Meaning of the LP in Psycho
Irish Boxer
In Psycho (1960), at the end of the movie when Vera Miles is searching
through the house, she enters Norman's room and she looks at his
record player and in it is "Eroica". The camera stays on this for
about 3-4 seconds then goes away. My question is, what does this
symbolise? Does it show that Norman is a grow man living like a child?
Or is it some other meaning? Thank you,
Irish Boxer
http://members.home.net/ocean11/
Hughes
>In Psycho (1960), at the end of the movie when Vera Miles is searching
>through the house, she enters Norman's room and she looks at his
>record player and in it is "Eroica". The camera stays on this for
>about 3-4 seconds then goes away. My question is, what does this
>symbolise?
I know very little about this Beethoven symphony. If I did, though,
I'm guessing I'd probably find the information quite enlightening
(with respect to some elements of 'Psycho') and not view it as mere
filler.
Superficially speaking (for 'tis all my guess is), the word 'Eroica'
is one letter away from one of Norman's interests (!) ... and, if I'm
not mistaken, *that book* is examined by Lila just before she spies
the record.
Fergal Hughes.
P.S: HappY2K all.
--
Intelligence! Nothing has caused the human race so much trouble as intelligence.
Bill Warren
>In Psycho (1960), at the end of the movie when Vera Miles is searching
>through the house, she enters Norman's room and she looks at his
>record player and in it is "Eroica". The camera stays on this for
>about 3-4 seconds then goes away. My question is, what does this
>symbolise? Does it show that Norman is a grow man living like a child?
>Or is it some other meaning?
I don't think that by itself it means anything special -- but taken in
conjunction with what else is in the room is intended to indicate that Norman
is a child-man, a person who grew up in some ways, but not others.
Kitt...@encode.com
>Ok,
>In Psycho (1960), at the end of the movie when Vera Miles is searching
>through the house, she enters Norman's room and she looks at his
>record player and in it is "Eroica". The camera stays on this for
>about 3-4 seconds then goes away. My question is, what does this
>symbolise? Does it show that Norman is a grow man living like a child?
>Or is it some other meaning? Thank you,
>
>Irish Boxer
>http://members.home.net/ocean11/
Assuming Hitch was making a statement.
Per-Erik Skramstad
>
> Ok,
> In Psycho (1960), at the end of the movie when Vera Miles is searching
> through the house, she enters Norman's room and she looks at his
> record player and in it is "Eroica". The camera stays on this for
> about 3-4 seconds then goes away. My question is, what does this
> symbolise?
Hitchcock would never focus on an item like this without wanting it to
symbolize something.
The "Eroica" (Beethoven's 3. Symphony) is Beethovens tribute to
Napoleon. (It. eroico: heroic, powerful). The Eroica represents Norman's
dreams of power, of being something, being a hero. It emphasizes the
contrast between reality and Norman's fantasy world.
Another symbol of power fantasies (or fantasies of world domination) in
Hitchcock is the globe, seen in connection with some megalomaniac
villains.
--
p-e
Kitt...@encode.com
<pers...@online.no> wrote:
>Irish Boxer wrote:
>>
>> Ok,
>> In Psycho (1960), at the end of the movie when Vera Miles is searching
>> through the house, she enters Norman's room and she looks at his
>> record player and in it is "Eroica". The camera stays on this for
>> about 3-4 seconds then goes away. My question is, what does this
>> symbolise?
>
>Hitchcock would never focus on an item like this without wanting it to
>symbolize something.
>
Ok, I'll bite. If what you say is true, and I'm not disputing it, what
did the license plate imply since it received the same focus?
Hughes
>... what
>did the license plate imply since it received the same focus [as the 'Eroica' record]?
The old reliable.
A while back, quite an extensive argument took place here on this
topic. It seemed to be very popular some months ago in fact, to the
point that it was even raised a number of times at the Hitchcock
Centennial Conference in New York last October, with the only
constructive information coming out being Joe Stefano's statement that
the registrations on the plates (or the 'NFB-418' one at least, which
apparently belonged to a member of the crew, Green perhaps) were *not*
specific requests.
I'm more than a little confused on the matter myself. I have to say, I
never considered the plates' letters to be acronymic, etc. before it
was brought up here (when I was suddenly intrigued).
That's not to say I didn't ever consider them. Its just that when I
did, I think I put these shots down to the matter of *identity*, a
strong thematic concern of 'Psycho'.
Fergal Hughes.
Iksnamhcok
>dreams of power, of being something, being a hero.
I was just re-reading "Alfred Hitchcock and the Making of Psycho." Paramount's
internal censors recommended that Hitchcock show a different record label, but
Hitchcock stuck with Eroica. He must have had a reason for being insistent on
it. Your theory seems reasonable to me.
Per-Erik Skramstad
> Ok, I'll bite. If what you say is true, and I'm not disputing it, what
> did the license plate imply since it received the same focus?
I'm not sure I remember correctly, but I guess you mean the old car? As
far as I remember, I have always interpreted the lisence plate as a
symbol of Norman's lack of development. The car (and mother) is "dead"
but Norman keeps it "alive". But I should have seen the scene again
before "making a statement".
--
p-e
MovieGuy78
>not mistaken, *that book* is examined by Lila just before she spies
>the record.
You're right. That was an erotic book. It says so in the novel, and in the
re-make, which I know you all hate, it is greatly accentuated by replacing the
book with a porno magazine.
I liked the re-make, except for the fact that it was so full of sexual
undertones to rival the original in terms of taboos of the time. In the
opening hotel room scene, you can hear people making love. Sam Loomis is shown
butt naked. Norman now masturbates as he watches Marion through the hole in
the wall. When Arborgast stops at the phone booth, he is outside an obvious
strip bar. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Kitt...@encode.com
It's hard to imagine Hitchcok didn't have some deep subliminal message
somewhere in there.
Kitt...@encode.com
It is interesting speculation at the very least. Too bad only
Hitchcock can answer this. Don't you just hate questions that have no
answers?
Kitt...@encode.com
Hitchcocks' thoughts run very deeply.
Kitt...@encode.com
I'd sure love to get my hands on the original car shown in Halloween
H2O.
Per-Erik Skramstad
>
> >The Eroica represents Norman's
> >dreams of power, of being something, being a hero.
>
> I was just re-reading "Alfred Hitchcock and the Making of Psycho." Paramount's
> internal censors recommended that Hitchcock show a different record label, but
> Hitchcock stuck with Eroica.
It was not Eroica Hitchcock stuck with, but "Premier". Eroica is not a
label. The question is similar to what a director today could be faced
with: "Should we let the killer wear Nike shoes, or would that offend
the sponsors?"
--
p-e
muf...@labyrinth.net.au
RE: THE 'LP' IN PSYCHO
I've often been asked this! (By the way, it isn't of course a Long
Playing record that we see on the gramophone in Norman's room, but an
old 78rpm record.)
Beethoven's 'Eroica' Symphony was dedicated, as I understand, to the
'heroics' of Napoleon, whom Beethoven admired. It was a tribute from
one 'great man' to another.
The ironic counterpoint with Norman's obscure, out-of-the-way existence
is patent enough. The static record on the turntable, that probably
hasn't been played for years, most likely since Norman's happy childhood
with his mother, carries suggestions of one of Hitchcock's favourite,
and most poignant, motifs, the 'lost paradise'.
Also, as Raymond Durgnat first suggested, the word 'Eroica' is like
'erotica', another of Norman's concerns.
Norman is like some other of Hitchcock's 'villains', e.g., Brandon in
ROPE and Bruno in STRANGERS ON A TRAIN, in having substituted a
'perverted' form of sexuality for its most exalted, if no less
'perverted', form, i.e., artistic creativity. ('Everything's perverted
in a different way', Hitchcock once said, famously.)
In my book, I liken the Beethoven reference in PSYCHO to the Mozart
reference in THE WRONG MAN and the central references to art and
architecture in NORTH BY NORTHWEST (and, for that matter, VERTIGO).
They all introduce a certain large, and salutary, perspective, part of
what I call Hitchcock's 'outflanking technique'. Another instance is
the reference in THE BIRDS to how birds have been on this planet since
archeopteryx, i.e., since long before humankind.
In turn, I note that Hitchcock was here making use of a central motif
found in German Expressionist plays, etc., i.e., the idea of showing
'people their inauthentic existence, and to this end to involve them in
the act of creativity itself'. (The actual idea of making the reader or
audience part of the artist's own work, part of his creativity, and to
involve them in it, goes back to Romanticism.) There are several
overlaps with German Expressionism in PSYCHO.
Basically, of course, the shot of the record on the turntable fits with
the generally creepy, stagnant atmosphere of the Bates house. It is a
point-of-view shot from Lila's perspective as she explores that house
and absorbs that atmosphere.
Ken Mogg (author, 'The Alfred Hitchcock Story', the uncut UK edition - I
disown the shortened and 'simplified' US edition).
http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~muffin
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MESSAGE VIA DEJA.COM TO THIS NEWSGROUP WITHOUT CLICKING ON 'REPLY TO'?
SOMETIMES I WANT TO SEND A MESSAGE OF MY OWN STARTING A NEW THREAD. MY
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Before you buy.
AAnder8443
writes:
>Ok, I'll bite. If what you say is true, and I'm not disputing it, what
>did the license plate imply since it received the same focus?
It implied nothing. It was simply a conceit by a man who enjoyed a joke.
Andrew A
Bill Warren
>Basically, of course, the shot of the record on the turntable fits with
>the generally creepy, stagnant atmosphere of the Bates house. It is a
>point-of-view shot from Lila's perspective as she explores that house
>and absorbs that atmosphere.
Even without going into additional meanings/interpretations, the record is
something >unexpected<. The Norman we've already seen doesn't seem like the
type to sit around playing Beethoven; it adds a discordant note to our picture
of him.
Kitt...@encode.com
wrote:
Of course you would know.
Ken Mogg
Basically, of course, the shot of the record on the turntable fits with
the generally creepy, stagnant atmosphere of the Bates house. It is a
point-of-view shot from Lila's perspective as she explores that house
and absorbs that atmosphere.
Ken Mogg (author, 'The Alfred Hitchcock Story', the uncut UK edition - I
Kitt...@encode.com
wrote:
Very interesting. Too bad I can't get a definite fact on the license
plate.
muf...@labyrinth.net.au
Kitt...@encode.com wrote:
> Very interesting. Too bad I can't get a definite fact on the license
> plate.
As more than once reported here, director Richard Franklin (PSYCHO II)
told me that he was told by his producer Hilton Green, who was Assistant
Director on PSYCHO, that the numberplate on Marion's car which goes into
the swamp was off his (Hilton's) own car.
At NYU in October, screenwriter Joseph Stefano denied any knowledge that
the NFB numberplate had any significance in terms of the letters used.
- Ken Mogg (author of 'The AH Story', the UK edition - I disown the cut,
simplified and vulgarised US edition).
http//www.labyrinth.net.au/~muffin
Bill Warren
>> Very interesting. Too bad I can't get a definite fact on the license
>> plate.
>
>As more than once reported here, director Richard Franklin (PSYCHO II)
>told me that he was told by his producer Hilton Green, who was Assistant
>Director on PSYCHO, that the numberplate on Marion's car which goes into
>the swamp was off his (Hilton's) own car.
>
>At NYU in October, screenwriter Joseph Stefano denied any knowledge that
>the NFB numberplate had any significance in terms of the letters used.
It's weird how speculation can become "fact." I doubt that anyone prior to
Roger Wood ever thought the license plates, of all things, in PSYCHO had any
special meaning, or were "coded" in any way. But he says this -- evidently
without bothering to check with anyone -- and it becomes "fact."
Not the first time this has happened, and it won't be the last.
Kitt...@encode.com
wrote:
>>From: muf...@labyrinth.net.au
The fact I was referring to was whether or not the plate had
signifigance. If it is proven that the plate had no meaning, that is a
fact. And that is what I was looking for. I made no other "fact"
based on assumtion. You mis-read my post.
Kitt...@encode.com
>In article <cpr77sghtuar9r71o...@4ax.com>,
> Kitt...@encode.com wrote:
>
>> Very interesting. Too bad I can't get a definite fact on the license
>> plate.
>
>As more than once reported here, director Richard Franklin (PSYCHO II)
>told me that he was told by his producer Hilton Green, who was Assistant
>Director on PSYCHO, that the numberplate on Marion's car which goes into
>the swamp was off his (Hilton's) own car.
>
>At NYU in October, screenwriter Joseph Stefano denied any knowledge that
>the NFB numberplate had any significance in terms of the letters used.
>
I guess that says it.
MacGuffin
may be relevant.
Although the symphony was originally inspired by and dedicated to
Napoleon, before it was finished Beethoven changed the dedication to
be "in memory of a great hero." This happened after Napoleon proclaimed
himself Emperor, and Beethoven immediately realized that Bonaparte was
no savior for the common people, as he had hoped, but simply another
tyrant. His anger and disappointment can literally be seen on the
original title page of the manuscript, where the dedication was
violently scratched off the page by extreme pressure from his pen,
leaving a large hole in the paper.
Also, the second movement of the "Eroica" is one of the most famous
funeral marches in symphonic literature, and possibly is the focal
point of the whole work. It is markedly different from the rest of the
piece, which gives it added emphasis.
Could it be that Norman personally related to the idea of the flawed
hero? He certainly seems to at the end, where he is so deluded that he
thinks that not swatting a fly is a sign of his moral superiority. His
motivation for killing his mother and the other girls seems to be based
on a "mission" to protect the world and himself from moral decay. It
wouldn't stretch credibility to think that he may have had a Napoleonic
complex.
Just my 2 cents.
In article <84qqcf$j7d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
muf...@labyrinth.net.au wrote:
> Ken Mogg (author, 'The Alfred Hitchcock Story', the uncut UK edition -
I
> disown the shortened and 'simplified' US edition).
> http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~muffin
Iksnamhcok
>>told me that he was told by his producer Hilton Green, who was Assistant
>>Director on PSYCHO, that the numberplate on Marion's car which goes into
>>the swamp was off his (Hilton's) own car.
Hearsay.
>>
>>At NYU in October, screenwriter Joseph Stefano denied any knowledge that
>>the NFB numberplate had any significance in terms of the letters used.
>>
>I guess that says it.
>
Stefano didn't dictate EVERYTHING that went in that movie.
Remember the "Paul is dead" business? The Beatles and everyone around them
steadfastly denied they planted the "clues." But take a look at those album
covers. They (or someone) obviously DID plant the clues.
You can easily speculate on why. The Beatles read some of those goofy rumors
that often spread among teen idols' fans. "Paul died in a motorcycle crash!"
(When I was in high school, I knew a group of girls who swore that Cat Stevens
had died. Cat Stevens!) The Beatles, in their drugged stupor, probably said,
"Hey, let's mess with people's minds. Let's see if anyone notices. Fun!"
Bill Warren
>>>As more than once reported here, director Richard Franklin (PSYCHO II)
>>>told me that he was told by his producer Hilton Green, who was Assistant
>>>Director on PSYCHO, that the numberplate on Marion's car which goes into
>>>the swamp was off his (Hilton's) own car.
>
>Hearsay.
The Assistant Director would have been responsible for getting phony plates
attached to the car. You consider HIS word less likely than the speculation of
Robin Wood, who wasn't there?
Johnn...@webtv.net
to imply erotica. Perhaps a loophole for the sake of the sensors.
Consider Norman's name.....Even Hitchcock used to refer to him on the
set as "master" Bates.
Regards....Jon
Shtimsdrow
>I think the "Eroica" has nothing to do with the music. It is
>to imply erotica.
Except that "Eroica" means "heroic," not "erotic."
-----------------------------------------------------
Richard Keith Carson
Johnn...@webtv.net
mind want's to read. How many know eroica means heroic....and who could
care......and how would that apply to Norman ? Most people....whether
they would admit it or not, are continually thinking about sex.....they
naturally would see it even if it wasn't accurately written.
Regards...Jon
Shtimsdrow
>they
>naturally would see it even if it wasn't accurately written.
I'm not dismissing this notion entirely. It's certainly possible
that that went through Hitchcock's mind as a secondary
consideration--"If the viewer misreads the word as
"erotica," so much the better"--but I doubt that this was his
*primary* motivation, as you seem to be saying. If you do
know that the Eroica Symphony is about Napoleon, then
that knowledge gets in the way and muddies the meaning.
It's too much of a gamble, unless there are other reasons
for the choice. I don't think Hitchcock would have based a
decision solely on the assumption that the viewer was
ignorant. He wanted his films to appeal to everybody, not
just to dummies.
-----------------------------------------------------
Richard Keith Carson
Bill Warren
covered a wide range, but he ws solitary.
jiggs
but Donald Spoto in THE ART OF ALFRED HITCHCOCK at page 326
states: "The triumph of he kingdom of death: it's all
there in the Eroica symphony in Norman's room, that work
that mocks the funeral march and questions Napoleon's
deadly exploits." I believe that Beethoven's intent when
he first started writing this was to dedicate it to
Napoleon and perhaps even to name it for him. But he
became so disenchanted with Napoleon that he changed it
simply to Eroica, to a Hero (in the manner of "the unknown
soldier") It may be Norman's own perception of his
misdeeds as heroism or triumph over whatever.
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bbe...@lphs.org
> On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 12:54:38 +0100, Per-Erik Skramstad
> <pers...@online.no> wrote:
>
> >Irish Boxer wrote:
> >>
> >> Ok,
> >> In Psycho (1960), at the end of the movie when Vera Miles is searching
> >> through the house, she enters Norman's room and she looks at his
> >> record player and in it is "Eroica". The camera stays on this for
> >> about 3-4 seconds then goes away. My question is, what does this
> >> symbolise?
> >
> >Hitchcock would never focus on an item like this without wanting it to
> >symbolize something.
> Ok, I'll bite. If what you say is true, and I'm not disputing it, what
> did the license plate imply since it received the same focus?