help needed ! i am new at the demo scene !

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Melissa

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Oct 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/30/96
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hi everyone.

my name is melissa i am 20 years old and a new coder in the demo scene
.

i just start to get into it . i allways like those demos and choose to
get part of it.

now i am a pascal/c++/asm coder and i have a lot of stuff to ask you
how to and where to.

if someone can PLEASE try to help me and not to sent me to
ftp.cdrom.com or x2ftp . because i allready visit those places and i
need more help then that.

ok , here is my questions ;)

1. how can i make a texure mapping (the fast way) on a polygon (not
the old 256x256 trick) also if someone can sent me a source ;)
2. how can i make a hidden polygon vector ?
3. there is a good way to learn how to build a mod player ?

those all my questions !

please help , i hope to finish my demo till assembler 97 and you all
see me there ! ;)

thanks,

Melissa <WonderGirl>

eu...@netvision.net


Nicholas Vinen

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Oct 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/30/96
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Melissa (eu...@netvision.net.il) wrote:
: hi everyone.

: my name is melissa i am 20 years old and a new coder in the demo scene
: .

...

: please help , i hope to finish my demo till assembler 97 and you all


: see me there ! ;)

: thanks,

: Melissa <WonderGirl>

: eu...@netvision.net


Hmm...well I think I just figured out a reason why so few women seem to
be into demos properly...having a mentor really helps :) it's a
catch 22...no women to teach women...so what I suggest you do is hop onto
IRC on AnotherNet (sunrise.ca.us.another.net, together.vt.us.another.net,
neato.ca.us.another.net) and join #coders or, if it's empty, #trax. Then
feel free to ask questions and get realtime feedback :) it's so much
easier learning when you have someone who is helping you properly, not
just answering your posts...

See if you can find someone (like me) who is willing to help teach you
to an extent, and every now and then come back for assistance. With a few
years of experience you'll be going along great :)


HB

Mikko E. Mononen

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Oct 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/30/96
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Melissa (eu...@netvision.net.il) wrote:

: ok , here is my questions ;)

: 1. how can i make a texure mapping (the fast way) on a polygon (not
: the old 256x256 trick) also if someone can sent me a source ;)

See fatmap.txt by Mats Byggmastar. You can find it at x2ftp or
ftp.cdrom.com. Actually it does not matter how big your texture is. It is
just easy to use 256x256 textures. No second shifting needed. But if you
want for example 64x64 textures your inner loop might look something
like this:

/* inner loop from fatmap.txt */
do
{
*dest++ = bitmap[ ((v & 0x3f00) >> 2 ) + ((u & 0x3f00) >> 8) ];
u += du;
v += dv;
}
while(--width);
/* I hope this is right.. */

Also, check Mats' homepage for working source (for watcom c/c++)


: 2. how can i make a hidden polygon vector ?

Do you mean back face culling? If you mean then check:
http://www.dgp.toronto.edu/people/van/courses/csc418/cull.html
I'm not going to explain because I'm such a poor explainer.


: 3. there is a good way to learn how to build a mod player ?

I think coding good isn't so easy so I reccomend to use for example
MikMod or Midas. They both support many file formats and soundcards.


: those all my questions !

: please help , i hope to finish my demo till assembler 97 and you all
: see me there ! ;)

I hope this helps even a little bit.
Good luck and happy coding.

: thanks,

: Melissa <WonderGirl>

: eu...@netvision.net


--mikko
___________________________________________________________________________
! Mikko E. Mononen ! me...@edu.lahti.fi ! memon / iNSiDE !

Paul Hsieh

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Oct 31, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/31/96
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Nicholas Vinen wrote:

> Melissa (eu...@netvision.net.il) wrote:
> Hmm...well I think I just figured out a reason why so few women
> seem to be into demos properly...having a mentor really helps :) it's
> a catch 22...no women to teach women...so what I suggest you do is hop
> onto IRC on AnotherNet (sunrise.ca.us.another.net,
> together.vt.us.another.net, neato.ca.us.another.net) and join #coders
> or, if it's empty, #trax.

Perhaps the reason why few women seem to be into demos properly is
because society always feels they have to take exception to women
entering male dominated fields, or that they have to be treated special
in some way. Why don't you just answer the questions?

> > ok , here is my questions ;)
> >
> > 1. how can i make a texure mapping (the fast way) on a polygon (not
> > the old 256x256 trick) also if someone can sent me a source ;)

This is discussed in rec.games.programmer and comp.graphics.algorithm
quite often. Chris Heckbert's article from "Game Developer Magazine"
is a good place to start.

> > 2. how can i make a hidden polygon vector ?

Well, I am not familliar with the terminology "polygon vector", but
other important polygon rendering considerations are clipping to the
visible region and backface culling. The clipping algorithm is beyond
me at the moment but can be looked up in the comp.graphics.algorithm
FAQ, I'm sure. Backface culling is a matter of calculation the sign
of the "Z" component of the surface normal. Again, the comp.graphics.
algorithm FAQ ought to explain this.

> > 3. there is a good way to learn how to build a mod player ?

I haven't a clue. But the wotsit.uk site gives a description of the
MOD file format (as well as other places.)

--
Paul Hsieh
qed "at" chromatic "dot" com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/9498
Graphics Programmer
Chromatic Research

What I say and what my company says are not always the same thing

Nicholas Vinen

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Oct 31, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/31/96
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Melissa (eu...@netvision.net.il) wrote:
: h...@cafu.fl.net.au (Nicholas Vinen) wrote:

: >Melissa (eu...@netvision.net.il) wrote:
: >: hi everyone.

: >: my name is melissa i am 20 years old and a new coder in the demo scene
: >: .

: > ...

: >: please help , i hope to finish my demo till assembler 97 and you all


: >: see me there ! ;)

: >: thanks,

: >: Melissa <WonderGirl>

: >: eu...@netvision.net


: > Hmm...well I think I just figured out a reason why so few women seem to


: >be into demos properly...having a mentor really helps :) it's a
: >catch 22...no women to teach women...so what I suggest you do is hop onto
: >IRC on AnotherNet (sunrise.ca.us.another.net, together.vt.us.another.net,

: >neato.ca.us.another.net) and join #coders or, if it's empty, #trax. Then


: >feel free to ask questions and get realtime feedback :) it's so much
: >easier learning when you have someone who is helping you properly, not
: >just answering your posts...

: > See if you can find someone (like me) who is willing to help teach you
: >to an extent, and every now and then come back for assistance. With a few
: >years of experience you'll be going along great :)


: > HB

: well , first i must say somthing about the WOMEN that not in the
: demoscene .

: i know about 5 girls that LOVE the demo scene , and also like to join
: the demo scene . our little problem , is that we still dont know how
: to find all the stuff . my main task is to put some more females
: there.

I know people who are trying to do the same thing with tracking...good
luck

: even that you the boys are a great coders , i must say ;)

BTW how do you explain your account being billed to a man? (as a
previous poster's finger revealed)...mighty suspicious :)

: thanks , i will go there..

: maybe i will catch you there ?

With any luck...just try /whois hb and if I'm not asleep I should be
there :)

: thanks,

: Melissa <WonderGirl>

HB

Melissa

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Oct 31, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/31/96
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h...@cafu.fl.net.au (Nicholas Vinen) wrote:

> ...

>: thanks,

>: Melissa <WonderGirl>

>: eu...@netvision.net


> HB

even that you the boys are a great coders , i must say ;)

thanks , i will go there..

maybe i will catch you there ?

thanks,

Melissa <WonderGirl>


Nicholas Vinen

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Oct 31, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/31/96
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Paul Hsieh (nob...@chromatic.com) wrote:

: Nicholas Vinen wrote:
: > Melissa (eu...@netvision.net.il) wrote:
: > Hmm...well I think I just figured out a reason why so few women
...
: > or, if it's empty, #trax.

: Perhaps the reason why few women seem to be into demos properly is

: because society always feels they have to take exception to women
: entering male dominated fields, or that they have to be treated special
: in some way. Why don't you just answer the questions?

Because it's something that I feel is important, as do many people. I
don't like to see people avoiding something they may potentially be
interested in just because of the way it's seen. I know more women are
using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...
I just think we should try and make things a little more fair.


Mark Feldman

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Oct 31, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/31/96
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Nicholas Vinen wrote:

>
> Paul Hsieh (nob...@chromatic.com) wrote:
> : Perhaps the reason why few women seem to be into demos properly is
> : because society always feels they have to take exception to women
> : entering male dominated fields, or that they have to be treated special
> : in some way. Why don't you just answer the questions?
>
> Because it's something that I feel is important, as do many people. I
> don't like to see people avoiding something they may potentially be
> interested in just because of the way it's seen. I know more women are
> using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
> is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...
> I just think we should try and make things a little more fair.

It's all about ego, plain and simple! Whether guys spend all their spare
time working on their cars or putting together a demo, it's for the same
common goal of gaining respect and admiration to feed that ego. Frankly
I think most women just don't crave that kind of attention to the same
extent men do.

Just my 2 cents...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Feldman mailto:pc...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~pcgpe
Activision Studios.....but I speak for myself.

Nicholas Vinen

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Nov 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/1/96
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Mark Feldman (pc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: Nicholas Vinen wrote:
: >
: > Paul Hsieh (nob...@chromatic.com) wrote:
: > : Perhaps the reason why few women seem to be into demos properly is
: > : because society always feels they have to take exception to women
: > : entering male dominated fields, or that they have to be treated special
: > : in some way. Why don't you just answer the questions?
: >
: > Because it's something that I feel is important, as do many people. I
: > don't like to see people avoiding something they may potentially be
: > interested in just because of the way it's seen. I know more women are
: > using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
: > is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...
: > I just think we should try and make things a little more fair.

: It's all about ego, plain and simple! Whether guys spend all their spare
: time working on their cars or putting together a demo, it's for the same
: common goal of gaining respect and admiration to feed that ego. Frankly
: I think most women just don't crave that kind of attention to the same
: extent men do.

Well that's not why I do it :)
Then again I'm not your typical "man"...I have some very female
qualities about me (don't jump to any conclusions though :) )

I do it because it's art, I want to give people something they can
enjoy. Looking at the modern demoscene I think people will enjoy my next
production which I am halfway through or so :) Hopefully a non-boring
demo.

Anyway, I think that certain qualties seen as being "female" are
important to making demos. If you don't put emotion and care into your
demo it will turn out like so many seem to be recently, boring vector
shows...

: Just my 2 cents...

Well I'll throw in $2 :)

: -----------------------------------------------------------------------


: Mark Feldman mailto:pc...@ix.netcom.com
: http://www.netcom.com/~pcgpe
: Activision Studios.....but I speak for myself.

--
HB

_mage_

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Nov 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/3/96
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Nicholas Macsi wrote:
>
> Can I be really ignorant and curiously facinated at the same time and ask
> what on earth is a demo and whats the big deal with women doing it????
>
> Nick Macsi
> Programmer(Games) wanna be
> If I could I would but I cant so I will try anyway!PC DEMOS FAQ, Version 1.82
The official FAQ of the Usenet Newsgroup comp.sys.ibm.pc.demos
This FAQ was last modified on: 5/11/96
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+DEMOS+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

1.0 What is a Demo?

A Demo is a program that displays a sound, music, and light show,
usually in 3D. Demos are very fun to watch, because they seemingly do
things that aren't possible on the machine they were programmed on.

Essentially, demos "show off". They do so in usually one, two, or all
three of three following methods:

* They show off the computer's hardware abilities (3D objects,
multi-channel sound, etc.)
* They show off the creative abilities of the demo group
(artists, musicians)
* They show off the programmer's abilities (fast 3D shaded
polygons, complex motion, etc.)

Demos are an art form. They blend mathematics, programming skill, and
creativity into something incredible to watch and listen to.

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

1.0.1 Where did/do demos come from?

Demos started as loaders for cracked games (a loader is a small
program that was used to identify who had cracked the game you were
currently (illegally) playing.) This gradually expanded into being
programmed just for fun, or as a way for the programmer to show
off.

You can find more expanded information on the history of demos at:
http://www.cdrom.com/pub/demos/hornet/html/demo_history.html

Also See FAQ 5.1.

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

1.1 How/Where do I get a demo?

Many demos can be found on local BBSes, but if you have Internet access,
you can easily get them off Internet sites. You need to have ftp access
to a couple of ftp sites. Here are some listings:

ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/demos A huge site in the U.S; carries diverse
programs related to music, graphics,
magazines, programming info/source code.

Some other sites are: (Some of these are mirrors of ftp.cdrom.com)

ftp.luth.se
ftp.sun.ac.za
ftp.uwp.edu
wuarchive.wustl.edu
ftp.arosnet.se
hagar.arts.kuleuven.ac.be
ftp.uni-paderborn.de

Demos are usually in a subdirectory similar to /demo, /demos,
/pub/demos or /pub/msdos/demos.

Here's some more examples: /pub/demos/groups or /pub/demos/alpha

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>_mage_
>leg...@inreach.com

Javier Arevalo

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Nov 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/3/96
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h...@cafu.fl.net.au (Nicholas Vinen) wrote:

>using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
>is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...

I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
or female friends usually do only practical things.


Seeyanara
Jare/Iguana


Nicholas Macsi

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Nov 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/4/96
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Nicholas Vinen

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Nov 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/5/96
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Nicholas Macsi (ma...@spirit.com.au) wrote:
: Can I be really ignorant and curiously facinated at the same time and ask

: what on earth is a demo and whats the big deal with women doing it????

An answer to what a demo is has already been posted...as to women,
well, for some reason few women seem to be interested in actively
participating in making demos or anything related...most people would like
to see that change. There's no reason why it has to be male dominated.


weikel

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Nov 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/5/96
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Javier Arevalo (ja...@jet.es) wrote:
: h...@cafu.fl.net.au (Nicholas Vinen) wrote:

I can't think of anything more practical than learning to program.
I agree that fewer women will program for "fun" without hoping to
make a career of it. I've known men who work at $5/hr jobs and
write assembly code as a hobby. Actually...I was in that boat
myself... In any event, I think that women enjoy programming, but
think of it as serious stuff.

Chris Hecker

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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ja...@jet.es (Javier Arevalo) writes:
>I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
>Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
>are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
>or female friends usually do only practical things.

I think this is true, but it's a learned thing, not an inherent one.
When I was a kid I took everything apart (and usually didn't put it
back together quite right, but that's another story), and I was
actually encouraged to do this by my parents and society. This
intellectual curiosity is the main reason I play around with computers
and math and whatnot. Most women are not raised that way, and so they
don't do it when they're older. I think [hope] this is changing, and
things will even out.

Chris


Nicholas Vinen

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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weikel (wei...@rohan.sdsu.edu) wrote:

: Javier Arevalo (ja...@jet.es) wrote:
: : h...@cafu.fl.net.au (Nicholas Vinen) wrote:

: : >using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
: : >is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...

: : I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.


: : Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
: : are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
: : or female friends usually do only practical things.

: I can't think of anything more practical than learning to program.


: I agree that fewer women will program for "fun" without hoping to
: make a career of it. I've known men who work at $5/hr jobs and
: write assembly code as a hobby. Actually...I was in that boat
: myself... In any event, I think that women enjoy programming, but
: think of it as serious stuff.

Well the sad thing is that the few good programmers there are around
mostly started out doing it for fun, that's how you learn many of the
important things. Very sadly, most people who are taught to program never
actually understand it properly because they are taught wrong. Imagine
what's going to happen in a few years when most CS graduates are going to
know Java but nothing medium or low level *sigh* ... so much for p6, p7s
etc...they will be no faster than our 486s were with real software.

Random lamer (feel free to flame)

sha...@nlc.net.au

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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This is an interesting topic, out of 7 people I know who can code
(BASIC doesn't count), only one is female. ( mailto:da...@nlc.net.au ) I
think the situation is similar to the one seen in engineering courses,
where as much as 95% of the students are male in some classes.
Also, on the note of Java and other abstract languages, I think that no
matter how good hardware gets, some twit will always manage to write a
program that is slow, and not because it does an very complex
mathematical task. On the other hand, there will always be some freak
who spends four months hand-optimising half the program in assembler,
and uses every clock to the max. It's up to the user to buy the better
program.

--
. . . the Lord Shaman

------------------------------------------------------------------
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
http://www.nlc.net.au/~shaman or mailto:sha...@nlc.net.au

------------------------------------------------------------------

Petri Kuittinen

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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ja...@jet.es (Javier Arevalo) writes:

> I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
> Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever.

This is an important thing to notice. My observations support your
statement. I don't know if this is caused by our society or by a real
difference between male and female thinking. Probably both.


/eye

--
<(O)> Petri Kuittinen, alias The Eye of Brainwash Company <(O)>
<(O)> ADDRESS: Timpurinkuja 1 C 39, SF-02600 Espoo, Finland <(O)>
<(O)> EMAIL: e...@niksula.cs.hut.fi, PHONE: 90-5472380 <(O)>
~I like work; it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours.

Joshua Boyd

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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My sister was encouraged to take things apart and to explore etc. She
abhores computers (strange, considering how many my family own, 8, with a
new one coming early next year) and strongly dislikes math and science, and
most things pertaining to logic.

Chris Hecker <che...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<checkerE...@netcom.com>...


> ja...@jet.es (Javier Arevalo) writes:
> >I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.

> >Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
> >are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
> >or female friends usually do only practical things.
>

Tonya Pope

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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From a female perspective, I have to agree with all of your
observations. I have been the ONLY female in a room of over 40 males in
one particular electrical engineering course. There were only three
(including myself) out of 33 graduating the semester I did in EE/ECE.
The workplace was the same way: 10 women in my department of over 100
at Lockheed.

But I have to agree with Chris--I believe it has a lot more to do with
the way you're raised than anything inherit.

I had a matchbox racetrack at 4, a HO model trainset at 9, built model
airplanes all during elementary/jr.high; got my first computer in 8th
grade--a TRS80 with 4K of memory! I taught myself how to program on it
and was tutoring the 'guys' all during high school.

Not to say that I was a tomboy--I also was trained in classical ballet
and have played piano all my life (things which, I believe, help make my
programming more creative.)

Nevertheless, I was raised with the belief that I could do ANYTHING I
wanted (despite some male chauvinist teachers).

And to the credit of all you guys out there--I have not met a male
chauvinist yet amongst any of my colleagues in the programming world!
Obviously, your heads and shoulders above many other industries I've had
the displeasure to work in.

Tonya Pope

Matt Pritchard

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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If I may thow in another factor:

I believe that female programmers (and engineers in general) are
underrepresented in smaller companies, in part because the TI's, Intel's
and EDS's of the world _VERY_ actively recruit them.. not because they
are inherently better or cheaper, but to increase their compliance
with laws that mandate "diversity" & "equal opportunity" reduce their
exposure to legal action over said issues.

At the last company I was at (350 employyes, had offices in California),
the Boss's secretary was classified as "Programming" to increase the
ratios.

(Hmm, this message supposedly is trying to post to three invalid newsgroups)
--
-Matt P

_______________________________________________________________________________
Matt Pritchard | Antique Computer & Game System Collector
matt...@netcom.com | Assembly Language Programming Guru
via Dallas, Tx dialup | Article Writer/Game Programmer/Developer

Chris Hecker

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Nov 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/7/96
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"Joshua Boyd" <bud...@aol.com> writes:
>My sister was encouraged to take things apart and to explore etc. She
>abhores computers (strange, considering how many my family own, 8, with a
>new one coming early next year) and strongly dislikes math and science, and
>most things pertaining to logic.

Sure, my [male] friend Dan was the same way. I'm not saying everyone
who takes apart a clock when they're younger will be a computer genius,
but I am saying that those who are discouraged from doing that sort of
thing _won't_ be computer geniuses.

Chris


Nicholas Vinen

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Nov 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/7/96
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Tonya Pope (ga...@premier.net) wrote:
: From a female perspective, I have to agree with all of your

: Tonya Pope

--

A lot of this reminds me of the testimony of Miss Saigon :) She
probably isn't reading csipd right now so I guess I can speak a bit from
what she has told me...she likes ballet, theatre etc. but likes all sorts
of other things. I really like well-rounded people...people that stray out
of their "gender limitations"...I'm kind of a little like that too.
In her own words, she enjoyed wearing pretty dresses, but insisted on
climing trees in them to catch frogs :) Her mother was interested in
computers and so she was welcome to play with dolls or computers, guess
which she picked :)

Anyway enough of me speaking for someone else...I guess enough of this
whole topic. As long as we can try and even things out a bit...

HB

Kerry

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Nov 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/7/96
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It's soooo hard to find a female coder...
or musician...
Take my sister(and other females I know) for example:
Just workin', drinkin', f*kin', smokin',
watchin' stupid tv, and so...
And yeah, she thinks I'm sicko coz using
pc whole day-night...
Yes, I hear - this doesn't belongs here...

Fabio Bizzetti

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Nov 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/7/96
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You shouldn't care a f*ck about what others do, just do what you like to do.


---------------------------------------
Fabio Bizzetti - bizz...@mbox.vol.it


Tenie Remmel

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Nov 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/7/96
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matt...@netcom.com (Matt Pritchard) wrote:
>If I may thow in another factor:
>
>I believe that female programmers (and engineers in general) are
>underrepresented in smaller companies, in part because the TI's, Intel's
>and EDS's of the world _VERY_ actively recruit them.. not because they
>are inherently better or cheaper, but to increase their compliance
>with laws that mandate "diversity" & "equal opportunity" reduce their
>exposure to legal action over said issues.

I believe that female programmers _are_ better programmers than males.
The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) are
all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other things
also, except physical strength.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tenie Remmel, Author of FREELIB E-mail: tj...@mail.nwlink.com
FREELIB: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/asmutl/freeli22.zip
Snippets: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/asmutl/asnip11.zip
------------------------------------------------------------------------

David Matiskella

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Nov 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/7/96
to

Self selection. Females that aren't overly good tend to drop out of the
engineering. At least thats the impression I got from school. So you get
left with only the best. You are also have to decide what makes a good
programmer which varies depending on who you ask and what you are trying
to do. There is a slightly different set of skills in organizing a million
line program compared with optimizing a 100 line rasterization routine.
The rest of the message is just flame bait.

David Matiskella
mati...@aa.washington.edu

Mike McCarty

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Nov 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/8/96
to

In article <01bbcc00$b4171ae0$a5b946c6@default>,
Joshua Boyd <bud...@aol.com> wrote:
)My sister was encouraged to take things apart and to explore etc. She
)abhores computers (strange, considering how many my family own, 8, with a
)new one coming early next year) and strongly dislikes math and science, and
)most things pertaining to logic.
)
)Chris Hecker <che...@netcom.com> wrote in article
)<checkerE...@netcom.com>...
)> ja...@jet.es (Javier Arevalo) writes:
)> >I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
)> >Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
)> >are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
)> >or female friends usually do only practical things.
)>
)> I think this is true, but it's a learned thing, not an inherent one.
)> When I was a kid I took everything apart (and usually didn't put it
)> back together quite right, but that's another story), and I was
)> actually encouraged to do this by my parents and society. This
)> intellectual curiosity is the main reason I play around with computers
)> and math and whatnot. Most women are not raised that way, and so they
)> don't do it when they're older. I think [hope] this is changing, and
)> things will even out.
)>
)> Chris

I'll go beyond this. There have been experiments performed which pretty
conclusively show that boys are more active, and more attracted to

playing alone or competitively
disasembling/designing machinery

whereas girls are more attracted to

playing together or cooperatively
playing with other children

This has been done in more than one culture, and in more than one place.
One woman has written a book "Genderlects" which pretty conclusively
shows that women and men have different outlooks on life, not culturally
induced, reflected in the strategies they use to parse sentences and
meanings they give to words.

It seems to be something connected to the way our brains are wired
differently.

Mike

--
----
char *p="char *p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}

I don't speak for DSC. <- They make me say that.

Nicholas Vinen

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Nov 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/8/96
to

Tenie Remmel (tj...@mail.nwlink.com) wrote:
: matt...@netcom.com (Matt Pritchard) wrote:
: >If I may thow in another factor:
: >
: >I believe that female programmers (and engineers in general) are
: >underrepresented in smaller companies, in part because the TI's, Intel's
: >and EDS's of the world _VERY_ actively recruit them.. not because they
: >are inherently better or cheaper, but to increase their compliance
: >with laws that mandate "diversity" & "equal opportunity" reduce their
: >exposure to legal action over said issues.

: I believe that female programmers _are_ better programmers than males.
: The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) are
: all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other things
: also, except physical strength.

*sniff* I'm hurt...

Are you saying that I can never be as good as the best female
programmers? :( so much for all that practice and dedicating my life to
it. Oh well, now for something completely different.

: ------------------------------------------------------------------------


: Tenie Remmel, Author of FREELIB E-mail: tj...@mail.nwlink.com
: FREELIB: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/asmutl/freeli22.zip
: Snippets: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/asmutl/asnip11.zip
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------

HB

Andrea Marchini

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Nov 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/8/96
to

Fabio Bizzetti wrote:
>
> Kerry (ke...@fhpv.umb.sk) wrote:
> >It's soooo hard to find a female coder...
> >or musician...
> >Take my sister(and other females I know) for example:
> >Just workin', drinkin', f*kin', smokin',
> >watchin' stupid tv, and so...
> >And yeah, she thinks I'm sicko coz using
> >pc whole day-night...
> >Yes, I hear - this doesn't belongs here...
>
> You shouldn't care a f*ck about what others do, just do what you like to do.

About italian programmer... Andrea in Italy is male name!! :-)))))))

>
> ---------------------------------------
> Fabio Bizzetti - bizz...@mbox.vol.it


Andrea ;-) Marchini

Kerry

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Nov 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/8/96
to

Fabio Bizzetti wrote:
>
> Kerry (ke...@fhpv.umb.sk) wrote:
> >It's soooo hard to find a female coder...
> >or musician...
> >Take my sister(and other females I know) for example:
> >Just workin', drinkin', f*kin', smokin',
> >watchin' stupid tv, and so...
> >And yeah, she thinks I'm sicko coz using
> >pc whole day-night...
> >Yes, I hear - this doesn't belongs here...
>
> You shouldn't care a f*ck about what others do, just do what you like to do.
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Fabio Bizzetti - bizz...@mbox.vol.it

Yeah, you're right...I'm sorry if it sounded as I wanna to tell
the others what they must and what not to do.
I just don't like smokin' and drinkin`... Kerry

Java G

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Nov 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/8/96
to

In article <01bbcc00$b4171ae0$a5b946c6@default>, "Joshua Boyd"

<bud...@aol.com> writes:
|>My sister was encouraged to take things apart and to explore etc. She

|>abhores computers (strange, considering how many my family own, 8, with a

|>new one coming early next year) and strongly dislikes math and science, and

|>most things pertaining to logic.

aye, my parents did their level best to get my sister interested in the
technical disciplines, but she was always more interested in arts and
is now studying photography. I dunno whether it's because she was naturally
inclined towards these things or was simply doing the opposite of what our
parents wanted :0) My younger brother is a classical pianist and NT guru,
so I guess it all went wrong there too....

--
/** Java G <hamm...@meng.ucl.ac.uk>
* Virtual Reality ROV Docking Planner
* http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~zcemm23
* "it's not about money... it's about pasta..." */


Yamaha / XYZZ

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Nov 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/8/96
to

Joshua Boyd wrote:
>
> My sister was encouraged to take things apart and to explore etc. She
> abhores computers (strange, considering how many my family own, 8, with a
> new one coming early next year) and strongly dislikes math and science, and
> most things pertaining to logic.

My best friend (female) grew up almost exclusively around other females,
but she surely isn't interested in typical "feminine" things.

She's now a programmer and is also extremely interested in math,
physics, electrical engineering, etc... However, she's also very
artistic and creative; easily combining logic and creativity.

My own opinion is that a person's interests and personality are almost
exclusively influenced by environment (instead of genetics); but I don't
wish to argue about it (at least, not in this newsgroup).


-- Yamaha / XYZZ
mailto:scr...@CS.ColoState.edu
mailto:scr...@VIS.ColoState.edu
http://www.vis.colostate.edu/~scriven/

Steve McAndrewSmith

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Nov 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/8/96
to

Java G wrote:

> aye, my parents did their level best to get my sister interested in the
> technical disciplines, but she was always more interested in arts

That sort of implies that coding isn't an art :-) I'm both a hacker, drummer, and bass
player, and they're not all that different, from my point of view.

******************************************************************************
Steve McAndrewSmith EMAIL: ste...@turbonet.com
Drummer - Hacker - Minor Deity HTTP: //www.eecs.wsu.edu/~smcandre
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True multitasking is being able to type and pet the cat on your lap, at
the same time.
-- S. M.
******************************************************************************

Steve McAndrewSmith

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Nov 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/8/96
to

Tonya Pope (ga...@premier.net) wrote:
: And to the credit of all you guys out there--I have not met a male
: chauvinist yet amongst any of my colleagues in the programming world!
: Obviously, your heads and shoulders above many other industries I've had
: the displeasure to work in.

: Tonya Pope

I've noticed there seems to be a disproportionate amount of racists, sexists or
homophobic hackers. I guess it just because it's so hard to find others with the same
intelligence that, if you do, who *care's* about that stuff? CAN THEY CODE??!!

I'm more biased towards what platfrom someone codes on (Those Mac and Newton hackers are
just an inferior species! Heil Hitler! :-) )

Gil Colgate

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Nov 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/8/96
to

David Roberts wrote:
>
> matt...@netcom.com (Matt Pritchard) wrote:
>
> >If I may thow in another factor:
>
> >I believe that female programmers (and engineers in general) are
> >underrepresented in smaller companies, in part because the TI's, Intel's
> >and EDS's of the world _VERY_ actively recruit them.. not because they
> >are inherently better or cheaper, but to increase their compliance
> >with laws that mandate "diversity" & "equal opportunity" reduce their
> >exposure to legal action over said issues.

I once knew a woman who said that she preferred to work at big
companies, since
the environments were "safer". Especially with regard to annoying bosses
and
harrassing co-workers.

David Sharp

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Nov 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/8/96
to

weikel wrote:
>
> Javier Arevalo (ja...@jet.es) wrote:
> : h...@cafu.fl.net.au (Nicholas Vinen) wrote:
>
> : >using computers, so it's not just that it's a male dominated field. There
> : >is something stopping them from being active in the demoscene...
>
> : I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
> : Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
> : are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
> : or female friends usually do only practical things.

>
> I can't think of anything more practical than learning to program.
> I agree that fewer women will program for "fun" without hoping to
> make a career of it. I've known men who work at $5/hr jobs and
> write assembly code as a hobby. Actually...I was in that boat
> myself... In any event, I think that women enjoy programming, but
> think of it as serious stuff.

Yeah, well, I know of an all female UK Cracking / Warez group (GANJA)


Brandon Van Every

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Nov 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/9/96
to

Mike McCarty <jmcc...@sun1307.spd.dsccc.com> wrote in article
<55u01s$v...@sun001.spd.dsccc.com>...

>
> I'll go beyond this. There have been experiments performed which pretty
> conclusively show that boys are more active, and more attracted to
>
> playing alone or competitively
> disasembling/designing machinery
>
> whereas girls are more attracted to
>
> playing together or cooperatively
> playing with other children
>
> This has been done in more than one culture, and in more than one place.
> One woman has written a book "Genderlects" which pretty conclusively
> shows that women and men have different outlooks on life, not culturally
> induced, reflected in the strategies they use to parse sentences and
> meanings they give to words.

I'll buy that "studies were done," and that they may even be representative
of particular cultures (USA, for instance.) But as a guy who came a hair
away from being a Sociocultural Anthropologist, I will not buy your
cross-cultural conclusions. Very little if anything has ever been "proven"
in a cross-cultural context. Cross-posted to sci.anthropology to see what
folks think....



> It seems to be something connected to the way our brains are wired
> differently.

That's what the "nature" school would have you believe.


Cheers,
--
Brandon J. Van Every | Free3d: old code never dies! :-)
| Starter code for GNU Copyleft projects.
DEC Graphics & Multimedia |
Windows NT Alpha OpenGL | vane...@blarg.net www.blarg.net/~vanevery


Fabio Bizzetti

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Nov 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/9/96
to

I never smoke either, and practically dont drink either (besides when I am
drunk =;^D ).. my comment was general, and true also towards who blames
you for your hobby (computer freak).

Just go ahead, no need to care about what others (ignorants on the matter)
say, get advice only from who really knows the matter he/she is talking about.

So I'll shut up now. ;^)

A smile/laugh is more healty than a worry.. and in my very personal opinion
if you dont smoke you are much smarter than who smokes, if you dont drink too
much then you're much smarter of who can't live without drinkink to go on, if
you are a skilled programmer you've more possibilities in life than who looks
for the "Any" key on the keyboard and doesn't find it, when the message "press
any key" appears on the screen.. :)

Believe in yourself.

cynthia gage

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
to

I'm just wondering how any of these studies were done in order to avoid
culturally induced gender characteristics and differences. The
experiments studied the strategies used by "boys" and "girls" to "parse
sentenses and meanings they give to words"?...I was alwasys under the
impression that language and grammer and speech WERE culturally induced?
:)
Cynthia

In article <01bbcde6$bd1d3240$1690...@hammurabi.blarg.net>, "Brandon Van

Mr.P

unread,
Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
to

On 7 Nov 1996 23:36:12 GMT, Tenie Remmel <tj...@mail.nwlink.com>

wrote:
>matt...@netcom.com (Matt Pritchard) wrote:
>>If I may thow in another factor:
>>I believe that female programmers (and engineers in general) are
>>underrepresented in smaller companies, in part because the TI's, Intel's
>>and EDS's of the world _VERY_ actively recruit them.. not because they
>>are inherently better or cheaper, but to increase their compliance
>>with laws that mandate "diversity" & "equal opportunity" reduce their
>>exposure to legal action over said issues.
>I believe that female programmers _are_ better programmers than males.
>The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) are
>all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other things
>also, except physical strength.

Even then, I do recall hearing in some old physical education class
about men being more adept towards "gross muscle movement" [i.e.
lifting a few hundred pounds] while women were more adept towards
"fine muscle movement" [i.e. piano playing].

Oh well. Inferior as we are, we're still essential to the survival of
the species, so we aren't going anytime soon. :)

-----------
Mr.P, m...@spartan.pei.edu
Coder, master procrastinator, and loudmouth.
"In German, a young lady has no sex, while a turnip has."
- Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens), "That Awful German Language"

Java G

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

In article <32831FFD...@turbonet.com>, Steve McAndrewSmith


<ste...@turbonet.com> writes:
|>Java G wrote:
|>
|>> aye, my parents did their level best to get my sister interested in the
|>> technical disciplines, but she was always more interested in arts
|>
|>That sort of implies that coding isn't an art :-) I'm both a hacker,
|>drummer, and bass
|>player, and they're not all that different, from my point of view.

yeah, but you know what I meant :0) personally, I find many similarities
between jiu-jitsu and coding.

Fabio Bizzetti

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Java G (hamm...@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk) wrote:
>In article <32831FFD...@turbonet.com>, Steve McAndrewSmith
><ste...@turbonet.com> writes:
>|>Java G wrote:
>|>
>|>> aye, my parents did their level best to get my sister interested in the
>|>> technical disciplines, but she was always more interested in arts
>|>
>|>That sort of implies that coding isn't an art :-) I'm both a hacker,
>|>drummer, and bass
>|>player, and they're not all that different, from my point of view.

>yeah, but you know what I meant :0) personally, I find many similarities
>between jiu-jitsu and coding.

Expecially when kicking out of the hard disk a virus. :D

>--
>/** Java G <hamm...@meng.ucl.ac.uk>
> * Virtual Reality ROV Docking Planner
> * http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~zcemm23
> * "it's not about money... it's about pasta..." */

Amit Moskovich

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Wow, a woman that codes demos.. :)
And even from israel, calling the internet through the same ISP I
use.. :))
Wow again.

Say, will you be attending Movement96 in about a month?
Amit Moskovich aka Drool / Cyborg, coder and ansi maker.
ami...@netvision.net.il.


s270...@nickel.laurentian.ca

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

Yeah, and I know guys who shave their legs and wear dresses.

Infact, I think they greatly outnumber your cracking/warez group, and
I wouldn't be surprised if they outnumbered female coders altogther.

Just because a group exists, it doesn't mean its any reflection of
the population. The very fact that they would have to be named in
an arguement IS an indication of social trends.

I'll side with the notion that the low numbers of female coders is more
an effect induced by social pressures, not capability or "natural" tendencies

This, and I think female coders that are around keep a lower profile,
I hate to say it, but where ever female coders go they will not be taken
as seriously as their male counterparts, especially in male social circles.
The lifeless geek who spends all his time working at home and at the
workplace is a stererotype that for the mostpart accurately depicts
(or exaggerates) the strongest people in the computer industry.

(flame war!... please flame me back by email!)

This is precisely the reason I am not pursuing a carreer in computers...
it is a lifestyle, to be truely successful, you have to be socialized
into the group, I don't like the group.

I think these tendencies (male dominance in computers) will diminish greatly
over the years, I already notice it on the internet (as opposed to the BBS
community 5 or 10 years ago)

I think it will accelerate as the number of female-only groups increase.

If you disagree, take it up with my 90% male comp-sci classes,
or if you feel women don't get to university, discuss it with the
90% female nursing classes or 99% female women's studies classes.

Please, let's not get into an uproar, these are my opinions. I realise
there are many exceptions, and I'm very open minded about the issue...
only my personal experices dictate that this is where the industry stands,
I'm sure it varies greatly from culture to culture.

What does this have to do with dos programming?
it's the philosophical side of dos.

Please, if you're flamimng my opinions, save the group
and reply by email.

<mg...@isys.ca>

John

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to


On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Java G wrote:

>
> In article <32831FFD...@turbonet.com>, Steve McAndrewSmith
> <ste...@turbonet.com> writes:
> |>Java G wrote:
> |>
> |>> aye, my parents did their level best to get my sister interested in the
> |>> technical disciplines, but she was always more interested in arts
> |>
> |>That sort of implies that coding isn't an art :-) I'm both a hacker,
> |>drummer, and bass
> |>player, and they're not all that different, from my point of view.
>
> yeah, but you know what I meant :0) personally, I find many similarities
> between jiu-jitsu and coding.

Know what you mean. Every so often I feel like throwing my computer
around too....

( And a dialog box popped up saying SANE error!
I say "WHAT??"
And it still says 'SANE Error!'

Well, I SNAP!

I headfake to the left and deliver a double fisted strike to the upper
monitor, Drop kick to the power unit and karate chop to the CPU. Then I
do an Ikeo, Nikeo, and Koti-Mati-Gashi. I pick it up, spin it around for
a bit, and preform a flawless Koshi nagi on it, finishing off with a
backfisted strike to the mic!

Ever since I've been the Champ!)


John

(and if you don't get it, I don't care!)


P.S. On the topic of female coders, I'm a frosh leader dude at U of W
Math, and I've noticed we've been getting a lot more female frosh than in
past years. (but guys still outnumber girls by about two to one)


Sam Butler

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

WHO CARES if the coders are male or female? Just as long as they get the
job done. I admit that most programmers are male, but if a female wants to
program too, no big deal!!!!

Sorry for leaving over 80% of this as the original message, but I felt to
reproduce it to illustrate my point.

Sam Butler (a male, in case you're wondering)
(and not even out of High School; only 16 yrs old. But should ANY
of the above make a difference if I can program as good
as a 33-yr-old male? Not that I can, but you get my point!)
sbu...@magiclink.com
http://www.magiclink.com/Twin/

PS: Check out

s270...@nickel.laurentian.ca wrote in article
<1996Nov1...@nickel.laurentian.ca>...

Stephen Kawamoto

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

jo...@curved-logic.com (John Harries) writes:

>On Fri, 08 Nov 1996 15:01:12 -0800, David Sharp
><David...@wmc.ac.uk> wrote:


>>Yeah, well, I know of an all female UK Cracking / Warez group (GANJA)
>>

>Women can be parasites too. Way to go.

yes but we're all fleas. just some of us ask how high when we're told
to jump, eh, Johnny?

>Johnny.

>jo...@curved-logic.com Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum
--
Address E-mail to: sa...@vanbc.wimsey.com | sa...@rainbow.descon.com
<a href="http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~sage/">Sage_B's Web Site</a>
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox Saya rindu awak, sayangku xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
Stephen H. Kawamoto <finger sa...@vanbc.wimsey.com for PGP Public Key>

Stephen Kawamoto

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

I know of 2 woman programmers who've been shafted by the male computer
industry:


Joan L Grove Brewer (see http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~sage/snn/microsoft.html)

and

Susan Headley aka Suzie Thunder , formerly of the Roscoe Gang (c 1985) --
ok Suzie is actually a subversive psychological engineer. I have no
verification that she is a competent programmer, especially not someone
who spent most of her time online playing Tradewars 2000.

Michal Czupryn

unread,
Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

>
> I tend to think of myself as somewhat of a programmer. And my desire
> to learn about computers came at an early age. Granted I was a bit of
> an abnormality and for people in my age bracket I still am. But with

I would think most people in this news group were as well :)

> the big push towards higher education I think that you will see more
> women in the field. How can you get away from learning how to use a
> computer these days. You may have to wait a few years but it will
> happen.

I disagree. There's a huge difference between "using" a computer and
"programming" a computer. My mother "uses" a computer, although I'm not
sure I would call it that. Many women use computes, some maybe even
quite proficiently, but there is only a tiny fraction that can (maybe I
should say do) program a computer. The same applies to males. Even
though many have bought computers with this "Internet" craze, how many
do you think will actually program them? Many will never need to with
software being pumped out 24/7 to fill the market gap with crap.

-Mike.

--
-------------------------------------------
/ Michal Czupryn / Rensselaer Polytechnic \
[-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-]
| mailto:czu...@rpi.edu |
| WWW: http://www.rpi.edu/~czuprm |
| PGP: Key available by request or at |
\ http://www.rpi.edu/~czuprm/pgp.htm /
-------------------------------------------

Nicholas Vinen

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Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

Stephen Kawamoto (sa...@wimsey.com) wrote:
: jo...@curved-logic.com (John Harries) writes:

: >On Fri, 08 Nov 1996 15:01:12 -0800, David Sharp
: ><David...@wmc.ac.uk> wrote:


: >>Yeah, well, I know of an all female UK Cracking / Warez group (GANJA)
: >>

: >Women can be parasites too. Way to go.

: yes but we're all fleas. just some of us ask how high when we're told
: to jump, eh, Johnny?

Speak for yourself. Some people are in this to give, not receive.


Joyce Osagie

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Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

che...@netcom.com (Chris Hecker) wrote:

>ja...@jet.es (Javier Arevalo) writes:
>>I see many more guys that girls having heavily-involving hobbies.
>>Happens all the time, with sports, computers or whatever. There
>>are many things I strive to do just for the joy of it; my sisters
>>or female friends usually do only practical things.

>I think this is true, but it's a learned thing, not an inherent one.

>When I was a kid I took everything apart (and usually didn't put it

>back together quite right, but that's another story), and I was

>actually encouraged to do this by my parents and society. This

>intellectual curiosity is the main reason I play around with computers

>and math and whatnot. Most women are not raised that way, and so they

>don't do it when they're older. I think [hope] this is changing, and

>things will even out.

>Chris

I tend to think of myself as somewhat of a programmer. And my desire
to learn about computers came at an early age. Granted I was a bit of
an abnormality and for people in my age bracket I still am. But with

the big push towards higher education I think that you will see more
women in the field. How can you get away from learning how to use a
computer these days. You may have to wait a few years but it will
happen.

Joyce


David Ma

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Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

Does it really matter what sex the coder is? I don't care who you are
or where you came from talent it talent, period.

David Ma

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Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
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Does it really matter what sex the coder is? I don't care who you are
or where you came from talent it talent, period.

"We are Pentium of Borg. Motorola is futile. Cyrix is Irrelevant.
You will be estimated."

Joel Hardy

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Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
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>WHO CARES if the coders are male or female? Just as long as they get >the
>job done. I admit that most programmers are male, but if a female wants >to
>program too, no big deal!!!!

Exactly my point of view. Generalizations either way are useless.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
|Joel Hardy (yes, my return address is fake so I won't get spammed |
| as hard), my real address is de...@fiestanet.com |
| |
|Visit my ugly homepage (with the first version of the sound |
|programming FAQ at http://www.fiestanet.com/~www/deeng/start.htm) |
| |
|I still need a better sig... |
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ahti Eric Rovainen

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
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s270...@nickel.laurentian.ca wrote:

[snip]
[some others wrote]
: >> I agree that fewer women will program for "fun" without hoping to


: >> make a career of it. I've known men who work at $5/hr jobs and
: >> write assembly code as a hobby. Actually...I was in that boat
: >> myself... In any event, I think that women enjoy programming, but
: >> think of it as serious stuff.

: >

: > Yeah, well, I know of an all female UK Cracking / Warez group (GANJA)

Not surprising, given that warez is cowardly and passive-aggressive and
women are more likely to be passive-aggressive. For example, the vast
majority of men will leave a note if they hit your parked car, and
they'll stop if they hit a pedestrian. OTOH, most women leave the
scene of hitting a parked car without leaving a note, and are more likely
to commit hit-and-run, then go into counseling and rationalize the crime
and show no remorse whatsoever for it. (Aside: that's one reason we
men pay higher auto insurance even though we tend to drive better). Thus
no surprise that many women trade warez (dunno if many disable copy
protection though). AOL has the highest female percentage and the highest
rate of problem users (hackers, warez traders, sex perverts, etc) - that
is probably not just a coincidence!

: I'll side with the notion that the low numbers of female coders is more


: an effect induced by social pressures, not capability or "natural" tendencies
:
: This, and I think female coders that are around keep a lower profile,
: I hate to say it, but where ever female coders go they will not be taken
: as seriously as their male counterparts, especially in male social circles.
: The lifeless geek who spends all his time working at home and at the
: workplace is a stererotype that for the mostpart accurately depicts
: (or exaggerates) the strongest people in the computer industry.
:
: (flame war!... please flame me back by email!)

I'm posting this because this kind of post shows up all the time in
male-oriented newsgroups (sports, programming, etc) - some troll or
PC liberal whines about females being under-represented. If this
traumatizes some PC non-programmers into not posting as much, the net
effect is positive. (PC = Politically Correct, not Personal Computer).

: This is precisely the reason I am not pursuing a carreer in computers...


: it is a lifestyle, to be truely successful, you have to be socialized
: into the group, I don't like the group.

Computer people are often antisocial; it's a contradiction to be
"socialized" into a group of computer people!

: I think these tendencies (male dominance in computers) will diminish greatly


: over the years, I already notice it on the internet (as opposed to the BBS
: community 5 or 10 years ago)

That's because the barriers to entry (high intelligence, logic, hard
working, etc) are diminishing. In the days of 2nd and 3rd generation
language development, you had to be smart, logical, and clever. Now
with the allegedly "intuitive" tools available, you don't necessarily
need a computer-like analytic mind, increasing the pool of potential
employees of both genders, especially gals. Female engineers already
get paid more for doing less work (well, maybe they're sleeping with
suits to get the extra $), women are exempt from the draft and combat,
and they receive the vast majority of SS and Medicare even though men
pay the most FICA and Medicare tax. Furthermore, office politics are
sexist in that men are usually fired for false charges of "sexual
harrassment" while women keep their jobs after actual harrasment of men.

As to computer users, kids are equally interested until teenage years
set in, then it's mostly male with a few tomboys and cyber-sluts thrown
in. At adult age, working women often work reluctantly, wanting some
man to sweep her off her feet and craving to get pregnant. Men are
usually goal-oriented and focused on our careers, so tough careers such
as computer jobs are more suited to us. A lot of unproductive middle
management positions are given to women, so they're probably given
preferential treatment despite their smaller percentage in the industry.

: I think it will accelerate as the number of female-only groups increase.


:
: If you disagree, take it up with my 90% male comp-sci classes,

CS is very hard and only a small fraction of either gender can
succeed. Maybe 9% of males and 1% of females could make it (numbers
are just a guess). The few female CS types are usually decent and
together, and are often from classy Eastern cultures (Muslim, Buddhist,
etc) where women don't do sleazy Western stuff. Female programmers are
usually OK to work with because they're frigid and don't try to flirt
the way airhead corporate women do (the male computer consultants know
what I'm talking about).

Often when some PC whiner/troll invades a masculine newsgroup demanding
the industry hire more women, an amusing appropriate answer is this:
"Most if not all women are unsuitable for that kind of position. The
only position I want to see women in is on their backs!"


weikel

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
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Ahti Eric Rovainen (ah...@mail1.i1.net) wrote:
: s270...@nickel.laurentian.ca wrote:

: Not surprising, given that warez is cowardly and passive-aggressive and


: women are more likely to be passive-aggressive. For example, the vast
: majority of men will leave a note if they hit your parked car, and
: they'll stop if they hit a pedestrian. OTOH, most women leave the
: scene of hitting a parked car without leaving a note, and are more likely
: to commit hit-and-run, then go into counseling and rationalize the crime
: and show no remorse whatsoever for it. (Aside: that's one reason we
: men pay higher auto insurance even though we tend to drive better). Thus

<lots of flame bait snipped>

Excuse me, but what planet are you from?
And what do you do for a living because you CAN'T be a real
programmer.

Tonya Pope

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
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This snivelling whining sexist drivel has obviously been made by someone
"mentally challenged". And, no offense to most of you out there, but
computer science is NOT a hard degree to earn. Unfortunately, it is
quite easy for anyone, educated enough to go to college, to obtain a
degree in CS. For you to say that it is hard, further proves your
'mentally challenged' status.

Now before the rest of you jump on me, it takes a lot of intelligence to
be a GOOD programmer. Apparently, the 'mentally challenged' individual
has been introduced to the real world where there are plenty of
intelligent programmers that he just can't compete with. And to make
matters worse, some are women.

Heaven forbid!

Wake up and deal with your inefficiencies.

Scott Dudley

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
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> playing together or cooperatively
> playing with other children

Isn't that the same thing?

Chris Gerber

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
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On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, John Harries wrote:

> >>Women can be parasites too. Way to go.
> >
> >yes but we're all fleas. just some of us ask how high when we're told
> >to jump, eh, Johnny?
>

> What are you talking about? I don't understand your comment in
> relation to mine.

True enough, [s]he makes no sense.

> As far as I'm concerned WareZ DudeZ do nothing positive for the games
> industry (and lets not have that 'evaluation' crap, you KNOW its just
> an excuse). Its theft.

And what makes you think that theft is "wrong"?
-chris

Chris Gerber

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
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On 14 Nov 1996, Ahti Eric Rovainen wrote:

> : > Yeah, well, I know of an all female UK Cracking / Warez group (GANJA)
>
> Not surprising, given that warez is cowardly and passive-aggressive and
> women are more likely to be passive-aggressive. For example, the vast
> majority of men will leave a note if they hit your parked car, and
> they'll stop if they hit a pedestrian. OTOH, most women leave the
> scene of hitting a parked car without leaving a note, and are more likely
> to commit hit-and-run, then go into counseling and rationalize the crime
> and show no remorse whatsoever for it. (Aside: that's one reason we
> men pay higher auto insurance even though we tend to drive better). Thus

Oh my god are you ever a pathetic, narcissitic, persecution-riddled,
paranoid, un-intelligent redneck. It makes me very sick indeed that you
are able to post your biased, bullshit "opinions" to millions of people
all around the world. On the other hand, I'm impressed by your
ingenuity: how does someone with so little cranial capacity figure out
how to plug in a computer, let alone turn on the power and run internet
software? For starters, it would be nice if you could let us know the
source of your "information".

> no surprise that many women trade warez (dunno if many disable copy
> protection though). AOL has the highest female percentage and the highest
> rate of problem users (hackers, warez traders, sex perverts, etc) - that
> is probably not just a coincidence!

You know what, you seem to be the biggest "problem user" that I've ever
heard of.

> Computer people are often antisocial; it's a contradiction to be
> "socialized" into a group of computer people!

You are the most perfect example of your own hypothesis that I have ever
talked to/heard of. Perhaps *your* perspective or world-view is the one
that is f*cked up, rather than the rest of us conforming to your own
narcissistic vision.

> That's because the barriers to entry (high intelligence, logic, hard
> working, etc) are diminishing. In the days of 2nd and 3rd generation
> language development, you had to be smart, logical, and clever. Now
> with the allegedly "intuitive" tools available, you don't necessarily
> need a computer-like analytic mind, increasing the pool of potential
> employees of both genders, especially gals.

Ohhhhhh, especially "gals" are the stupid ones in your bloated opinion?
Why don't you state things the way they are. This should have read as:
"In my own personal, sexist, racist, holier-than-thou,
oh-so-intelligent-and-persecuted-for-it opinion, think that women are as
dumb as bricks (well, dumber than me, bricks might be smarter than me,
though)"
Where *do* you get off saying that men are smarter then women, period?

> Female engineers already
> get paid more for doing less work (well, maybe they're sleeping with
> suits to get the extra $), women are exempt from the draft and combat,
> and they receive the vast majority of SS and Medicare even though men
> pay the most FICA and Medicare tax. Furthermore, office politics are
> sexist in that men are usually fired for false charges of "sexual
> harrassment" while women keep their jobs after actual harrasment of men.

You seem to be the one who's all wrapped up the PC notion that men are
the ones being persecuted big time. And it may be in your own fantasy
that some day you won't be an insignificant smudge, you'll be an
insignificant smudge in management, and that you'll have sex for the
very first time with someone who wants a raise. Yes, you are dreaming
of some kind of sexual power, boy-o. Try posting to alt.sex.bondage,
instead of here.. especially with your ego that ate manhattan.

> As to computer users, kids are equally interested until teenage years
> set in, then it's mostly male with a few tomboys and cyber-sluts thrown
> in. At adult age, working women often work reluctantly, wanting some

Holy f*ck are you ever rude! You just finished letting us all know that
you crave free sex from someone you have power over, and now you're
calling people sluts! I think you have never left your basement bedroom
where you masturbate all day and think of girls. I'm sorry, but
opinions like yours could not have been formed with any contact from the
outside world.

> man to sweep her off her feet and craving to get pregnant. Men are
> usually goal-oriented and focused on our careers, so tough careers such
> as computer jobs are more suited to us. A lot of unproductive middle
> management positions are given to women, so they're probably given
> preferential treatment despite their smaller percentage in the industry.

You *really* never have talked to a woman before, have you? What do you
base your bullshit about pregnancy on?

> CS is very hard and only a small fraction of either gender can
> succeed. Maybe 9% of males and 1% of females could make it (numbers
> are just a guess). The few female CS types are usually decent and
> together, and are often from classy Eastern cultures (Muslim, Buddhist,
> etc) where women don't do sleazy Western stuff. Female programmers are
> usually OK to work with because they're frigid and don't try to flirt
> the way airhead corporate women do (the male computer consultants know
> what I'm talking about).

I had guessed that you were racist as well, thank you for confirming
it. Why didn't you put the "just a guess" after every single "fact"
that you put in your message? It would have clarified things a lot.
Better yet, why not "just in my little world"?

> Often when some PC whiner/troll invades a masculine newsgroup demanding
> the industry hire more women, an amusing appropriate answer is this:
> "Most if not all women are unsuitable for that kind of position. The
> only position I want to see women in is on their backs!"

Oh, they are unsuitable just because they are currently in the
minority? I really doubt that whoever started the thread was some
random hand-wringer. And to you programming is masculine. Yes, go you
manly, muscular typer you! Rowr! Tell you what, the next time (I'm
betting the first time) you see a woman on her back, you can post and
tell us if you got her there by force, or because she loved your great
ideas and intelligence. I'll bet you'll never know, because she'll run
the second you open your bigotted mouth. Have a terrible day, bro.
Keep fightin' the fight for the poor, abused, trampled rich or
upper-middle-classed WASP who calls most of the shots in our society.
I know, I know, you're soooo persecuted.
-chris

Java G

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Nov 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/15/96
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|>>I believe that female programmers _are_ better programmers than males.
|>>The four best programmers I know (I guess that would include me :) are
|>>all women. Not surprising since women are better in most other things
|>>also, except physical strength.

like what, pray tell?

why does every discussion like this get hijacked by hysterical feminists?

Java G

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Nov 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/15/96
to

In article <32872c83...@snews2.zippo.com>, jo...@curved-logic.com (John
Harries) writes:
|>On Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:13:11 GMT, hamm...@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk


|>(Java G) wrote:
|>
|>>
|>>yeah, but you know what I meant :0) personally, I find many similarities
|>>between jiu-jitsu and coding.
|>

|>You hit the computer a lot? Or does your code keep tripping up other
|>programs? :-)

When fighting, you study your opponent, try various moves, get a feel for
how they behave and react - an analog of object-oriented analysis & design

once this is complete, you move in for the attack, stripping away the opponents
defences and disabling them - 40 hour coding sessions

Then finally victory, which actually feels the same whether in battle or
development. Then you bow/ship your code.

I M

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Nov 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/15/96