Bad Editing on ROD...
Mike Boxer
Oh, and by the way. Let me send out my plea NOW.
Please do not reply, "Duh, looks like somebody has a lot of time on
their hands", or "Duh, you have no life". If you do I will throw up.
Thank you.
Mike
Mike Boxer
Have you noticed that the River of Dreams, at least the CD, is edited
quite poorly? I've cut some records, and although I'm no expert, I have
a little insight into this field. Three particular instances jumped out
at me. There might be a whole lot more but I haven't listened closely to
find them. These were just very apparent.
1. ALL ABOUT SOUL. Right after the big break after "...keep my faith
alive", we hear only Billy's voice singing "...It's All About Soul...".
Listen closely! Amongst "All About", Billy's voice gets really really
raspy, as if he had laryngitis. Not to say he did, but regardless I'm
surprised they let that take go. They could have at least used a cut of
another take.
2. FAMOUS LAST WORDS. Going from the chorus to a verse: "...but that's
the story of my life. Comfort in my coffee cup..." Now in the studio,
Billy probably stopped somwhere along the line (no pun intended), and
then took it from "Comfort...". I can tell this because right at the
point where "comfort" comes in, he's overlapping himself singing
"life...". It sounds like there are two Billys! This one would never be
let go, because it prevents it from sounding like Billy and a band sat
down and just played the song through, without studio-induced glitter.
That's the purpose of pro recording, to make it sound like people played
the song normally and use the technology to make it sound like they did
it absolutely perfectly.
3. GREAT WALL OF CHINA. Now this one might be intentional. If it is,
could somebody try to figure it out? Toward the end of the song, there
is a bunch of repetitions of the same progression, with no lyrics, that
waste of lot of time and add no "plot", for lack of a better term, to
the song. This is what it sounds like, but if you fix your equalizer
just right and listen REALLY closely, you can hear somebody, maybe Billy
maybe not, mumbling a whole long speech under the music. All I can make
out is "This is SOOOOOOO swwwwwEET.", and that's only a small snippet of
the whole thing. Perhaps it was a technician who got his mike that talks
to Billy onto a track by mistake, perhaps Billy was really getting into
the music and they forgot to turn his mike off. Or perhaps it is Billy
saying a hidden message! That lapse, despite it being good music, is
kind of repetitive, even monotonous, and I find it hard to believe that
it does not exist to serve a purpose, namely to leave space for this
"hidden message". This is why I think it might be intentional. It COULD
be a mistake or oversight, though. I'm dying to find out what is being
said. Wish somebody had asked this at one of those Q&A's!
Hate to harp on the negative but maybe this insight about careless
editing could lead to another revelation, namely that there was an
intentional lack of effort in the process?
Detective Mike
James Kass
Oy vei... haven't you heard of style? None of these are mistakes... they
were intentional stylistic choices. Is Billy not allowed to change his
tonal quality for a line of a song, as he does in "All About Soul"? He
does the same thing in "Pressure". Where is it written that music *must*
sound as if it's played live? What is wrong with over-dubbing vocals,
like they do in "Famous Last Words"? He does the same thing in "Sleeping
with the Televsion On". As for the "extra instrumental part" at the end
of "Great Wall of China", the music is no more meaningless than the
extra bars at the end of "My Life". Billy wrote the song to thumb his
nose at his ex-manager... the whole song is an "up-yours"... I don't see
anything wrong with him putting messages at the end (one of many obvious
Beatles influences).
And yes, you do have too much time on your hands, but then again, so
must I to even bother responding...
********************************************************
James Kass
********************************************************
"Here I am, feeling like a f*cking fool"--Billy Joel
"That's my opinion... I could be wrong"--Dennis Miller
********************************************************
MemSale
Mike: Good observations! Did you ever notice the bad punch in
"Downeaster Alexa" right at the point where Billy sings "So if you see my
Downeaster Alexa..."
He must have punched on the word "see." If you listen carefully, you'll
hear a double hit on that word - so what you get is "see-ee my Downeaster
Alexa..." Go check it out!
Memsale: Beatles Memorabilia For Sale at http://members.aol.com/Memsale/Beatles.html
Mike Boxer
You were partially right on the "waiting too long for an album" thing, but we've
got you pegged on this one, Jimmy.
James Kass wrote:
>
> Oy vei... haven't you heard of style? None of these are mistakes... they
> were intentional stylistic choices.
And a fart by Billy Joel is a work of art, an interpretation of the essence of a
tainted breeze.
What I mean is, you're giving the guy too much credit. A mistake is a mistake -
read on.
> Is Billy not allowed to change his
> tonal quality for a line of a song, as he does in "All About Soul"?
> He does the same thing in "Pressure".
This leads me to believe you didn't take two seconds to LISTEN to what I'm
talking about. Sure, he does what you're talking about in "Pressure", a lot
in "You Can Make Me Free", in the chorus of "Only Human", and even on the
same album ("2000 Years"), just off the top of my head. But I know what I'm
talking about here. The guy sounds, just for a split-second, like he's got
laryngitis, literally. This could have been *EASILY* fixed if caught.
> Where is it written that music *must*
> sound as if it's played live?
Think of this. You are a record producer. You have two different recordings of the
exact same music by the same people. On one, they sound like crap. On the other,
they sound great. Which one do you go with?
Unless the players are absolutely perfect (as we know nobody is), the technology
makes them as close to it as possible. It combines the right amounts of each level
and leaves the out to "pick up where they left off" if there's a screw up on a
take that was otherwise going great. That's what it's THERE for. That's why it
takes about five hours to make a single song. They take the time to get it perfect
without holes and glitter it up. I know from experience.
What is wrong with over-dubbing vocals,
> like they do in "Famous Last Words"? He does the same thing in "Sleeping
> with the Televsion On".
Oh come on. You're completely glossing over the point. In "Sleeping..." it is so
OBVIOUSLY intentional. Try to sing "Sleeping With The Television On, Sleeping With
The Television On" like it's done in the song:
| 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & |
|Sleep-ing with the te-le-vi-sion | On_______________ te-le-vi-sion|
| |Sleep-ing with the |...
It can't be done. If Billy hadn't PLANNED to over-dub, he wouldn't have written it
that way. It is made to sound obvious, and that's okay. THAT's artistic, not a
studio goof. Now in the following case ("Famous Last Words"):
|1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & |
| and that's___ the sto____ ry___ of___ my___ life_________ com-fort in my|
| | | |...
One person would have no problem singing that alone. Obviously Billy messed up
somewhere, and they rewound the tape, and he started again from "comfort". You can
tell because it overlaps "life" where it should not have to. The technology is
there to help that happen, but the listener is not meant to be let on.
> As for the "extra instrumental part" at the end
> of "Great Wall of China", the music is no more meaningless than the
> extra bars at the end of "My Life".
Hmmmmm, let's see...
Comparison (and I gave you the benefit of the doubt):
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| | | Time of | Song |"Wasted"|
| Song | Amount of "Extra Bars" |"Extra Bars"|Length| Time |
|-------------------|-------------------------|------------|------|--------|
|My Life |18 meas. @ >120 beats/sec| 0:26 | 4:30 | 9.6 % |
|Great Wall Of China|33 meas. @ <110 beats/sec| 1:19 | 5:44 | 23.0 % |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
33 measures is a lot more than 18, especially when it's going slower. And 23
percent is a considerably larger chunk of time used up in a song than 9 percent,
especially considering the 9 percent is the result of an elongation by a fade-out.
"...China" (the 23-percenter) does not fade out, making it end sooner.
My point is, My Life and many, many, many other songs (Big Shot, River of Dreams,
Summer Highland Falls, Captain Jack, We Didn't Start The Fire, 52nd Street, Uptown
Girl, just off the top of my head) use the initial progression a few times and the
end of the song without lyrics or with an ad-lib section to fade out. It's
standard. On "...China" this goes way beyond that purpose. This standard part is
dragged on way too long. It is CLEARLY excess. And when you listen for that
"hidden message", it becomes OBVIOUS, that he put this segment in to leave time
for the message. I, as well as a lot of the rest of us here, know about the song's
purpose as (as you put it) an "up-yours" to his manager. So maybe under the music
he's saying something to that effect.
> Billy wrote the song to thumb his
> nose at his ex-manager... the whole song is an "up-yours"... I don't see
> anything wrong with him putting messages at the end
I never said there was. All I wanted to know was what the message was!
> (one of many obvious
> Beatles influences).
That's a whole 'nother post.
> And yes, you do have too much time on your hands, but then again, so
> must I to even bother responding...
Oh no, feeling sick, uh... (bleeeeaaaaaggggghhhhh) (throw up)
> ********************************************************
> James Kass
> ********************************************************
> "Here I am, feeling like a f*cking fool"--Billy Joel
^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^
Hmmm....
James Kass
How can I argue with a man who's got so much time on his hands he
actually counts "percentage wasted time"... even makes a chart... after
reading that post I'm ready to grant you 100%...
I'm not going to convince you, it was foolish of me to have tried. You
certainly have the right to think these are mistakes, I certainly have
the right to think you're nuts.
I never said his farts were "art", but you must admit, he could probably
fart in perfect pitch! Didn't you know he came up with the violin part
to "Scandinavian Skies" after eating Christie's Baked Beans?
But seriously, have fun nitpicking (and counting) each measure of his
recordings, deciding which measures are "wasted" and which you deem
worthy of your time... Some of us have more important things to do...
********************************************************
James Kass
********************************************************
"Here I am, feeling like a f*cking fool"--Billy Joel
Mike Boxer
James Kass wrote:
>
> How can I argue with a man who's got so much time on his hands he
> actually counts "percentage wasted time"... even makes a chart... after
> reading that post I'm ready to grant you 100%...
Don't hate me just because I am musically inclined, can type fast, know
what I'm talking about and/or want to prove a point. That post took me
all of ten minutes. If you can't keep up, then too bad. If you don't have
that kind of time, then maybe you should slow down. ("Do you want it fast,
or do you want it good"...) The less stress would make you less of a jerk.
> I'm not going to convince you, it was foolish of me to have tried. You
> certainly have the right to think these are mistakes,
Oh, so now you're right no matter what, I'm just under the wrong impression.
Listen, I am the first to admit when I'm wrong. You've seen me refute my own
statements on this NG before. But the point I'm proving is just so OBVIOUS!
I INVITE EVERYBODY TO LOOK AT MY ORIGINAL MESSAGE POINTING OUT THE GLITCHES,
AND POST AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY AGREE.
If others are not as anal as you've been about "wasting time", I will soon be
able to show you just how easy it is to see the mistakes and accordingly just
how many people have.
> I certainly have
> the right to think you're nuts.
I have the right to think you're a jerk, but I don't. I just think you're
being one right now.
> I never said his farts were "art",
That was just a joke! As is the following, which actually is pretty funny.
> but you must admit, he could probably
> fart in perfect pitch! Didn't you know he came up with the violin part
> to "Scandinavian Skies" after eating Christie's Baked Beans?
When he can fart the piano solo to the fast part of "Scenes From An
Italian Restaruant", then I'll take notice.
> But seriously, have fun nitpicking (and counting) each measure of his
> recordings,
It's not that hard, buddy...
> deciding which measures are "wasted" and which you deem
> worthy of your time...
Taken way out of context...
> Some of us have more important things to do...
Obviously not...
> ********************************************************
> James Kass
> ********************************************************
> "Here I am, feeling like a f*cking fool"--Billy Joel
Sure as hell ACTING like one...
"Advice is cheap, you can take it from me; It's yours to keep, cause opinions
are free:" You should really change that tagline... It's just TOO easy to poke
fun at.
William C. Douglas, Jr.
Mike Boxer wrote:
>
> Obviously Billy messed up
> somewhere, and they rewound the tape, and he started again from "comfort". You can
> tell because it overlaps "life" where it should not have to. The technology is
> there to help that happen, but the listener is not meant to be let on.
I listened to this line again after you mentioned this "mistake"
and there's no doubt in my mind that this was intentional. The long
"life" blends into the beginning of "Comfort". If he had sung the whole
line straight through, it would have sounded too staccato. Plus the
note fits perfectly with the next chord. If it had been in dissonance,
I would be willing to think otherwise. I think it was a perfect edit.
I don't say this because I think everything the man touches turns
to gold. I agree that in "All About Soul" his voice roughens for the
slightest split second, but if the take as a whole was great, who the
hell cares?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | | | Time of | Song |"Wasted"|
> | Song | Amount of "Extra Bars" |"Extra Bars"|Length| Time |
> |-------------------|-------------------------|------------|------|--------|
> |My Life |18 meas. @ >120 beats/sec| 0:26 | 4:30 | 9.6 % |
> |Great Wall Of China|33 meas. @ <110 beats/sec| 1:19 | 5:44 | 23.0 % |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It is CLEARLY excess.
Have you ever heard the song "Hey, Jude"? Do the figures on that.
The fade takes about half of the entire song length. "Excess", my ass.
Bill Douglas
Woody
On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Mike Boxer wrote:
> Oh come on. You're completely glossing over the point. In "Sleeping..." it is so
> OBVIOUSLY intentional. Try to sing "Sleeping With The Television On, Sleeping With
> The Television On" like it's done in the song:
>
> | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & |
> |Sleep-ing with the te-le-vi-sion | On_______________ te-le-vi-sion|
> | |Sleep-ing with the |...
>
> It can't be done. If Billy hadn't PLANNED to over-dub, he wouldn't have written it
> that way. It is made to sound obvious, and that's okay. THAT's artistic, not a
> studio goof. Now in the following case ("Famous Last Words"):
>
> |1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & |
> | and that's___ the sto____ ry___ of___ my___ life_________ com-fort in my|
> | | | |...
>
> One person would have no problem singing that alone. Obviously Billy messed up
> somewhere, and they rewound the tape, and he started again from "comfort". You can
> tell because it overlaps "life" where it should not have to. The technology is
> there to help that happen, but the listener is not meant to be let on.
I'm not going to analyze all of your charts, but I have to take total
exception to this. Have you ever cut an album? I have not, but I'm
pretty sure the above analysis is total BS. If there was meant to be no
overlapping, then there is only 1(ONE) vocal track being recorded on the
master. When the dubbing is done, that channel stays unique. Therefore,
if there is any vocal overlapping (mixing vocals from 2 different takes
and having them overlap) then it absolutely MUST be done intentionally!
There can be no way to accidentally overlap the vocal tracks.
Do you see what I'm saying? On a multi-track recorder, with no need for
overlapping vocals, Billy's voice would only be on track A. The
instruments would be on B-P or whatever. It's all digital, so they would
cut to the same PRECISE timing for a tape splice. If the vocals from the
first take trailed off into the splice, then they would stop abruptly when
the splice occured. No overlap.
I think in the 1990's there is no way this 'accidentally' occurred with
the type of equipment being used.
Is there anybody out there that has used really expensive equipment to cut
an album that can dispute this?
Woody!
Woody
On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, James Kass wrote:
> How can I argue with a man who's got so much time on his hands he
> actually counts "percentage wasted time"... even makes a chart... after
> reading that post I'm ready to grant you 100%...
>
> I'm not going to convince you, it was foolish of me to have tried. You
> certainly have the right to think these are mistakes, I certainly have
> the right to think you're nuts.
If you are going to 'grant' him '100%' then why call the guy nuts? Do you
agree with him? Or do you just have no real argument left in you?
> But seriously, have fun nitpicking (and counting) each measure of his
> recordings, deciding which measures are "wasted" and which you deem
> worthy of your time... Some of us have more important things to do...
So James Kass is now deciding when a person ceases to be a 'fan' and when
that person is wasting their time. Wow, that's pretty scary. Any more
talk like this from Jimmy, and I'll be making a little stop at Deja News
to compile "James Kass' Greatest Hits and Misses"...
> ********************************************************
> James Kass
> ********************************************************
> "Here I am, feeling like a f*cking fool"--Billy Joel
> "That's my opinion... I could be wrong"--Dennis Miller
> ********************************************************
Woody!
James Kass
Woody wrote:
>
> On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, James Kass wrote:
> If you are going to 'grant' him '100%' then why call the guy nuts? Do you
> agree with him? Or do you just have no real argument left in you?
Apparently you didn't get the joke... I was going to grant his post as
being 100% wasted time. As for not having an argument, I've already made
my argument. I'm not going to convince him he's wrong, so I'm not going
to waste my time trying.
> So James Kass is now deciding when a person ceases to be a 'fan' and when
> that person is wasting their time. Wow, that's pretty scary. Any more
> talk like this from Jimmy, and I'll be making a little stop at Deja News
> to compile "James Kass' Greatest Hits and Misses"...
What the fuck are you talking about? I have no doubt that Mike is a true
fan. I never questioned this fact. I'm just saying he's over-analyzing
things, and he's a little misguided about what are mistakes and what are
stylistic choices. Mike is the one deciding what is wasted time, not
I... or didn't you read his neat little charts? It's my OPINION, and I
have a right to express it. Then again, I wouldn't expect a Canuck to
know about the First Amendment to the United States.
********************************************************
James Kass
********************************************************
"Here I am, feeling like a f*cking fool"--Billy Joel
Mike Boxer
Woody wrote:
>
> I'm not going to analyze all of your charts, but I have to take total
> exception to this. Have you ever cut an album? I have not, but I'm
> pretty sure the above analysis is total BS.
No, it's not. Why would I present all that evidence? I've got nothing to
gain. Everything there is the truth and concretely supports my hypothesis.
Read on.
> If there was meant to be no
> overlapping, then there is only 1(ONE) vocal track being recorded on the
> master. When the dubbing is done, that channel stays unique. Therefore,
> if there is any vocal overlapping (mixing vocals from 2 different takes
> and having them overlap) then it absolutely MUST be done intentionally!
> There can be no way to accidentally overlap the vocal tracks.
>
> Do you see what I'm saying? On a multi-track recorder, with no need for
> overlapping vocals, Billy's voice would only be on track A. The
> instruments would be on B-P or whatever. It's all digital, so they would
> cut to the same PRECISE timing for a tape splice. If the vocals from the
> first take trailed off into the splice, then they would stop abruptly when
> the splice occured. No overlap.
>
> I think in the 1990's there is no way this 'accidentally' occurred with
> the type of equipment being used.
>
> Is there anybody out there that has used really expensive equipment to cut
> an album that can dispute this?
>
> Woody!
Well, first off, Woody, let me thank you for your defense earlier. That guy
really pisses me off. I'm glad there are still people like you here who
respond seriously with what they know, instead of substituting crap for what
they don't. I take it you're in the industry - few who aren't wouldn't be
able to constitute what you thought of.
Anyway, I have in fact, recorded an album in a professional studio, complete
with all that glitzy equipment you described. It was all digital. Our lead
singer was dead by the last song. He was singing really great on like, take
23, and all of a sudden he stopped. What they did was this. The producer
rewound the song to just before he stopped, and told him that the track
would be recording, so he should make no noise before he took it from where
he left off. So the track was playing and recording at the same time. And we
have the identical situation as "Last Words". The line is, "I was at the
auction, I was bought and sold", and it sounds like there's two twins, one
sings "I was at the auction" and another cuts him off just a bit with "I was
bought and sold".
Another thing, I was playing piano for another one of the songs. I play one
chord on each beat. After coming out of the bridge, I lost my train of
thought, and stopped for one beat. To correct it, we did the same thing. The
producer played the recording from just before, and when that beat came up,
I played that one chord and that was it, we fixed it.
So you see, that's what is done. Because it's all digital, everything is in
sync and you can rewind the tape to wherever you want, record on whichever
tracks you want WHILE they are playing, for a reference point. So it's quite
possible to "step on a line", as they call it in the theater biz.
You had an intelligent and legitimate train of thought for this but I hope
I've enlightened you otherwise.
I just can't understand why it's so hard for SOME people to get things
through their thick skulls. I love how Kass takes the stance that "there's
no convincing me, because I 'think' I am right, so he won't try." What I
think is that he CAN'T convince ANYBODY, let alone me, because he is WRONG,
and has no evidence because there IS none. So he makes it look like he is
absolutely right, I'm just delusional. And he decides to take shots at me on
the side. Nice guy.
Mike
James Kass
Mike Boxer wrote:
> I just can't understand why it's so hard for SOME people to get things
> through their thick skulls. I love how Kass takes the stance that "there's
> no convincing me, because I 'think' I am right, so he won't try." What I
> think is that he CAN'T convince ANYBODY, let alone me, because he is WRONG,
> and has no evidence because there IS none. So he makes it look like he is
> absolutely right, I'm just delusional. And he decides to take shots at me on
> the side. Nice guy.
Well, I am a nice guy, as most people will tell you. Anyone can follow
this thread back and see who is really the antagonist here and who takes
more shots on the side.
Mike, you've got to get a thicker skin, pal. If you can't handle my
sarcasm or my viewpoint, then perhaps usenet is not for you. Don't let
my opinion make such an impact on you. I said there is no convincing you
that you're wrong. But why do you take such offense to it? It's only my
opinion. If it makes you feel better, you'll never convince me that I'm
wrong. You're fond of quoting the "fool" line in my sig, but read the
second line, too. "That's my opinion, I Could be Wrong". It applies to
all my posts, which is why it's in the sig.
You've had three people contradicting your "observations": myself,
Woody, and Bill Douglas. I am not alone in my opinion. You stated a
theory, I argued against it, citing examples. You replied with a term
paper. At this point, I realized my arguments were not going to
penetrate your way of thinking, your rebuttal was not going to influence
my way of thinking, and we were at an impasse. Further discussion was
futile. You think there are mistakes, I think they're stylistic choices.
There IS no right and wrong. Don't insist you're right. We will never
know what actually happened inside that studio. Let's just agree to
disagree and put an end to this utter bullshit.
And Woody, I appologize for the "canuck" line. It was wrong. :)
********************************************************
James Kass
********************************************************
"Here I am, feeling like a f*cking fool"--Billy Joel
Frank Ramirez
In article <334417...@earthlink.net>, mike...@earthlink.net wrote:
>James Kass wrote:
>>
>> How can I argue with a man who's got so much time on his hands he
>> actually counts "percentage wasted time"... even makes a chart... after
>> reading that post I'm ready to grant you 100%...
>
>what I'm talking about and/or want to prove a point. That post took me
>all of ten minutes. If you can't keep up, then too bad. If you don't have
>that kind of time, then maybe you should slow down. ("Do you want it fast,
>or do you want it good"...) The less stress would make you less of a jerk.
>
>> certainly have the right to think these are mistakes,
>
>
>Listen, I am the first to admit when I'm wrong. You've seen me refute my own
>statements on this NG before. But the point I'm proving is just so OBVIOUS!
>
>I INVITE EVERYBODY TO LOOK AT MY ORIGINAL MESSAGE POINTING OUT THE GLITCHES,
>AND POST AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY AGREE.
>
>If others are not as anal as you've been about "wasting time", I will soon be
>able to show you just how easy it is to see the mistakes and accordingly just
>how many people have.
>
>> the right to think you're nuts.
>
>being one right now.
>
>> I never said his farts were "art",
>
>That was just a joke! As is the following, which actually is pretty funny.
>
>> but you must admit, he could probably
>> fart in perfect pitch! Didn't you know he came up with the violin part
>> to "Scandinavian Skies" after eating Christie's Baked Beans?
>
>When he can fart the piano solo to the fast part of "Scenes From An
>Italian Restaruant", then I'll take notice.
>
>> recordings,
>
>
>> worthy of your time...
>
>
>
>
>> ********************************************************
>> James Kass
>> ********************************************************
>> "Here I am, feeling like a f*cking fool"--Billy Joel
>
JRColvin
>Have you noticed that the River of Dreams, at least the CD, is edited
>quite poorly?
As slickly over-produced as is The River of Dreams (as well as the Storm
Front and The Bridge albums), I don't see how you can consider anything
ending up on there as a "mistake". Oh how I long for the old days when it
at least seemed like he and his band strolled into the studio, cut a few
songs, and that's what we heard on our stereos. You know, Billy has said
quite often that he refused to do an Unplugged session because he's "been
unplugged for years". Oh yeah? Your output for the past fifteen years
tells a different story, Mr.Piano Man.
MemSale
Cool it, dudes! Does EVERY conversation have to deteriorate to
name-calling and antagonizing? Opinions are opinions and, in America,
they're allowed. You can disagree with someone, but that doesn't make you
right or better than they are - no matter how strongly you disagree.
Your boy Billy says it real well in "Shades Of Grey." Among other things,
he says "I hear what the other man says. I'm not that sure anymore."
Melanie Shulman
I'm not going to take part in the argument - just wanted to respond to
the original post - about the bad editing. I don't think it was bad
editing - I have to agree with those who thought it was artistic choice.
The very fact that all of those things would be so easy to change is what
makes me think they have to be on purpose. I don't think there's any big
message at the end of Great Wall - just noise. It's an interesting song
ending. A little long maybe, but I've never been a fan of all the
arguments of supposed hidden messages in songs. And that overlap part in
Last Words must be on purpose. I like it - it sounds cool. If it wasn't
supposed to be like that they'd have fixed it. I mean I'm sure anyone
would notice it's like that on first listen - I did. I don't think an
artist of Billy's calibre would put out an album with such noticeable
mistakes - they would've caught them. They don't really sound like
mistakes either.
The end.
Mellykins
Carl Lutes
I don't know, in my opinion those examples you gave are not mistakes, but
intentional. I had noticed them all before (and spent quite a lot of time
trying to figure out the message in 'GWOC'), and I had never taken them to
be mistakes.
-Jeremy L
Simon Murphy
Ok, heres my 2cents worth. Your both right, but as Mike says well never
know what happened in that studio. Being an audio engineer myself I think I
have a good idea of what did happen though.
Mike Boxer <mike...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<3346C8...@earthlink.net>...
> Anyway, I have in fact, recorded an album in a professional studio,
complete
> with all that glitzy equipment you described. It was all digital. Our
lead
> singer was dead by the last song. He was singing really great on like,
take
> 23, and all of a sudden he stopped. What they did was this. The producer
> rewound the song to just before he stopped, and told him that the track
> would be recording, so he should make no noise before he took it from
where
> he left off. So the track was playing and recording at the same time. And
we
> have the identical situation as "Last Words". The line is, "I was at the
> auction, I was bought and sold", and it sounds like there's two twins,
one
> sings "I was at the auction" and another cuts him off just a bit with "I
was
> bought and sold".
This is true for some digital equipment, but not all. You can also not
assume that all music recorded today is in the digital domain. Alot of
people still use analog tape out of personal choice. I personally feel
analog tape gives a warmer sound. Each to there own. Do you know if RoD was
recorded on digital equipment? It doesn't say anywhere on the cd. In
regards to the "Last Words" situation you describe above it is most likely
that 2 separate vocal tracks were recorded (be it digital or analog) and
mixed together in the final version. This is not an uncommon approach as
far as recording vocals goes. When you do an overdub (on a track previously
recorded) with analog and almost all digital equipment, what was previously
there is erased and the new version replaces it. This is what leads me to
the 2 vocal take conclusion.
> Another thing, I was playing piano for another one of the songs. I play
one
> chord on each beat. After coming out of the bridge, I lost my train of
> thought, and stopped for one beat. To correct it, we did the same thing.
The
> producer played the recording from just before, and when that beat came
up,
> I played that one chord and that was it, we fixed it.
It is most likely that what the engineer did was playback the tape and
dropped the machine into record just before you played the chord and the
dropped out of record again. ie a Drop-In
> So you see, that's what is done. Because it's all digital, everything is
in
> sync and you can rewind the tape to wherever you want, record on
whichever
> tracks you want WHILE they are playing, for a reference point. So it's
quite
> possible to "step on a line", as they call it in the theater biz.
I strongly disagree with this statement, but I won't get into digital
theory in this group. And as I've said above, do you have proof RoD's was
recorded on digital equipment. Anyway talking about Billy is much more
interesting than digital theory.
> You had an intelligent and legitimate train of thought for this but I
hope
> I've enlightened you otherwise.
It was a very legitimate train of thought. I hope I have enlightened you
some too and not confused to many people. Its hard to explain these things,
but much easier to demonstrate practically.
Simon
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Simon Murphy smu...@comcen.com.au
Melbourne, Australia smu...@axs.com.au
Homepage : http://www.comcen.com.au/~smurphy/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>>>>>>>>>>> Billy Joel Info Pages <<<<<<<<<<<<
http://www.comcen.com.au/~smurphy/billy.html
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Steven B. Diamant
In article <01bc4358$59ecb780$4aee17cb@murphy>, "Simon Murphy"
<smu...@comcen.com.au> wrote:
You sure it doesn't say on the CD whether it was analog or digital? Most
CD's have something that says either DDD, ADD, or AAD, referring to
recording, mastering, and transcription, respectively.
-JSD
wesley lawrence
William C. Douglas, Jr. wrote:
>
> Mike Boxer wrote:
> >
> > Obviously Billy messed up
> > somewhere, and they rewound the tape, and he started again from "comfort". You can
> > tell because it overlaps "life" where it should not have to. The technology is
> > there to help that happen, but the listener is not meant to be let on.
>
> and there's no doubt in my mind that this was intentional. The long
> "life" blends into the beginning of "Comfort". If he had sung the whole
> line straight through, it would have sounded too staccato. Plus the
> note fits perfectly with the next chord. If it had been in dissonance,
> I would be willing to think otherwise. I think it was a perfect edit.
> I don't say this because I think everything the man touches turns
> to gold. I agree that in "All About Soul" his voice roughens for the
> slightest split second, but if the take as a whole was great, who the
> hell cares?
>
>
> > | | | Time of | Song |"Wasted"|
> > | Song | Amount of "Extra Bars" |"Extra Bars"|Length| Time |
> > |-------------------|-------------------------|------------|------|--------|
> > |My Life |18 meas. @ >120 beats/sec| 0:26 | 4:30 | 9.6 % |
> > |Great Wall Of China|33 meas. @ <110 beats/sec| 1:19 | 5:44 | 23.0 % |
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> Have you ever heard the song "Hey, Jude"? Do the figures on that.
> The fade takes about half of the entire song length. "Excess", my ass.
>
> Bill Douglas
huh what ARE you talking about...billy doesnt need maethematical
analysis