Mockingbirds - let's clear this up!
muf...@labyrinth.net.au
Thanks to Neill Potts for the further information on magpies ...
Now, here's a summary of the story so far, and some further thoughts.
'Elster' in German = 'mockingbird' and/or 'magpie'. (Can anyone give an
absolutely definitive translation, please?)
Bruce Christopher thinks that Madeleine in VERTIGO is wearing a mockingbird
pin. For my money, that means she probably is.
So, what are the traits of a mockingbird?
Stephen Linsenhoff says it 'takes shiny things'. Is this correct, anyone?
And what is the relevance (if any) to Gavin Elster in the film? Could we say
that he has 'collected' Judy/Madeleine (and then discarded her again)?
Or does 'mockingbird' connote something different? For instance, could we say
that Judy imitates (= mocks, as in 'mock turtle soup' or 'mock cream')
Madeleine?
Please, come on someone in the US. Answer up! This seems important. What
does Madeleine's broach signify to you? Just that Judy/Madeleine is
'possessed' or 'owned' by Gavin Elster? That she has been 'collected' by him?
That Judy is a mock-Madeleine?
And ARE mockingbirds in the US the same as magpies?
- Ken Mogg
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Dan Auiler
I don't if this helps, but according to the Oxford, the mockingbird is in
the genus mimus polyglotus--it's called Mockingbird over here because it
mimics other song birds (which, of course fits nicely with Madeleine).
This is not a magpie which is known for its thievery and also exists in the
US (the bird, that is) and is somewhat similar in appearance to the
Mockingbird. The magpie is a form of pigeon.
muf...@labyrinth.net.au wrote in message
<6kuo7t$ckl$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
BillyBond
I suspect the pin was something Edith Head had handy, and Hitchcock thought it
looked neat.
Bill Warren
Michael Gottuso
I strongly feel that the brooch serves a purpose as much as Hitchcock
determined Kim Novak to wear that famous grey suit. Everything on
Madeleine has a significance. Even Judy. Its obvious why Judy chooses
a purple dress to wear for her date with Scottie. Mockingbirds here in
US "mock" the sounds of other birds and they are sometimes called "cat
birds" because they like to tease cats in a way that I don't really
know. My interpretation of Madeleine's "mockingbird" brooch is simply
as this - Madeleine is mocking Elster's wife. Hitchcock is a genius for
details - look at that little fly on Norman Bates' hand ... now that
says something.
BillyBond
>From: "Dan Auiler" <dana...@sprintmail.com>
You know, the most famous use of the mockingbird is in the song "Listen to the
Mockingbird" -- and in that song, the mocking bird is "singing o'er her grave."
Bill Warren
Ray Tucker
On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:26:23 GMT, muf...@labyrinth.net.au wrote:
>Thanks to Neill Potts for the further information on magpies ...
>
>Now, here's a summary of the story so far, and some further thoughts.
>
>'Elster' in German = 'mockingbird' and/or 'magpie'. (Can anyone give an
>absolutely definitive translation, please?)
>
>Bruce Christopher thinks that Madeleine in VERTIGO is wearing a mockingbird
>pin. For my money, that means she probably is.
>
>So, what are the traits of a mockingbird?
>
>Stephen Linsenhoff says it 'takes shiny things'. Is this correct, anyone?
>And what is the relevance (if any) to Gavin Elster in the film? Could we say
>that he has 'collected' Judy/Madeleine (and then discarded her again)?
>
As far as this goes, Judy us given away by the necklace, a "shiny
thing" she took as a memento. It's an interesting observation,
although I wouldn't carry it TOO far. (okay, sometimes I am the first
to get carried away with trying to pick things apart!!)
Hughes
On 01 Jun 1998 20:21:25 GMT, bill...@aol.com (BillyBond) wrote:
>You know, the most famous use of the mockingbird is in the song "Listen to the
>Mockingbird" -- and in that song, the mocking bird is "singing o'er her grave."
Never heard of it.
Is that the famous song that's actually a nursery rhyme to send kids
off to sleep?
... "Daddy's gonna buy you a mockingbird,
And if that mocking bird don't sing,
Daddy's gonna buy you a diamond ring ..." etc.
That's the most famous reference I've heard.
Fergal Hughes.
--
Oh, I'll find something else.
See you in court.
Hughes
On Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:04:41 -0400, mik...@webtv.net (Michael Gottuso)
wrote:
>look at that little fly on Norman Bates' hand ... now that
>says something.
I think you're right. Although I'd never dwelled on the matter before,
its obviously some kind of reference ... similar to the earlier scene
where the middle-aged woman is looking for a painless way to be rid of
insects. ("... it must be painless.")
BillyBond
>From: thhu...@indigo.ie (Hughes)
>>look at that little fly on Norman Bates' hand ... now that
>>says something.
>
>I think you're right. Although I'd never dwelled on the matter before,
>its obviously some kind of reference ...
Yes -- to the phrase "Why he/she wouldn't even harm a fly."
Bill Warren
BillyBond
>From: thhu...@indigo.ie (Hughes)
>Never heard of it.
>Is that the famous song that's actually a nursery rhyme to send kids
>off to sleep?
Nope. It's called "Listen to the Mockingbird." (Which I do. All day -- and
all night. The damned things never sleep.)
Listen to the mockingbird, listen to the mockingbird
Still singing where the weeping willows wave
Listen to the mockingbird, listen to the mockingbird,
(something) singing o'er her grave
Bill Warren
Shtimsdrow
Michael Gottuso wrote:
>Mockingbirds here in
>US "mock" the sounds of other birds and they are sometimes called "cat
>birds" because they like to tease cats in a way that I don't really
>know.
They might be, but the catbird is actually a different bird.
-----------------------------------------------------
Richard Keith Carson
Carson and Company, Wordsmiths
http://www.vashonisland.com/carson
Hughes
>look at that little fly on Norman Bates' hand ...
"I've tried many brands ... <snip> ... let's see what they say about
this one. ... They tell you what its ingredients are ... and how its
guaranteed to exterminate every insect in the world ... but they do
not tell you whether or not its painless ... and I say, insect or man,
death should always be painless."
"I'm not even going to swat that fly. I hope they *are* watching.
They'll see. They'll see, they'll know and they'll say, 'Why she
wouldn't even harm a fly'".
The first quote always leaves me with a bitter taste as it
(callously?) follows directly on from the horrific shower murder. What
a nice lady though - so thoughtful and humane when exterminating
pests.
The second quote displays Mother's manipulative side; she knows that
people warm more to you if you are kind to dumb animals (or insects
even) and cynically plots to avoid detection by subtly appealing to
one's human(e) nature.
I never made a connection between these two quotes before. I always
thought the first quote was merely a 'moment-filler', a touch of irony
after what I'd just experienced. Then again, maybe I shouldn't notice
a connection. Maybe I'm not noticing but reading into. Anyways ...
Fergal Hughes.
BillyBond
>From: thhu...@indigo.ie (Hughes)
>Then again, maybe I shouldn't notice
>a connection. Maybe I'm not noticing but reading into.
Never fear to read into; if you can back it up, it's a legitimate observation.
The trick, however, is not to claim that "Hitchcock must have meant..."
Evidently, to a large degree, once the details of the plot were worked out,
Hitchcock let his writers come up with the dialog themselves. This is
mentioned (by Hitchcock!) in Dan Auiler's book, and Joseph Stefano says
something to this effect in the making of PSYCHO documentary. (But he also
says that he invented everything that happens prior to Marion Crane's arrival
at the motel -- apparently assuming Bloch's book is no longer around to be
compared.)
Bill Warren
netti...@gmail.com
> Thanks to Neill Potts for the further information on magpies ...
>
> Now, here's a summary of the story so far, and some further thoughts.
>
> 'Elster' in German = 'mockingbird' and/or 'magpie'. (Can anyone give an
> absolutely definitive translation, please?)
>
> Bruce Christopher thinks that Madeleine in VERTIGO is wearing a mockingbird
> pin. For my money, that means she probably is.
>
> So, what are the traits of a mockingbird?
>
> Stephen Linsenhoff says it 'takes shiny things'. Is this correct, anyone?
> And what is the relevance (if any) to Gavin Elster in the film? Could we say
> that he has 'collected' Judy/Madeleine (and then discarded her again)?
>