"Best Arbuckle Keaton Collection"
RPalmer151
Has anybody else got this one yet? It truly does appear to be the "best"
collection, especially in comparison with the Kino editions, which I also own
(but will still keep.) I was especially gratified with the crystal clear
version of THE GARAGE (my favoriteArbuckle/Keaton) and the much more sane
accompaniment. In fact, I think I'll go watch it again right now....
-roger Pee.
flatheadmt
Norm
"RPalmer151" <rpalm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021023175506...@mb-fu.aol.com...
James Roots
> news:20021023175506...@mb-fu.aol.com...
>> I received my DVD copy of the above from DigitalEyes a couple of days
> ago.
>> Has anybody else got this one yet? It truly does appear to be the "best"
>> collection, especially in comparison with the Kino editions, which I also
> own
Why "especially in comparison with the Kino editions"?
Jim
RPalmer151
>
The prints on many look better - some are David Shepard restorations, others
are from Lobster films, and I believe solely from 35 mm. Also the music is
supplied by Neil Brand and David Behari, alot more traditional than the Alloy
Orchestra versions (although I do like the Alloy, too). Unfortunately, though,
MOONSHINE is in extremely truncated form, as that was all that existed of it in
35 mm. (Kino is more complete in this regard.)
-roger Pee.
Dan
to be an excellent buy. I've seen the Kino videos and the print
quality on this new set is as good or better - especially on THE
GARAGE. THE GARAGE and OH DOCTOR seem to be the same prints (with
same music) found in the SLAPSTICK ENCYCLOPEDIA. The music for the
remaining films is piano accompaniment which works well.
The set also includes a booklet that gives a brief overview of
Keaton's apprenticeship under Arbuckle and the films are presented in
chronological order so that you can see the Keaton influence on
Arbuckle as it developed from THE BUTCHER BOY to THE GARAGE. So for
the price of one of the Kino Arbuckle/Keaton videos, you can get the
complete set which, to my eyes and ears, is just as good.
bpnjensen
Agreed. I watched a few last evening, and some of these prints better
the Kino's - but not all. THE GARAGE on Image, for one, is
extraordinarily beautiful and a joy to watch; but I think BUTCHER BOY
quality is a bit better on Kino. Also in Kino's favor, given the
choice of the beautiful but heavily truncated MOONSHINE or the poor
but essentially complete MOONSHINE on Kino, which unlike the Image has
(1) the hilarious early scenes with Alice battling her suitor/father,
(2) Buster and Al acting like monkeys in the tree, and (3) the
exploding cabin sequence, I'll take the Kino.
I've never been bothered by the Alloy scores, so the music isn't too
critical to me.
However, if you do not already have the OH, DOCTOR! and HIS WEDDING
NIGHT (which has a few very short scenes missing, I think), the Image
set has these. Personally, I'm glad to have both.
Bruce Jensen
BlakeMF
WEST, CONEY ISLAND and HIS WEDDING NIGHT.
Those prints I saw looked GREAT! The scores were very good and did not
interfere with the viewing.
It was really interesting to see Buster express emotions (smiling, laughing,
crying, etc.) in these films. And it is easy to see why Arbuckle was so popular
at the time.
Very much worth the price of admission!
Michael F. Blake
Rodney Sauer
> I actually dislike several of the Alloy Orchestra's scores because
> they (a) are too busy, and distract from the film; (b) presume the
> anachronistic quality of the film and proceed like they're staging
> some kind of postmodern art-event, with crazy sound effects and
> purposely outre instruments.
Say what you will about their music (and I know you will), Alloy's sound
effects are right on the money every time. After suffering the
wood-blocks and slide whistles of outrageous comedy scores in the past,
it's refreshing that when a bicycle falls to the ground, it sounds like
someone in the studio dropped a bicycle on the ground. Or when Buster
falls off the counter, there is a composite THUMP-thump matching the
various bits of him hitting the ground.
Rodney Sauer
rod...@mont-alto.com
The Mont Alto Ragtime and Tango Orchestra
and The Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
http://www.mont-alto.com/
bpnjensen
Agreed, except -
"The Garage" is definitely a new and truly beautiful print. One needs
only to watch the very opening gag, absolutely pristine and complete,
to realize that this one is different, and a true winner.
Bruce Jensen
Rob Farr
print than the one in "Slapstick Encyclopedia". In the SE version, Roscoe
is polishing the car window from the inside, then a jump cut reveals him
leaning out the window frame. The Kino and the Shepard versions have
totally different title cards. Most likely the intertitles went through so
many translations from English to Czech to Rohauer and back to English, that
its well nigh impossible to determine what they originally said.
Rob Farr
--
Mugshots: Forgotten Silent Comics
www.netcom.com/~lippfarr/mugshots.htm
Slapsticon July10-13, 2003
http://home.netcom.com/~lippfarr/SlapsticonPreview.htm
"bpnjensen" <bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
bpnjensen
> If the opening gag in "The Best A-K" is complete, then it is a different
> print than the one in "Slapstick Encyclopedia". In the SE version, Roscoe
> is polishing the car window from the inside, then a jump cut reveals him
> leaning out the window frame.
Right. The new print on Best A-K features this lovely gag without any
appreciable skips or intertitles stuck in the middle. It is a joy to
have it complete. It is also virtually without any significant
missing segments anywhere else, which makes it the preferred version
now. The ending is superior to anything elsewhere, with several extra
seconds of footage showing Buster, Roscoe and Fanny driving away after
the three of them land in the car. The section where Buster and
Roscoe awaken to the false fire bell appears to be absolutely complete
(no missing frames). There are other minor examples as well where
sequences are more complete.
It also happens to be an excellent print. The detail compared to
other prints is remarkable, especially compared to the poor print on
Kino's A-K set. The difference in quality between sets is not as
apparent on the other films, but several do look a bit better.
> The Kino and the Shepard versions have totally different title cards. Most likely the intertitles went through so many translations from English to Czech to Rohauer and back to English, that its well nigh impossible to determine what they originally said.<
Probably very true. The new Best A-K edition has most of the same
modern titles found in the SE, which is not surprising considering the
source. These are quite different than some in the Kino A-K
collection. One distinct difference noted right off between Best A-K
and SE was that, when Fanny is first introduced by an intertitle, the
card in Best A-K does not mention that she loves "riding the pole." I
think the title mention of the "Benzene Shower" given Jim by Roscoe
and Buster may be omitted also, but I might have blinked there.
There has always been a peculiar title in the middle of the "benzene
shower" sequence that reads something like "we'll fix/solve this
little problem." It seems like that card ought to be placed earlier
in that sequence. The placement is the same in this new edition.
There are also a few short, apparent stretch-printed segments early in
the film; but these are not intrusive, and work fine. Overall, the
few quibbles are minor and the positive aspects are substantial. The
Best A-K version uses the same score as the SE version, although (I
cannot be certain) it may be replayed by the photoplayer artist for
this new version to fit the slightly longer running time.
I am puzzled as to why Image chose to place 8 films on one disc and 4
on the other, necessitating dual layering on one disc. There is
apparently a tiny "skip" (more like a flutter) in CONEY ISLAND that
may be the result of this set-up. Wouldn't six on each disc have
eliminated this need?
I will keep the Kino set because (a) I like some of the Alloy scores,
(b) many of the Kino prints are edited a bit differently (and most of
them look quite nice) and (c) it has a more complete MOONSHINE.
However, the more I watch it, the more I think this Image set is one
of the great bargains of silents on DVD. Nearly four hours of
generally superb films (both content and print quality) for a one-disc
price? How can you beat it? Thanks greatly, Image and Mr. Shepard &
Co.
Bruce Jensen
Bert Laney
comparison between the Kino and Film Preservation Associates versions
of the Arbuckle-Keaton shorts. Since I haven't seen this addressed in
detail in any reviews, I decided to do my own comparisons. I'm sure
other people have more patience than I do for this sort of thing, and
perhaps better viewing equipment. Regardless, here's my list of which
version I will choose for my future personal viewing. (NOTE: The Kino
versions tend to run a little longer but I didn't try to look in
detail for extra material, although it occasionally stands out, so
this could just be a question of transfer speed.)
1. Butcher Boy: Kino. The picture quality is roughly the same in both
versions but the Kino is longer (29 vs. 24 minutes). The
scene-specific tining in the Kino version makes this more attractive
and comprehesensible than the straight B&W found on the FPA version.
In particular, the blue tints in the Kino version help establish the
outdoor night time settings. This is one of my favorites; the last
half at the school is just wonderful. There's one scene where several
people are squirming around at once in different parts of the picture,
which I find somehow radical and fun compared to carefully composed
modern pictures which diligently try to focus your attention on one
action at the time.
2. Rough House: Kino. Both versions have roughly the same length and
picture quality. However, I prefer the tinting on the Kino version
over the B&W on the FPA version.
3. His Wedding Night: FPA. Not found on the Kino version (an end note
in the FPA version says it's from a Russian Archive presumably not
accesible to Kino). This is the only short I hadn't seen before. It
looks as good as, and is just as funny as, most of the others.
4. Oh Doctor: FPA. Not found on the Kino version.
5. Coney Island: Kino. Picture quality is roughly the same in both
versions. The Kino version may be slightly longer. I prefer the
tinting on the Kino version over the B&W on FPA version.
6. Out West. FPA. Picture quality on the FPA is significantly better
than on the Kino version. The FPA version is also more complete (21
vs. 18 minutes). The FPA version begins with Fatty on a train while
the Kino version starts well ahead inside the bar. The FPA version has
a GREAT score on this one. It sounds like it's from old 78's; if so,
they're extremely well-transfered and appropriate to the action.
7. Bell Boy. Tie. The picture quality on the FPA is slightly better,
the Kino is slightly longer (28 vs. 26 minutes). A few night time
scenes are tinted blue on the FPA version while the rest is B&W. The
Kino version is tinted throughout.
8. Moonshine. Kino. The picture quality on the FPA is far, far better
than on the Kino. The Kino version is so washed out and contrasty it's
sometimes hard to make out the action. However, the Kino is far, far
more complete than the FPA (23 vs. only 6 minutes). The FPA version
clearly identifies this as but a few fragments found in an Italian
archive.
9. Goodnight, Nurse. Kino. The picture quality is better on the Kino
version. Also the Kino version seems to run about 2 minutes longer.
Finally, I prefer the tinting on the Kino version over the B&W on FPA
version. I love the rainy scene at the beginning of this one.
10. Backstage. Kino. The picture quality is better on the Kino version
and it runs longer (almost 26 vs. 21 minutes).
11. The Hayseed. FPA. The Kino version seems to run a little longer
(25 vs. 22 minutes) but the picture quality on the FPA is better. Both
are tinted.
12. The Garage. FPA. The Kino is a combination of at least two prints.
At its best, the picture quality is very good, perhaps even better
than on the FPA version. However, significant sections of the Kino are
taken from only a fair quality print, including the first two minutes.
The FPA is consistently very good throughout. Both versions seem to be
roughly complete. Both are tinted appropriately, including a red tint
during the fire. This is one of my favorites. I especially like the
gag with the oily flowers. Black oil is something I well know from
driving an old diesel car.
I should mention that, in general, the two versions have profoundly
different intertitles, probably due to the fact that one if not both
companies used foreign-language prints and translated everything back
to English. Also, of course, the scores are very different. Some
people don't care for the Alloy Orchestra scores on the Kino version.
I quite like them. I should also say that the FPA version represents
an excellent value - the entire 2-DVD FPA set costs less than either
of the 1-DVD Kino setes.
Bottom line score: Kino 6, FPA 5, one tie. So the sets are very evenly
matched. This could just be my imagination, but I suspect that FPA
compared their versions with the previously-issued Kino versions and,
when they felt they had the better material, they went the extra mile
to tint it and, in at least one case, give it an extra-special score;
conversely, where FPA felt Kino had the better version, they provide
only an untinted B&W version with a simple classic piano or
synthesizer score. Kino seems to have put the same effort into every
title and is thus more consistent.
Someday, years from now, perhaps the best versions of these shorts
will be combined, along with a thirteenth one recently rediscovered
and scheduled for inclusion on a Milestone set in early 2003. In the
meanwhile, true fans are forced to buy two less-than-definitive sets.
If you buy both sets, and if you don't trust my opinion, which is fair
enough, you're then stuck with the aggravation of deciding which
version to watch, and in many cases the differences ain't subtle.
Bert Laney
Bill Coleman
of these films be not completeness of print, but
frames per second?
Bill Coleman
------------------------------
"Bert Laney" <bert....@cox.net> wrote in message
news:fdb5489f.02102...@posting.google.com...
Rob Farr
considering that Arbuckle was persona non grata for so many years after
their release. That multiple prints would survive is even more astounding.
No doubt after Milestone releases The Cook and A Reckless Romeo someone will
discover A County Hero and we'll have to by a fourth disc. A set called
"The Really, Really, No Really Best Arbuckle/Keaton Collection" would
include the surviving non-Keaton comiques.. Does anything other than Love
exist? And since Love resides in the Danish Filmmuseum, will that be added
to the Cook and Romeo disc? Dennis?
Karamzin
> Could the difference in running times on some
> of these films be not completeness of print, but
> frames per second?
>
> Bill Coleman
>
> ------------------------------
>
> "Bert Laney" <bert....@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:fdb5489f.02102...@posting.google.com...
> > will be combined, along with a thirteenth one recently rediscovered
> > and scheduled for inclusion on a Milestone set in early 2003. In the
> > meanwhile, true fans are forced to buy two less-than-definitive sets.
> > If you buy both sets, and if you don't trust my opinion, which is fair
> > enough, you're then stuck with the aggravation of deciding which
> > version to watch, and in many cases the differences ain't subtle.
> >
> > Bert Laney
The differences in running times is because of fps, the FPA collection
is more complete in overall footage. The Kino versions are limited to
whatever Rohauer had (most of which were severely truncated Czech
versions). Too bad no one has put back in the wonderful NYC 14th
street footage missing from every restoration of THE ROUGH HOUSE (it
was shown at the '93 Cinecon but I seem to be the only one who gives a
damn).
Not enough choices? If you have a nonregional DVD player, you can
also get Lobster Films' four DVD set from Arte (Amazon.fr) of all the
Keaton silent shorts (from BUTCHER BOY through LOVE NEST) and
including THE COOK. The OUT WEST, GARAGE, HARD LUCK, DAYDREAMS and
LOVE NEST prints also contain all the recently found footage, plus you
get HIS WEDDING NIGHT to boot.
Ed Watz
Brent Walker
> Thnaks for the valuable service Bert. The survival rate on these is amazing
> considering that Arbuckle was persona non grata for so many years after
> their release. That multiple prints would survive is even more astounding.
> No doubt after Milestone releases The Cook and A Reckless Romeo someone will
> discover A County Hero and we'll have to by a fourth disc. A set called
> "The Really, Really, No Really Best Arbuckle/Keaton Collection" would
> include the surviving non-Keaton comiques.. Does anything other than Love
> exist? And since Love resides in the Danish Filmmuseum, will that be added
> to the Cook and Romeo disc? Dennis?
>
> Rob Farr
I believe THE SHERIFF also exists.
I thought LOVE was among the very funniest Arbuckle Comiques I've
seen, Keaton or no Keaton. And the nitrate print that the Cineteca
del Friuli has is astonishingly good quality.
Brent Walker
Philip
"Karamzin" <edb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:37f44daa.02103...@posting.google.com...
> Not enough choices? If you have a nonregional DVD player, you can
> also get Lobster Films' four DVD set from Arte (Amazon.fr) of all the
> Keaton silent shorts (from BUTCHER BOY through LOVE NEST) and
> including THE COOK. The OUT WEST, GARAGE, HARD LUCK, DAYDREAMS and
> LOVE NEST prints also contain all the recently found footage, plus you
> get HIS WEDDING NIGHT to boot.
>
> Ed Watz
Unfortunately, though, the MOONSHINE in this set is the shorter version.
The only drawback to this otherwise excellent set.
Mile Films
exist? And since Love resides in the Danish Filmmuseum, will that be added
Sorry Rob, but we've already added a lovely version of NUMBER, PLEASE (I wanted
all three to be set in amusement parks) and we've just spent WAY too much money
putting THE COOK together to spend more. (We just had our fourth editing
session two days ago to improve it a little more.) However, your first on the
list for a freebie -- the original press kit was a big help!
And for all those out there who have asked, the official release date is
February 11, but we'll be offering the VHS early for the holidays to
individuals. (No DVD, as Image has to keep their release date very strictly).
Stay tuned for the announcement.
Dennis Doros
Milestone Film & Video
email: Mile...@aol.com
website: www.milestonefilms.com