Did Murdoch issue the order to reverse the engines or not?!
us...@somewhere.com
where Titanic hits the iceberg. If my information is correct...I've heard it said that First Officer
Murdoch ordered the ships engines to go into reverse. But in the movie...James Cameron
shows us it was the commanding officer below deck that issued this order. I'm asking this
question because it is a critical point. If it was the commanding officer in the engine room that
issued the order...it makes the actions of First Officer Murdoch on the watch totally blameless.
I didn't see or hear the James Cameron verion of events show First Officer Murdoch issue the
order to reverse the engines. In this case....what happened to Titanic wasn't his fault. That
makes his suicide more tragic. However...if it is true that the real Murdoch ordered the engines
to go into reverse...then why didn't James Cameron mention this?
Please reply to the newsgroup as the email address is faked to avoid spam.
Michael D. Bremseth
us...@somewhere.com wrote:
> But in the movie...James Cameron
> shows us it was the commanding officer below deck that issued this order.
Methinks you have not seen correctly. The officer in the engine room would issue an order to his men to
reverse and engine(s) - but not without authorization (orders) from above. Normally this would be given
by the repeating telegraph. I think the movie showed the telegraph, just not the order being given on the
bridge. I may be wrong, however.
> I'm asking this question because it is a critical point. If it was the commanding officer in the
> engine room that issued the order...it makes the actions of First Officer Murdoch on the watch totally
> blameless.
> In this case....what happened to Titanic wasn't his fault.
Even if I am wrong above, you are missing 'the' most important point. As watch officer, First Officer
Murdoch was totally responsible for everything that happened or didn't happen on that ship. This is one
of those legal points you must deal with when you are in command. So, even if he didn't order engines
reversed (and that was seen as bad), he was in charge, so he shouldered the responsibility.
--
Conducting a Survey? Check "Bremseth on Survey Research"
http://home.earthlink.net/~bremseth
KindrdStar
Yes Murdoch sent the order, but in the movie Cameron wanted to show the engine
rooms and the coal rooms.. it made the action a bit more interesting then
Murdoch screaming reverse!
Kindred
Tom Pappas
Full Astern. Chief Engineer Joseph Bell relayed the order to the men working
the engine controls and confirmed to order to the bridge.
In fact, this is a little bit Hollywood. The engine order was actually
received by some oilers who happened to be near the telegraph. They then
informed Bell, and he issued the orders to man the controls.
But in the event, Murdoch's order didn't make any difference, because there
wasn't enough time to carry it out. I go into this on my website:
--
Half-baked Titanic theories galore at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~tomswift1
"But this script can't sink!"
"She is made of irony, sir. I assure you, she can."
Tom Pappas
>On 7 Sep 1998 18:48:10 -0500, us...@somewhere.com wrote:
>
>>I'm not clear on one critical point about the actions taken by the
officers during the crucial scene
>>where Titanic hits the iceberg. If my information is correct...I've heard
it said that First Officer
movie...James Cameron
>>shows us it was the commanding officer below deck that issued this order.
>>question because it is a critical point. If it was the commanding officer
in the engine room that
>>issued the order...it makes the actions of First Officer Murdoch on the
watch totally blameless.
Murdoch issue the
wasn't his fault. That
>>makes his suicide more tragic. However...if it is true that the real
Murdoch ordered the engines
>>to go into reverse...then why didn't James Cameron mention this?
>>
>(which, admittedly while authoritative did have its own agenda vis a
>vis protecting the White Star Line) - Officer Murdoch did in fact
>immediately order 'Full Astern' immediately upon spotting the berg. It
>is also mathematically accepted that had he not done so, the ship
>probably would have turned faster and missed the berg.
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG. THE ENGINE COMMANDS WEREN'T EVEN EXECUTED UNTIL
AFTER THE COLLISION. MURDOCH'S ORDERS MADE NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER.
This in large
>part has been chalked up to the simple inexperience of ALL officers
>including the Captain, in handleing ships THAT large. We saw problems
>with this in the Titanics near collision with the 'New York' in
>Southampton harbor, also a result of the sheer size of the ship.
E.J. SMITH HAD BEEN MASTER OF OLYMPIC SINCE HER LAUNCHING.
>
>NOW - Regarding what you mention above, take another look. It is
>Murdoch who rushes over to the round gold thing (name eludes me), and
>pulls the lever.
ANYONE WITH THE MOST PRIMITIVE KNOWLEDGE OF SHIPS KNOWS THAT IT WAS THE
ENGINE TELEGRAPH.
Cut to engine room, the engineer looks at an
>IDENTICAL round gold thing, freaks out, and yells "Full Astern".
>That thing is what the bridge used to communicate with the engine
>room. Cameron got it right, it was Murdoch's order. (Certainly an
>understandable order, in defense of the late Mr. Murdoch, who paid for
>it with his life).
NOW GO DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND GO TO BED. DON'T FORGET TO BRUSH YOUR TEETH.
> 'Nuff 4 now, druu
druu
>I'm not clear on one critical point about the actions taken by the officers during the crucial scene
>where Titanic hits the iceberg. If my information is correct...I've heard it said that First Officer
>Murdoch ordered the ships engines to go into reverse. But in the movie...James Cameron
>shows us it was the commanding officer below deck that issued this order. I'm asking this
>question because it is a critical point. If it was the commanding officer in the engine room that
>issued the order...it makes the actions of First Officer Murdoch on the watch totally blameless.
>I didn't see or hear the James Cameron verion of events show First Officer Murdoch issue the
>order to reverse the engines. In this case....what happened to Titanic wasn't his fault. That
>makes his suicide more tragic. However...if it is true that the real Murdoch ordered the engines
>to go into reverse...then why didn't James Cameron mention this?
>
According to the actual court of Inquiry by the British Government,
(which, admittedly while authoritative did have its own agenda vis a
vis protecting the White Star Line) - Officer Murdoch did in fact
immediately order 'Full Astern' immediately upon spotting the berg. It
is also mathematically accepted that had he not done so, the ship
probably would have turned faster and missed the berg. This in large
part has been chalked up to the simple inexperience of ALL officers
including the Captain, in handleing ships THAT large. We saw problems
with this in the Titanics near collision with the 'New York' in
Southampton harbor, also a result of the sheer size of the ship.
NOW - Regarding what you mention above, take another look. It is
Murdoch who rushes over to the round gold thing (name eludes me), and
pulls the lever. Cut to engine room, the engineer looks at an
IDENTICAL round gold thing, freaks out, and yells "Full Astern".
That thing is what the bridge used to communicate with the engine
room. Cameron got it right, it was Murdoch's order. (Certainly an
understandable order, in defense of the late Mr. Murdoch, who paid for
it with his life).
'Nuff 4 now, druu
Jo Gill
sense.
>
>NOW - Regarding what you mention above, take another look. It is
>Murdoch who rushes over to the round gold thing (name eludes me), and
>pulls the lever. Cut to engine room, the engineer looks at an
>IDENTICAL round gold thing, freaks out, and yells "Full Astern".
>That thing is what the bridge used to communicate with the engine
>room. Cameron got it right, it was Murdoch's order. (Certainly an
>understandable order, in defense of the late Mr. Murdoch, who paid for
>it with his life).
officer have done differently? We don't know. But from mistakes we
learn.
>
> 'Nuff 4 now, druu
--
Jo Gill
Jo Gill
<toms...@earthlink.net> writes
>AFTER THE COLLISION. MURDOCH'S ORDERS MADE NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER.
>
>>part has been chalked up to the simple inexperience of ALL officers
>>including the Captain, in handleing ships THAT large. We saw problems
>>with this in the Titanics near collision with the 'New York' in
>>Southampton harbor, also a result of the sheer size of the ship.
>
>>
>>Murdoch who rushes over to the round gold thing (name eludes me), and
>>pulls the lever.
>
>ENGINE TELEGRAPH.
>
>>IDENTICAL round gold thing, freaks out, and yells "Full Astern".
>>That thing is what the bridge used to communicate with the engine
>>room. Cameron got it right, it was Murdoch's order. (Certainly an
>>understandable order, in defense of the late Mr. Murdoch, who paid for
>>it with his life).
>
>
THE ONE BEING IMMATURE!
Tom Pappas
ONE BEING IMMATURE!
Your opinions are welcomed if you can substantiate them with a modicum of
knowledge. Saying things such as "um, well, he turned the thingy" do not
exactly exude competence in things nautical.
Michael D. Bremseth
> >DON'T BE SUCH AN ASSHOLE, AND GO TO BED AND BRUSH YOUR TEETH COZ YOU'RE THE
> ONE BEING IMMATURE!
with:
> Your opinions are welcomed if you can substantiate them with a modicum of
> knowledge. Saying things such as "um, well, he turned the thingy" do not
> exactly exude competence in things nautical.
Three points:
1. I must have missed the event when *you* were appointed god of this newsgroup
with the power to decide when, where, or how someone's "opinions are welcomed."
Such arrogance is unbecoming.
2. If you go back to your original response to the person (in this thread) you
will find that *your* boorish responses were not substantiated: rather, they
were just your pontifical remarks, viz.
"THIS IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG. THE ENGINE COMMANDS WEREN'T EVEN
EXECUTED UNTIL AFTER THE COLLISION. MURDOCH'S ORDERS MADE NO DIFFERENCE
WHATSOEVER."
3. You surely owe that poster an apology for the absolutely unnecessary tone of
your remarks. First was:
"ANYONE WITH THE MOST PRIMITIVE KNOWLEDGE OF SHIPS KNOWS THAT IT
WAS THE ENGINE TELEGRAPH."
Especially you should be contrite for:
"NOW GO DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND GO TO BED. DON'T FORGET TO BRUSH
YOUR TEETH."
For someone who has posted as much as you, you know that shouting in all caps is
exceedingly rude. Then to attack the poster with the above statement is surely
beyond all bounds of polite conversation.
anti-spam - no 'armour dot' in my address
Tom Pappas
newsgroup
>with the power to decide when, where, or how someone's "opinions are
welcomed."
>Such arrogance is unbecoming.
Same time you were appointed den mother.
>2. If you go back to your original response to the person (in this thread)
you
>will find that *your* boorish responses were not substantiated: rather,
they
>were just your pontifical remarks, viz.
The citations are on my home page, as I said in my rebuttal.
>3. You surely owe that poster an apology for the absolutely unnecessary
tone of
>your remarks.
Anyone who begins a sentence based on wild speculation with "It is also
mathematically accepted that..." should expect such ignorant nonsense to be
ridiculed.
>Especially you should be contrite for:
>For someone who has posted as much as you, you know that shouting in all
caps is
>exceedingly rude. Then to attack the poster with the above statement is
surely
>beyond all bounds of polite conversation.
Sometimes I feel shouting is justified. I will vigorously defend your right
to disagree. And as long as you don't present your uninformed opinion as
established fact, I promise not to shout at you.
>According to the actual court of Inquiry by the British Government,
>(which, admittedly while authoritative did have its own agenda vis a
>vis protecting the White Star Line) - Officer Murdoch did in fact
>immediately order 'Full Astern' immediately upon spotting the berg.
This is by no means certain. According to
http://www.livjm.ac.uk/~etmdgri1/html_files/titanic1.htm#Collision survivors
from the engine spaces said it was "All Stop". I would appreciate seeing any
authoritative evidence to the contrary you may have.
>It is also mathematically accepted that had he not done so, the ship
>probably would have turned faster and missed the berg.
I don't "mathematically accept" this statement at all. At the page cited
above, you will also find that the witnesses testified that the engine speed
didn't change until either shortly before, or shortly after, the impact.
And my own analysis at http://home.earthlink.net/~tomswift1 suggests that a
higher turn rate would only have relocated the damage further aft. I have
not seen any analysis showing that turning faster would have avoided the
collision. Have you?
This in large
>part has been chalked up to the simple inexperience of ALL officers
>including the Captain, in handleing ships THAT large. We saw problems
>with this in the Titanics near collision with the 'New York' in
>Southampton harbor, also a result of the sheer size of the ship.
Including Captain Edward J. Smith, who had commanded Olympic since her
launching? What support do you have for this assertion?
>NOW - Regarding what you mention above, take another look. It is
>Murdoch who rushes over to the round gold thing (name eludes me), and
>pulls the lever.
It's called the "engine room telegraph."
Cut to engine room, the engineer looks at an
>IDENTICAL round gold thing, freaks out,
A dramatic change in engine speed in mid-ocean can only mean serious
trouble.
and yells "Full Astern".
>That thing is what the bridge used to communicate with the engine
>room. Cameron got it right, it was Murdoch's order. (Certainly an
>understandable order, in defense of the late Mr. Murdoch, who paid for
>it with his life).
If Murdoch had NOT taken evasive action, he would almost certainly have been
condemned for needlessly sacrificing the lives of the firemen and
third-class passengers asleep in the forecastle, hundreds of whom would have
been killed instantly.
> 'Nuff 4 now, druu
Jo Gill
<toms...@earthlink.net> writes
>>DON'T BE SUCH AN ASSHOLE, AND GO TO BED AND BRUSH YOUR TEETH COZ YOU'RE THE
>ONE BEING IMMATURE!
>
>knowledge. Saying things such as "um, well, he turned the thingy" do not
>exactly exude competence in things nautical.
better. (By the way I'm not claiming I have wisdom, but I don't think
it's exactly the best thing to flame someone just because they don't
have the level of knowledge that you do. I simply flamed you back as a
sarcastic insult, but nothing major)
>--
>Half-baked Titanic theories galore at:
>http://home.earthlink.net/~tomswift1
>"But this script can't sink!"
>"She is made of irony, sir. I assure you, she can."
>
>
--
Jo Gill
Tom Pappas
>better. (By the way I'm not claiming I have wisdom, but I don't think
>it's exactly the best thing to flame someone just because they don't
>have the level of knowledge that you do. I simply flamed you back as a
>sarcastic insult, but nothing major)
Get to the point, if you have one.
Michael D. Bremseth
Tom Pappas wrote:
> >1. I must have missed the event when *you* were appointed god of this
> newsgroup
> >with the power to decide when, where, or how someone's "opinions are
> welcomed."
> >Such arrogance is unbecoming.
>
> Same time you were appointed den mother.
Cute response, but hardly responsive. Tell us all just why it is you feel you
have the power to "welcome" or not someone's opinions.
> >2. If you go back to your original response to the person (in this thread)
> you
> >will find that *your* boorish responses were not substantiated: rather,
> they
> >were just your pontifical remarks, viz.
>
> The citations are on my home page, as I said in my rebuttal.
Perhaps so, but in your response to druu, you just shout nasty arrogant remarks.
> >3. You surely owe that poster an apology for the absolutely unnecessary
> tone of
> >your remarks.
>
> Anyone who begins a sentence based on wild speculation with "It is also
> mathematically accepted that..." should expect such ignorant nonsense to be
> ridiculed.
Oh, and why is that?
> >Especially you should be contrite for:
>
> >For someone who has posted as much as you, you know that shouting in all
> caps is
> >exceedingly rude. Then to attack the poster with the above statement is
> surely
> >beyond all bounds of polite conversation.
>
> Sometimes I feel shouting is justified. I will vigorously defend your right
> to disagree. And as long as you don't present your uninformed opinion as
> established fact, I promise not to shout at you.
Boy, do I feel better. Who cares if you "promise not to shout at" me? You truly
are busting the "legend in your own mind" scale.
> <snip of reasonable presentation>
Too bad you didn't respond to druu as reasonably the first time. No one is
doubting your facts or interpretation, just you method of presentation.
SaraSommer
>>KNowledge is all very well and good if you're in Uni, but WISDOM is much
>>better. (By the way I'm not claiming I have wisdom, but I don't think
>>it's exactly the best thing to flame someone just because they don't
>>have the level of knowledge that you do. I simply flamed you back as a
>>sarcastic insult, but nothing major)
>
>Get to the point, if you have one.
>--
Gentlemen, gentlemen, please get along!!
Am I going to have to separate you two?
:)
Andrew and Rebecca Hall
> After the iceberg is sighted it is Second Officer Lightoller who is down
> on deck who calls the engine room...
No. Not even close. Lightoller was not involved in this sequence, either
in real life or in the movie. He was off watch, dozing in his bunk on the
Boat Deck.
> So in answer to your question, no Murdoch did not order the engines to
> be reversed.
Yes, he did. See:
"The Night Lives On" by Walter Lord, p. 59
"Titanic: An Illustrated History" by Lynch & Marschall, p. 85
"Unsinkable," by Dan Butler, p. 67
"Discovery of the Titanic" by Robert Ballard, p. 20
and so on. . . .
> I hope I have helped!
Not really. Next time you might try getting your history from good
books rather than from a movie that, apparently, you didn't even watch
very closely.
----------> AH
Richard Dugan
> I'm not clear on one critical point about the actions taken by the
officers during the crucial scene
> where Titanic hits the iceberg. If my information is correct...I've
heard it said that First Officer
> Murdoch ordered the ships engines to go into reverse. But in the
movie...James Cameron
> shows us it was the commanding officer below deck that issued this
order. I'm asking this
> question because it is a critical point. If it was the commanding
officer in the engine room that
> issued the order...it makes the actions of First Officer Murdoch on the
watch totally blameless.
> I didn't see or hear the James Cameron verion of events show First
Officer Murdoch issue the
> order to reverse the engines. In this case....what happened to Titanic
wasn't his fault. That
> makes his suicide more tragic. However...if it is true that the real
Murdoch ordered the engines
> to go into reverse...then why didn't James Cameron mention this?
>
> Please reply to the newsgroup as the email address is faked to avoid spam.
After the iceberg is sighted it is Second Officer Lightoller who is down
on deck who calls the engine room...he orders all boilers shut and engines
full steam in reverse...this is after First Officer Murdoch, who is on
watch, sees the iceberg for the first time and orders the boat "Hard
Starboard". When they realise there is no way they will be able to avoid
a collision by turning the boat, and note the Captain is still nowhere to
be seen at this time, then First Officer Lightoller orders the boat to
reverse. This all takes place within a few seconds so it is hard to pick
up. So in answer to your question, no Murdoch did not order the engines to
be reversed. I also feel that Murdoch's suicide was very tragic but also
somewhat selfish...it was clear to see that he was most in control of
transporting people into the lifeboats and seeing them to safety, but then
he must have been under extreme pressure , especially trying to escort the
women and children as first priority.
druu
wrote:
JUST TO ADD ---
I'm not a sailor, but I am guessing that when Murdock orders
"Full Reverse", the engine room gets the message immediately, BUT,
imagine you are driving at 60mph and the order comes to you -"Full
Reverse!" Do you slam the car into reverse? No, of course not. You
BRAKE the car, slow it down to stop even, and then, when the engine is
ready, THEN you call out "Reverse the engines, now!" Sound Familar?
Andrew and Rebecca Hall
> I'm not a sailor, but I am guessing that when Murdock orders
> "Full Reverse", the engine room gets the message immediately, BUT,
> imagine you are driving at 60mph and the order comes to you -"Full
> Reverse!" Do you slam the car into reverse? No, of course not. You
> BRAKE the car, slow it down to stop even, and then, when the engine is
> ready, THEN you call out "Reverse the engines, now!" Sound Familar?
First Officer Murdoch did indeed order the engines reversed; see my
earlier posting on this thread for the references. The confusion about
what's shown in the movie lies in the fact that on Titanic, as in the
case of most ships even today, those on the bridge do not control the
engines directly. The engines were actually controlled by the engineering
officers in the Reciprocating Engine and Turbine Engine rooms, who had
to coordinate a whole series of operations to shut down the engines, shift
over the connections, and get them going the other way.
The automobile analogy is not very apt, because it was not necessary to
slow or stop the vessel in order to reverse the engines. But it was a
very complex and time-consuming operation, one which I thought the film
captured very well. It's generally felt that Murdoch's order to reverse
engines had no noticable effect on Titanic's speed in the thirty-odd seconds
between the order and the actual collision.
If you are seriously interested in the operation and management of
Titanic's machinery, you should visit Dr. Denis Griffiths' excellent
website at:
http://www.livjm.ac.uk/~etmdgri1/
---------> Andy Hall