syncing SR16
Miles Durrie
with the Alesis SR16 drum machine? I want to be able to record an audible
click track to which the SR16 will sync. I've pored over the manual and this
isn't mentioned specifically; all use of MIDI functions seems to depend on
the other device being MIDI as well. But how about using tape as an
intermediary, essentially MIDI-ing the SR16 to itself???
Thanks!
Miles
Rev. J. Toad
wrote:
You need a device which is capable of striping time code to tape and
syncing to it, which the SR16 is not. I've used a MOTU device called
the MicroExpress at school, which is also an excellent USB midi
interface with several out and two in ports. Note also that time code
and click tracks are mutually exclusive - if you want both, you'll
have to dedicate a track to each.
You could also just make the switch to a computer recording setup -
it's pretty cheap to get into the digital game these days, and with an
app that can handle midi and audio together you'd have better
integration, and no need for time code in the first place - unless you
plan to do scoring for video via midi, that's your better bet.
As it stands, you'll have to just record your drum track and play to
that.
-------------------
Shut Up And Evolve.
-------------------
Miles Durrie
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:50:31 GMT, Miles Durrie <mdu...@telus.net>
> wrote:
>
>> So, does anyone know if it's possible to record a time-sync track onto tape
>> with the Alesis SR16 drum machine? [etc......]
>
> As it stands, you'll have to just record your drum track and play to
> that.
>
Yeah, that's what I do now, and I hate it. It's like I have to do SO MUCH
pre-planning it takes some of the fun out of making music. I try to hear in
my head what's going to happen in the song so I can invent a drum track.
Then I end up with bits and pieces on tape that I really like (a bass track,
a guitar solo, maybe even a vocal, etc.) along with a drum track that is
crying out for a rewrite. I'm trying to figure out ways to make the process
more fluid without spending a cent (a Canadian cent, at that... talk about
cheap!)
Thanks,
Miles
Ben Bradley
>> From: Rev. J. Toad <jpask...@Mhotmail.com>
>
>> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:50:31 GMT, Miles Durrie <mdu...@telus.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So, does anyone know if it's possible to record a time-sync track onto tape
>>> with the Alesis SR16 drum machine? [etc......]
>>
>> As it stands, you'll have to just record your drum track and play to
>> that.
I've done this many years ago (write sync to tape, then have the
drum machine play back to the sync track) with a Roland TR-707, IIRC
the 1/8" cassette load/dump jacks were used for this. It worked great.
I wonder why the SR16 doesn't have this feature. If you could get a
707, you could probably use it to stripe tape, then have it send MIDI
sync out to the HR16, using the Roland only as a sync box.
Unfortunately the 707 appears to be in demand as a 'classic' machine,
and so prices are rather high.
I have an Alesis "HR-16:B", I've never been quite sure what the
difference is between this and the SR-16, but this one does have "TAPE
IN/OUT" cassette dump/load jacks. Its got lots of sounds but I never
liked them - for one thing, many or or all of samples have reverb.
>Yeah, that's what I do now, and I hate it. It's like I have to do SO MUCH
>pre-planning it takes some of the fun out of making music. I try to hear in
>my head what's going to happen in the song so I can invent a drum track.
>Then I end up with bits and pieces on tape that I really like (a bass track,
>a guitar solo, maybe even a vocal, etc.) along with a drum track that is
>crying out for a rewrite. I'm trying to figure out ways to make the process
>more fluid without spending a cent (a Canadian cent, at that... talk about
>cheap!)
>Thanks,
>Miles
Rev. J. Toad
(Ben Bradley) wrote:
> I've done this many years ago (write sync to tape, then have the
>drum machine play back to the sync track) with a Roland TR-707, IIRC
>the 1/8" cassette load/dump jacks were used for this. It worked great.
>I wonder why the SR16 doesn't have this feature. If you could get a
>707, you could probably use it to stripe tape, then have it send MIDI
>sync out to the HR16, using the Roland only as a sync box.
>Unfortunately the 707 appears to be in demand as a 'classic' machine,
>and so prices are rather high.
> I have an Alesis "HR-16:B", I've never been quite sure what the
>difference is between this and the SR-16, but this one does have "TAPE
>IN/OUT" cassette dump/load jacks. Its got lots of sounds but I never
>liked them - for one thing, many or or all of samples have reverb.
Well you know, I'm certainly not discounting the idea that I could be
wrong about the SR-16. My friend has one which I borrowed for awhile,
and I don't recall seeing that feature, but maybe it does, who knows -
only the manual will tell :>
Bill
"Ben Bradley" <ben_nospa...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3d5d1bd6...@basic.bs.webusenet.com...
>
> I've done this many years ago (write sync to tape, then have the
> drum machine play back to the sync track) with a Roland TR-707, IIRC
> the 1/8" cassette load/dump jacks were used for this. It worked great.
> I wonder why the SR16 doesn't have this feature. If you could get a
> 707, you could probably use it to stripe tape, then have it send MIDI
> sync out to the HR16, using the Roland only as a sync box.
> Unfortunately the 707 appears to be in demand as a 'classic' machine,
> and so prices are rather high.
I used a 707 for years, and have a hard time thinking of it as "classic".
Oh well. In any case, one of the problems with using a machine of that
vintage is that many of them use "dumb" tape sync, meaning that they'll only
sync up if you start from the beginning of the song every time. I think the
707 worked that way, though I'm not completely sure. Using a device that
offers MIDI Time Code is a huge step forward, allowing you to start from any
point on the tape and achieve sync within a second or two.
> I have an Alesis "HR-16:B", I've never been quite sure what the
> difference is between this and the SR-16, but this one does have "TAPE
> IN/OUT" cassette dump/load jacks. Its got lots of sounds but I never
> liked them - for one thing, many or or all of samples have reverb.
That was the point of the HR-16B -- it was basically an HR-16 with "hipper"
sounds. The SR-16 was, if I recall correctly, the next generation of Alesis
drum machines. I never used one, though, so I don't know how it differed
from the HRs.
sjjohnston
What you need is a MIDI sync box. Midiman makes one called the
Syncman. There are a number of others. J.L. Cooper is another brand
that springs to mind. These boxes can (i) output an audio-frequency
signal that gets recorded to a tape track and (ii) receive an
audio-frequency signal (from a tape track) and use it to generate MIDI
timing information for your SR16.
There are a variety of implementations to do this, some of which I'm
not familar with. In my setup, the audio-frequency signal is SMPTE,
which a Midiman Syncman Plus uses to control a sequencer and a drum
machine through a MIDI connection (I also use the same SMPTE signal,
with a different box, to sync a second tape deck). If you start
playing tape (at the start, or at any point in the middle of a piece),
the sync box figures out what beat and measure you're at and tells
that to the drum machine or sequencer in MIDI messages. It works well.
There are other implementations that use a different format for
creating the audio-frequency signal, which might be slightly simpler
to use in practice. What the SMPTE code recorded to the tape "says"
(if you could understand it) is a sequence of times -- hh:mm:ss:ff.ff
(hours, minutes, seconds, frames -- "frames" comes from film and TV
... there are 24, 25, 29.97 or 30 per second, depending on how you set
it up). If you use SMPTE, your sync box needs to know what time the
song starts and its tempo throughout, in order to translate this into
measure and beat information. So you've got to write *this* on your
tape as well. Not enormously difficult, but if you've got a box that
writes code in measures and beats ("MTC," I think) you can skip that
little complication.
Incidentally, the older Alesis HR16 can do sync (in a limited way) on
its own. That is: it outputs an audio-frequency signal, and receives
it and generates timing information all by itself. Unfortunately, the
format it uses is FSK, which just provides tempo, and no position
information. It works fine if you start at the beginning of the song.
But if you start in the middle, the machine doesn't know where it is
and starts at the beginning.
None of these is an "audible click track." They all sound like a loud
irritating buzz if you for some reason play them back over speakers or
earphones (which you should avoid doing, for that reason). They're
basically a square wave that's modulated to encode the information.
Two other small twists: (i) you don't want to use noise reduction on
the track you record code onto -- a little noise doesn't create any
problem for the machine reading the code, but messing with the
waveform might and (ii) you want to be careful about recording
something loud and percussive on the adjacent track.
Jeffrey Cohen
manner that you described (write the drum part on the SR-16, dump it to tape or
computer, then use that as my "click track", or use it as my base track for
overdubbing, or whatever you want to call it).
Personally, I think the approach is valid, especially for us closet musician
wanna-bees. Why? Because it forces us to think in terms of a whole and
complete song. You basically do the arrangement during the drum composing, then
fill in the blanks as you add tracks. It is disciplined and probably a good
methodolgy for those working on their own. Once you get used to it, its
actually pretty quick, too.
That said, if you were looking to go 100% computer, Steinberg Cubase or Cubasis
and Steinberg's LM-4 VST drum module would do exactly what you are describing
AND you get a very drum-machine like interface for your drum composing. The
LM-4 module will also work with any recording software that is VST ready, so you
may be able to stick with what you are currently using.
In Canada, you'll spend about $200.00 for the LM-4 module.
Jeff Cohen
Ben Bradley
>
>"Ben Bradley" <ben_nospa...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:3d5d1bd6...@basic.bs.webusenet.com...
>I used a 707 for years, and have a hard time thinking of it as "classic".
>Oh well. In any case, one of the problems with using a machine of that
>vintage is that many of them use "dumb" tape sync, meaning that they'll only
>sync up if you start from the beginning of the song every time. I think the
>707 worked that way, though I'm not completely sure.
Yes, you're right, that's the way it worked. An interesting
'feature' of it is it didn't use a microprocessor. I opened mine up
way back when, looking for the processor, but it's (almost) all
4000-series CMOS logic gates. Interesting how they got as much
functionality as they did (with MIDI I/O, even) with a hardware-only
design.
>Using a device that
>offers MIDI Time Code is a huge step forward, allowing you to start from any
>point on the tape and achieve sync within a second or two.
>
>> I have an Alesis "HR-16:B", I've never been quite sure what the
>> difference is between this and the SR-16, but this one does have "TAPE
>> IN/OUT" cassette dump/load jacks. Its got lots of sounds but I never
>> liked them - for one thing, many or or all of samples have reverb.
>
>That was the point of the HR-16B -- it was basically an HR-16 with "hipper"
>sounds.
So that's why it sounds like those '80's hit songs...
>The SR-16 was, if I recall correctly, the next generation of Alesis
>drum machines. I never used one, though, so I don't know how it differed
>from the HRs.
Les Cargill
>
> In alt.music.4-track, "Bill" <bwil...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ben Bradley" <ben_nospa...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> >news:3d5d1bd6...@basic.bs.webusenet.com...
>
> >I used a 707 for years, and have a hard time thinking of it as "classic".
> >Oh well. In any case, one of the problems with using a machine of that
> >vintage is that many of them use "dumb" tape sync, meaning that they'll only
> >sync up if you start from the beginning of the song every time. I think the
> >707 worked that way, though I'm not completely sure.
>
> Yes, you're right, that's the way it worked. An interesting
> 'feature' of it is it didn't use a microprocessor. I opened mine up
> way back when, looking for the processor, but it's (almost) all
> 4000-series CMOS logic gates. Interesting how they got as much
> functionality as they did (with MIDI I/O, even) with a hardware-only
> design.
>
Bob Pease could probably do it all with op amps :)
> >Using a device that
> >offers MIDI Time Code is a huge step forward, allowing you to start from any
> >point on the tape and achieve sync within a second or two.
> >
> >> I have an Alesis "HR-16:B", I've never been quite sure what the
> >> difference is between this and the SR-16, but this one does have "TAPE
> >> IN/OUT" cassette dump/load jacks. Its got lots of sounds but I never
> >> liked them - for one thing, many or or all of samples have reverb.
> >
> >That was the point of the HR-16B -- it was basically an HR-16 with "hipper"
> >sounds.
>
> So that's why it sounds like those '80's hit songs...
>
> >The SR-16 was, if I recall correctly, the next generation of Alesis
> >drum machines. I never used one, though, so I don't know how it differed
> >from the HRs.
>
> -----
> http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
--
Les Cargill
Miles Durrie
route and just get to work, it's actually kind of fun. The important thing,
I think, is not to start committing things to tape until you've really got
the song nailed. So I now have a setup where I sit with the SR16 (plugged
into my bass amp) on a stand in front of me, my guitar (amped to approximate
the sound I think this song is going to need) in my hands, start-stop pedal
for the drums under my right foot, pen and paper close by. I just program
patterns, put 'em together, play along, adjust, delete, etc. until it sounds
right. Not to get too "out there," but maybe this is a lesson in thinking
with two sides of the brain simultaneously -- the left side focusing
patiently on the minutiae of each track while the right side zooms ahead and
works away at creating the finished song. The whole being greater than the
sum of its parts, and all that.
Miles
Tony
overdubs (not perfectly) as a working idea. Then, when it is all done, play it for a few days and
get an idea of what you wnt to go where and then re-do the drum track that way and start over. It
isnt that mych more work. Just record a basic idea of the song first.
Tony
gawkers...@hotmail.com
Though it's pretty time- and energy-intensive, I do drum re-writes on my
SR-16 to 4-track (the DAW users--who make up about 95% of this group these
days--are going to shit bricks over this post, I'm realizing) like such: 1)
Record scratch guitar line or whatever over basic boom-crack drum beat in
song tempo 2) Record bass, a better guitar line, perhaps a hand perc track
and another guitar line to fill up four tracks, bounce to stereo 3) On open
two tracks, record "dressed up" drum line (composed on SR16 to more
appropriately fit song). Yes, once these lines are written and put
together you have to synch them manually to the song, but if you remember
to give one of your tracks a 1-2-3-4 count-off in time with the original
scratch drums (remember back that far?), it's usually not much of a
problem. 4) Mix the drums to the stereo guitar-guitar-bass-whatever and
bounce, and you have something that resembles full bandage.
Though I never intended to fool anyone into thinking I had a real drummer,
nearly everyone asks me who's doing the drumming on my tunes when they
first hear them. Oh, and I've had some unintended cool things happen like
the scratch drum was just right for the tune, which saved a lot of time. I
don't know...you can check out some of the results at the mp3.com site in
my sig line (of the songs posted there, the above process is used on the
songs 'Another One,' 'Our Love, RIP,' 'Thumb,' and 'Mother's Day').
Not quite as easy as some of the things I could do with a computer, but, as
I'm not ready to make that leap, it works just fine for me.
-gs
--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
hear gawker slowdown at...
http://www.mp3.com/gawker_slowdown