Disk Errors On The MD-8
Scott R. Archambault
(#02) on my Yamaha MD-8 in the last two days. Does anyone what could be
causing it? I am using HHB media and have had no trouble with the discs
previously.
Thanks.
Mike
Hi.
Disregarding a previous problem with a defective MD8 unit that disk-errored
when it got warm, this sounds familiar. Also HHB disks. Are you telling
me they are a crap brand, or a bad batch escaped? As these seem to be
the only ones I've found people selling in the UK (shops, mail order). Apart
from the name stencilled on them, they are very like some SONYs that came
with the unit, even down to the format of the batch number etc. Hmmm.
Rebadged SONY Quality Control rejects? Any ideas? (Think no-name CDR
discs ... some are production overrun, others are marginal. I've seen
CDRs with *bubbles* in the plastic so that a little black hole is visible
through the silver layer. Yuk!)
Symptoms:
Everything going fine, until during a record, you get an Error. Never just
on a playback. The disk stops, Disk Error 02/03/04 appears. Often the
play/rec lights get stuck on.
Trying to playback the resulting disk has twice left a dropout across
all 8 tracks (total silence) even though only one was being recorded on.
(Disk Error 02, I believe)
Twice, it left a patch of the disk unrecordable, and unplayable ever again.
(Disc Error 03?). This is bad, not just for the obvious reason, but because
that bit of disc had been recorded on and played back a number of times
perfectly ok. Now, I can't do a thing with it. If I do an "erase disc/song"
I just know that all that will happen is the TOC get changed, and no actual
"reformatting" will be done, or marking of the sector as bad, if that is
appropriate in the Minidisc system.
These all happened on different disks, and most are HHB.
The "hole in my recording" is annoying, one reason to move to MD from
cassette was to lose the damn dropouts you get from time to time. These
can be fixed at the mixing/mastering stage in my case, as it's all
cleaned up and reprocessed on a PC.
But having a bit of disk that can't be played over (it stalls even playback!)
is crazy. In the event, it would have meant the total loss of 3 part harmony
vocals, 2 recorder lines, a guitar part, a lead vocal, bass guitar,
autoharp ... a gut wrenching experience. But due to the way we'd recorded
and copied things, it was possible to pull off and repair the damaged tracks,
and stitch it back together (around a 1 second hole!!). Only one word
of the lead vocal was lost, and that was "fixed" by re-recording a section.
The only way to play the track was to start from the beginning, wait for
it to stick, press STOP, manually wind along on to a particular min:sec:frame
that would read, and hit PLAY again!
Don't know the solution, there is no way to digitally back up (clone) a
Minidisc using the MD8, or any external device I know of. It's all very well
returning the disc for exchange, but then we lose the masters on it.
But yes, I feel your annoyance :(
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Brown Personal: mjb @ pootle. .co.
http://www.pootle.demon.co.uk/ Work: c4effect @ demon uk
Al Evans
{$mjb/news-reply$}_@pootle.demon.co.uk (Mike) wrote:
[Stuff about record errors on Yamaha MD-8]
Just to add a data point, I sent my Tascam 564 in for repairs a few days
ago, because I was having exactly the same kinds of problems. I concluded
it probably didn't have to do with the disks (I was using HHBs, too),
because a) the first time I saw it was on a Sony disk that I'd used for
testing for quite a while, and b) it happened very consistently on three
separate disks. It also glitched an already-recorded track on one disk --
sounded just like a twist in the tape.
I got the impression it was more likely to happen after a couple of hours
of use.
--Al Evans--
--
Al Evans and PowerTools -- a...@powertools.com
Specializing in design and development of high-performance cross-platform
multimedia frameworks and applications for MacOS and Windows 32
Chris Gieseke
Well actually, using the individual track outputs, you could backup your
recording onto an ADAT recorder. You would of coarse be using the
analog ins and outs of both machines, but it should still sound
acceptable. I transfer masters from my Sony PCM-501ES/VCR combo onto my
computer through a Gadget Labs Wave/4 using the analog ins and outs of
both machines and the results are very acceptable even though the
PCM-501ES is an early 16bit digital recording system. One of my songs
on the alt.music.4-track compilation ("A Touch of Death") was transfered
from a PCM-501ES master tape in this matter and I think the sound
quality was not affected much at all.
This type of backup, I think, should work quite well with a MD-8 hooked
up into a newer model ADAT or Tascam tape based multitrack recorder.
Most audio/video equipment rental places rent these at affordable rates.
Chris G.
Simply Steve
amount, but have had no errors of any kind. I'm (so far) using Sony discs. Is
this a common problem? Something I need to worry about for the future? Or do
y'all think it's just due to crappy disks?
SS
Mike
Chris Gieseke <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
>> Don't know the solution, there is no way to digitally back up (clone) a
>> Minidisc using the MD8, or any external device I know of. It's all very well
>> returning the disc for exchange, but then we lose the masters on it.
>Well actually, using the individual track outputs, you could backup your
>recording onto an ADAT recorder.
1) That's not digital backup (clone) :)
2) Are you offering to pay for the ADAT?
>computer through a Gadget Labs Wave/4 using the analog ins and outs of
>both machines and the results are very acceptable even though the
I do this, for the purposes of mixing/effects etc anyway, so a backup
comes for free. But the point is that you'd need to keep backing up to
ADAT after every track was recorded to ensure zero loss, because the
glitch can happen at any time in a session, and lose all work in that
particular song.
I try to do MD8->PC as soon as possible now, because I don't trust the
MD8/disks to hold onto the data!! That way if it all goes pants I can make
up a rough mix of what's done so far from the computer version and dump it
back to a new disc. This *really* shouldn't be necessary if there was the
reliability in the MD8/disks you'd expect for a grand's worth!
>Most audio/video equipment rental places rent these at affordable rates.
As I said, we'd need one on very regular rent. It'd be cheaper to buy
after a short space of time!
Mike
Al Evans <a...@powertools.com> wrote:
>it probably didn't have to do with the disks (I was using HHBs, too),
>because a) the first time I saw it was on a Sony disk that I'd used for
>testing
Er, me too. SONY's came with it, they didn't get *much* use before
glitching!
>It also glitched an already-recorded track on one disk --
>sounded just like a twist in the tape.
When you say 'track', do you mean in a "1 of the 8" or "song" context?
Were you recording or playing at the time the glitch occurred?
>I got the impression it was more likely to happen after a couple of hours
>of use.
Couple of hours solid use is very likely with us :)
Al Evans
{$mjb/news-reply$}_@pootle.demon.co.uk (Mike) wrote:
> In article <al-ya02408000R3...@news.jump.net>,
> Al Evans <a...@powertools.com> wrote:
> >It also glitched an already-recorded track on one disk --
> >sounded just like a twist in the tape.
>
> When you say 'track', do you mean in a "1 of the 8" or "song" context?
> Were you recording or playing at the time the glitch occurred?
Two tracks of a song were already recorded; I was adding a third. The two
that were already there played back fine before, and had a glitch after.
Note that my deck is a Tascam 564 4-track. I wonder if they use the same
drive mechansim or something.
Mine has never *shown* an error while recording the first tracks in a song.
Only when I go back and try to add a track. Sometimes it never starts (rec
light on, play light blinking, as though it's searching). Sometimes it
records part way through the song, then stops with REC ERR (Tascam 564
doesn't have any further indication of what the error might be).
Chris Gieseke
Ok...so are we talking MD disks in general that are the problem? It
seems so because obviously there seems to be the same sort of problem on
both the Tascam 564 and the Yamaha MD-8. I wonder how widespread this
problem is...ok I know there are lots of other MD users on here. Anyone
else experiencing these types of problems? If so have you been in
contact with the manufacturer's techical support?
To Al and Mike, I think you all should have your MD recorders looked at
to see if the problem is in the machine.
I've always been told that MD recorders were very reliable but if this
problem is wide spread that is a bit disturbing.
Chris G.
Chris Gieseke
I made those recommendations because I had no idea that it was common
for MD-8 to have frequent errors and glitches while recording. If yours
is having that many errors on different brands of MD data disks why
don't you return the recorder or have it repaired?
It definatly should not be doing that on a frequent basis.
Again I made the recommendation of renting an ADAT thinking along the
lines of renting it maybe once every 1-3 months just to do routine
backups of mixes.
I agree with you whole completely that you should expect much better
reliablity after blowing a grand on that recorder.
My advise is to call Yamaha Tech.support and your music store and raise
hell if it definatly is not the brand of MD data disks that is the
problem.
Chris G.
Simply Steve
similar problems - seems to be the discs themselves in most cases.
SS
Brent Santin
quickly corrected. I had one of these machines, and Yamaha exchanged it
for a later one as soon as I told them of the problem. It seems that
after a few hours use, heat causes the laser to misread just enough that
errors start to occur. In my case it was exactly as you described. I
think part of the problem was that SONY gave Yamaha Minidisc specs that
were too stringent, resulting in the fact that the tiniest deviation on
the Minidisc registered as "DISC ERROR". My replacement MD8 has given me
no problems even after many hours of use.
Mike ({$mjb/news-reply$}_@pootle.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <al-ya02408000R3...@news.jump.net>,
: Al Evans <a...@powertools.com> wrote:
: >it probably didn't have to do with the disks (I was using HHBs, too),
: >because a) the first time I saw it was on a Sony disk that I'd used for
: >testing
: Er, me too. SONY's came with it, they didn't get *much* use before
: glitching!
: >It also glitched an already-recorded track on one disk --
: >sounded just like a twist in the tape.
: When you say 'track', do you mean in a "1 of the 8" or "song" context?
: Were you recording or playing at the time the glitch occurred?
: >I got the impression it was more likely to happen after a couple of hours
: >of use.
: Couple of hours solid use is very likely with us :)
: --
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Michael Brown Personal: mjb @ pootle. .co.
: http://www.pootle.demon.co.uk/ Work: c4effect @ demon uk
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\ Brent Santin - Ontario Canada //\\//\\//\\//\\//\\|
* student of wind instrument making * bear-o'-matic * wooden flute player *
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Al Evans
{$mjb/news-reply$}_@pootle.demon.co.uk (Mike) wrote:
> In article <370794...@txdirect.net>,
> Chris Gieseke <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
>
> >To Al and Mike, I think you all should have your MD recorders looked at
> >to see if the problem is in the machine.
>
> Well, the problem originally was, no doubt. This problem, I don't know.
> Of course, the machine basically works, and returning it to Yamaha
> under the fast expiring warranty would result in the typical "It
> worked when *we* used it" response that most erratic faults get from
> manufacturers/repairers. The other answer is "Use a different disk".
My Tascam 564 is off being repaired now. Since it's NOT under warranty,
maybe they'll be more forthcoming about what's actually wrong with it. If
so, I'll post the results here.
As to using a different disk, my answer would be, "how many different disks
should I use before deciding it's not a disk problem?" Or if I was feeling
particularly tack, "exactly which buttons do I push to find out if a disk
is good BEFORE I start recording on it?"
Mike
Brent Santin <bn...@torfree.net> wrote:
>Hi...there was a disk error problem with the first run of MD8's which was
>quickly corrected. I had one of these machines, and Yamaha exchanged it
>for a later one as soon as I told them of the problem.
Here too ... (the exchange, that is). It was billed as a "repair" but
it was a new unit.
However, we've identified another disk cockup condition to go along side
the "it stopped recording and left a little hole on playback", and "it
stopped recording and now can't play across that bit".
Three times (on 2 disks) the machine has been in STOP mode, we've hit
play, it's gone to PLAY-PAUSE (pause lit in display, play light blinking)
and sat there. Disc turning, little "burrr" noise. So hitting STOP, PAUSE,
PLAY, or anything will not do a thing, it just locks up. Steve lost
patience when it happened to him, and cut the power. That fixed it :)
I waited, it seemed to take about 2 minutes before it finally stopped
and gave up, and it was about 13 seconds further down the track than when
I wanted it to start, although no sound came out at all. Another time,
it just came back without having moved, after 2 minutes of silence. On
pressing PLAY, all was fine again. Bad disc? If so, it tried to read the
"bad disc" for 2 minutes, locking out all transport controls! It also played
back and recorded the "bad" area fine thereafter ...
>think part of the problem was that SONY gave Yamaha Minidisc specs that
>were too stringent
Hmmm. Wouldn't be in SONY's interest to make sure Yamaha cocked up the
implementation, now would it ;)
>My replacement MD8 has given me
>no problems even after many hours of use.
You are fortunate!
Al Evans
a...@powertools.com (Al Evans) wrote:
> My Tascam 564 is off being repaired now. Since it's NOT under warranty,
> maybe they'll be more forthcoming about what's actually wrong with it. If
> so, I'll post the results here.
I got it back today. All they did was update the software (no charge) and,
presumably, clean it.
I tested it every way I could. Starting with one of the "bad" disks from
before, I checked to see that the disk was still "bad" it was. The only
difference was that it would continue trying to play when it hit a bad
spot. Still couldn't add a track to an existing ("bad") song.
So I erased the disk, and tried recording new stuff (to test whether it had
been the machine or the disk). Everything worked.
My guess is that whatever cleaning they did was the fix. I'm sure the new
software is very nice, but it had been working fine with the old software
until recently.
Chris Gieseke
>
> In article <F9os...@pootle.demon.co.uk>,
> {$mjb/news-reply$}_@pootle.demon.co.uk (Mike) wrote:
>
> > In article <370794...@txdirect.net>,
> > Chris Gieseke <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
> >
> > >To Al and Mike, I think you all should have your MD recorders looked at
> > >to see if the problem is in the machine.
> >
> > Well, the problem originally was, no doubt. This problem, I don't know.
> > Of course, the machine basically works, and returning it to Yamaha
> > under the fast expiring warranty would result in the typical "It
> > worked when *we* used it" response that most erratic faults get from
> > manufacturers/repairers. The other answer is "Use a different disk".
>
> maybe they'll be more forthcoming about what's actually wrong with it. If
> so, I'll post the results here.
>
> should I use before deciding it's not a disk problem?" Or if I was feeling
> particularly tack, "exactly which buttons do I push to find out if a disk
> is good BEFORE I start recording on it?"
> --Al Evans--
>
Very good points. Following that thought...if the disk comes up with an
error, shouldn't you then demand a refund from the disk manufacturers?
Those disks aren't exactly cheap like cassette tapes. Even cassette
tape manufacturers will refund you your money if you accidentally get
bad batch.
When it comes down to it, someone is at fault. They need to make a MD
disk error checker device or something if the problem is with the disks.
Too much valuable data can be lost plus the damn disks are too expensive
just to toss out in the garbage when you get an error on them.
Chris G.
Steve
>See other post, but it's not that frequent. Any time more than once
>is too much though. It's done it on about 5 or 6 places across 5 disks
>(2 sony, 2 HHB) ... The reason I said back up after every track recorded
>is because you don't know if or when it will do it, and it might
>cost you the whole song.
Does this happen during the recording or can a recording
be fine and then it happens sometime later? I guess what i'm
asking is, are the defects atspecific points in the disc from the start or can
dropouts occur at any time including playback?
>How many brands are there, apart from Sony and HHB ? Anyone volunteer
>a name that they are using?
TDK makes datadiscs, one i bought had a defective
metal slide thingy and i won't give them another chance...
The sony 2-track discs i use seem especially prone to dropouts,
but they're the cheap ones.
steve
Mike
Chris Gieseke <chri...@txdirect.net> wrote:
>Very good points. Following that thought...if the disk comes up with an
>error, shouldn't you then demand a refund from the disk manufacturers?
No, not from the manufacturer, from the retailer. (English law, I suppose
US Law the same?). But, let's face it, they are going to want the "dud"
one back. So we lose the other tracks on there as well. One step backward,
and add two more!
>Those disks aren't exactly cheap like cassette tapes. Even cassette
>tape manufacturers will refund you your money if you accidentally get
>bad batch.
Snag is that the data is, (ADAT borrowing notwithstanding) trapped on
the disc, and can't be parked elsewhere. If I bought a bad cassette
batch, I'd bounce it off the retailer, because I'd have nothing to lose.
a...@powertools.com (Al Evans) wrote:
>I got it back today. All they did was update the software (no charge) and,
>presumably, clean it.
>I tested it every way I could. Starting with one of the "bad" disks from
>before, I checked to see that the disk was still "bad" it was. The only
>difference was that it would continue trying to play when it hit a bad
>spot. Still couldn't add a track to an existing ("bad") song.
OK. That makes some sense. Your previous software incarnation probably
destroyed a small area of the data which is used for sector identification
(Sector not found, Ignore, Retry, Cry?). So playback would probably
work (maybe that was one of the fixes, play over cack sectors, instead
of sitting waiting). Recording would be interesting when it can't find the
sector to write back *into*.
>So I erased the disk, and tried recording new stuff (to test whether it had
>been the machine or the disk). Everything worked.
Interesting. How long did it take to "erase" the disk. Bearing in mind
that if it was a low level integrity problem, you would need to "format"
it rather than just mark the TOC as all empty. I guess that would take
over 30 seconds, because there's a lot of disc to write. TOC clearing
would be < 10 seconds. Which do you think it did?
The problem is, if formatting *is* the answer, you can't format a particular
track to recover the space, only the whole disk.
Mike
> (Mike) wrote:
> Does this happen during the recording
"This" covers a variety of sins (previously mentioned). Problems during
recording cause a permanent playback problem (either a silence or
an unplayable-past-this-point-without-manual-winding). The only problem
noted during recording was "Why did it stop? *&!^ it's done it again".
Problems during playback include stopping and getting stuck, (whole transport
lock up), or little repeated loops of sound (that's a new one!)
>be fine and then it happens sometime later?
A recording has never done this, bit's don't permanently flake off. On a
day to day basis, sometimes it won't play something that it did previously.
>asking is, are the defects atspecific points in the disc from the start or can
>dropouts occur at any time including playback?
Yes. The latter. You can record (say) 4 tracks and hear them back. While
adding track 5, it halts. On playback, all of tracks 1-4 have a silence
at the point of the drop out, and in the worst case, it won't
even play past that point. That section of disc becomes a blackhole.
> TDK makes datadiscs, one i bought had a defective
>metal slide thingy and i won't give them another chance...
Encouraging. Not. Other brands?
Al Evans
{$mjb/news-reply$}_@pootle.demon.co.uk (Mike) wrote:
[I said]
>
> >So I erased the disk, and tried recording new stuff (to test whether it had
> >been the machine or the disk). Everything worked.
>
> Interesting. How long did it take to "erase" the disk. Bearing in mind
> that if it was a low level integrity problem, you would need to "format"
> it rather than just mark the TOC as all empty. I guess that would take
> over 30 seconds, because there's a lot of disc to write. TOC clearing
> would be < 10 seconds. Which do you think it did?
It just wrote a new blank TOC (only took a second or so). Which, of course,
indicates that it was a problem with the software or the transport, not the
disk. Again, I'm betting that whatever cleaning Tascam did while they had
it was what really worked.