G dubbers want your opinion (long but perhaps interesting)

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Dr.Love

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May 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/8/98
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>Please-- no flaming, but we honestly would like your feedback. Tell us what
>you thought was good, bad, funny. Where did we get the story wrong?
>Anything...


The only problem I have is that more often than not, the actors doing the
dubbing aren't too good at expressing their emotions through just the use of
their voice, making them come out sounding wooden or insincere. Other times
they seem to overact, going over the top a little too often. Making the
words synch to the lips is no big deal, I've just sorta trained myself not
to look too closely at the lips and concentrate on other stuff - like how
you look at someone's eyebrows and forehead when you want to give the
impression of looking directly at them but you're too nervous to make eye
contact (useful on job interviews to all you younger folks).

So there ya' go - work on emotions a little more.

=Dr.Love


joe...@yahoo.com

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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I was on the team of dubbers who dubbed a number of the 1990s G movies for
video. Two of them are the recent TriStar releases of G vs King Ghidorah and
G vs Mothra: Battle for the End of the World (did I get that title right?).
And I'm pretty sure two more will be out in a few weeks.

A couple of weeks ago I started lurking around here to try to glean
information about the aformentioned video releases. You see, we dubbers are
usually kept in the dark about who the client is, and where and when the
movies we dub will be released. Sometimes we're not even clear on the titles
of the films.

While lurking I read some, shall we say, *unfavorable* comments about the
dubbing from some of the folks who have already had a chance to check out the
newly released videos. I mentioned some of the bad comments to my fellow
dubbers...and now we're all very interested in hearing more about what you
have to say.

Understand that we had *nothing* to do with the EP speed of the videos or
the cover art or the price or anything else...just the dubbing and the
English scriptwriting.

Please-- no flaming, but we honestly would like your feedback. Tell us what
you thought was good, bad, funny. Where did we get the story wrong?
Anything...

Most of us on the team can only take credit/blame for the most recent G video
dubbing, but there are a couple of old-timers we work with who have been
dubbing/scripting G movies for many years. So comments about the dubbing of
the older G movies would be of some interest to us, as well.

Thanks. We're looking forward to hearing what you have to say.

--Tofu

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Pet Post

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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>>I was on the team of dubbers who dubbed a number of the 1990s G movies for
>video.

Can you give us your credentials and substantiate this claim? Did you work for
Manga UK or were you contracted by a subsidirary to dub the voices?

Jim in Seattle

NOW OPEN!!! The Kumi Mizuni Fan Page! Pics! Sound! More!
Check it out from my web page: members.aol.com/petpost/index.html
Also Just Updated!

joe...@yahoo.com

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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In article <199805090211...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
pet...@aol.com (Pet Post) wrote:

> joetofu said:
> >>I was on the team of dubbers who dubbed a number of the 1990s G movies for
> >video.
>
Pet Post said:

> Can you give us your credentials and substantiate this claim? Did you work for
> Manga UK or were you contracted by a subsidirary to dub the voices?
>
> Jim in Seattle

joetofu replied:

Give you my credentials? It's not like I have a dubbing license or anything.

I live in Hong Kong, and, among other things I do for a living, I work for a
guy who contracts to dub films and TV series. A few months ago we did some G
films, but we also dub lots of other stuff, too. I've never heard of Manga
UK.

Like I said in my orignal post, I was at a gig yesterday and mentioned to
some of my fellow dubbers that I had read some disparaging remarks here about
the dubbing of the TriStar releases. Someone particularly mentioned the
high-pitched voices of all the female characters in G vs Mothra: Battle for
the End of the World. (By the way, I haven't seen the TriStar releases
myself, so I can't be 100% certain *we* dubbed them-- but we *did* dub those
titles recently, and I can't imagine who else would've paid us to dub them).

My colleagues were real interested to hear what the comments were (espcially
the girls: "High-pitched voices?!!!") At first I thought I'd try checking one
of the usenet archives to dig up the relavent postings. But then figured it
would be too much of a hassle, and that it would be more interesting to
publicly ask here for feedback from G fans about our work. We dub hours and
hours of stuff that we seldom ever see, and we never get to hear comments
from the people who watch it. So, we're interested.

Beyond what I just said, you're just going to have to take my word for it,
Jim.

So what do you think of the dubbing on the TriStar releases?

Boyd Campbell

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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Are you, by any chance, an actor? That seems to be the biggest
problem with dubbing is that the acting is so bad. Granted it's
pretty tough to act the voice for somebody else's body but it's
still possible.

It wouldn't bother me at all if they just gave up trying to lip-
synch the dubbing and just let the voice talent just deliver the
lines the best they can.

--

/----------- Email:Cam...@netdoor.com ----------\
| |
| King Kong |
| http://www2.netdoor.com/~campbab/kong.html |
| Willis O'Brien |
| http://www2.netdoor.com/~campbab/Obie.html |
| |
\------------------------------------------------/

Christopher Paris

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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joe...@yahoo.com wrote in message <6j14f0$blr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

>
>Give you my credentials? It's not like I have a dubbing license or
anything.


Thanks for posting. I am very interested in hearing more (perhaps you'd
like to be interviewed for a future World of Fandom article?) But in all
honesty, posting as "Joe Tofu" of yahoo.com does raise some eyebrows. I
think we'd all be interested in your insight, but we'd like to know its
legit. Hope you don't take offense. With my luck, your true name is
probably "Tofu" and I've just insulted your whole family.

CP

Sigmund C. Shen

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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Christopher Paris (cpa...@NOSPAMmh101.infi.net) wrote:
> With my luck, your true name is
> probably "Tofu" and I've just insulted your whole family.

Sorry, Chris, but you haven't just insulted his family. You
have also insulted the Shaolin Temple.

OtiGoji

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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>Sorry, Chris, but you haven't just insulted his family. You
>have also insulted the Shaolin Temple.

That's not an insult!

'Tofu!"
"Gesundheit!"

THAT'S an insult to the Shaolin Temple!

OtiGoji
"Everyone remaining in the city was on a 'watch and wait' basis.
The wait was not a long one."


Christopher Paris

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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Sigmund C. Shen wrote in message <6j23rj$q0s$1...@news.nyu.edu>...

>Sorry, Chris, but you haven't just insulted his family. You
>have also insulted the Shaolin Temple.

Man, do I hope you're only kidding!

CP

joe...@yahoo.com

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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In article <355420EF...@netdoor.com>,

cam...@netdoor.com wrote:
>
> Are you, by any chance, an actor? That seems to be the biggest
> problem with dubbing is that the acting is so bad. Granted it's
> pretty tough to act the voice for somebody else's body but it's
> still possible.
>
> It wouldn't bother me at all if they just gave up trying to lip-
> synch the dubbing and just let the voice talent just deliver the
> lines the best they can.
>

A couple of the current team of dubbers have had some acting experience, but
beyond the "acting" we do for dubbing, most of us could not claim to be
professional actors. Clowns, perhaps, but not *thespians*.

I appreciate what you say about our acting, but I'd like to suggest in our
defense that the original acting you see on the screen in most of the stuff
we dub is seldom award winning. As voice actors, we are greatly constrained
by what the orginal screen actor does. Also, it's pretty rare to have a
character that has a lot of depth in the kinds of movies we dub. I'm not
saying the movies are necessarily bad (though a lot are *awful*), it's just
that as voice actors (and same might be said of the screen actors) there just
isn't always a lot a material to work with.

Sometimes I wonder if it has something to do with the Asian-ness of the types
of films we dub. That is to say, even in many of the *good* films we dub, a
lot of the characters seem real flat and stereotypical. Maybe that is a
particular aspect of Asia storytelling-- stories have a more fable-like
quality, or rely more on easily-identified character-types, than on in-depth
individual characters.

Then again, maybe our acting does suck.

Also, with all due respect, I think you would *not* like it if the words did
not match the screen actors' lips. That's got to be the number-one complaint
one hears about dubbing.

Thanks for responding. I'll pass your comments on to the rest of the dubbing
gang.

--J.Tofu

LEGION2286

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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>just insulted his family. You
>>have also insulted the Shaolin Temple.

Sounds like Bruce Lee from Enter the Dragon

"Woe be unto him who opens one of the seven gateways to Hell
because through that gateway evil will invade the world." -- The Beyond

Clevanator

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
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>
>>just insulted his family. You
>>>have also insulted the Shaolin Temple.
>
>Sounds like Bruce Lee from Enter the Dragon
>
>

Wasn't the phrase, ".. has offended Shaolin Temple"??


Cleve


"Jim!! You'll be killed. Just like Decker!!"

joe...@yahoo.com

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
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In article <6j1hq0$6k2$1...@nw003t.infi.net>,

"Christopher Paris" <cpa...@NOSPAMmh101.infi.net> wrote:
>
>
> joe...@yahoo.com wrote in message <6j14f0$blr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

joe tofu wrote:
> >
> >Give you my credentials? It's not like I have a dubbing license or
> >anything.

then Christopher Paris (a likely name!) wrote:

> Thanks for posting. I am very interested in hearing more (perhaps you'd
> like to be interviewed for a future World of Fandom article?) But in all
> honesty, posting as "Joe Tofu" of yahoo.com does raise some eyebrows. I
> think we'd all be interested in your insight, but we'd like to know its

> legit. Hope you don't take offense. With my luck, your true name is


> probably "Tofu" and I've just insulted your whole family.
>

> CP
>

I didn't take offense.

And yeah, I see what you mean. There's kind of a story behind the name Joe
Tofu, but we won't get into that. It's just a handle I use when posting to
news groups. I'm not paranoid or anything, but I do want to keep some control
over my privacy. No telling how many psycho dubber-stalkers are lurking.

But why would I lie about being a dubber (psycho-pathology aside)? It's a fun
gig, and it pays pretty well too...when we're working. But it ain't that big
a deal, and it certainly isn't glamorous. It's just a job.

--"Joe Tofu" (but call me Craig if that makes you more comfortable)

Pet Post

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
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<<Give you my credentials? It's not like I have a dubbing license or
anything.>>

There's no need to be flip about it. If you are REALLY one of the actors whose
voice is used in the Manga UK releases of "G vs KG" and "G vs M" I would like
to know which character you dubbed for, on each film.

I think most of the participants in this NG would agree that the dubbing is
more akin to ANIME English dubbing. Most of us have been spoiled by the dubbing
work of the studios that American International used (whether in house or
sub-contractors.) But the dubbing in the recent releases show the obvious lack
of talent, training and familiarization of the characters, culture and story of
each film.

Boyd Campbell

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
to

joe...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
>
> A couple of the current team of dubbers have had some acting
> experience, but beyond the "acting" we do for dubbing, most
> of us could not claim to be professional actors. Clowns, perhaps,
> but not *thespians*.

If ya'll enjoy doing this and make a little money at it then
maybe it wouldn't hurt to take a few acting classes. Nothing
too in depth, just enough to loosen you up.



> Sometimes I wonder if it has something to do with the Asian-ness
> of the types of films we dub. That is to say, even in many of
> the *good* films we dub, a lot of the characters seem real flat
> and stereotypical. Maybe that is a particular aspect of Asia
> storytelling-- stories have a more fable-like quality, or rely
> more on easily-identified character-types, than on in-depth
> individual characters.

Traditional asian acting is very different from european
models. It's much more stylized and rigid than what you
see in european acting which has been mostly based on the
Stanislavski method for the last 70 years.

I would hesitate to call it bad. Many asian actors have
an awful lot more training than their european counterparts
although it's in a different style.

> Also, with all due respect, I think you would *not* like it if
> the words did not match the screen actors' lips. That's got to
> be the number-one complaint one hears about dubbing.

I dunno. I can't help but think that if you turned in a
really kick-ass performance nobody would notice the lip
thing. If the voice sounds really natural and motivated
then the lip synch isn't nearly as noticible. This is
particularly evident in animation where the lips aren't
even close to what the voice is saying.

joe...@yahoo.com

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
to

In article <199805100129...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
pet...@aol.com (Pet Post) wrote:

>>joetofu said:
> ><<Give you my credentials? It's not like I have a dubbing license or
> >anything.>>

Pet Post said:
> There's no need to be flip about it.

Relax. It was just a joke.

> If you are REALLY one of the actors whose
> voice is used in the Manga UK releases of "G vs KG" and "G vs M" I would >like
> to know which character you dubbed for, on each film.

Well, it's been several months since we dubbed them, and we did them all in
the same couple of weeks. So, they kind of run together in my mind. Also, we
dubbed them using a technique called "looping" (as opposed to doing it on
video). Looping means that we record the dialogue track directly onto loops
of film that are about 10 to 30 seconds long. I don't fully understand why we
do it that way...but I think it results in betters sound quality. The thing
is though, we don't see the loops in proper order. The director arranges the
loops in the most efficient way for dubbing. That way all the loops with
crowds are done together, for instance. Or, say, if the character that I am
doing is only in a few loops, we'll dub those together so that I'll be out of
there faster-- and the boss won't have to pay me as much. But it does make
comprehending the story really difficult.

So anyway, to answer your question, I know that I'm hardly in the Mothra
one-- I think I'm just in the panicked crowds and maybe a couple of lines for
a general or something. (I usually get the older male roles.) And that movie
mostly had female roles (kids and fairies). So, I didn't see many loops.

If I remember correctly, in G vs KG my main role was as a scientist guy who
manages a laboratory that studies Godzilla, or something like that. This
scientist has to convince some whiz kid who is an expert on Godzilla to join
forces with the lab to stop Godzilla. And I did a small assortment of other
one-off male roles.

It was in G vs Space G, which I *think* will be in the next release from
TriStar, that I had a really big part. I play a cynical old air force pilot
who has dropped out of society to live on a deserted island (Godzilla was on
the island too?). Apparently, he is the only man alive who can properly fly
this fancy flying weapon thing (can't remember what it was). He reluctantly
agrees to come back...and ends up saving the day.

It was also in that one (or was it G vs Destroyah-- which we dubbed at the
same time) that I got particular kudos from my fellow dubbers for my
blood-curdling scream voicing a night-watchman at an aquarium who gets eaten.
The watchman hums "Singing in the Rain" to himself just before he gets
it...if my memory serves. I think the grizzled old pilot in G vs Space G also
hums "Singing in the Rain" to himself.

Like I said, other than the grizzled old pilot in G vs Space G, I might be
getting G vs KGh., G vs M and G vs Destroyah mixed up.

> I think most of the participants in this NG would agree that the dubbing is
> more akin to ANIME English dubbing.

I'm not sure what you mean. We were too over-the-top with it?

>Most of us have been spoiled by the >dubbing
> work of the studios that American International used (whether in house or
> sub-contractors.) But the dubbing in the recent releases show the obvious >lack
> of talent, training and familiarization of the characters, culture and story of
> each film.
>

I will plead guilty to charges of lack of familiarity of with the story of
each film. All the English script-writer gets is a translation of the
Japanese; there's no briefing on the background or history of the stories, or
anything like that. So sometimes he doesn't fully comprehend what's supposed
to be happening, and sometimes we have to make last-minute changes to the
script in the studio...I know we sometimes get the details wrong. If you
noticed any mistakes in the two recent TriStar releases, tell us. We can't
change it now, but I'd still be interested to know.

I'm not sure what you mean by not being familiar with the "culture" of the
films. Do you mean Japanese culture in general? Or do you mean some sort of
Godzilla culture? Can you point to anything specific? (Seriously. I'm not
trying to challenge you...I'm interested.)

Talent and training? I guess I can't help you there. Either we got it or we
ain't, and I'll count you as one vote that we ain't. Sorry. We do our best.

This is great. Tell me more. Like I said in an earlier post, I'm not looking
for abuse, but don't be shy. Tell us what think.

--J.Tofu (who's real name is Craig)

joe...@yahoo.com

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
to

In article <35554A08...@netdoor.com>,

cam...@netdoor.com wrote:
>
> joe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > A couple of the current team of dubbers have had some acting
> > experience, but beyond the "acting" we do for dubbing, most
> > of us could not claim to be professional actors. Clowns, perhaps,
> > but not *thespians*.
>
> If ya'll enjoy doing this and make a little money at it then
> maybe it wouldn't hurt to take a few acting classes. Nothing
> too in depth, just enough to loosen you up.
>
> > Sometimes I wonder if it has something to do with the Asian-ness
> > of the types of films we dub. That is to say, even in many of
> > the *good* films we dub, a lot of the characters seem real flat
> > and stereotypical. Maybe that is a particular aspect of Asia
> > storytelling-- stories have a more fable-like quality, or rely
> > more on easily-identified character-types, than on in-depth
> > individual characters.
>
> Traditional asian acting is very different from european
> models. It's much more stylized and rigid than what you
> see in european acting which has been mostly based on the
> Stanislavski method for the last 70 years.
>
> I would hesitate to call it bad. Many asian actors have
> an awful lot more training than their european counterparts
> although it's in a different style.
>

But that's what I'm saying... When we dub a film, we can only do what the
actor on screen does. And I'm telling you, we seldom get a chance to let
loose. It's not so bad in Hong Kong films, though the characters are always
so "cartooney". But the Japanese stuff we dub, the characters are always so
restrained. Sometimes we feel like there's no room for us to do anything with
it.

Also, not to make excuses, but sometimes the mixing flattens out what
subtlety we can muster. I've actually seldom seen anything I've dubbed, but
when I have, I am often surprised at how flat it sounds after the final mix.
Though some mixes sound real good. I'm not sure why that is. But I guess that
goes to show that we need more feedback-- both from fans, and from seeing our
own work-- to get better.

> > Also, with all due respect, I think you would *not* like it if
> > the words did not match the screen actors' lips. That's got to
> > be the number-one complaint one hears about dubbing.
>
> I dunno. I can't help but think that if you turned in a
> really kick-ass performance nobody would notice the lip
> thing. If the voice sounds really natural and motivated
> then the lip synch isn't nearly as noticible. This is
> particularly evident in animation where the lips aren't
> even close to what the voice is saying.
>

Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. If anyone
makes jokes or complaints about dubbing, it's usually related to bad
lip-synch. At least that's true of westerners. Asian people seem not to mind
too much if the lip-synch's bad. In fact I've heard of a director here in
Hong Kong who routinely makes huges script changes *after* the film is
finished shooting. He just has the dubbing actors say the new lines with no
regard for lip-sych. But conventional wisdom says that won't fly with western
audiences.

But it's kind of a moot point anyway. The client always wants good lip-synch.

And I'm not sure it's possible to turn in a really kick-ass performance
dubbing if the on-screen actor didn't turn in a kick-ass performance first.
We don't often get those to dub. And I don't mean to impune the fine
reputation of Godzilla films-- I like them a lot (in fact I was *really*
gassed to find out I'd get to dub some)-- but these aren't exactly
Kurasawa-quality films.

But point taken. The early consensus is our acting stinks.

What about the scripts?

-- J. Tofu (who's still really proud to be on the soundtrack of some Godzilla
films)

Susan Katz

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
to

joe...@yahoo.com wrote:
: Also, with all due respect, I think you would *not* like it if the words did

: not match the screen actors' lips. That's got to be the number-one complaint
: one hears about dubbing.

I think it's all a matter of balance. :) I've seen some dubbed films
(though none of them too recent) that try so hard to match the lips that
they stop making sense ("We will.................destroy........you now!")

Oh, and yesterday I was trying to respond to a post of yours regarding
high pitched female voices, which is something I complained about... I
don't think you're responsible for dubbing the films I complained about.
From what I've heard here, the two recent Tristar releases were dubbed
a few years ago for European release and only just got released in the
U.S. after a long delay. How many Godzilla films did you do? Perhaps
you were hired to dub the rest of the series... If this is the case,
it's exciting news for a lot of people. :)

- Demian -


Susan Katz

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
to

joe...@yahoo.com wrote:
: script in the studio...I know we sometimes get the details wrong. If you

: noticed any mistakes in the two recent TriStar releases, tell us. We can't
: change it now, but I'd still be interested to know.

Well, I'm still not sure that you did the versions that were released
here (though it sounds more and more like you did), but if you did,
the thing that bugged me the most was that one characters voice (the
girl you had to convince in GvsKG) changed dramatically from one film
to the next... :) I've always assumed that voice changes in characters
are a result of different groups of people doing different dubs, but if
the same people do them all, a little more consistency would be nice. :)

: This is great. Tell me more. Like I said in an earlier post, I'm not looking


: for abuse, but don't be shy. Tell us what think.

Well, despite any criticism I may offer, I'm glad the job has been
done. :)

- Demian -


Susan Katz

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
to

joe...@yahoo.com wrote:
: What about the scripts?

Well, I could complain a lot about those, but I think all the
things that annoyed me there were in the original Japanese,
and I was able to follow the films, so I guess the translations
were fine. :)

- Demian -
ka...@netaxs.com


Boyd Campbell

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
to

joe...@yahoo.com wrote:

> But it's kind of a moot point anyway. The client always wants
> good lip-synch.

Always do what the guy handing out the checks says to do.
It can be frustrating but part of being a good actor is
doing what you're told.



> And I'm not sure it's possible to turn in a really kick-ass
> performance dubbing if the on-screen actor didn't turn in a
> kick-ass performance first.

Sure you can. Ever seen the new cartoon show Southpark?
The visual actors there are just bits of colored paper
that hardly move at all. It's the voice actors that makes
the show work. For all the emphasis people put on how an
actor should look or how an actor should move for many,
many roles it's the voice that makes the part work or
not.

> What about the scripts?

Now that can be a real problem. For most of what I've
seen, the people who do the english translation scripts
haven't put much thought in to what they're doing.

I liked Woody Allen's movie What's Up Tigerlilly where
he took an asian adventure film and just threw out the
original script completely and re-wrote it the way he
wanted turning it into a comedy. If you can find it,
this might be a good movie to watch because it illustrates
a lot of what I've been talking about. Allen uses a lot
of the actors he was used to working with in the 70's for
the voices and it comes off pretty great.

Boyd Campbell

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May 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/10/98
to

joe...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Well, it's been several months since we dubbed them, and we did
> them all in the same couple of weeks. So, they kind of run together
> in my mind. Also, we dubbed them using a technique called "looping"
> (as opposed to doing it on video). Looping means that we record the
> dialogue track directly onto loops of film that are about 10 to 30
> seconds long. I don't fully understand why we do it that way...but I
> think it results in betters sound quality. The thing is though, we
> don't see the loops in proper order. The director arranges the
> loops in the most efficient way for dubbing. That way all the loops
> with crowds are done together, for instance. Or, say, if the character
> that I am doing is only in a few loops, we'll dub those together so
> that I'll be out of there faster-- and the boss won't have to pay me
> as much. But it does make comprehending the story really difficult.

Looping is fairly common, and to be fair, that's how principal
photography is usually done too, only over a longer peroid of
time.

Nowhere in your comments have you said anything about a
rehersal or a director working with the actors on their
parts. Is there even a director? I realize they have to
do these things cheaply, but it shouldn't be very expensive
to hire a young director wanting to get a start in film
to work with the voice talent for maybe even a week to
flesh out their performances. It would make a huge difference
in the quality of the films which should ultimatly lead to
higher revenues at the rental counter.

Heck, I would love to have a chance like that. It would be
a real challenge to work with the constraints a project like
this has but rewarding when it works. Of course there are
probably 500 other directors interested in just the same thing.

> I will plead guilty to charges of lack of familiarity of with
> the story of each film. All the English script-writer gets is
> a translation of the Japanese; there's no briefing on the
> background or history of the stories, or anything like that.
> So sometimes he doesn't fully comprehend what's supposed to be
> happening, and sometimes we have to make last-minute changes to the
> script in the studio...

Here again, you're not talking about a huge cost difference
to allow people time to read the scripts and get a better idea
of what they're up to before commiting their work to film and
there's a huge pool of writers who would just love the opportunity
to work on a project like this.


> Talent and training? I guess I can't help you there. Either we
> got it or we ain't, and I'll count you as one vote that we ain't.
> Sorry. We do our best.

It doesn't sound like it's your fault though. With just a
little help and cooperation you guys could probably do really
well. (and have a lot more fun and make a few extra dollars.)

joe...@yahoo.com

unread,
May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98
to

In article <6j4bhu$a...@netaxs.com>,
ka...@netaxs.com (Susan Katz) wrote:
'>

> Well, I'm still not sure that you did the versions that were released
> here (though it sounds more and more like you did)

I'm not *100%* sure either, but my certainty is in the high nineties. I'll be
checking the video stores here in Hong Kong this week to see if the videos
have made here, yet. Once I get my hands on them I'll know for sure.

, but if you did,
> the thing that bugged me the most was that one characters voice (the
> girl you had to convince in GvsKG) changed dramatically from one film
> to the next... :) I've always assumed that voice changes in characters
> are a result of different groups of people doing different dubs, but if
> the same people do them all, a little more consistency would be nice. :)

Even though the same basic group of dubbers did four Godzilla films last
fall, someone might not have been available on a particular day, and so the
character had to go to someone else. But it might have happened for another
reason. I know that Mothra had lots of kids and faires and a witch-- all
dubbed by women. So, the casting had to be done carefully to avoid having one
dubber take two characters who end up speaking to each other in the same
scene. So it's possible that in sorting that all out, one character was
dubbed by different people in different movies.

I'll ask the girls if they remember anything about that. Once I get to see
the videos I'll know a lot more in that regard.

I've been passing these comments to my fellow dubbers. We are fascinated.
Thanks for your feedback.

--J. Tofu

joe...@yahoo.com

unread,
May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98
to

In article <35560F59...@netdoor.com>,
cam...@netdoor.com wrote:

>
>joe tofu said:
> > And I'm not sure it's possible to turn in a really kick-ass
> > performance dubbing if the on-screen actor didn't turn in a
> > kick-ass performance first.
>
>Then Boyd said:
>
> Sure you can. Ever seen the new cartoon show Southpark?
> The visual actors there are just bits of colored paper
> that hardly move at all. It's the voice actors that makes
> the show work. For all the emphasis people put on how an
> actor should look or how an actor should move for many,
> many roles it's the voice that makes the part work or
> not.
>

Good point. I haven't seen Southpark, but I think I know what you mean.
However, I still say a lot depends on what's happeing on-screen. I've dubbed
cartoons too, and they are really liberating. The fact that facial
expressions are often cruder in 'toons than with live actors means the dubber
has a lot of room to work. You can, in a sense, fill in with your voice what
the cartoon hasn't done with expressions. Or, put another way, 'toon
characters often leave it open just exactly how a line should be delivered.
But with a live actor, there is so much more detail-- lips, eyes, head
movements-- that the dubber can't depart too far from what the original actor
did. I can't shout, or cry, or laugh if the guy on the screen isn't doing it.
With cartoons I often can.


> > What about the scripts?
>
> Now that can be a real problem. For most of what I've
> seen, the people who do the english translation scripts
> haven't put much thought in to what they're doing.

You didn't say anything specifically about the scripts of GvKGh or GvM:
Battle for the end of the world, but I'd like to defend them. They often gets
nearly unintelligable English translations to work with. They then have to
write the English to fit the lips of the on-screen characters. (And they
usually have to do *very quickly*.) I'll need to see the recent G releases to
speak about their scripts specifically, but we've had some real gems in the
past. And I seem to remember us getting a couple of good chuckles at some of
the lines one writer in particular wrote for the G flims.

However, if anyone as any thoughts about the scripts for the videos of
GvsKGhiorah and GvM:Battle... please speak up. I *know* there must be
something wrong with them.

>
> I liked Woody Allen's movie What's Up Tigerlilly where
> he took an asian adventure film and just threw out the
> original script completely and re-wrote it the way he
> wanted turning it into a comedy. If you can find it,
> this might be a good movie to watch because it illustrates
> a lot of what I've been talking about. Allen uses a lot
> of the actors he was used to working with in the 70's for
> the voices and it comes off pretty great.

I've seen it. It *is* great. But I would argue that that's not the same as
what we're supposed to be doing. In Tigerlilly, Allen took dubbing and turned
it upside down. He was drawing attention to it, and making fun of it. That's
the whole schtick of it. When we're dubbing G films or Hong Kong gangster
films, we're *supposed* to be taking it reasonably seriously. We do take it
over the top sometimes, but only when it seems called for. But if we started
departing too far from what's going on on-screen, the client would get pissed
off. And I question if we could ever get away with artistically, except in
the case of a parody like Tigerlilly.

Thanks for your comments. You've really got me to thinking. I look forward to
hearing from you again.

--J.Tofu

joe...@yahoo.com

unread,
May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98
to

In article <3556131B...@netdoor.com>,

cam...@netdoor.com wrote:
>
> joe...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Well, it's been several months since we dubbed them, and we did
> > them all in the same couple of weeks. So, they kind of run together
> > in my mind. Also, we dubbed them using a technique called "looping"
> > (as opposed to doing it on video).
> ><snip> But it does make comprehending the story really difficult.
>
Boyd replied:

> Looping is fairly common, and to be fair, that's how principal
> photography is usually done too, only over a longer peroid of
> time.

The reason I mentioned it-- besides perhaps being of general interest-- is to
justify why I can't quite remember the G films we dubbed. There seemed to be
some question about whether or not I was telling the truth about being one of
the dubbers. The point being, even if I've seen every loop in a film, since
it's all out of sequence I'm not always clear about what happened the story.


> Nowhere in your comments have you said anything about a
> rehersal or a director working with the actors on their
> parts. Is there even a director? I realize they have to
> do these things cheaply, but it shouldn't be very expensive
> to hire a young director wanting to get a start in film
> to work with the voice talent for maybe even a week to
> flesh out their performances. It would make a huge difference
> in the quality of the films which should ultimatly lead to
> higher revenues at the rental counter.

Yes we always have a director. It's usually the boss, but sometimes the
client will be there too. I sometimes do some directing too, though I didn't
on the G films. *If* we get any rehearsal at all, it's just a quick look at
what we're going to do right before actually doing it. If we are looping
we'll practice the loop two or three times, and we'll keep recording the loop
until the director is happy. On some of the real el-cheapo jobs we do, we
don't even take a look at it-- we just roll through it as fast as possible.
However, I want to make it clear that the G films were *not* cheap jobs; we
did spend time trying to do a good job.

Also, I want to make it clear that on the G films the script writer had
enough time to do a proper job. Reviewing some of my earlier posts, I think I
might have given the false impression that we had bad scripts for the G
films. I think they were pretty good, actually. However, we always have to
make last-second adjustments, and sometimes things slip through. So far,
though, no one has pointed out any mistakes in the two G releases.

I'm afraid the economics of it preclude any sort of rehearsals though. We
have to work fairly rapidly, or it just doesn't pay.

-- J. Tofu

Kevin Kuhlman

unread,
May 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/11/98
to

okay, i'll add my two scents worth. =)first thing about the GvsKG is the adding of an "r" to the end of godzilla. also the mispronunciation of Ghidorah. i havent noticed any one else say anything about this so ti hoguht i would.
also, a HUGE translation booboo seems to be in the script. the scene of which i'm speaking is in the mothership where they are first talkinga bout going back in time. the three individuals ask why them and not the soldier who was on the island. and the answer came back with that two of the same person could not be in the same time at once. THEN, and let me go pop the tape in so i can quote exactly:

"Well, maybe, but one of the mr. shindos will have to vanish anyway"

when i heard this, i was like WHAT? that makes no bloody sense. i've gone back over it a couple of times hoping that i'm just not getting it, but it simply doesn't make sense.
well thats my little shpiel of stuff.
=)
kevin the confused

 123 Godzilla Please Don't Pee on me
 

>
>     I liked Woody Allen's movie What's Up Tigerlilly where
>     he took an asian adventure film and just threw out the
>     original script completely and re-wrote it the way he
>     wanted turning it into a comedy.  If you can find it,
>     this might be a good movie to watch because it illustrates
>     a lot of what I've been talking about.  Allen uses a lot
>     of the actors he was used to working with in the 70's for
>     the voices and it comes off pretty great.

I've seen it. It *is* great. But I would argue that that's not the same as
what we're supposed to be doing. In Tigerlilly, Allen took dubbing and turned
it upside down. He was drawing attention to it, and making fun of it. That's
the whole schtick of it. When we're dubbing G films or Hong Kong gangster
films, we're *supposed* to be taking it reasonably seriously. We do take it
over the top sometimes, but only when it seems called for. But if we started
departing too far from what's going on on-screen, the client would get pissed
off. And I question if we could ever get away with artistically, except in
the case of a parody like Tigerlilly.

Thanks for your comments. You've really got me to thinking. I look forward to
hearing from you again.

--J.Tofu

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----

Pet Post

unread,
May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98
to

<<I'll ask the girls if they remember anything about that. Once I get to see
the videos I'll know a lot more in that regard.

I've been passing these comments to my fellow dubbers. We are fascinated.
Thanks for your feedback.>>

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe a word of this.

Jim in Seattle

The Kumi Mizuno Fan Page - All Bow Down To The Diva of TOHO!
http://members.aol.com/petpost/kumi.html
Photos! Filmography! Biography! Fun! Multimedia!

Joe Tofu

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May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98
to


Pet Post <pet...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199805160450...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...


> I'm sorry, but I just don't believe a word of this.
>
> Jim in Seattle

Never mind, anyway.

One of the other dubbers thinks I was premature on this. The G videos
haven't made it here to Hong Kong yet, so we can't check-- but my collegue
is pretty convinced that the four G films we dubbed last fall are *not*
included in the two releases TriStar is advertising. He's usually right
about this sort of thing. Also, on the Mothra movie advertised by TriStar
was made in 1965. The Mothra we dubbed was much later than that, and the
girls who dubbed it said Godzilla wasn't even in it (I hadn't heard that).
My collegue also thinks he heard someone say that what we dubbed would be
released in "nine months". That would make it this July or August.

So, I'm embarrassed to say that all these postings probably have been a
waste of time. Sorry. Once I hear that G vs Space G and G vs Destroyah are
out, I'll be back. Of the four we did last fall, those are the only ones I
am certain of the titles, and just a few weeks ago we did repairs to G vs
MechaG II.

But why am I telling you this? You don't believe me anyway.

--J.Tofu

Pet Post

unread,
May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98
to

<<to say that all these postings probably have been a
waste of time. Sorry. Once I hear that G vs Space G and G vs Destroyah are
out, I'll be back. Of the four we did last fall, those are the only ones I
am certain of the titles, and just a few weeks ago we did repairs to G vs
MechaG II. >>

When I see "Godzilla vs MechaGodzilla," "Godzilla vs Space Godzilla" and
"Godzilla vs Destroyer" AND "Mothra" actually for rent/sale in a
Blockbuster/Suncoast somewhere, then I'll believe it. I think you're stringing
us along big time. "J. Tofu".......jeez, gimme a break!

CAl...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
to

In article <199805160450...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,

pet...@aol.com (Pet Post) wrote:
>
>
> I'm sorry, but I just don't believe a word of this.
>
> Jim in Seattle
>
>

I tried to respond to this by posting thru my local ISP, but it's 24 hrs.
later, and I don't see it here. This has been happening a lot lately. So, I
shall re-post thru Dejanews and hope that my first one doesn't show up. If
this ends up being a double posting, I apologize.

Never mind the dubber thing anyway.

One of the other dubbers on the team thinks I was premature on this. The G


videos haven't made it here to Hong Kong yet, so we can't check-- but my
collegue is pretty convinced that the four G films we dubbed last fall are

*not* included in the two released that TriStar is advertising. He's usually
right about this sort of thing. Also, the Mothra movie currently advertised
by TriStar was made in 1965 (I think). The Mothra we dubbed last fall was


much later than that, and the girls who dubbed it said Godzilla wasn't even
in it (I hadn't heard that). My collegue also thinks he heard someone say

that what we dubbed would be released in "about nine months". That would make


it this July or August.

So, I'm embarrassed to say that all these postings probably have been a waste
of time. Sorry about that.

Once I hear that G vs Space G and G vs Destroyah are out, I'll be back. Of
the four we did last fall, those are the only ones I am certain of the titles

for. (And I *know* the title of the film we did dialogue track repairs to a
couple of weeks ago: G vs Mecha G II.)

Sorry about all this uncertainty. Like I said before, we dubbers often don't
know the titles or clients or release dates. We just dub 'em, and they fly
off into the ether. That's why I started making inquiries here in the first
place. We finally did something that I could trace. But apparently I still
haven't tracked them down.

But why am I telling you this? You don't believe me anyway.

--J.Tofu

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----

joe...@yahoo.com

unread,
May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
to

In article <199805161431...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,

pet...@aol.com (Pet Post) wrote:
>
> When I see "Godzilla vs MechaGodzilla," "Godzilla vs Space Godzilla" and
> "Godzilla vs Destroyer" AND "Mothra" actually for rent/sale in a
> Blockbuster/Suncoast somewhere, then I'll believe it. I think you're stringing
> us along big time. "J. Tofu".......jeez, gimme a break!
>
> Jim in Seattle

Fair enough.

And frankly, I don't really care if you believe me or not. But I am
interested, though, in why you think I would be making this up. I could see
it if I was claiming to be someone famous, or perhaps some big shot at
TriStar or something.

Dubbing is a fun job...and I admit that I'm enjoying what little attention my
postings have generated. But, really, it isn't *that* special.

It's just that most of the stuff we dub goes to cable TV or satellite TV
elsewhere in Asia, so we never see or hear from them again. We seldom even
get a chance to our work after the final mix with sound effects and music.
(Although a local English channel here in Hong Kong is currently showing a
series we dubbed: Journey to the West.)

That's why I was so excited that we were dubbing G films. I've been a fan of
cheesy old G films ever since I was a kid (though nothing on the level of
fandom of many of the fine people like yourself who post here)-- and this was
one of the few chances I've had to track down some of my dubbing work on
video.

Do you not believe me because of all the flaming and other adolescent crap
that seems to go on so much on this NG? I guess you think I'm trying to suck
a bunch of people into a hoax-- and then publicly (or as "publicly" as an NG
can be) humiliate you. I can see how that would be something to consider.

But what the heck is wrong with "Joe Tofu"? I rather like that handle. I'm a
vegetarian, and well, it's easy to remember...and I thought it had a kind of
friendly sound to it. I don't see you sniffing about "Clevenator" or
"Emzilla". Maybe I should call myself "Joe Tozilla" when I post here.

Hey come to think of it... "Jim from Seattle"? It's just ordinary enough to
seem authentic...but maybe just a little *too* ordinary. It's starting to
seem a little fishy to me. Alright "Jim from Seattle", or whatever your
*real* name is, what are you hiding?! I'll bet you don't even live in
Seattle! You're probably ashamed of where you really live and want people to
think you live in a really cool place. :-)

Well anyway...

Just for the record, I want you to note that the film we repaired a couple of
weeks ago was G vs Mecha G II (Roman numeral 2).

E-mail me if there are any developments either way.

-- Joseph Xavier Tofu III

Brian C.

unread,
May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
to joe...@yahoo.com

Craig,

I've been watching these posts for a while trying to figure out if
you're for real or not as well. I'm almost convinced. Before you get too
defensive, allow me to explain a few things about this newsgroup.:)

joe...@yahoo.com wrote:

>
> And frankly, I don't really care if you believe me or not. But I am
> interested, though, in why you think I would be making this up. I could see
> it if I was claiming to be someone famous, or perhaps some big shot at
> TriStar or something.

Forgive us for being paranoid but we see a lot of stuff on this page
that turns out to be hooey. A number of people post anonymously claiming
this and that and stirring things up. Usually it's pretty obvious who
the phonies are but sometimes it's not. Last year there were a number of
posts from someone claiming to be film critic Roger Ebert - we could
never verify if these were for real or not. In short a lot of people
post here who make things up - nobody knows why but they do it
nonetheless.

>
> That's why I was so excited that we were dubbing G films. I've been a fan of
> cheesy old G films ever since I was a kid (though nothing on the level of
> fandom of many of the fine people like yourself who post here)-- and this was
> one of the few chances I've had to track down some of my dubbing work on
> video.

Just a word of advice: referring to these films as "cheesy" isn't PC
around here. A lot of posters are a bit protective of what is largely a
misunderstood genre. While few would call this stuff high art,
derogatory adjectives about the films in general (even when applied with
affection) tend to ruffle feathers.:)

>
> Do you not believe me because of all the flaming and other adolescent crap
> that seems to go on so much on this NG? I guess you think I'm trying to suck
> a bunch of people into a hoax-- and then publicly (or as "publicly" as an NG
> can be) humiliate you. I can see how that would be something to consider.

>
> But what the heck is wrong with "Joe Tofu"? I rather like that handle. I'm a
> vegetarian, and well, it's easy to remember...and I thought it had a kind of
> friendly sound to it. I don't see you sniffing about "Clevenator" or
> "Emzilla". Maybe I should call myself "Joe Tozilla" when I post here.

Maybe I've become too paranoid from being part of this newsgroup too
long, but my first impression was that the obvious pseudonym "Joe Tofu"
sounded as though you were flaunting the fact that you were hiding your
real name. My apologies as this is completely the opposite of what you
intended. This was made worse by the fact that you have a Yahoo account.
The troublemakers like to use Yahoo and Hotmail because it's almost
impossible to trace the sender.

>
> Hey come to think of it... "Jim from Seattle"? It's just ordinary enough to
> seem authentic...but maybe just a little *too* ordinary. It's starting to
> seem a little fishy to me. Alright "Jim from Seattle", or whatever your
> *real* name is, what are you hiding?! I'll bet you don't even live in
> Seattle! You're probably ashamed of where you really live and want people to
> think you live in a really cool place. :-)
>

"Jim from Seattle" and "Clevenator" are well known regulars.

There's another reason some of us are suspicious. For years the Hong
Kong dubbing industry has been a source of mystery to the fans and genre
researchers. Very little information has ever come out and attempts to
research it have come up empty time and time again. The fact that one of
them suddenly appears out of the blue is almost too good to be true.

As I mentioned before, you almost have me convinced. I was suspicious at
first because some of your early posts contained a major error
concerning the who/when of one of the dub jobs. A later post about
something else corrected this. Based on the fact that you unknowingly
corrected the error without the discrepancy being brought to your
attention makes me believe you. I hope this makes sense.

Now to really convince me, let's see if you can answer any of these
questions:

What's your companies' name?
How long have they been in business?
How long have you worked for them?
Have you dubbed any Godzilla/Japanese sci fi films for them prior to
recent months?
Has your company dubbed any Godzilla/Japanese sci fi films prior to your
working for them?
Do you know who your client was for dubbing the recent films? Toho?
Tristar? Sony?

As someone who gives dubbing more respect and attention than many fans,
once you've got me fully convinced I promise to give you lots of
constructive feedback!:)

Sorry if I've been hard on you. I'm just anxious to get to the truth.

Brian C.

PS: If "Happy Enterprises" sounds suspicious, it's because it's the name
of a fictitous company from one of my favorite G-films.


joe...@yahoo.com

unread,
May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
to

In article <355F71...@erols.com>,
bcm...@erols.com wrote:

Brian said:
>
> I've been watching these posts for a while trying to figure out if
> you're for real or not as well. I'm almost convinced. Before you get too
> defensive, allow me to explain a few things about this newsgroup.:)
>
> joe...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
> > And frankly, I don't really care if you believe me or not. But I am
> > interested, though, in why you think I would be making this up. I could see
> > it if I was claiming to be someone famous, or perhaps some big shot at
> > TriStar or something.

Brian replied:


> Forgive us for being paranoid but we see a lot of stuff on this page
> that turns out to be hooey. A number of people post anonymously claiming

> this and that and stirring things up.<snip>

Yes, I've noticed quite a lot of adolescent crap here. I can understand your
paranoia. But its unfortunate.

Brian said:
>
> Just a word of advice: referring to these films as "cheesy" isn't PC
> around here. A lot of posters are a bit protective of what is largely a
> misunderstood genre. While few would call this stuff high art,
> derogatory adjectives about the films in general (even when applied with
> affection) tend to ruffle feathers.:)
>

Thank you for the advice. I did mean the "cheesy" term affectionately, and I
did not mean to offend. However, it seems reasonable to be able say G films
are cheesy. It's my opinion. And I'm not going to let the immaturity of
others keep me from speaking my mind. If I said something like "all G fans
are a bunch of gravy-sucking pigs," that might be different. That would be
rude, and it would be a (more or less) personal attack. I see a lot of that
kind of attack here. It's legal, but it's not nice, and it's not
constructive...and it's not interesting.

What might be interesting, on the other hand, is a discussion on what cheesy
means, and whether or not G films fit the definition.

Brian again:

> Maybe I've become too paranoid from being part of this newsgroup too
> long, but my first impression was that the obvious pseudonym "Joe Tofu"
> sounded as though you were flaunting the fact that you were hiding your
> real name. My apologies as this is completely the opposite of what you

> intended.<snip>

Given the amount of flaming and other childishness on this NG, can any one
blame me for wanting to protect my identity.

Joe Tofu orignally said:

> > Hey come to think of it... "Jim from Seattle"? It's just ordinary enough to
> > seem authentic...but maybe just a little *too* ordinary. It's starting to
> > seem a little fishy to me. Alright "Jim from Seattle", or whatever your
> > *real* name is, what are you hiding?! I'll bet you don't even live in
> > Seattle! You're probably ashamed of where you really live and want people >> to
> > think you live in a really cool place. :-)
> >

And now Joe Tofu comments:

That whole routine was meant as a joke. I even put an emoticon on it. I was
just joshing. If anyone thinks I was serious...you need to stop hanging out
here. You really are getting paranoid! :-) (Please note the inclusion of a
smiley-face emoticon at the end of *this* statement.)

Brian said:
> There's another reason some of us are suspicious. For years the Hong
> Kong dubbing industry has been a source of mystery to the fans and genre
> researchers. Very little information has ever come out and attempts to
> research it have come up empty time and time again. The fact that one of
> them suddenly appears out of the blue is almost too good to be true.

Yes, that's what I hear. I have some thoughts on why this is. See below.


Brian said:
<snip>


> Now to really convince me, let's see if you can answer any of these
> questions:
>

> What's your company's name?

It's not really a company. It's a British guy and his Chinese wife.

> How long have they been in business?

I'm not sure. Decades.

> How long have you worked for them?

I started in Oct. of 1995.

> Have you dubbed any Godzilla/Japanese sci fi films for them prior to
> recent months?

The only ones *I* have dubbed are the four we did last fall, and the repairs
to one a couple of weeks ago.

Way back in 1996 I think it was, we did a Japanese kiddie sci-fi film about a
little girl and her pet dinosaur (?)--- it had a weird, convoluted Christmas
theme to it. I don't recall its title.

> Has your company dubbed any Godzilla/Japanese sci fi films prior to your
> working for them?

I am told that they have been doing them for many years.

> Do you know who your client was for dubbing the recent films? Toho?
> Tristar? Sony?

I have no idea. That sort of information is closely guarded. It gets kind of
silly sometimes, in my opinion. But it seems like every one in Hong Kong is
convinced that other people are trying to steal their clients. I guess it's
true to some extent, but I think it results in a paranoia that's a bit out of
proportion. I've never contracted any dubbing work myself, though. My opinion
might change once I had a couple of clients stolen away.

But that's probably a big reason why there is so little info available about
Hong Kong dubbing. No one wants to talk about his clients, and no one wants
to even tell who the dubbing actors are for fear of having them poached.


Brian said:
> Sorry if I've been hard on you. I'm just anxious to get to the truth.
>

No offense taken at all...from you or anyone else. Thanks for taking the time
to write.

--J.Tofu

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