he supposedly likes are stuck in
> the same world as everyone else and that all those things listed above
> cost money and thus, they need to be able to recoup their losses
what a load of defeatist copout bullshit. The number of bands
whose artistic quality has PLUMMETTED since their introduction
to the almighty dollar, is proof itself. Professional musician =
entertainer. Amateur musician = artist. Anyone who disagrees is
simply a lier. Hey John.
> somehow. Hopefully the bands do it in a way that shows integrity and
> respect towards the record buying community. Black/death metal *is*
> entertainment, a business and still can operate as art. People tend to
very, very rare. At any rate, you're now distorting what I said.
If you had half a clue, you'd realise the "==" inferred absolution.
> be too small minded to realize that these bands can make art that is
> true to themselves and handle the fact that it is also a business. And
> as history has shown, the majority of great art started out as
> commissioned works. Only a blind fool will think that art works totally
> independent of money.
Only someone who makes a living from selling music would ever
make a statement like that. YOU ARE PART OF THE MACHINE.
> If they don't want to involve themselves in the business at all, they
> should either stay in their garage and jam and never be heard by anyone
> but their moms. *That* is being true.
Again, fuck off back to your record store. Your opinions are void anyway.
Daimon Ahnjeel
>
> > > Besides, who really wants to see Satyricon? It didn't break my heart.
>
> > Agreed, while I LOVED the show, the sound quality was absolute
> > shit, and from what I've heard from other people, it was like that for
> > the entire tour. Krisiun on the other hand has impressed me both times
> > I've seen them lately.
>
> Er...when I saw them in Leipzig (tour with Hecate Enthroned and Behemoth))
> they had the best live guitar sound ever.
Well, the sound for all the NA shows was kind of muddy, and while I
liked the live mixes of some of the songs (like Blessed From Below), the
overall sound quality was crappy. Plus which, I could hear Satyr's
vocals better from his mouth than from the speakers...
Daimon Ahnjeel
> > I've seen them lately.
> >
> part of missing the show was missing Krisiun. And while I'm not heartbroken
> missing Satyricon, I still think it stinks.
Well, you can still catch Kirisun on the IEMF tour and the Cannibal
Corpse tour in August. After hanging out with all the press at the
Toronto shows, we've all agreed that Krisiun on CD sucks, and that
Krisiun live kicks major ass. :) It's a good thing that they're doing
such extensive North American touring, although, it's getting to the
point where I'm wondering if they want to move to North America, they're
here so much. :)
Daimon Ahnjeel
> > they cancel a show over a month in advance, especially for business
> > reasons, I'll be a bit upset, but NOT as upset as I have been at bands
> > who cancel on the day of the show or 2 days in advance because they were
> > too fucking stupid to do a little bit of advanced planning.
> >
> Yes, I'll agree with you on this. And a lot of times it's not the band's
> fault, is their booking agent's fault for not planning transportation,
> passports, etc. ahead of time.
*nods* And the worst label I've run into for this is Century Media.
CM seems to be really bad in the tour planning department, which is why
I'm always surprised when it's another label's band that has a problem
with the border or whatever, although I can't think of a tour in recent
memory where that's been the case - it's always been the CM band that's
been held up at the border, or not gotten their paperwork in on time.
That's one reason I always prefer it when bands hit Montreal before
Toronto, any delays will have occured for the Montreal show, and we'll
have advance warning if one of the bands got stopped...
Daimon Ahnjeel
>
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:48:54 GMT, John Chedsey <jo...@chedsey.com> wrote:
>
> > > > What a prententious little rant...ironic, considering it rests
> > > > completely on the assumption that black/death metal(s) == rock/"entertainment".
> > > > Its quite sad (expected, too) that you take that assumption as fact.
> > > Well then perhaps you would care to share your enlightenment with
> > > us? What is it that makes death and black metal bands above economics?
> > > What is it that makes their studio time free? Their jewel cases free?
> > > Their blank CDs free? Their fucking guitars, amps, kits, and electronics
> > > free? A band is about way more than just the music, when you begin to
> > > think about costs. They need to eat just the same as the rest of us.
> > > Since when does having a message place one above this?
>
> again, that all works fine for a career rockband. I refuse to put
> any further effort into rebuttal of this "point".
Is it because you couldn't have been bothered to read any further
and see that I was talking about more than just your "career rockband"
people? If you'll look at the original message again, you'll notice that
I mentioned the fact that most of these people have jobs outside of
their bands, but you know, those are generally not the best jobs -
casual labour and temp work is a sad, sad way to make a living,
especially if the band doesn't make enough money to pay for the
equipment, jam space and studio time that they use. Your rebuttal is
nothing more than the brayings of a jackass who refuses to admit that
nobody in this society is above economics.
Daimon Ahnjeel
> >If they don't want to involve themselves in the business at all, they
> >should either stay in their garage and jam and never be heard by anyone
> >but their moms. *That* is being true.
>
> and amps ;]
> so much for idealism...
It's obvious though, their moms paid for their equipment in that
case! ;) They can't get away from being commissioned!
Valkyrie
If they were so extreme they wouldn't give a fuck if someone burned a cd
out of mp3s. The good thing is that people actually are interested and
would take the time to go download the mp3s and burn it into a cd.
Extreme music are for those who make music for themselves and could care
less how much music they sell and how people get their music.
Martha Hughes
> Martha Hughes wrote:
> >
> > Daimon Ahnjeel <daimon...@crosswdins.net> wrote in message
> > > their label was too fucking lazy to get their paperwork in on time. If
> > > they cancel a show over a month in advance, especially for business
> > > reasons, I'll be a bit upset, but NOT as upset as I have been at bands
> > > who cancel on the day of the show or 2 days in advance because they
were
> > > too fucking stupid to do a little bit of advanced planning.
> > >
> > Yes, I'll agree with you on this. And a lot of times it's not the band's
> > fault, is their booking agent's fault for not planning transportation,
> > passports, etc. ahead of time.
>
> *nods* And the worst label I've run into for this is Century Media.
Oh I don't know, I think here in the US there are worse labels. The first
one that comes to mind is Osmose. Relapse isn't much better.
> CM seems to be really bad in the tour planning department, which is why
> I'm always surprised when it's another label's band that has a problem
> with the border or whatever, although I can't think of a tour in recent
> memory where that's been the case - it's always been the CM band that's
> been held up at the border, or not gotten their paperwork in on time.
> That's one reason I always prefer it when bands hit Montreal before
> Toronto, any delays will have occured for the Montreal show, and we'll
> have advance warning if one of the bands got stopped...
>
martyr
"Valkyrie" <chest...@home.com> wrote in message
news:394FCF4D...@home.com...
Do you feel like paying the bills for the time spent making the music?
Sorry,
deny it as you will, but it DOES cost money. If, as you are saying,
everyone
should be able to just download their music, they would make nothing, and
would
NEVER make any music again, who would sign a band making nothing? No income
for the band also means no tours.
Amazing how so many people love to download music without thinking of the
consequences.
Aren't underground fans supposed to be 'thinkers'? This post disgusts me.
Get a job.
John Chedsey
>
> You're a cynical fuckhead, who believes the line between art and
> product doesn't exist, because you make your living SELLING music.
I do? How come I'm not privy to this info?
>
> > He doesn't seem to get that these bands he supposedly likes are stuck in
> > the same world as everyone else and that all those things listed above
> > cost money and thus, they need to be able to recoup their losses
>
> what a load of defeatist copout bullshit. The number of bands
> whose artistic quality has PLUMMETTED since their introduction
> to the almighty dollar, is proof itself. Professional musician =
> entertainer. Amateur musician = artist. Anyone who disagrees is
> simply a lier. Hey John.
Artistic quality is a matter of subjective opinion. What you think
might be plummeting quality might be rising quality to another
listener. That's completely subjective and therefore, not of use to
this discussion.
> Only someone who makes a living from selling music would ever
> make a statement like that. YOU ARE PART OF THE MACHINE.
Again, what's with this idea I sell music?
>
> > If they don't want to involve themselves in the business at all, they
> > should either stay in their garage and jam and never be heard by anyone
> > but their moms. *That* is being true.
>
> Again, fuck off back to your record store. Your opinions are void anyway.
Dood, I sell beer and bar food for a living. Besides, you know as well
as I that my opinion has merit and you simply refuse to acknowledge that
being the embittered little man that you are. Next time, though, please
use some actual facts concerning what I do for a living. I sell no
music nor do I profit from my site. Rather, it costs me money to
maintain it. Thus...I AM AN ARTIST!
Now worship me.
John Chedsey
Word, yo!
Real day jobs suck. That's for sure.
What I don't understand is why an artist or musician is only allowed to
pursue his/her vision as a hobby and is not allowed to have it provide
income. For some reason this idea that people are automatically unable
to be artistic once a dollar is made just makes no sense to me. Just
because *some* people out there are easily corrupted does not mean *all*
people are.
Metal fans are the most contemptable creatures imaginable.
John Chedsey
>
> <<
> Well then perhaps you would care to share your enlightenment with
> us? What is it that makes death and black metal bands above economics?
> What is it that makes their studio time free?<<
>
> and "jobs" they recorded these things called "demos" for "trade" AND "sell"..
So what is being suggested here is that the only way an ethical band to
remain 'pure' is to have an outside job. Why does a musician *have* to
have a day job in order to be 'pure'? Why is a musician's vision
diluted when he is given an opportunity to have all his time free to
make music? Is he, theoretically, going to dilute his music solely to
continue surviving from it? Do all musicians immediately lose
credibility and purity and their music instantly become worthless
because a dollar is made or recouped?
I'm not putting down demos at all, by the way. I'm just suggesting
there may be other methods to this, not one set way.
> There was this thing called the "underground" where "fans/enthusiasts" would
> "dub" "tapes" and "trade" them around to other "fans/enthusiasts" to get the
> "music" out. Today it seems bands need handouts [?] for incentive to go into
> the studio [?] otherwise all the "fans/enthusiasts" wont be blessed with their
> "art [entertainment/commodity?]".
If a musician is not allowed to have incentives, why is he playing
music? If he is not allowed to do what he feels is best for his music,
ie: studio, why is that? I don't think this model is correct for all
musicians to freely pursue their music as they desire.
> But that was before bands had CDs released
> before they picked up their instruments.
Oooh! You just described the tr00 black metal scene!
> let the fans send them CDRs and postage for the recording. Or post the mp3s on
> the official website [I hear that Hypocrisy, although I dont like any of their
> music, have put ALL of their CDs on their official website in the form of
> MP3].. These days Jamal Shakwanda who werks as a fry cook at the sewage plant
> can afford a decent computer and there are lots of free internet services.. I
> actually dont know anyone with an interest in such that DOES NOT have the
> internet.
I disagree 100%. A large number of the fans who are into this sort of
music do not have a computer and access. You seem to be coming from
inside the fishbowl where you are surrounded by people who have computer
access freely, ie: this newsgroup's participants. There are still tons
of fans out there who would be left out if that were the only allowed
model of distribution.
In the case of a those who are more or less bypassing the system (Unsung
Hero comes to mind), more power to them and I think that's a great thing
to do...if that's what they choose.
> >> A band is about way more than just the music, when you begin to
> think about costs. They need to eat just the same as the rest of us.<<\\
>
> GET A REAL JOB? Technology is here, try and stop it with tears.
Back to my original question...is it required to have a real job in
order to be a musician?
>
> >>Since when does having a message place one above this?
> >>
>
> Yeah.. since when does ethics have anything to do with how someone wishes to
> distribute their work.....
I'm not downplaying your model entirely because I can see the rise of
homebrew music being distributed entirely independently of existing
record labels. What I want to know is why *this* model is ethical and
other artist run labels are not.
supersonicjackhammerfistfuck
> > > > > What a prententious little rant...ironic, considering it rests
> > > > > completely on the assumption that black/death metal(s) == rock/"entertainment".
> > > > > Its quite sad (expected, too) that you take that assumption as fact.
> > > > Well then perhaps you would care to share your enlightenment with
> > > > us? What is it that makes death and black metal bands above economics?
> > > > What is it that makes their studio time free? Their jewel cases free?
> > > > Their blank CDs free? Their fucking guitars, amps, kits, and electronics
> > > > free? A band is about way more than just the music, when you begin to
> > > > think about costs. They need to eat just the same as the rest of us.
> > > > Since when does having a message place one above this?
> > again, that all works fine for a career rockband. I refuse to put
> > any further effort into rebuttal of this "point".
> Is it because you couldn't have been bothered to read any further
> and see that I was talking about more than just your "career rockband"
> people? If you'll look at the original message again, you'll notice that
> I mentioned the fact that most of these people have jobs outside of
> their bands, but you know, those are generally not the best jobs -
> casual labour and temp work is a sad, sad way to make a living,
> especially if the band doesn't make enough money to pay for the
uh yeah. Show me where I said anything about 'covering costs', and
I'll concede. I'm talking about career musicians, and those who
create music purely to entertain the masses...as opposed to ART.
the tenure of this thread will remain unchanged, despite the
you-tug-me-while-I-tug-you games you have going with Chedsey.
> equipment, jam space and studio time that they use. Your rebuttal is
> nothing more than the brayings of a jackass who refuses to admit that
> nobody in this society is above economics.
You've never actually bought a demo tape, have you?
"nobody in this society is above economics"? Who are you kidding?
supersonicjackhammerfistfuck
as for the rest, it stands. If not an active part,
you're definitely a advocate and/or beneficiary of "the machine".
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 04:35:22 GMT, John Chedsey <jo...@chedsey.com> wrote:
> Artistic quality is a matter of subjective opinion. What you think
> might be plummeting quality might be rising quality to another
> listener. That's completely subjective and therefore, not of use to
> this discussion.
nice loophole. now hang yourself.
ten...@my-deja.com
Sadly you are right most of them dont think of the consequences or
care. Fuck napster.. i can never find anything good on their and
successfully download it anyway. At least satyr was cool enought o put
samples from all the moonfog CDs on his site.. which is what i want.. i
like to hear a taste before i buy somehting since this kind of music
has no radio play at all.. im still with satyr on this..
Tenebre
>
> Aren't underground fans supposed to be 'thinkers'? This post
disgusts me.
> Get a job.
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dwaallicht
>
> "Valkyrie" <chest...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:394FCF4D...@home.com...
> > Satyricon Extreme? Satyr EXTREME?!?!
> > If they were so extreme they wouldn't give a fuck if someone burned a cd
> > out of mp3s. The good thing is that people actually are interested and
> > would take the time to go download the mp3s and burn it into a cd.
> > Extreme music are for those who make music for themselves and could care
> > less how much music they sell and how people get their music.
>
> Do you feel like paying the bills for the time spent making the music?
> Sorry,
> deny it as you will, but it DOES cost money. If, as you are saying,
> everyone
> should be able to just download their music, they would make nothing, and
> would
> NEVER make any music again, who would sign a band making nothing? No income
> for the band also means no tours.
'it costs money'. The fans will BUY the music anyway. The others are
irrelevant.
> Get a job.
Get laid.
Maarten
--
ICQ: 3836817
Writings: http://www.student.wau.nl/~maartenj
'The message of the Spice Girls, or any other modern pop band, is
basically inline with Nietzsche.'
-- Trage
Extraterrestrial Semen Storm
remain 'pure' is to have an outside job. Why does a musician *have* to
have a day job in order to be 'pure'? >>
Didnt say anything about "purity"... What I'm saying is.. Dont start a band
expecting money.. start a band expecting to play music.. If people bypass the
traditional band/label system stop whining about it and find your income
another way...
<< Why is a musician's vision
diluted when he is given an opportunity to have all his time free to
make music? >>
It isnt always.. But you'd be a fool to think stars dont go nova... I'm merely
saying that one should go into music with a backup plan... That way their
ethics arent comprimised and they wont go into famine when their albums dont
sell...
<< Is he, theoretically, going to dilute his music solely to
continue surviving from it? Do all musicians immediately lose
credibility and purity and their music instantly become worthless
because a dollar is made or recouped? >>
Thats not what happens... Lots of bands make "a dollar", bands that become
solely dependent on that dollar tend to comprimise their ethics to maintain
their living standard [even if they barely make enough to live they seem to
enjoy living off their music more than working a steady job].
<< If a musician is not allowed to have incentives, why is he playing
music?<<
Playing music for the love of it should be incentive enough.. but.. making
music for commercial use [tv commercials, soundtracks, video games, etc.] often
has a commercial function [applied in such a way that the music is being
commissioned for a purpose rather than the music having a lone function of its
own]. Musicians need to learn to live with technology, use it to their
advantage and if it destroys their hopes at living off their music then perhaps
its time to reaccess their goals and ethics. I have no problems with people
living off their music at all, I think its great really, BUT its being
dependent that I see as a lax of responsibility. Its universally known that
music is one of the most difficult career choices out there, technology is
making that increasingly more of a truth when it demands its cultural qualities
rather than its market potential.
>> If he is not allowed to do what he feels is best for his music,
ie: studio, why is that? I don't think this model is correct for all
musicians to freely pursue their music as they desire. >>
Like I said.. dependency shouldnt be a factor in this... If this is a person's
dream then they shouldnt go into such with out thinking it through. Most
people love food, does that mean everyone can be a food critic for their
income? I could think of a million related analogies but I have to go to "work"
in a second.
<< Oooh! You just described the tr00 black metal scene! >>
Which for different reasons than what we are discussing is pretty pitiful.
<< I disagree 100%. A large number of the fans who are into this sort of
music do not have a computer and access. You seem to be coming from
inside the fishbowl where you are surrounded by people who have computer
access freely, ie: this newsgroup's participants. There are still tons
of fans out there who would be left out if that were the only allowed
model of distribution. >>
And I disagree.. The person with a job can afford a decent computer in a matter
of no time.. free internet service providers pop up everyday.. Its just a
matter of effort. I've had friends that cant afford CDs on a regular basis go
through this very same scenario [I paid for mine when I was making a meager pay
check].
<< Back to my original question...is it required to have a real job in
order to be a musician? >>
Again.. if you are dependent on it to eat I'd say yes it is. Otherwise dont
come whining to everyone that they cant afford Ramen noodles because their only
skill is a blast beat.
<< I'm not downplaying your model entirely because I can see the rise of
homebrew music being distributed entirely independently of existing
record labels. What I want to know is why *this* model is ethical and
other artist run labels are not.
>>
Again.. responsibility and thought should be put into one's career decision...
passion counts for a lot, but one has to be willing to make some sacrifices to
exist AND to nurse their passions.
Daimon Ahnjeel
> > > fault, is their booking agent's fault for not planning transportation,
> > > passports, etc. ahead of time.
> >
> > *nods* And the worst label I've run into for this is Century Media.
>
> Oh I don't know, I think here in the US there are worse labels. The first
> one that comes to mind is Osmose. Relapse isn't much better.
Well, I've never worked with either for shows, but, I know that
Century Media has frequently (ie. just about always) had troubles
getting bands into Canada, frequently causing shows to be delays several
hours, or, as in the case of Shadows Fall on the IEMF, to not even be
allowed into the country. And it's come to be expected at the
Reverb/Kathedral complex that Century Media will forget to fax in their
guestlist... In fact, at the IEMF show, I remember chatting with the
promoter and a few of the other press people, and the line "And of
course, Century Media didn't fax a list, as usual" came up...
Daimon Ahnjeel
> expecting money.. start a band expecting to play music.. If people bypass the
> traditional band/label system stop whining about it and find your income
> another way...
The problem with your model is that most band members who have
label deals still have to have outside jobs. Maurizio from Kataklysm
also does band promotion (Brave Concerts International, where he is a
co-owner) and helps out with Hypnotic International (record label), Jens
from Borknagar works for Manpower, doing temp jobs...
These are the two that I know best, because I've talked to them
about it.
> << If a musician is not allowed to have incentives, why is he playing
> music?<<
>
> Playing music for the love of it should be incentive enough.. but.. making
> music for commercial use [tv commercials, soundtracks, video games, etc.] often
Okay, for commercials, bands are rarely, if ever, asked for
permission for the song to be used, and there are no penalties against
the companies involved in the commercial for this theft of music.
> << I disagree 100%. A large number of the fans who are into this sort of
> music do not have a computer and access. You seem to be coming from
> inside the fishbowl where you are surrounded by people who have computer
> access freely, ie: this newsgroup's participants. There are still tons
> of fans out there who would be left out if that were the only allowed
> model of distribution. >>
> And I disagree.. The person with a job can afford a decent computer in a matter
> of no time.. free internet service providers pop up everyday.. Its just a
> matter of effort. I've had friends that cant afford CDs on a regular basis go
> through this very same scenario [I paid for mine when I was making a meager pay
> check].
And don't forget the technophobes who love metal music, but won't
go near a computer. Face it, your argument doesn't stand, I know. I run
a webpage for my province's metal scene, which a large number of fans
can't view/access because they don't have the $1000 to sink into a
computer system. It's wonderful to say that computers are affordable and
all that shit, but, $1000 is a LOT to try to scrape together. And a lot
of the people that don't already have computers don't know enough about
them to be able to buy a decent older system (which are becoming
increasingly more difficult to find, and increasingly expensive to
operate as well - have you seen the price of SDRAM lately?! That alone
is the reason why I'm going to be upgrading my shitbox, so I can afford
the RAM to run applications!)
How do I know that the majority of people in the scene don't have a
computer/access to one? I flyer at shows, regularly, for my pages and
list, and people are always excited about it, until they see that it's a
computer thing, at which point they tell me "Man, this is great, it's
awesome what you're doing, but I don't have a computer"
Daimon Ahnjeel
> > Is it because you couldn't have been bothered to read any further
> > and see that I was talking about more than just your "career rockband"
> > people? If you'll look at the original message again, you'll notice that
> > I mentioned the fact that most of these people have jobs outside of
> > their bands, but you know, those are generally not the best jobs -
> > casual labour and temp work is a sad, sad way to make a living,
> > especially if the band doesn't make enough money to pay for the
>
> uh yeah. Show me where I said anything about 'covering costs', and
> I'll concede. I'm talking about career musicians, and those who
> create music purely to entertain the masses...as opposed to ART.
> the tenure of this thread will remain unchanged, despite the
> you-tug-me-while-I-tug-you games you have going with Chedsey.
Wow, a mutual masturbation comment, how enlightened. The reason I
have gone into this detail is because you simply think that a one-line
response is all that is required on a complex issue. You know, for you
to be understood as anything more than an idealistic idiot, you have to
be able to explain what you are saying, and why you are saying it.
Construct a real argument for a change.
> > equipment, jam space and studio time that they use. Your rebuttal is
> > nothing more than the brayings of a jackass who refuses to admit that
> > nobody in this society is above economics.
>
> You've never actually bought a demo tape, have you?
> "nobody in this society is above economics"? Who are you kidding?
Actually, I've got several, from local bands, whom I promote on my
show. I even buy self-financed CDs from local bands, instead of just
letting them give them to me as a promotional item.
Do you mean to say that you are above economics? That a person with
a message is above economics? Let's face it, money is a necessity - for
food, shelter, taxes, keeping the police from busting your ass into jail
for loitering...
John Chedsey
>
> "nobody in this society is above economics"? Who are you kidding?
Name some examples and show me how they live live above economics.
John Chedsey
>
> Bleh. I was told you work in a record store.
You probably shouldn't rely on second hand information and base entire
arguements on something that is simply not true.
> as for the rest, it stands.
"Wobbles" is a more appropriate term, kiddo.
> If not an active part,
> you're definitely a advocate and/or beneficiary of "the machine".
Heh...you simply name call. Still. You can't even killfile me like a
good little boy. Nor can you provide any sort of backing to your
accusations. This is simply ego posturing and posing to make yourself
look like a good little BMer boy and make me look like "the man". In
other words: grow up.
>
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 04:35:22 GMT, John Chedsey <jo...@chedsey.com> wrote:
>
> > Artistic quality is a matter of subjective opinion. What you think
> > might be plummeting quality might be rising quality to another
> > listener. That's completely subjective and therefore, not of use to
> > this discussion.
>
> nice loophole. now hang yourself.
Yup. You still name call and are fully unable to discuss an issue with
any sort of maturity.
John Chedsey
>
> Get laid.
If more people who regularly posted to this newsgroup did, they'd
probably not be posting quite so much.
John Chedsey
>
> << So what is being suggested here is that the only way an ethical band to
> remain 'pure' is to have an outside job. Why does a musician *have* to
> have a day job in order to be 'pure'? >>
>
> Didnt say anything about "purity"... What I'm saying is.. Dont start a band
> traditional band/label system stop whining about it and find your income
> another way...
I agree that people should be in a band to play *music* above all else.
> It isnt always.. But you'd be a fool to think stars dont go nova... I'm merely
> saying that one should go into music with a backup plan... That way their
> ethics arent comprimised and they wont go into famine when their albums dont
> sell...
I also believe that if you are going to have albums out, you'd darned
well better know the business side of matters if you want to survive.
Most label horror stories come from bands being very naive about the
business aspect. An artist can survive off as little as 30,000 records
being sold *assuming* they control their business well. Selling 30,000
of any album hardly constitutes playing solely for money and still
allows the artist a chance to play precisely what he/she wants to play.
> << Is he, theoretically, going to dilute his music solely to
> continue surviving from it? Do all musicians immediately lose
> credibility and purity and their music instantly become worthless
> because a dollar is made or recouped? >>
>
> Thats not what happens... Lots of bands make "a dollar", bands that become
> solely dependent on that dollar tend to comprimise their ethics to maintain
> their living standard [even if they barely make enough to live they seem to
> enjoy living off their music more than working a steady job].
Can you really blame them?
> Musicians need to learn to live with technology, use it to their
> advantage and if it destroys their hopes at living off their music then perhaps
> its time to reaccess their goals and ethics.
Technology is here to stay, which is something that a lot of labels and
artists seem to having great difficulty with. I think there are ways to
still play music, distribute albums and survive (note: in the realm of
metal, very few bands are going to really thrive and live like rock
stars playing *this* kind of music). So long as they are not outwardly
screwing the fans, I have no problems how they go about it.
> I have no problems with people
> living off their music at all, I think its great really, BUT its being
> dependent that I see as a lax of responsibility. Its universally known that
> music is one of the most difficult career choices out there, technology is
> making that increasingly more of a truth when it demands its cultural qualities
> rather than its market potential.
I agree with what you say here as well.
> << I disagree 100%. A large number of the fans who are into this sort of
> music do not have a computer and access. You seem to be coming from
> inside the fishbowl where you are surrounded by people who have computer
> access freely, ie: this newsgroup's participants. There are still tons
> of fans out there who would be left out if that were the only allowed
> model of distribution. >>
>
> And I disagree.. The person with a job can afford a decent computer in a matter
> of no time.. free internet service providers pop up everyday.. Its just a
> matter of effort. I've had friends that cant afford CDs on a regular basis go
> through this very same scenario [I paid for mine when I was making a meager pay
> check].
Just from emperical observations, there will always be a segment of
society that is w/o computer access and more importantly, interest in
having it. It's still sizable enough that an artist cannot solely exist
on the internet and reach an audience. A non-computer user music
enthusiast should not be punished if they aren't interested in being
online.
Moreover, in your idea of fans sending CDRs, you have the potential to
cause more problems if the artist tries to distribute music by himself.
Say Ackblargh, a death metal band from Ohio, makes an incredible album
that utterly slays (to use the lingo of the kids). So based on word of
mouth, 30,000 kids send CDrs to the band, who simply don't have the time
to copy that many discs because, well, they work real jobs. Thus, it
takes weeks or months to get the music back and kids start calling them
sell outs because of the delay. Therefore, the band has a need for an
outside source to handle the distribution of music, which gets you right
back where you started.
>
> << Back to my original question...is it required to have a real job in
> order to be a musician? >>
>
> Again.. if you are dependent on it to eat I'd say yes it is. Otherwise dont
> come whining to everyone that they cant afford Ramen noodles because their only
> skill is a blast beat.
Ha ha! Quote of the week.
>
> << I'm not downplaying your model entirely because I can see the rise of
> homebrew music being distributed entirely independently of existing
> record labels. What I want to know is why *this* model is ethical and
> other artist run labels are not.
> >>
>
> Again.. responsibility and thought should be put into one's career decision...
> passion counts for a lot, but one has to be willing to make some sacrifices to
> exist AND to nurse their passions.
I agree with you yet again. I think there is a lot of merit to using
technology as a method to get your music out but it's not the only way
that should be explored.
supersonicjackhammerfistfuck
> supersonicjackhammerfistfuck wrote:
> > "nobody in this society is above economics"? Who are you kidding?
> Name some examples and show me how they live live above economics.
Ahhh, SemanticJohn rides again. There's a reason I put that
entire string in quotes, dickhead. We're talking about musicians
here, remember?...and the merits of "art4sale". Stop trying to
win the debate on technicality. Its the sign of a poor loser.
supersonicjackhammerfistfuck
You simply won't admit a band can exist exclusive to economics.
Thats just a ridiculous attitute to take. No amount of skewed
debate can validate that.
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:14:49 GMT, John Chedsey <jo...@chedsey.com> wrote:
> supersonicjackhammerfistfuck wrote:
> >
> > Bleh. I was told you work in a record store.
>
> You probably shouldn't rely on second hand information and base entire
> arguements on something that is simply not true.
>
> > as for the rest, it stands.
>
> "Wobbles" is a more appropriate term, kiddo.
>
> > If not an active part,
> > you're definitely a advocate and/or beneficiary of "the machine".
>
> Heh...you simply name call. Still. You can't even killfile me like a
> good little boy. Nor can you provide any sort of backing to your
> accusations. This is simply ego posturing and posing to make yourself
> look like a good little BMer boy and make me look like "the man". In
> other words: grow up.
>
> >
> > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 04:35:22 GMT, John Chedsey <jo...@chedsey.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Artistic quality is a matter of subjective opinion. What you think
> > > might be plummeting quality might be rising quality to another
> > > listener. That's completely subjective and therefore, not of use to
> > > this discussion.
> >
> > nice loophole. now hang yourself.
>
> Yup. You still name call and are fully unable to discuss an issue with
> any sort of maturity.
/}
supersonicjackhammerfistfuck
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:15:48 GMT, John Chedsey <jo...@chedsey.com> wrote:
> Dwaallicht wrote:
> >
> > Get laid.
>
> If more people who regularly posted to this newsgroup did, they'd
> probably not be posting quite so much.
/}
Extraterrestrial Semen Storm
label deals still have to have outside jobs. Maurizio from Kataklysm
also does band promotion (Brave Concerts International, where he is a
co-owner) and helps out with Hypnotic International (record label), Jens
from Borknagar works for Manpower, doing temp jobs...
These are the two that I know best, because I've talked to them >>
There are always a number of scenarios that happen or can happen... Almost
everyone I've met that records music also has a job... Most of the time NOTHING
changes from their days as a demo band to a CD band... distribution becomes
more widespread [but a great deal of distribution STILL comes from tape
trading/CDR trading... and now MP3 trading] but the people involved still cant
rely on release profits [so why not utilize the growing technological
advantages and by pass the label? yes yes I know.. "not everyone has a
computer!".. that excuse is getting old].
<< Okay, for commercials, bands are rarely, if ever, asked for
permission for the song to be used, and there are no penalties against
the companies involved in the commercial for this theft of music. >>
Believe me.. most of those bands/musicians get a nice royalty check for the
rights on commercially utilized music.
<< And don't forget the technophobes who love metal music, but won't
go near a computer.<<
That is their problem... They find music when its not in stores or other easily
accessible ports dont they? The source of the music outside of the internet
will likely not disappear anytime in the near future even with MP3 trading
becoming more and more prominent so they need not put forth much effort quite
yet.
>> Face it, your argument doesn't stand, I know. I run
a webpage for my province's metal scene, which a large number of fans
can't view/access because they don't have the $1000 to sink into a
computer system. It's wonderful to say that computers are affordable and
all that shit, but, $1000 is a LOT to try to scrape together.<<
My family has bought 2 computers for less than $300 that work just fine. They
purchased them from computer stores that sell both new and used for relatively
cheap prices. Affordable computers dont start at $1000... If you are buying a
new computer you can pay in installments as well.. I have a Mac G4 and I had
the option to pay in $40+ installments over 30+ months.. Granted its one of the
more expensive computers out there [2,500 - 3,000] but there are lots of more
inexpensive models out there of course. It doesnt take much to scrape that
together, a little effort and a job... I cant feel sorry for people that dont
put forth the effort since I did when I was making very little money.
>>And a lot
of the people that don't already have computers don't know enough about
them to be able to buy a decent older system (which are becoming
increasingly more difficult to find, and increasingly expensive to
operate as well - have you seen the price of SDRAM lately?!<<
No excuse.. If you can read or have someone read to you its not very difficult
to find something that will meet your needs. You make this sound much more
difficult than it really is.. Its easier now than ever, and I did it when
really primitive computers [like my old PC, which can connect to napster and
download MP3s with ease] cost close to $2000. Responsiblity and effort is the
key.. not excuses.
>> That alone
is the reason why I'm going to be upgrading my shitbox, so I can afford
the RAM to run applications!)
How do I know that the majority of people in the scene don't have a
computer/access to one? I flyer at shows, regularly, for my pages and
list, and people are always excited about it, until they see that it's a
computer thing, at which point they tell me "Man, this is great, it's
awesome what you're doing, but I don't have a computer"
>>
Well.. its not a secret that a great percentage of the metal scene consists of
lazy trash that WONT put forth any effort or have no interest in advancing
their abilities... When we see this takeover, which is being suggested now,
finally come to full fruition you may see some effort come from these people.
You'd probably find that most of these people get a dub or CDR any chance they
can, these things are likewise not very hard to come across... I cant even
count the number of times people have made me CDRs when they didnt even have a
CD burner, not to mention I've been tape trading since around '90. I still buy
CDs of the releases I really enjoy but Im not going to turn down a CDR or MP3s
to get a preview or a temporary version. I think a lot of people are like that
as well.
1 l\l \/ o l< r
>Black/death metal *is*
> entertainment, a business and still can operate as art.
You have this backwards, don't you?
--
<<enterchthonicsound/mysticalchaos>>
Extraterrestrial Semen Storm
well better know the business side of matters if you want to survive.
Most label horror stories come from bands being very naive about the
business aspect. An artist can survive off as little as 30,000 records
being sold *assuming* they control their business well. Selling 30,000
of any album hardly constitutes playing solely for money and still
allows the artist a chance to play precisely what he/she wants to play.
>>
I agree.. Im sure you can understand my stance that people shouldnt be
dependent on sales. If you're going into music as a career you'd better get
into the commercial function of the music. I'm going to school for
communication design, I grew up wanted to do illustration and fine art but
there is nothing to live on from that.. If I just painted and expected everyone
that saw my paintings to give me money I'd be eating rats and insects to
survive.
<< Can you really blame them? >>
I cant blame anyone for wanting to do something they feel passionately about
for a living... Look, not everyone can be a porn star because they like to have
ankle sex, same with music... Dont depend on it.
<< Technology is here to stay, which is something that a lot of labels and
artists seem to having great difficulty with. I think there are ways to
still play music, distribute albums and survive (note: in the realm of
metal, very few bands are going to really thrive and live like rock
stars playing *this* kind of music). So long as they are not outwardly
screwing the fans, I have no problems how they go about it. >>
Definitely.. I mean this is going to harm the mainstream labels and bands the
least even if it does mean 200,000 album sales are lost... As if that hurts a
band like Metallica a lot anyway. I think the underground and "Metal" can only
prosper further with such innovation... it will take effort but the technology
is going to be inevitable.
<< Just from emperical observations, there will always be a segment of
society that is w/o computer access and more importantly, interest in
having it. It's still sizable enough that an artist cannot solely exist
on the internet and reach an audience. A non-computer user music
enthusiast should not be punished if they aren't interested in being
online.<<
I dont think the "present" impact on the artist or the non-computer user will
be too harsh. By the time such a massive impact evolves it will have proven
that a greater percentage of the populace interested in music will have
discovered this new distributive platform... Its time for the people involved
to plan for the future... Copyright laws will only cover so much ground before
you damn yourself in a sea of suits and lawyer fees that assimilate your entire
earnings from potential sales. Needless to say the future of the music
industry should be amusing.
>>Moreover, in your idea of fans sending CDRs, you have the potential to
cause more problems if the artist tries to distribute music by himself.
Say Ackblargh, a death metal band from Ohio, makes an incredible album
that utterly slays (to use the lingo of the kids). So based on word of
mouth, 30,000 kids send CDrs to the band, who simply don't have the time
to copy that many discs because, well, they work real jobs. Thus, it
takes weeks or months to get the music back and kids start calling them
sell outs because of the delay. Therefore, the band has a need for an
outside source to handle the distribution of music, which gets you right
back where you started.>>
I understand this totally... I think its a decent way to start out... I've seen
tons of bands distribute their material in such ways... As popularity grows so
does a sense of how the future of your distribution should be managed... This
would be a good time to develop an idea of how much it would cost to purchase
manufactured CDs and sell them through distros that will most certainly never
fade away.. as a matter of fact there are far too many as it is selling for way
too much in the first place. In the end I think its better to bypass labels
and such unless, as you said, you have a good understanding of the business and
are responsible for what happens. I dont like the idea of dependence on such
though.
>>I agree with you yet again. I think there is a lot of merit to using
technology as a method to get your music out but it's not the only way
that should be explored. >>
Yes.. I dont think it will ever evolve into a pure source... We are going to
see those who dont think its worth the effort quit the music business, be it
labels or artists... Which may or may not clean up some of the arterial
blockage that exists now, thats only a positive in my book.
1 l\l \/ o l< r
John Chedsey <jo...@chedsey.com> wrote
> Metal fans are the most contemptable creatures imaginable.
LOL!
nomeansno = untermensch defeatism
--
<<enterchthonicsound/mysticalchaos>>
Sybren
>> "nobody in this society is above economics"? Who are you kidding?
>
>Name some examples and show me how they live live above economics.
Those who have jobs besides the band?
Sybren
--
"Pulchrum Est Paucorum Hominum" - Horatius