2004 650 VStar Classic Won't Start
Mack the Knife
did for the first 3 years I owned it. The starter didn't turn over as
authoritatively, but it did start after a few turns of the crank. At
the end of this past summer, in which I rode it very little, the bike
now won't start up at all with the starter. You can push start it to
get it going but it takes a number of tries down a long hill to
accomplish it. The last time I did that, I went about a mile down
this friggin' hill before it started up, and then only after I'd
opened the throttle up all the way. The odd thing is, once the bike
is running and warm, it will start up using the starter motor without
a problem.
When I first began experiencing the initial hints of the
developing problem a couple of years ago, I called the Yamaha dealer
from which I bought the bike. The mechanic there told me he suspected
I needed a new battery because batteries don't last long in the desert
heat (it gets up to 118 degrees here and is over 105 for months on
end). Once the starter simply wouldn't turn the engine over with any
authority at all and the bike wouldn't start up anymore, the batter
was the first thing I replaced. Oddly, the new one needed charging
straight from the dealer before I could use it in the bike, but once
charged for 2-3 hours, it seemed to work alright. Unfortunately, that
wasn't the problem.
I then thought it must be a fuel issue because of the long hot
summer and the fact that I hadn't put fuel into the bike for 2-3
months. Gasoline sitting in this kind of heat can turn to varnish in a
fairly short time. In fact, I'd already experienced the same "won't
start" problem with two other small engines left sitting here and the
carbeurator jets were clogged with varnish. Once cleaned, the engines
started up easily again. So I tried carb cleaner on the motorcycle,
but to no effect, then tore the bike down to the carbs, removed them,
and disassembled them. Everything inside the carbs was functioning
well and it was absolutely clean -- bummer! I reassembled the
carbs. I then checked the fuel pump/front coil assembly before
reassembling the fuel system and the front cylinder plug wire
practically dropped off the plug boot. That must be it, I thought,
feeling rather stupid for not finding it before tearing into the
machine to the extent I had. I pushed the plug wire back into the
pointed metal "spear" inside the boot and then turned it clockwise
until it gripped tightly onto the threads of the "spear." Sure
enough, once I'd put the coil/fuel pump assembly back onto the bike,
the carbs back onto the intake manifolds, the surge tank onto the
carbs (what a hassle) and the air cleaner back onto the surge tank,
cleaning up everything as I went and routing the many wires and
electrical connectors at the neck of the frame a little more sensibly
than the Yamaha assembler had done in building the bike, I started it
up without a problem. It still didn't fire right up like it did right
out of the shop but it started after only a turn or two of the
crank.
I thought I'd fixed the problem and took a long ride on it
without any difficulty arising. It ran fine. Unfortunately, a few
days later, when I tried to start the bike again, the same problem
remained. I just got through taking a closer look at the electrical
system after charging up the original battery, putting it in the bike,
and proceeding to charge the new battery. Everything looks fine. All
the connectors, diodes, relays, igniter, etc, are clean and appear to
be functioning correctly. Have I tested them all? No, I can't say I
have, not yet, anyway. Charging the old battery, I found out
immediately, made no difference. The starter turns over, yes, but not
as quickly as it ought to and certainly not authoritatively enough to
start the bike up. What a pain in the ass! Yup, it just might be the
starter motor, I figured, but you have to drain the oil and remove the
gas tank, blah blah blah, to check it out. It sounds like the other
tear downs I've already tried. BTW, when you turn over the engine
with the starter, it cuts out with a loud noise after a few turns.
If anyone has any ideas on what might be wrong with this infernal
machine, I'd like to hear it. The mechanic at the Yamaha dealer
characterized this bike as "bullet proof." What a load. Those guys
are so full of shit sometimes. Yes, these motorcycles are much more
complex than they used to be and you probably need to have to have all
sorts of diagnostic equipment and special tools to trace a problem to
its source without all this hit or miss nonsense, but "bullet
proof?" My asshole. I've had more than any bike's share of minor
problems with this motorcycle. It has never shifted easily, even
after the original clutch was replaced. I've always suspected that a
shifting fork may be slightly bent, not enough for the Yamaha folks to
know it, or at least to admit it,, but enough for me to know it. I've
changed the oil so many times to make it shift/run smoother, I can't
tell you. I've also had to adjust the valves about four times and the
bike only has 12,000 miles on it. Anytime you run this bike at all
hard, and by that I mean running it the way it ought to run normally,
the valves go out of adjustment, which is why I usually take things
very easy on it and just cruise around in no big hurry. It looks
brand new but has never run as well as it should. Frankly, I'm
beginning to think I got stuck with a lemon.
Billy
I've got a 2005 VStar 650 Classic that I stole for $3500 with 450
miles on it. It's not a lemon like yours sounds to be, I've put 10k
miles on it in the last 18 months with almost no problems. But, I
have had a trivial version of exactly what you're describing. When I
first got it the starter turned it over fast and it caught
immediately, but as time went on (I too, replaced the battery at one
point) the starter doesn't turn it over like it did at first.
That doesn't compare to your experience of running a mile downhill
without it kicking over; that hasn't happened to me. The starter
doesn't "rev" as high as it once did, but it does kick over and then
runs fine.
I can confirm that the valves need frequent adjustment (my mechanic
told me that this is characteristic of these bikes).
Sadly, I don't have an answer for you, but I thought you'd appreciate
some confirmation that you're not alone with some of the problems
you're experiencing.
- Billy
Mack the Knife
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for the commiseration. The last thing I tried was to check to
see if the plugs are even firing at all (first things last) and I saw
no evidence of spark in either one when removed from the engine,
placed back in the plug boot, then turning the engine over with the
starter. It goes along with the fact that you always get a gas smell
after trying to start it, as if it's flooding. That ought to tell
someone in the know something. Either I performed the spark test
wrong or something is seriously wrong with the electrical system. I
put the new battery back in, fully recharged, and tried it again but
problem persists. I checked the ground, by the way, because another
person suggested it on a VStar forum, and I know a loose or dirty
ground can cause all sorts of electrical problems -- I wire brushed it
and the place on the frame where it's bolted. I thought I noted a
small improvement in the way the starter sounds after that but not
enough to fix the main issue. To get to that ground (for future
reference, as it's not in the manual), you have to remove the rear
cylinder exhaust pipe and the rear portion of the front cylinder
exhaust pipe in order to access the plastic (chromed) cover underneath
them. When you take off that cover, you will see where the ground
wire comes down from the battery and attaches to the frame. It's good
to know because if you ever have the pipes off, it ought to be checked
and cleaned up just for maintenance's sake. So, I'm still at square
one with this thing. I should mention that when the bike is running
well, it seems like a pretty good motorcycle, especially when you can
run it for a long time in high gear without having to shift much. I'm
just not sure it is the bike for me in the final analysis. I put a
mid-sized windshield on it (an absolute must in the desert), a
driver's back rest, saddle bag supports and saddle bags, and even a
cruise control to rest the throttle hand (I seldom use it), all told,
about $1000 extra in accessories. I was seriously considering selling
the bike when this happened but it's been on the fritz for about a
month or more now. I don't have enough time of late to keep at it
until I find the problem and not enough money to pay some Yamaha
mechanic what they want. Hopefully I'll get a brain storm one of
these days when I'm on a roll and figure out what to do that will fix
it or just stumble across it by continuing the hit or miss method.
The one positive about it is I get a good lesson in how this thing is
built. It's sort of fun to do mechanics on because they have put
things together kind of nicely (with the Allen head bolts, and all)
but when you are trying to fix something that won't get fixed, it's
always aggravating. BTW, it does sound like you got a good price on
your VStar. This guy who looked at mine with intent to buy one said I
should be knocking off a $1000 per year since it was new, eve though
the bike looks like I bought it last year brand new and normally runs
like it's barely broken in. I told him he was nuts. It cost me
$6200, plus the thou in accessories, and that would mean I'd have to
sell it for $2200. In your dreams, buddy.
A. F. Cano
I have a 2000 Vstar 650. I had weird starting problems that manifested
themselves mostly in colder weather. Went through all kinds of tests
and finally stumbled on the solution: There are a couple of large (in
Amps) fuses under the seat, on the right side, under the plastic cover.
One of those was very loose, not making good contact. I wrapped the
terminals in aluminum foil paper for a snug fit and reinserted it.
Problem gone.
My symptoms were not only not starting, but sometimes in colder weather,
while running at random speeds, the engine would just die, like the
spark plugs were unplugged all of the sudden. On suck occasions,
kicking the right panel with your heel would cause enough of a vibration
that electrical continuity would be reestablished and the engine would
run again. It would be interesting if your problem is caused by the
same thing (loose fuses).
A.
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> It goes along with the fact that you always get a gas smell
> after trying to start it, as if it's flooding. That ought to tell
> someone in the know something.
This problem, whatever it is, is probably not electrical at all, it's
probably a carburetor problem, combined with a lack of understanding
of how constant vacuum carbs work.
Maybe you have a sticky/leaky float valve on one carb. I know that my
Yamaha FZR1000 has at least one sticky/leaky float valve because of
the backfires when I start the engine the first time in the spring and
also when roll off the throttle the first few rides of the year.
I live in an area where the temperature gets up to 100 degrees every
day for half the year, and the other half the year it's cold and foggy
and riding is no fun at all.
So my carbs plug up if I don't ride for a few months.
I add fuel stabilizer to the gasoline before storing the bike for the
winter and I also add about five ounces of Berryman B12 Choke and
Carburetor Cleaner to a full tank of gasoline every spring.
B12 contains solvents like acetone, toluene, methyl ethyl ketone and
xylene which dissolve gum and varnish quickly.
But I will often hear one or two really loud and scary backfires when
trying to start the engine for the first time. And I get the smell of
unburned gasoline, but nothing runs out the float bowl overflow hose.
(If a backfire actually causes the engine to rotate backwards a
fraction of a turn, this can jam up the starter clutch and that would
be a major disaster for my engine, because the starter clutch is
buried deep inside the engine and I would need to remove the engine
and split the crankcases to repair it. Your starter clutch is much
more accessible.)
Berryman B12 comes in both liquid and aerosol cans so it can either be
added to the fuel directly or used to clean out the jets and passage
directly.
Your carburetors probably have a small hole in the intake bellmouth,
and, if you
squirt B12 (or GumOut or STP or other clear carburetor cleaner) down
the smaller of the two holes, that will clean out the idle mixture
circuit.
The larger of the two holes in the intake is the "choke". Actually you
don't have a flat plate type choke like a car's carburetor used to
have.
The cold starting enrichener circuit has a little valve that allows
air to bypass the throttle butterfly and the air rushing through the
air passage sucks gasoline directly out of the float bowl.
When you start an engine that is equipped with a cold starting
enrichener, the drill is to move the "choke" lever or knob to the full
on position and leave the throttle twist grip alone and push the
starter button until the engine acts like it wants to start.
Then you can help the start by twisting the throttle grip a little
bit. What you're actually doing when you twist the throttle is adding
AIR to the excessively rich mixture, so it's not surprising that you
smell raw gasoline for that reason.
An old trick to starting a stubborn engine is to turn the master idle
speed control knob all the way counterclockwise until the throttle
butterflies are completely closed.
When you crank the engine with the electric starter you get MORE
engine vacuum to suck fuel through the idle jets and passages and
through the cold starting enrichener because the throttle butterflies
are fully closed.
Then, when the engine starts, you can twist the throttle and hold it
open until the engine warms up and then you can turn the master idle
knob clockwise to adjust the idle speed to normal.
There's another thing to understand about the smell of unburned
gasoline after starting.
The engine needs a rich fuel air ratio to start, and if the carbs are
plugged up (or a float valve is stuck shut) the affected cylinder will
only fire every eighth stroke (four turns of the crankshaft) instead
of every fourth stroke (two turns of the crank) and it will blow
unburned gasoline out the exhaust pipe.
beatyerbrainsout
Good info that I'll keep in mind. Unfortunately, as you will find in
the original post, I not only added carb cleaner early on but tore
down the carbs. They were absolutely clean. No varnish or plugging
at all and the floats appeared to move just fine. I was disappointed
to find that a float tang angle was not included in the manual for
proper adjustment of the float levels. This was always the way to
adjust float levels on various vehicles I've maintained in the past
but for this bike you need a special tool to measure the actual fuel
level, according to the manual I've got. The requirement of myriad
special tools to maintain this bike is a pain in the ass that I
consider a failing of this and other motorcycles of this type. It may
make the Yamaha mechanic happy, but not the owner. The bike appears
to me to be inordinately complicated in the way it was engineered,
hence, the potential for many different problems that are not easily
traced. Will keep trying, eventually will stumble upon the cause or
causes of the current problem, and will post them here. Thanks for
your help.
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> This was always the way to adjust float levels on various vehicles
> I've maintained in the past but for this bike you need a special tool to
> measure the actual fuel level, according to the manual I've got.
You can probably make a fuel level tool out of a piece of clear
plastic tubing and some kind of home made adapter that can be screw
into the float bowl drain
screw.
The recommended fuel level is probably around 1.0 ~ 1.5 mm below the
float bowl gasket surface.
> Will keep trying, eventually will stumble upon the cause or
> causes of the current problem, and will post them here. Thanks for
> your help.
Have you tried the old trick of turning the idle speed all the way
down? Just turn the master idle screw (or two idle speed screws if the
carbs aren't interconnected)
all the way counterclockwise to close the throttle butterflies and
make the engine vacuum high enough to suck fuel out of the float
bowls.
That old trick goes back to the days of British 500cc thumpers...
flybywire
cheers
Mike
"Mack the Knife" <bulldo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e7a45792-6ecb-41df...@p32g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
mandjustin44
http://www.bikerstation.com/yamaha/2004-650-VStar-Classic-Won-t-Start-3757-.htm
mandjustin44 wrote:
Did you ever find out what the starting problem was for your bike? My
2000 vstar is doing the same thing.
Mandy
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