Questions concerning Glenn Miller's mysterious death
T. Dijkema
Hi there,
My father, he is 71, is a big fan of Glenn Miller since WWII. We live
in The Netherlands, where the American big-bands were immense popular
among the soldiers. Yesterday, I searched the newsgroups with the
keyword 'Glenn Miller', and so I found this one. My dad has a lot of
questions about his mysterious death. Maybe some of you know the answer
to one of them. My father would appreciate it very much:
1. Why did Glenn travel alone to France, as the rest of the orchestra
left for France, a day later?
2. Were there more passengers aboard the aircraft, and what was the name
of the pilot?
3. What is the correct cause of the crash; was it the fog, ice
formations on the wings of the plane, or was the plane hit by a bom
fired by a U.S. bomber that flew above Glenn Miller's plane.
4. What has become of Mrs. Glenn Miller, and his children. Does he have
an adopted son?
5. Did Glenn have (a) mistress(es) in London? Had Ilse Weinberger an
affair with him?
6. Who was the leader of the orchestra after his death?
7. What is true about the rumour, that Glenn died in the arms of a
postitute of a heart attack?
Well, enough for now. My dad hopes for a lot of response to this
e-mail. If you might have some links to Glenn Miller appreciation
sites, please write them down. Bye.
T. Dijkema (daughter), and G. Dijkema (father) tran.d...@wxs.nl
Gloscol
Well, there is a book published called "MILLERGATE" which states Miller was
alive when he was returned (ill/injured) to the USA and he died later in a
hospital in Ohio.
Further "proof" is set out in the book including details of a burial plot and
an alleged copy of a death certificate from the same hospital.
Suffice to say that the US authorities have always been very secretive about
the death of Miller and all requests for information are routinely rejected.
If as is suggested Miller died in some (then) unacceptable fashion how better
to disguise the truth than to "arrange" a plane crash.
Perhaps we will never know...............
Colin.
Hit Parade
(1)
Subject: Re: Questions concerning Glenn Miller's mysterious death
From: glo...@aol.com (Gloscol)
Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 13:40 EDT
Colin.
(2)
Dear Colin,
Your above comments are silly nonsense. There was a pilot with Glenn who also
died.
There is a good chance that Glenn's plane was bombed by returning US bombers
who were discharging unused bombs.
Ed Yorke
Kcityguy
Hello. I'm a member of the Glenn Miller Birthplace Society here in the States,
which sponsors a festival in his honor. (Coincidentally, the festival is this
coming weekend, in Glenn's hometown of Clarinda, Iowa.) The Web address of the
organization is (http://www.Clarinda.heartland.net/local/pages/glenn-miller).
There is also a Miller Society in London. I would recommend an excellent
biography of Glenn Miller by George T. Simon, called "Glenn Miller And His
Orchestra." There's also a 1,200-page book entitled "The Glenn Miller Army Air
Force Band" by Edward F. Polic. I'll take a stab at a few of your questions:
In a PBS documentary a few years ago, Mel Powell, pianist for the AAF band,
explained that he and one or two other musicians were scheduled to travel with
Glenn. But the weather had been bad for several days and continued to be poor
on the day of Glenn's departure. Glenn told them he would fly ahead and make
the arrangements for the band's trip to Paris, and the others could join him
later.
Mrs. Miller is deceased. She died in the 1960's. They adopted two children
before Glenn went overseas. Their son, Steve, lives in Las Vegas, and their
daughter, Jonnie, lives in California.
After Glenn's death, the AAF dance orchestra was ostensibly led by Ray
McKinley. After the war, former Miller civilian-band saxist Tex Beneke led the
official band for a few years. And after the Jimmy Stewart-June Allyson movie,
"The Glenn Miller Story," the Miller estate re-formed the official band under
McKinley's direction. It has operated continuously to this day. The current
leader is trombonist Larry O'Brien and draws capacity crowds at most of its
dates. There is also an officially sanctioned Glenn Miller Orchestra in Europe.
As for the rumor of Glenn Miller dying in a prostitute's arms, that is an old
tale that re-surfaced last year in a book by German author Udo Ufkotte, who
claimed to have been researching U.S. Secret Service files. (The rumor dates
back to the 1970s, as George Simon pointed out.) Unfortunately, the "new" rumor
made virtually every major newspaper and network newscast in the United States.
The author later admitted he had no documentation to support his claim about
Miller. At the time the rumor came out again, the United States Air Force
issued a rare official statement: "The report is incorrect. All known facts
indicated that Maj. Miller died on Dec. 15, 1944, when his plane crashed into
the English Channel, as originally reported."
In addition, author Ed Polic wrote recently that: "First of all, the Secret
Service has responsibility for two things: the President and the Treasury
Department, nothing else. Why then would they have any documents related to
Major Miller in Europe?"
Finally, if you can get ahold of a copy of the August 18, 1997, copy of the
"New Yorker" magazine at a library, writer Christopher Buckley shows how
ridiculous the whole prostitute story is. His article is called "Teutonic
Bombshells."
Hope this helps some. I'm sure many of the other Miller fans in our newsgroup
will have additional information.
Ron in Missouri
Richard Claar
Major Miller intended to make the earlier flight to France because of
impatience and a desire to get on with it (supposedly). His flying
companions were a Colonel Baesel and the pilot. F.O. Morgan. No one
knows what caused the plane to plunge into the channel, if that is
indeed what transpired. Mrs. Miller retired from the limelight and
lived quietly in, I believe, San Marino, Ca., until her death from a
blood clot in l966. She devoted most of her time and efforts to
raising the two children she and Glenn had adopted, Jonnie (a girl) and
Steve. Following Glenn's demise, the band was conducted by Jerry Gray
and Ray McKinley in the European theatre, later by Tex Beneke for about
4 years after the war. From l956 to '66 Ray McKinley resumed leadership
duties and the great clarinetist Buddy DeFranco was at the helm for
awhile. More recently trombonist Larry O'Brien has had the honor. The
rumours are pretty dicey and scurrilous. I'd like to think that our
hero didn't have affairs. mistresses or sessions with prostitutes, but
who knows? A man gets awfully lonesome when he's a long way from home
for an extended period. Even IF Miller had these dalliances, I would'nt
think any less of him--He was, after all, a human being with frailities
and foibles, not a God-like creature.
norm berge
TO & G, These quotes are from copy of war department missing aircraft
crew report / confirming verbal information to c-1 shaef rear c-64
airplane number 44-70285 missing and unreported since departure twinwood
field 1355 hours 15 december for france , pilot flight officer morgan
two passengers including major glenn miller - lets talk more fact than
fiction-at the time of millers departure while flying over the english
channel a bomber squadren was returning from a bombing mission over
europe as they were unable to drop there bombs on this mission , they
were orded to drop there bombs over the channel - experts have checked
the time that when both the miller and the bombers were over the
channel the times were so close that a bomb had to have hit millers
plane , glenns adopted daughter is living in sun city arizona and adoted
son steve living in las vegas , nevada and after the miller estate was
settled steve controls all his dads future musics releases , in a
artical i read a few years ago . if i can help dad inany other way
-regards norm at Jazr...@webtv.net
norm berge
TO T&G Dijkema, I send my apology to you both, i was to tired last night
i should have waited till this morning. Glenns sister not adoted
daughter lives im sun city, arizona .regards norm
Gloscol
hitp...@aol.com (Hit Parade) writes:
(3)
Dear Ed,
Sorry if my posting upset you; I am only quoting from the book which was
written by an Englishman and an American. Seemingly they applied for a copy of
the birth certificate for ALTON GLENN MILLER and recieved a copy of the Death
Certificate aswell. They interviewed a second world war veteran who was in the
next bed to Miller in the Hospital when he (Miller) died.
They discovered the burial plot of Miller (in California) and were warned off
in no uncertain manner by John Miller.
The possibility of American (or English) bombers returning from a bombing
mission
via the English Channel is somewhat remote as France was no longer in the war
at that time (obviously; otherwise Miller would not have been going there) and
we were bombing Germany. The direct route to/from Germany and the RAF bases in
East Anglia (from where the USAF operated) is via the North Sea.
There are two questions that when answered might clear up all the rumours:-
Question 1. Who is buried next to Helen Miller?
Question 2. Why does the US Government refuse to reveal any information on
Miller's Army record?
As I said it is a good story and I suggest we are never likely to know the
truth.
I for one don't mind which story is circulated as it is only the music that is
of importance to me; "what if?" scenarios make good reading but listening to
the music is, I would suggest, more beneficial.
Colin.
(In a very wet England)
Hit Parade
(1)
Dear Ed,
Sorry if my posting upset you; I am only quoting from the book which was
written by an Englishman and an American. Seemingly they applied for a copy of
the birth certificate for ALTON GLENN MILLER and received a copy of the Death
Certificate as well. They interviewed a second world war veteran who was in
the next bed to Miller in the Hospital when he (Miller) died.
They discovered the burial plot of Miller (in California) and were warned off
in no uncertain manner by John Miller.
The possibility of American (or English) bombers returning from a bombing via
the English Channel is somewhat remote as France was no longer in the war at
that time (obviously; otherwise Miller would not have been going there) and we
were bombing Germany. The direct route to/from Germany and the RAF bases in
East Anglia (from where the USAF operated) is via the North Sea.
There are two questions that when answered might clear up all the rumours:-
Question 1. Who is buried next to Helen Miller?
Question 2. Why does the US Government refuse to reveal any information on
Miller's Army record?
As I said it is a good story and I suggest we are never likely to know the
truth.
I for one don't mind which story is circulated as it is only the music that is
of importance to me; "what if?" scenarios make good reading but listening to
the music is, I would suggest, more beneficial.
Colin.
(In a very wet England)
(2)
Dear Colin,
Thank you for your reply. My remark was not directed toward you. I always
appreciate your writing efforts. Keep up the good work.
However, can we go back to my main point that I don't think you addressed with
either post? What about the pilot and the third companion? A conspiracy
dealing with three separate people makes no sense. A Glenn Miller conspiracy
seems unbelievable on the surface if you don't address the other two
companions.
Also, are you absolutely sure about the bombing aspect of this? I read a big
article on it a couple years ago, and no longer remember the details.
Best regards.
Ed
Kcityguy
Colin,
Does the "Millergate" book purport to say that Glenn Miller is buried next to
his wife, Helen? If this alleged grave is unmarked, how can the authors claim
to KNOW that Glenn Miller's body is in it -- or in any grave? (If the grave
were marked, of course, the media would be all over this story.)
And finally, if a plane crash was "arranged," what happened to the pilot and
the second passenger? Would anyone be so outrageous as to suggest that their
deaths were ALL faked (or, even more fantastically, that these people were
killed) to cover up for some supposed Miller misdeed? Sorry, I just don't buy
it.
Ron in Missouri
>>Subject: Re: Questions concerning Glenn Miller's mysterious death
>>From: glo...@aol.com (Gloscol)
>>Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 13:40 EDT
>>
>>Well, there is a book published called "MILLERGATE" which states Miller was
alive when he was returned (ill/injured) to the USA and he died later in a
hospital in Ohio.
>>
>>Further "proof" is set out in the book including details of a burial plot and
an alleged copy of a death certificate from the same hospital.
>>
>>Suffice to say that the US authorities have always been very secretive about
the death of Miller and all requests for information are routinely rejected.
>>
>>If as is suggested Miller died in some (then) unacceptable fashion how better
to disguise the truth than to "arrange" a plane crash.
>>
>>Perhaps we will never know...............
>>
>>Colin.
>>
>>Dear Colin,
>>
>>Your above comments are silly nonsense. There was a pilot with Glenn who
also died.
>>
>>There is a good chance that Glenn's plane was bombed by returning US bombers
who were discharging unused bombs.
>>
>>Ed Yorke
>>
>>
>>
>Dear Ed,
>
>Sorry if my posting upset you; I am only quoting from the book which was
written by an Englishman and an American. Seemingly they applied for a copy
the birth certificate for ALTON GLENN MILLER and recieved a copy of the Death
Certificate as well. They interviewed a second world war veteran who was in
the
>next bed to Miller in the Hospital when he (Miller) died.
>
>They discovered the burial plot of Miller (in California) and were warned off
in no uncertain manner by John Miller.
>
>The possibility of American (or English) bombers returning from a bombing
mission via the English Channel is somewhat remote as France was no longer in
the war at that time (obviously; otherwise Miller would not have been going
there) and we were bombing Germany. The direct route to/from Germany and the
RAF bases
in East Anglia (from where the USAF operated) is via the North Sea.
>There are two questions that when answered might clear up all the rumours:
>
>Question 1. Who is buried next to Helen Miller?
>Question 2. Why does the US Government refuse to reveal any information on
Miller's Army record?
>
>
>As I said it is a good story and I suggest we are never likely to know the
truth.
>
>I for one don't mind which story is circulated as it is only the music that is
of importance to me; "what if?" scenarios make good reading but listening to
the music is, I would suggest, more beneficial.
>
>Colin
ellensmith
I read recently that one theory was that the
plane had been destroyed by English weapons.
But it was probably more likely that the plane
was probably blown into the sea.
I also read that Helen Miller his wife refused to believe
he was dead. "Nobody has seen him dead" she kept saying.
"He'll come walking in here one of these days." **********
Finally in 1947 she admitted he must be dead.
********* These quotes were taken from the book
"The Show Business Nobody Knows" by Earl Wilson.
Copyright 1971. Cowles Book Company, Inc. A subsidiary
of Henry Regnery Company. Chicago. New York
That's where I got the other information about Glenn Miller too.
(I've been reading a book by Hedda Hopper and thought
she had something in it about Glenn Miller but she didn't.
She had some things about Frank Sinatra tho.)
Ulf Åbjörnsson
The book Millergate is worth reading. The author - I can't think of his name
right now - has tried to dig out every piece of evidence about GM's death -
and has found a lot of mysterious anomalies and a lot of contradictionary
answers from American authoroties.
The whole thing "smells"!
Everybody who has not done so already, get the book and read it!
Ulf A
Gloscol
hitp...@aol.com (Hit Parade) writes:
>However, can we go back to my main point that I don't think you addressed
>with either post? What about the pilot and the third companion? A conspiracy
>dealing with three separate people makes no sense. A Glenn Miller conspiracy
>seems unbelievable on the surface if you don't address the other two
>companions.
The book states that there was no crash at all - Miller arrived in Paris and
within a few days was sent home to the USA either ill or injured.
Strange how the actual plane has never been found in the English Channel.
Funny how the TITANIC can be found in thousands of fathoms of water but no
plane can be found in a depth of just a few fathoms of
water!....................and many have tried.
>Also, are you absolutely sure about the bombing aspect of this? I read a big
>article on it a couple years ago, and no longer remember the details.
No, I can only use my judgement; the USAF operated from Lakenheath, Mildenhall
and Alconbury (in fact they still do). Routes to and from Germany from those
airfields are diametrically opposed to the routes to/from the English Channel.
Hell, I was only 4 years old so I cannot verify the flight crews routes.......
It is a good story that has never really had a sufficiently "acceptable"
ending.
Before we upset all the readers on the newsgroup perhaps we should correspond
directly.
Colin.
In a fine and sunny England today.
Gloscol
kcit...@aol.com (Kcityguy) writes:
>Does the "Millergate" book purport to say that Glenn Miller is buried next to
>his wife, Helen? If this alleged grave is unmarked, how can the authors claim
>to KNOW that Glenn Miller's body is in it -- or in any grave? (If the grave
>were marked, of course, the media would be all over this story.)
Yes the book does claim Miller is buried in the plot. They found 6 family
plots
of which one was occupied but unmarked. the remaining 5 being for Helen, the
children and his parents. The authors say they interviewed the cemetery
Manager.
>And finally, if a plane crash was "arranged," what happened to the pilot and
>the second passenger? Would anyone be so outrageous as to suggest that their
>deaths were ALL faked (or, even more fantastically, that these people were
>killed) to cover up for some supposed Miller misdeed? Sorry, I just don't buy
>it.
The book states that there was no plane crash at all. The plane arrived in
France
(they have proof of its landing) and within a few days Miller was sent home to
the USA apparently injured/ill.
Ron, I am just quoting the book; it really is a good detective story and all
manner of kooks have had their say over the years - will we ever know?
Colin.
ellensmith
That's not what Earl Wilson said in his book.
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Ron!
Read the book! How can you argue against a book that you have not even read.
It is quite a survey and rises many suspicious points. The American
authorities seem to have lot hidden. They have all curious sorts of
explanations to why they can't open the files to the author.
The author tries to draw some conclusions where it is possible, for the rest
he leaves it open to you.
My conclusion is: there is something fishy concerning Glenn Miller's
passing. And that does not make his music any worse!
Ulf
Kcityguy
Hi Colin, Ulf, et al.
I certainly will read the book, if I can find it here in the States. But, like
Ed Yorke, I still am scratching my head... I'm not upset by any means, but as a
longtime reporter and editor for AP and major newspapers, I am merely curious.
I see what we in the news business call "holes" in the story you are quoting
from the book.
Since I don't have access to the book yet... Colin, you say the authors
interviewed the cemetery manager, and one of the plots (in addition to
Helen's), is occupied. Let's assume there is indeed a body in that unmarked
grave. My question is: How do the authors know it's Glenn Miller down there and
not someone else?
Also, if there never was a plane crash, why have the pilot and the other
passenger never been heard from again? Do the authors give an explanation for
their simultaneous disappearance?
As I say, I am just curious, and I don't discount the fact that there are
scores of unanswered questions about Miller's death. Thanks!
Ron in Missouri
ellensmith
Well I'm very glad that I turned you all on to
this book! But it's not all about Glenn Miller.
Just a chapter of it is. But it's very good! :)
Pat Lloyd
Kcityguy (kcit...@aol.com) wrote:
> As for the rumor of Glenn Miller dying in a prostitute's arms, that is an old
> tale that re-surfaced last year in a book by German author Udo Ufkotte, who
> claimed to have been researching U.S. Secret Service files. (The rumor dates
> back to the 1970s, as George Simon pointed out.) Unfortunately, the "new" rumor
> made virtually every major newspaper and network newscast in the United States.
> The author later admitted he had no documentation to support his claim about
> Miller. At the time the rumor came out again, the United States Air Force
> issued a rare official statement: "The report is incorrect. All known facts
> indicated that Maj. Miller died on Dec. 15, 1944, when his plane crashed into
> the English Channel, as originally reported."
Udo Ulfkotte, reporter for the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, found the
information in the German Intelligence (BND) archives, not the in the U.S.
intelligence archives -- according to an AFP newsrelease dated july 1997.
Apparently, the WW2 german intelligence found out that G.M. died in the
arms of a prostitue in Paris.
His affirmation that such news, if it would have become widely known in
december 1944, would have spoiled the Christmas season and could have
even affected Allied morale (not to cause a turnaround in WW2, mind you)
makes sense. Thus, to preserve morale and the pristine image of G.M.,
american intelligence had to give him a more suitable death.
This would have have been the first, nor the last time "the greater good"
had taken precedence to the truth ("Not all truths are good to say", I've
been told many times...).
That G.Miller would have died in the arms of a prostitue does not diminish
G.M.'s qualities as a musician, or his importance in musical history. If he
died in a Paris bordello, he would have been only one of many musicians
with turbulent personal lives. It did not make him a killer, a sexual
molester, a mobster, drug dealer or what have you not. It would have
only shown he had his own personnal weaknesses, too.
(BTW, for the susceptible one, this is *NOT* an attach on G. Miller.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pat Lloyd
Environmental Engineering IV
Carleton University
Email address: pll...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ellensmith
On 14 Jun 1998 17:01:41 GMT, pll...@chat.carleton.ca (Pat Lloyd)
wrote:
>
>That G.Miller would have died in the arms of a prostitue does not diminish
>G.M.'s qualities as a musician, or his importance in musical history. I
Well, how did he die in her arms? Did he faint or what?
Michael Shoshani
on 14 Jun 1998 17:01:41 GMT in article <6m0vll$9ti$2...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> in alt.music.big-band, Pat Lloyd <pll...@chat.carleton.ca> was compelled to write:
> Udo Ulfkotte, reporter for the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, found the
> information in the German Intelligence (BND) archives, not the in the U.S.
> intelligence archives -- according to an AFP newsrelease dated july 1997.
> Apparently, the WW2 german intelligence found out that G.M. died in the
> arms of a prostitue in Paris.
> His affirmation that such news, if it would have become widely known in
> december 1944, would have spoiled the Christmas season and could have
> even affected Allied morale (not to cause a turnaround in WW2, mind you)
> makes sense. Thus, to preserve morale and the pristine image of G.M.,
> american intelligence had to give him a more suitable death.
Then why would GERMAN intelligence not have propagated this "story"?
I'm sure that the same Axis powers that employed "Tokyo Rose" and "Lord
Haw Haw" would have LOVED to have gloated over the ignominious death in
the arms of a prostitute of America's most visible cultural icon in
Europe. American intelligence had nothing to do with giving him a more
suitable death; they were busy trying to also explain the deaths of Col.
Baesell (whose airplane trip it WAS--he was going to Paris to get
champagne bottled refilled. Champagne could not be purchased unless you
brought your own bottle, because you couldn't get any new ones) and Flight
Officer Morgan, who flew the plane. Why were these two never recovered?
Morgan was the personal pilot of one of the generals directing operations
in that theatre of the war. A vice-president of a large corporation
doesn't lose his personal chauffeur and not try to track him down.
> That G.Miller would have died in the arms of a prostitue does not diminish
> G.M.'s qualities as a musician
But it WOULD have gone against the man's very nature and character. Glenn
Miller died in a plane flying in sub-zero weather with NO DE-ICING
EQUIPMENT (the particular model being flown did not COME with de-icing
equipment), on the third day of a delayed flight. He was attempting to fly
over ahead of his band to make arrangements for their billeting and
performances. THAT was his nature--take care of business. It is a
tempting thought to picture him dying in the arms of a voluptuous
mademoiselle, but the fact is that Miller was famous for, and was well
known by everyone close to him as, being the kind of person who was so
anally-retentive he could defecate diamonds. He COULD NOT cut loose and
relax--the man was incapable of simply taking a day off and having a good
time and enjoying himself. His mind was always watching the business of
running a band and a publishing house.
Going to a brothel when he could have been setting up a performance would
have been completely out of his "all-work-no-rest" character. This was
someone who rehearsed his orchestra for hours every day, sometimes until 3
AM. A man who lead an orchestra whose members never hit a wrong note or
messed up because "it wasn't allowed". Someone absolutely focused on the
business of selling music, to the extent of any distractions.
A lot of things do not get answered by the "died in the arms of a
prostitute" theory (which by the way was already debunked in 1974 in
George T. Simon's biography). Flight Officer Johnny Morgan was a crack
pilot who was experienced in flying in bad weather. He was flying a C-64
Norseman, a nine-seater single-engine aircraft. This plane was not
equipped with de-icing equipment. The flight was ordered by Col Norman
Baesell, who was rather a gay blade who DID enjoy painting Paris red. He
also outranked Miller. The party was seen off by Don Haynes, who was the
business manager of Miller's civilian band and was doing the same thing
with the AAF band; also by Sgt Zeke Zarchy. The last thing anyone heard
from the plane was Miller looking around and exclaiming "Hey! Where the
hell are the parachutes?!", to which the fun-loving Baesell responded
"What's the matter Miller? Do you want to live forever?".
The plane took off and that was it.
Three days later the band arrived in Paris expecting to be greeted by
Miller. He wasn't there. They waited two hours for Don Haynes to get
buses. They were curious as to where Miller was but nobody was worried.
Yet.
The next day Don Haynes reported "Don't write home about this, and there's
no cause for alarm, but they can't locate the Major." This went on for
several days; meanwhile, Haynes did checking with headquarders and found
that all flights from England had been grounded for the past week. There
was a report of only one flight having left for France, a single-engine
plane, but it had not been heard from since.
Haynes next went to SHEAF headquarters. He suggested to General Barker,
head of personnel, that a call be placed directly to Baesell's commanding
officer General Goodrich. Simon quotes from Haynes' diary: "Barker asked
if Col Baesell was there, and with that Goodrich let out a blast to the
effect that Baesell flew to Paris on Friday and was due back yesterday,
and the so-and-so hadn't returned and he hadn't heard from him. Barker
then brought Goodrich up-to-date on what was going on. He was furious when
I told him they had flown a C-64, which he said had no de-icing equipment,
because icing conditions were prevalent. (It was 34 degrees at Twinwood
Farms [where the airstrip was], and over the Channel it was eight to ten
degrees colder.) Goodrigh expressed great disappointment with Morgan, his
personal pilot, for flying a C-64 over the Channel in that kind of
weather. General Goodrich said he'd have a search instituted as of
daybreak tomorrow, but it appeared they had iced up and gone into the
Channel! General Barker hung up the telephone and, turning to me, said
'It looks very bad, Lieutenant. I'm afraid Major Miller has had it!' ".
Simon runs through all the stories of Miller being shot down and
dismembered, dying in a brothel, and Baesell being implicated in the black
market and shot Glenn and the pilot on the way to France and landing the
plane himself. He concludes that it is difficult for some people to
accept the obvious: Glenn Miller was simply the victim of some terribly
bad judgment on the part of a colonel too anxious for his own good to get
to Paris, and a pilot too adventuresome for his or anybody else's good.
--
wwa.com!shoshani // Reader, suppose you were an idiot;
Michael Shoshani // and suppose you were a member of Congress;
Chicago IL, USA // but I repeat myself.
http://www.wwa.com/~shoshani/ // --Mark Twain
Pat Lloyd
ellensmith (et...@swbell.net) wrote:
> On 14 Jun 1998 17:01:41 GMT, pll...@chat.carleton.ca (Pat Lloyd)
> wrote:
> >
> >That G.Miller would have died in the arms of a prostitue does not diminish
> >G.M.'s qualities as a musician, or his importance in musical history. I
> Well, how did he die in her arms? Did he faint or what?
According to that press release I talked about, it was of a heart attack
-- that's what supposed to be said in those Germain WW2 intelligence
archives. I could translate that 1997 newsbit from french, if you want it.
Kcityguy
>That G.Miller would have died in the arms of a prostitue does not
diminish G.M.'s qualities as a musician, or his importance in musical history.
>
> According to that press release I talked about, it was of a heart attack --
that's what supposed to be said in those Germain WW2 intelligence archives. I
could translate that 1997 newsbit from french, if you want it.
Michael Shoshani makes some excellent points in his eloquent posting -- not the
least of which is: If German intelligence had this alleged information on
Miller's death, why would it not have been publicized to humiliate the United
States?
Finally, as George Simon pointed out in his book: upon entering service, Miller
was in excellent health. He was only 40 years old at the time of his death. A
heart attack occurring in such a healthful young man is not impossible, but the
odds are against it.
Ron in Missouri
P.S.I am trying to keep an open mind until I read this book, "Millergate," but
I fear the Miller stories will persist for years... Ballistics tests proved
that President Kennedy was killed by three bullets fired from the same rifle --
in front of thousands of witnesses -- and yet there is no shortage of wild
theories. Glenn Miller disappeared into the fog... what an easy mark his death
is for conspiracy theorists.
Pat Lloyd
Kcityguy (kcit...@aol.com) wrote:
> >That G.Miller would have died in the arms of a prostitue does not
> diminish G.M.'s qualities as a musician, or his importance in musical history.
> >
> > Well, how did he die in her arms? Did he faint or what?
> > According to that press release I talked about, it was of a heart attack --
> that's what supposed to be said in those Germain WW2 intelligence archives. I
> could translate that 1997 newsbit from french, if you want it.
> ____________________
> Michael Shoshani makes some excellent points in his eloquent posting -- not the
> least of which is: If German intelligence had this alleged information on
> Miller's death, why would it not have been publicized to humiliate the United
> States?
WW2 German intelligence was, in 1944, an organization that was no longer
operating at 100% capacity/efficiency/perfectly. December 1944 was the last
days of the Nazi regime (more or less) and one should not be surprised
that things did not run as smoothly for them as it once did. Methinks
operatives had the information, but it did not make its way to proprer
Nazi command authority in time to make a difference.
> Finally, as George Simon pointed out in his book: upon entering service, Miller
> was in excellent health. He was only 40 years old at the time of his death. A
> heart attack occurring in such a healthful young man is not impossible, but the
> odds are against it.
> Ron in Missouri
How many of the era's jazzmen died in their young age because of too harsh
a lifestyle? Bix Beiderbecke (sp ?), Bunny Berrigan, etc. That G.M. would
have abused his health would not have been surprising.
And getting a world-famous musician to volunteer for active service is/was
good P.R./propaganda. "Giving" him perfect health could have been probably
decided for propaganda reasons...
Control of information, image, cliches and appearances are so important in war
era... or in electoral or anti-trust campaigns. Let's not forget that.
BTW, I'm not insisting G.Miller *did* die in a bordello (or wherever). I'm
only saying anything's possible (like that "friendly fire" theory
mentionned in the current thread).
ellensmith
Just for the record, I wanted to say that Earl Wilson didn't
mention anything about a prostitute in his book.
And he quotes the band member as saying, "Do you want
to live forever?" Why don't you let somebody else enjoy
your money?"
His book is pretty provocative, so I think Earl would
have written about it if it were true.
BOSPOP27
>Well, there is a book published called "MILLERGATE" which states Miller was
>alive when he was returned (ill/injured) to the USA and he died later in a
>hospital in Ohio
In the book, the author says that GM was so horribly disfigured that the
authorities in Europe could not even identify him. So, how could he have been
identifed in the Ohio hospital?
bp
BOSPOP27
>Strange how the actual plane has never been found in the English Channel.
>Funny how the TITANIC can be found in thousands of fathoms of water but no
>plane can be found in a depth of just a few fathoms of
>water!....................and many have tried.
The Titanic is a HUGE ship and people knew approximately where it sank. The
Miller plane was a lightweight, single engine plane (which probably broke up
upon impact) and no one knows exactly where it went down.
bp
BOSPOP27
>Read the book! How can you argue against a book that you have not even read.
>It is quite a survey and rises many suspicious points. The American
>authorities seem to have lot hidden. They have all curious sorts of
>explanations to why they can't open the files to the author.
>
>The author tries to draw some conclusions where it is possible, for the rest
>he leaves it open to you.
>
>My conclusion is: there is something fishy concerning Glenn Miller's
>passing. And that does not make his music any worse!
>
>
Remember, this book represents one man's opinions. It is not the gospel, rock
solid, irrefutable truth.
bp
BOSPOP27
>And getting a world-famous musician to volunteer for active service is/was
>good P.R./propaganda. "Giving" him perfect health could have been probably
>decided for propaganda reasons...
>
>
I think we're streching it a bit here. The decision to enlist was all GM's -
no one had to "get " him to volunteer. He was rejected by the Navy because of
his eyesight. The Army decided that the fact that his vision was 20/20 with
glasses was good enough for them.
bp
ellensmith
I believe his plane was a one motor, known as the
Norseman.
(source: Earl Wilson's book, The Show Business
Nobody Knows)
Ulf Åbjörnsson
But his opinions are very well based on a lot of investigations!
Ulf
BOSPOP27 skrev i meddelandet
<199806171729...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
SNAV88
<<
But his opinions are very well based on a lot of investigations!
>>
Except a guy in Wisconsin, by the name of Vito Pascucci, who is living, and was
there at the time.
Norman F. Perry
Isn't that what all books are? One person's (author's) opinion?
Norm (in FL)
**********************
BOSPOP27 wrote:
> >>
> >>Read the book!
BOSPOP27
Not necessarily. It could be a compilation of all known FACTS about a certain
subject (not unlike recent Titanic books documenting how the ship really sank.)
bp
Norman F. Perry
I was referring to "authored" books. . .not "compilations".
Norm (in FL)
***********************BOSPOP27 wrote:
> >
> >Not necessarily. It could be a compilation of all known FACTS about a certain
> >subject (not unlike recent Titanic books documenting how the ship really sank.)
> >bp
Nathan Jackson
> Glenn Miller died in a plane accident over the English Channel. Any
> other story is just
rubbish.
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Thank you for letting us know, God!
Ulf
>Nathan Jackson: Glenn Miller died in a plane accident over the English
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Norman F. Perry
Oh, boy, here we go again!!! Come on, guys, we've now heard all
the pros and cons on this topic. Please, let's let it rest.
Norm (in FL)
**************************
Spungehead
<< Oh, boy, here we go again!!! Come on, guys, we've now heard all
the pros and cons on this topic. Please, let's let it rest.>>
Sorry....couldn't help but get a dark chuckle outa this wording. Since when
has there been any "pros" to Glenn's death??
Unless of course you were Tommy Dorsey.....
Andy
Norman F. Perry
You know, a person can't even make an honest post on this ng
without getting a sarcastic reply. There's always someone out
there, unfortunately, who just has to get a "dig" in somewhere.
Norm (in FL)
**********************
Spungehead
>Norm (in FL)
>**********************
>Spungehead wrote:
Well Norm, I'm sorry you took it this way. I just thought it was funny the way
it was worded.....obviously not quite exactly what you meant to convey, and I
certainly wasn't trying to "take a shot" at you. But while we're discussing
that, all your post did was to request that we stop discussing an issue that's
of interest to many big band fans. Alot of folks are convinced that Glenn
ended up at the bottom of the channel (sorry if that sounds callous), but some
think there's something more to it. I personally don't have any opinion on the
matter, but it is interesting to hear all the different theories.
After all, it IS a newsgroup.....if you see a subject line you don't like, it's
very easy to pass by (or delete if you download the stuff). It's akin to
trying to stop folks on the UFO newsgroup from discussing new developments in
the Roswell case.
still friends?,
Andy
Norman F. Perry
Andy,
I don't like to pass over the opportunity where there is the
possibility of learning something new on a given subject. But the
postings on this subject has become redundant. . .the "same old
same old".
You don't generally see me taking "pot shots" at anyone stating
their opinion. I respect that. But this subject has resulted in
"beating a dead horse" (no pun intended) and has become very
heatedly argumentative. If you have followed all the many different
"subject" headings that have been started and fought lately on
this subject, then you would know that there have been no, as
you say, "new developments" on it.
I never intend to deny anyone's right to give an opinion. I
always try to be polite in my postings, and I only intended my
message as a polite suggestion. With a little effort, one can
always make his point without being belligerent (not referring to
you).
Respectfully (and friendly),
Norm (in FL)
******************
Spungehead wrote:
> Well, Norm, I'm sorry you took it this way. I just thought it was funny the way
> it was worded.....obviously not quite exactly what you meant to convey, and I
> certainly wasn't trying to "take a shot" at you. But while we're discussing
> that, all your post did was to request that we stop discussing an issue that's
> of interest to many big band fans. A lot of folks are convinced that Glenn