Where do you put the autoexec lines for a dosbox?
mm
dosbox?
I need to use a shell and/or set command before I go from win98 to a
dos box:
shell=C:\PROGRAMS\4DOS\4dos.com /p
and/or
set comspec=C:\PROGRAMS\4DOS\4dos.com
4DOS I just found out is available free now for DOS, Win98, and even
winXP. (I have paid for it already, but can't find the disks to
install it in this computer.)
The installation in XP went fine, including its putting an icon in the
QuckLaunch bar. Although it does have the problem that too many
operations are displayed in the GUI and requires alt-tab to get back
to the dosbox. There is no native dos in XP so they pretty much had
to get the box to work.
My XP is broken now and until I get it fixed, I'm back to win98SE. A
different version of 4DOS is available for that, and installation was
easy and it works fine in native DOS.
The last time I did this I knew how, but it's been 10 years or so and
I can't remember. :(
Jaelani
For Windows 9x, just add/edit the SHELL option in your CONFIG.SYS.
For Windows XP... well, you can't do that since Windows XP is a native
32-bit OS - unlike Windows 9x/Me. Use TCLite instead (freeware, from the
same creator of 4DOS, formerly named 4NT).
mm
wrote:
>mm wrote:
>> In Win98, where do you put the config.sys and autoexec lines for a
>> dosbox?
>>
>> I need to use a shell and/or set command before I go from win98 to a
>> dos box:
>>
>> shell=C:\PROGRAMS\4DOS\4dos.com /p
>> and/or
>> set comspec=C:\PROGRAMS\4DOS\4dos.com
>> 4DOS I just found out is available free now for DOS, Win98, and even
>> winXP. (I have paid for it already, but can't find the disks to
>> install it in this computer.)
>>
>> The installation in XP went fine, including its putting an icon in the
>> QuckLaunch bar. Although it does have the problem that too many
>> operations are displayed in the GUI and requires alt-tab to get back
>> to the dosbox. There is no native dos in XP so they pretty much had
>> to get the box to work.
>>
>> My XP is broken now and until I get it fixed, I'm back to win98SE. A
>> different version of 4DOS is available for that, and installation was
>> easy and it works fine in native DOS.
>>
>> The last time I did this I knew how, but it's been 10 years or so and
>> I can't remember. :(
>
>For Windows 9x, just add/edit the SHELL option in your CONFIG.SYS.
No, that doesn't do it. (Having to explain it to you caused me to
remember he solution. 3 paragrpahs down.) The 4dos install does that,
and it works in native DOS, but if I start a dos box from within
win98, it's straight microsoft dos as if 4dos were never installed.
This was true the first time too, 10 years ago.
(I used to have two icons, one that went to a MSDOS box and one that
went to a 4DOS box, but alas that harddrive started going click click
click, and I had no backup for files I wrote that weren't in the
normal data areas.)
Aha! Having to explain this to you in order to ask my question better
reminds me of the answer. In order to have my choice, I had two
shortcuts. So one way is to make a shortcut on the desktop for 4DOS
in which the command is
C:\PROGRAMS\4DOS\4DOS.COM /p or whatever fits your files.
Doing that makes it run autoexec.bat again, maybe because of the /p.
But regardless it works now, so thank you for the help, and I want to
remind all DOS users and win98 users how great 4DOS is.
One can then edit the properties of the shortcut and decide if he
wants full-screen dos or a box. It's possible to copy and paste from
a box.
My personal favorite is the List command, which will display the
internals of any file, in hex or text. List *.* will display every
file in a directory, only needing esc to go to the next file. And
it's incredibly quick because the file isn't mored to a work area in
RAM aiui, and there is no chance of making a change to it by accident
(which once happened to me with an editor, where the editor put one
character at the end for some reason.)
On another occaiosn, when I deleted about 200 files because my
directory structure was bad, and when I deleted a subdirectory, two
levels down it found the root directory and was deleting files in the
root directory. They were all redeemable with Norton Undelete, but I
didn't always know what the first letter was. List enable me to look
inside easily, hunt for the name minus the first letter, and then
learn what the first letter was. About 2/3 of the files had their
names inside of them.
>For Windows XP... well, you can't do that since Windows XP is a native
>32-bit OS - unlike Windows 9x/Me. Use TCLite instead (freeware, from the
>same creator of 4DOS, formerly named 4NT).
Good advice to other readers. I have TC Le it might be called now,
and it works fine, and for free like you say. I guess Because XP is
like NT, 4DOS won't work there.
They hide the free stuff a little bit among all the stuff they want to
sell. But that seems fair.
Jaelani
> No, that doesn't do it. (Having to explain it to you caused me to
> remember he solution. 3 paragrpahs down.) The 4dos install does that,
> and it works in native DOS, but if I start a dos box from within
> win98, it's straight microsoft dos as if 4dos were never installed.
Ah, that could probably be the "DOSPRMPT.PIF" (in WINDOWS directory)
when under Windows 9x/Me. That PIF file is used as the default DOS box
environment when running DOS programs and it defaults to COMMAND.COM (if
I remember correctly). Just change it to your 4DOS.COM. Mine was set to
"%COMSPEC%". The other one is "Exit To Dos.pif" which is used when
exiting to DOS prompt (terminating Windows).
mm
wrote:
>mm wrote:
>> No, that doesn't do it. (Having to explain it to you caused me to
>> remember he solution. 3 paragrpahs down.) The 4dos install does that,
>> and it works in native DOS, but if I start a dos box from within
>> win98, it's straight microsoft dos as if 4dos were never installed.
>[snip]
>
>Ah, that could probably be the "DOSPRMPT.PIF" (in WINDOWS directory)
Ah, that rings a big bell too. I had forgotten about .pif files.
That's surprising since they always reminded me of some early poetry,
"Magic words of poof, poof, piffles, make me just as small as
Sniffles." I forget the source.
>when under Windows 9x/Me. That PIF file is used as the default DOS box
>environment when running DOS programs and it defaults to COMMAND.COM (if
>I remember correctly). Just change it to your 4DOS.COM. Mine was set to
>"%COMSPEC%". The other one is "Exit To Dos.pif" which is used when
>exiting to DOS prompt (terminating Windows).
Is Exit to Dos really the same as terminating Windows? I thought it
unloaded a lot of windows, but it was still running dos under windows
under dos. I remember why. When I go there and later enter Exit, it
goes back to windows.
Michael Bednarek
[snip]
>Is Exit to Dos really the same as terminating Windows? I thought it
>unloaded a lot of windows, but it was still running dos under windows
>under dos. I remember why. When I go there and later enter Exit, it
>goes back to windows.
You're right; Exit to DOS is not the same as terminating Windows.
However, I definitely remember that it is indeed possible to terminate
Windows and return to the original DOS session that started Windows
(WIN.COM").
For this to work, AUTOEXEC.BAT has to be present and the file
C:\WINDOWS\LOGOSYS.SYS (a bitmap file) must not be present. Then, Shut
Down from Windows will return to the CLI. If you declare 4DOS the shell
in CONFIG.SYS and started WIN.COM from 4DOS, you will be returned to
4DOS. This is the configuration under which I ran Win3.x .
--
Michael Bednarek http://mbednarek.com/ "POST NO BILLS"
--
Michael Bednarek http://mbednarek.com/ "POST NO BILLS"
J. P. Gilliver (John)
I faintly remember, too, seeing a mention of another filename - I think
it might have been AUTOEXEC.DOS or something like that - which was/is
"run" when you open a DOS box from within Windows, much like
AUTOEXEC.BAT is for true DOS. (I can't remember if there was/is an
equivalent for CONFIG.SYS, though.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **
"Mr. Spock succumbs to a powerful mating urge and nearly kills Captain Kirk."
- TV Guide description of Amok Time Trek episode.
PCR
Did you download & install the latest free one from that site you
posted? I just did so on your recommendation. (You're right-- that LIST
command is really something. So... thanks!) But I haven't had the
problem you reported. Whether I click an old DOS shortcut that loads
Command.com or the new one that loads 4DOS.COM, I get...
4DOS XMS swapping initialized (55K)
4DOS running under Windows 98
4DOS 7.50 (Win98) DOS 7.10
Copyright 1988-2004 Rex Conn & JP Software Inc. All Rights Reserved
...And all works the same as far I can see so far. Even when I click
Command.com, itself, 4DOS.com seems to be what I get. And in all cases,
MEM/C shows 4DOS has been loaded instead of Command.com...
Name Total Conventional Upper Memory
-------- ------------- ---------------- ----------------
4DOS 4,064 (4K) 4,064 (4K) 0 (0K)
4dos 2,576 (3K) 2,576 (3K) 0 (0K)
The only thing that loads Command.com now is that .pif Jaelani
mentioned... DOSPRMPT.PIF. When I click that one, seems I get my old
MS-DOS, & MEM/C shows...
4DOS 4,064 (4K) 4,064 (4K) 0 (0K)
COMMAND 7,456 (7K) 7,456 (7K) 0 (0K)
> (I used to have two icons, one that went to a MSDOS box and one that
> went to a 4DOS box, but alas that harddrive started going click click
> click, and I had no backup for files I wrote that weren't in the
> normal data areas.)
>
> Aha! Having to explain this to you in order to ask my question better
> reminds me of the answer. In order to have my choice, I had two
> shortcuts. So one way is to make a shortcut on the desktop for 4DOS
> in which the command is
>
> C:\PROGRAMS\4DOS\4DOS.COM /p or whatever fits your files.
Well, my shortcut command line reads...
C:\JPSOFT\4DOS\4DOS.COM
Your path is different. But the point is there is no "/p". That belongs
in Config.sys. Here is what the install added to the bottom of my
files...
Config.sys
-------------
shell=C:\JPSOFT\4DOS\4dos.com /p
Autoexec.bat
-----------------
SET PATH=C:\JPSOFT\4DOS;%PATH%
set comspec=C:\JPSOFT\4DOS\4dos.com
> Doing that makes it run autoexec.bat again, maybe because of the /p.
According to 4DOS HELP, "/p" does cause Autoexec.bat to run again, & it
makes the DOS window permanent. Can you exit it after you start it that
way? Also, if you open more than one that way, I think more resources
are used, & they may not share the global settings.
--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR
pcr...@netzero.net
PCR
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> In message <h6hphl$p7v$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Jaelani
> <jaej...@googlemail.com> writes:
>>mm wrote:
>>> No, that doesn't do it. (Having to explain it to you caused me to
>>> remember he solution. 3 paragrpahs down.) The 4dos install does
>>> that, and it works in native DOS, but if I start a dos box from
>>> within win98, it's straight microsoft dos as if 4dos were never
>>> installed. [snip]
>>
>>Ah, that could probably be the "DOSPRMPT.PIF" (in WINDOWS directory)
>>when under Windows 9x/Me. That PIF file is used as the default DOS box
>>environment when running DOS programs and it defaults to COMMAND.COM
>>(if I remember correctly). Just change it to your 4DOS.COM. Mine was
>>set to "%COMSPEC%". The other one is "Exit To Dos.pif" which is used
>>when exiting to DOS prompt (terminating Windows).
>
> I faintly remember, too, seeing a mention of another filename - I
> think it might have been AUTOEXEC.DOS or something like that - which
> was/is "run" when you open a DOS box from within Windows, much like
> AUTOEXEC.BAT is for true DOS. (I can't remember if there was/is an
> equivalent for CONFIG.SYS, though.)
I believe there was, but according to a post of cquirke's in my Keepers,
the *.dos files were Win95 files (I think he said). I think they served
the same purpose as the the *.wos files in Win98. The *.wos files I know
work like this...
Warm Booted MS-DOS mode ("Re-boot" to DOS)
a. Accessed from a "Warm Boot" .pif that IS BOTH checked "MS-DOS mode"
AND bolted "Specify a new MS-DOS configuration", in it's Properties,
Program tab, Advanced button.
b. Accessed from START button, if you've altered "exit to dos", as
described.
c. Does a warm boot, using Config.sys and Autoexec.bat as configured
in the pif. (The system files are renamed *.wos & the pif files are
extracted for the session.)
d. Dosstart.bat is NOT run.
e. "EXIT" restores the system Config.sys & Autoexec.bat & warm boots
to Windows. (Ctrl-Alt-Del & "WIN" should NOT be used.)
mm
Yes.
>I just did so on your recommendation. (You're right-- that LIST
>command is really something. So... thanks!) But I haven't had the
I forgot to mention that when text editors still had limits on how
long a file can be (maybe some still do?) List had not limit on how
long a file could be, although a 50 meg file won't fully show up
immediately. But iirc a 1 meg file does.
When searching a whole directory, with list *.*, just say F and then N
enough times, then escape for the next file, then N again for next.
Escape, N, escape, N, etc. will look for the same string in every
file. Far faster than anything in Windows. Also good to way W when
you start, to wrap the lines to 80 characters. If you say W at the
start, it's good until you end that execution of List. Unless you say
W again.
I used to crash a lot in win3.1, and it would often take some of my
files with it. I woudl have to run scandisk and save the unallocated
clusters as files, and then go through them with List, looking for
data that had disappeared.
Win98 and XP still crash occaionally, but I don't think they've ever
deleted one of my files, or any other file, in the process.
More below.
That's where I got it, but even if it doesn't belong in an icon, it's
not the cause of any problem. Because before that, I had no 4dos
icon, with or without /p and I didnn't get 4dos when I ran "command".
And I still don't, but that's the way it was 10 years ago also.
> Here is what the install added to the bottom of my
>files...
>
>Config.sys
>-------------
>shell=C:\JPSOFT\4DOS\4dos.com /p
>
>Autoexec.bat
>-----------------
>SET PATH=C:\JPSOFT\4DOS;%PATH%
>set comspec=C:\JPSOFT\4DOS\4dos.com
Yes, all this was done by the 4dos 7.5 install.
>> Doing that makes it run autoexec.bat again, maybe because of the /p.
>
>According to 4DOS HELP, "/p" does cause Autoexec.bat to run again, & it
>makes the DOS window permanent. Can you exit it after you start it that
>way?
Yes. It doesn't seem different from any other 4DOS called from win98.
Besides running authoexec.bat, I also get these instructions
afterwards:
"You are already running Windows.
_ Press ALT+ENTER to switch this MS-DOS prompt between
windowed and full-screen display.
_ Type Exit and press Enter to quit this MS-DOS prompt and
return to Windows.
_ Press ALT+TAB to switch to Windows or another application."
That's actually pretty helpful because I had forgotten the first one,
and like I saw, one can copy and paste from a dosbox, but not from a
full-screen dos screen.
So maybe I'll remove the /p, maybe not.
>Also, if you open more than one that way, I think more resources
>are used, & they may not share the global settings.
I haven't done it so far, but I used to sometimes open both MSDos and
4Dos, because they original msdos commands are sometimes useful.
I don't use global settings anymore, maybe I never did. I did have a
long list of bat files that did a lot of good things. They are on the
disk that started making noises, but they are also on earlier hard
disks, and I could go get them.
Another advantage of 4dos ist that it with the right parameter, it
will show the files of a directory in their unsorted order. IIRC
MSDos won't do this. The unsorted order is usually or always the
order in which the files were added to the directory. What I never
got straight is, if a file is deleted from a directory, will a file
that is added later get its entry in the spot that the deleted file
had, and thus appear earlier than it would have in unsorted order, if
the most recently added always came last. Was that clear? Anyone
know what the answer is.
Bill Blanton
> Another advantage of 4dos ist that it with the right parameter, it
> will show the files of a directory in their unsorted order. IIRC
> MSDos won't do this.
I seem to remember that it used to be the default for MSDOS.
Pre Windows days. (not sure though).
Anyway..
Do a:
DIR /-o
Not explicitly documented in the DIR /? screen, but "o" being the "sort"
switch, "-o" will do an "unsort".
> The unsorted order is usually or always the
> order in which the files were added to the directory. What I never
> got straight is, if a file is deleted from a directory, will a file
> that is added later get its entry in the spot that the deleted file
> had,
Yes, assuming DOS services are being used. There's no reason to scan the
dir structure any further than to find the first empty "slot".
In DOS you can test this by doing
DIR /-o
DEL (some file in the middle)
COPY CON XXXXXXXXX.XXX (type a char, then F6)
Then do another DIR /-o
It's likely the Windows services would do the same, but in that case you would
have to scan to find multiple empty slots to house a certain size LFN,
if needed.
Bill Blanton
> mm wrote:
> You're right-- that LIST
> command is really something.
>> My personal favorite is the List command, which will display the
>> internals of any file, in hex or text. List *.* will display every
>> file in a directory, only needing esc to go to the next file.
If it's the List program I think you're talking about, that was one of
the "must have" programs from the DOS days..
mm
I'm still living in the 50's! I've looked, and not found anything as
good, in win98 or XP. Not for free and afaict, not for money. It was
when I described what I wanted in an XP group that someone reminded me
of 4dos. And it's free.
>
mm
<bbla...@REMOVEmagicnet.net> wrote:
And it's free NOW, at least for personal use.
First from my pov it came included with Norton Utilities, then I
bought a copy of 4DOS and Take Comamand.
They have other products they sell. One of them I bought years ago,
Take Command, but frankly never got any use out of it. But other
people would.
mm
<bbla...@REMOVEmagicnet.net> wrote:
>"mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:e15s85lmd9muknvfn...@4ax.com...
>
>> Another advantage of 4dos ist that it with the right parameter, it
>> will show the files of a directory in their unsorted order. IIRC
>> MSDos won't do this.
>
>I seem to remember that it used to be the default for MSDOS.
>Pre Windows days. (not sure though).
>
>Anyway..
>
>Do a:
>DIR /-o
>Not explicitly documented in the DIR /? screen, but "o" being the "sort"
>switch, "-o" will do an "unsort".
I didn't know about that. Yes, most of 4DOS uses msdos functions, or
at least it seems to. I don't understand how they can do this without
violating MS's copyrights. Or maybe they use basic cpu commands.
Writing that would be a lot of work iiuc. There's a lot I don't know.
>
>> The unsorted order is usually or always the
>> order in which the files were added to the directory. What I never
>> got straight is, if a file is deleted from a directory, will a file
>> that is added later get its entry in the spot that the deleted file
>> had,
>
>Yes, assuming DOS services are being used. There's no reason to scan the
>dir structure any further than to find the first empty "slot".
>
>In DOS you can test this by doing
>DIR /-o
>DEL (some file in the middle)
>COPY CON XXXXXXXXX.XXX (type a char, then F6)
>Then do another DIR /-o
I could have done this, but I never did, despite the large amount of
time I spent time fiddling around the first 10 years.
Thanks.
>It's likely the Windows services would do the same, but in that case you would
>have to scan to find multiple empty slots to house a certain size LFN,
>if needed.
Very interesting.
PCR
Hmm.
>>I just did so on your recommendation. (You're right-- that LIST
>>command is really something. So... thanks!) But I haven't had the
>
> I forgot to mention that when text editors still had limits on how
> long a file can be (maybe some still do?) List had not limit on how
> long a file could be, although a 50 meg file won't fully show up
> immediately. But iirc a 1 meg file does.
I remember that used to be a problem. I think DOS EDIT is good too with
size & has a read-only switch for safety. But I don't see a hex option,
& it isn't as easy to use or as powerful as LIST. FIND is good too but
sometimes will fail & also would be harder to handle than LIST for what
you describe. Now I see 4DOS has added FFIND, but I'm having trouble
having it find a text string. So I'm not sure anything matches LIST for
what you had to do.
> When searching a whole directory, with list *.*, just say F and then N
> enough times, then escape for the next file, then N again for next.
> Escape, N, escape, N, etc. will look for the same string in every
> file. Far faster than anything in Windows. Also good to way W when
> you start, to wrap the lines to 80 characters. If you say W at the
> start, it's good until you end that execution of List. Unless you say
> W again.
Good to find a missing letter in a name as you said earlier.
> I used to crash a lot in win3.1, and it would often take some of my
> files with it. I woudl have to run scandisk and save the unallocated
> clusters as files, and then go through them with List, looking for
> data that had disappeared.
>
> Win98 and XP still crash occaionally, but I don't think they've ever
> deleted one of my files, or any other file, in the process.
I've seen it, but usually those are intermediate &/or temporary &
useless files.
> More below.
OK.
It put a 4DOS shortcut for me at... "START, Programs, 4DOS".
I R-Dragged & copied it to the QuickLaunch bar.
However, as I said, I can click the old shortcuts & still get 4DOS. Ah,
here's what does it! In all of my shortcuts to DOS & in both of my
Command.com's, themselves, -- except for DOSPRMPT.pif -- I had written
DOSKEY into...
"Shortcut Properties, Program tab, Batch File box"
Even putting just REM in that box (4DOS doesn't need DOSKEY)-- STILL the
shortcut will open 4DOS instead of Command.com. Leaving the Batch File
box blank allows Command.com to run as coded in the Cmd Line box. So
that's the end of that mystery! Except I don't know why!
So now I can more easily open a Command.com. I don't have to go hunting
for DOSPRMPT.pif. Afterwards, I need to type DOSKEY at the prompt for
that functionality, though. Hymph! But I'm hardly ever going to do it!
>> Here is what the install added to the bottom of my
>>files...
>>
>>Config.sys
>>-------------
>>shell=C:\JPSOFT\4DOS\4dos.com /p
>>
>>Autoexec.bat
>>-----------------
>>SET PATH=C:\JPSOFT\4DOS;%PATH%
>>set comspec=C:\JPSOFT\4DOS\4dos.com
>
> Yes, all this was done by the 4dos 7.5 install.
All right. That's good, then.
>>> Doing that makes it run autoexec.bat again, maybe because of the /p.
>>
>>According to 4DOS HELP, "/p" does cause Autoexec.bat to run again, &
>>it makes the DOS window permanent. Can you exit it after you start it
>>that way?
>
> Yes. It doesn't seem different from any other 4DOS called from win98.
>
> Besides running authoexec.bat, I also get these instructions
> afterwards:
>
> "You are already running Windows.
>
> _ Press ALT+ENTER to switch this MS-DOS prompt between
> windowed and full-screen display.
> _ Type Exit and press Enter to quit this MS-DOS prompt and
> return to Windows.
> _ Press ALT+TAB to switch to Windows or another application."
>
> That's actually pretty helpful because I had forgotten the first one,
> and like I saw, one can copy and paste from a dosbox, but not from a
> full-screen dos screen.
>
> So maybe I'll remove the /p, maybe not.
Yep, I see those extra words too when I click one with a /p. And they
are helpful. I've also noticed I can exit the 4DOS box the same as one
without the /p (permanent). So, it doesn't seem to be any more permanent
than one without it. I'm not sure what to think anymore. But I don't
like to see Autoexec.bat run twice! Maybe continue to do it until you've
fully memorized those words. Alt+ENTER works whether /p is used or not.
>>Also, if you open more than one that way, I think more resources
>>are used, & they may not share the global settings.
>
> I haven't done it so far, but I used to sometimes open both MSDos and
> 4Dos, because they original msdos commands are sometimes useful.
Hmm.
> I don't use global settings anymore, maybe I never did. I did have a
> long list of bat files that did a lot of good things. They are on the
> disk that started making noises, but they are also on earlier hard
> disks, and I could go get them.
Did they work well under 4DOS or only under Command.com? I guess they
could be adjusted anyhow.
I haven't looked much yet at global settings, myself, really. But I'd
probably want the capability. I think, for that, all you need to do is
ensure you use /p in the SHELL command in Config.sys. Possibly I misread
that using a second /p in shortcuts musses it.
> Another advantage of 4dos ist that it with the right parameter, it
> will show the files of a directory in their unsorted order. IIRC
> MSDos won't do this.
I believe the original DIR lists them in the order they appear in the
directory, unless one uses the /o option. For sure they don't appear to
be in any sensible order...
CPQDRV <DIR> 11-15-99 2:28p CPQDRV
COMMAND COM 93,890 04-23-99 10:22p COMMAND.COM
WINDOWS <DIR> 07-22-99 12:09a WINDOWS
PROGRA~1 <DIR> 07-22-99 12:13a Program Files
AUTOEXEC SYD 527 08-21-09 5:53p AUTOEXEC.SYD
In 4DOS, I can get the same order with /ou (unsorted). Otherwise, it
wants to put directories first & sort it all alphabetically. So, they
both can do that.
> The unsorted order is usually or always the
> order in which the files were added to the directory. What I never
> got straight is, if a file is deleted from a directory, will a file
> that is added later get its entry in the spot that the deleted file
> had, and thus appear earlier than it would have in unsorted order, if
> the most recently added always came last. Was that clear? Anyone
> know what the answer is.
If you do a Defrag, the deleted files will lose their directory slot, &
one will no longer be able to recover them with a normal undelete
program like Restoration. Chances are the file itself also will be
overwritten. Otherwise... the directory entry & FAT space are intact, &
chances are they don't get reused immediately. The longer you go, the
less likely they'll be there, though. They are available & eventually
will be used. That's all I know/remember. Cquirke was smarter for that.
See if he put something here...
http://cquirke.mvps.org/9x/
--
PCR
> "mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:e15s85lmd9muknvfn...@4ax.com...
>
>> Another advantage of 4dos ist that it with the right parameter, it
>> will show the files of a directory in their unsorted order. IIRC
>> MSDos won't do this.
>
> I seem to remember that it used to be the default for MSDOS.
> Pre Windows days. (not sure though).
>
> Anyway..
>
> Do a:
> DIR /-o
> Not explicitly documented in the DIR /? screen, but "o" being the
> "sort"
> switch, "-o" will do an "unsort".
That's surest, maybe. But there's no need to use it, unless one has set
the DIRCMD variable to use /o. Then, yea, /-o overrides it.
>> The unsorted order is usually or always the
>> order in which the files were added to the directory. What I never
>> got straight is, if a file is deleted from a directory, will a file
>> that is added later get its entry in the spot that the deleted file
>> had,
>
> Yes, assuming DOS services are being used. There's no reason to scan
> the
> dir structure any further than to find the first empty "slot".
>
> In DOS you can test this by doing
> DIR /-o
> DEL (some file in the middle)
> COPY CON XXXXXXXXX.XXX (type a char, then F6)
> Then do another DIR /-o
C:\>dir windows\temp
...snip
NULLSO~1 DLL 59,392 03-18-09 9:57p NullsoftHelper.dll
JUNK TXT 110,592 03-17-07 9:23p junk.txt
CONTROL XML 12,818 07-07-09 6:06p control.xml
...snip
C:\>dir windows\temp
...snip
NULLSO~1 DLL 59,392 03-18-09 9:57p NullsoftHelper.dll
XXXXXX~1 XXX 1 08-22-09 12:06a XXXXXXXXX.XXX
CONTROL XML 12,818 07-07-09 6:06p control.xml
...snip
Hmm, that seems to be true. After junk.txt was deleted, it showed up in
my undelete program (Restoration). After xxxxxx~1.xxx was written,
Junk.txt disappeared from Restoration. But it's on a per directory
basis. So, you've still got a chance, if you don't immediately write to
same directory.
> It's likely the Windows services would do the same, but in that case
> you would
> have to scan to find multiple empty slots to house a certain size LFN,
> if needed.
OK. So you've got an even better chance in Windows that it will hang
around.
Klaus Meinhard
> I didn't know about that. Yes, most of 4DOS uses msdos functions, or
> at least it seems to. I don't understand how they can do this without
> violating MS's copyrights. Or maybe they use basic cpu commands.
> Writing that would be a lot of work iiuc. There's a lot I don't know.
4DOS is a command interpreter like command.com, though much more
powerful. It uses its own code to implement DOS commands like COPY, DEL,
etc., so copyright violation is not an issue. You can write your own
complete DOS, making it as compatible to MS DOS as you can, as long as
you don't use Microsoft's own code (see the FreeDOS project). BTW, the
command names (COPY, DEL etc.) are older than MS DOS and aren't
copyrighted (see CPM).
Best Regards,
* Klaus Meinhard *
<www.4dos.info>
J. P. Gilliver (John)
As Mr. Torvalds did with the Kernel of Unix, of course.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **
Real programmers don't document. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to
understand.
Bill Blanton
> Bill Blanton wrote:
>> "mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>> news:e15s85lmd9muknvfn...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> Another advantage of 4dos ist that it with the right parameter, it
>>> will show the files of a directory in their unsorted order. IIRC
>>> MSDos won't do this.
>>
>> I seem to remember that it used to be the default for MSDOS.
>> Pre Windows days. (not sure though).
>> Do a:
>> DIR /-o
>> Not explicitly documented in the DIR /? screen, but "o" being the
>> "sort"
>> switch, "-o" will do an "unsort".
>
> That's surest, maybe. But there's no need to use it, unless one has set
> the DIRCMD variable to use /o. Then, yea, /-o overrides it.
Right! I'd forgotten about setting the dircmd variable. So unsorted is
the default, as you say.
>> Yes, assuming DOS services are being used. There's no reason to scan the
>> dir structure any further than to find the first empty "slot".
>>
>> In DOS you can test this by doing
>> DIR /-o
>> DEL (some file in the middle)
>> COPY CON XXXXXXXXX.XXX (type a char, then F6)
>> Then do another DIR /-o
>
> C:\>dir windows\temp
> ...snip
> NULLSO~1 DLL 59,392 03-18-09 9:57p NullsoftHelper.dll
> JUNK TXT 110,592 03-17-07 9:23p junk.txt
> CONTROL XML 12,818 07-07-09 6:06p control.xml
> ...snip
>
> C:\>dir windows\temp
> ...snip
> NULLSO~1 DLL 59,392 03-18-09 9:57p NullsoftHelper.dll
> XXXXXX~1 XXX 1 08-22-09 12:06a XXXXXXXXX.XXX
> CONTROL XML 12,818 07-07-09 6:06p control.xml
> ...snip
You could also confirm that in a disk editor.
> Hmm, that seems to be true. After junk.txt was deleted, it showed up in
> my undelete program (Restoration). After xxxxxx~1.xxx was written,
> Junk.txt disappeared from Restoration. But it's on a per directory
> basis. So, you've still got a chance, if you don't immediately write to
> same directory.
And you don't overwrite the freed up data clusters.
Bill Blanton
> On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:31:54 -0400, "Bill Blanton"
> <bbla...@REMOVEmagicnet.net> wrote:
>
>>"PCR" <pcr...@netzero.net> wrote in message news:eHaPFufI...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> mm wrote:
>>
>>> You're right-- that LIST
>>> command is really something.
>>
>>>> My personal favorite is the List command, which will display the
>>>> internals of any file, in hex or text. List *.* will display every
>>>> file in a directory, only needing esc to go to the next file.
>>
>>If it's the List program I think you're talking about, that was one of
>>the "must have" programs from the DOS days..
>
> And it's free NOW, at least for personal use.
>
> First from my pov it came included with Norton Utilities, then I
> bought a copy of 4DOS and Take Comamand.
I think the NU had a similar program, but this is the one that I
remember using:
PCR
> "PCR" <pcr...@netzero.net> wrote in message
> news:eRYT1DuI...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>> "mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>>> news:e15s85lmd9muknvfn...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>> Another advantage of 4dos ist that it with the right parameter, it
>>>> will show the files of a directory in their unsorted order. IIRC
>>>> MSDos won't do this.
>>>
>>> I seem to remember that it used to be the default for MSDOS.
>>> Pre Windows days. (not sure though).
>
>>> Do a:
>>> DIR /-o
>>> Not explicitly documented in the DIR /? screen, but "o" being the
>>> "sort"
>>> switch, "-o" will do an "unsort".
>>
>> That's surest, maybe. But there's no need to use it, unless one has
>> set the DIRCMD variable to use /o. Then, yea, /-o overrides it.
>
> Right! I'd forgotten about setting the dircmd variable. So unsorted is
> the default, as you say.
Uh-huh. Looks like 4DOS allows DIRCMD to be imitated using the much more
powerful ALIAS capability.
>>> Yes, assuming DOS services are being used. There's no reason to
>>> scan the dir structure any further than to find the first empty
>>> "slot".
>>>
>>> In DOS you can test this by doing
>>> DIR /-o
>>> DEL (some file in the middle)
>>> COPY CON XXXXXXXXX.XXX (type a char, then F6)
>>> Then do another DIR /-o
>>
>> C:\>dir windows\temp
>> ...snip
>> NULLSO~1 DLL 59,392 03-18-09 9:57p NullsoftHelper.dll
>> JUNK TXT 110,592 03-17-07 9:23p junk.txt
>> CONTROL XML 12,818 07-07-09 6:06p control.xml
>> ...snip
>>
>> C:\>dir windows\temp
>> ...snip
>> NULLSO~1 DLL 59,392 03-18-09 9:57p NullsoftHelper.dll
>> XXXXXX~1 XXX 1 08-22-09 12:06a XXXXXXXXX.XXX
>> CONTROL XML 12,818 07-07-09 6:06p control.xml
>> ...snip
>
> You could also confirm that in a disk editor.
I'm happy enough as is.
>> Hmm, that seems to be true. After junk.txt was deleted, it showed up
>> in my undelete program (Restoration). After xxxxxx~1.xxx was written,
>> Junk.txt disappeared from Restoration. But it's on a per directory
>> basis. So, you've still got a chance, if you don't immediately write
>> to same directory.
>
> And you don't overwrite the freed up data clusters.
Yep. It's always a good idea to keep copies.
Bill Blanton
> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>>> In DOS you can test this by doing
>>>> DIR /-o
>>>> DEL (some file in the middle)
>>>> COPY CON XXXXXXXXX.XXX (type a char, then F6)
>>>> Then do another DIR /-o
>>>
>>> C:\>dir windows\temp
>>> ...snip
>>> NULLSO~1 DLL 59,392 03-18-09 9:57p NullsoftHelper.dll
>>> JUNK TXT 110,592 03-17-07 9:23p junk.txt
>>> CONTROL XML 12,818 07-07-09 6:06p control.xml
>>> ...snip
>>>
>>> C:\>dir windows\temp
>>> ...snip
>>> NULLSO~1 DLL 59,392 03-18-09 9:57p NullsoftHelper.dll
>>> XXXXXX~1 XXX 1 08-22-09 12:06a XXXXXXXXX.XXX
>>> CONTROL XML 12,818 07-07-09 6:06p control.xml
>>> ...snip
>>
>> You could also confirm that in a disk editor.
>
> I'm happy enough as is.
I just noticed that you created a long name XXXXXXXXX.XXX.
Luckily junk.txt was an LFN too.. or there'd be some splainin
to do.
PCR
That might get confusing to contemplate. Suppose a LFN file is deleted &
replaced a SFN file. If the SFN file is now deleted, I guess the slot
might be usable for a LFN.
Bill Blanton
If it requires the same or less number as the first LFN. The only thing
that compacts the directory structure is a defrag.
PCR
So that's another element of unpredictability as to whether a deleted
file will be there when one goes looking.
> The only
> thing
> that compacts the directory structure is a defrag.
Right. Restoration can no longer find deleted files after a Defrag-- at
least, not the "regular" ones. It has a box to check to "include used
clusters by other files". I sense that option is scanning the hard drive
& doesn't depend on directories or even the FAT tables. It finds things
like "lears it.sel", "snipped.or", "he parti.tio". Let's see what one
of those looks like... plain junk!
Sjouke Burry
> In Win98, where do you put the config.sys and autoexec lines for a
> dosbox?
>
> I need to use a shell and/or set command before I go from win98 to a
> dos box:
>
> shell=C:\PROGRAMS\4DOS\4dos.com /p
> and/or
> set comspec=C:\PROGRAMS\4DOS\4dos.com
>
>
> 4DOS I just found out is available free now for DOS, Win98, and even
> winXP. (I have paid for it already, but can't find the disks to
> install it in this computer.)
>
> The installation in XP went fine, including its putting an icon in the
> QuckLaunch bar. Although it does have the problem that too many
> operations are displayed in the GUI and requires alt-tab to get back
> to the dosbox. There is no native dos in XP so they pretty much had
> to get the box to work.
>
> My XP is broken now and until I get it fixed, I'm back to win98SE. A
> different version of 4DOS is available for that, and installation was
> easy and it works fine in native DOS.
>
> The last time I did this I knew how, but it's been 10 years or so and
> I can't remember. :(
on a floppy, make a 2gb fat16 partition on drive 0 or 1,
which will be recognized as drive C when you boot from the floppy
(other partitions, fat32 and ntfs will be ignored) and you are ready
to go.
The above is the configuration I regularly use.
If you want to use a fat32 partition, make a bootfloppy with win98,
and if you want to see an ntfs partition, google for ntfsdos.exe
or this link:
> http://www.ntfs.com/downloads/NtfsFloppySetup.exe