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new project + roleplaying in muds

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my...@my-dejanews.com

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Jul 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/27/98
to
If anyones interested I am working on a new project and would welcome ideas
on ways to encourage role playing. There'll be a strong political theme to
the mud, with emphasis on team work and helping your clan/guild expand.
Obviously I don't want the code to dominate the players, but the addition of
facilities which would help encourage clan/inter-clan politics, etc. can only
help create a better role playing environment. There will be no experience
full stop. Skills and stuff will get better as you use them or do research
on how to use them etc., and the more exercise you do, the fitter you'll
become. So the only reason you'd go out killing "monsters" would be to
practice your sword skills on a proper oponent. This means real power will
come from your political power and standing within your clan.

Of course, occasionally it'll be necessary to pick up your sword and defend
your home from an invading band of goblins, or to hunt down a spy from one of
the other guilds.

I won't give away anything else, so that I don't inhibit your thinking. If
you have any ideas/concepts which could help me then please mail away!

Oh, the map will be user editable, so if you want to go and build a house, get
the tools, and build away.

Regards,

Chris

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Terrence Reidley

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Jul 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/28/98
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I also was thinking of somethign similiar, with Territory owned by
Clan's etc and getting income from that territory, Where each piece of
land generates it's own income depending on many factor's.. Like If
there was a war around lower income etc etc..

A major way I've tried to implement RP, is not making a PC when they
die automaticly being trans'd to the Temple, or Clan Temple, they'd
have to have their corpse Recovered by someone else or a piece of corpse
recovered.. And takin it back to the Temple/Clan temple for a little
ceremony.. This would make peopel have to work together, so the guy
runnin aroudn Pkilling everythign woudl soon find himself with no
friends and no-one to pick up his corpse...

I have a tonne more, just can't think at the moment, Just woke up...

Terrence Reidley

my...@my-dejanews.com

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Jul 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/29/98
to
Hmmmm.... I was acutally thinking about making death permanent, but with ways
of escaping from actually being killed. I still need to think about that a
lot more, but certainly the way death is treated is central to players
attitudes towards killing and hence to roleplaying. If death is treated
lightly then it will happen all the time which would probably inhibit
roleplaying as death should be the last resort as it wouldn't always further
your cause.

I'm also toying with the idea of building this new mud around an experimental
engine I wrote a while back which represented the map in a style similar to
the old moria and nethack games using ascii graphics to show a 2D map of the
players location. You could then jump in and out of command mode and
movement mode so you can use the keypad to move around quickly and single key
presses to open doors and such like, and then enter complex commands like
chanting out the appropriate syllables for a spell while holding the correct
spell components. If lag wasn't a problem and a good enough interface could
be built then I think it would work very well, and allow for more complicated
geographical settings, while retaining the command line and optional area
descriptions for certain rooms etc (appearing in a text box above the map) to
enhance the role playing side of the game. I'd be very interested in what
people think of this, as while I know it'd work very well for a hack'n'slash
mud, I'm not sure it would work quite so well for role playing.

I'd also probably write a java client which would cut down on net traffic by
storing more information locally (like long room descriptions) and by
compressing map information so that long cursor escape sequences don't need
to be sent all the time. It runs very smoothly locally under telnet, but I
haven't tried it over the net yet although I imagine lag would be a problem.

Although the more I think about it, the worse I think it'd be for a role
playing environment where descriptions are more important than 2D space.
Then again the flexibilty of the moria like map for allowing real time
editing by all players of the environment around them could open up many
interesting possibilities.

Anyway, it'd start off with three human 'cities', each having their own self
imposed and enforced political structure, with anyone murdering being hunded
down and tried and put to death if guilty etc. There'd also be a band or
several bands of outcasts, who don't live in any of the cities and instead
live in the wilderness. They may make alliances with one of the cities so
that in exchange for food and weapons they make regular attacks on one of the
other cities, etc.

The environment around these cities would be very hostile, and mobs would
behave more like real animals where they'd have motivations (current hunger,
hit points, thirst, curiosity, aggression, etc factors) and places they like
and dislike going (maybe someone attacked them in a certain grove and while
they survived they were badly hurt and are now scared of that area) but
aren't tied to a particular area. They'd also be capable of breeding, thus
increasing their numbers, and of being killed off outright, never to be seen
on the face of the world again. So if there was a particularly nasty tribe
of goblins living near one of the cities which was proving to be a major
headache to the inhabitants, they could mount a full scale assault and
permanently destroy the goblin tribe.

"Combat" will also be heavily stylised so that while a tough warrior could
kill several goblins quite easily, if a couple of lucky hits from the goblins
get through, then the warrior may be hurt enough so that he's not as
effective in combat, and the goblins could then swamp him in shear numbers.
Thus team efforts, hence group interaction, hence roleplaying, can be
encouraged as while they may hurt one warrior, the other one could fend them
off while the injurred warrior pulls out his precious potion of healing
before joining in again.

I think the biggest thing I want to achieve is having no set way of being the
best at anything. I want all the characters to be different in every way.
From computer generated descriptions based on what someone looks like, what
they're wearing etc. through to the choices people make about how it's best
to gain power.

Please send as much feedback to me as possible so I can design as much as
possible before even sitting down at my keyboard. The biggest problem I can
see with my plans is the cpu time it's going to eat on the server. But
hopefully by the time it's finished i'll have my own computer on the net so I
won't have to worry about cpu hogging or using too much ram. I want every
mob to be a seperate entity, permanently active (although they'll need to
sleep - convieniently halving cpu time, and they can do repetative actions
like eating for long periods). I hope I can make it all work!

Anyways, send all ideas to me or the list. I'll try and check in tomorrow and
see what you've sent.

Chris


In article <35BCEE82...@tkar.com>,

Richard Woolcock

unread,
Jul 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/29/98
to
Replying mainly comments about my mud, because it's very similiar to what
you are planning.

my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Hmmmm.... I was acutally thinking about making death permanent, but with ways
> of escaping from actually being killed. I still need to think about that a
> lot more, but certainly the way death is treated is central to players
> attitudes towards killing and hence to roleplaying. If death is treated
> lightly then it will happen all the time which would probably inhibit
> roleplaying as death should be the last resort as it wouldn't always further
> your cause.

I use a permanent body-death system; if you die, your soul lives on (OOC name,
total exp, authorisation, etc) but you are required to create a new body and
go around re-learning skills from other players (although you do at least start
with a % of your soul's experience points with which to train up skills/stats).

> I'm also toying with the idea of building this new mud around an experimental
> engine I wrote a while back which represented the map in a style similar to
> the old moria and nethack games using ascii graphics to show a 2D map of the
> players location. You could then jump in and out of command mode and
> movement mode so you can use the keypad to move around quickly and single key
> presses to open doors and such like, and then enter complex commands like
> chanting out the appropriate syllables for a spell while holding the correct
> spell components. If lag wasn't a problem and a good enough interface could
> be built then I think it would work very well, and allow for more complicated
> geographical settings, while retaining the command line and optional area
> descriptions for certain rooms etc (appearing in a text box above the map) to
> enhance the role playing side of the game. I'd be very interested in what
> people think of this, as while I know it'd work very well for a hack'n'slash
> mud, I'm not sure it would work quite so well for role playing.

Interesting - although it might well end up like a text-based 'gauntlet' style
game if you're not careful. I have an ascii-map option, but it only shows the
surrounding few rooms (no mobs or objects).

> I'd also probably write a java client which would cut down on net traffic by
> storing more information locally (like long room descriptions) and by
> compressing map information so that long cursor escape sequences don't need
> to be sent all the time. It runs very smoothly locally under telnet, but I
> haven't tried it over the net yet although I imagine lag would be a problem.
>
> Although the more I think about it, the worse I think it'd be for a role
> playing environment where descriptions are more important than 2D space.
> Then again the flexibilty of the moria like map for allowing real time
> editing by all players of the environment around them could open up many
> interesting possibilities.

You could still allow players to modify their environment - the problem is
trying to cater for room descriptions. The room description should update
itself to reflect the fact that the forest has been chopped down, that the
plains have been dug up, and so on. I'm still having trouble trying to get
my mud to create 'artistic' rather than simply 'accurate' room descriptions,
but if you stuck purely to a map you shouldn't have much trouble (this would
still leave you wiht the roleplaying problem you mentioned, however).

> Anyway, it'd start off with three human 'cities', each having their own self
> imposed and enforced political structure, with anyone murdering being hunded
> down and tried and put to death if guilty etc. There'd also be a band or
> several bands of outcasts, who don't live in any of the cities and instead
> live in the wilderness. They may make alliances with one of the cities so
> that in exchange for food and weapons they make regular attacks on one of the
> other cities, etc.
>
> The environment around these cities would be very hostile, and mobs would
> behave more like real animals where they'd have motivations (current hunger,
> hit points, thirst, curiosity, aggression, etc factors) and places they like
> and dislike going (maybe someone attacked them in a certain grove and while
> they survived they were badly hurt and are now scared of that area) but
> aren't tied to a particular area. They'd also be capable of breeding, thus
> increasing their numbers, and of being killed off outright, never to be seen
> on the face of the world again. So if there was a particularly nasty tribe
> of goblins living near one of the cities which was proving to be a major
> headache to the inhabitants, they could mount a full scale assault and
> permanently destroy the goblin tribe.

This is *very* difficult to balance correctly. How do you ensure that the
goblins don't get wiped out within a couple of hours by GoPers? How do you
ensure that the goblins themselves don't destroy the cities?

> "Combat" will also be heavily stylised so that while a tough warrior could
> kill several goblins quite easily, if a couple of lucky hits from the goblins
> get through, then the warrior may be hurt enough so that he's not as
> effective in combat, and the goblins could then swamp him in shear numbers.
> Thus team efforts, hence group interaction, hence roleplaying, can be
> encouraged as while they may hurt one warrior, the other one could fend them
> off while the injurred warrior pulls out his precious potion of healing
> before joining in again.

I've still not finished my combat system, but I'm trying to create something
similar to what you describe. So far my combat system allows players to split
their combat 'dice' between attack, parry and dodge. Every quarter of a second
each player gets an extra dice (up to their maximum according to fighting
ability). Upon the ATTACK dice reaching a certain point (specified by the
player), they begin to execute an attack (just a standard attack for now, although
I intend to add a huge range of different types). The attack takes an amount of
time to connect depending on various aspects of the fighter, and the target gets
a parry or dodge (whichever is higher - although if you are unarmed you can only
parry an unarmed attack). Most people pump all of their dice into attack and
either parry or dodge - there is no point having both unless you are fighting a
group (or a *very* fast attacker - or you've customised your dice to only refill
your attack pool). If you attempt to kick someone, it will use however many
dice you currently have spare in your attack pool (so people who kick a lot might
for example choose to have 5 attack dice, and use 4 per attack - meaning that
they always have at least 1 die spare for a kick - worthwhile if your opponent
is concentrating on one form of defence and pumps their entire defence pool into
each parry/dodge). In addition to this, wound penalties subtract directly from
your total fighting dice, there are 120 different fighting stances which boost
various areas of skill, and weapons with different difficulties to hit and bonus
damage dice, making combat a little more interesting than most diku's. Bare in
mind that the characters ability in combat is the combination of 4 attributes
and 2 abilities (of which a starting character can match most long-term characters),
which means that the results of combat are much more in the hands of the players
rather than the characters.

> I think the biggest thing I want to achieve is having no set way of being the
> best at anything. I want all the characters to be different in every way.

I've tried to have no set way of being the best at EVERYTHING rather than
anything - players can choose to max out in a few areas, but they'll suffer
when it comes to other areas.

The difficulty is in doing it without setting artificial restraints. My players
have an overall cap within each type of attribute and ability, but that's almost
as unrealistic as level-based equipment in terms of it's method of limitation.

> From computer generated descriptions based on what someone looks like, what
> they're wearing etc. through to the choices people make about how it's best
> to gain power.

I have computer generated descriptions, and they work out quite well IMO. A
particularly nice advantage of this system is that if a player transforms into
a wolf (for example), his/her description is altered to reflect the new form.
Equally, mobs are given the same sorts of descriptions as players, blurring
the different significantly - which has unfortunately resulted in two newbies
throwing themselves onto my blade so far, thinking I was a mob *sigh*.

> Please send as much feedback to me as possible so I can design as much as
> possible before even sitting down at my keyboard. The biggest problem I can
> see with my plans is the cpu time it's going to eat on the server. But
> hopefully by the time it's finished i'll have my own computer on the net so I
> won't have to worry about cpu hogging or using too much ram. I want every
> mob to be a seperate entity, permanently active (although they'll need to
> sleep - convieniently halving cpu time, and they can do repetative actions
> like eating for long periods). I hope I can make it all work!

I think it's a great idea (but then I'm trying to do exactly the same thing).
I don't think you'll have much trouble with cpu usage, except possibly for the
mobs - but there are many ways to get around this.

> Anyways, send all ideas to me or the list. I'll try and check in tomorrow and
> see what you've sent.

KaVir.

Richard Woolcock

unread,
Jul 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/29/98
to
Richard Woolcock wrote:
>
> Replying mainly comments about my mud, because it's very similiar to what
> you are planning.

I might as well flame myself before someone else does it for me.

Apparently my grammar is as poor as my spelling ;)

KaVir

Terrence Reidley

unread,
Jul 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/30/98
to
I am WAY WAY WAY WAY Interested... I'd even put my own Machine up for
Hosting it.. *drools* It sounds like you haven't just woken up and
said, Oh hey.. I'm goign to build a new style of MUD today etc..

Can you keep us informed on any developments etc? Even possibly
Developing your Own style and posting the Source for others to Develop
as well..

But I think you get my point, I WANT IN!!!!

Terrence Reidley

<BIG SNIP>

my...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Jul 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/30/98
to
In article <35BFEE...@nospam.dial.pipex.com>,
Richard Woolcock <Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote:

> Replying mainly comments about my mud, because it's very similiar to what
> you are planning.

:) Appology accepted about the grammar :) Mine's worse though.

> my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> I use a permanent body-death system; if you die, your soul lives on (OOC name,
> total exp, authorisation, etc) but you are required to create a new body and
> go around re-learning skills from other players (although you do at least
start
> with a % of your soul's experience points with which to train up
skills/stats).

Certainly a good halfway house, but there's still the roleplaying problem of
players holding a grudge on their killer and wanting to get revenge. Which
isn't really very good roleplaying. All things considered. But as far as I
can see, there isn't a solution to that without imposing very artificial
constraints on not letting the player kill their murderer at all. And that's
not acceptable really.

> > [big snip of stuff I wrote]

> Interesting - although it might well end up like a text-based 'gauntlet' style
> game if you're not careful. I have an ascii-map option, but it only shows the
> surrounding few rooms (no mobs or objects).

That's my biggest fear. While it may make a fun game, it'd hardly have depth
of play or lastability, etc. So I'd rather make a mud than a networked
text-based gauntlet.

I don't suppose just decreasing the frequency of mobs and increasing how tough
they are would help?

Hopefully by increasing the complexity of the environment, and actively
encouraging political rather than physical power, then it won't end up just
another hack'n'slash gauntlet game.

> > [Snip]


> > Although the more I think about it, the worse I think it'd be for a role
> > playing environment where descriptions are more important than 2D space.
> > Then again the flexibilty of the moria like map for allowing real time
> > editing by all players of the environment around them could open up many
> > interesting possibilities.
>
> You could still allow players to modify their environment - the problem is
> trying to cater for room descriptions. The room description should update
> itself to reflect the fact that the forest has been chopped down, that the
> plains have been dug up, and so on. I'm still having trouble trying to get
> my mud to create 'artistic' rather than simply 'accurate' room descriptions,
> but if you stuck purely to a map you shouldn't have much trouble (this would
> still leave you wiht the roleplaying problem you mentioned, however).

In my experience of computers they're much better at being 'accurate' than
'artistic' which is where the map would come into it's own. You could cast
an earthquake spell, dislodging some rocks and permanently block off a
corridor, or fill in the corner of a room. Getting a computer to alter a
room description to reflect that would be next to impossible.

> > Anyway, it'd start off with three human 'cities', each having their own self
> > imposed and enforced political structure, with anyone murdering being hunded
> > down and tried and put to death if guilty etc. There'd also be a band or
> > several bands of outcasts, who don't live in any of the cities and instead
> > live in the wilderness. They may make alliances with one of the cities so
> > that in exchange for food and weapons they make regular attacks on one of
the
> > other cities, etc.
> >
> > The environment around these cities would be very hostile, and mobs would
> > behave more like real animals where they'd have motivations (current hunger,
> > hit points, thirst, curiosity, aggression, etc factors) and places they like
> > and dislike going (maybe someone attacked them in a certain grove and while
> > they survived they were badly hurt and are now scared of that area) but
> > aren't tied to a particular area. They'd also be capable of breeding, thus
> > increasing their numbers, and of being killed off outright, never to be seen
> > on the face of the world again. So if there was a particularly nasty tribe
> > of goblins living near one of the cities which was proving to be a major
> > headache to the inhabitants, they could mount a full scale assault and
> > permanently destroy the goblin tribe.
>
> This is *very* difficult to balance correctly. How do you ensure that the
> goblins don't get wiped out within a couple of hours by GoPers? How do you
> ensure that the goblins themselves don't destroy the cities?

A big problem. But what if the goblins do destroy one of the cities? That
just increases inter-city role playing potential. And if someone manages to
destroy the goblins within a couple of hours (something I hope to prevent in
the combat engine) then so be it. But what if a couple of the goblins
survive, and form a new and unknown goblin city.

I hope to have enough flexibility in the system to have a virtual world,
rather than a series of rooms which reset every 15 minutes. It's going to be
hard though, and may fail.

Very interesting ideas. The combat system I was designing takes some of the
better ideas from the, albeit unfinished and imbalanced, Dark Heart combat
engine. Every limb on the body is treated independantly, and can attack at
different rates, (parrying, dodging etc slows down the time before you can
next attack). It worked on a points based system, where it takes so many
points to attack, so many to block etc. Every round every limb would gain x
number of points based on the characters skills, abilities, and attributes.
When they had enough to attack, that limb would pay it's x number of points
and then make an attack roll (i want to devise a new attack roll system,
rather than rely on a tweaked AD&D system like every other mud). If it gets
a hit in, then your oponent has a chance to parry or dodge your attack and
pay the appropriate points. Failing that then damage is dealt out as usual.
On very good attack rolls you had a chance to cut off a limb from your
opponent etc.

The combat system also took into account the size of weapons, size of the two
combatants, and the current distance between them. For example if a knight
was to attack a dragon using a sword and a dagger as his two weapons, then
the dragon could us it's size to drive him back out of attacking distance,
and attack him from range. However if the knight managed to dodge the
dragons attack he could charge up close to the dragon before it had chance to
back away. At such close quarters the dragon would find it hard to attack the
night and maneuver to dodge attacks and the knight would stand a chance
(until it breathed or took off). Again, if two knights with swords and
daggers were to attack, then while standing off and attacking from a distance
using the swords they couldn't reach their opponent with the daggers, they
could still use these second weapons to parry incomming sword blows.

It all got hideously over complicated and never quite worked right, but if
planned properly it **could** work well.


> > I think the biggest thing I want to achieve is having no set way of being
the
> > best at anything. I want all the characters to be different in every way.
>
> I've tried to have no set way of being the best at EVERYTHING rather than
> anything - players can choose to max out in a few areas, but they'll suffer
> when it comes to other areas.
>
> The difficulty is in doing it without setting artificial restraints. My
players
> have an overall cap within each type of attribute and ability, but that's
almost
> as unrealistic as level-based equipment in terms of it's method of limitation.

Yeah, I misphrased that. I meant everything, not anything. Although it
would be good if you could make some skills so complicated that noone would
ever truely master every aspect of them. Hmmmm.... that gives me an idea.
I'll get back to you on that.


> > From computer generated descriptions based on what someone looks like, what
> > they're wearing etc. through to the choices people make about how it's best
> > to gain power.
>
> I have computer generated descriptions, and they work out quite well IMO. A
> particularly nice advantage of this system is that if a player transforms into
> a wolf (for example), his/her description is altered to reflect the new form.
> Equally, mobs are given the same sorts of descriptions as players, blurring
> the different significantly - which has unfortunately resulted in two newbies
> throwing themselves onto my blade so far, thinking I was a mob *sigh*.

Heh. That's the plan (not the newbie killing bit though :)

I was also trying to think of ways to increase the scope for this by not
automatically assigning names to people. Thus blurring mobs and players even
more, and making disguising yourself all the more fun. Players could then
assign names to certain descriptions, and the computer could make checks to
see if someones appearance is close enough to fool them as to who they were.
That needs a lot more thought though (and a hell of a large number of
combinations of descriptions making up what someone looks like).

> > [Snip]

> [Snip]

> > Anyways, send all ideas to me or the list. I'll try and check in tomorrow
and
> > see what you've sent.
>
> KaVir.

John Adelsberger

unread,
Aug 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/2/98
to
In rec.games.mud.admin my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

: an LP mud, or really used one properly so I don't know how close that
: description is to being like an LP).

I suggest you learn more about MudOS and/or DGD... what you're proposing
sounds like an incredible duplication of effort. I haven't looked at it
in awhile now, but Cold might be more to your liking if you've a
background in muds built around database engines. Regardless, even if
you _do_ have a legitimate need to put parts of your game into the
hardcoded engine(I bet you don't, but I don't know for sure...) it'd be
easier to start with one of these than to write your own from scratch,
by far...

--
John J. Adelsberger III
j...@umr.edu

"Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."

- Ayn Rand

my...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Aug 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/3/98
to
In article <35c40...@news.cc.umr.edu>,

John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu> wrote:
> In rec.games.mud.admin my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> : an LP mud, or really used one properly so I don't know how close that
> : description is to being like an LP).
>
> I suggest you learn more about MudOS and/or DGD... what you're proposing
> sounds like an incredible duplication of effort. I haven't looked at it
> in awhile now, but Cold might be more to your liking if you've a
> background in muds built around database engines. Regardless, even if
> you _do_ have a legitimate need to put parts of your game into the
> hardcoded engine(I bet you don't, but I don't know for sure...) it'd be
> easier to start with one of these than to write your own from scratch,
> by far...

From what I've seen of MudOS (which isn't that much I'll admit), it doesn't
do quite what I want, uses up too much of the systems resources compared to
what I need, and would probably take me as long to rework as it would to
write from scratch. Especially as I'd have to learn a new system on a mud
I'd never played before with a new way of doing things with it's own quirks
and oddities.

But it's worth a thought I guess.

Cheers,

dk...@hearst.com

unread,
Aug 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/3/98
to
I am in the process of making my own MUD too. I am at mudlib design stage
now. I figured that I can share some thoughts.

In article <6pnbjn$ksm$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,


my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hmmmm.... I was acutally thinking about making death permanent, but with ways
> of escaping from actually being killed. I still need to think about that a
> lot more, but certainly the way death is treated is central to players
> attitudes towards killing and hence to roleplaying. If death is treated
> lightly then it will happen all the time which would probably inhibit
> roleplaying as death should be the last resort as it wouldn't always further
> your cause.

One of my thoughts about death is. You will never stop people from trying to
get revenge. If you make death permanent, you will have completely unrelated
characters chasing others around just because someone killed his/her last
incarnation. My idea is to make the penalty death brings so tough that people
will think 14-15 times before going to some real dangerous place. More than
that I think that the penalty should be more and more tough with rising in
power, meaning that a newbie should be able to recover from death rather
quickly but a baron or king should lose a lot for getting himself killed.

>
> I'm also toying with the idea of building this new mud around an experimental
> engine I wrote a while back which represented the map in a style similar to
> the old moria and nethack games using ascii graphics to show a 2D map of the
> players location. You could then jump in and out of command mode and
> movement mode so you can use the keypad to move around quickly and single key
> presses to open doors and such like, and then enter complex commands like
> chanting out the appropriate syllables for a spell while holding the correct
> spell components. If lag wasn't a problem and a good enough interface could
> be built then I think it would work very well, and allow for more complicated
> geographical settings, while retaining the command line and optional area
> descriptions for certain rooms etc (appearing in a text box above the map) to
> enhance the role playing side of the game. I'd be very interested in what
> people think of this, as while I know it'd work very well for a hack'n'slash
> mud, I'm not sure it would work quite so well for role playing.
>

I would say I don't really like this 2D idea. I don't think it will enhance
RP in any way and it will make a mess of MUD client config. It could be a
good idea if there was an option to print map of places where you have been,
but I dont think allowing to walk through it is a good idea.

Jeld

Dont flame me too hard

Christopher L Tompkins

unread,
Aug 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/3/98
to
I also have started building a MUD-type game from scratch, feeling what
is out there now does not offer quite the quality, nor the variety, of
'role-playing' that I seek. So I have decided to create it myself.
This conversation has brought many interesting ideas, not to mention
encouragement. It is good to see others out there that have the same
opinions about the current scene that I have. Anyway...

< About - "DEATH">

Having DEATH as a final state is such a harsh setup, but I feel it is
almost neccessary, for it does encourage caution over carelessness, and
groups and/or clans to band together more often than not toward common
goals. But how easily should complete death be for an individual? Why can't
you have players decay away just like the mobs? Just provide some sort of
time delay in which help could arrive to heal, or resserect the body before
it decomposes. Also throw in some sort of diety factor, through actions
and/or donations for their god/ess, the player recieves faith points, and
this is used for help from the diety when needed. Anything from alerting
nearby players of the same faith that you need help, to teleporting you to
safety just before you die, to the diety actually bringing you back to life
himself/herself, All depending on the points you have earned through your
adventures. Being actions in the name of the diety, sacrifices, donations,
converting others toward the diety, or even holy quests. This will help
players avoid DEATH as much as possible without being so unrealistic or out
of the fantasy context. But if DEATH were to come and the player were to
decay, then, DEATH should be final, THE END.

< About - "FLEXIBLE ROOM DESCRIPTIONS">

This idea has also crossed my mind, though actually implementing it is
quite a challenge and there are some questions as to should it be done or
not. The way most MUD's are now, the room description is static and never
changes. What if weather or actions of players could affect the room and
the description could change accordingly. Such as, when it rains, puddles
are now on the ground, the trees are wet, and the dirt is now mud. Or as
someone mentioned earlier, if a player chops down the trees, this should be
noted in the description for other players to see. But though this seems
the realistic way to go, should it be done? Many players map the lands and
use certain descriptions as landmarks or key points to guide by, if the
descriptions change while the players are wandering around, the confusion
and/or frustration that the players experience might turn them away. Like a
player who knows the path to the hidden cave is marked by an old oak tree
standing within a pine forest. If someone were to chop the old oak tree,
that landmark has now been destroyed. Again, it would be the realistic
thing to happen, but will it hurt the MUD rather than help it?

< About - "FLEXIBLE PLAYER DESCRIPTIONS">

This is also an interesting idea that has mixed opinions on whether or
not it should be done. I have been contemplating testing a system where all
creatures, being players and mobs, have a generic title that is displayed
when you see them in a room. Such as - In this room is a short,
dark-skinned man, a slender, robed woman, and a giant warrior riding a
warhorse. These 3 people could be other players, mob creatures, or NPC's
from the local town. They are all strangers and they are just as you see
them. These titles would be based on there current clothing or appearance.
They could be altered at a local tailor or similar place. You could then
have an INTRODUCE command which would introduce you to them, or could also
be used for you to introduce two people to each other, encouraging
conversation and role-playing. Once you have met someone, you always see
them as their name, instead of their title. Helping you recognize familiar
faces in a croud of strangers. Also allowing for possible skills for
thieves like disguises and/or impersinations. All that would be needed to
keep track of who knows who would be a 2-dimensional array of flags. Does
player 1 know player 235? If you wanted, this could be extended to actually
classify people you have met, labeling them as acquaintances, good friends,
mortal enemies, etc... And when you encounter them, the text is altered
accordingly. In the room you see John, your friend Bob, your blood-brother
Michael, and that evil-swine Robert. You get the idea.

Anyway that is all for now, my fingers are tired.

Thanks,
Christopher.

Richard Woolcock

unread,
Aug 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/3/98
to
dk...@hearst.com wrote:
>
> I am in the process of making my own MUD too. I am at mudlib design stage
> now. I figured that I can share some thoughts.
>
> In article <6pnbjn$ksm$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Hmmmm.... I was acutally thinking about making death permanent, but with ways
> > of escaping from actually being killed. I still need to think about that a
> > lot more, but certainly the way death is treated is central to players
> > attitudes towards killing and hence to roleplaying. If death is treated
> > lightly then it will happen all the time which would probably inhibit
> > roleplaying as death should be the last resort as it wouldn't always further
> > your cause.
>
> One of my thoughts about death is. You will never stop people from trying to
> get revenge. If you make death permanent, you will have completely unrelated
> characters chasing others around just because someone killed his/her last
> incarnation.

Ah, but with an introduction system, how would you *know* who killed you? You
could probably find out, but it would require a fair bit of effort.

> My idea is to make the penalty death brings so tough that people
> will think 14-15 times before going to some real dangerous place. More than
> that I think that the penalty should be more and more tough with rising in
> power, meaning that a newbie should be able to recover from death rather
> quickly but a baron or king should lose a lot for getting himself killed.

But that doesn't get around the main purpose of permanent death in roleplaying
muds - the realism aspect. How do you explain the fact that the person you
just killed is back on their feet and wandering around? You could probably
think up a few different reasons - but the very fact that people can come back
will spoil a lot of roleplaying potential, for example what is the point in
arranging the assassination of your guildmaster (so that you can take his place)
if he'll just come back?

> > I'm also toying with the idea of building this new mud around an experimental
> > engine I wrote a while back which represented the map in a style similar to
> > the old moria and nethack games using ascii graphics to show a 2D map of the
> > players location. You could then jump in and out of command mode and
> > movement mode so you can use the keypad to move around quickly and single key
> > presses to open doors and such like, and then enter complex commands like
> > chanting out the appropriate syllables for a spell while holding the correct
> > spell components. If lag wasn't a problem and a good enough interface could
> > be built then I think it would work very well, and allow for more complicated
> > geographical settings, while retaining the command line and optional area
> > descriptions for certain rooms etc (appearing in a text box above the map) to
> > enhance the role playing side of the game. I'd be very interested in what
> > people think of this, as while I know it'd work very well for a hack'n'slash
> > mud, I'm not sure it would work quite so well for role playing.
> >
>

> I would say I don't really like this 2D idea. I don't think it will enhance
> RP in any way

Debatable - but having a realistic, well laid-out map is hardly going to detract
from roleplaying either.

> and it will make a mess of MUD client config. It could be a

Good! I don't want people botting in a roleplaying mud.

> good idea if there was an option to print map of places where you have been,
> but I dont think allowing to walk through it is a good idea.

All a matter of opinion. There are enough muds that do it the old way, I don't
see what loss there is in someone trying a new approach.

KaVir.

Richard Woolcock

unread,
Aug 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/3/98
to
Christopher L Tompkins wrote:
>
> I also have started building a MUD-type game from scratch, feeling what
> is out there now does not offer quite the quality, nor the variety, of
> 'role-playing' that I seek. So I have decided to create it myself.
> This conversation has brought many interesting ideas, not to mention
> encouragement. It is good to see others out there that have the same
> opinions about the current scene that I have. Anyway...
>
> < About - "DEATH">

[snip as I agree]

> < About - "FLEXIBLE ROOM DESCRIPTIONS">

[snip]

> the realistic way to go, should it be done? Many players map the lands and
> use certain descriptions as landmarks or key points to guide by, if the
> descriptions change while the players are wandering around, the confusion
> and/or frustration that the players experience might turn them away. Like a

Some 'landmarks' never change, such as mountains, etc. With a map layout,
players can visualise their surrounding area which makes it easier to make
their way around. I don't really see what is wrong with having no set
landmarks - would you consider a mud 'bad' if it constantly removed old
areas and added new ones, forcing players to constantly explore?

The only problem I see with dynamic room descriptions is that you cannot
get the same 'artistic' level of room description.

> < About - "FLEXIBLE PLAYER DESCRIPTIONS">
>
> This is also an interesting idea that has mixed opinions on whether or
> not it should be done. I have been contemplating testing a system where all
> creatures, being players and mobs, have a generic title that is displayed
> when you see them in a room. Such as - In this room is a short,

[snip]

> thieves like disguises and/or impersinations. All that would be needed to
> keep track of who knows who would be a 2-dimensional array of flags. Does

An array is not the best way to do it - I'd recommend a linked list.

> player 1 know player 235? If you wanted, this could be extended to actually
> classify people you have met, labeling them as acquaintances, good friends,
> mortal enemies, etc... And when you encounter them, the text is altered
> accordingly. In the room you see John, your friend Bob, your blood-brother
> Michael, and that evil-swine Robert. You get the idea.

Nice idea, certainly better than my "(Like)"/"(Dislike)"/"(Hate)"/etc flags :)

KaVir.

Lewis Zephyr

unread,
Aug 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/3/98
to
On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 19:46:20 -0700, Richard Woolcock
<Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote:

>dk...@hearst.com wrote:
>>
>> I am in the process of making my own MUD too. I am at mudlib design stage
>> now. I figured that I can share some thoughts.
>>
>> In article <6pnbjn$ksm$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>> > Hmmmm.... I was acutally thinking about making death permanent, but with ways
>> > of escaping from actually being killed. I still need to think about that a
>> > lot more, but certainly the way death is treated is central to players
>> > attitudes towards killing and hence to roleplaying. If death is treated
>> > lightly then it will happen all the time which would probably inhibit
>> > roleplaying as death should be the last resort as it wouldn't always further
>> > your cause.
>>

>> One of my thoughts about death is. You will never stop people from trying to
>> get revenge. If you make death permanent, you will have completely unrelated
>> characters chasing others around just because someone killed his/her last
>> incarnation.
>
>Ah, but with an introduction system, how would you *know* who killed you? You
>could probably find out, but it would require a fair bit of effort.

Possible solution to this is if killed by a player get a flag to
release their info unless they were sneaking and killed you in one
blow. Like an asassin job.
I do also think that at some point a person should not be able to come
back from the dead. This would allow for caution.

>
>> My idea is to make the penalty death brings so tough that people
>> will think 14-15 times before going to some real dangerous place. More than
>> that I think that the penalty should be more and more tough with rising in
>> power, meaning that a newbie should be able to recover from death rather
>> quickly but a baron or king should lose a lot for getting himself killed.
>
>But that doesn't get around the main purpose of permanent death in roleplaying
>muds - the realism aspect. How do you explain the fact that the person you
>just killed is back on their feet and wandering around? You could probably
>think up a few different reasons - but the very fact that people can come back
>will spoil a lot of roleplaying potential, for example what is the point in
>arranging the assassination of your guildmaster (so that you can take his place)
>if he'll just come back?

A possible skill for an asassin is to do a non revivable death. ie
after death mutilate the corpse, or a special weapon that sucks the
soul. (one time use only) etc.

>
>> > I'm also toying with the idea of building this new mud around an experimental
>> > engine I wrote a while back which represented the map in a style similar to
>> > the old moria and nethack games using ascii graphics to show a 2D map of the
>> > players location. You could then jump in and out of command mode and
>> > movement mode so you can use the keypad to move around quickly and single key
>> > presses to open doors and such like, and then enter complex commands like
>> > chanting out the appropriate syllables for a spell while holding the correct
>> > spell components. If lag wasn't a problem and a good enough interface could
>> > be built then I think it would work very well, and allow for more complicated
>> > geographical settings, while retaining the command line and optional area
>> > descriptions for certain rooms etc (appearing in a text box above the map) to
>> > enhance the role playing side of the game. I'd be very interested in what
>> > people think of this, as while I know it'd work very well for a hack'n'slash
>> > mud, I'm not sure it would work quite so well for role playing.
>> >
>>

>> I would say I don't really like this 2D idea. I don't think it will enhance
>> RP in any way
>
>Debatable - but having a realistic, well laid-out map is hardly going to detract
>from roleplaying either.

Agreed

>
>> and it will make a mess of MUD client config. It could be a
>
>Good! I don't want people botting in a roleplaying mud.
>
>> good idea if there was an option to print map of places where you have been,
>> but I dont think allowing to walk through it is a good idea.
>
>All a matter of opinion. There are enough muds that do it the old way, I don't
>see what loss there is in someone trying a new approach.
>
>KaVir.

Again, agreed.

Richard Woolcock

unread,
Aug 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/3/98
to
Lewis Zephyr wrote:
>
> On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 19:46:20 -0700, Richard Woolcock
> <Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> >dk...@hearst.com wrote:
> >>
> >> I am in the process of making my own MUD too. I am at mudlib design stage
> >> now. I figured that I can share some thoughts.
> >>
> >> In article <6pnbjn$ksm$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> >> my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >> > Hmmmm.... I was acutally thinking about making death permanent, but with ways
> >> > of escaping from actually being killed. I still need to think about that a
> >> > lot more, but certainly the way death is treated is central to players
> >> > attitudes towards killing and hence to roleplaying. If death is treated
> >> > lightly then it will happen all the time which would probably inhibit
> >> > roleplaying as death should be the last resort as it wouldn't always further
> >> > your cause.
> >>
> >> One of my thoughts about death is. You will never stop people from trying to
> >> get revenge. If you make death permanent, you will have completely unrelated
> >> characters chasing others around just because someone killed his/her last
> >> incarnation.
> >
> >Ah, but with an introduction system, how would you *know* who killed you? You
> >could probably find out, but it would require a fair bit of effort.
>
> Possible solution to this is if killed by a player get a flag to
> release their info unless they were sneaking and killed you in one
> blow. Like an asassin job.

Well actually I was referring to the anonymity of the introduction system as
an advantage - if someone kills you, you *shouldn't* know who they are with
your next character.

> I do also think that at some point a person should not be able to come
> back from the dead. This would allow for caution.

I don't think people should be able to come back at all in a roleplaying mud,
with very rare exceptions for certain themes.

KaVir.

Erin Mulder

unread,
Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
to
Having played on a MUD with an introduce command, I think it's a rather silly
idea. There's nothing magical about introductions. There's no reason they
should have to have a command and be reciprocal in order to work.

I much prefer:

You are in a tavern. There is a short dwarf standing here.

>look dwarf

This short, redbearded dwarf looks rather belligerent.

>label dwarf Redbeard

The short dwarf will now be known as "Redbeard"

>look

You are in a tavern. Redbeard is standing here.

This way, you can recognize someone even if you've never spoken to them, so
long as you've gotten a good look at them. Also, if two people introduce
themselves, they can simply label each other with the names they exchange
(which allows a player to give a false alias). If they don't spend the time to
do that, then they likely won't recall each other again very easily.

Hey.. it's how real memory works. In my game, your memory is limited as well.
In the beginning, you can recall the descriptions of people you've recently met
or who you've seen often (or made an effort to remember). Over time, if you
haven't seen someone in a while, you start forgetting details, until you
finally get to the point where you won't recognize them unless you see them (no
recall allowed). Eventually, you can forget someone altogether.

Meara

Christopher L Tompkins wrote:

> I also have started building a MUD-type game from scratch, feeling what
> is out there now does not offer quite the quality, nor the variety, of
> 'role-playing' that I seek. So I have decided to create it myself.
> This conversation has brought many interesting ideas, not to mention
> encouragement. It is good to see others out there that have the same
> opinions about the current scene that I have. Anyway...
>
> < About - "DEATH">
>

> Having DEATH as a final state is such a harsh setup, but I feel it is
> almost neccessary, for it does encourage caution over carelessness, and
> groups and/or clans to band together more often than not toward common
> goals. But how easily should complete death be for an individual? Why can't
> you have players decay away just like the mobs? Just provide some sort of
> time delay in which help could arrive to heal, or resserect the body before
> it decomposes. Also throw in some sort of diety factor, through actions
> and/or donations for their god/ess, the player recieves faith points, and
> this is used for help from the diety when needed. Anything from alerting
> nearby players of the same faith that you need help, to teleporting you to
> safety just before you die, to the diety actually bringing you back to life
> himself/herself, All depending on the points you have earned through your
> adventures. Being actions in the name of the diety, sacrifices, donations,
> converting others toward the diety, or even holy quests. This will help
> players avoid DEATH as much as possible without being so unrealistic or out
> of the fantasy context. But if DEATH were to come and the player were to
> decay, then, DEATH should be final, THE END.
>

> < About - "FLEXIBLE ROOM DESCRIPTIONS">
>

> This idea has also crossed my mind, though actually implementing it is
> quite a challenge and there are some questions as to should it be done or
> not. The way most MUD's are now, the room description is static and never
> changes. What if weather or actions of players could affect the room and
> the description could change accordingly. Such as, when it rains, puddles
> are now on the ground, the trees are wet, and the dirt is now mud. Or as
> someone mentioned earlier, if a player chops down the trees, this should be
> noted in the description for other players to see. But though this seems

> the realistic way to go, should it be done? Many players map the lands and
> use certain descriptions as landmarks or key points to guide by, if the
> descriptions change while the players are wandering around, the confusion
> and/or frustration that the players experience might turn them away. Like a

> player who knows the path to the hidden cave is marked by an old oak tree
> standing within a pine forest. If someone were to chop the old oak tree,
> that landmark has now been destroyed. Again, it would be the realistic
> thing to happen, but will it hurt the MUD rather than help it?
>

> < About - "FLEXIBLE PLAYER DESCRIPTIONS">
>
> This is also an interesting idea that has mixed opinions on whether or
> not it should be done. I have been contemplating testing a system where all
> creatures, being players and mobs, have a generic title that is displayed
> when you see them in a room. Such as - In this room is a short,

> dark-skinned man, a slender, robed woman, and a giant warrior riding a
> warhorse. These 3 people could be other players, mob creatures, or NPC's
> from the local town. They are all strangers and they are just as you see
> them. These titles would be based on there current clothing or appearance.
> They could be altered at a local tailor or similar place. You could then
> have an INTRODUCE command which would introduce you to them, or could also
> be used for you to introduce two people to each other, encouraging
> conversation and role-playing. Once you have met someone, you always see
> them as their name, instead of their title. Helping you recognize familiar
> faces in a croud of strangers. Also allowing for possible skills for

> thieves like disguises and/or impersinations. All that would be needed to
> keep track of who knows who would be a 2-dimensional array of flags. Does

> player 1 know player 235? If you wanted, this could be extended to actually
> classify people you have met, labeling them as acquaintances, good friends,
> mortal enemies, etc... And when you encounter them, the text is altered
> accordingly. In the room you see John, your friend Bob, your blood-brother
> Michael, and that evil-swine Robert. You get the idea.
>

Erin Mulder

unread,
Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
to

my...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
to
In article <35C697...@nospam.dial.pipex.com>,

Richard Woolcock <Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> Lewis Zephyr wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 19:46:20 -0700, Richard Woolcock
> > <Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> >
> > >dk...@hearst.com wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I am in the process of making my own MUD too. I am at mudlib design stage
> > >> now. I figured that I can share some thoughts.
> > >>
> > >> In article <6pnbjn$ksm$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > >> my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >> > Hmmmm.... I was acutally thinking about making death permanent, but
with ways
> > >> > of escaping from actually being killed. I still need to think about
that a
> > >> > lot more, but certainly the way death is treated is central to players
> > >> > attitudes towards killing and hence to roleplaying. If death is
treated
> > >> > lightly then it will happen all the time which would probably inhibit
> > >> > roleplaying as death should be the last resort as it wouldn't always
further
> > >> > your cause.
> > >>
> > >> One of my thoughts about death is. You will never stop people from trying
to
> > >> get revenge. If you make death permanent, you will have completely
unrelated
> > >> characters chasing others around just because someone killed his/her last
> > >> incarnation.
> > >
> > >Ah, but with an introduction system, how would you *know* who killed you?
You
> > >could probably find out, but it would require a fair bit of effort.
> >
> > Possible solution to this is if killed by a player get a flag to
> > release their info unless they were sneaking and killed you in one
> > blow. Like an asassin job.
>
> Well actually I was referring to the anonymity of the introduction system as
> an advantage - if someone kills you, you *shouldn't* know who they are with
> your next character.
>
> > I do also think that at some point a person should not be able to come
> > back from the dead. This would allow for caution.
>
> I don't think people should be able to come back at all in a roleplaying mud,
> with very rare exceptions for certain themes.
>
> KaVir.
>

I agree whole heartedly. It would certainly aid the roleplaying if people
weren't sure who killed them. That way they couldn't hold a grudge.

But I propose taking the introduce thing a little further. I agree with
using a lable like command to lable players with names, so you can use any
personal alias you choose for them, but as I will be using generated
descriptions of people, rather than just store a player number store what
their description is, and have memory fade over a long time of not seeing
them. So you could have things like "you see someone who you think is Peter,
but you're not too sure". That way if someone has a particularly bad fight
and ends up with a nasty scar then you may have problems recognising them.
You can then update your memory of them using the lable command a second
time.

Righty then, back to death. I believe strongly in permanent death, but I
think it should be hard to kill people out right. In the combat engine I
want to develope, most attacks will be blocked, or will hit your armour
damaging it, but a particularly good hit, or a hit on an unprotected part of
the body will result not in a few hit points being knocked off, but that part
of the body being severly injurred or maybe cut off completely. And if
anyone wants to argue about it then I'll happily ram a dagger into their arm
and ask if it feels like 1d4 points of damage :)

I want to try to balance it so it's very hard to hit a properly protected and
skilled fighter, but if you do hit them, then they're in trouble as they're
going to get hurt. One good slice across the neck should kill anyone, no
matter how many levels (which I'm not implimenting I hasten to add) they
have. At the same time if a dog charges at you and you club it one with your
mace, it'd either die, get knocked out, get enraged, or run away. Thats the
kind of thing I want to have in my mud. Not these silly 17 mud hour long
fights between an appretice warrior and some rabid dog he found in a gutter
somewhere.

[insert from another post]


> > I would say I don't really like this 2D idea. I don't think it will enhance
> > RP in any way
>
> Debatable - but having a realistic, well laid-out map is hardly going to
> detract from roleplaying either.

And it gives more importance to placing in 2D space. If you use the say
command, maybe everyone in a 5 square radius can hear you, but use the
whisper command then maybe only people within 2 squares will be able to hear.
Thus the thief hiding in the corner of the room could hear two people
talking, but when they say a really important bit of information, one may
whisper to the other, just as a precaution, thus the thief cannot make out
what was said.

Area attacks on spells and ranged attacks with spells and missle weapons can
also be greatly enhanced. And the potential for people building their own
homes and such like is there as you don't have to police them to check people
aren't writing stupid room descriptions. They can just build their home and
live in it.

> > and it will make a mess of MUD client config. It could be a
>
> Good! I don't want people botting in a roleplaying mud.

botting would be virtually impossible, thank god, but the only other problem
would be with clients not supporting ansi properly, and more specifically
cursor movement via ansi control codes. If the mud is successful though, I
will try and get in touch with people like the makers of zMud to work
something out so their clients will work 100% in that respect.

> > good idea if there was an option to print map of places where you have been,
> > but I dont think allowing to walk through it is a good idea.

I'm taking a guess, but you probably haven't tried anything like it before.
Try out either moria or nethack or a game like it. I think the map works
really well, and the thought of it being multiplayer with a lot of mud
features and a huge map etc. sounds really appealing to me.

> All a matter of opinion. There are enough muds that do it the old way, I
> don't see what loss there is in someone trying a new approach.
>
> KaVir

I couldn't agree more. There's enough people out there doing the old
"everyone else does it like this, so we'll fall in line" bit, so I want to go
against the flow.

John Adelsberger

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
to
In rec.games.mud.admin my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

: From what I've seen of MudOS (which isn't that much I'll admit), it doesn't


: do quite what I want, uses up too much of the systems resources compared to
: what I need, and would probably take me as long to rework as it would to
: write from scratch.

I've seen a modern MudOS lib running 15-25 users on a 486 25Mhz machine
in 16 megs of RAM, with the cost of a user running somewhere around
50k of memory and the CPU sitting idle about a third of the time. If you
get an interpreter going that can come anywhere close to MudOS's
performance, I'll be downright amazed. (Without using tricks like JIT
and dynamic profile directed optimization(read: HotSpot,) the Java
crowd has yet to do it, and they've got more time and money than you do:)

What you saw was most probably an old driver running a crappy lib. In
order to get the kind of performance I note above, you'd need a custom lib,
since the one I saw is not available, but if you have the skill to build
your own interpreter, a mudlib should be easy, and far less time
consuming than starting from scratch...

Lewis Zephyr

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
to
On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 09:08:25 GMT, my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>In article <35C697...@nospam.dial.pipex.com>,
<<snip>>


>I agree whole heartedly. It would certainly aid the roleplaying if people
>weren't sure who killed them. That way they couldn't hold a grudge.
>
>But I propose taking the introduce thing a little further. I agree with
>using a lable like command to lable players with names, so you can use any
>personal alias you choose for them, but as I will be using generated
>descriptions of people, rather than just store a player number store what
>their description is, and have memory fade over a long time of not seeing
>them. So you could have things like "you see someone who you think is Peter,
>but you're not too sure". That way if someone has a particularly bad fight
>and ends up with a nasty scar then you may have problems recognising them.
>You can then update your memory of them using the lable command a second
>time.

A question.... Lets say your new to the supposed mud. You come into
a room with multiple individuals (PC) and you do a look command.
how would the, say 8 people be listed in the response?
man1
man2
man3
woman1
woman2
elf man 1 etc etc..... so when conversation started I could tell
each from the other?
I'm sure it is just semantics but would like to see some view points.

<<snip>>


>
>> All a matter of opinion. There are enough muds that do it the old way, I
>> don't see what loss there is in someone trying a new approach.
>>
>> KaVir
>
>I couldn't agree more. There's enough people out there doing the old
>"everyone else does it like this, so we'll fall in line" bit, so I want to go
>against the flow.
>
>Chris
>

Right there with both of you.... Change is not always good, but sure
is nice to look at for a while.

Lewzephyr

Barry Zubel

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
to
Whew.. Big thread, and extremely interesting. I do have a few points that
I'd like to raise:

<DEATH>

Yep, its a big problem. Dying in muds in extremely commonplace, however. How
many players of Muds can actually say they have a character who has NEVER
died? I suspect a minute proportion of you might be able to answer 'yes' -
Is this going to attract new players, making sure that before they learn
what 'con' is, they've died and had to start again with a new char?

I don't have a solution, I wish I did.. but I agree with the fact that dying
and simply repopping at the Temple isn't realistic....

HOWEVER.......

<REALISM>

*WHY* are we discussing the level of realism in a mud? - when was the last
time you 'teleported' to work, instead of taking the bus or car? When was
the last time you paralyzed the barman of your local and got your own
drinks? When was the last time you felt a little bit down, so you cast 'cure
light' ? - MUDS are *NOT* realistic... I do agree that muds do need an
element of realism.. but lets not get bogged down with it. Yeah - you need
to eat, you need to sleep.. (and on that theme, have your mud characters
ever used the bathroom?)
but do we really need to code in arguments with mud-spouses... or female PCS
that suffer from 'that time of the month' ? (hmm.. digress.. it could give
them attack bonuses like frenzy... *scribble in notepad* )

I'm not looking to get flamed here, but I do think that a MUD is designed to
be escapism from the real world. I'm totally for revamping the way muds
run - too many stock muds around that don't offer anything new, but trying
to code in a mud that mirrors real life in all ways would be.. well..
pointless

<NETHACK>

All I can say is WOW. I can remember playing 10rogue, nethack, and omega
many years ago, and loving it. If Quake can be run over the internet, then
why not something a lot less bandwidth hungry, and a lot more sociable. If
you need coders, I'm definately in on this one.

I do believe, however, that the generic clients around nowadays would have
*big* problems with it. I am guessing that you would need some kind of
custom client, or heavily modified client to handle that sort of server. But
hey, ever seen anyone playing Quake using telnet as a client?

My first thought was that you wouldn't get the kind of custom 'feel' of the
place as you do with a text-based description mud. You wouldn't get
different 'flavours' of area (i.e. an ocean, or a desert) - but then I cast
my mind back to Omega. (I dont know if anyone is familiar with this game,
its pretty old.) They handled it with a two stage map, where, for example,
on the large area map, a city would be replaced by a single character, which
you moved over and 'entered' which brought you to a more detailed map of the
city itself. The large area had different ascii characters for dfferent
types of terrain on the large map, (a . for a road, a ~ for water etc.) and
the 'zoomed' map was more lacking in terrain, but made up in detailed "d
buildings, etc. etc. Yeah... the more I think of it, the more I like the
idea.

Just my couple of points on this thread.

Barry Zubel
Penfold
joynt.vkresearch.com:4000

my...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6q6j28$g5k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

my...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
to
In article <35c70...@news.cc.umr.edu>,

Well I was working on the idea of running a map made of 100 by 100 sectors.
Each sector would be 100 by 100 squares. This would make for, uncompressed,
a total map of near enough 100 Mb, if 1 byte was all you needed per square.
I reckon I can make the map run ok with 1 byte per square permanently stored,
but for all the run time effects and overlays I want, I was looking at closer
to 9 bytes per square. So that's 100 Mb of disc space + 9 times that while
loaded into memory. Sectors could be dynamically loaded quite easily so only
a few need be active at a time, but when you've got thousands of mobs running
around, like I hope, then you can hopefully see how it's going to quickly
consume a lot of resources. Add to that a large game engine, and I think all
in all it'd be better to write a custom server from scratch. Especially with
the length of time it'd take me to learn mudos and then modify it etc.

Cheers anyway,

Richard Woolcock

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
to
Erin Mulder wrote:
>
> Having played on a MUD with an introduce command, I think it's a rather silly
> idea. There's nothing magical about introductions. There's no reason they
> should have to have a command and be reciprocal in order to work.
>
> I much prefer:
>
> You are in a tavern. There is a short dwarf standing here.
>
> >look dwarf
>
> This short, redbearded dwarf looks rather belligerent.
>
> >label dwarf Redbeard
>
> The short dwarf will now be known as "Redbeard"
>
> >look
>
> You are in a tavern. Redbeard is standing here.

I actually implemented this, then removed it. Having gone to great
lengths to try and separate IC and OOC (giving players a mud-generated
IC first/surname), I found that people would just tag each other with
that persons OOC name. This is one situation in which I decided that
my mud would benefit from a lack of realism. Players can now introduce
themselves by forename, surname, or both (they speak it out loud, so
everyone in the room knows).

[snip rest]

KaVir.

Richard Woolcock

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
to
Barry Zubel wrote:
>
> Whew.. Big thread, and extremely interesting. I do have a few points that
> I'd like to raise:
>
> <DEATH>
>
> Yep, its a big problem. Dying in muds in extremely commonplace, however. How
> many players of Muds can actually say they have a character who has NEVER
> died? I suspect a minute proportion of you might be able to answer 'yes' -
> Is this going to attract new players, making sure that before they learn
> what 'con' is, they've died and had to start again with a new char?

In a good roleplaying mud, you should be able to prosper without having to
ever engage in combat. If you want to fight, that should be an option - if
you then die, that's your own fault. Those who live by the sword, etc...

> I don't have a solution, I wish I did.. but I agree with the fact that dying
> and simply repopping at the Temple isn't realistic....
>
> HOWEVER.......
>
> <REALISM>
>
> *WHY* are we discussing the level of realism in a mud? - when was the last
> time you 'teleported' to work, instead of taking the bus or car? When was
> the last time you paralyzed the barman of your local and got your own
> drinks? When was the last time you felt a little bit down, so you cast 'cure
> light' ? - MUDS are *NOT* realistic... I do agree that muds do need an

That is an extremely poor argument, and one which often seems to crop up in
this sort of thread. In most muds, magic exists, therefore - within the
theme of the mud - casting spells *is* realistic. If the mud has a modern
day theme, then teleporting/etc might well be 'unrealistic' - equally, in
most muds, catching the bus would be 'unrealistic'.

> element of realism.. but lets not get bogged down with it. Yeah - you need
> to eat, you need to sleep.. (and on that theme, have your mud characters
> ever used the bathroom?)

I like to make my mud as realistic as possible within its theme (which happens
to be modern day, and no, you can't cast spells) as long as the code doesn't
detract from the gameplay. No, my players don't have to go to the bathroom.

> but do we really need to code in arguments with mud-spouses... or female PCS
> that suffer from 'that time of the month' ? (hmm.. digress.. it could give
> them attack bonuses like frenzy... *scribble in notepad* )

Sure, realism can be taken too far, but you are taking it to an extreme. I
could just as easily take the argument the other way - how about coding:

1) If a player opens a door, there is a 1% chance of a huge foot coming down
from the sky and squashing them flat - this can be avoided by wearing a
helmet with a spike on the top.

2) Every time a player gains a level, a stampede of elephants charge across the
mud, trampling anyone and anything in their way - except players riding giant
mice.

3) The most powerful item in the mud is, in fact, a rather small turnip - which
can be discovered by simply saying "wibble" while riding a yak in midgaard.

4) You never need to eat, sleep or drink, can consume as much alchohol as you
wish, and can never fall below 1hp (for convenience).

5) Bananas cannot be eaten, but make great weapons - sliced grapefruit and
small grapes are also quite effective.

Would you code any of those features into a (serious) roleplaying mud? If
not, why not? They are no less realistic than magic... but, unlike magic,
they (probably;) don't fit into the theme of most muds.

> I'm not looking to get flamed here, but I do think that a MUD is designed to
> be escapism from the real world. I'm totally for revamping the way muds
> run - too many stock muds around that don't offer anything new, but trying
> to code in a mud that mirrors real life in all ways would be.. well..
> pointless

That is why many muds choose a fantasy theme, in which magic IS realistic.
If you want a light-hearted mud, try a non-roleplaying mud; most roleplaying
muds try to be as realistic as possible within their themes to help players
feel as if they are playing in a believable alternate reality.

KaVir.

Lars Duening

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Aug 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/4/98
to
Barry Zubel <ba...@vkresearch.com> wrote:

> Whew.. Big thread, and extremely interesting. I do have a few points that
> I'd like to raise:
>
> <DEATH>
>
> Yep, its a big problem. Dying in muds in extremely commonplace, however. How
> many players of Muds can actually say they have a character who has NEVER
> died? I suspect a minute proportion of you might be able to answer 'yes' -
> Is this going to attract new players, making sure that before they learn
> what 'con' is, they've died and had to start again with a new char?
>
> I don't have a solution, I wish I did.. but I agree with the fact that dying
> and simply repopping at the Temple isn't realistic....

I favour the arcade game solution: you start out with n >= 3 lives, and
every 1000 points you get one life more to waste.
--
Lars Duening; la...@cableinet.co.uk

Peteris Paikens

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Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
>A question.... Lets say your new to the supposed mud. You come into
>a room with multiple individuals (PC) and you do a look command.
>how would the, say 8 people be listed in the response?

I guess that it would be like in some LPMuds e.g
a tall hairy male dwarf,
a fat black-eyed female human,
a beautiful skinny elf called Galadriel (I don't remember this part, but
something like that.)
etc.

Xiad Ommeri

unread,
Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
I reccomend out of my experience to check out:

www.dragonrealms.net

If you are a good programmer and you could halfway jusge whats going on with
code from watching cause and effect then you will have a hay day with this
mud.

Also I have yet to find a better one anywhere. (Though my attempt at
creating my own MUD wont even begin for another 6 months)

Dragonrealms has about everything anyone could have in a text based mud
which makes it difficult for me to create a MUD comparible to it.

For the past 2 years I have been playing it and have come to some
understanding of the basic structure of that particular Mud (Which for all
of my understanding is not a main-stream MUD, but a very well developed
custom job with rave reviews and Kudos from other areas as well.

An open request for any programming code relating to anything found in
Dragonrealms www.dragonrealms.net .

Thanks,
Xiad Ommeri
visi...@uswest.net

Christopher L Tompkins wrote in message
<01bdbeea$f3ca7b80$49201e26@brujah>...

my...@my-dejanews.com

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Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
In article <35C7DD...@nospam.dial.pipex.com>,
Richard Woolcock <Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote:

> Erin Mulder wrote:
> >
> > Having played on a MUD with an introduce command, I think it's a rather
silly
> > idea. There's nothing magical about introductions. There's no reason they
> > should have to have a command and be reciprocal in order to work.
> >
> > I much prefer:
> >
> > You are in a tavern. There is a short dwarf standing here.
> >
> > >look dwarf
> >
> > This short, redbearded dwarf looks rather belligerent.
> >
> > >label dwarf Redbeard
> >
> > The short dwarf will now be known as "Redbeard"
> >
> > >look
> >
> > You are in a tavern. Redbeard is standing here.
>
> I actually implemented this, then removed it. Having gone to great
> lengths to try and separate IC and OOC (giving players a mud-generated
> IC first/surname), I found that people would just tag each other with
> that persons OOC name. This is one situation in which I decided that
> my mud would benefit from a lack of realism. Players can now introduce
> themselves by forename, surname, or both (they speak it out loud, so
> everyone in the room knows).
>
> [snip rest]
>
> KaVir.
>

I dunno if it will work, but I was thinking about everyone logging on using a
user name, and then log on as a player from there. So their player name and
user name are seperate. That way they can choose a decent player name, yet
still have their favourite login name and password. That way they can also
have a first name and a surname for their character. Reckon it'd help at
all?

Larnen

unread,
Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
Richard Woolcock wrote:
>
> Barry Zubel wrote:
> >

> > HOWEVER.......
> >
> > <REALISM>
> >
> > *WHY* are we discussing the level of realism in a mud?

> Sure, realism can be taken too far, but you are taking it to an


> extreme. I could just as easily take the argument the other way -
> how about coding:
>
>

> 2) Every time a player gains a level, a stampede of elephants charge
> across the> mud, trampling anyone and anything in their way -
> except players riding giant mice.
>

Sounds an excellent idea to me!!!

Larnen (from Elephant Mud) :)

my...@my-dejanews.com

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Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
In article <35c80...@news2.uswest.net>,

"Xiad Ommeri" <Nos...@mymail.now> wrote:
> I reccomend out of my experience to check out:
>
> www.dragonrealms.net
>
> If you are a good programmer and you could halfway jusge whats going on with
> code from watching cause and effect then you will have a hay day with this
> mud.
>
> Also I have yet to find a better one anywhere. (Though my attempt at
> creating my own MUD wont even begin for another 6 months)
>
> Dragonrealms has about everything anyone could have in a text based mud
> which makes it difficult for me to create a MUD comparible to it.
>
> For the past 2 years I have been playing it and have come to some
> understanding of the basic structure of that particular Mud (Which for all
> of my understanding is not a main-stream MUD, but a very well developed
> custom job with rave reviews and Kudos from other areas as well.
>
> An open request for any programming code relating to anything found in
> Dragonrealms www.dragonrealms.net .
>
> Thanks,
> Xiad Ommeri
> visi...@uswest.net

I think you missed the point of the original post. It wasn't a post asking
how muds currently do things, but how they should be done in a perfect world
and how to best achieve those perfect goals using current and future mud
technology. I haven't checked the mud, so I can't pass judgement on it, but
to be brutally honest I'm not really interested in how things are done, but
how they should be done.

Sorry, but I was looking for ideas, not info on which mud I should be playing
:)

What I would be interested in though, is the details of how the roleplaying
environment is special in that mud, and why you think it is the best that
could be achieved.

John Adelsberger

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Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
In rec.games.mud.admin Richard Woolcock <Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote:
: Christopher L Tompkins wrote:

: > thieves like disguises and/or impersinations. All that would be needed to


: > keep track of who knows who would be a 2-dimensional array of flags. Does

: An array is not the best way to do it - I'd recommend a linked list.

Why do Diku people ALWAYS use linked lists? Do you guys simply not KNOW
of any other structures? Are you too lazy to code them? Whats up, guys?:)
This is an _obvious_ candidate for per-player hash tables or trinary search
trees...

mwi...@my-dejanews.com

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Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
In article <35C7E3...@nospam.dial.pipex.com>,

Richard Woolcock <Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> 1) If a player opens a door, there is a 1% chance of a huge foot coming down
> from the sky and squashing them flat - this can be avoided by wearing a
> helmet with a spike on the top.
>
> 2) Every time a player gains a level, a stampede of elephants charge across
the
> mud, trampling anyone and anything in their way - except players riding
giant
> mice.
>
> 3) The most powerful item in the mud is, in fact, a rather small turnip -
which
> can be discovered by simply saying "wibble" while riding a yak in midgaard.
>
> 4) You never need to eat, sleep or drink, can consume as much alchohol as you
> wish, and can never fall below 1hp (for convenience).
>
> 5) Bananas cannot be eaten, but make great weapons - sliced grapefruit and
> small grapes are also quite effective.

Damn, KaVir! You gave away all my secrets! Now I'm gonna hafta redo the
whole mud. Bastard.


-Mickelian dines on strange governing bacon with a small green fish.

my...@my-dejanews.com

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Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
In article <35c84...@news.cc.umr.edu>,

It's rather embarassing to admit it, but I've never ever implimented a trinary
search tree. In fact, it's years since I implimented a binary one, as I've
always tended to go for hash tables or in true diku programmer style a linked
list. So John, this is your big moment to show off. Teach us how to use a
trinary tree in this case, and why it's best.

TTFN

Chris

Xiad Ommeri

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Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
ok Im sorry,
let me say then that particular mud is the way a mud SHOULD be done. =)
Xiad Ommeri
my...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6q9gpd$frp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

>In article <35c80...@news2.uswest.net>,
> "Xiad Ommeri" <Nos...@mymail.now> wrote:
>> I reccomend out of my experience to check out:
>>
>> www.dragonrealms.net
>>
>> If you are a good programmer and you could halfway jusge whats going on
with
>> code from watching cause and effect then you will have a hay day with
this
>> mud.
>>
>> Also I have yet to find a better one anywhere. (Though my attempt at
>> creating my own MUD wont even begin for another 6 months)
>>
>> Dragonrealms has about everything anyone could have in a text based mud
>> which makes it difficult for me to create a MUD comparible to it.
>>
>> For the past 2 years I have been playing it and have come to some
>> understanding of the basic structure of that particular Mud (Which for
all
>> of my understanding is not a main-stream MUD, but a very well developed
>> custom job with rave reviews and Kudos from other areas as well.
>>
>> An open request for any programming code relating to anything found in
>> Dragonrealms www.dragonrealms.net .
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Xiad Ommeri
>> visi...@uswest.net
>
>I think you missed the point of the original post. It wasn't a post asking
>how muds currently do things, but how they should be done in a perfect
world
>and how to best achieve those perfect goals using current and future mud
>technology. I haven't checked the mud, so I can't pass judgement on it,
but
>to be brutally honest I'm not really interested in how things are done, but
>how they should be done.
>
>Sorry, but I was looking for ideas, not info on which mud I should be
playing
>:)
>
>What I would be interested in though, is the details of how the roleplaying
>environment is special in that mud, and why you think it is the best that
>could be achieved.
>

Richard Woolcock

unread,
Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
Xiad Ommeri wrote:
>
> ok Im sorry,
> let me say then that particular mud is the way a mud SHOULD be done. =)

Why? Who defines the way a mud should or shouldn't be written? If it is
the perfect solution, then why do people play other muds - and why don't all
other muds try to immitate it (and why haven't I ever heard of it)?

If you think it has some good roleplaying features, please add them to the
discussion - WHAT does it have that is so special? WHAT does it have that
other muds don't have? If you want to convince us, think up a good argument
as to what the mud offers, what aspects of it are appealing, and then put
forward those ideas.

KaVir.

Richard Woolcock

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Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
my...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>
> Richard Woolcock wrote:
> > I actually implemented this, then removed it. Having gone to great
> > lengths to try and separate IC and OOC (giving players a mud-generated
> > IC first/surname), I found that people would just tag each other with
> > that persons OOC name. This is one situation in which I decided that
> > my mud would benefit from a lack of realism. Players can now introduce
> > themselves by forename, surname, or both (they speak it out loud, so
> > everyone in the room knows).
>
> I dunno if it will work, but I was thinking about everyone logging on using a
> user name, and then log on as a player from there. So their player name and
> user name are seperate. That way they can choose a decent player name, yet
> still have their favourite login name and password. That way they can also
> have a first name and a surname for their character. Reckon it'd help at
> all?

Nope, you'll have exactly the same problem I had.

Connecting to Super Roleplaying Mud...

Please enter your account ID: ripper
Please enter your password: *****

Please select which of your bodies you wish to play:
[1] Joe Bloggs
[2] John Doe
[3] Wayne Kurr
:1
Entering play as Joe Bloggs.

You are standing in a boring little room.
A large, muscular man looms before you.
The man says 'Hi there, this is slayer, playing one of my other chars :P'.
: label man Slayer4
: say hiya, this is ripper!
You say 'hiya, this is ripper!'.
Slayer4 nods at you.
Slayer4 says 'okay, your label is set'.

In theory, its a good idea. In practice, it doesn't work.

KaVir.

J C Lawrence

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Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
In alt.mud.programming Lars Duening <la...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:

> I favour the arcade game solution: you start out with n >= 3 lives, and
> every 1000 points you get one life more to waste.

Okay, I play very carefully, perhaps running a bot script on a mule
character in the off hours, and collect several dozen spare lives.
I'm now a formidable and even implacable oppponent that few can afford
to stand against as they can't equal the sump of lives I have in the
bank.

--
J C Lawrence Internet: cl...@null.net
(Contractor) Internet: co...@ibm.net
---------(*) Internet: cl...@under.engr.sgi.com
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...

The Wildman

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Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98
to
On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 15:18:10 GMT, Wildman's eyes rolled up in his head and
froth dripped from his fangs when my...@my-dejanews.com
<my...@my-dejanews.com> said the following fighting words:

>In article <35c84...@news.cc.umr.edu>,
> John Adelsberger <j...@umr.edu> wrote:
>> In rec.games.mud.admin Richard Woolcock <Ka...@nospam.dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>> : Christopher L Tompkins wrote:
>>
>> : > thieves like disguises and/or impersinations. All that would be needed to
>> : > keep track of who knows who would be a 2-dimensional array of flags. Does
>>
>> : An array is not the best way to do it - I'd recommend a linked list.
>>
>> Why do Diku people ALWAYS use linked lists? Do you guys simply not KNOW
>> of any other structures? Are you too lazy to code them? Whats up, guys?:)
>> This is an _obvious_ candidate for per-player hash tables or trinary search
>> trees...
>>
>> --
>> John J. Adelsberger III
>> j...@umr.edu
>>
>> "Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
>>
>> - Ayn Rand
>
>It's rather embarassing to admit it, but I've never ever implimented a trinary
>search tree. In fact, it's years since I implimented a binary one, as I've
>always tended to go for hash tables or in true diku programmer style a linked
>list. So John, this is your big moment to show off. Teach us how to use a
>trinary tree in this case, and why it's best.
>
Of course, John was showing off his witty sarcasm again. I'll admit it takes
a bit of practice to know when he's being sarcastic, but eventually you get
the hang of it. The easy rule is: If John is posting wrt Diku, he's most
likely being sarcastic.

--
The Wildman
PLEASE do NOT reply to this post! If you MUST email me, please use wildman at
microserve dot net, but a followup is preferred. If you DO reply to the
wrong address, I'll still read it but don't expect a reply. Unless you are a
spammer, in which case I will reply to your ISP.
Fight spam - http://www.cauce.org/
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GCS/MU d- s: a- C++ UL+ P+ L+++ !E W-- N+++ o !K w--- !O !M V-- PS PE Y+ PGP?
t+ 5+ X R tv b++ DI+ D++ G e h---- r++++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Holly Sommer

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Aug 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/5/98