Who turned down the lights in "Vertigo"?
Wide Gauge
In the bookstore scene, when "Pops" is telling the dark story of Carlotta to
Stewart and Bel Geddes, the store lights slowly fade almost to black
(apparently via post-production optical effect). In the following exterior, the
store lights quite suddenly switch back on. I had thought at first it was some
eerie impressionism by Hitchcock, but now I keep visualizing Madeleine's
husband Gavin with his hand on the light dimmer in a back room at the
bookstore. Any other scenes in this film to be explained this way? How did
Madeleine disappear at the boarding house?
Scott Marshall
Wide Gauge Film and Video Monthly
http://members.aol.com/widegauge/
Michael Gottuso
I noticed that too - the lights changing inside the book store - and I
always thought it was a technical error. After thinking about it, its
most likely not an error. I still can't come up with an interpretation
of the bookstore lights. But it certainly gives the scene an eerie
feeling (maybe thats the purpose - who knows?)
BillyBond
>Subject: Who turned down the lights in "Vertigo"?
>In the bookstore scene, when "Pops" is telling the dark story of Carlotta to
>Stewart and Bel Geddes, the store lights slowly fade almost to black
>(apparently via post-production optical effect). In the following exterior the
store lights quite suddenly switch back on.
There's no mystery here, and no post-production dimming -- not sure that's
possible. The lights went down because it was getting dark outside; they came
on brighter afterward because the shop owner turned them on.
Bill Warren
Iksnamhcok
> The lights went down because it was getting dark outside; they came
>on brighter afterward because the shop owner turned them on.
>
>
I don't buy it. I think Hitchcock was aiming for some sort of effect (like the
diffusion in the cemetery scene), but it didn't come off.
FilmGene
<<I don't buy it. I think Hitchcock was aiming for some sort of effect (like
the
diffusion in the cemetery scene), but it didn't come off.>>
What’s not to buy? They go into the bookstore and it becomes dusk. The effect
Hitchcock wanted was a subtle, subliminal feeling of something wrong —
something you’re barely aware of. He succeeded admirably. The fact that the
owner turns on the lights after they leave makes it quite clear that it was NOT
some sort of diffusion effect, but exactly what it appears to be.
Gene Stavis, School of Visual Arts - NYC
Wide Gauge
>There's no mystery here, and no post-production dimming -- not sure that's
>possible.
If you look at the pre-restoration VHS video, the effect is so intense that you
can't even make out the actors' faces when the scene ends. Run the shot over
and over in fast motion, and you'll see plenty of evidence that it's an optical
effect (watch the uneven dimming above Pops' head outside, not explainable by
his puffing smoke at one point). The effect is lessened in the restoration,
because of compensation for fading of the original negatives and generally
lower contrast prints then the old Technicolor ones.
>The lights went down because it was getting dark outside; they came on
brighter afterward because the shop owner turned them on.
Not a bad theory except the interior lighting shining into their faces seemed
to dim more than the outside lights.
Stephan Linsenhoff
Wide Gauge wrote in message
<19980115204...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>In the bookstore scene, when "Pops" is telling the dark story of Carlotta
to
>Stewart and Bel Geddes, the store lights slowly fade almost to black
>(apparently via post-production optical effect). In the following exterior,
the
>store lights quite suddenly switch back on. I had thought at first it was
some
>eerie impressionism by Hitchcock, but now I keep visualizing Madeleine's
>husband Gavin with his hand on the light dimmer in a back room at the
>bookstore. Any other scenes in this film to be explained this way? How did
>Madeleine disappear at the boarding house?
>
>Scott Marshall
>Wide Gauge Film and Video Monthly
>http://members.aol.com/widegauge/
>
I see it as an estranging effect - as many others in Vertigo - conscious by
the master himself. If you follow the talk its time has no cut. During that
short time-correct talk the light outside can't fade so quick. Pop Leibl
turns, when they left, the shops electric light on. For me, as many other
effects, it's Hitchcocks concious effect we call estranging. The same is
with Hitchcocks cameo with a case in its hand. I mentioned it before, it's
not at all a case with a musicinstrument as one said. It's Scotties phallic
disability, locked in that case.
Stephan Linsenhoff
BillyBond
>From: iksna...@aol.com (Iksnamhcok)
>> The lights went down because it was getting dark outside; they came
>>on brighter afterward because the shop owner turned them on.
>I don't buy it. I think Hitchcock was aiming for some sort of effect (like
the
>diffusion in the cemetery scene), but it didn't come off.
Well, er, you're mistaken. Watch the scene again; the lights get dim for
exactly the reason I say: it gets late in the day. When Scottie goes out to
the sidewalk, it's considerably darker THERE than when he came in -- and after
a beat, THEN the lights inside the shop come on.
Hitchcock was indeed trying for an emotional effect in that scene, but was
careful to give it a "real world" explanation.
>
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>
>
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>
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Bill Warren
BillyBond
>From: mik...@webtv.net (Michael Gottuso)
>I still can't come up with an interpretation
>of the bookstore lights.
No explanation is necessary. The store had some, but not many, lights on; as
it got darker outside, it got darker inside -- but even darker than outside
because it >IS< inside.
Look at it again -- especially the scene on the sidewalk after they leave
the bookstore. There's a pause, and THEN the lights inside come on; I think
you can actually see the store owner TURN them on.
Bill Warren
Bruce Christopher
BillyBond wrote:
> No explanation is necessary. The store had some, but not many, lights on; as
> it got darker outside, it got darker inside -- but even darker than outside
> because it >IS< inside.
> Look at it again -- especially the scene on the sidewalk after they leave
> the bookstore. There's a pause, and THEN the lights inside come on; I think
> you can actually see the store owner TURN them on.
>
> Bill Warren
The rate at which the light dims makes me think
it was a dark cloud passing over outside.
Bruce Christopher
Iksnamhcok
>The effect
>Hitchcock wanted was a subtle, subliminal feeling of something wrong
Maybe. Hitchcock was probably aiming for something like that. But I must say,
I've always found the effect distracting. The fact that no one else in this
newsgroup seems able to pin the effect down suggests to me that others find it
distracting as well.
BillyBond
>From: iksna...@aol.com (Iksnamhcok)
> The fact that no one else in this
>newsgroup seems able to pin the effect down suggests to me that others find it
distracting as well.
???? Not sure what you mean by no one being able "to pin the effect down."
It gets dark because it gets later in the day. After Scottie goes out to the
sidewalk, the store owner turns on the lights.
Bill Warren
ThaShmatta
i think this is a perfect example of what hitchcock likes to call a completely
gratuitous scene. its something that could happen only in a movie. like the
crop dusting sequence in North by Northwest there isn't any real explanation
for it (would they really have gone to all that trouble just to kill him?)
Hithcock loves to put these sequences in his films and considers them to be
"true cinema"
the first time i saw the lights come back on after they left the book store, i
laughed. i don't know why but i thought it was funny.
Hitch discusses things like this with Francois Truffaut in thier famous
interview which is definately worth getting.
Josh
muf...@labyrinth.net.au
Jan. 20 Plenty of discussion at the moment on the <alt.movies.hitchcock>
newsgroup about the technical
aspects, at least, of the scene in Vertigo (1958) set in 'Pop' Leibl's
bookstore, which gradually darkens as 'Pop'
(Konstantin Shayne) tells his story of 'the sad Carlotta, the mad
Carlotta'. When Scottie (James Stewart) and
Midge (Barbara Bel Geddes) leave the store, we can see 'Pop' turn on the
store lights behind them. Thus the
scene conforms to the film's ongoing motif of characters/events going
from light to darkness to light again.
(Think of the Mission Dolores scene, the Podesta's flower shop scene,
the sequoia forest scene, etc.) In turn,
that motif links to Madeleine's reported recurring-dream in which she
sees herself walking down a corridor
towards darkness - which she fears will finally engulf her. (As I said
in a recent issue of 'The MacGuffin', I
suspect that Hitchcock took that image from a 1948 British film,
Corridor of Mirrors: there, a wealthy art-lover
believes that he and the girl who becomes his mistress are the
reincarnations of lovers from Renaissance Venice,
so he insists on her at least living the part.) The simultaneity of
'Pop' Liebl's account of Carlotta with the falling
darkness is, of course, a touching effect (accentuated by Midge's
visible concern as she edges closer to 'Pop',
and her final exclaiming of Carlotta - or is it of herself? - 'Poor
thing!').
- Ken Mogg
http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~muffin
pmsp...@hotmail.com
In article <19980119053...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
iksna...@aol.com (Iksnamhcok) wrote:
>
> >The effect
> >Hitchcock wanted was a subtle, subliminal feeling of something wrong
>
> Maybe. Hitchcock was probably aiming for something like that. But I must
say,
> newsgroup seems able to pin the effect down suggests to me that others find it
> distracting as well.
This one was done to death on the Vertigo Web Pages, which, sadly has
disappeared. It was absolutely, unequivocally, intentional on
Hitchcock's part. As Pop Leibel continues with his story and the story
becomes darker, so goes the bookstore. Then, after Scotty and Midge exit
to the sidewalk the bookstore once again bursts into light, as though Pop
Leibel had thrown an invisible switch. I think one of the problems with
the effect is, with an old film like this one, the viewer tends to
assume, as I did, that it is merely a bad master print causing the
effect. But with the restored "Vertigo" it becomes more clear that the
entire scene is as it was meant to be--just as the outdoor scenes were
filmed through a filter to give them a washed out appearance, and The
Empire Hotel was chosen specifically for it's green neon light outside
the window. Very Edward Hopperish, that hotel.
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Ray Tucker
No one seems to have noticed that the sound effects (traffic noise
etc.) become more muted as the scene progresses.
RFCSAC627N
>From: pmsp...@hotmail.com
>This one was done to death on the Vertigo Web Pages, which, sadly has
>disappeared.
The Vertigo Web Pages are alive and kicking. I checked it out this morning.
Richard Carnahan
Art H13315
Re the bookstore scene, besides all the reasons for its light (or lack thereof)
posted here..."Vertigo" also has its travelogue aspect (a la To Catch a Thief,
a rather different film). When it came out it looked like it was intended to be
San Franciso travelogue meets Diabolique meets Bridey Murphy...
So, the film covered San Francisco like a blanket. And the bookstore scene is
the only scene to have bad weather (which I think you have to include as an
occasional facet of San Francisco) and it's the only scene in Vertigo with a
cablecar.
(I hasten to add that Vertigo has "grown" so in our awareness of all that's in
it (stuff that was always there; just not apparent) that perfectly valid
nontravelogue, noncommercial interpretations can easily be made of everything
in it, from the Golden Gate Bridge on...
lz1527...@gmail.com
> Stewart and Bel Geddes, the store lights slowly fade almost to black
> (apparently via post-production optical effect). In the following exterior, the
> store lights quite suddenly switch back on. I had thought at first it was some
> eerie impressionism by Hitchcock, but now I keep visualizing Madeleine's
> husband Gavin with his hand on the light dimmer in a back room at the
> bookstore. Any other scenes in this film to be explained this way? How did
> Madeleine disappear at the boarding house?
>
> Scott Marshall
> Wide Gauge Film and Video Monthly
> http://members.aol.com/widegauge/
Auiler, Dan. Vertigo: The Making of a Hitchcock Classic: Special Edition