"punchy" bass drum sound
Scott DiNitto
Okay, how do I do it?
more details?
I want to get the "punchy" bass drum sound heard in pantera,
metallica's AJFA album, and megadeth. I propose boosting +20db in
5-10khz range, boosting 1-5khz by 10db, cutting 200-1hz by 10db and
boosting 20-200hz by 10db. Would this work? This would also require
monster equalization.
How can I do it best on a mixing board with three eq's (80hz, 2.2khz,
12khz)?
SD
ElevenShad
>I want to get the "punchy" bass drum sound heard in pantera,
>metallica's AJFA album, and megadeth. I propose boosting +20db in
>5-10khz range, boosting 1-5khz by 10db, cutting 200-1hz by 10db and
>boosting 20-200hz by 10db. Would this work?
Why don't you try it and find out? It would only take a second...
> This would also require
>monster equalization.
I seriously doubt if this would work, especially with the limited EQ on your
board. I know this has been bludgeoned into the ground, but honestly, the best
way to do it is to get a great drummer with a great sound on a great kit that's
tuned really well in a great room and mic him/her with great mics with great
mic preamps using good microphone technique. As much as possible, get the
sound with your microphones rather than trying to get it by maxing out your
EQ...but obviously, most of this is in the hands of the drummer, the kit, and
the room, pretty much in that order.
-Ken/Eleven Shadows
http://www.theeleventhhour.com/elevenshadows
Les Cargill
My very limited understanding is the Metallica/Megadeath
kick sound is not achieved by drum tuning but by the liberal
use of EQ and compression. It's not a "natural" kick
sound, but one designed to fit around the Marshall-heavy
sound of the rest of the instrumentation. Sounds
a lot like a D112 on a "regular" kick through a PA to me.
This opinion is based on hearsay and other limited
untrustworthy information, so anybody knows better,
speak up!
Many people try to emulate the sounds on
favorite CDs, but why not try to get what your drummer
really sounds like on tape? If he *really* sounds that way,
use the recording process to adjust his tuning and style
closer to what he really *wants* to sound like.
I know of several personnel changes in bands
over what came out on tape. Caveat record-or. :)
>
> -Ken/Eleven Shadows
> http://www.theeleventhhour.com/elevenshadows
--
Les Cargill - lcar...@worldnet.att.net
DIVISION BY ZERO
In article <6hollv$b...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, Les Cargill
<lcar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> ElevenShad wrote:
> >
> > >I want to get the "punchy" bass drum sound heard in pantera,
> > >metallica's AJFA album, and megadeth. I propose boosting +20db in
> > >5-10khz range, boosting 1-5khz by 10db, cutting 200-1hz by 10db and
> > >boosting 20-200hz by 10db. Would this work?
> >
> > Why don't you try it and find out? It would only take a second...
> >
What I find gets sorta close (again, depending upon the factors alluded to
by Ken) is to stick a good mic way insode the drum pretty close to the
beater. That gets the nice THWACK (and hopefully a bit of chain noise
from the pedal). You can add boominess by placing a second mic further
out (or even outside). Tuning CANNOT be overemphasized. If you can talk
your drummer into it, leave a tiny bit of wrinkle in the head, and use
some dampening along the bottom edge (a down pillow, if you like, or a
folded down comforter--it'll be heavy enough to stay in place).
>
> Many people try to emulate the sounds on
> favorite CDs, but why not try to get what your drummer
> really sounds like on tape? If he *really* sounds that way,
> use the recording process to adjust his tuning and style
> closer to what he really *wants* to sound like.
>
But wait, Ken, you're assuming that we want to be ORIGINAL...
Scott DiNitto
On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:04:48 -0500, Les Cargill
<lcar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>ElevenShad wrote:
>>
>> >I want to get the "punchy" bass drum sound heard in pantera,
>> >metallica's AJFA album, and megadeth. I propose boosting +20db in
>> >5-10khz range, boosting 1-5khz by 10db, cutting 200-1hz by 10db and
>> >boosting 20-200hz by 10db. Would this work?
>>
>> Why don't you try it and find out? It would only take a second...
>>
>
>Many people try to emulate the sounds on
>favorite CDs, but why not try to get what your drummer
>really sounds like on tape? If he *really* sounds that way,
>use the recording process to adjust his tuning and style
>closer to what he really *wants* to sound like.
>
I am the drummer. And I am not really trying to "copy" a sound from an
album, but the fact is the ones I mentioned the bass drum is quite
"loud" and "present". That is the sound I want, something that is
solid and can be heard.
SD
CHEESE
I'm going to suggest an answer to this question that has nothing to do
with EQ settings, mic placement or compression.
There is a little metal disk you can buy at drum shops that you glue
to the kick drum head, right where the batter strikes it. Add this to
your drummer's kit, tune up the kick drum real good and voila.
Instant Metallica kick drum sound. I played with a guy who swore by
these things. Drove me nuts when we were recording because I like a
fuller kick sound, with less, not more, definition. But if the
clicky, well defined sound is what you want, this is the way to get
it.
-TEX
-
EEE!!! A BUS!!!!
http://www.bayarea.net/~toyboat/3YD/
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Amphitheatre/8009/
Eleven Shadows
> I am the drummer.
So apparently you have no plans on getting a new drummer then? <g>
>And I am not really trying to "copy" a sound from an
> album, but the fact is the ones I mentioned the bass drum is quite
> "loud" and "present". That is the sound I want, something that is
> solid and can be heard.
Well, they both have a certain sound that they begin with, but both have
really heavy midrange and that basketball-bouncing sort of sound. Give
it a whirl and see what you come up with -- I'm just really into getting
the drum sound as much as possible beforehand through tuning, mic
choice, room choice, etc., and getting it as close as possible to a
happening sound, and *then* applying EQ, compression, bla bla bla if
wanted/needed...
--
Ken/Eleven Shadows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* Eleven Shadows * ES songs on Real Audio * Music Reviews
* Travels-India * Tibet * Real Audio Radio Shows * More...
http://www.theeleventhhour.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Les Cargill
Scott DiNitto wrote:
>
> On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:04:48 -0500, Les Cargill
> <lcar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >ElevenShad wrote:
> >>
> >> >I want to get the "punchy" bass drum sound heard in pantera,
> >> >metallica's AJFA album, and megadeth. I propose boosting +20db in
> >> >5-10khz range, boosting 1-5khz by 10db, cutting 200-1hz by 10db and
> >> >boosting 20-200hz by 10db. Would this work?
> >>
> >> Why don't you try it and find out? It would only take a second...
> >>
> >
> >Many people try to emulate the sounds on
> >favorite CDs, but why not try to get what your drummer
> >really sounds like on tape? If he *really* sounds that way,
> >use the recording process to adjust his tuning and style
> >closer to what he really *wants* to sound like.
> >
> bass drum is quite "loud" and "present". That is the sound I want,
> something that is solid and can be heard.
Well, I walked to that one, Scott. There are a lot of "how do I
sound like so-and-so" posts here, and I though this were one of 'em.
I also cut a demo recently that directly caused a drummer changeout.
Surprised me when it happened.
Sorry 'bout that :)
I beleive your original plan will do what you want ,with some
tuning of various parts.
>
> SD
Eleven Shadows
CHEESE wrote:
>
> I'm going to suggest an answer to this question that has nothing to do
> with EQ settings, mic placement or compression.
>
> There is a little metal disk you can buy at drum shops that you glue
> to the kick drum head, right where the batter strikes it. Add this to
> your drummer's kit, tune up the kick drum real good and voila.
> Instant Metallica kick drum sound. I played with a guy who swore by
> these things. Drove me nuts when we were recording because I like a
> fuller kick sound, with less, not more, definition. But if the
> clicky, well defined sound is what you want, this is the way to get
> it.
Yeah, I emailed Scott with something to the effect of this. Some guys
are placing metal washers on the kick drum head. That's kinda what I
mean about the whole "get the sound first, then worry about EQ" thing.
What kind of beat, head, drum, and everything else that you are using
really effects the sound.
Brian Redmond
> >> >I want to get the "punchy" bass drum sound heard in pantera,
> >> >metallica's AJFA album, and megadeth. I propose boosting +20db in
> >> >5-10khz range, boosting 1-5khz by 10db, cutting 200-1hz by 10db and
> >> >boosting 20-200hz by 10db. Would this work?
im kind of jumping into the middle of a post here, but what eq do you own
that can boost any frequency by 20db!? I've got sweepable and parametric
that will do +-15db and my graphic only does +-12. im not going to say that
those settings (however you're getting them) won't do what you want, but i
would think that would completely murder any kick drum sound. i try not to
cut or boost by more than 6db in most cases. eq and compression can enhance
kick, but it really has to start with a good sounding drum. my best advice
is to try to tuning the drum without any dampening, ie pillows, blankets, if
you aren't already. this makes a huge difference in getting a strong,
present kick sound. second, play around with mike positioning *alot*. try
inside, outside, a foot or so back, front side, back side, all over. then
play with eq. and don't eq it before it's in the mix with everything else.
also, wherever you're boosting the kick, don't boost anything else in that
range like bass guitar. hope that helps.
Brian Redmond
Commercial Pain Studios
http://www.dreamscape.com/idea/index.html
Bruce McIntyre
>
> > >> >I want to get the "punchy" bass drum sound heard in pantera,
> > >> >metallica's AJFA album, and megadeth. I propose boosting +20db in
> > >> >5-10khz range, boosting 1-5khz by 10db, cutting 200-1hz by 10db and
> > >> >boosting 20-200hz by 10db. Would this work?
>
>
To get the sound you are hearing requires MUCH more than
a simple tweaking of the eq. Like most professional
recordings, the sound is a complex layer. To get the
initial "punch" you start with a $2000 microphone, through
a $2000-$5000 mic pre-amp then through a $3000-$20,000
compressor. Then most often it is compressed again through
another high quality compressor at mix down, with yet another
high quality multiband compressor durring mastering.
Often times with the "metal" sound there may be 3-5 sounds
layered to every one that you think you hear. That may
include many different kick drums sounds layered and mixed
together to create one phat, full thick sound.
I shutter to think of the noise and phase offset you
would generate using the above eq settings. It isn't
that you can't do that, but for certain you can't use
that kind of eq setting on any cheap eq and expect to
hear the results you are wanting.
- Bruce -
Audio Wave Productions
Scott DiNitto
>
>im kind of jumping into the middle of a post here, but what eq do you own
>that can boost any frequency by 20db!?
I have been using a regular "stereo" equalizer HOWEVER I gain the
additional 10 by running it through the EQ twice
>I've got sweepable and parametric
>that will do +-15db and my graphic only does +-12. im not going to say that
>those settings (however you're getting them) won't do what you want, but i
>would think that would completely murder any kick drum sound. i try not to
>cut or boost by more than 6db in most cases. eq and compression can enhance
You see I HAVE gotten the sound I think is okay. But my question is
"How do the pros do it"... I CAN emulate a decent sound that I like
through EQ (yes I can) but the process is tedious. I was wondering if
there was a box out there that contained the eq/compression made
specificly for the kick drum. I know for a fact EQ is involed with
pro's because I have a sepultura album with three extra "raw" drum
tracks. The kick on those tracks does not sound the same as it does in
the produced version.
>kick, but it really has to start with a good sounding drum. my best advice
>is to try to tuning the drum without any dampening, ie pillows, blankets, if
>you aren't already. this makes a huge difference in getting a strong,
>present kick sound. second, play around with mike positioning *alot*. try
>inside, outside, a foot or so back, front side, back side, all over. then
>play with eq. and don't eq it before it's in the mix with everything else.
>also, wherever you're boosting the kick, don't boost anything else in that
>range like bass guitar. hope that helps.
Well, I could use some work on the the mic placement I think. I
actually found raising the eq on the high end and mid-high end helps
me get the sound I want a lot more. Everyone is downing
equalization... saying it "ALL" starts in the kick drum. True, most of
it does rely on the kick drum. But I have found that EQ CAN turn a
boomy sounding bass drum to a nice thwack if used right.
SD
Scott DiNitto
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:21:07 -0700, Bruce McIntyre <musi...@lsil.com>
wrote:
>>
>> > >> >I want to get the "punchy" bass drum sound heard in pantera,
>> > >> >metallica's AJFA album, and megadeth. I propose boosting +20db in
>> > >> >5-10khz range, boosting 1-5khz by 10db, cutting 200-1hz by 10db and
>> > >> >boosting 20-200hz by 10db. Would this work?
>>
>>
>
>To get the sound you are hearing requires MUCH more than
>a simple tweaking of the eq. Like most professional
>recordings, the sound is a complex layer. To get the
>initial "punch" you start with a $2000 microphone, through
>a $2000-$5000 mic pre-amp then through a $3000-$20,000
>compressor. Then most often it is compressed again through
>another high quality compressor at mix down, with yet another
>high quality multiband compressor durring mastering.
I like how you give advice in prices. Because I understand electronics
well enough to know how to design an amplifier, I am going to shock
you and tell you I can build a pre-amp you may buy for $10,000 for a
couple hundred bucks. I have seen schematics from RANA and other
scources, and man, they use some pretty common stuff. Alot of the
reason for high prices has to do with the fact the market is not super
huge and manufacturing costs sometimes cost a lot for low yeilds. I am
sure there is a lot more to the high prices, but hey, I don't know
everything (just a lot).
SD
>Often times with the "metal" sound there may be 3-5 sounds
>layered to every one that you think you hear. That may
>include many different kick drums sounds layered and mixed
>together to create one phat, full thick sound.
>
>I shutter to think of the noise and phase offset you
>would generate using the above eq settings. It isn't
>that you can't do that, but for certain you can't use
>that kind of eq setting on any cheap eq and expect to
>hear the results you are wanting.
Again I state I ALREADY HAVE!! But if you are saying the pro's do it
your way (and your a pro right?) then thanks. That's what I really
wanted to know.
SD
Chris Gieseke
Bruce McIntyre wrote:
>
> >
> > > >> >I want to get the "punchy" bass drum sound heard in pantera,
> > > >> >metallica's AJFA album, and megadeth. I propose boosting +20db in
> > > >> >5-10khz range, boosting 1-5khz by 10db, cutting 200-1hz by 10db and
> > > >> >boosting 20-200hz by 10db. Would this work?
> >
> >
>
> To get the sound you are hearing requires MUCH more than
> a simple tweaking of the eq. Like most professional
> recordings, the sound is a complex layer. To get the
> initial "punch" you start with a $2000 microphone, through
> a $2000-$5000 mic pre-amp then through a $3000-$20,000
> compressor. Then most often it is compressed again through
> another high quality compressor at mix down, with yet another
> high quality multiband compressor durring mastering.
>
> layered to every one that you think you hear. That may
> include many different kick drums sounds layered and mixed
> together to create one phat, full thick sound.
>
> I shutter to think of the noise and phase offset you
> would generate using the above eq settings. It isn't
> that you can't do that, but for certain you can't use
> that kind of eq setting on any cheap eq and expect to
> hear the results you are wanting.
>
> Audio Wave Productions
I hope you were being sarcastic....
Layered drum sounds? First time I heard that...I suppose its possible
but man that would be a bitch to edit all those layered sounds.
Especially on double kickdrum parts. It would have to be done digitally
as it sounds like somebody stuck a short delay on the drumkit if you try
to manually layer two drum tracks. I seriously doubt very many people
do that as you can get great drum sounds without any layering. Anybody
here layer drum sounds with any success?
All you need is just maybe some gating (for less mic blead and a tighter
sound) and a little compression on kick and maybe on some of the other
drums. Its not that hard to get a decent kick sound without much eqing
at all. You just got to try out several types of mics and mess around
with positioning and (dampening inside the kick sometimes with a pillow
or foam). I've gotten great hard hitting kick drum sounds with just an
EV 457 dynamic, a $200 Behringer Composer compressor and cheezy 2 band
shelving eq on a Peavey PA mixer (was used because we ran out of mic
channels on my little Mackie 1202VLZ). Compression is a fun effect to
play with on kick drum, however compression or gating is not absolutly
necessary. You can get alot of great kick drum sounds just with a good,
well tuned kickdrum, a decent dynamic mic and a little patience in
moving around the mic to search for that perfect sound. Same goes for
the rest of the kit. Overheads? Lots of decent condenser mics out
there that will do the job well though many require a mixer with phantom
power or a phantom power supply. Oh and one last important thing:
Record in a good sounding room! You can even get really creative and
try recording in a warehouse or a long hallway if you want alot of
natural reverb. But I personally prefer nice carpeted living rooms that
have a nice warm sound without sounding totally dead.
As far as layering goes in heavy metal music, usually thats done mainly
on the guitar tracks (and vocals), and even then the guitarist must be
extremely precise in his(or her) playing if they're going to layer more
then 2 tracks. but thats another subject alltogether for another thread.
Chris G.
Les Cargill
Scott DiNitto wrote:
>
> >
> >im kind of jumping into the middle of a post here, but what eq do you own
> >that can boost any frequency by 20db!?
>
> I have been using a regular "stereo" equalizer HOWEVER I gain the
> additional 10 by running it through the EQ twice
If you have the capabilty to get the track to your computer
and back in synch ( not a 4-track capability, granted ), then
you can use CoolEdit (either pro or 96 ) to perform really
extreme compression and equalization. Sine it's digital
EQ and compression, I beleive it does not have all the "collateral
damage" phase distortion and other unwanted artifacts associated
with analog/discrete compression and equalization.
20 dB is *rather* extreme <vbg> :) But I beleive the guy
who produces White Zombie uses a Mac with some DAW software
package to compress the bejeezus out of their stuff
(according to Musician magazine ).
>
> >I've got sweepable and parametric
> >that will do +-15db and my graphic only does +-12. im not going to say that
> >those settings (however you're getting them) won't do what you want, but i
> >would think that would completely murder any kick drum sound. i try not to
> >cut or boost by more than 6db in most cases. eq and compression can enhance
>
> You see I HAVE gotten the sound I think is okay. But my question is
> "How do the pros do it"... I CAN emulate a decent sound that I like
> through EQ (yes I can) but the process is tedious. I was wondering if
> there was a box out there that contained the eq/compression made
> specificly for the kick drum. I know for a fact EQ is involed with
> pro's because I have a sepultura album with three extra "raw" drum
> tracks. The kick on those tracks does not sound the same as it does in
> the produced version.
The pros have lots and lots of really good compressors and EQ units
lying around. They don't necessarily need a specialized box.
Just a few hundred thousand in outboard gear :)
Eleven Shadows
> Everyone is downing
> equalization... saying it "ALL" starts in the kick drum. True, most of
> it does rely on the kick drum. But I have found that EQ CAN turn a
> boomy sounding bass drum to a nice thwack if used right.
Well, I'm not everyone, but speaking for myself, I am definitely not
putting down the use of EQ. I'm just basically saying that you have to
start with the best possible sound, and get it as close to the ballpark
as possible, and THEN use EQ. To get that sound, you will have to use
EQ. I think that part of it is using good EQ, too, especially if you
are going to boost that much.
And to the person (not Scott) who is doubting the kick drums that are
layered, you'd be surprised...I don't remember specifically who, but
I've read a fair amount of articles in Mix stating that they compress
the piss out of the kick drum, and then trigger drum samples and then
blend them together. The Alesis D4 used to be used a lot for this
(possibly still is).
Bruce McIntyre
I was the guy who posted the prices advice. I didn't mean that
you HAVE to spend that kind of money to get a good sound, but rather,
that is the kind of money that is spent on each piece of equipment
used in all top notch world class studios that record to get those
sounds. The cost of a piece of equipment is not always directly
related to the quality of the components used or method of design.
Note how many companys make the same kind of cheap gear.
Almost anyone can build a pre-amp or a compressor, or even an
eq nowdays. It's not like it's rocket science or some big seceret.
But... Can you build a piece of gear that others will desire, use,
endorse and pay money for? That is where a piece of gear will pass
or fail. On it's own merrit.
Equipment used for recording is usually selected to either capture
the source as accurate as possible and/or to introduce a specific
type of color/flavor. Think of the equipment that you ues in recording
as tools to accomplish a specific goal. The better the tools you have
to choose from and the more skilled you are at using them will lead
you to your desired goal.
- Bruce -
Audio WAve Productions
Chris Gieseke
Eleven Shadows wrote:
>
> > Everyone is downing
> > equalization... saying it "ALL" starts in the kick drum. True, most of
> > it does rely on the kick drum. But I have found that EQ CAN turn a
> > boomy sounding bass drum to a nice thwack if used right.
>
> Well, I'm not everyone, but speaking for myself, I am definitely not
> putting down the use of EQ. I'm just basically saying that you have to
> start with the best possible sound, and get it as close to the ballpark
> as possible, and THEN use EQ. To get that sound, you will have to use
> EQ. I think that part of it is using good EQ, too, especially if you
> are going to boost that much.
>
> And to the person (not Scott) who is doubting the kick drums that are
> layered, you'd be surprised...I don't remember specifically who, but
> I've read a fair amount of articles in Mix stating that they compress
> the piss out of the kick drum, and then trigger drum samples and then
> blend them together. The Alesis D4 used to be used a lot for this
> (possibly still is).
>
> --
> Ken/Eleven Shadows
Oh damn, I forgot triggering drum modules...ooops. Yeah your're right,
you can layer sounds that way.
Sorry,
Chris G.
Quor...@sprintmail.com
CHEESE wrote:
>
> The story I've heard actually talks specifically about how *all* of
> the drum sounds on Nirvana's "Nevermind" LP were triggered samples.
> This is apparently Butch Vig's "magic trick" to always getting very
> solid drum sounds.
>
> And no, I have no idea what samples where triggered or by what method.
>
> -TEX
>
> -
> EEE!!! A BUS!!!!
>
> http://www.bayarea.net/~toyboat/3YD/
> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Amphitheatre/8009/
Well, since Butch Vig always has DDRUMS on his kit-my guess is that He
was using them then.
I'm just getting into adding Sounds triggered from my DM5 with my Kick
drums just to see how much thicker I can get them.
I'm running the Kicks through a DBX 166A Compressor,and then Keying the
Trigger from the key/patch point on the Compressor.
Were doing some songs for a Compilation CD that's coming out, and I
wanted to have a really fat kickdrum sound.
Tim
Eleven Shadows
> The story I've heard actually talks specifically about how *all* of
> the drum sounds on Nirvana's "Nevermind" LP were triggered samples.
> This is apparently Butch Vig's "magic trick" to always getting very
> solid drum sounds.
>
> And no, I have no idea what samples where triggered or by what method.
Whoa, never heard that one before. I'll say this much, though -- if
that's a drum module, I'm running out and getting one! What a
great-sounding bunch of samples of that's what they are!!!! Butch Vig
definitely looped a lot of their stuff. He does that with quite a
number of artists -- Sonic Youth wasn't really too pleased with it.
--
Ken/Eleven Shadows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eleven Shadows * ES songs on Real Audio * Music Reviews
Travels: Ladakh-Kashmir-India-HK * Tibet * Real Audio Radio Shows
http://www.theeleventhhour.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CHEESE
On 29 Apr 1998 20:41:00 -0700, Eleven Shadows
<Eleven...@theeleventhhour.com> belched forth this foul matter
from their bowels:
>> Everyone is downing
>> equalization... saying it "ALL" starts in the kick drum. True, most of
>> it does rely on the kick drum. But I have found that EQ CAN turn a
>> boomy sounding bass drum to a nice thwack if used right.
>
>Well, I'm not everyone, but speaking for myself, I am definitely not
>putting down the use of EQ. I'm just basically saying that you have to
>start with the best possible sound, and get it as close to the ballpark
>as possible, and THEN use EQ. To get that sound, you will have to use
>EQ. I think that part of it is using good EQ, too, especially if you
>are going to boost that much.
>
>And to the person (not Scott) who is doubting the kick drums that are
>layered, you'd be surprised...I don't remember specifically who, but
>I've read a fair amount of articles in Mix stating that they compress
>the piss out of the kick drum, and then trigger drum samples and then
>blend them together. The Alesis D4 used to be used a lot for this
>(possibly still is).
The story I've heard actually talks specifically about how *all* of
the drum sounds on Nirvana's "Nevermind" LP were triggered samples.
This is apparently Butch Vig's "magic trick" to always getting very
solid drum sounds.
And no, I have no idea what samples where triggered or by what method.
-TEX
Stix4blues
<.I don't remember specifically who, but
I've read a fair amount of articles in Mix stating that they compress
the piss out of the kick drum, and then trigger drum samples and then
blend them together. The Alesis D4 used to be used a lot for this
(possibly still is). >
As for this technique...I use the following mix for live sound..I take my Kick
drum
Mike signal (senheiser 421) and insert a compressor. DBX166 compress the drum
at around 3:1 with a light threshold and very fast attack. My live drum uses
Evan EQ dry heads front and back with a small towel taped in contact with the
bottom of the front head. The drum is tuned well and sounds good live as it is.
Then I have a Barkus Berry contact pickup affixed to the drum..this trigger is
sent to an Alesis D4 and I program a nice tight low sounding Kick drum sound
similar to my own drum. This output is then channeled to a DOD stereo 16 bit
mutli efects processor...where the signal is sent first through a Detuning
program and detuned one fifth lower than the primary signal...this is then fed
though a 31 band EQ program in the same unit..and I can tailor the EQ on the
processed signal to get what I want to add to the live drum sound.The 31 band
eq program has a +3 spike about 1 K and at 40, 80, 120, and 160 on the
processed signal and I usually run it flat at the mixer. This is fed to a
separate channel on the board allowing separate levels and eq after the fact. I
EQ the live drum about +6 db on the low end flat on mids...and -6 db on the
highs depending on the room
. then you mix the two signals together to get the Big yet clear and punchy
sound you want in any size room..this drum sounds like a cannon at any volume
or in any room.
I am running this set up through a Bi-amped PA with JBL FOH including subs..
usually with two 18's in tuned cabinets..and it sounds great.
CHEESE
On 30 Apr 1998 22:15:01 -0700, Eleven Shadows
>> The story I've heard actually talks specifically about how *all* of
>> the drum sounds on Nirvana's "Nevermind" LP were triggered samples.
>> This is apparently Butch Vig's "magic trick" to always getting very
>> solid drum sounds.
>>
>> And no, I have no idea what samples where triggered or by what method.
>
>Whoa, never heard that one before. I'll say this much, though -- if
>that's a drum module, I'm running out and getting one! What a
>great-sounding bunch of samples of that's what they are!!!! Butch Vig
>definitely looped a lot of their stuff. He does that with quite a
>number of artists -- Sonic Youth wasn't really too pleased with it.
I once saw a snippet of an interview on MTV where members of Sonice
Youth, L7 and the Smashing Pumpkins were all being interviewed
together and the interviewer asked them "what do all of you have the
most in common?" They all said "we hate Butch Vig."
Eleven Shadows
CHEESE wrote:
>
> On 30 Apr 1998 22:15:01 -0700, Eleven Shadows
> <Eleven...@theeleventhhour.com> belched forth this foul matter
> from their bowels:
<ulp!> -- Excuse me!
Seomeone else said:
> >> The story I've heard actually talks specifically about how *all* of
> >> the drum sounds on Nirvana's "Nevermind" LP were triggered samples.
> >> This is apparently Butch Vig's "magic trick" to always getting very
> >> solid drum sounds.
New Mix Magazine question asked Andy Wallace if there was any replacing
of drums on Nirvana's "Nervermind". He said no. As many of you
undoubtedly know, Andy Wallace was the engineer for Nevermind. He goes
on to say that he uses gates or expanders fairly hard if he has to, and
is not shy with EQ (uses a lot of SSS E Series EQ), cutting as well as
adding.
--
Ken/Eleven Shadows
DIVISION BY ZERO
What I've heard is that virtually all of the more aggressive bass drum
playing out there is actually triggered samples. I know Pantera does
it, and Scott Burns (THE producer for death metal bands) publicly
admits to this technique, because, basically, it is IMPOSSIBLE for any
human being to maintain precise level and attack when attempting to
break the four minute mile on a pair of 24 inchers. Butch Vig, at
least for Garbage, samples everything. THey play the material, then
they sample it all and do cuts and pastes with loops of themselves
playing. I'm pretty sure the only other band he's made happy with
this approach was Smashing Pumpkins (remember when they had all those
layered feedback excursions at the tails of their songs--now they just
suck, but I digress....)
But I still go through the two mic technique of one way inside the
drum near the beater and one just inside the soundhole. Then maybe a
noisegate and PLENTY of EQ.
Though the doubling with a DM sounds easier. Wish I had one that took
triggers.....
DIVISION BY ZERO
Paul Winkler
>The story I've heard actually talks specifically about how *all* of
>the drum sounds on Nirvana's "Nevermind" LP were triggered samples.
>This is apparently Butch Vig's "magic trick" to always getting very
>solid drum sounds.
>
>And no, I have no idea what samples where triggered or by what method.
>
>-TEX
>
Hrm, where'd you hear that? I read a Vig profile in EQ or Mix or one
of those, where they were going over his drum miking setup for Sonic
Youth's "Experimental Jet Set, Trash and No Star". Now, I have no
trouble believing Vig uses samples sometimes, or even frequently,
since he likes them for his own music, but for that particular album,
he made it pretty clear that they were using straight acoustic drums.
Nothing too unusual with the mics-- lots of Sennheiser 421 as I recall
for the close-miked toms, top & bottom snare mics (forget what kind),
overheads, some fancy condenser room mic. I personally didn't have
any trouble believing the "Nevermind" sound as well as Sonic Youth's
drum sounds on "Experimental..." were all acoustic. I never did see
Nirvana, but I've seen SY and Steve Shelley just PLAYS like that. And
for Nirvana's drum sound, I personally suspect it would take quite a
lot of engineering to make Dave Grohl sound bad.
But, I'm just guessing...
PW
==============================================================
Paul Winkler --- music & sound --- zarmzarm at hotmail dot com
a member of
ARMS --- an ongoing pop music experiment --- our first album,
URBAN SUNDIAL is now available.....on CD, vinyl, and cassette
from Label 12 13.........contact: sonic113 at juno dot com
Also -- improvised & electronic music releases are coming real
soon, dirt cheap from plan B cassette works and label 12 13...
==============================================================
CRANK945
I've actually doubled a simple bass drum part to get a fatter sound (hey, it
worked with the guitars). However, after many hours of work, it was all
totally worthless because there was so much phase cancelation that the sound
was similar to playing a card board box. I finally got the super fat sound I
wanted by doubling the kick with the kick sound from a Roland TR-808 drum
machine. Then in the mix the 808 sound was panned the same as the kick and
mixed slightly lower than the kick from the drum kit. The 808 technique took
about a fifth of the time that the actual doubling took and sounded much better
because the 808 sound occupied a lower frequency range allowing for each sound
in the mix.
*********************
I would stand up, but you would try to kill me and I don't think the windows
can handle that.
Exterminate all rational thought.
email to cran...@aol.com
*********************
Splonedog
In article <354A62...@tc.umn.edu>, DIVISION BY ZERO
<uran000...@tc.umn.edu> writes:
>But I still go through the two mic technique of one way inside the
>drum near the beater and one just inside the soundhole. Then maybe a
>noisegate and PLENTY of EQ.
I've been able to get some pretty fat kick drum sounds with a d112 and some
dramatic cuts in the low mids. but the most hard hitting kick sound I've ever
done involved a d112, a compressor, a -15db cut at the board in the low mids,
AND an outboard ashley EQ with bandwidth control. none of that sampling,
cutting and pasting, or triggered crap for me. I'll go the heavy eq route.
Splonedog Studios
http://w3.nai.net/~splone