Le Mepris (Contempt)
Santos L. Halper
I just saw Godard's *Le Mepris* last night and noticed some striking
similarities to *Mulholland Dr.* Most specfically the last word spoken
in the film being *Silencio*.
Not being great at original thought, I thought I'd ask the group for any
impressions they may have taken from this.
Thanks.
Trichome
"Santos L. Halper" <san...@snpp.com> wrote:
> Forgive me if this has been discussed here before.
>
> I just saw Godard's *Le Mepris* last night and noticed some striking
> similarities to *Mulholland Dr.* Most specfically the last word spoken
> in the film being *Silencio*.
There's a lot more, as you will see below. The shadows of the couples
dancing on stage was obviously a major image source for the
Jitterbugging in MD.
> Not being great at original thought, I thought I'd ask the group for any
> impressions they may have taken from this.
>
> Thanks.
That's a search for <mepris> in ATTP and AMD-L.
Trichome
--
Texts available: Grandmother, EM, Eraserhead FAQ, Dune, WaH;
TP:episode guide, timeline, allusions, symbols, Log Lady intros,
Laura's Secret Diary, Cooper's autobioy, On the Air, LH, MD pilot.
http://www.misleader.org/ - follow W.'s Daily Lies
Santos L. Halper
Trichome <tric...@verizon.net> wrote:
Thanks once again Trichome.
I knew I bookmarked Le Mepris as a *must see* for a reason.
doug
Santos L. Halper wrote:
Godard films rule! His last feature, 'In Praise of Love', is beautifully
abstract, mysterious, enigmatic(for me) and high art. Lynch and Godard
influence each other. The commentary with Le Mepris DVD is excellent.
There are also sections from Antonioni's 'L'Avventura' that are referenced
by Lynch's Mulholland Drive. Another major film connected to MD is
Hitchcock's 'Vertigo'. Are you serious about studying Lynch and his
work? Of course you are. You should collect these DVDs for multiple
viewings:
Le Mepris
L'Avventura
Vertigo
Sunset Boulevard
All Godard films, ie My Life To Live, Alphaville, first name: Carmen,
Band Of Outsiders etc. etc.
Gilda
Clive Barker's early 'Hellraiser' flicks
By the way, the Coen's recent 'Intolerable Cruelty' made a funny
reference to MD's opening tragic 'joy ride' that creates the accident
involving Camilla. -doug
Mikko Pihkoluoma
>
>
> Santos L. Halper wrote:
>
> > Forgive me if this has been discussed here before.
> >
> > I just saw Godard's *Le Mepris* last night and noticed some striking
> > similarities to *Mulholland Dr.* Most specfically the last word spoken
> > in the film being *Silencio*.
> >
> > Not being great at original thought, I thought I'd ask the group for any
> > impressions they may have taken from this.
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> Godard films rule! His last feature, 'In Praise of Love', is beautifully
> abstract, mysterious, enigmatic(for me) and high art.
Wholeheartedly agreed.
> Lynch and Godard
> influence each other. The commentary with Le Mepris DVD is excellent.
> There are also sections from Antonioni's 'L'Avventura' that are referenced
> by Lynch's Mulholland Drive. Another major film connected to MD is
> Hitchcock's 'Vertigo'.
The influence of those two films can be seen all over Lynch's films, not
just MD...
> Are you serious about studying Lynch and his
> work? Of course you are. You should collect these DVDs for multiple
> viewings:
>
> Le Mepris
> L'Avventura
> Vertigo
> Sunset Boulevard
> All Godard films, ie My Life To Live, Alphaville, first name: Carmen,
> Band Of Outsiders etc. etc.
> Gilda
Nice list, although Bergman is more of an influence to Lynch than Godard.
> Clive Barker's early 'Hellraiser' flicks
?!?
> By the way, the Coen's recent 'Intolerable Cruelty' made a funny
> reference to MD's opening tragic 'joy ride' that creates the accident
> involving Camilla. -doug
Really? Sounds like you've been watching MD too much...
--
mikko dot pihkoluoma at welho dot com
"Red wine and sleeping pills
Help me get back to your arms
Cheap sex and sad films
Help me get where I belong
I think you're crazy, maybe
I think you're crazy, maybe
Stop sending letters
Letters always get burned
It's not like the movies
They fed us on little white lies
I think you're crazy, maybe
I think you're crazy, maybe
I will see you in the next life"
doug
viewings total. Bergman? I've got Wild Strawberries, which is great, and
also The Seventh Seal. What should I get next?
By the way, I mention Hellraiser, because of the blue box, an obvious reference,
and because of the way the camera is used to heighten a feeling of
suspense and horror. POV shots in hallways, etc. -doug
Mikko Pihkoluoma
> Mikko Pihkoluoma wrote:
> > "doug" wrote...
> >>reference to MD's opening tragic 'joy ride' that creates the accident
> >>involving Camilla. -doug
> >
> >
> > Really? Sounds like you've been watching MD too much...
> >
> >
> Not really. I've seen MD maybe once this year. So, that's about eight
> viewings total. Bergman? I've got Wild Strawberries, which is great, and
> also The Seventh Seal. What should I get next?
Definitely 'Persona'. MD all over...
If you're just interested in exploring Bergman more, then I recommend at
least 'Winter Light' and 'Cries and Whispers'.
> By the way, I mention Hellraiser, because of the blue box, an obvious
reference,
> and because of the way the camera is used to heighten a feeling of
> suspense and horror. POV shots in hallways, etc. -doug
Ohkay.
Mikko
jt
<fak...@welho.com> wrote:
> > >
> > Not really. I've seen MD maybe once this year. So, that's about eight
> > viewings total. Bergman? I've got Wild Strawberries, which is great, and
> > also The Seventh Seal. What should I get next?
Try Sawdust and Tinsel, the Magician, and Monika.
l'individuo
>> doug wrote:
> > By the way, the Coen's recent 'Intolerable Cruelty' made a funny
> > reference to MD's opening tragic 'joy ride' that creates the accident
> > involving Camilla. -doug
>
> Really? Sounds like you've been watching MD too much...
I agree. Coen's movie has an intertextual reference to "Mulholland Drive".
They kind of take joke of Lynch in that poor movie. Rex looks like Lynch;
the scene in which this character joyrides on some Mulholland Drive-sque
road is explicit.
l'individuo.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
"Solo nel doppio regno /
le voci divengono /
eterne e dolci."
(Rainer Maria Rilke, I sonetti a Orfeo)
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
l'individuo
> Not really. I've seen MD maybe once this year. So, that's about eight
> viewings total. Bergman? I've got Wild Strawberries, which is great, and
> also The Seventh Seal. What should I get next?
Think about "The Seventh Seal"'s character which impersonates 'the death'.
He has no eyebrows like Mystery Man's character in "Lost Highway".
"There're not such things as bad coincidences" (as the two detectives say in
the movie).
Mikko Pihkoluoma
> "Mikko Pihkoluoma" ha scritto nel messaggio
>>> doug wrote:
>> > By the way, the Coen's recent 'Intolerable Cruelty' made a funny
>> > reference to MD's opening tragic 'joy ride' that creates the accident
>> > involving Camilla. -doug
>>
>> Really? Sounds like you've been watching MD too much...
>
> I agree. Coen's movie has an intertextual reference to "Mulholland Drive".
> They kind of take joke of Lynch in that poor movie. Rex looks like Lynch;
No he doesn't.
> the scene in which this character joyrides on some Mulholland Drive-sque
> road is explicit.
I really don't think so at all... One might just as well say that it's a
direct reference to 'The Limey'.
Mikko
l'individuo
> > I agree. Coen's movie has an intertextual reference to "Mulholland
Drive".
> > They kind of take joke of Lynch in that poor movie. Rex looks like
Lynch;
>
> No he doesn't.
Well, my opinion is different. I don't say they're dead ringers but Rex has
even a 'Lynchian' hairstyle.
> > the scene in which this character joyrides on some Mulholland Drive-sque
> > road is explicit.
>
> I really don't think so at all... One might just as well say that it's a
> direct reference to 'The Limey'.
A black Limo that follows a convertible. People screaming. A similar
atmosphere. Watch it again and then think about Coen Brothers' intertextual
plays (it's theirs trademark). Even Rex that dies watching a movie which
resembles an old Lumière's movie (one of the first movie made in movie's
history) is not a choice made at random. It has a subtle meaning. Every
movie written and directed by Lynch contains hundreds of intertextual plays
and Lynch's belief in the 'magic' of movies is, maybe, too naive in Coen
Brothers' point of view (I got to think this is the reason for their
explicit joke).
World is an interesting place because people don't think the same.
These are my arguments. I'm waiting yours.
Mikko Pihkoluoma
> "Mikko Pihkoluoma" ha scritto nel messaggio
> > l'individuo wrote:
> > > I agree. Coen's movie has an intertextual reference to "Mulholland
> Drive".
> > > They kind of take joke of Lynch in that poor movie. Rex looks like
> Lynch;
> >
> > No he doesn't.
>
> Well, my opinion is different. I don't say they're dead ringers but Rex
has
> even a 'Lynchian' hairstyle.
I knew you would go for that (which is stretching out A LOT), but I just
can't see any connection between Rex and Lynch, neither physical nor
behavioural resemblence.
I don't think Coens have ever made fun of any filmmaker in their films...
All of the references --whether or not they're humorous-- are made because
of admiration.
> > > the scene in which this character joyrides on some Mulholland
Drive-sque
> > > road is explicit.
> >
> > I really don't think so at all... One might just as well say that it's a
> > direct reference to 'The Limey'.
>
> A black Limo that follows a convertible. People screaming. A similar
> atmosphere. Watch it again and then think about Coen Brothers'
intertextual
> plays (it's theirs trademark).
Okay, you might have point with that... It seems likely that that is a
reference. Although I don't get the mood at all because it takes place in
broad daylight.
> Even Rex that dies watching a movie which
> resembles an old Lumière's movie (one of the first movie made in movie's
> history) is not a choice made at random. It has a subtle meaning. Every
> movie written and directed by Lynch contains hundreds of intertextual
plays
> and Lynch's belief in the 'magic' of movies is, maybe, too naive in Coen
> Brothers' point of view (I got to think this is the reason for their
> explicit joke).
I think you are *clearly* wrong.
You need to show a consistency within Coens work; that they have a way with
including filmmakers as characters in their films, which I don't think I've
ever seen.
> World is an interesting place because people don't think the same.
Sure.
But I've been there myself... stretching out connections between the things
I'm preoccupied with. I'm sure most people do that, but that's usually only
because they don't have broad enough horizons...
--
mikko dot pihkoluoma at welho dot com
"In the end, we all are who we are, no matter
how much we may appear to have changed."
jt
> Think about "The Seventh Seal"'s character which impersonates 'the death'.
> He has no eyebrows like Mystery Man's character in "Lost Highway".
> "There're not such things as bad coincidences" (as the two detectives say in
> the movie).
Yeah, the chick in the Thompson Twins had no eyebrows either.
Draw your own conclusions.
l'individuo
> Yeah, the chick in the Thompson Twins had no eyebrows either.
>
> Draw your own conclusions.
Yeah, I'm having fun.
About this chick:
a) Does she wear white make-up?
b) Does she dress in black?
c) Is she scary enough?
I'm not saying Mystery Man represents 'the death' - because I think that
Mystery Man represents Mystery Man (a tautological point of view I must
admit), it stands for a "mysterious function" in the economy of "Lost
Highway"'s narration - but his 'look' resembles "The Seventh Seal"'s
character that represents 'the death'. This is my opinion. I can be wrong
but you should try to demonstrate it with a logical set of observations.
Also 'the cowboy' in "Mulholland Drive" has no eyebrows. Is this particular
meanigful? I just don't know.
l'individuo
> I knew you would go for that (which is stretching out A LOT), but I just
> can't see any connection between Rex and Lynch, neither physical nor
> behavioural resemblence.
In Hollywood to make fun of Lynch is a kind of sport. I read in "LA Weekly"
(in August) that Martin Short was writing a movie in which there would have
been a character that was a parody of the director (I can't remember if
Short was the one to play this character or not).Dicillo makes fun of Lynch
in "Living in Oblivion" (the 'dwarf sequence' the one in which they talk
about dreaming a dwarf).
I'm not saying that Rex is Lynch or that it stands for an allegorical parody
of the director's behavior or lifestyle. I just think that a bell played
when I saw that movie and I think that this bell has 'soundness'.
> I don't think Coens have ever made fun of any filmmaker in their films...
> All of the references --whether or not they're humorous-- are made because
> of admiration.
It doesn't make sense that Coen Brothers must have made fun out of a movie
director at least once in their filmographies to show that this could be an
intertextual clue. This could be the first time they do it.
Anyway in "Barton Fink" two characters (Barton Fink and W.P. Mayhew) are
molded in the shape of two famous American writers of the period in which
the movie is set (Clifford Odets and William Faulkner). Many film critics
observed this thing.
> Okay, you might have point with that... It seems likely that that is a
> reference. Although I don't get the mood at all because it takes place in
> broad daylight.
In broad daylight? Well, it was night or, at least, sunset.
> > Even Rex that dies watching a movie which
> > resembles an old Lumière's movie (one of the first movie made in movie's
> > history) is not a choice made at random. It has a subtle meaning. Every
> > movie written and directed by Lynch contains hundreds of intertextual
> plays
> > and Lynch's belief in the 'magic' of movies is, maybe, too naive in Coen
> > Brothers' point of view (I got to think this is the reason for their
> > explicit joke).
>
> I think you are *clearly* wrong.
The Lumière movie is about a train that enters in a station. The movie
resembles the one we see in Rex's bedroom. Rex has a bed that looks like a a
train and on it is written "Santa Fe Train" (Santa Fe means Holy Belief) - I
can't remember where exactly.
> You need to show a consistency within Coens work; that they have a way
with
> including filmmakers as characters in their films, which I don't think
I've
> ever seen.
Again, take a look at "Barton Fink" and this is a movie about Hollywood in
the 40s.
Jack Lipnick, the president of the studio (Capitol Pictures) for which Fink
works is a parody of two or three famous Hollywood's tycoons of that period.
> > World is an interesting place because people don't think the same.
>
> Sure.
>
> But I've been there myself... stretching out connections between the
things
> I'm preoccupied with. I'm sure most people do that, but that's usually
only
> because they don't have broad enough horizons...
I wrote that crap because I don't like people who just write "No, it
doesn't" or "No, he doesn't" without any explanations. This is kind of
fascist, you know?
I'm there in the same world stretching out connections. I read a lot and I
love movies.
I think "Intolerable Cruelty" is the worst Coen Brothers' movie ever made
and I love Lynch's movies.
Mikko Pihkoluoma
> "Mikko Pihkoluoma" wrote
> > I knew you would go for that (which is stretching out A LOT), but I just
> > can't see any connection between Rex and Lynch, neither physical nor
> > behavioural resemblence.
>
> In Hollywood to make fun of Lynch is a kind of sport. I read in "LA
Weekly"
> (in August) that Martin Short was writing a movie in which there would
have
> been a character that was a parody of the director (I can't remember if
> Short was the one to play this character or not).Dicillo makes fun of
Lynch
> in "Living in Oblivion" (the 'dwarf sequence' the one in which they talk
> about dreaming a dwarf).
> I'm not saying that Rex is Lynch or that it stands for an allegorical
parody
> of the director's behavior or lifestyle. I just think that a bell played
> when I saw that movie and I think that this bell has 'soundness'.
Why?
> > I don't think Coens have ever made fun of any filmmaker in their
films...
> > All of the references --whether or not they're humorous-- are made
because
> > of admiration.
>
> It doesn't make sense that Coen Brothers must have made fun out of a movie
> director at least once in their filmographies to show that this could be
an
> intertextual clue. This could be the first time they do it.
No, that sounds *extremely* unlikely. I don't even think they would have the
guts to make fun of people who are still alive and working...
If that ride is a reference, it's not there because they think Lynch is an
emperor without clothes. Simply because I don't think you've brought any
convincing evidence that it is and because as an idea it sounds absurd.
> Anyway in "Barton Fink" two characters (Barton Fink and W.P. Mayhew) are
> molded in the shape of two famous American writers of the period in which
> the movie is set (Clifford Odets and William Faulkner). Many film critics
> observed this thing.
I have not seen 'Barton Fink'.
(I should buy it on dvd, I know...)
> > > Even Rex that dies watching a movie which
> > > resembles an old Lumière's movie (one of the first movie made in
movie's
> > > history) is not a choice made at random. It has a subtle meaning.
Every
> > > movie written and directed by Lynch contains hundreds of intertextual
> > plays
> > > and Lynch's belief in the 'magic' of movies is, maybe, too naive in
Coen
> > > Brothers' point of view (I got to think this is the reason for their
> > > explicit joke).
> >
> > I think you are *clearly* wrong.
>
> The Lumière movie is about a train that enters in a station. The movie
> resembles the one we see in Rex's bedroom. Rex has a bed that looks like a
a
> train and on it is written "Santa Fe Train" (Santa Fe means Holy Belief) -
I
> can't remember where exactly.
I didn't disagree about Arrival at the Train Station (or a "parody" of the
Lumiere film) being in that scene. I disagree with your hypothethical theory
that this somehow connects to Lynch... ...and this would also imply that
they make fun of Lumiere which I think couldn't be further away from the
truth.
Why on earth would the Coens have ever developed such an encyclopedic
knowledge on film just to make fun of other people who make postmodernist
films?
> > You need to show a consistency within Coens work; that they have a way
> with
> > including filmmakers as characters in their films, which I don't think
> I've
> > ever seen.
>
> Again, take a look at "Barton Fink" and this is a movie about Hollywood in
> the 40s.
> Jack Lipnick, the president of the studio (Capitol Pictures) for which
Fink
> works is a parody of two or three famous Hollywood's tycoons of that
period.
President of a studio is someone you make fun of... Artists like the Coens
do not have any reason to make fun of artist like Lynch. It's as simple as
that.
> > > World is an interesting place because people don't think the same.
> >
> > Sure.
> >
> > But I've been there myself... stretching out connections between the
> things
> > I'm preoccupied with. I'm sure most people do that, but that's usually
> only
> > because they don't have broad enough horizons...
>
> I wrote that crap because I don't like people who just write "No, it
> doesn't" or "No, he doesn't" without any explanations. This is kind of
> fascist, you know?
> I'm there in the same world stretching out connections. I read a lot and I
> love movies.
> I think "Intolerable Cruelty" is the worst Coen Brothers' movie ever made
> and I love Lynch's movies.
I understand this, but it seems you take the Coen-kitsch a tad too
seriously...
Mikko
somaBoy MX
: Every
: movie written and directed by Lynch contains hundreds of intertextual
plays
: and Lynch's belief in the 'magic' of movies is, maybe, too naive in Coen
: Brothers' point of view (I got to think this is the reason for their
: explicit joke).
"Intertextuality" is an expensive word for "plagiarism".
Anyhow, I don't think the Coens or Lynch are trying to quote their
contemporaries. They're merely looking for stereotypical ways of
representing certain things.
You should give them more credit than Tarantino.
.soma
doug
Hey, they hung out together at the Oscars. They appreciate
each others work. -doug
doug
> "l'individuo" wrote...
>
>>"Mikko Pihkoluoma" ha scritto nel messaggio
>>
>>>l'individuo wrote:
>>>
>>>>I agree. Coen's movie has an intertextual reference to "Mulholland
>>
>>Drive".
>>
>>>>They kind of take joke of Lynch in that poor movie. Rex looks like
>>
>>Lynch;
>>
>>>No he doesn't.
>>
>>Well, my opinion is different. I don't say they're dead ringers but Rex
>
> has
>
>>even a 'Lynchian' hairstyle.
>
>
> I knew you would go for that (which is stretching out A LOT), but I just
> can't see any connection between Rex and Lynch, neither physical nor
> behavioural resemblence.
>
> I don't think Coens have ever made fun of any filmmaker in their films...
> All of the references --whether or not they're humorous-- are made because
> of admiration.
>
The reference has an element of humor and it's also homage. -doug