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From So Not a Cafe to So Merton...

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myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 24, 2010, 5:53:57 PM2/24/10
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It could be merely an insignificant coincidence. Not even Kubrick
wordplay. However...

Just before our hero leaves Domino's apartment on his way to the cafe,
he gets a call from his wife, and there is a copy of "Introducing
Sociology" prominently displayed, as he is talking to her. Surely
Robert Merton has a chapter of his own in this book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_K._Merton

Merton's theory on deviance stems from his 1938 analysis of the
relationship between culture, structure and anomie. Merton defines
culture as an "organized set of normative values governing behavior
which is common to members of a designated society or group." Social
structures are the "organized set of social relationships in which
members of the society or group are variously implicated." [8]
Anomie, state of normlessness, then occurs when there is "an acute
disjunction between the cultural norms and goals and the socially
structured capacities of members of the group to act in accord with
them." [8] In his theory, Merton links anomie with deviance and
argues that the discontinuity between culture and structure have the
dysfunctional consequence of leading to deviance within society [9].

The term anomie, derived from Émile Durkheim, for Merton means: a
discontinuity between cultural goals and the legitimate means
available for reaching them.[10] Applied to the United States he sees
the American dream as an emphasis on the goal of monetary success but
without the corresponding emphasis on the legitimate avenues to march
toward this goal. In other words, Merton believes that all subscribe
to the American Dream, but the ways in which people go about obtaining
the Dream are not the same because not everyone has the same
opportunities and advantages as the next person. This leads to a
considerable amount of (the Parsonian term of) deviance. This theory
is commonly used in the study of criminology (specifically the strain
theory).


The following article refers on the book, but without making the
Merton connection.

http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0096.html

Interesting, though not unrealistic, that a "hooker" would have
textbooks in her library--not to mention "Shadows on the Mirror."

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 25, 2010, 3:40:53 AM2/25/10
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On Feb 24, 2:53 pm, myriadsmallcreature


Merton is frequently mentioned in connection to Club of Rome and
Bilderberg
Maybe he was at the ceremony, maybe he is Red Cloak, maybe that is
SK's secret message there.:)

dc

.

myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 25, 2010, 10:51:22 PM2/25/10
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I find no such connections anywhere online. Links?

There is another Robert Merton, an economist. The son...

an economist, he was connected with a hedge-fund scandal that some
call a financial scam, in the news during the filming of the movie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_C._Merton

"Together with Myron Scholes, Merton was among the board of directors
of Long-Term Capital Management (LTCM), a hedge fund that failed
spectacularly in 1998 after losing $4.6 billion in less than four
months.[2] The Federal Reserve was so concerned about the potential
impact of LTCM's failure on the financial system that it arranged for
a group of 19 banks and other firms to provide sufficient liquidity
for the banking system to survive. Although these investors were
eventually paid off, the reputation of Merton and Scholes were
tarnished."

So, that would put the father, born in the lower middle class, in the
position defining the relationship of the elite to the rest of
society, and the son in the position of perhaps being one of those
elite. Just the kind of irony that Kubrick would appreciate, allowing
the economy of commenting on both sides at once.

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 1:41:11 AM2/26/10
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On Feb 25, 7:51 pm, myriadsmallcreature
> the economy of commenting on both sides at once.- Hide quoted text -
>

Yes i know Robert K and Robert C are father son.

Robert K wrote a book with Umberto Ecco years back. Ecco wrote a
Forward for him. And book dedications Who of course wrote name of the
rose and those other secret society books

Before I realized what a crazy scam the Club of Rome and the
malthusian psychosis was, I was reading all that and Merton books were
cited alot. i don't remember the details. The whole idea of a "self-
fulfilling prophecy" is like the parnoid catastrophic expectation.
that worrying about the end of the world is a self fulfilling prophecy
and the principle can be used if you believe.

Robert C is all about globalization.


I don't have time atm to look further, but interesting .

Merton was a very influential person very much a darling of a certain
segment of social engineers,


dc


kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 1:47:31 AM2/26/10
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On Feb 25, 7:51 pm, myriadsmallcreature
<myriadsmallcreat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> the economy of commenting on both sides at once.- Hide quoted text -


Merton is listed in Club of Madrid also, another social engineering
org.


dc

myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 26, 2010, 3:32:09 PM2/26/10
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You seem intent on implicating one or both of the Mertons in nefarious
activity. Too strongly stated?

Questions...

Do you believe that social engineering of any kind is necessary today?

Do you believe that all members of the Club of Rome subscribe to the
same methods of social engineering?

Might Merton Sr. have been involved in the abovementioned groups
BECAUSE of a difference of philosophy in the implementation of social
engineering methods?

Could those who use Merton's terms and data actually use his name to
advance social engineering agendas which differ from his own?

Think Nietzsche here...

Is it possible that Sr. and Jr. are radically different in their
philosophies and their attitudes?

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 4:04:35 PM2/26/10
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On Feb 26, 12:32 pm, myriadsmallcreature

Yes too strongly stated, through the imagined EWS filter, but I
watched some youtube videos with Robert C and Paul Samuelson were
talking to refresh my memory as to where he was at, and notice how
often he used the word "global"

I'm not into globalization at all. I used to think that way years
ago, then realized that is idiotic, idealistic and naive.

Robert K had some brilliant ideas and was very central to Socialogy
and Social Engineering theory. Is that nefarious?
It is if they are manipulating people IMO. Social engineering to me
is repugnant and unnecessary and by it's very nature includes the
"Elite"

Last night I watched the new Richard Kelly film "THE BOX" It had bad
reviews so I expected to be disappointed, but it was a pretty trippy
film. Not to give anything away to those who havent seen it,
conspiracy is involved and a diabolical social engineering going on.


> Questions...
>
> Do you believe that social engineering of any kind is necessary today?

Only laws arrived at through correct Constitutional process not
progressivism or ideology.

> Do you believe that all members of the Club of Rome subscribe to the
> same methods of social engineering?


No, but I think there is a general atttitude which at one time I
myself had.

>
> Might Merton Sr. have been involved in the abovementioned groups
> BECAUSE of a difference of philosophy in the implementation of social
> engineering methods?

I just know that even brilliant people can go through long periods of
naivite and blind spots in their thinking--best example of that I use
is HG Wells.


> Could those who use Merton's terms and data actually use his name to
> advance social engineering agendas which differ from his own?

Yes. Very possibly. That would be worth researching further--if for
no other reason then to interpret Kubrick and what messges really are
being imparted. Also it would be very funny to uncover more meaning
like that from EWS, beyond just a book that happened to be on the set
and had no special meaning---fat chance with Kubrick.


> Think Nietzsche here...
>
> Is it possible that Sr. and Jr. are radically different in their

> philosophies and their attitudes?- Hide quoted text -
>

I don't get that impression but I do get the impression that he had
his wealth handed to him on a silver platter. He doesn't strike me as
being the giant brain his dad was.

Until you mentioned it i didn;t think too much about it, taking it
more as a commonly read book that would be owned by a college
student. Perhaps the only meaning was SK making it clear she had been
or was a College Student with a baby---there is that baby carriage
outside the door.

dc

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 4:08:01 PM2/26/10
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> dc- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Correction: stroller not carriage

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 4:28:07 PM2/26/10
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Could be Sally's stroller.

Unrelated I'm sure but there is also that chance that Domino told
Sally to say she had AIDS out of guilt knowing he was married-----
suggesting she was more then just a cheap hooker ---maybe hooking to
take care of her baby---that would also help explain the question as
to why Sally seemed to assume they had had sex. Would Domino lie to
Sally that she had sex with him?

Perhaps there's some sociology at work there too.


dc

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 4:39:20 PM2/26/10
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So a mother, trying to follow society's goals but there is a
disconnect with her goal and ability to reach it, causing her to hook
after having a baby. That would also mean she wasn't the kind to have
an abortion, implying high standards. Bill's visit knocked her into
reality and she felt guilty, decided to quit hooking but when he
returned she hid telling Sally to "tell him I have aids!"


dc

Message has been deleted

myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 26, 2010, 5:18:35 PM2/26/10
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Thanks for responding so thoughtfully. Refreshing.

Yes, fat chance that Kubrick would pass up the opportunity to enrich
the landscape.

Have you read "Shadows on the Mirror"? I think it also adds a lot.

Professional woman/"pro"/elite/murder/class/anomie/deviance etc...

Author Frances Fyfield's bio is interesting also.

If Kubrick is implicating the Mertons as sympathetic to the elite,
whoever they are, it adds to the poignancy, don't you think, given
Merton Sr. characterization of the elite, and the American Dream.

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 5:50:34 PM2/26/10
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On Feb 26, 2:18 pm, myriadsmallcreature

<myriadsmallcreat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks for responding so thoughtfully. Refreshing.
>
> Yes, fat chance that Kubrick would pass up the opportunity to enrich
> the landscape.
>
> Have you read "Shadows on the Mirror"? I think it also adds a lot.
>

No I haven't read it. Looks interesting. I'll check it out and read
her bio.


> Professional woman/"pro"/elite/murder/class/anomie/deviance etc...
>
> Author Frances Fyfield's bio is interesting also.
>
> If Kubrick is implicating the Mertons as sympathetic to the elite,
> whoever they are, it adds to the poignancy, don't you think, given
> Merton Sr. characterization of the elite, and the American Dream.


I'll have to think about that ("the Poignancy) a while.

The elite have this ability to co-opt others. Wine and Dine them,
romance them and even put them on pedestals. I'd be interested to
find out more to see if there is any real reason to think he became
one of the elite. Sometimes brilliant minds have blind spots when
manipulated.

Be funny if Merton became a leader and not just a theoretician used by
a secret cabal.


.
dc

myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 26, 2010, 6:05:35 PM2/26/10
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> The elite have this ability to co-opt others.  Wine and Dine them,
> romance them and even put them on pedestals.  I'd be interested to
> find out more to see if there is any real reason to think he became
> one of the elite.  Sometimes brilliant minds have blind spots when
> manipulated.
>
> Be funny if Merton became a leader and not just a theoretician used by
> a secret cabal.
>
> .
> dc

Maybe. Wining and dining is more appropriate for celebrities. I think
a more persuasive approach for intellectuals is the intellectual
approach.

The scenario goes something like this...

Show them what is just beyond the umbra of their profession.

Political, military, biochemical, psychosocial 'truths' of which they
may not be aware.

The way the Clintons and Obama were sold on the program?

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 6:15:23 PM2/26/10
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On Feb 26, 2:18 pm, myriadsmallcreature
<myriadsmallcreat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Looking over her books and quick bio she looks interesting.

I guess that is the first book of a big series. i could get into that
if it's good.


One thing about EWS I like to ber able to look at it with the
conspiratorial POV as if we have to start with the premise that EWS is
a message about a REAL:life conspiracy Kubrick was privy too and he is
acting as a whistleblower, rather then it just being him playing with
conspiracy theory for fun and creative mindgames. I find the most
entertainment value in that POV.

If the above premise is true then Sk would somewhere plant clues as to
the identity of these elite.
I never considered the Merton connection that way.

Who is Red Cloak and who is Sandor? in the conspiracy


My Sandor theory
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9226/sandorsoroszy1.jpg


dc

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 6:26:30 PM2/26/10
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On Feb 26, 3:05 pm, myriadsmallcreature

yes,
Wine and Dine=Flumux them and dazzle

>
> The way the Clintons and Obama were sold on the program?


And then perhaps the fear of what would happen were they to blab.:)

Some Hillary expression during the campaign had a dear in the
headlights look on it and then suddenly she basically gave up
campaign, even though she was winning with the popular vote. the
mysterious day trip she and Obama made lving bus loads of journalists
waiting with PR spokesmen on an unscheduled meeting somewhere.

How so many keep getting these mild heart attacks or sudden
hospitalizations .......... from Svensmark the solar scientist AGW
denier, (youtube search svensmark heart attack) whose pacemaker
apparently freaked out in Copenhagen, to Clinton and Limbaugh, Glenn
Beck, Dole and Cheney.

:) IN EWS mode.


dc

myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 26, 2010, 7:05:23 PM2/26/10
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Apropos of nothing in particular...

Have you read 'Eyes Wide Open'? Eye opening.

In particular, there is an exchange between the author and Kubrick
about 'two kinds of Jews'.

re: Domino... She asks Dollar Bill for the time as part of sizing him
up. To see what kind of watch he had to go with his suit. "Want to
come inside with me." I love that.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, if she were a typical hooker she would
not have turned down his money. That she did distances her from the
stereotype.

In my opinion, she is not a pro, but more like the protagonist in
'Shadows on the Mirror'-- or in the tradition of the Oscar-laden
hookers with a golden heart... rather than the sexually abused and
neglected painted ladies who typically walk the streets.

In my opinion, she did not have HIV. In keeping with the tone of the
book, because he had no need of Domino's services, Sally lied on her
behalf so he would go home to his family.

In a way, Domino is like many of Kubrick's heroines, and in this case,
she is at the moral center of the story. With the singer serenading
soldiers in the enemy tongue. The defiled daughter marrying the
innocent young man who needs her. The Vietnamese sniper fighting for
freedom. The slave girl winning the heart of a gladiator.

Bill is another story.

:)

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 9:37:06 PM2/26/10
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On Feb 26, 4:05 pm, myriadsmallcreature

There is also the comedic heroine in the novel Candy by Terry
Southern. It has an aspect of self-sacrifice and innocense when Candy
gives herself to others.


> In my opinion, she did not have HIV. In keeping with the tone of the
> book, because he had no need of Domino's services, Sally lied on her
> behalf so he would go home to his family.
>

agreed

> In a way, Domino is like many of Kubrick's heroines, and in this case,
> she is at the moral center of the story. With the singer serenading
> soldiers in the enemy tongue. The defiled daughter marrying the
> innocent young man who needs her. The Vietnamese sniper fighting for
> freedom. The slave girl winning the heart of a gladiator.
>
> Bill is another story.
>

> :)-

Some of Bill may have been Tom Cruise and I wonder what part of Bill
was really SK himself.


dc


kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 9:46:00 PM2/26/10
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> dc-

Yes I read Eyes Wide Open, but it hit my circular file after the last
page


dc

myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 26, 2010, 10:27:34 PM2/26/10
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The door is opened for him.

He passes the first test in the bathroom at the Ziegler's.

The second test is at the Nathanson's. Result inconclusive. Did you
notice the clumsy greeting between Marion and her fiance? An arranged
marriage...


But Bill is Bill to the extent that he puts his family in peril
repeatedly, despite being warned, with his indiscretions.

He consents to indiscriminate sex with a woman who may, as far he
knows, have HIV.

He takes a taxi to Somerton. High comedy.

He refuses to take his clothes off at an orgy!

He goes to Nightingale's hotel.

He returns to Somerton and stands expectantly at the gate.

He goes to the hospital to see 'Amanda'.

Did I miss anything?

He drinks beer.

Not exactly a viable candidate.

:)

The door is closed behind him. On his way out.


Have you ever noticed the parallels between EWS and 'The Ninth Gate'?

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 10:58:40 PM2/26/10
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On Feb 26, 7:27 pm, myriadsmallcreature

That's funny:)


Submit to the test.

Poor Bill My dad used to say "he'd starve to death with a loaf of
bread under his arm" I think that applies to Bill----i can relate to
that naive state living in Sonambulence and striving for normalness
even when theoretically one has it all figured out.


> Have you ever noticed the parallels between EWS and 'The Ninth Gate'?

Yes in a general sense and no in the specific.

Depp's character is smarter and an action character, not like dull
Bill. Corso was more of a serious Indiana Jones type with only
begrudged ethics or morals.

The woman of course -----But

What parallels do you see?


I am kicking around the idea of going to see Ghost Writer tomorrow
night.
dc

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 11:01:38 PM2/26/10
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Polanski attracted his disasters. Or should I say "summoned."

dc

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 11:07:42 PM2/26/10
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So, not recognizing the Bardos................one fails. Selling ones
soul and failing to beat the devil one fails.

This AMK thread I was fooling around with EWS and the Tibetan Book of
the dead and color

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.movies.kubrick/browse_thread/thread/c83ad0c1d23b859f/64f0b3c191e18b92?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=tibetan+book+of+the+dead#64f0b3c191e18b92

dc


myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 26, 2010, 11:21:28 PM2/26/10
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2005/oct/02/features.review

'I look at my own childhood in a different way now. I look at it
through the prism of my children and I imagine how my parents
perceived the problems that occurred at the time, which I didn't know
before. My life is the best now it ever was. I had a very happy period
in London too, but that's the past.'

What's he going to do next? 'I wish I knew,' he says. 'Or do I really?
I used to talk on the phone to Stanley Kubrick. These were
conversations which would last sometimes for a long, long time. I
liked him very much. He was brilliant and bright and it was always so
exciting to talk to him because he knew so much about everything. And
he said, 'Don't you hate that interim period when you don't know what
you are going to do next? Why is it from film to film more difficult
to decide what you want to do?'

'And I remember I said 'yes, yes, yes' but I didn't know what he was
talking about. Because in those times it was so easy for me to choose
my next film. But now I know what he meant. One is much more exigeant
- what is this? Demanding? Because you know it takes so much of your
time and energy. It's like taking a dive. You hesitate before you
jump.'

myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 26, 2010, 11:24:43 PM2/26/10
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Previous quote is Polanski on Kubrick.

Odd as it may seem I think that EWS and 'The Ninth Gate' are
deliberate extensions of one another, were made with each other in
mind...

part of a Millennial revelation trilogy...

:)

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 11:53:25 PM2/26/10
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On Feb 26, 8:21 pm, myriadsmallcreature


Perhaps Polanski never passed the test--is still taking the test.

I wrote this once:

"I was the young long-haired, buddhist holy. hippie kid hitchhiking
(car was broken) up Benedict Canyon (where my girl friend lived),
getting picked up by an incredible blond in a black Mercedes,
wearing
only a lace white sheer top and High Heels. Stoned out of her mind.
wanting me to come up to her new house. Why oh why was I already in
love? How in the world did I turn that down? Guess I was protected.
"

"I don't know how well I could stand up under torture"

I passed the test or maybe just evaded it for a while.


dc


kelpzoidzl

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Feb 26, 2010, 11:57:20 PM2/26/10
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On Feb 26, 8:24 pm, myriadsmallcreature


hmmm, well I love both films although I think Polanski and Frank
Langella blew the ending--such a poorly executed ceremony---then the
image of the girl saved it somewhat.

Whats the third film in that trilogy?

dc

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 27, 2010, 12:01:53 AM2/27/10
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I find it funny how Kubricks work is now all interpreted from so many
conspiratorial angles. SK purists used to poo poo the overly
conspiratorial --but with kubrick you have to think of everything.


dc


myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 27, 2010, 12:03:46 AM2/27/10
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Did you read 'The Club Dumas'?

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 27, 2010, 12:24:00 AM2/27/10
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On Feb 26, 9:03 pm, myriadsmallcreature

No but i've wanted to, just never got around to it, I've heard its a
good one.


dc

myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 27, 2010, 12:38:21 AM2/27/10
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There is much more to 'The Ninth Gate' that can only be understood by
reading the book.

While that is true of many adaptations it is central to 'The Ninth
Gate'.

In particular, at 86:33, the scene in the library, Corso is staring at
a picture--the wrong picture. Why is that?

As it turns out, NO ONE in the world (on the Internet anyway) has made
mention of this--even as a continuity error.

Must have been disheartening to Roman and his associates to draw so
little scrutiny at the most important moment in the film.

Although I suggest that there is a subculture quietly aware of the
meaning of that scene.

Again 86:33 in the library... nothing is happening, right? Just enough
time to go to the loo before the music starts up again.

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 27, 2010, 12:59:21 AM2/27/10
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On Feb 26, 9:38 pm, myriadsmallcreature
> time to go to the loo before the music starts up again.- Hide quoted text -
>


I'll check that out right now see if I had noticed anything previously

dc

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 27, 2010, 2:15:57 AM2/27/10
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this is what i see at 86:33
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7161/ninthgate8633.jpg

Only thing I see is the reflection in his glasses. Am I missing
something? or wrong frame?

He's just looked at the lucifer signed kessler white chessboard and
prior to that the knight on the horse and prior to that the postcard
photo.

After my 86:33 he uses the magnifier on the Balkan xerox Monk on his
knees about to be beheaded

So elucidate

dc

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7161/ninthgate8633.jpg

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 27, 2010, 2:21:52 AM2/27/10
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> this is what i see at 86:33http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7161/ninthgate8633.jpg

>
>  Only thing I see is the reflection in his glasses.  Am I missing
> something? or wrong frame?
>
> He's just looked at the lucifer signed kessler white chessboard and
> prior to that the knight on the horse and prior to that the   postcard
> photo.
>
> After my 86:33  he uses the magnifier on the Balkan xerox Monk on his
> knees about to be beheaded
>
> So elucidate
>
> dc
>
> http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7161/ninthgate8633.jpg- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Just before he is hit on the head he falls into the Kesseler photo of
the monk

dc

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 27, 2010, 2:35:37 AM2/27/10
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>
> Just before he is hit on the head he falls into the Kesseler photo of
> the monk
>
> dc-

correction: after he is hit on head he falls...etc


myriadsmallcreature

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Feb 27, 2010, 2:45:48 AM2/27/10
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> >http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7161/ninthgate8633.jpg-Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Just before he is hit on the head he falls into the Kesseler photo of
> the monk
>
> dc

But he's looking at the wrong picture. That much is discernible by
attending only to the movie.

Why is he looking at that engraving? Who is the executioner?

Those questions can only be entertained intelligently only by reading
the book.

It's unfair really to expect the audience to reach that second level
of understanding.

So Polanski is making a movie on at least three levels (and more). The
first level is a horror/adventure movie. On this level, it is dreadful
in my opinion. Little effort was expended in that effort. The next
level is a mystery of sorts, demanding closer attention by the
audience. The audience has not been interested in playing. The third
level is revelation of several kinds, some of which can be gleaned
from the movie itself, some demands more. But I'm being redundant.

kelpzoidzl

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Feb 27, 2010, 3:41:10 AM2/27/10
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On Feb 26, 11:45 pm, myriadsmallcreature
> > >http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7161/ninthgate8633.jpg-Hidequoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Just before he is hit on the head he falls into the Kesseler photo of
> > the monk
>
> > dc
>
> But he's looking at the wrong picture. That much is discernible by
> attending only to the movie.
>
> Why is he looking at that engraving? Who is the executioner?
>
> Those questions can only be entertained intelligently only by reading
> the book.
>
> It's unfair really to expect the audience to reach that second level
> of understanding.
>
> So Polanski is making a movie on at least three levels (and more). The
> first level is a horror/adventure movie. On this level, it is dreadful
> in my opinion. Little effort was expended in that effort. The next
> level is a mystery of sorts, demanding closer attention by the
> audience. The audience has not been interested in playing. The third
> level is revelation of several kinds, some of which can be gleaned
> from the movie itself, some demands more. But I'm being redundant

Well ya got me watching the whole thing again. I hope the book is at
Barnes and Moble or Borders. I'll pick it up tomorrow.
Is that frame i linked the same frame you are talking about?

So who is the executioner? we don't see the signatures on the
executioner prints.

Which picture is the forgery?


I can wait to read it and see what I think.

dc

myriadsmallcreature

unread,
Feb 27, 2010, 12:50:47 PM2/27/10
to
> Is that frame i linked the same frame you are talking about?
>

Roughly. The scene lasts about a minute or so.


> So who is the executioner? we don't see the signatures on the
> executioner prints.

The answer is in the book. The real question is why?


> Which picture is the forgery?

That's a whole other thing. The girl is leading him, obviously. But
she isn't exactly telling him the truth about the engraving either.

myriadsmallcreature

unread,
Feb 27, 2010, 2:43:11 PM2/27/10
to
You might try the director's commentary.


Above, you said...

"One thing about EWS I like to be able to look at it with the


conspiratorial POV as if we have to start with the premise that EWS is
a message about a REAL:life conspiracy Kubrick was privy too and he is
acting as a whistleblower, rather then it just being him playing with
conspiracy theory for fun and creative mindgames. I find the most
entertainment value in that POV."

My original take on the possible Merton connection was that it showed
Kubrick's opinion (unfavorable) of the orgy. Certainly, deviance and
anomie characterize the action and the participants. I'm not
necessarily so interested in the real-life models for the characters,
as others similar would likely arise to fill any void, in their
absence. If you follow my meaning.

However, Kubrick does leave what may be interpreted as a clue in the
New York Post article. 'The Club Dumas' makes a more thorough catalog
of likely suspects. IMO.

Which is not to say the two groups are necessarily the same. Or have
the same agenda. Or that either of the two have anything to do with
Polanski.

Just saying.

:)

CM

unread,
Mar 11, 2010, 3:42:35 PM3/11/10
to

>
> Have you read 'Eyes Wide Open'? Eye opening.
>
> In particular, there is an exchange between the author and Kubrick
> about 'two kinds of Jews'.

Could you elaborate on this discussion? The book isn't available at
any library in my area :( Did it have to do with Kubrick's research
on Hilberg's Destruction of the European Jews? It's intriguing on
Kubrick's contemplations on Jewish issues, since it was so subtly
exercised in his movies.

kelpzoidzl

unread,
Mar 11, 2010, 4:52:04 PM3/11/10
to

Those that escaped and those that were more sheepish, that thought
everything would fine is my interpretation. Much like today-saome
would say in reverse,

So maybe an allusion to Polanski as an escapee as an indication of xyz
conspiracy, that theory would have an obvious problem with denier
theories.

One can come up with numerous possiblities about Polanski and his
mysteries having nothing to do with conspiracy xyz.


dc


myriadsmallcreature

unread,
Mar 11, 2010, 5:56:58 PM3/11/10
to
Just a note: The Kubrick family publicly denounced the publication of
'Eyes Wide Open', claiming that it was irresponsible and/or
inaccurate. Perhaps Katharina will deign to interject here.

My hazy recollection is that it came up in conversation between
Stanley and the author in regards to Doctor Bill walking around with
so much cash in the middle of the night. My memory, if I remember
correctly, is not what it used to be, if it ever was. There was not
much more discussed or divulged about two kinds of Jewishness than
that. For instance, Jewish by blood versus conversion to Judaism did
not explicitly enter the conversation. I found it remarkable that he/
they would make any such distinction. I believe it was Stanley who
made the remark.

Katharina?

If it is of interest to you, CM, I could reorder the book through my
local library and relate precisely what was said. Let me know.

kelpzoidzl

unread,
Mar 11, 2010, 7:49:24 PM3/11/10
to
On Mar 11, 2:56 pm, myriadsmallcreature

Well, well well., Lord Bullingdon! It's about time. actually your
style gave you away...as welll as your Pink Floyd passion.

Last time you were here I was one of very few who thought you had the
right to express your opinions and found you more entertaining then
most. But I never will back up people getting nasty or insulting to
Kubrick family as you had earlier then that.

dc

----------------------------------------------------------

"I am a 22 year-old Brazilian. I am single. I live in Sao Paulo,
in the southeast region of the country. I'm a mechanical
engineer, and I'm making an MBA on Business Administration at
USP (Federal University of Sao Paulo). I have one brother.

I like classical music (specially Bach, Beethoven and
Schubert), Jazz and progressive rock****** (specially Pink
Floyd).******* I
love cinema, specially the films from Kubrick, Ingmar Bergman,
Akira Kurosawa and Luchino Visconti. I like travelling, and I
have visited Europe (England, France, Czeck Republic, Italy,
Switzerland, Spain and Germany) and United States. I'm 1.76 m
high, and weight 82 kg.


I use hotmail because it was the first one I found. I also have
another mail address, but I don't use it anymore.


Did I answer your question?


L.B. "

kelpzoidzl

unread,
Mar 11, 2010, 8:05:50 PM3/11/10
to
I would love to see---for entertainment purposes----you and Padraig
(Harry Bailey,) ( Gnome) etc. having a nice long discussion.

You might attract to old crew back to amk for al ittle more of the in
and out.

dc

myriadsmallcreature

unread,
Mar 11, 2010, 9:18:35 PM3/11/10
to

Sorry to disappoint, but I've kept the same name throughout my
Internet career from 2004 forward. Wrong continent, age, education,
interests, height and weight, etc. Maybe we're twins.

:)

Close to 7 billion of us standing toe to toe on this island, we're
bound to resemble one another. There are reasons especially why your
LB and I might both share an interest in the Floyd and Kubrick, just
as there is a reason why David Gilmour would name one of his songs
'Childhood's End' and put Clarke's prose into his songs.

I have nothing against the Kubrick family. Exchanged a few emails with
Katharina through her studio email account. She was friendlier than I
had a right to expect. But not informative regarding the subject
matter at hand. Which was to be expected.

Ultimately, as the publius says it's more important to attend the
words, not who says them. Though I understand why you might read my
profile, check my old posts: to get an idea who you're dealing with.
Indeed, that's why I keep the same email account for all my posts. For
the sake of continuity.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I won't tip my hand about what I believe
is happening. First of all, you wouldn't believe me. Secondly, it
would deny you the pure joy of self-discovery.

But it doesn't matter. I have discovered through repetition that those
who believe in TPTB or the xyz conspiracy or the Illuminati--or
whatever--have too much invested in their research to give up their
hard-won beliefs easily. Not that I'm referring to you necessarily. I
can't say. Just that anything more than a few words here and there
soon reach the point of diminishing returns.

I do want to say this: Knowledge is disciplinary, wisdom
interdisciplinary. Forums often suffer just because of their subject
matter and because of it end up rehashing the same material over and
over. Kubrick was who he was because his mind wandered everywhere, and
saw connections everywhere. We do well to follow that lead. Off topic
with a purpose. It has to do with the left and the right. The red and
the blue. Don't you want to go where the rainbow ends?

Have you seen the new release of Jung's 'The Red Book? In this, his
life's magnum opus, he is obsessed with one symbol. What is it?

:)

kelpzoidzl

unread,
Mar 11, 2010, 9:53:28 PM3/11/10
to
On Mar 11, 6:18 pm, myriadsmallcreature

<myriadsmallcreat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 11, 7:05 pm, kelpzoidzl <kelpzoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I would love to see---for entertainment  purposes----you and Padraig
> > (Harry Bailey,) ( Gnome) etc.  having a nice long discussion.
>
> > You might attract to old crew back to amk for al ittle more of the in
> > and out.
>
> > dc
>
> Sorry to disappoint, but I've kept the same name throughout my
> Internet career from 2004 forward. Wrong continent, age, education,
> interests, height and weight, etc. Maybe we're twins.
>
> :)

Oh well. Do an archive search for Lord Bullingdon get some laughs.

Creeping cryptography, always culminating in a bitter explosion


>
> Close to 7 billion of us standing toe to toe on this island, we're
> bound to resemble one another. There are reasons especially why your
> LB and I might both share an interest in the Floyd and Kubrick, just
> as there is a reason why David Gilmour would name one of his songs
> 'Childhood's End' and put Clarke's prose into his songs.


Plausible., I don't recall LB denying he was he, on various
appearances.
Then you must remember LB?

>
> I have nothing against the Kubrick family. Exchanged a few emails with
> Katharina through her studio email account. She was friendlier than I
> had a right to expect. But not informative regarding the subject
> matter at hand. Which was to be expected.

Sorry then


> Ultimately, as the publius says it's more important to attend the
> words, not who says them. Though I understand why you might read my
> profile, check my old posts: to get an idea who you're dealing with.
> Indeed, that's why I keep the same email account for all my posts. For
> the sake of continuity.
>

> Fortunately or unfortunately, I won't tip my hand about what I believe
> is happening. First of all, you wouldn't believe me. Secondly, it
> would deny you the pure joy of self-discovery

I've never been big on spoilers, but frankly nothing surprises me
anymore,

Still the creeping-crypto-socratic writing style is old to me. I'm
all for forthrightness.

After all it is just opinion neh?


> But it doesn't matter. I have discovered through repetition that those
> who believe in TPTB or the xyz conspiracy or the Illuminati--or
> whatever--have too much invested in their research to give up their
> hard-won beliefs easily. Not that I'm referring to you necessarily. I
> can't say. Just that anything more than a few words here and there
> soon reach the point of diminishing returns.

I think you took some cynicism of mine as acceptance or denial when in
reality it was an attempt at dry humor.
Like global warming "science" nothing is settled.

if reading those books you recommended should cause me to discover
your theory then feel free to hold back the spoilers, but thats not
important. Feel free to expound in crupto if you like but srsly just
say what you mean. If it's foul i'll tell you.


> I do want to say this: Knowledge is disciplinary, wisdom
> interdisciplinary. Forums often suffer just because of their subject
> matter and because of it end up rehashing the same material over and
> over. Kubrick was who he was because his mind wandered everywhere, and
> saw connections everywhere. We do well to follow that lead. Off topic
> with a purpose. It has to do with the left and the right. The red and
> the blue. Don't you want to go where the rainbow ends?
>
> Have you seen the new release of Jung's 'The Red Book? In this, his
> life's magnum opus, he is obsessed with one symbol. What is it?
>
> :)

I've only seen the pdf about it. Lots of Old imagery a red cross Tree
of life and snake scenes....do you have the book? What is it?

Without googling it, probably his own dick in one hand and a DH
Lawrence book in the other. (my cynicism again)

dc


kelpzoidzl

unread,
Mar 11, 2010, 10:08:02 PM3/11/10
to
On Mar 11, 6:18 pm, myriadsmallcreature
<myriadsmallcreat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I do want to say this: Knowledge is disciplinary, wisdom
> interdisciplinary.

to me, real wisdom comes entirely from practice and is experiential.

Earthly secrets and intrigue is entertainment but few things offer
much surprise.


Forums often suffer just because of their subject
> matter and because of it end up rehashing the same material over and
> over. Kubrick was who he was because his mind wandered everywhere, and
> saw connections everywhere. We do well to follow that lead. Off topic
> with a purpose. It has to do with the left and the right. The red and
> the blue. Don't you want to go where the rainbow ends?
>

> :)


Since the rainbow never has a true beginning and end it has to be
understood in context.


dc

myriadsmallcreature

unread,
Mar 11, 2010, 10:24:27 PM3/11/10
to

The two ends of the rainbow remain to be seen.

If you have nothing else, you'll always have your cynicism.

Relatively speaking, the multiverse is infinite, the mind is finite.
Overwhelmed by sensory data, the mind/brain compensates by reducing
the stream into patterns and models. Models communicated from others
give wisdom that cannot be got from experience alone. That is the
difference between the left and the right.

The red and the blue are the extreme limits of the range of visual
sensory perception. Or are they? Don't you want to go where the
rainbow ends?

Have you seen 'Sliding Doors', a little throwaway by Pollack?

Message has been deleted

kelpzoidzl

unread,
Mar 11, 2010, 10:39:59 PM3/11/10
to
On Mar 11, 7:24 pm, myriadsmallcreature


Yes, I've seen it.To me it was Cute.

"Experience" in my meaning is not only daily life experience. I've
been a buddhist practitioner for 45 years. All inclusive experiences
I had back in 1967-68 showed me much more then lifetimes of regular
practice or thoughts. The theory or mental machinations behind it
really means nothing in the big picture.

dc