Eclair, Arri, or CP16?
James
had a chance in their career to use an Arri 16S/ST, Eclair (ACL or NPR),
and CP16 and can point out some pros and cons of each, or any for that
matter? Obviously there are tons of parts, etc. out there for the Arri, but
I heard they are a little on the loud side (without a blimp). I also heard
(in this group possibly) of the Eclairs having magazine problems, but being
relatively quiet. And the CP16 is extremely rugged and will last forever.
Any opinions, links to sites, or points to other threads that might have
somewhat of a comparison of these would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
James
David Joachim
>From: "James" ocula...@yahoo.com
>Date: 3/16/01 8:21 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <tb5irhp...@corp.supernews.com>
cinematographers I've known who shot documentaries and 16mm feature films shot
with and had high praise for the Eclair NPR (though many complain of difficulty
loading the magazines). The CP-16 is indeed a workhorse you'll still see from
time to time used for commercials or documentaries. Its magazines are easy to
load and a well maintained one will run quietly enough for good double system
sound work. The CP's father, Ed DiGiulio made one special order for an NBC
miniseries a couple of decades ago that was quieter than an Eclair. But the
off-the-shelf versions weren't quite that quiet.
David Joachim
Robert Morein
"James" <ocula...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tb5irhp...@corp.supernews.com...
"James" <ocula...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tb5irhp...@corp.supernews.com...
The Arri S and ST are not simply a little loud -- they are not sound sync
cameras without Tobin motors, and even then they sound like food blenders.
NPR: Very versatile; can be modified to convert between 16 and S-16 in the
field, in just a few seconds.
Has a variable shutter angle, a rare feature. Can be extremely quiet or
not-so-quiet, depending upon maintenance.
Accidental moving of the shutter lock can result in gear train damage.
Camera-motor coupling is defective in design, leading to subtle speed
changes and loss of sync if your coupling wears out and you don't notice it.
The NPR is a bitch to hand-hold. Only a very big person can do it for more
than a few minutes.
Weight around 22 lbs, and it does not sit on your shoulder.
The CP16 is a workhorse camera. Noise levels vary widely, depending upon the
condition.
Actually, you probably want the CP-16R, which is the reflex version.
The ACL is my dream camera, but I think it's only fair to mention that for
others it is the camera from Hell.
The problem seems to be that it suffered from engineering deficiencies when
the design was stretched to handle 400' magazines. Over a decade of
production, the company grappled to fix these problems, as the company was
actually sold and moved from France to England and back to France. So there
are "good" ACLs, and bad ones.
There are so many different configurations of the ACL, with people using
different nomenclature for each, that it would be hard to list them all.
Things to look for:
1. French parts, at least the magazines
2. quiet operation -- be sure to load expired film or leader on cores for
the test.
3. heavy duty multispeed motor.
4. orientable viewfinder
The ACL has the most versatile mount system of any camera. The mount
assembly itself unscrews from the camera body via a large exterior thread,
and can be customized for almost any application. The camera body also
contains a "C" mount thread.
Optical Electro-House in LA is the primary service facility. George and John
were the Eclair reps in LA. Now they actually can make parts for the camera.
Their number is (310) 204-6577.
Tell them I sent you.
Incidentally, when Eclair went under, the engineers resurfaced with a new
company in a different city a few months later. The name of the company:
Aaton.
"David Joachim" <news...@aol.com> wrote in message > >
> I've worked with the Arri BL and quite a bit with the CP-16. Most of the
> cinematographers I've known who shot documentaries and 16mm feature films
shot
> with and had high praise for the Eclair NPR (though many complain of
difficulty
> loading the magazines). The CP-16 is indeed a workhorse you'll still see
from
> time to time used for commercials or documentaries. Its magazines are easy
to
> load and a well maintained one will run quietly enough for good double
system
> sound work. The CP's father, Ed DiGiulio made one special order for an NBC
> miniseries a couple of decades ago that was quieter than an Eclair. But
the
> off-the-shelf versions weren't quite that quiet.
>
> David Joachim
I've heard that the result of a Whitehouse overhaul is a very quiet CP.
Personally, I find the Eclair magazines a breeze to load.
The old English ACL magazines would fail, and the loaders might have blamed
themselves, but it wasn't really their fault.
If an ACL jams, you'll have to fix the loop in a changing bag.
If the CP jams, you can open up the camera door and fix it in daylight.
If you want to switch film stocks in the middle, you can do it with an
ACL -- the magazines are instant-change, but with a CP, you have to finish
out the roll, because the loop is in the camera body and can't be
extricated.
The registration of the ACL is thought by many to be as good as the Arri. In
fact, with the current problem discovered in the SR series of film weave
complicating HD transfers, it may actually be better. I don't think the CP
registration will be as good, because the gate friction is much lower, the
rails are shorter, and it doesn't have the spring loaded side rail.
The other thing is, the ACL is the smallest, lightest sync-sound 16mm camera
ever made, with the recent exception of the Aaton A-Minima, which is not
really a general purpose camera. The height of the magazine ears of the CP
hamper use in cars and near ceilings.
James
an ACL French mag from the English one?
James
Alex Ryle & Pam Bray
The 400' acl mags have the country of origin stamped into the throat - "made
in England" or whatever. But you should be more concerned about the motor -
that'll be the thing on the top of your list.
I run an ACL (super16), and a CP16R (16mm), and have owned sn ST in the
past, so here's my comments;
ACL
Great camera, very quiet. Loading is fairly easy, and the mags are quick
change. Well designed, similar to the Aaton LTR (made by the same people).
Lightweight and crystal locked. Accepts mount adapters for most lenses, but
try to get them with the kit, as they are *very* pricey individually.
Problems; the older single speed motor (which I have) was only designed to
run 200ft mags. 400ft mags were only produced after loads of cameramen
complained about the short run time of the smaller rolls. The older motor
can drive an English 400' mag, but NOT the French one. The French 400' mag,
which is a much better design and doesn't jam as easily, needs a lot more
torque, and you will burn out the little motor using it. Hence, the ACL1
and ACL2. Thing is, you can chop and change bits from one to the other, so
you get a lot of cross breeds.
ACL1 - single speed motor, non-orientable finder, will accept English 400'
mags.
ACL2- varispeed "Multiduty" motor - any mags accepted, orientable finder.
The ACL is a great camera once you get used to it. Cheap to convert to
super16 also.
The CP16
A nice camera, MAGS are easy to load, but the camera is almost as difficult
as the Panaflex IMHO. There's a lot of threading to be done inside the
camera, and it's easy to get it wrong. It takes quite a bit of time to get
the hang of.
Reasonably quiet, around the same as an average BL - so you may need to
blimp with blankets etc (depeding on age and condition of the camera). This
is not an attractive beast. A box with a lens. Having said that, it's
function. Problem; the CP mount - I've only ever seen 12-120 Ang zooms for
this camera (maybe someone else knows a bit more) - mine has a Canon stills
mount on it so it's easy to swap lenses.
Does sound on film, but that's useless now as you can't get the stock
anyway. Don't know if you can convert to super16 - I've never seen one.
The ST
Very noisy, but very steady (pin registered). Good selection of lenses
available. Most useful with the varispeed motor as a B cam or wild unit.
Pickups and whatnot. Apparently, Rodriguez shot El Mariachi with it, which
must have been a mission. Avoid it if you're planning on doing any sound.
the one I used to have had a pilottone output for a Nagra, but you'd need to
be 1/2mile away from the mic not to pick up the racket. Clive Tobin's motor
is VERY good, but doesn't solve the noise problem. You'll end up with a
camera that's cost you more than an older acl or something, but makes tons
of noise. Cannot be converted to super16.
If anyone else has comments, or wants to point out ignorant errors please
feel free!
Hope this helps - best regards and good luck
Alex Ryle
_______________________
Alex Ryle - Film Cameraman
Professional Low Budget Film Solutions
16mm & Super16 Kits, Lighting & Grip
http://members.tripod.co.uk/alexryle/home.htm
Jack Onate
.
Hi everyone.
On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 13:12:58 -0000, "Alex Ryle & Pam Bray"
<u...@alexandpam.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Hi James
>
>The 400' acl mags have the country of origin stamped into the throat - "made
>in England" or whatever. But you should be more concerned about the motor -
>that'll be the thing on the top of your list.
>
>I run an ACL (super16), and a CP16R (16mm), and have owned sn ST in the
>past, so here's my comments;
Alex, I am curious, do you see a difference in registration between
the ACL and CP for TV work ?
>
>ACL
>
>Great camera, very quiet. Loading is fairly easy, and the mags are quick
>change. Well designed, similar to the Aaton LTR (made by the same people).
>The ACL is a great camera once you get used to it. Cheap to convert to
>super16 also.
... ACL stuff deleted
>
>The CP16
>
>A nice camera, MAGS are easy to load, but the camera is almost as difficult
>as the Panaflex IMHO. There's a lot of threading to be done inside the
>camera, and it's easy to get it wrong. It takes quite a bit of time to get
>the hang of.
>Reasonably quiet, around the same as an average BL - so you may need to
>blimp with blankets etc (depeding on age and condition of the camera). This
>is not an attractive beast. A box with a lens. Having said that, it's
>function. Problem; the CP mount - I've only ever seen 12-120 Ang zooms for
>this camera (maybe someone else knows a bit more) - mine has a Canon stills
There are alot of the old Ang zooms floating around with CP mount,
including the 9-57. For primes there are the CP Ultra T series and
ofcourse there are adpaters available for Arri B, Arri std, Nikon F
and Hasselblad lenses. I have the Arri adapters and they work fine.
>mount on it so it's easy to swap lenses.
>Does sound on film, but that's useless now as you can't get the stock
>anyway. Don't know if you can convert to super16 - I've never seen one.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Its been done. never seen one up close though, or footage from one.
I believe I saw one recently in "In-Sync" for around $7000 I think
(personally I'd rather put that amount of money toward an LTR).
>
>The ST
(To James)
You really shouldn't be comparing this camera with the others. The
Arri S is a MOS camera. Most people compare the Arri BL to the Eclairs
and CP not the S. In my opinion the biggest draw back with the BL
is the lens blimps, followed by the poor hand-holdable qualities. On
the plus side you have the great Arri movement and quality. I believe
this is another of those "its impossible / not worth converting"
cameras, for super 16.
Cheers.