Batmud - The End (tm)

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Kristenlee Sadowski

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Sep 3, 1994, 3:15:06 PM9/3/94
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While I was happily mailing on Batmud, and I was not, I repeat, was not partying at the time, Faerwon decided
that I had to repent. This is pretty interesting, because the "need to repent" obviously isn't based on any
particular action (partying with an evil member, killing a good creature, etc.) because I did not kill anything or
party with anyone for awhile. Faerwon just got pissed off. Original sin I guess. So he threatened and
threatened to punish lil ole' Talien and since I really wasn't on all that long, I didn't bother to run the 5 to 10
minute walk to Shadowkeep. Well, Faerwon had enough one day and did a number on me.

In the middle of mailing, suddenly I was covered with scars, instantly famished, and my spell points went
from 1500 to -1500. A bit perturbed, I began the long journey to Shadowkeep. For the unitiated, to get
Faerwon to forgive you, you have to go to this absurdity known as the "Paladin
Gift Shop" and buy a robe, candles, and incense. Each of these cost money. You then have to drop them
before you in the altar room (I guess you don't wear the robe), and type "atone".

Thing is, atoning doesn't always work. It's a random chance.

Well, needless to say, I atoned about 6 times before the shop ran out of stuff to atone with. All the while,
I was starving and Faerwon was continually getting pissed off. At this point I had 10 scars, in places I
didn't even know you could get scars, I was at 1 hp, and -2000 sps. I had about 10000 gold cash on me,
sitting in the paladin shop, waiting for the place to somehow regenerate the components I needed to placate
Faerwon and get him off my back.

Does this seem a bit absurd to you? It did to me. Hell, never mind the fact that I never DID anything to
make Faerwon mad, I couldn't repent even when I tried.

I have been on this MUD for nearly two years. I was the first paladin, the first satyr, and I watched the paladins
guild go from having glowing purple "I love Zonni" badges to an actual respectable guild. We were a joke,
originally, and it was myself, Aruthra, Katscratx, Skyfire, and Whitehawk who established a role-playing format
and created our own orders. Zonni neither listened to us nor did he assist us, we did it all on our own.

So then, having this background, I think it would be reasonable for me to tell Zonni, upon seeing him on Bat
channel, that this was, and I quote, "ridiculous".

Well, I had begun to explain myself when I realized something was wrong, notably that Zonni had made himself
a ghost. I don't see Anipa doing this sort of thing so I suppose I should have realized that everyone's favorite
neighborhood immortal was plastered. Or that's what the other arches would later tell me.

To my complaint, Zonni gave me a rather clever answer. "If you don't like it, don't be one." Definitely the
words of a concerned god (or whatever Zonni counts as) who wants the best for his guild.

I was trying to gather a witty remark up, when Zonni began to work himself up. "Talien, I get a lot of mail
about you. Talien did this, Talien did that."

"You are too loud."

"Loud is bad."

"You need to be taught a lesson."

And then without further ado, Zonni zaps me (real hard when you're at 1 hit point).

Yes, this means I lost a few mil exps. It was a miracle that I did not lose a level when I was ressed with all
those scars on me.

I was understandably surprised. But I'm not stupid. After several arches doing tells (and bats) for me to shut
up, I shut bat channel off, and decided to make my way back to Shadowkeep - at the very least I could get
Faerwon to forgive me if Zonni wouldn't.

And while I was halfway there, in the wilderness, Zonni dested me - poof, there goes all my equipment.

I didn't even know why he did it, until I saw him on bat (bat last is a wonderful thing), antagonizing me. "Not
so talkative now, Talien? You're so quiet."

You know, the funny thing is, take away the fact that Zonni's an immortal, and he sounded just like all the other
assholes I've pked, arrested, had removed, deleted, etc.

So why am I leaving? Quite simply, because the MUD is no longer worth playing. Would a pitcher continue to
play baseball (not that they are now anyway) if he KNEW the ref was against him? Would you want to go on
with your life if you knew God didn't like you very much?

Would you play a MUD in which the prick who created your guild might get drunk and then start zapping you?

The answers, in order, are: No, no, and no.

I feel batmud has become unplayable not because of the system but because of the administration. There is no
hope for my guild when the guy who takes DONATIONS, the guy in charge of this whole place, blatantly
abuses his power. Hell, I can't touch him and as Zonni knows all too well, this kind of attitude is one of
desperation - they have all the hardware and software they need, they have all the cash donations - so what
ARE ya gonna do if he zaps you? It's not a joke, that "take one bitter deleted mortal, zap a little, enjoy." That's
not some kind of amusing anecdote put on there because they think it's funny. It's no more a joke than
"Archwizards are always right". There is a little group up top there who likes to keep things tight - those who
don't fall in line are removed from it. Ask Firefox. Ask Amarth. Hell, even ask Duke, he knows the game and
he knows how to play it, it's why he's the only American Arch around. Keep your nose clean, don't complain,
listen to what everyone else says, and you're qualified to be an immortal.

But remember if "you are too loud" "loud is bad".

I am not going to conform to some Nazi-rewrite conceptualization by a supposedly grown man who feels that I
make his MUD a little uncomfortable because I have the balls to complain about individuals, rules, etc. that are
just plain STUPID. It's funny because I never thought I'd support such radical ideas as not conforming to the
system, but I have to say that this MUD is shot. The system is great. The administration (except for a select
group of individuals who don't have all that much power), sucks.

I have never donated, I would NEVER donate, and I sincerely suggest you don't either. Let the tough guys do
it - the guys who spend 800$ on their characters so they can feel important because a bunch of numbers on the
screen show that they have 100+ stats and 2000+ hps/sps. The attitude fostered by the higher ups is filtering
down to the mortals, and they will propogate like a bunch of rabbits - have you noticed there's been a rising tide
of pkers, castle thieves, and general assholes? What do you expect? Look around, look at the administration,
look at what goes on and then try to come up with a reason why the shmucks SHOULDN'T play?

And I'm sure, you'll come up with the same answer I did. They not only are allowed to play, their activity is
ENCOURAGED. Notice how many little worms came crawling out of the woodwork to put me down when
they saw that Zonni zapped me. Heheh, hell, if the IMMORTAL can get away with it, we can too.

For all that, I've but one thing to say:

You can't zap, dest, kill, remove, banish, or otherwise silence someone on Usenet.

Have a nice day. >:)

Talien/Mike, who doesn't stay quiet for nobody


Jukka V{is{nen

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Sep 3, 1994, 11:23:03 PM9/3/94
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In article <34ahvq$n...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu> ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu (Kristenlee Sadowski) writes:


>For all that, I've but one thing to say:

>You can't zap, dest, kill, remove, banish, or otherwise silence someone on Usenet.

Don't be so sure, I've seen it happen.. ;)

>Talien/Mike, who doesn't stay quiet for nobody

Mordac, who is thinking about forging a cancel message just to prove a point.

--

...............................................................................
: Jukka.V...@hut.fi : #include <standard-disclaimer.h> :
:...........................:.................................................:
: +358-0-4682585 : J{mer{ntaival 3c392 02150 ESPOO Finland : Vaiski on IRC :
:................:............................................:...............:

Mike Simos

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Sep 5, 1994, 10:22:15 PM9/5/94
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In article <34ahvq$n...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu>,

Kristenlee Sadowski <ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>But remember if "you are too loud" "loud is bad".
>
>I am not going to conform to some Nazi-rewrite conceptualization by a supposedly grown man who feels that I
>make his MUD a little uncomfortable because I have the balls to complain about individuals, rules, etc. that are
>just plain STUPID. It's funny because I never thought I'd support such radical ideas as not conforming to the
>system, but I have to say that this MUD is shot. The system is great. The administration (except for a select
>group of individuals who don't have all that much power), sucks.
>
>I have never donated, I would NEVER donate, and I sincerely suggest you don't either. Let the tough guys do
>it - the guys who spend 800$ on their characters so they can feel important because a bunch of numbers on the
>screen show that they have 100+ stats and 2000+ hps/sps. The attitude fostered by the higher ups is filtering
>down to the mortals, and they will propogate like a bunch of rabbits - have you noticed there's been a rising tide
>of pkers, castle thieves, and general assholes? What do you expect? Look around, look at the administration,
>look at what goes on and then try to come up with a reason why the shmucks SHOULDN'T play?
>
>And I'm sure, you'll come up with the same answer I did. They not only are allowed to play, their activity is
>ENCOURAGED. Notice how many little worms came crawling out of the woodwork to put me down when
>they saw that Zonni zapped me. Heheh, hell, if the IMMORTAL can get away with it, we can too.
>
>For all that, I've but one thing to say:
>
>You can't zap, dest, kill, remove, banish, or otherwise silence someone on Usenet.
>
>Have a nice day. >:)
>
>Talien/Mike, who doesn't stay quiet for nobody
>

Funny that just sounds like a mud I use to play called Nuclear War.
Good to see that powertripping arches aren't just reserved for Nuclear
War. Do as I did, don't get mad, get even. *chuckle*

Mike Simos | "I know there is some cosmic diety
sim...@io.org | up there fucking with me
Toronto, Canada | he's no god of light
| cause when things are going right
| he turns the tables and cuts the cables
| and lets this poor puppet fall"

Matthew J Freeman

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Sep 6, 1994, 3:36:02 AM9/6/94
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heheh....

talien/mike has a VERY good point... in asking people about how fucked
the admin is, just ask old ridel... he'll tell you the real reason he was
removed from the game.

m...@kepler.unh.edu

oh... and if you have WWW access do http://bat.cs.hut.fi and check out
the picture of zonni... a face only a troll could love.

have a shitty day! *8)


Markku J{rvinen

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Sep 6, 1994, 3:39:19 AM9/6/94
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ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu (Kristenlee Sadowski) writes:
You write too long lines ... so I folded them to readable length
and I quoted about every line of your message to answer things
in place.

T>While I was happily mailing on Batmud, and I was not, I repeat, was
T>not partying at the time, Faerwon decided that I had to repent. This
T>is pretty interesting, because the "need to repent" obviously isn't
T>based on any particular action (partying with an evil member, killing
T>a good creature, etc.) because I did not kill anything or party with
T>anyone for awhile. Faerwon just got pissed off. Original sin I
T>guess. So he threatened and threatened to punish lil ole' Talien and
T>since I really wasn't on all that long, I didn't bother to run the 5
T>to 10 minute walk to Shadowkeep. Well, Faerwon had enough one day and
T>did a number on me.
So obviously you did not roleplay, would a true paladin just not do
anything when it was his time to make tribute to his GOD? If we have few
guilds that allow or mandate that you roleplay occasionally and you don't
so I think it is all your own fault.

T>In the middle of mailing, suddenly I was covered with scars, instantly
T>famished, and my spell points went from 1500 to -1500. A bit
T>perturbed, I began the long journey to Shadowkeep. For the unitiated,
T>to get Faerwon to forgive you, you have to go to this absurdity known
T>as the "Paladin Gift Shop" and buy a robe, candles, and incense. Each
T>of these cost money. You then have to drop them before you in the
T>altar room (I guess you don't wear the robe), and type "atone".
And now you are trying to put down more of that GOD, seems like you were
never a true paladin!

T>Thing is, atoning doesn't always work. It's a random chance.
So what works in the land of might and magic all the time, maybe your
GOD had better things to do than listen to you when you tried to please
him (as you obviously had not your heart with it).

T>Well, needless to say, I atoned about 6 times before the shop ran out
T>of stuff to atone with. All the while, I was starving and Faerwon was
T>continually getting pissed off. At this point I had 10 scars, in
T>places I didn't even know you could get scars, I was at 1 hp, and
T>-2000 sps. I had about 10000 gold cash on me, sitting in the paladin
T>shop, waiting for the place to somehow regenerate the components I
T>needed to placate Faerwon and get him off my back.
So the shop was poor, maybe you should contribute or have other paladins
contribute so the shop would get to its feet and have more things in
stock.

T>Does this seem a bit absurd to you? It did to me. Hell, never mind
T>the fact that I never DID anything to make Faerwon mad, I couldn't
T>repent even when I tried.
Well I think this proves it all, you simply don't know how to releplay,
and MUD without releplaying sucks (my personal opinion).

T>I have been on this MUD for nearly two years. I was the first
T>paladin, the first satyr, and I watched the paladins guild go from
T>having glowing purple "I love Zonni" badges to an actual respectable
T>guild. We were a joke, originally, and it was myself, Aruthra,
T>Katscratx, Skyfire, and Whitehawk who established a role-playing
T>format and created our own orders. Zonni neither listened to us nor
T>did he assist us, we did it all on our own.
And now you say that you did releplay, maybe it was back then and
you have forgotten how to do it anymore. Maybe you are just remembering
things long since forgotten.

T>So then, having this background, I think it would be reasonable for me
T>to tell Zonni, upon seeing him on Bat channel, that this was, and I
T>quote, "ridiculous".
I'm sorry that my environment crashed and I don't have this on my log,
but I bet you said much more than just plain this is quote "ridiculous".
If you'd said it once I bet Zonni would never have even seen it.

T>Well, I had begun to explain myself when I realized something was
T>wrong, notably that Zonni had made himself a ghost. I don't see Anipa
T>doing this sort of thing so I suppose I should have realized that
T>everyone's favorite neighborhood immortal was plastered. Or that's
T>what the other arches would later tell me.
You normally don't explain things in bat-channel, as people tend to
get into arguments which are not always factual and become very fast
heated discussions and usually nothing concrete comes from them.

T>To my complaint, Zonni gave me a rather clever answer. "If you don't
T>like it, don't be one." Definitely the words of a concerned god (or
T>whatever Zonni counts as) who wants the best for his guild.
From Zonni this sounds perfectly clear, if you can't stand the roleplay
bit that Zonni has put into paladins then you just don't deserve to
be one, simple as that.

T>I was trying to gather a witty remark up, when Zonni began to work
T>himself up. "Talien, I get a lot of mail about you. Talien did this,
T>Talien did that."
Maybe you are one of the people that are too sensitive about some things.
You try to look like a true roleplayer when things suit you, but whenever
there is a slight drawback you lose it.

[few lines of zonnis comments removed]

T>And then without further ado, Zonni zaps me (real hard when you're
T>at 1 hit point).
Zap is enough even if you had 10k hitpoints, so real hard is kinda lame
definition, but you don't piss of the coder of the guild (can be
looked as the GOD of your guild).

T>Yes, this means I lost a few mil exps. It was a miracle that I did
T>not lose a level when I was ressed with all those scars on me.
Few mil exps does not mean anything to you, and you cannot lose
a level if the resses is really balanced.

T>I was understandably surprised. But I'm not stupid. After several
T>arches doing tells (and bats) for me to shut up, I shut bat channel
T>off, and decided to make my way back to Shadowkeep - at the very least
T>I could get Faerwon to forgive me if Zonni wouldn't.
Looks like more stupidity on your part. Why the thing that Zonni zapped
you didn't ring any bells inside, maybe it would have been better to
try later.

T>And while I was halfway there, in the wilderness, Zonni dested me -
T>poof, there goes all my equipment.
Poor you I'd say, but life stinks when you make it stink.

T>I didn't even know why he did it, until I saw him on bat (bat last is
T>a wonderful thing), antagonizing me. "Not so talkative now, Talien?
T>You're so quiet."
Every man has a limit (and if Zonni really was drunk the limit was
lower than normal) on what kind of BS he can take.

T>You know, the funny thing is, take away the fact that Zonni's an
T>immortal, and he sounded just like all the other assholes I've pked,
T>arrested, had removed, deleted, etc.
You really are surprised that people are so like each other, when we
have this virtual world which limits us in many ways it is no surprise
to me.

T>So why am I leaving? Quite simply, because the MUD is no longer worth
T>playing. Would a pitcher continue to play baseball (not that they are
T>now anyway) if he KNEW the ref was against him? Would you want to go
T>on with your life if you knew God didn't like you very much?
So you lost the touch with MUD and with the creator of your favourite
guild. I'm sure that Zonni has nothing personal against you, it is just
that people who whine (and expect arches to jump when they do) sometimes
really piss us off.

T>Would you play a MUD in which the prick who created your guild might
T>get drunk and then start zapping you?
I think everyone needs to answer this for him/herself, but I think I could
play so low that I could enjoy it and not get zapped, but this is only
my personal feeling.

T>The answers, in order, are: No, no, and no.
Well you seem to have a problem here, you know things (for sure) that
others don't, like workings of Zonni's mind.

T>I feel batmud has become unplayable not because of the system but
T>because of the administration. There is no hope for my guild when the
T>guy who takes DONATIONS, the guy in charge of this whole place,
T>blatantly abuses his power. Hell, I can't touch him and as Zonni
T>knows all too well, this kind of attitude is one of desperation - they
T>have all the hardware and software they need, they have all the cash
T>donations - so what ARE ya gonna do if he zaps you? It's not a joke,
T>that "take one bitter deleted mortal, zap a little, enjoy." That's
T>not some kind of amusing anecdote put on there because they think it's
T>funny. It's no more a joke than "Archwizards are always right".
T>There is a little group up top there who likes to keep things tight -
T>those who don't fall in line are removed from it. Ask Firefox. Ask
T>Amarth. Hell, even ask Duke, he knows the game and he knows how to
T>play it, it's why he's the only American Arch around. Keep your nose
T>clean, don't complain, listen to what everyone else says, and you're
T>qualified to be an immortal.
I think this is an area you are not qualified to say anything, so I just
skip it with one comment, total bullshit all the previous chapter.

T>But remember if "you are too loud" "loud is bad".
Yes, if you irritate people that is bad, remember the saying:
"Don't get mad, get even!"

T>I am not going to conform to some Nazi-rewrite conceptualization by a
T>supposedly grown man who feels that I make his MUD a little
T>uncomfortable because I have the balls to complain about individuals,
T>rules, etc. that are just plain STUPID. It's funny because I never
T>thought I'd support such radical ideas as not conforming to the
T>system, but I have to say that this MUD is shot. The system is great.
T>The administration (except for a select group of individuals who don't
T>have all that much power), sucks.
And now starts the namecalling when everything else is gone.
I pity you if you have to resort things like this.

T>I have never donated, I would NEVER donate, and I sincerely suggest
T>you don't either. Let the tough guys do it - the guys who spend 800$
T>on their characters so they can feel important because a bunch of
T>numbers on the screen show that they have 100+ stats and 2000+
T>hps/sps. The attitude fostered by the higher ups is filtering down to
T>the mortals, and they will propogate like a bunch of rabbits - have
T>you noticed there's been a rising tide of pkers, castle thieves, and
T>general assholes? What do you expect? Look around, look at the
T>administration, look at what goes on and then try to come up with a
T>reason why the shmucks SHOULDN'T play?
This sounds like a kid telling ... I've been using your toys and
I didn't have to pay and now that you don't have nice toys anymore
I'm going to yell everybody that your toys suck and everybody should
go somewhere else to play. Because I don't have fun the rest are
not allowed to have fun either!

T>And I'm sure, you'll come up with the same answer I did. They not
T>only are allowed to play, their activity is ENCOURAGED. Notice how
T>many little worms came crawling out of the woodwork to put me down
T>when they saw that Zonni zapped me. Heheh, hell, if the IMMORTAL can
T>get away with it, we can too.
Well I'm sure when the new castlesystem arrives things will change.
I think that is the main reason nothing has been done to stop robbers,
as things are going to change soon anyway. And we have too much
stuff in chests, so maybe we want to increase the circulation of
items a bit.

T>For all that, I've but one thing to say:
Well you have said quite a many things before this...

T>You can't zap, dest, kill, remove, banish, or otherwise silence
T>someone on Usenet.
Freedom of Usenet is just an illusion, don't be fooled by it.

T>Have a nice day. >:)
I will!

T>Talien/Mike, who doesn't stay quiet for nobody

- Markku (one of arches)

Niilo Neuvo

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Sep 6, 1994, 9:33:42 AM9/6/94
to
m...@oin.unh.edu (Matthew J Freeman) writes:
> talien/mike has a VERY good point... in asking people about how fucked
> the admin is, just ask old ridel... he'll tell you the real reason he was
> removed from the game.

I delete around one player a day on the average. You can just figure
out how fucked I am.

++Anipa

David Bennett

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Sep 6, 1994, 12:37:41 PM9/6/94
to
sim...@io.org (Mike Simos) writes:

>In article <34ahvq$n...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu>,
>Kristenlee Sadowski <ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>>But remember if "you are too loud" "loud is bad".
>>
>>I am not going to conform to some Nazi-rewrite conceptualization
>>by a supposedly grown man who feels that I
>>make his MUD a little uncomfortable because I have the balls to
>>complain about individuals, rules, etc. that are
>>just plain STUPID. It's funny because I never thought I'd support
>>such radical ideas as not conforming to the
>>system, but I have to say that this MUD is shot. The system is
>>great. The administration (except for a select
>>group of individuals who don't have all that much power), sucks.

Damn. Youi mentioned nazi's al;ready. Now what have I got to drege
up and use as a tired argument? Some people have no respect. You should
know that you only mentiion nazi's after the third flame.

You never thgought you would support such radical ideas as
not coforming to the system? So your boring. Who cares?

The adminstration probably do not have much time. If they have a job or
are going to uni this would suck up a lot of their time. The rest
well. Say they have a couple of hours a day. Just catching up on mail and
news on a running mud can take a good hour or so. Dealing with problems
take significantly longer. Every wombat and their blue coloured lamp ray
wants to talk to you/hassle you about something/try and grow petunias
in your backyard. In a mud the size of BatMUD I can see why the arches
would become cynical and seem in some cases to not care. The fact they are
arches and still log on means they do.


>>I have never donated, I would NEVER donate, and I sincerely suggest
>>you don't either. Let the tough guys do
>>it - the guys who spend 800$ on their characters so they can feel
>>important because a bunch of numbers on the
>>screen show that they have 100+ stats and 2000+ hps/sps. The
>>attitude fostered by the higher ups is filtering
>>down to the mortals, and they will propogate like a bunch of rabbits -
>>have you noticed there's been a rising tide
>>of pkers, castle thieves, and general assholes? What do you
>>expect? Look around, look at the administration,
>>look at what goes on and then try to come up with a reason why the
>>shmucks SHOULDN'T play?

Now whos the fasist? Don't want to spend any of your ill gained wealth
huh? Fine to play it but, heck. Why should I want to give anything
back to a place where I spent two years. No idea, I bet no one else
has any idea either.


>>You can't zap, dest, kill, remove, banish, or otherwise silence someone on Usenet.

Close enough. Ever heard of kill files? And you can cancel mnews articles.

>Funny that just sounds like a mud I use to play called Nuclear War.
>Good to see that powertripping arches aren't just reserved for Nuclear

>War. Do as I did, don't get mad, get even. *chuckle*A

I always end up gettyying odd.

David.
[DDT] Pink fish forever.

Kristenlee Sadowski

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Sep 6, 1994, 3:05:02 PM9/6/94
to


I almost didn't bother to post a response to this one, merely because the accusations are so
groundless as to border on the absurd.

1) Talien, as anyone can tell you, role-played extensively. He was (usually) courteous,
kind, and when it came to the bad guys he was just plain stubborn. Let me tell you, I had
my days when I slipped and Talien was a foul-mouthed, violent individual on occassion -
but for the most part I tried my best to role-play on Batmud, back when there WERE no
role-players. I was continually criticized for role-playing when nobody saw any reason
for it (if only then I knew about MUSHes, *sigh*), but I can definitely state that there
were NO role-players for the longest time. Several of the paladin members created
various 'sects' of the paladins guild, and we nominated various individuals who belonged
to the guild to be leaders of their sect, Talien was made Arch-Prelate of the Paladins.
So although it can't be directly proven without witnesses speaking for me, I DID role-
play, and it had nothing to do with the rules of the MUD. I fault the admin. in charge of
the paladin guild that he didn't bother to perhaps ask for our advice or otherwise assimilate
our own little sects into part of the guild itself (i.e., a perfect opportunity/idea for code).

2) Paladins, as I have always read/role-played/or otherwise heard about, were not only
judged on JUST how faithful they were to their god, but how good they were in general -
Talien was not some evil arch-villain (although some people may say otherwise >:) ) who
went around looting and murdering, etc. No, Talien was, as I said previously, a generally
"good" character. For Faerwon to punish him so severely is ridiculous. The title "paladin
gift shop" sounds more like a commercialistic business where the god makes his money
not by tithes but by how many souveniours the tourists will buy. It's just plain silly.

3) As for the atonement - it's a flat, random chance, having nothing to do with role-playing.
In fact, I wrote several long posts (remember Zonni said I'm loud? He wasn't kidding),
about the severe lack of role-playing and why it's impossible to do so - I refer anyone
interested to Batmud's news general for my comments on that (and spare everyone
another hideously long post). There's simply no way I can "replenish the shop" and
get it back on its feet - we're talking how the place is coded here, and that's simply
something I couldn't possibly get around - if the shop runs out of stuff (again - a Paladin
Gift Shop? "I'm sorry sir but we're all out of Paladinwear (tm) for atonement, perhaps
you should try level three, the longerie section of our department store..."), it
runs out of stuff. Plain and simple, and no amount of role-playing will replenish the
shop.

4) It's rather amusing that the individual who posted presumes that "every man has his
limit" - even gods. Ah, yes. I see, gods are people too, and therefore, when they get
drunk and go around zapping an individual, and when he makes everyone on the MUD
shout, "Zonni is the anti-god!" and when he dests you after that for good measure - ah
yes, the poor fellow is only human, and as we all know, gods should be allowed to do
whenever they want and we secretly they're great guys. Funny that it was never stated
that perhaps there's something wrong with a god getting on who is blasted and is having
"a bad day". I dunno, you'd think the person in charge of donations for Batmud (a hefty
responsibility) would have enough good sense to not get on a MUD when he's having
a bad time of it. But then, he's only human, right?

5) The other implication (and now that I am a little wizling myself on another MUD I get
the "administrative perspective") that when I whined I expected the arches to jump is
utterly false. I was explaining what I saw as a problem with the guild, to a god, foolishly
(and naievely) thinking that he might hear my complaint and attempt to rectify it rather
than blasting me to shut me up.

6) This post has proven yet another example of what's wrong with Bat - this guy's an
ARCH on there? I dread to think how an arch such as this responds to a complaint about
his guild - it's obviously the mortal's fault, the whining mortal expects the arch to jump
when he complains, and most of all, the best excuse for doing anything (including abuse
of power) is that immortal's having a bad day. Shaddup, take your zap, and play nice. >:)

Talien, who thinks the only way to do it right is to be a wiz himself >:)

: T>not partying at the time, Faerwon decided that I had to repent. This

Bob Farmer

unread,
Sep 6, 1994, 11:03:47 PM9/6/94
to
In article <34j22r$f...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu> ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu (Kristenlee Sadowski) writes:
>After a post like this...my point's been made in spades.
>No excuses, no answers, and not even a good response.
>Feel free to visit RetroMUD: MUD.ID.NET 3000 - we're nothing but
>a fetus of a MUD right now but we're working on it.
>And I'm going to do my best not to be a part of...well, not to
>be a part of the "delete a player a day" club.
>
>Talien/Mike...who thinks he made his point

Well, guess I'm quite fucked then, I'm sure I probably delete more than
one player per day on average. Does this disqualify me from club
membership? Fuck.

--
Bob Farmer ucs...@pip.shsu.edu
University Computer Services, Sam Houston State Univ. (409)294-3546

Gregory Avicola

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 12:48:29 AM9/7/94
to
In article <34j22r$f...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu>,
Kristenlee Sadowski <ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>After a post like this...my point's been made in spades.
>No excuses, no answers, and not even a good response.
>Feel free to visit RetroMUD: MUD.ID.NET 3000 - we're nothing but
>a fetus of a MUD right now but we're working on it.
>And I'm going to do my best not to be a part of...well, not to
>be a part of the "delete a player a day" club.
>
>Talien/Mike...who thinks he made his point

I as a newbie on batmud heard it was really good and checked it out and it
has absolutely the most awesome features i have ever seen in a mud..
However, listening to the responses the admins have been giving abou this
issue is not ecouraging. I have to say as somone thinking about playing
this place alot, you sure are not giving a good impression.

If this guy is a whiner/deserves to get nuked, i do not know, but i do know
that you did not answer one thing he said about the problems..

I dont know if i want to play somewhere where an arch wizard in a drunken
frenzy can do whatever he likes possibly destroying hours of playing time
just becuase he feels like it, and then have any complaints on the matter
ignored or even worse, used against you.

IF talien deserved this you should say why, WAS zonni drunk, did he deserve
to get dested? Is the paladins guild that messed right now? etc etc etc

If you can answer this in a mature way I and alot of other new players
would feel better about playing a mud. Up to now, ive only seen childish
posts by the wizes.
-Greg

Petri Virkkula

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 1:40:57 AM9/7/94
to
On 6 Sep 1994 19:05:02 GMT, ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu (Kristenlee Sadowski) said:

Talien> 3) As for the atonement - it's a flat, random chance, having
Talien> nothing to do with role-playing. In fact, I wrote several
Talien> long posts (remember Zonni said I'm loud? He wasn't kidding),
Talien> about the severe lack of role-playing and why it's impossible
Talien> to do so - I refer anyone interested to Batmud's news general
Talien> for my comments on that (and spare everyone another hideously
Talien> long post).

BatMUD news can be read with normal newsreaders (atleast with
GNUS). Our NNTP-server (coded with LPC) listens normal NNTP
port (which is 119. Everybody is free to read articlesthere,
unfortunately it's not possible to write without special
access checking. Writing and reading is possible from inside
of the mud, it's worth of reading "help news".

Petri (former arch of BatMUD)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Petri Virkkula | Internet: Petri.V...@hut.fi
JMT 11 E 125 | X.400 : /G=Petri/S=Virkkula/O=hut/ADMD=fumail/C=fi/
02150 Espoo | Voice : +358 0 455 1277
FINLAND |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Niilo Neuvo

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 3:51:57 AM9/7/94
to
ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu (Kristenlee Sadowski) writes:
> : I delete around one player a day on the average. You can just figure

> : out how fucked I am.
>
> : ++Anipa

Actually I remember deleting 2000 characters on one day. It is
usually called a player purge. This means that you get rid of all the
unused characters (no money, no exp, level 1, not played for a month).

Those 2000 characters are enough to supply me an average deletion rate
of 1/day for over 5 years.

> And I'm going to do my best not to be a part of...well, not to
> be a part of the "delete a player a day" club.

I hope you have a big disk. Remember to give players random names so
that they won't ask you for a deletion of an unused character, that
has 'their' name.

> Talien/Mike...who thinks he made his point

All publicity is good publicity.

++Anipa

Markku J{rvinen

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 3:55:20 AM9/7/94
to
ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu (Kristenlee Sadowski a.k.a. Talien) writes:
Now I don't quote so much, read the refrence if you need.

T>I almost didn't bother to post a response to this one, merely
T>because the accusations are so groundless as to border on the absurd.
I don't think they are groundless, but let's see. And you still write
too long lines.

T>1) Talien, as anyone can tell you, role-played extensively. He was
T>[... removed ...]
But for just this once you decided not to roleplay, "my GOD can wait,
I have more important things to do". And for that your GOD got angry
and decided to punish you. Seems like self inflicted thing this curse.

T>2) Paladins, as I have always read/role-played/or otherwise heard
T>[... removed ...]
Sure, whenever there is a religion there is some business that gets
it's business from the poor suckers that believe in it. That is how
the system works, some religions have it better, but all I've seen
sell something to cover expenses.

T>3) As for the atonement - it's a flat, random chance, having nothing
T>[... removed ...]
No, it is not flat random, it has to do with gifts you bring. About
the shop you are right, but if you think of it, are there any shops
that are full all the time.

T>4) It's rather amusing that the individual who posted presumes that
T>[... removed ...]
Ever thought that we do something other than look over you when in MUD.
We try to have good time ourselves and talk a lot, maybe that should
just be something reserved for players?

T>5) The other implication (and now that I am a little wizling myself
T>[... removed ...]
The way things work is that you get a discussion going in news or in
mail. I personally hate to describe the same thing for several people
in the row because they ask the same question (and then answer again
next day). So use the proper channels.

T>6) This post has proven yet another example of what's wrong with Bat
T>[... removed ...]
What did I say towards this? I have my work to do, I do this on my free
time. So if you start to complain directly to me and not use the means
provided (idea or bug, depending on what it is) you just show no respect
of my privacy.

T>Talien, who thinks the only way to do it right is to be a wiz
T>[... the character removed ...]

- Markku

Petri Virkkula

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 3:54:42 AM9/7/94
to
On 7 Sep 1994 03:03:47 GMT, ucs...@pip.shsu.edu (Bob Farmer) said:

Bob> Well, guess I'm quite fucked then, I'm sure I probably delete
Bob> more than one player per day on average. Does this disqualify me
Bob> from club membership? Fuck.

I calculated yesterday that I removed 10-11 players per day
on average during last year. Can I join the club? :-)

Petri

Petri Virkkula

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 3:57:44 AM9/7/94
to
On 07 Sep 1994 05:40:57 GMT, Petri.V...@hut.fi (Petri Virkkula) said:

I wrote> BatMUD news can be read with normal newsreaders (atleast with
I wrote> GNUS). Our NNTP-server (coded with LPC) listens normal NNTP port
I wrote> (which is 119. Everybody is free to read articlesthere,
I wrote> unfortunately it's not possible to write without special access
I wrote> checking. Writing and reading is possible from inside of the mud,
I wrote> it's worth of reading "help news".

I forgot to give address, it is bat.cs.hut.fi (130.233.40.180)

Petri

Stig Sæther Bakken

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 4:33:06 AM9/7/94
to
In article <34j22r$f...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu> ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu (Kristenlee Sadowski) writes:

> After a post like this...my point's been made in spades.
> No excuses, no answers, and not even a good response.
> Feel free to visit RetroMUD: MUD.ID.NET 3000 - we're nothing but
> a fetus of a MUD right now but we're working on it.

> And I'm going to do my best not to be a part of...well, not to
> be a part of the "delete a player a day" club.
>

> Talien/Mike...who thinks he made his point

With more people with you around, I'd delete more!

Auronthas
--
Email: Stig....@pvv.unit.no, XPilot/IRC: Euphoriac, MUDs: Auronthas
<A HREF="http://www.pvv.unit.no/~ssb">My WWW page</A>
GCS d@ -p+ c++(++++) l++ u+ e* m++(-) s++/- n- h-- f+ g+(-) w+ t- r y+(*)

Duane Lunday

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 4:49:24 AM9/7/94
to

>All publicity is good publicity.
>
>++Anipa

I'm sure that Pee Wee Herman and O. J. Simpson would certainly agree
with that!


dlu...@onramp.com

Kristenlee Sadowski

unread,
Sep 6, 1994, 8:38:51 PM9/6/94
to

: ++Anipa

After a post like this...my point's been made in spades.

DININ

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 9:06:32 AM9/7/94
to


Heh.. back to where all this mess started... Who even said muds are
democratic and caring anyways? If ya are gonna be an butt, someone is
sure to get ticked and slam your player. That is how everything works.
Live with it. I have.

Rob Kennedy std...@pip.shsu.edu


Jacob Hallen

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 5:30:52 PM9/7/94
to
In article <SSB.94Se...@nova.pvv.unit.no>,

Stig Sæther Bakken <s...@pvv.unit.no> wrote:
>In article <34j22r$f...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu> ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu (Kristenlee Sadowski) writes:
>
>> After a post like this...my point's been made in spades.
>> No excuses, no answers, and not even a good response.
>> Feel free to visit RetroMUD: MUD.ID.NET 3000 - we're nothing but
>> a fetus of a MUD right now but we're working on it.
>> And I'm going to do my best not to be a part of...well, not to
>> be a part of the "delete a player a day" club.
>>
>> Talien/Mike...who thinks he made his point
>
>With more people with you around, I'd delete more!
>
>Auronthas

Hear, hear!
The Cabal of Nasty Nazi Mud Admins has excommunicated you. We are strong, we are
few, and we eat people like you for midmorning snack. Any player should feel
lucky if he is ignored by a member of the CNNMA.

We can change your virtual life into virtual hell, and we do in with a sadistic
smile.

Now go away, or you will be taunted a second time.

Jacob Hallen

Rudolf Gross

unread,
Sep 8, 1994, 3:34:18 PM9/8/94
to
In article <1994Sep8.0...@bradford.ac.uk> M.A....@bradford.ac.uk (m.a.hall) writes:
>
>Exactly. If Batmud is so fucked... none of the admin care... they only
>log on to zap players, wasting hours of their time... Quite simply, leave,
>don't waste your breath taunting the 'admin society' who'll simply pat each
>other on the head with feeble joke.

I'm not so sure about that. In more than 4 years I've never encountered a
single Admin who didn't care when his mud and manners were being attacked.
As a general rule, the less the Admin claims to care, the more annoyed he
tends to be. After all, "stop whining, sniveling idiot" means nothing else
than "shut up, I don't want to hear and talk about it".

>(Christ! The 'puny mortals fuck up
>muds' joke was old about 2 years ago[3 years?]) It's like someone has
>already mentioned. If you are playing with some kids, and the person who
>owns the ball decides to be a dick, go play with someone else.. buy your
>own ball... take up piano lessons or something. Crying at people, for whom
>kicking someone who is crying in the teeth makes their day, is a completely
>worthless occupation.
>
Not at all worthless. The admin's reactions to 'whining' players are quite
telling. It is a good indication of his attitude towards players. If he is
the 'high and mighty' type, he will usually flame and belittle the player
instead of giving a short statement, _why_ the player has been banished.
They are just too cool and worthy for something like that.

More mature and responsible Admins usually don't have to bear player flames
on the net like that. A brief explanation usually does the job.

Before my asbestos has got to save me: I know, I know. There's no way telling
an admin how to run his mud. And yes, he can do whatever he wants in his mud.
But player flames and especially the followups to them give players a good
impression of how they can expect to be treated by the admins. And I wouldn't
call this a 'worthless occupation' at all.
Mentar

m.a.hall

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 8:17:24 PM9/7/94
to
DININ (std...@SHSU.edu) wrote:


: Heh.. back to where all this mess started... Who even said muds are


: democratic and caring anyways? If ya are gonna be an butt, someone is
: sure to get ticked and slam your player. That is how everything works.
: Live with it. I have.

: Rob Kennedy std...@pip.shsu.edu


Exactly. If Batmud is so fucked... none of the admin care... they only
log on to zap players, wasting hours of their time... Quite simply, leave,
don't waste your breath taunting the 'admin society' who'll simply pat each

other on the head with feeble joke. (Christ! The 'puny mortals fuck up


muds' joke was old about 2 years ago[3 years?]) It's like someone has
already mentioned. If you are playing with some kids, and the person who
owns the ball decides to be a dick, go play with someone else.. buy your
own ball... take up piano lessons or something. Crying at people, for whom
kicking someone who is crying in the teeth makes their day, is a completely
worthless occupation.


Mike Hall

the koog

unread,
Sep 8, 1994, 4:33:10 PM9/8/94
to
In article <009841AF...@SHSU.edu> std...@SHSU.edu writes:
[snip]

>Heh.. back to where all this mess started... Who even said muds are
>democratic and caring anyways? If ya are gonna be an butt, someone is
>sure to get ticked and slam your player. That is how everything works.
>Live with it. I have.
>
>Rob Kennedy std...@pip.shsu.edu
>
>

not neccessarily *everything.* i once ran a muck where there were absolutely
NO rules. and had the site admin not killed it after eight months, it would've
lasted. you could be a butt and get praised for it. :)

--

--dan

**************************************************

Pekka Aakko

unread,
Sep 7, 1994, 9:26:57 PM9/7/94
to
Just caught my eye. I kinda feel sorry for the kid, to come and
whine here that I have been zapped... *sniff* ;)

Most of this posting has been deleted.

Anyways, few things I would like to comment:

In article <34ahvq$n...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu>,
Kristenlee Sadowski <ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu> wrote:

>"Archwizards are always right". There is a little group up top there who
>likes to keep things tight - those who don't fall in line are removed from
>it. Ask Firefox. Ask Amarth. Hell, even ask Duke, he knows the game and
>he knows how to play it, it's why he's the only American Arch around.
>Keep your nose clean, don't complain, listen to what everyone else says,
>and you're qualified to be an immortal.

I would like to ask you on WHAT grounds you tell the world
these things? You have never been an immortal in Bat so you
really dont know what you are talking about. Firefox hasn't
been arch in bat, Amarth was and did few errors and was removed
from archhood. No, the errors weren't those you mentioned,
and it is not my job to explain what someone did to the whole
world when the thing concerns only the certain mud.

>But remember if "you are too loud" "loud is bad".

Yes... "loud", "annoying", "right everytime" go together
or what, Talien? ;-)

>You can't zap, dest, kill, remove, banish, or otherwise silence someone
>on Usenet.

Heh... true... but you can do lotsa other things here
as your posting has shown us :)

No, I don't want this to be a flame war - this could open
nice discussion about politics of mud administration. I myself
have nothing to do with the mentioned incident, but yet I
found this complaint rather stupid... heh, don't think I want
to silence someone.. no :) the case is that I know things
more deeply.. as a neutral bystander. And on that basis
I made my comments.

Well, hopefully Talien has found another mud that doesn't
suck, fuck, grind, treat unfairly, zap, abuse admin powers,
rip money, cheat, use illusions, blaah as BatMUD.

Yours Sincerely,
Pekka Aakko
aka Arakorni

Bob Farmer

unread,
Sep 8, 1994, 3:00:28 AM9/8/94
to
In article <34jgmt$q...@chopin.udel.edu> gavi...@chopin.udel.edu (Gregory Avicola) writes:
>In article <34j22r$f...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu>,
>Kristenlee Sadowski <ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>>: m...@oin.unh.edu (Matthew J Freeman) writes:
>>: > talien/mike has a VERY good point... in asking people about how fucked
>>: > the admin is, just ask old ridel... he'll tell you the real reason he was
>>: > removed from the game.
>>
>>: I delete around one player a day on the average. You can just figure
>>: out how fucked I am.
>>
>>: ++Anipa
>>
>>After a post like this...my point's been made in spades.
>>No excuses, no answers, and not even a good response.
>>Feel free to visit RetroMUD: MUD.ID.NET 3000 - we're nothing but
>>a fetus of a MUD right now but we're working on it.
>>And I'm going to do my best not to be a part of...well, not to
>>be a part of the "delete a player a day" club.
>>
>>Talien/Mike...who thinks he made his point
>
>I as a newbie on batmud heard it was really good and checked it out and it
>has absolutely the most awesome features i have ever seen in a mud..
>However, listening to the responses the admins have been giving abou this
>issue is not ecouraging. I have to say as somone thinking about playing
>this place alot, you sure are not giving a good impression.
>
>If this guy is a whiner/deserves to get nuked, i do not know, but i do know
>that you did not answer one thing he said about the problems..

What's the point? No matter how whoever runs BatMUD responds, he's going
to come back with counter-arguments.

>I dont know if i want to play somewhere where an arch wizard in a drunken
>frenzy can do whatever he likes possibly destroying hours of playing time
>just becuase he feels like it, and then have any complaints on the matter
>ignored or even worse, used against you.

You don't want to play any mud then. The people who own/run a mud can do
whatever they want anywhere. Duh.

>IF talien deserved this you should say why, WAS zonni drunk, did he deserve
>to get dested? Is the paladins guild that messed right now? etc etc etc
>
>If you can answer this in a mature way I and alot of other new players
>would feel better about playing a mud. Up to now, ive only seen childish
>posts by the wizes.
>-Greg

--

m.a.hall

unread,
Sep 8, 1994, 5:11:56 PM9/8/94
to
Rudolf Gross (gro...@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE) wrote:

: In article <1994Sep8.0...@bradford.ac.uk> M.A....@bradford.ac.uk (m.a.hall) writes:
: >
: >Exactly. If Batmud is so fucked... none of the admin care... they only
: >log on to zap players, wasting hours of their time... Quite simply, leave,
: >don't waste your breath taunting the 'admin society' who'll simply pat each
: >other on the head with feeble joke.

: I'm not so sure about that. In more than 4 years I've never encountered a
: single Admin who didn't care when his mud and manners were being attacked.

*snicker* Nice little world you live in. As a rule, all admin _know_ that
they are the greatest coders in the world, their mud is the greatest and
that it is your _privilege_ to be fucked around by them.
: As a general rule, the less the Admin claims to care, the more annoyed he


: tends to be. After all, "stop whining, sniveling idiot" means nothing else
: than "shut up, I don't want to hear and talk about it".

Those two lines contradict each other in many ways... I'd agree with the
last sentence. On a lot of muds, any suggestion is greeted as a whine. I
just don't see the point in advising someone to waste their life somewhere,
where they aren't appreciated as the Batmud victim appears not to be.
[snip]
: >kicking someone who is crying in the teeth makes their day, is a completely


: >worthless occupation.
: >
: Not at all worthless. The admin's reactions to 'whining' players are quite
: telling. It is a good indication of his attitude towards players. If he is
: the 'high and mighty' type, he will usually flame and belittle the player
: instead of giving a short statement, _why_ the player has been banished.
: They are just too cool and worthy for something like that.

Bs. Admin log on to muds to have _fun_ often. Insulting people who enjoy
their code and completely wasting their time isn't unheard of... Short
flames aren't enjoyable to write. A long flame, which all the boot
lickers can get some saliva on, gives more satisfaction. The boot lickers
will cheer out loud and massage the admin's ego some more. Fine if you
like it. If you don't, don't waste your life there...

: More mature and responsible Admins usually don't have to bear player flames


: on the net like that. A brief explanation usually does the job.

Quite true. Certainly some of the batmud admin have come across like well-
rubbed nuggets of chickenshit. They have done what you said 'Mature and
responsible Admins' don't have to do. They're enjoying themselves, why
shouldn't you... somewhere else.

: Before my asbestos has got to save me: I know, I know. There's no way telling


: an admin how to run his mud. And yes, he can do whatever he wants in his mud.
: But player flames and especially the followups to them give players a good
: impression of how they can expect to be treated by the admins. And I wouldn't
: call this a 'worthless occupation' at all.
: Mentar

Quite true- and when a player who has been playing as long as Talien gets
pissed on like that, you realise how Batmud must be run. I hope the
mutual backpatting society of Batmud realise now how their stupid flames
looked on the net now. To me, and to at least three others who took the
time to email me on the subject (so probably a hell of a lot more
lurkers), Batmud admin looked like dicks. Plain and simple. You may have
a million players, but you still came across as dicks. Can you read the
writing on the wall now?


Mike Hall

Kristenlee Sadowski

unread,
Sep 10, 1994, 2:55:11 AM9/10/94
to

The big reply:

Well, seems I did generate a bit of attention here, didn't I?
The post (and all those which came afterwards) did exactly what I wanted
it to do, and that is, bring attention to the attitude,
whether it is a god on
batmud or a wizling on some other MUD, that "administration can do
whatever they want".

Yer damn right they can.

By all rights, the administration can virtually blast you, obliterate
you, be rather unfair about the whole thing, and prevent you from
playing the MUD.

HOWEVER (and this is a big however here):

Such actions have equal and opposite reactions. Abuse your players,
and they'll leave. Plain and simple. Administration can say whatever
they want - there is no administration without players, they have no one
to administrate over.

#1 Rule of a Tyrant: Abuse the people then reward them so they can
continue to tolerate the abuse. Unfortunately, while I have tolerated
a lot of ridiculous stuff from wizzes/arches/etc., being zapped and then
dested for (and I must stress Arakorni obviously felt Zonni's actions
were wrong or he wouldn't have fixed Talien after the god's drunken
zap/deletion) little reason is pushing it. A lot of people have said, "so
tough". The gods on Batmud said that as well, including several of those
who posted. This was never intended by any means to be an effort to
'reinstate' Talien on the MUD, nor did I expect a massive MUD riot so
the mortals would rise up and take over Batmud and the land would live
in peace and harmony. What I DID want was a discussion, using a worst-case
scenario (Batmud in this case) of what a "good" administration is.

To quote someone else, I "bought my own ball." I am now on another
MUD, as a wiz, and trying my best (lordy knows it ain't easy).

So far, I haven't seen much in the way of overbearing egos, anyone
coming on drunk to zap anyone else, or any of the nonsense I explained
(some would say whined) about Batmud. I see people who code, who
care about coding and who care about who comes on - of course, since
we're in the formative stages, I'm sure that's a team effort and therefore
we're more likely to be accommodating to a mortal - but conversely - does
that mean because you're a "big, popular MUD" you should be able to
treat your players like dirt?


m.a.hall (M.A....@bradford.ac.uk) wrote:

Kristenlee Sadowski

unread,
Sep 10, 1994, 2:58:57 AM9/10/94
to
This is not to say that I think administrators
should be at the beck and call of
their players. One player came on and demanded I trans him somewhere...
when I gave him the directions to walk there, he told me it was too far and
continued to expect a wiz ride.

So with that little experience in mind, I'll say something else: I am not against
arches, wizzes, or administration. I am against the abuse of power - players who
expect immortals to jump at their beck and call are equally at fault. However,
when someone says "your monster is too hard" or "this spell sucks" or even
"your guild is ridiculous" , sure I might be a bit miffed, but I want to IMPROVE
things, so I pay attention. It makes sense. I obviously can't judge with an
unbiased opinion a monster which I coded - I'm thinking about whether
or not he casts fireballs and how hard he is, etc., not just survival. A
player's opinion is the most reliable. While they may not know code,
these are the guys who live and breathe the guild after the wizzes code
them, these are the guys who fight those monsters every day, these are
the guys who live and die by the WIZZES' code. It's the player's business
to keep his character alive, selfish perhaps, but it does not invalidate a player's
opinion. It takes a lot to ask, in the face of "this monster sucks, recode it" to
swallow my pride and ask "why?" But I do, and I take that commentary
into account along with other players and wizzes.

A MUD, being a game, means that the game would be meaningless without
a challenge. Too easy, and no one will play, too hard...and no one will play.
The players are the wiz's eyes and ears. They PLAY the game, after all, it's
why they're there.

My point is (EGADS I'VE FOUND A POINT!) that I do not believe absolute
power HAS to corrupt absolutely. Some of the responses to this post seemed
almost indignant that I even brought the subject to light, a kind of "how dare you,
you can't do anything about it so why are you whining?" attitude - and of course,
if you see this as whining, then your mind is already closed to the idea of a
relatively fair administration.

Just because you're a god, and have the ability to blow someone to bits
does NOT mean you should be praised for it, certainly doesn't mean such
routine abuse is expected, and if you use such titanic forces wisely...THAT
is the definition of a good administrator.

It's not in the powers, but the attitude.

Talien/Mike

David Bennett

unread,
Sep 11, 1994, 9:24:41 PM9/11/94
to
In message <34jaij$q...@ghost.shsu.edu> - ucs...@pip.shsu.edu (Bob Farmer) writ
es:

>
>Well, guess I'm quite fucked then, I'm sure I probably delete more than
>one player per day on average. Does this disqualify me from club
>membership? Fuck

Yes, I am afraid so. You have to go into the delete many players a day
club. The memberships are mutually exclusive. However, you do get a gold
plated wombat as a joining gift.

Andy Lewis

unread,
Sep 12, 1994, 6:38:55 AM9/12/94
to
In <34rl8f$9...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu> ksad...@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu (Kristenlee Sadowski) writes:


>So far, I haven't seen much in the way of overbearing egos, anyone
>coming on drunk to zap anyone else, or any of the nonsense I explained
>(some would say whined) about Batmud. I see people who code, who
>care about coding and who care about who comes on - of course, since
>we're in the formative stages, I'm sure that's a team effort and therefore
>we're more likely to be accommodating to a mortal - but conversely - does
>that mean because you're a "big, popular MUD" you should be able to
>treat your players like dirt?

Hmmm. I've been reading this debate with interest, because the postings from
many of the Batmud arches, together with the description of the original
incident are all a little disturbing. I'm a Lord (a bit below Arch status,
but higher than a normal wiz) on Discworld, and much of what has been said
here really goes against all my reasons for being a MUD creator.
My philosophy is that a MUD exists for the benefit of its players. The MUD
admin also exists for the benefit of the players. I don't like desting
people, and when a player needs disciplining in some way, I feel that if
I have to resort to using my "powers", I've failed in some way.
I have no god-given right to be a lord - I am helping to provide a service
for the players, and I get a lot of satisfaction from what I do.
The impression that I get from several of the posters in this debate
is "players are allowed to play on our sufferance", and this is more
than backed up by the Batmud online help topic "archwizard's handbook".
This to me is bad enough for a normal mud, but on a donation-fuelled one,
I find it horrifying.

Anyway, enough from me....

Andy (aka Dek@Discworld)


--
Andy Lewis (a...@ecs.soton.ac.uk) | Confucius, he say -
Department of Electronics | "To juggle, need many
and Computer Science | many mind pieces."
University of Southampton |

David Bennett

unread,
Sep 11, 1994, 9:32:36 PM9/11/94
to
In message <34novq$4...@hpsystem1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> - grossr@Informatik

TU-Muenchen.DE (Rudolf Gross) writes:
>More mature and responsible Admins usually don't have to bear player flames
>on the net like that. A brief explanation usually does the job.
>
>Before my asbestos has got to save me: I know, I know. There's no way telling
>an admin how to run his mud. And yes, he can do whatever he wants in his mud.
>But player flames and especially the followups to them give players a good
>impression of how they can expect to be treated by the admins. And I wouldn't
>call this a 'worthless occupation' at all.


Not all Mud admins are male you know.

David Bennett

unread,
Sep 11, 1994, 9:37:21 PM9/11/94
to
In message <1994Sep8.2...@bradford.ac.uk> - M.A....@bradford.ac.uk (m.

a.hall) writes:
>Quite true- and when a player who has been playing as long as Talien gets
>pissed on like that, you realise how Batmud must be run. I hope the
>mutual backpatting society of Batmud realise now how their stupid flames
>looked on the net now. To me, and to at least three others who took the
>time to email me on the subject (so probably a hell of a lot more
>lurkers), Batmud admin looked like dicks. Plain and simple. You may have
>a million players, but you still came across as dicks. Can you read the
>writing on the wall now?

As far as I know only one or two Batmud people have actually responded to your
threatening and name calling letters. The original post was one long dribble
that was pretty difficult to read. Your posts however are just plain
offensive. I would rather be on BatMud with Anipa who has come across as much
more of a person than yourself, than on your mud.

Lost for words,

Reimer Behrends

unread,
Sep 11, 1994, 10:49:03 PM9/11/94
to
David Bennett (d...@iinet.com.au) wrote:
: In message <34novq$4...@hpsystem1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> - grossr@Informatik
: TU-Muenchen.DE (Rudolf Gross) writes:
: >Before my asbestos has got to save me: I know, I know. There's no way telling

: >an admin how to run his mud. And yes, he can do whatever he wants in his mud.
[...]

: Not all Mud admins are male you know.

You know, the proper English pronoun to use for a person of unknown
gender is 'he'.

Reimer "Why do I join this stupid flame war" Behrends

Jukka V{is{nen

unread,
Sep 12, 1994, 10:55:52 PM9/12/94
to
In article <350fiv$b...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:

>: Not all Mud admins are male you know.

>You know, the proper English pronoun to use for a person of unknown
>gender is 'he'.

But in a MUD it's always 'it'.. ;)

- Vaiski
--

...............................................................................
: Jukka.V...@hut.fi : #include <standard-disclaimer.h> :
:...........................:.................................................:
: +358-0-4682585 : J{mer{ntaival 3c392 02150 ESPOO Finland : Vaiski on IRC :
:................:............................................:...............:

Tim Hollebeek

unread,
Sep 12, 1994, 5:11:30 AM9/12/94
to
In article <350fiv$b...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:
I believe the lastest from the Center for Political Correctness is:
he/she/gender challenged person.

-Beek

George Reese

unread,
Sep 13, 1994, 12:54:32 PM9/13/94
to
Reimer Behrends (behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de) wrote:

That's what the textbooks say, however, they are wrong. Best to
phrase things without noting gender at all than to use any gender.
However, Pinkfish, bad form for correcting English grammar for a
non-native speaker in Usenet. You go to the penalty box for a day.

--
George Reese
Descartes of Borg
bo...@icicle.winternet.com http://www.winternet.com/~borg/
phone/fax: (612) 829-5495 ftp://nightmare.winternet.com/

"No one ever conquered Wyoming from the left or from the right."
-Camper Van Beethoven

David BENNETT

unread,
Sep 13, 1994, 9:51:15 PM9/13/94
to

>In article <350fiv$b...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:

>>: Not all Mud admins are male you know.

>>You know, the proper English pronoun to use for a person of unknown
>>gender is 'he'.

This is not true. There are gender non specific pronouns. it, they, them
person. In the case I was replying to they would have been appropriate.

Use of he and other such sexist terms is to be discouraged. If you are
wondering why, let me explain. You think in the language you write/say
I hope you will agree. If you write say things in a sexist fashion,
ie where male is 'normal' and female is an exception to the rule. You
will also think this way. One of the best ways to stop being sexist
is to stop thinking this way, a good start to this is to fix your
language.

So, fix your language.

David.
[DDT] Forever exploding.

m.a.hall

unread,
Sep 14, 1994, 7:10:25 AM9/14/94
to
David Bennett (d...@iinet.com.au) wrote:
: In message <1994Sep8.2...@bradford.ac.uk> - M.A....@bradford.ac.uk (m.

Erm.., I'm not Talien.


Mike Hall (not Talien or Anipa or even from Scandanavia)

Reimer Behrends

unread,
Sep 15, 1994, 11:52:56 AM9/15/94
to
David BENNETT (benn...@cs.uwa.oz.au) wrote:
: >In article <350fiv$b...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:

: >>You know, the proper English pronoun to use for a person of unknown
: >>gender is 'he'.

: This is not true. There are gender non specific pronouns. it, they, them
: person. In the case I was replying to they would have been appropriate.

The Oxford English Dictionary has (among other definitions) the following
usage of 'he':

'a person etc. of unspecified sex, esp. referring to one already named or
identified ("if anyone comes he will have to wait").'

Webster's dictionary on 'he':

'used in a generic sense or when the sex of the person is unspecified
<he that hath ears to hear, let him hear --Mt 11:15 (AV)> <one should do
the best he can>'

On 'they', however, only the following is to be found:

'often used with an indefinite third person singular
antecedent <everyone knew where they stood --E. L. Doctorow> <nobody has
to go to school if they don't want to --N.Y. Times>'

Therefore 'they' would not have been appropriate (unless you're going
to tell me that 'an admin' counts as an 'indefinite third person
singular antecedent').

: Use of he and other such sexist terms is to be discouraged. If you are


: wondering why, let me explain. You think in the language you write/say
: I hope you will agree. If you write say things in a sexist fashion,
: ie where male is 'normal' and female is an exception to the rule. You
: will also think this way. One of the best ways to stop being sexist
: is to stop thinking this way, a good start to this is to fix your
: language.

Sigh. Political correctness rears its ugly head again. Personally, I do
not think that by suppressing certain language constructs and by
enforcing this kind of Newspeak anything gets changed. In fact, I think
that you just suppress the problem instead of solving it. An example:
A handicapped person will not get any less crippled if you avoid calling
him (sic!) a cripple. In fact, some handicapped people _do_ mind if you
constantly avoid 'ugly' terms.

: So, fix your language.

I see no need.

Reimer Behrends

Reimer Behrends

unread,
Sep 15, 1994, 12:40:38 PM9/15/94
to
George Reese (bo...@winternet.com) wrote:
: Reimer Behrends (behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de) wrote:
: : You know, the proper English pronoun to use for a person of unknown
: : gender is 'he'.

: That's what the textbooks say, however, they are wrong. Best to


: phrase things without noting gender at all than to use any gender.

It's not as clear-cut as you put it. See the following excerpt from
the alt.usage.english FAQ:

--- begin quote ---
Gender-neutral pronouns
-----------------------

Singular "they" (as in "Everyone was blowing their nose"), which
has been used in English since the time of Chaucer, has gained
popularity recently as a result of the move towards gender-neutral
language. Prescriptive grammarians have traditionally (since 1795,
although the actual practice goes right back to 1200) prescribed
"Everyone was blowing his nose."

Proposals for other gender-neutral pronouns get made from time to
time, and some can be found in actual use ("sie" and "hir" are
the ones most frequently found on Usenet). Cecil Adams, in _Return
of the Straight Dope_ (Ballantine, 1994, ISBN 0-345-38111-4) says
that some eighty such terms have been proposed, the first of them in
the 1850s.

Discussions about gender-neutral pronouns tend to go round and
round and never reach a conclusion. Please refrain.
--- end quote ---

Btw, a flame war on grammatically correct vs. politically correct
usage raged on rec.games.frp.advocacy not long ago. But I don't
think we need to repeat that. ;-)

Reimer Behrends

Pekka Aakko

unread,
Sep 15, 1994, 5:23:17 PM9/15/94
to
In article <35a1p2$n...@ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de>,
Lars Duening <due...@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> wrote:

>In article <359qkp$h...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:
>>David BENNETT (benn...@cs.uwa.oz.au) wrote:
>>: >In article <350fiv$b...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:
>>
>>: >>You know, the proper English pronoun to use for a person of unknown
>>: >>gender is 'he'.
>>
>>: This is not true. There are gender non specific pronouns. it, they, them
>>: person. In the case I was replying to they would have been appropriate.

heh.. this subject changed into gender question. Mikey,
drop this to the right level! :) Burp yes more lapin kulta :)

Lars Duening

unread,
Sep 15, 1994, 1:54:42 PM9/15/94
to
In article <359qkp$h...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:
>David BENNETT (benn...@cs.uwa.oz.au) wrote:
>: >In article <350fiv$b...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:
>
>: >>You know, the proper English pronoun to use for a person of unknown
>: >>gender is 'he'.
>
>: This is not true. There are gender non specific pronouns. it, they, them
>: person. In the case I was replying to they would have been appropriate.

> [...]

>: Use of he and other such sexist terms is to be discouraged. If you are
>: wondering why, let me explain. You think in the language you write/say
>: I hope you will agree. If you write say things in a sexist fashion,
>: ie where male is 'normal' and female is an exception to the rule. You
>: will also think this way. One of the best ways to stop being sexist
>: is to stop thinking this way, a good start to this is to fix your
>: language.
>
> Sigh. Political correctness rears its ugly head again.

Bah, sexism, political correctness... Schnickschnack! It all paces
around the real fact which at least every 2.4.5-veteran should know:
that in core we all are furry creatures - and therefore 'it' is
perfectly right.

I'm now just unsure if that is contra- or covariance...
--
Lars "I'm a were-corvette!" Duening; due...@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de

Sven C. Dack

unread,
Sep 15, 1994, 10:15:18 PM9/15/94
to
Reimer> Btw, a flame war on grammatically correct vs. politically correct
Reimer> usage raged on rec.games.frp.advocacy not long ago. But I don't
Reimer> think we need to repeat that. ;-)

A: "What does 'pc' stand for if it doesn't mean 'pure crap'?"
B: "It's an abbreviation for 'politically correct'."
A: "Hmm. So it does mean 'pure crap'."
--
Sven C. Dack / GMD Darmstadt, Germany / da...@gmd.de
--
You speak of courage. Obviously you do not know the difference between
courage and foolhardiness. Always it is the brave ones who die, the
soldiers.
-- Kor, the Klingon Commander, "Errand of Mercy",
stardate 3201.7

Tim Hollebeek

unread,
Sep 16, 1994, 2:01:16 AM9/16/94
to
In article <359qkp$h...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:
>David BENNETT (benn...@cs.uwa.oz.au) wrote:
>: >In article <350fiv$b...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:
>
>: >>You know, the proper English pronoun to use for a person of unknown
>: >>gender is 'he'.
>
>: This is not true. There are gender non specific pronouns. it, they, them
>: person. In the case I was replying to they would have been appropriate.
>
>Therefore 'they' would not have been appropriate (unless you're going
>to tell me that 'an admin' counts as an 'indefinite third person
>singular antecedent').

Dispite being grammatically incorrect, "they" is what you will hear
95% of the time in that case, even in formal contexts.

>: So, fix your language.
>
>I see no need.
>

Suit yourself, but 'they' in this context will probably be considered
proper english grammar in the near future ...


Gay David

unread,
Sep 19, 1994, 3:08:54 AM9/19/94
to

I much prefer those who randomly choose between he and she when the gender
is unknown (and stick to the choice, obviously). It sounds better, and it
might even make you think ...

David Gay
dg...@di.epfl.ch

Ian Dean

unread,
Sep 21, 1994, 6:49:04 AM9/21/94
to
behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:

>: So, fix your language.

>I see no need.

> Reimer Behrends

While you have the dictionary open ...look up the word PEDANTIC and
think about it.

Ian

Reimer Behrends

unread,
Sep 22, 1994, 1:21:50 PM9/22/94
to
Ian Dean (icd...@giaeb.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
[...]
: While you have the dictionary open ...look up the word PEDANTIC and
: think about it.

My dearest Ian,

may I extend my sincerest thanks to you for this honest and heartfelt
criticism of yours. However, there is - I hate to say this - a small
catch. It may have escaped you (but heavens forbid, I don't blame you
for failing to notice the obvious - after all, almost everything is in
the genes nowadays) that I was just paying like with like. It may
therefore have occurred to you (much as I hate to offend your sensible
ears with such a vulgar phrase) that you are barking up the wrong tree.

(If you didn't get it yet: I accuse you of operating a double standard.)

Reimer Behrends

P.S.: At the risk of being called pedantic again: It is generally
considered a breach of netiquette and a waste of bandwidth to
quote a lengthy posting just to add a single sentence of your own.

Hall, Dana L.

unread,
Sep 25, 1994, 5:56:00 PM9/25/94
to

if you are one of those people who cannot stand to read off topic posts,
kill this immedatly. but it is important in todays society, so please
read it anyway.


In article <icdea1.780144544@giaeb>, icd...@giaeb.cc.monash.edu.au (Ian Dean) writes...


>behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:
>
>>David BENNETT (benn...@cs.uwa.oz.au) wrote:
>>: >In article <350fiv$b...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> behr...@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Reimer Behrends) writes:
>
>>: >>You know, the proper English pronoun to use for a person of unknown
>>: >>gender is 'he'.
>
>>: This is not true. There are gender non specific pronouns. it, they, them
>>: person. In the case I was replying to they would have been appropriate.
>
>
>

>>: Use of he and other such sexist terms is to be discouraged. If you are
>>: wondering why, let me explain. You think in the language you write/say
>>: I hope you will agree. If you write say things in a sexist fashion,
>>: ie where male is 'normal' and female is an exception to the rule. You
>>: will also think this way. One of the best ways to stop being sexist
>>: is to stop thinking this way, a good start to this is to fix your
>>: language.
>
>>Sigh. Political correctness rears its ugly head again. Personally, I do
>>not think that by suppressing certain language constructs and by
>>enforcing this kind of Newspeak anything gets changed. In fact, I think
>>that you just suppress the problem instead of solving it. An example:
>>A handicapped person will not get any less crippled if you avoid calling
>>him (sic!) a cripple. In fact, some handicapped people _do_ mind if you
>>constantly avoid 'ugly' terms.
>

the analogy is not accurect <sp>

>>: So, fix your language.
>
>>I see no need.
>
>> Reimer Behrends
>
>While you have the dictionary open ...look up the word PEDANTIC and
>think about it.
>
>Ian

hmmm, let me give you an example of how changing the language has changed
thought. the following passage is quoted without permission from
_Womanwords: A Dicionary of Words About Women_ be Jane Mills published
by Henery Holt and Company. <IBSN# 0-8050-2609-6>

"Woman if from Old English wifman, formed on wif, meaning woman, and man(n),
meaning humankind, thus giving the meaning adult female person. Waepman was
the male equivalent, meaning adult male person."

over time the male version was droped and the term that began as sex-less
took on to mean male first, female second. the female version remained
and took on the connatation of being the exception. a very effective method
of changing thought would be to reverse the trend of our ansestors and
reinstate a sex-less term such as humankind, using plural to denote unknown
gender peoples and other similar words... even if their use violates current
grammatical rules. with time, they will also change.

even though this has nothing to do with muds explictly, it does have a lot
to do with everyong who reads this group. flame me for being off topic if
it would make you feel better, but it will do no good. this is a topic i
feel strongly about and will interject my thoughts whenever i think they
are needed, and if even one person reads this and thinks about it, then my
time was not wasted. thanks..

-dana

Jay Herlihy

unread,
Sep 26, 1994, 9:14:35 AM9/26/94
to
st...@jane.uh.edu (Hall, Dana L.) writes:
>the analogy is not accurect <sp>
>
"accurate"

>"Woman if from Old English wifman, formed on wif, meaning woman, and man(n),
>meaning humankind, thus giving the meaning adult female person. Waepman was
>the male equivalent, meaning adult male person."
>
>over time the male version was droped and the term that began as sex-less
>took on to mean male first, female second. the female version remained
>and took on the connatation of being the exception. a very effective method
>of changing thought would be to reverse the trend of our ansestors and
>reinstate a sex-less term such as humankind, using plural to denote unknown
>gender peoples and other similar words... even if their use violates current
>grammatical rules. with time, they will also change.
>
>even though this has nothing to do with muds explictly, it does have a lot
>to do with everyong who reads this group. flame me for being off topic if
>it would make you feel better, but it will do no good. this is a topic i
>feel strongly about and will interject my thoughts whenever i think they
>are needed, and if even one person reads this and thinks about it, then my
>time was not wasted. thanks..
>
>-dana


Oh please...whiny politically correct feminazi beliefs are
really not needed here. Go elsewhere...
--
From the often twisted & deviant mind of: j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu
-Axl @)-->--- http://oz.plymouth.edu/~j_herlih/ j...@wiz.plymouth.edu
"In Christianity neither morality nor a...@csos.orst.edu
religion comes into contact with reality at any point." - Nietzsche

Jay Herlihy

unread,
Sep 26, 1994, 9:17:11 AM9/26/94
to
---<--(@ Axl's (In)Complete List of DikuMUDs v2.5 @)-->---
^^^ ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^

24th September `94


This file can also be found thru http. See below for address.

Total = 93
-----

Name Address Port Code Base #lvs #class #race
---- ------- ---- --------- ---- ------ -----
AbsolutMUD b63740.cwru.edu 4000 Circle 50 4 --
129.22.284.252
AbyssII 129.89.68.89 4000 original 20 4 5
?
AlexMUD mud.stacken.kth.se 4000 original 20 4 --
130.237.234.17
Apocalypse IV sapphire.geo.wvu.edu 4000 original 40 10 7
157.182.168.20
Arctic hobbes.linfield.edu 2700 base 30 8 8
192.147.171.2
Armageddon % thrash.isca.uiowa.edu 4444 original -- 10/12 5
134.48.4.162
Austin aufs.imv.aau.dk 4000 original 70 4 --
129.142.28.2
Carnage ocrist.digital.ufl.edu 4000 original 60 -- 6
128.227.133.214
ChaosMud chaos.bga.com 4000 original 35 8/10 8(16)
198.3.118.12
Chomestoru mccool.cbi.msstate.edu 4000 ? 13
130.18.104.2

Copper 3 scooter.denver.colorado.edu 4000 base <temp closed>
132.194.30.9
Conch Mud aann.tyrell.net 4000 Merc 60 4 --
198.175.8.3
Dark Castle jive.rahul.net 6666 original 50 8 6
192.160.13.4
Dark Shadow jericho.connected.com 2550 original 20 7/10 8
162.148.251.252
Death's Domain eros.ece.miami.edu 9000 original 25 4(8) 12
192.88.124.27
Diku II mud.stacken.kth.se 4242 Diku II 100 4 5
130.237.234.17
D.L.L. trident.ee.fit.edu 9000 Merc 50 4 4
163.118.30.14
DragonMUD 2 eve.assumption.edu 5000 ROM 4 6
192.80.61.5
Dutch Mountains jurix.rechten.rug.nl 9000 Merc 40 7
129.125.134.4
Edge of Darkness edge.uccs.edu 2001 Sequent 50 5 8
128.198.1.70


Empire einstein.physics.drexel.edu 4000 original 30 5 5/12
129.25.1.120
Ensem Mud watt.ensem.u-nancy.fr 4000 Circle 30 5(7) 5
?
Farside farside.atinc.com 3000 ?
198.138.35.199
FieryMud mud.eushc.org 4000 Copper 99 8 --
163.246.5.109
Final Challenge mud.indirect.com 4000 Merc 30 4~ 10
165.247.1.5
Forbidden Lands queen.mcs.drexel.edu 4000 Silly 50 8 6
129.25.7.100
FredMUD fred.indstate.edu 2150 original 78 --
139.102.12.14
Generic MUD matrix.mit.edu 4000 original 30 4~ --
18.80.1.97
G.O.D. Mud cyberspace.com 4000 Circle 30 3
199.2.48.11
GrimneMUD gytje.pvv.unit.no 4000 original 50 4 --
129.241.36.226

HEFTmud muleshoe.cs.utexas.edu 2150 original 40 4 6
128.83.138.120
HelgaMUD helga13.acc.virginia.edu 4000
128.143.24.23
Hercules MUD sunshine.eushc.org 3000 Copper 40 4 --
163.246.32.110
HexOnyx Mud marble.bu.edu 4000 Circle 70 4~ 10
128.197.10.75
Hidden Worlds cns.cscns.com 4000 Merc 30 4 --
192.156.196.1
Highlands jedi.cis.temple.edu 9001 Merc 4
129.32.32.70
HOLOmud photobooks.gatech.edu 7777 Circle 36 0 4
128.61.44.21
HypeNet falcon.depaul.edu 4000 original 30 4 --
140.192.1.10
Infinity 4000 Circle 30 10
144.35.74.70
Imperial supergirl.cs.hut.fi 6969 original 50 4 5
130.233.40.52

JediMUD <site pending> 4000 original 30 9 --

Jedi 2 seahag.jpl.nasa.gov 4000 original 30 9 --
?
KallistiMud mud.csos.orst.edu 4000 original 50 4/6 7
128.193.40.23
KAOS sg25.aud.temple.edu 4000 Silly 50 32 --
129.32.66.7
Last Outpost kimiyo.summer.hawaii.edu 4000 original 20 4~ 5
128.171.137.195
LegendMUD moraff.austin.com 9999 original 50 * 1
198.3.118.108
Legends of Winds ccsun44.csie.nctu.edu.tw 4040 Merc 30 5 7
140.113.17.168
MUME lbdsun4.epfl.ch 4242 original 100 4~ 6
128.178.77.5
Mayhem thrash.isca.uiowa.edu 1234 ? 50 7 9
134.48.4.162
Meat Mud sneezy.cc.utexas.edu 2800 Merc 50 4 --
128.83.135.8

Medievia intense.netaxs.com 4000 Merc 140 4 --
192.204.4.36
MooseHead Sled mud.eskimo.com 4000 ROM 60 4~ 5
162.148.13.44
Mozart % mud.mcs.com 4500 original 100 22 8
192.60.127.90
Mud Dry eichstatt.cs.csbsju.edu 4000 Circle 30 4 --
152.65.167.12
Mud Lite next1.haas.berkeley.edu 4001 Merc 30 4 --
128.32.162.100
Mudde Pathetique flysex.berkeley.edu 2999 original 20 4 --
128.32.128.36
Mystic Adventure miniac.etu.gel.ulaval.ca 4000 Merc 100 16 8
132.203.14.100
NA-Viemud mud.cs.odu.edu 4000 original 30 4~/8 --/7
128.82.6.145
NexusMUD didec3.epfl.ch 4000
128.178.164.5
N. Crossroads ugsparc13.eecg.utoronto.ca 9000 original 50 4~ 6
128.100.13.63

OpalMUD opal.cs.virginia.edu 4000
128.143.60.14
Perilous Realms pr.mese.com 23 original 500 33 12
155.229.1.4
Phantazm dopey.fpa.com 4000 Circle 30 4 --
198.242.217.1
PKmud kennedy.ecn.uoknor.edu 5000 original -- 10 --
129.15.24.14
PsychoMUD chaos.bsu.edu 4355 original ?
147.226.53.28
QUEST! steinmetz.ee.utulsa.edu 1701 original 30 4 5
129.244.59.34
Realms of Despair mud.compulink.com 4000 Merc 50 6 5
199.166.254.1
Realm of Magic p107.informatik.uni-bremen.de Circle 40 4 --
134.102.216.8 4000
Realm of Seduction eden.rutgers.edu 1234 Merc ?
128.6.7.209
Renegade Outpost outpost.hsc.unt.edu 9999 Silly 50 8~ 6
129.120.104.19

Rip's Quest kennedy.ecn.uoknor.edu 5500 original 30 10 8/16
129.15.24.14
RockyMud hermes.dna.mci.com 4000 Silly 50 6~ 5
166.41.48.146
RoninMUD ronin.bcsh.uh.edu 5000 ? 30 10 --
129.7.2.127
Shadowdale dale.hsc.unt.edu 7777 Silly 50 10~ 10
129.120.107.70
Silicon Realms sampan.ee.fit.edu 4000 ?
163.119.30.9
SillyMud stone.cis.ufl.edu 4000 base 50 6~ 14
128.227.100.197
Sloth MUD mercury.cs.ukans.edu 6101 original 40 4~ --
129.237.80.13
SneezyMUD sprinkle.cray.com 7900 Silly 50 8~ 6
128.162.84.19
Sojourn (beta) sojourn.cem.msu.edu 9999 Sequent 50 16 11
35.8.25.23
StackMUD mud.stacken.kth.se 8000 Merc 30 4 7
130.237.234.17

Stick in the MUD ugsparc11.eecg.toronto.edu 9000 Merc 50 4(10) 6(10)
128.100.13.61
StrangeMUD sleepy.cc.utexas.edu 9332 Circle
128.83.135.5
StrikeNet falcon.depaul.edu 4000 ? 30 4 --
140.192.1.7
Tazmania ukko.rowan.edu 5000 Circle ?
150.250.10.216
Tempered Steel rush.cc.edu 4000 ?
140.104.4.169
Tiac Mud ?
199.0.65.25 9999 or 4321
Torment torment.isca.uiowa.edu 4000 original 50 ~ 6
128.255.21.235
The Final Level huey.ee.cua.edu 7777 ? 30 10 13
136.242.140.31
The Land nora.gih.no 4000 original 25 5 5
128.39.140.150

The Two Kingdoms soma.salk.edu 4000 ?
192.31.153.157
ThunderDome tdome.montana.com 5555 Circle 30 9 --
199.2.139.3
VegoMud screech.alfred.edu 4000 Merc ?
149.84.33.3

notes:
-----
If you get a 'connection refused' sometimes you can connect to
the port above or below the listed one. Not all muds do this, but
hey, it's worth a shot. :)

- A % denotes a mud you need to have your character approved by
the admin (some are online, some off) before you may play there.

- A ~ denotes a mud that allows multi-classing.

- A ? is unknown info. A -- means zero or none.

- A * denotes a mud with no character classes.

'base' - all of these are based off of the first gamma0.0
release, but have had so much rewriting/redoing that it's now exists
by iteslf. Current ones recognized are: Copper, Sequent, Merc, Silly,
Circle, ROM, and DikuII. I'll use 'original' (I can't think of anything
better) to denote a mud that modified the original code for itself
only.

A 5/7 under the class or race column would mean that the mud
has 5 working classes or races, and will have another 2 soon
implemented.

A 5(10) would mean the mud has 5 classes available to new
players, and another 5 special classes available later on.

This is titled the "InComplete" list because I do not claim to
list all the Dikus out there. Some don't want to be listed, others I
do not know of. If you have anything to contribute...new muds, want
yours taken off, corrections, suggestions, etc...mail to me directly.
If you can 'fill in the blanks' on this list that'd be great. :)

Joan Harvey

unread,
Sep 26, 1994, 9:47:40 PM9/26/94
to
Jay Herlihy (j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu) wrote:

: st...@jane.uh.edu (Hall, Dana L.) writes:
: >the analogy is not accurect <sp>
: >
: "accurate"

: >"Woman if from Old English wifman, formed on wif, meaning woman, and man(n),
: >meaning humankind, thus giving the meaning adult female person. Waepman was
: >the male equivalent, meaning adult male person."
: >
: >over time the male version was droped and the term that began as sex-less
: >took on to mean male first, female second. the female version remained
: >and took on the connatation of being the exception. a very effective method
: >of changing thought would be to reverse the trend of our ansestors and
: >reinstate a sex-less term such as humankind, using plural to denote unknown
: >gender peoples and other similar words... even if their use violates current
: >grammatical rules. with time, they will also change.
: >
: >even though this has nothing to do with muds explictly, it does have a lot
: >to do with everyong who reads this group. flame me for being off topic if
: >it would make you feel better, but it will do no good. this is a topic i
: >feel strongly about and will interject my thoughts whenever i think they
: >are needed, and if even one person reads this and thinks about it, then my
: >time was not wasted. thanks..
: >
: >-dana


: Oh please...whiny politically correct feminazi beliefs are
: really not needed here. Go elsewhere...

Oh, be quiet, Limbaugh boy.

BTW, 'they' is not acceptable to use as a singular genderless
person. It's plural, despite the way people frequently use it.
--
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| jxh...@pitt.edu jxh...@pitt.edu jxh...@pitt.edu |
| "With great power comes great responsibility."-Peter Parker |
| "The biggest fool is the one who thinks he knows it all."-Piers Anthony|
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/

George Reese

unread,
Sep 26, 1994, 10:19:59 PM9/26/94
to
Jay Herlihy (j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu) wrote:
: Oh please...whiny politically correct feminazi beliefs are

: really not needed here. Go elsewhere...

Err, do you have a mind or is that some nasty reflex you have there?

Dana gave a very reasoned a thoughtful post. Agree with it or not,
she did nothing more than that. Your post was just a pile of crap.

Kristenlee Sadowski

unread,
Sep 27, 1994, 2:34:09 PM9/27/94
to
Some points to keep in mind:

1) Culture. In many cultures, the masculine is dominant not because the
woman is weak but merely because...well because it's a primarily 'male'
culture - while I like to think that Europe has the same opportunities
as America for minorities, the responses I see from those in Finland, at
least, show that women aren't thought all that highly of. If you can't
get someone to respect the person - you certainly aren't get them to use
correct language.

2) The new trend, I see, is using "she" as the typical "joe example".
It's all very nice, saying, "The wizard would normally cast a fireball
if she had it memorized." but I fail to see how this will rectify the
point. Now we've just gone in the opposite direction, and it's all
"she" instead of he. Effective? I don't know about that. While
I'm sure only my generation will blink when they see "she" and assume
it's in reference to a particular female even though it's an example
(due to our previous usage of "he" as an example), future generations
won't.

Instead, they'll be used to seeing "she" in all the examples. I don't
see how this makes things better or worse.

And for goodness sake, anyone who thinks that switching on and off
between he and she in examples rectifies the gender question is
making a horrible mistake, and giving their readers a headache.

Mike

Hall, Dana L. (st...@jane.uh.edu) wrote:

: if you are one of those people who cannot stand to read off topic posts,

Niilo Neuvo

unread,
Sep 28, 1994, 5:14:45 AM9/28/94
to
ksad...@csws8.ic.sunysb.edu (Kristenlee Sadowski) writes:
> Some points to keep in mind:
>
> 1) Culture. In many cultures, the masculine is dominant not because the
> woman is weak but merely because...well because it's a primarily 'male'
> culture - while I like to think that Europe has the same opportunities
> as America for minorities, the responses I see from those in Finland, at
> least, show that women aren't thought all that highly of.

The finnish language does not have masculine or feminine words (there
is no he/she, just one word for it 'hän', there also aren't any
suffixes/prefixes to words that would indicate the gender). There is
no way you can figure out if a person is female or male. This goes
for speech and written text.

Naturally there are some words that have the word meaning 'man' in it,
as in 'workman'. But this is a very common problem with every
language that I have studied.

I would like to see your study about sexual unequality in Finland. I
have always thought that Finland has always been way ahead of most
other countries in the world in this matter (second country in the
world to allow women to wote, etc).

++Anipa

Leon Quiding

unread,
Sep 28, 1994, 9:52:46 AM9/28/94
to
In article <1994Sep28.0...@Princeton.EDU>,
t...@franck.Princeton.EDU (Tim Hollebeek) wrote:

> Wow. Someone who quotes Nietzsche accusing someone else of being a
> Nazi. What rich irony.
>
> -Beek
Not strictly true depending on your stance towards Nietzsche is
there are people who can argue convincingly that the young german had
idealistic dreams about what the nazi party proported to be .In fact the
good of the system as shown in earily south american history. Not
awareee of the people behind the machine .
THE MACHINE LIVES

______________________________________________________________________________
JamesWebb,10WillowAveBirkenheadAuckland,NZ.Ph+64941817413.UniversityOfAuckland
:Ph+6493737599x7466,7693....@cs.aukuni.ac.nz,http://cs.aukuni.ac.nz/~jweb01

Jamieson Norrish

unread,
Sep 29, 1994, 7:31:16 AM9/29/94
to
In article <369oj1$m...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu>
ksad...@csws8.ic.sunysb.edu (Kristenlee Sadowski) writes:

1) Culture. In many cultures, the masculine is dominant not
because the woman is weak but merely because...well because it's a
primarily 'male' culture - while I like to think that Europe has

the same opportunities as America for minorities...

Hold on here. Firstly, women are not a minority. Secondly, surely a
good way of changing attitudes is by kicking up a fuss and making
people at least realise that there is an issue here at all. Then
things will change for the better.

2) The new trend, I see, is using "she" as the typical "joe
example".

This is certainly not universal, and I think it should be avoided.
There are other, better solutions, which do not involve any
gender-specific language/words.

Jamie

George Reese

unread,
Sep 28, 1994, 7:43:52 PM9/28/94