Use of Hitchcock films in 12 monkeys
FullScreen
What did people think of the use of clips from Hitchcock films in the
movie theater scene in 12 Monkeys starring Bruce Willis? If you had to
summarize the point of this sequence in that film, what would you say?
fulls...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/fullscreen
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Joe
In article <19970212042...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
fulls...@aol.com (FullScreen) wrote:
> What did people think of the use of clips from Hitchcock films in the
> movie theater scene in 12 Monkeys starring Bruce Willis? If you had to
> summarize the point of this sequence in that film, what would you say?
A brief summary would be that Hitchcock's Vertigo is about obsession and
the effects that it has on the main characters of that film.
A similar thread of obsession runs through 12 Monkeys.
--
"When I die I want to pass on peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did, not screaming and yelling like the passengers riding in his car."
Vanessa Bartram
Where was this in 12 Monkeys? I don't remember it.
FullScreen (fulls...@aol.com) wrote:
: What did people think of the use of clips from Hitchcock films in the
: movie theater scene in 12 Monkeys starring Bruce Willis? If you had to
: summarize the point of this sequence in that film, what would you say?
Bryant Frazer
Kolaga <Xiuhte...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
: I state with "proof by assertion" that there is no relationship
: between the Hitchcock films and the narrative of 12 Monkeys. What
: is happening is that Terry Gilliam, the writers and the producers
: are trying to improve their image by "name-dropping" and associating
: the movie with other prestigious films.
Would you also assert that there is no relationship between VERTIGO and LA
JETEE? If so, I would argue the point vehemently -- of course. it has more
to do with mood and tone (and emotional pitch) than with the narrative of
either film. VERTIGO is not a science fiction film, and while it does hint
at time travel (through reincarnation), that's part of a deception. (But
the illusion is so much more alluring than the Moebius-loop reality!) Can
you claim that Chris Marker's VERTIGO reference is simply gratuitous? And
if not, why is the reference gratuitous in TWELVE MONKEYS? It sure worked
for me.
At any rate, the fellow who directed BRAZIL and the guy who wrote BLADE
RUNNER and UNFORGIVEN have no need, in my book, to associate themselves
with someone else's prestigious films. Their own pictures are pretty
prestigious. Wouldn't you say?
-bf-
--
DEEP FOCUS (Movie Reviews)
http://www.panix.com/~bfrazer/flicker/
"You can imagine how badly I wanted
my twenty-five dollars back."
Kolaga
On 13 Feb 1997 14:18:53 GMT, jbo...@mail.avid.com (Joe) wrote:
>In article <19970212042...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>fulls...@aol.com (FullScreen) wrote:
>
>> What did people think of the use of clips from Hitchcock films in the
>> movie theater scene in 12 Monkeys starring Bruce Willis? If you had to
>> summarize the point of this sequence in that film, what would you say?
>
>A brief summary would be that Hitchcock's Vertigo is about obsession and
>the effects that it has on the main characters of that film.
>
>A similar thread of obsession runs through 12 Monkeys.
I think that the Vertigo clip was introduced to establish a linkage
to a still-frame picture from La Jette (the putative "inspiration"
for 12 Monkeys that the director never saw). In La Jette, the two
main characters stand in front of a tree-ring display and the
time-travler points off the tree to explain where he comes from.
I state with "proof by assertion" that there is no relationship
between the Hitchcock films and the narrative of 12 Monkeys. What
is happening is that Terry Gilliam, the writers and the producers
are trying to improve their image by "name-dropping" and associating
the movie with other prestigious films.
To be a Vertigo-type film, the central character must have a
phobia which plays a crucial role in the narrative. The phobia
must be used against the central character in the commission of
a crime. The central character must later on overcome the phobia
as a part of the aftermath of the crime.
Furthermore, the phobia must have some sort of symbolic meaning.
Scottie's fear of falling is related to his fear of relationships
and "falling in love."
Brian DePalma did a cute send-up of many Hitchcock themes in Body
Double. The central character's phobia was claustrophobia.
Bryant Frazer
Here there be VERTIGO spoilers, so if you haven't seen the movie for God's
sake turn off your computer and go watch it!
Kolaga <Xiuhte...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
<some stuff about VERTIGO and "the brevity of life" that I don't really
want to get into has been deleted>
: When the Kim Novac character (I don't know when she's Madeliene and
: when she's Judy) points at the tree rings and says "Here I was born
: and here I died", it was not to indicate that she a time-traveler
: who had already died. It was part of the deception. She was acting
: as if she was Carlotta.
You don't need to explain the plot to me.
: In LA JETEE, the man points to a place beyond the tree rings to
: try to explain "This is where I come from -- I come from the future".
Yes; and we are led to believe -- as Scotty is led to believe -- that
Madeline has been reincarnated. In that way, she is (in your words) "a
time-traveler who [has] already died." This is where I come from, Scotty
-- I come from the past.
: Sure, there is a melancholia built in to LA JETEE so it's easy to
: compare the two films.
More than that -- they both involve doubles. VERTIGO involves the
deceptive double of Carlotta and Madeline, the deceptive double of
Madeline and Judy, and the cruel doppelganger that is Scotty's life
repeating itself as he loses Madeline/Judy not once, but twice. In LA
JETEE, of course, the man's life doubles over on itself. He falls in love
with a face as a child and then meets that face later in life -- with his
doppelganger child present, watching.
: Inserting the VERTIGO clip into 12M is like an advertising trick. In
: fact, much of 12M consists of scenes designed for people with short
: attention spans and which impart emotional messages as opposed to
: a movie which presents facts. For a good "fact-based" movie, I just
: watched THE KILLERS (1946).
Yeah, I saw THE KILLERS a long time ago, and I liked it too. I don't
understand what you think is innately inferior about images which "impart
emotional messages" and further can't figure out what you mean by a movie
"which presents facts." In a work of fiction, what are "facts," and why
are the "facts" of THE KILLERS (which is itself a noir procedural that
springs from the mere suggestion of a procedure in a Hemingway short
story) superior to the "facts" of TWELVE MONKEYS?
: TWELVE MONKEYS is full of Madison Avenue psychological gimmicks
: designed
: to attach a mood to certain things and concepts.
Funny -- I thought they were Hollywood psychological gimmicks. And if they
work, why quibble?
: In fact, I don't
: remember anyone who objects to the idea that Madeliene Stowe "falls in
: love" with Bruce Willis after being abducted at gun point, tied up
: on a motel room bed and then, to cap it off, being locked in a
: automobile trunk. Even the ex-mental patient in TIE ME UP! TIE ME
: DOWN! is nicer to his victim than James Cole is to Kathryn Railly.
This is a pretty good point. I think you have to give the movie the
benefit of the doubt -- she forgives him his transgressions against her
because she recognizes his desperation and, more importantly, because she
recognizes *him* against all odds and feels driven to learn where he comes
from. (For that matter, Scotty's treatment of Judy in VERTIGO creeps me
out pretty bad, and she still hangs around with him -- but I realize that
in VERTIGO, Scotty's unsavory behavior is the point.)
: >At any rate, the fellow who directed BRAZIL and the guy who wrote BLADE
: >RUNNER and UNFORGIVEN have no need, in my book, to associate themselves
: >with someone else's prestigious films. Their own pictures are pretty
: >prestigious. Wouldn't you say?
: BLADE RUNNER is not a great film. Nice visuals, but there's
: insufficient character development and there's plot holes.
Didn't say it was "a great film," although I could argue it, depending on
which definition of "great" we're using today. Character development is
not BLADE RUNNER's strong suit, nor should it be. I think the postmodern
stiffness of Deckard's character suits the movie's themes well, and I even
enjoyed Harrison Ford's performance -- as well as those of just about
everyone involved excepting Sean Young.
I did, however, describe it as "prestigious," an adjective chosen to
respond to your argument that Gilliam and conspirators wanted to associate
themselves with well-respected films.
: BRAZIL is a Terry Gilliam film and I like it. It's got good satire
: and an original plot. It's a three-star film which means it's worth
: seeing.
I'd rate BRAZIL considerably higher on that scale, but there are a lot of
smart people who don't share my opinion. At least we agree that it's worth
seeing.
Are you still worried about the Terry Gilliam/Richard Speck connection?
Kolaga
On 15 Feb 1997 23:54:38 -0500, bfr...@panix.com (Bryant Frazer)
wrote:
>Kolaga <Xiuhte...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>: I state with "proof by assertion" that there is no relationship
>: between the Hitchcock films and the narrative of 12 Monkeys. What
>: is happening is that Terry Gilliam, the writers and the producers
>: are trying to improve their image by "name-dropping" and associating
>: the movie with other prestigious films.
>
>Would you also assert that there is no relationship between VERTIGO and LA
>JETEE?
The mood of VERTIGO is melancholy. Scottie winds up in a mental
institution for six months or so suffering from depression. The Kim
Novac character attempts suicide. The whole point of the scene at
the tree-ring display is to give Kim Novac's character a chance to
ruminate on the brevity of life.
When the Kim Novac character (I don't know when she's Madeliene and
when she's Judy) points at the tree rings and says "Here I was born
and here I died", it was not to indicate that she a time-traveler
who had already died. It was part of the deception. She was acting
as if she was Carlotta.
In LA JETEE, the man points to a place beyond the tree rings to
try to explain "This is where I come from -- I come from the future".
Sure, there is a melancholia built in to LA JETEE so it's easy to
compare the two films.
>If so, I would argue the point vehemently -- of course. it has more
>to do with mood and tone (and emotional pitch) than with the narrative of
>either film. VERTIGO is not a science fiction film, and while it does hint
>at time travel (through reincarnation), that's part of a deception. (But
>the illusion is so much more alluring than the Moebius-loop reality!) Can
>you claim that Chris Marker's VERTIGO reference is simply gratuitous? And
>if not, why is the reference gratuitous in TWELVE MONKEYS? It sure worked
>for me.
Inserting the VERTIGO clip into 12M is like an advertising trick. In
fact, much of 12M consists of scenes designed for people with short
attention spans and which impart emotional messages as opposed to
a movie which presents facts. For a good "fact-based" movie, I just
watched THE KILLERS (1946).
TWELVE MONKEYS is full of Madison Avenue psychological gimmicks
designed
to attach a mood to certain things and concepts. In fact, I don't
remember anyone who objects to the idea that Madeliene Stowe "falls in
love" with Bruce Willis after being abducted at gun point, tied up
on a motel room bed and then, to cap it off, being locked in a
automobile trunk. Even the ex-mental patient in TIE ME UP! TIE ME
DOWN! is nicer to his victim than James Cole is to Kathryn Railly.
>At any rate, the fellow who directed BRAZIL and the guy who wrote BLADE
>RUNNER and UNFORGIVEN have no need, in my book, to associate themselves
>with someone else's prestigious films. Their own pictures are pretty
>prestigious. Wouldn't you say?
BLADE RUNNER is not a great film. Nice visuals, but there's
insufficient character development and there's plot holes.
BRAZIL is a Terry Gilliam film and I like it. It's got good satire
and an original plot. It's a three-star film which means it's worth
seeing.
Look at a film like THE NAVIGATOR: A MEDIEVAL ODYSSEY (1988) for a
good "time-travel" film to compare to TWELVE MONKEYS.
Erik Gregersen
In article <5e8n7i$4...@panix.com>, Bryant Frazer <bfr...@panix.com> wrote:
>Here there be VERTIGO spoilers, so if you haven't seen the movie for God's
>sake turn off your computer and go watch it!
>Kolaga <Xiuhte...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>: Sure, there is a melancholia built in to LA JETEE so it's easy to
>: compare the two films.
>
>More than that -- they both involve doubles. VERTIGO involves the
>deceptive double of Carlotta and Madeline, the deceptive double of
>Madeline and Judy, and the cruel doppelganger that is Scotty's life
>repeating itself as he loses Madeline/Judy not once, but twice. In LA
>JETEE, of course, the man's life doubles over on itself. He falls in love
>with a face as a child and then meets that face later in life -- with his
>doppelganger child present, watching.
This last paragraph almost got to why Vertigo shows up in 12 Monkeys, but
didn't quite hit the spot. If you remember the scene in the movie theater,
Cole says he has seen Vertigo before, but he didn't remember the bit with
the tree stump. The movie never changes, but you do, so the experience
is different. This foreshadows what later happens to Cole. The events
at the airport have not changed, but Cole has. Of course, this point
could have been made if Cole and Reilly saw Independence Day, but since
they saw Vertigo, a film about a man who repeats the same tragic events,
we get the idea that maybe Cole is also trapped in time. (And, of course,
you get the La Jetee reference as a bonus.)
>
>: Inserting the VERTIGO clip into 12M is like an advertising trick. In
>: fact, much of 12M consists of scenes designed for people with short
>: attention spans and which impart emotional messages as opposed to
>: a movie which presents facts. For a good "fact-based" movie, I just
>: watched THE KILLERS (1946).
Interesting idea about facts vs. emotion. Could you explain this a bit
more?
Sidenote: Since I've seen 12 Monkeys, I can't help but think of Vertigo
as a time-travel movie. Along with Sunset Boulevard, these two movies
could be called non-sci-fi time travel, or stories about low-tech means
of escaping the 60 seconds per minute flow of time. Can anyone think of
any others?
Erik Gregersen
er...@astro.as.utexas.edu
http://bubba.as.utexas.edu/erik
The last good movie I've seen: The Apartment
Robert...@teleport.com
> er...@vesta.as.utexas.edu (Erik Gregersen) writes:
[snip]
> Sidenote: Since I've seen 12 Monkeys, I can't help but think of Vertigo
> as a time-travel movie. Along with Sunset Boulevard, these two movies
> could be called non-sci-fi time travel, or stories about low-tech means
> of escaping the 60 seconds per minute flow of time. Can anyone think of
> any others?
>>>>
Practically all films escape the "60 seconds per minute flow of time"....
Gone With the Wind would be over six years long...lots of pop corn...
Groundhog Day
Lone Star
Citizen Kane
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kolaga
On 17 Feb 1997 23:17:53 GMT, er...@vesta.as.utexas.edu (Erik Gregersen)
wrote:
>In article <5e8n7i$4...@panix.com>, Bryant Frazer <bfr...@panix.com> wrote:
>>Here there be VERTIGO spoilers, so if you haven't seen the movie for God's
>>sake turn off your computer and go watch it!
>>Kolaga <Xiuhte...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>: Sure, there is a melancholia built in to LA JETEE so it's easy to
>>: compare the two films.
>>
>>More than that -- they both involve doubles. VERTIGO involves the
>>deceptive double of Carlotta and Madeline, the deceptive double of
>>Madeline and Judy, and the cruel doppelganger that is Scotty's life
>>repeating itself as he loses Madeline/Judy not once, but twice. In LA
>>JETEE, of course, the man's life doubles over on itself. He falls in love
>>with a face as a child and then meets that face later in life -- with his
>>doppelganger child present, watching.
>
>This last paragraph almost got to why Vertigo shows up in 12 Monkeys, but
>didn't quite hit the spot. If you remember the scene in the movie theater,
>Cole says he has seen Vertigo before, but he didn't remember the bit with
>the tree stump. The movie never changes, but you do, so the experience
>is different. This foreshadows what later happens to Cole. The events
>at the airport have not changed, but Cole has. Of course, this point
>could have been made if Cole and Reilly saw Independence Day, but since
>they saw Vertigo, a film about a man who repeats the same tragic events,
>we get the idea that maybe Cole is also trapped in time. (And, of course,
>you get the La Jetee reference as a bonus.)
One of the things that people have not remarked much about is that
Madeleine Stowe is playing the role of Scottie and Bruce Willis is
playing the role of Judy in this Monkey Vertigo movie. Kathryn Railly
is the one who believes that she has seen James Cole somewhere before.
Kathryn Railly is the one who makes over James Cole with clothes and
a change of hair style into the man she "remembers". Finally, it's
Kathryn Railly who leads James Cole to his death.
Here's a URL of a nice review of 12 Monkeys that I can live with:
http://www.sacbee.com/leisure/themovieclub/reviews/review_archives/96/monkeys.html
============ short quote ============================================
Cole is played by Bruce Willis, who does a stoned variation of
his John McClane renegade character from the "Die Hard" trilogy. The
whole film around Cole seems stoned.
==================== end quote ======================================
Yep. TWELVE MONKEYS is a stoned movie!!
>>: Inserting the VERTIGO clip into 12M is like an advertising trick. In
>>: fact, much of 12M consists of scenes designed for people with short
>>: attention spans and which impart emotional messages as opposed to
>>: a movie which presents facts. For a good "fact-based" movie, I just
>>: watched THE KILLERS (1946).
>
>Interesting idea about facts vs. emotion. Could you explain this a bit
>more?
Some movies are based on appeals to the emotions and other are based
on a documentary style. Take Citizen Kane, for example. The facts
are presented -- the emotional reaction to those facts are up to
the audience. Vertigo presents situations in which emotional states
are the all important thing. When Scottie is sitting mute in his room
in mental hospital, the important thing is that the audience feel his
melancholy. When Scottie first sees the transfigured Judy, the
important thing is that the audience feel his sense of wonder and joy.
Maybe I'm a weirdo, but I always liked Dragnet -- "Just the facts,
Ma'am"
>Sidenote: Since I've seen 12 Monkeys, I can't help but think of Vertigo
>as a time-travel movie. Along with Sunset Boulevard, these two movies
>could be called non-sci-fi time travel, or stories about low-tech means
>of escaping the 60 seconds per minute flow of time. Can anyone think of
>any others?
At one place in Vertigo, I think it's Judy who tells Scottie that he
"can't go back in time." Meaning that he can't undo what's already
been done. She could have said "It's no use crying over spilled
milk." Vertigo is no H.G. Wells novel. Norma Desmond in Sunset
Boulevard seems to be living in a time warp. She isn't trying to
recreate the past -- she just can't accept that time has past and
that she is no longer a star.
Lance DuBach
Hi all,
Very interesting thread here. I must admit that 12 Monkeys is the first
Gilliam film that I just didn't like. When I first saw the airport scene,
I just knew that Cole was going to die there. After that, I'm afraid that
I lost interest in the film (and I admire Gilliam's film a great deal).
I can't answer the very slow time travel movie question, but I always
thought that the most realistic time-travel movie would be "Slaughterhouse
Five." I remember reading a great short story once about a tribe of people
who find a man in a force field who has managed to reverse time within the
field. They, of course, have no idea what is going on. The narrator
describes how they found a skeleton in a bubble they can't break into, how
the skeleton reassembles into an old man, and how the old man becoes
younger. The life time of the story is the narrator's lifetime since both
are living at the same speed, just in reverse. The title was "The Very
Slow Time Machine."
This really has nothing to do with this thread, but..
Yours,
Lance
Robert...@teleport.com
> "Lance DuBach" <ldu...@soback.kornet.nm.kr> writes:
> Very interesting thread here. I must admit that 12 Monkeys is the first
> Gilliam film that I just didn't like. When I first saw the airport scene,
> I just knew that Cole was going to die there. After that, I'm afraid that
> I lost interest in the film (and I admire Gilliam's film a great deal).
...and when I saw the duel scene in Hamlet I knew Hamlet would die
during it and lost all interest in the play.
There are, in life and art, only a very limited number of possible
eventual outcomes.
[snip]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lance DuBach
touche
D Hines
Lance DuBach wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Very interesting thread here. I must admit that 12 Monkeys is the first
> Gilliam film that I just didn't like. When I first saw the airport scene,
> I just knew that Cole was going to die there. After that, I'm afraid that
> I lost interest in the film (and I admire Gilliam's film a great deal).
Actually, "12 Monkeys" is the first Gilliam film I've seen in a while
that I enjoyed completely. "Fisher King" and "Brazil" are a lot of fun,
but Gilliam can't (usually) seem to resist the urge to occasionally go
COMPLETELY over the top. In a lot of ways, he resisted it with
"Monkeys".
BTW, his use of Hitchcock was borderline brilliant. The hero thinks he
he has seen a woman he meets in the past, in a earlier stage of his
life. She begins a makeover to help disguise them while they watch
"Vertigo", and she too dons a blonde wig. He falls asleep only to
awaken, completely made over, completely confused and during an attack
on Tippi Hedren in "The Birds". Also, she's a woman whose promise of
love will only lead to his demise. I think it's a nice emblematic use
of Hitch (as opposed to 'rip offs' a la 80's Brian DePalma flicks).
--
Dellis Hines | CAVEAT LECTOR! These are my opinions, not
Datalytics, Inc. | those of my organization; to be taken with a
del...@datalytics.com | grain of salt, etc.