Anybody lost even ONE Panhead to 20-50 or Mobil 1?
EJL63FLH
it..
I'm dying to hear of just what caused it to burn, or blow up.
Was it "Skating' rollers"?
Was it oil that accumulated in the heads and wouldn't flow down the
return passages causing the heads to overheat?
Was the oil "too thin" to get thrown onto the cylinder walls from the
flywheels?
Was it that the oil wasn't "Thick" enough to make it into the pinion
shaft, and out the crankpin holes?
Were the roller bearings "Flooded" with oil, causing them to heat up?
Was is that there wasn't enough "Oil Pressure"?
Did the flat cut gears overheat from the "light oil"?
I simply have to hear of just ONE instance to shut down the research
process on this.
I know this is just another "Oil String", in a way, but I haven't heard
this adressed in regard to Panheads and Slabside Shovels.
I'm now at the point where I finally believe that Harley Davidson means
what they say on the back of their ol products about the 20-50wt being
for ALL Air Cooled V-Twion Harley Davidson engines. It's pretty plain.
It *doesn't* exclude flatties, knucks, pans, shovels, or hand pumpers.
It could have if they wanted it to.
The early HD's that used Non Synthetic Rubber Tires, although "designed"
to run on them, or Biased Ply Tires took on synthetic rubber and
radials well enough.....
If what ALL the research about Mobil 1 is correct, and it would be hard
to make it all up, then there is no reason not to run it in the
aforementioned, as well.
Thanks for relaying your experience of burning up a panhead or other
Pre-Evo on 20-50wt or Mobil 1.
I needed something new.
I have a pile of superstition, tradition, and habit already...
--
EJL63FLH
63FLH 88"Stroker
78ChevPUCrankermobile
78 Ford GTE van
500CMX PLanter
You can Smart Yourself Dumb,
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?
There are only so many ways to fry pet food.
Joe Mama
> Here. Take a couple and pass the cooler around before tha
> bartender sees it..
A couple of what?
> I'm dying to hear of just what caused it to burn, or blow up.
Yeah, me too..
> Was it "Skating' rollers"?
Roller or ice skating?
> Was it oil that accumulated in the heads and wouldn't flow down the
> return passages causing the heads to overheat?
Why would this be any more or less possible in an engine that was using
multi-vis as compared to single weight oil?
> Was the oil "too thin" to get thrown onto the cylinder walls from the
> flywheels?
I've never heard of this happening either, unless maybe someone's
gonna be running WD-40 or penetrating oil..
> Was it that the oil wasn't "Thick" enough to make it into the pinion
> shaft, and out the crankpin holes?
Yeah right. That "thin" oil is so much harder to flow through the same
sized hole that thicker oil flows so freely through. If you can squirt catsup
through a squeeze bottle nozzle, then you can sure squirt water through
the same hole..
> Were the roller bearings "Flooded" with oil, causing them to heat up?
Overoiling = overheating? Since when?
> Was is that there wasn't enough "Oil Pressure"?
The first valid point that you've made here..
> Did the flat cut gears overheat from the "light oil"?
Since the outer edges of the teeth make no gear contact,
exactly how does one heat up any more than the other?
> I simply have to hear of just ONE instance to shut down the research
> process on this.
I think that you'd better quit while you're ahead..
> I know this is just another "Oil String", in a way, but I haven't heard
> this adressed in regard to Panheads and Slabside Shovels.
I haven't heard these particular issue addressed with *any* motors..
> I'm now at the point where I finally believe that Harley Davidson means
> what they say on the back of their ol products about the 20-50wt being
> for ALL Air Cooled V-Twion Harley Davidson engines. It's pretty plain.
> It *doesn't* exclude flatties, knucks, pans, shovels, or hand pumpers.
> It could have if they wanted it to.
I'm from the old school and I don't care what they say, I won't run multi-vis
oil in an early engine that runs hotter, particularly an iron or flathead. It
may say "20-50," but it sure looks an awful lot thinner when it's hot..
> The early HD's that used Non Synthetic Rubber Tires, although "designed"
> to run on them, or Biased Ply Tires took on synthetic rubber and
> radials well enough.....
The earlier machines were a lot lighter in weight and no doubt handle well
with radial and synthetic rubber tires, though I prefer the real thing..
> If what ALL the research about Mobil 1 is correct, and it would be hard
> to make it all up, then there is no reason not to run it in the
> aforementioned, as well.
Why is it so hard to "make it up." All the oil manufacturers have to do is
fund the research project with a grant and/or insure that select people on
their covert fund payroll are in key "board" positions of oversight and
they'll come up with whatever technical "findings" benefit the company..
The did it in California with the smog initiatives. I forget which "board" it
was that some Standard Oil executive's wife was chairman of, but after
repeated discoveries of poisoned water supples, it took years of citizen
action to counter and defeat the MTBE gas additive initiative that the oil
companies insisted "cleaned up the air" and was" harmless to humans."
Wanna talk about toothpaste and drinking water fluoridation?
Money talks..
> Thanks for relaying your experience of burning up a panhead or other
> Pre-Evo on 20-50wt or Mobil 1.
I've heard a few stories, but nothing confirmed for a fact..
> I needed something new.
Be patient. You may be surprised that it doesn't exist..
> I have a pile of superstition, tradition, and habit already...
Don't be so sure that it's all fairy tales, young fella..
> You can Smart Yourself Dumb,
It's called the "dumbing down" of America..
And it's happening..
> Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?
Most people won't believe the obvious because
it sounds too preposterous to be true, and they
don't care enough to investigate the evidence
and find out for sure..
> There are only so many ways to fry pet food.
I wouldn't know..
-jm
To return mail no spam, change the reply address of:
"joe mama at rare bird dot com"
to
"joe mama at rare bird dot net"
EJL63FLH
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:14:20 -0700, EJL63FLH <eric...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>
> > Here. Take a couple and pass the cooler around before thea
> > bartender sees it..
>
> A couple of what?
MGDs. I brought them in from the car...
>
>
> > I'm dying to hear of just what caused it to burn, or blow up.
>
> Yeah, me too..
>
> > Was it "Skating' rollers"?
>
> Roller or ice skating?
Supposedly, the oil os Sooooo slippery that the rollers don't roll. Then, I heard,
they start bouncing around, and I dunno, maybe just the fact that there is no
metal contact pisses the bearing or journal off so bad that it cavitates out of
sheer anger...
>
>
> > Was it oil that accumulated in the heads and wouldn't flow down the
> > return passages causing the heads to overheat?
>
> Why would this be any more or less possible in an engine that was using
> multi-vis as compared to single weight oil?
That's the point I brought up to the particular "genius" that came up with that
one..
>
>
> > Was the oil "too thin" to get thrown onto the cylinder walls from the
> > flywheels?
>
> I've never heard of this happening either, unless maybe someone's
> gonna be running WD-40 or penetrating oil..
Me neither.
>
>
> > Was it that the oil wasn't "Thick" enough to make it into the pinion
> > shaft, and out the crankpin holes?
>
> Yeah right. That "thin" oil is so much harder to flow through the same
> sized hole that thicker oil flows so freely through. If you can squirt catsup
> through a squeeze bottle nozzle, then you can sure squirt water through
> the same hole..
I suppose that if the pinion bushing was really loose, then the oil would seep out
into the gearcase, but wait, it would also seep into the pinion shaft hole, and to
the crankpin.
>
>
> > Were the roller bearings "Flooded" with oil, causing them to heat up?
>
> Overoiling = overheating? Since when?
Well, this is the one thing I've seen evidence of. At least to my satisfaction.
We'll say, that an HD *is* an "oil cooled" motor. (although it is an "Air Cooled V
Twin") If the heated oil doesn't flow away from the heating object, it doesn't
cool off. Ever have a radiator on a water cooled motor covered with oil? It
doesn't cool much at all. I don't know why. I don't know why a lot of things are
the way they are. I don't know why hot water freezes at the same speed that cold
water does. I don't know where the extra dollar went in the "motel" brain teaser.
I don't know why having a "dumb" woman isn't the answer, and why they just get mad
about "dumber" things. I don't know a lot of stuff.
>
>
> > Was is that there wasn't enough "Oil Pressure"?
>
> The first valid point that you've made here..
Well, all of the "points" I've made were sarcastic repetitions of things I've
heard that I don't think are true.
I had a 292 ford Y block that developed 50lbs of "oil pressure" because the rocker
arms were turned around backwards. FLOW is the main thing. If you had a bugger in
your crankpin hole ( or holes), and a clogged lifter screen, or a pinched Y tube
in my case, the oil pressure would be "Wonderful".
>
>
> > Did the flat cut gears overheat from the "light oil"?
>
> Since the outer edges of the teeth make no gear contact,
> exactly how does one heat up any more than the other?
That's what I wonder. Evos have them, and TC88s have them, especiallly with the
new S$S cam gear setup. I guess running 20-50 or mobil 1 is OK for them..
>
>
> > I simply have to hear of just ONE instance to shut down the research
> > process on this.
>
> I think that you'd better quit while you're ahead..
Too late..
>
>
> > I know this is just another "Oil String", in a way, but I haven't heard
> > this adressed in regard to Panheads and Slabside Shovels.
>
> I haven't heard these particular issue addressed with *any* motors..
>
> > I'm now at the point where I finally believe that Harley Davidson means
> > what they say on the back of their ol products about the 20-50wt being
> > for ALL Air Cooled V-Twin Harley Davidson engines. It's pretty plain.
> > It *doesn't* exclude flatties, knucks, pans, shovels, or hand pumpers.
> > It could have if they wanted it to.
>
> I'm from the old school and I don't care what they say, I won't run multi-vis
> oil in an early engine that runs hotter, particularly an iron or flathead. It
> may say "20-50," but it sure looks an awful lot thinner when it's hot..
It does look thinner, but I have, to my satisfaction squished it around between my
fingers, and have been shown reliable first hand test examples of how the actual
oil film is not thinner. (No TV infomercials)
I run QS 30wt in all my four wheelers. Always have, always will. Just habit I
guess,.
I know lots of iron cylinder air cooleds have run multis for years. Porsche, VW,
and others. I think they do fine.
I notice ny pan, in the first 300 mi.s is getting up to 200. I also know that auto
thermostats don't even open up til they get to 195 or 200. I know the cylinder
head temp is somewhat greater, and the manifold temp in diesel I run goes WAY up
there.
>
>
> > The early HD's that used Non Synthetic Rubber Tires, although "designed"
> > to run on them, or Biased Ply Tires took on synthetic rubber and
> > radials well enough.....
>
> The earlier machines were a lot lighter in weight and no doubt handle well
> with radial and synthetic rubber tires, though I prefer the real thing..
Vulcanized?
>
>
> > If what ALL the research about Mobil 1 is correct, and it would be hard
> > to make it all up, then there is no reason not to run it in the
> > aforementioned, as well.
>
> Why is it so hard to "make it up." All the oil manufacturers have to do is
> fund the research project with a grant and/or insure that select people on
> their covert
I'm getting paranoid here...
> fund payroll are in key "board" positions of oversight and
> they'll come up with whatever technical "findings" benefit the company..
>
> The did it in California with the smog initiatives. I forget which "board" it
> was that some Standard Oil executive's wife was chairman of, but after
> repeated discoveries of poisoned water supples, it took years of citizen
> action to counter and defeat the MTBE gas additive initiative that the oil
> companies insisted "cleaned up the air" and was" harmless to humans."
>
> Wanna talk about toothpaste and drinking water fluoridation?
Wanna talk a Faked Moon Landing in '68?
Roswell?
I saw Erin Brockovitch too... Nice tits...
>
>
> Money talks..
>
> > Thanks for relaying your experience of burning up a panhead or other
> > Pre-Evo on 20-50wt or Mobil 1.
>
> I've heard a few stories, but nothing confirmed for a fact..
Funny that when Dick From Chino posted the HDSB tothe HD list in Canada,that I
relayed here on this board way over a year ago, the TC88 Cam Bearing Fiasco was
treated like another Urban Internet Legend/Rumor...
I cancelled the 2k FXD I ordered, and didn't look back..
>
>
> > I needed something new.
>
> Be patient. You may be surprised that it doesn't exist..
Hopefully, I put a year and 3 grand in this motor, and I no more want to run a
motor oil in it that will fry it than I want to run molasses grade dino juice that
will guarantee me needing a top end every other year..
>
>
> > I have a pile of superstition, tradition, and habit already...
>
> Don't be so sure that it's all fairy tales, young fella..
Hey, nothing wrong with tradition and habit. It's when it's driven by outmoded
information and parts of others and myself that resist change for the sake of
resistance that I have to try and come up with a new way of looking at things. I
know that the early multi grades would break down into the lighter grade. That was
the norm about 20 years ago. I never liked the early stuff. I always used the old
bulk 50 wt in the Indian Scout in the early 70s. Ran fine.
Young fella? I'm 47. My bike's 37.
Picture's at http://www.spiritone.com/~ericwest/easter1.jpg
>
>
> > You can Smart Yourself Dumb,
>
> It's called the "dumbing down" of America..
>
> And it's happening..
>
> > Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?
>
> Most people won't believe the obvious because
> it sounds too preposterous to be true, and they
> don't care enough to investigate the evidence
> and find out for sure..
>
> > There are only so many ways to fry pet food.
>
> I wouldn't know..
Yeah well, take my word JM, Plain, and Barbecue are about the only variations
besides flame broiled or pan fried....
>
>
> -jm
>
> To return mail no spam, change the reply address of:
>
> "joe mama at rare bird dot com"
> to
> "joe mama at rare bird dot net"
--
EJL63FLH
63FLH 88"Stroker
78ChevPUCrankermobile
78 Ford GTE van
500CMX PLanter
You can Smart Yourself Dumb,
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?
Joe Mama
> Supposedly, the oil os Sooooo slippery that the rollers don't roll. Then, I heard,
> they start bouncing around
I may have heard of bearings being so slippery that they don't roll, but then
if this were true, wouldn't they be lubed up enough not to wear prematurely?
And bouncing around should only be caused by too loose tolerance in bearing
fit, which in a way could cause this phenomena oily or not..
> That's the point I brought up to the particular "genius" that came up with that
> one..
This goes back to the squeeze bottle example. If ketchup flows through the
rocker box drain hole, then water should go all that much easier..
> I suppose that if the pinion bushing was really loose, then the oil would seep out
> into the gearcase, but wait, it would also seep into the pinion shaft hole, and to
> the crankpin.
I suppose that the leakage depends on the shaft-to-bushing tolerance fit, but
i've seen some fairly loose ones that apparently fed enough oil to the pin..
> Well, this is the one thing I've seen evidence of. At least to my satisfaction.
> We'll say, that an HD *is* an "oil cooled" motor. (although it is an "Air Cooled V
> Twin") If the heated oil doesn't flow away from the heating object, it doesn't
> cool off.
Yeah, but with the continuous oil flow and centrifugal force of the flywheel
off, I don't see how it could stay on the pin long enough to overheat it..
> Well, all of the "points" I've made were sarcastic repetitions of things I've
> heard that I don't think are true.
Actually, I wasn't sure exactly where you were coming from at first..
> I had a 292 ford Y block that developed 50lbs of "oil pressure" because the rocker
> arms were turned around backwards. FLOW is the main thing. If you had a bugger in
> your crankpin hole ( or holes), and a clogged lifter screen, or a pinched Y tube
> in my case, the oil pressure would be "Wonderful".
True, but it would make itself obvious in short order..
> That's what I wonder. Evos have them, and TC88s have them, especiallly with the
> new S$S cam gear setup. I guess running 20-50 or mobil 1 is OK for them..
I'm not that familiar with evos and TC's, but all of the gears I recall seeing
in the shovel and earlier machines are flat outside edges, though it seems
that i've seen some pointed edge tranny gears somewhere..
>>> I know this is just another "Oil String", in a way, but I haven't heard
>>> this adressed in regard to Panheads and Slabside Shovels.
I must have overlooked this in my first reply. What is a "slabside" shovel?
> It does look thinner, but I have, to my satisfaction squished it around between my
> fingers, and have been shown reliable first hand test examples of how the actual
> oil film is not thinner. (No TV infomercials)
> I run QS 30wt in all my four wheelers. Always have, always will. Just habit I
> guess,.
> I know lots of iron cylinder air cooleds have run multis for years. Porsche, VW,
> and others. I think they do fine.
> I notice ny pan, in the first 300 mi.s is getting up to 200. I also know that auto
> thermostats don't even open up til they get to 195 or 200. I know the cylinder
> head temp is somewhat greater, and the manifold temp in diesel I run goes WAY up
> there.
I used Chevron Ashless Dispersant 50w aviation oil in my last knucklehead, and
it definiitely stayed as thick as molasses. I thought that it was good for
the air cooled iron head, but perhaps next time i'll go with 40 weight. I
don't believe that aviation oil comes in multiple viscosity..
>> The earlier machines were a lot lighter in weight and no doubt handle well
>> with radial and synthetic rubber tires, though I prefer the real thing..
> Vulcanized?
Now there's a word that I haven't heard in decades..
>> Why is it so hard to "make it up." All the oil manufacturers have to do is
>> fund the research project with a grant and/or insure that select people on
>> their covert
> I'm getting paranoid here...
Yeah, but when big money is involved, it happens..
>> Wanna talk about toothpaste and drinking water fluoridation?
> Wanna talk a Faked Moon Landing in '68?
I don't believe this one. It's just food for the sheep..
We really did go to the moon..
> Roswell?
This one was a farce, in my opinion..
> I saw Erin Brockovitch too... Nice tits...
I've heard the name, but who is she?
> Funny that when Dick From Chino posted the HDSB tothe HD list in Canada,that I
> relayed here on this board way over a year ago, the TC88 Cam Bearing Fiasco was
> treated like another Urban Internet Legend/Rumor...
Consider the source. People on here have their own stubborn ideas, and the
issues that I raise, I butt heads with them on a consistent basis..
> I cancelled the 2k FXD I ordered, and didn't look back..
Good move. I'm strictly a Torrington man myself..
> Hopefully, I put a year and 3 grand in this motor, and I no more want to run a
> motor oil in it that will fry it than I want to run molasses grade dino juice that
> will guarantee me needing a top end every other year..
I understand, but can't offer any suggestions cuz i'm not evo or TC literate.
All of my knowledge and experience go from VL flatheads to FL shovelheads..
I would logically think however, that an HD motor is an HD motor and oil is
oil, but you'll have to make that decision yourself..
> Hey, nothing wrong with tradition and habit. It's when it's driven by outmoded
> information and parts of others and myself that resist change for the sake of
> resistance that I have to try and come up with a new way of looking at things.
Okay, I thought that you were debunking the old technology, cuz a lot of us
were broken in on backyard mechanics, and it worked for us..
> I know that the early multi grades would break down into the lighter grade.
> That was the norm about 20 years ago. I never liked the early stuff. I always
> used the old bulk 50 wt in the Indian Scout in the early 70s. Ran fine.
And I remember when we used to run 70w, when we could find it..
> Young fella? I'm 47. My bike's 37.
I gotcha by six years..
>>> There are only so many ways to fry pet food.
>> I wouldn't know..
> Yeah well, take my word JM, Plain, and Barbecue are about the only variations
> besides flame broiled or pan fried....
Thank God that I haven't yet had to find out..
Bill and Janet Messer
knowledge.
Ride On!
Madowis
I say you made some good points. Oil to the rod bearings needs to be thick to
keep the pressure up to properly cool and lub them. When you have oversized oil
passages or loose clearences or too thin, hot oil, you wont get the proper
flow.
As far as the gears go you want the oil to stay on them and once again if to
thin or hot, that wont happen.
Oil dosnt sling off the flywheels. It is whiped off. There isnt any room in
there for it to sling to anyway. They are in a oil bath
Stay with the HD60 and change every two thousand miles and you will be OK.
Stay away from the multi weight and mobil1 in your pan mtr and she will love
you for it. Leave that for the evos and 2 cams.
Also run the valvoline simi synthetic gear lub in your tranny and change
every other oil change.
Are you running belt or chain in the primary. If its a chain, get rid of it
and put a belt in there.
Nice pan you have.
Mark, Atl, Ga.
63FL, 63FLHtankshift, 1940 Indian4. 45Chief, 98ultra
Joe Mama
wrote:
> Joe you are a Silver Tounged Devil you amaae me once in a while with your
> knowledge.
Aww shucks. Sometimes I even amaae myself.. <ssf>
greg...@netdoor.com
to use a 60W oil in warm to hot weather and 50W in cooler weather 40 degrees or
lower. My personal experance with the wrong oil was in 61 or 62. it was a Harley
"45" WL flathead. I droped it on a gravel road at about 60 mph. Some how the oil
cap came off and it lost almost all of the oil. I was out in the woods about 60
miles from the nearest dealer, all I could get was 30W oil. I put it in and
started home, by the time I got back the lower end was knocking. I did not ride
fast and it was in the fall weather about 50 or 60 degrees. After the rebuild I
have alwas put the recomemded oil in what ever year model Harley I had. I would
think that the factory people know more about what type of oil is best for the
motor. Hey evan at todays price of about 3 bucks a quart it is still cheaper
than a rebuild. I found out the hard way. I guess Evos use 20W40 I don't know,
if they were designed to use that use it.
Later
In article <3AE61211...@home.com>, Bill and Janet Messer says...
EJL63FLH
> I belive the older Harleys, flatheads pan heads and shovel heads were designed
> to use a 60W oil in warm to hot weather and 50W in cooler weather 40 degrees or
> lower.
I have to take a small issue with that statement, at least as I have come to
understand it. IMHO Harleys were not so much designed specifically to use the
50-60-70, and I believe the actual gradations used in the HDSM were slightly lower,
they were designed to use the best, most stable, and viscocious oil available at the
time. As I said in the prevoius portion, early harleys could be said to be "designed
to use" bias ply, or raw rubber tires as well.
> My personal experance with the wrong oil was in 61 or 62. it was a Harley
> "45" WL flathead. I droped it on a gravel road at about 60 mph. Some how the oil
> cap came off and it lost almost all of the oil. I was out in the woods about 60
> miles from the nearest dealer, all I could get was 30W oil.
I used 50wt tomahawk oil in my 30.50 scout in 73-4. It ran fine. I tried thickening
it up with STP, and it started kind of hard, and my clutch slipped..
> I put it in and
> started home, by the time I got back the lower end was knocking. I did not ride
> fast and it was in the fall weather about 50 or 60 degrees.
I know about many auto oils in the 60s and mostly 70s. I wouldn't run anything that
was multigrade, as they broke down into the lowest weight. Havoline sucked, and
pennzoil went to hell. The only car oil I use is QS 30 straight weight. It coats
better, and I've never lost an engine that was running it.
> After the rebuild I
> have alwas put the recomemded oil in what ever year model Harley I had. I would
> think that the factory people know more about what type of oil is best for the
> motor.
IT's there as plain as day, in the oil folder that's next to the oil in the rack at
the HD dealership. 20-50wt is recommended for all temperature ranges from 40f to
100f. That is the Factory Recomendation. No doubt in my mind.
> Hey evan at todays price of about 3 bucks a quart it is still cheaper
> than a rebuild. I found out the hard way. I guess Evos use 20W40 I don't know,
> if they were designed to use that use it.
> Later
I know a dozen guys that run 20-50 in their shovels. two in Slabside Shovels, and two
that have panheads. One Pre 61'.
I just finished my first oil change after 500 miles of reasonably firm break-in. I
dissected the filter. Small amounts of machine tailings, very small amounts of thrust
washer centerpunch feathers, an nothing else. No sheen in the oil. no noise, Temp
runs between 200 and 170 consistently.
After all the research I've done, my conclusion, ( and I indeed thank you for your
personal experience, as thats what I asked for) is that most damage is done at
start-up, and that by lack of oil. The rodset clrnces and pinion/sprocket clearances
are not any tighter, Mu pistons are set at .005 with the latest S$S forged pistons
and hastings rings. No smoke.
I don't know about synth 20-50, and am willing to make the step to 20-50 in the light
of the Harley Davidson Recommendation, and all the other research I have done, along
with the conspicious abscence of concrete evidence of it's failure in Pre-Evos
without what I see as previous mechanical problems or history of a different oil
weight used.
Thank you for your reply.
BTW, in 61, my bike was still on the drawing board.
Gotta run. Thanks
EJL63FLH
63FLH 88"Stroker
78ChevPUCrankermobile
78 Ford GTE van
500CMX PLanter
You can Smart Yourself Dumb,
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?
Joe Mama
> greg...@netdoor.com wrote:
>> I belive the older Harleys, flatheads pan heads and shovel heads were designed
>> to use a 60W oil in warm to hot weather and 50W in cooler weather 40 degrees or
>> lower.
> I have to take a small issue with that statement, at least as I have come to
> understand it. IMHO Harleys were not so much designed specifically to use the
> 50-60-70, and I believe the actual gradations used in the HDSM were slightly lower,
> they were designed to use the best, most stable, and viscocious oil available at the
> time. As I said in the prevoius portion, early harleys could be said to be "designed
> to use" bias ply, or raw rubber tires as well.
Unless i'm mistaken, Harley never made 70 weight oil. I believe that there
were three grades of HD oil, "Regular Heavy" being 50W or 60W, the lightest
being 40W and i'm not sure of the middle one.
>> My personal experance with the wrong oil was in 61 or 62. it was a Harley
>> "45" WL flathead. I droped it on a gravel road at about 60 mph. Some how the oil
>> cap came off and it lost almost all of the oil. I was out in the woods about 60
>> miles from the nearest dealer, all I could get was 30W oil.
> I used 50wt tomahawk oil in my 30.50 scout in 73-4. It ran fine. I tried thickening
> it up with STP, and it started kind of hard, and my clutch slipped..
Fifty weight will work fine in any earlier HD motor..
>> I put it in and
>> started home, by the time I got back the lower end was knocking. I did not ride
>> fast and it was in the fall weather about 50 or 60 degrees.
> I know about many auto oils in the 60s and mostly 70s. I wouldn't run anything that
> was multigrade, as they broke down into the lowest weight. Havoline sucked, and
> pennzoil went to hell. The only car oil I use is QS 30 straight weight. It coats
> better, and I've never lost an engine that was running it.
Running 30W in a WL for a short time shouldn't have caused this guy's rod
knock, As far as running automobile oils, i've never had a problem with
Pennzoil, but I wouldn't use Valvoline on a bet..
>> After the rebuild I
>> have alwas put the recomemded oil in what ever year model Harley I had. I would
>> think that the factory people know more about what type of oil is best for the
>> motor.
> IT's there as plain as day, in the oil folder that's next to the oil in the rack at
> the HD dealership. 20-50wt is recommended for all temperature ranges from 40f to
> 100f. That is the Factory Recomendation. No doubt in my mind.
This may be the factory recommendation for EVO motors, but I can only recall
one person who used it in the earlier engines..
>> Hey evan at todays price of about 3 bucks a quart it is still cheaper
>> than a rebuild. I found out the hard way. I guess Evos use 20W40 I don't know,
>> if they were designed to use that use it.
>> Later
> I know a dozen guys that run 20-50 in their shovels. two in Slabside Shovels, and two
> that have panheads. One Pre 61'.
This just goes to show how binding the power of suggestion can be. If the
factory didn't stand to profit more off of 20-50 than they do with mono weight
oils, I doubt that they'd be advertising it as applicable to early machines..
How long do these guys go between rebuilds?
> I just finished my first oil change after 500 miles of reasonably firm break-in. I
> dissected the filter. Small amounts of machine tailings, very small amounts of thrust
> washer centerpunch feathers, an nothing else. No sheen in the oil. no noise, Temp
> runs between 200 and 170 consistently.
You ran a new motor for five hundred miles with no oil change? I wouldn't
have let it go over a hundred..
> After all the research I've done, my conclusion, ( and I indeed thank you for your
> personal experience, as thats what I asked for) is that most damage is done at
> start-up, and that by lack of oil. The rodset clrnces and pinion/sprocket clearances
> are not any tighter, Mu pistons are set at .005 with the latest S$S forged pistons
> and hastings rings. No smoke.
I set my cast pistons a .001" - .002", my rod side play at .006" - .010", my
cam end play at about .005", and other tolerances a lot tighter than the
factory allows for new engines. I break them in slow and easy, not going over
55-60 mph for a full five hundred miles, and have only had a problem one time
with aftermarket pistons. I had my rods done by one machine shop at the old
tolerances and took it to another for flywheel balancing, and the guy hogged
the rods out to today's tolerances. I was more than a little upset, and came
really close to having them done over again, except that it's just a temp
motor for the time being. Engines are built way too loose nowadays..
> I don't know about synth 20-50, and am willing to make the step to 20-50 in the light
> of the Harley Davidson Recommendation, and all the other research I have done, along
> with the conspicious abscence of concrete evidence of it's failure in Pre-Evos
> without what I see as previous mechanical problems or history of a different oil
> weight used.
Experience is the best teacher, but I don't like to find out the hard way..
EJL63FLH
> On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:19:39 -0700, EJL63FLH <eric...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>
> > greg...@netdoor.com wrote:
>
> >> I belive the older Harleys, flatheads pan heads and shovel heads were designed
> >> to use a 60W oil in warm to hot weather and 50W in cooler weather 40 degrees or
> >> lower.
>
> > I have to take a small issue with that statement, at least as I have come to
> > understand it. IMHO Harleys were not so much designed specifically to use the
> > 50-60-70, and I believe the actual gradations used in the HDSM were slightly lower,
> > they were designed to use the best, most stable, and viscocious oil available at the
> > time. As I said in the prevoius portion, early harleys could be said to be "designed
> > to use" bias ply, or raw rubber tires as well.
>
> Unless i'm mistaken, Harley never made 70 weight oil. I believe that there
> were three grades of HD oil, "Regular Heavy" being 50W or 60W, the lightest
> being 40W and i'm not sure of the middle one.
I'll defer to you as I don't have the reference to the co-relation of the HD grades was.
>
>
> >> My personal experance with the wrong oil was in 61 or 62. it was a Harley
> >> "45" WL flathead. I droped it on a gravel road at about 60 mph. Some how the oil
> >> cap came off and it lost almost all of the oil. I was out in the woods about 60
> >> miles from the nearest dealer, all I could get was 30W oil.
>
> > I used 50wt tomahawk oil in my 30.50 scout in 73-4. It ran fine. I tried thickening
> > it up with STP, and it started kind of hard, and my clutch slipped..
>
> Fifty weight will work fine in any earlier HD motor..
Not disputing you or that here at all.. Put the chair down......
>
>
> >> I put it in and
> >> started home, by the time I got back the lower end was knocking. I did not ride
> >> fast and it was in the fall weather about 50 or 60 degrees.
>
> > I know about many auto oils in the 60s and mostly 70s. I wouldn't run anything that
> > was multigrade, as they broke down into the lowest weight. Havoline sucked, and
> > pennzoil went to hell. The only car oil I use is QS 30 straight weight. It coats
> > better, and I've never lost an engine that was running it.
>
> Running 30W in a WL for a short time shouldn't have caused this guy's rod
> knock, As far as running automobile oils, i've never had a problem with
> Pennzoil, but I wouldn't use Valvoline on a bet..
I wouldn't think so, but then I warn't there...probably nacked the pinion or something
else..
>
>
> >> After the rebuild I
> >> have alwas put the recomemded oil in what ever year model Harley I had. I would
> >> think that the factory people know more about what type of oil is best for the
> >> motor.
>
> > IT's there as plain as day, in the oil folder that's next to the oil in the rack at
> > the HD dealership. 20-50wt is recommended for all temperature ranges from 40f to
> > 100f. That is the Factory Recomendation. No doubt in my mind.
>
> This may be the factory recommendation for EVO motors, but I can only recall
> one person who used it in the earlier engines..
Oh mon Frere, there are dozens that I personally know. Slab Shovels, Shovels, and others.
Some with email..
>
>
> >> Hey evan at todays price of about 3 bucks a quart it is still cheaper
> >> than a rebuild. I found out the hard way. I guess Evos use 20W40 I don't know,
> >> if they were designed to use that use it.
> >> Later
>
> > I know a dozen guys that run 20-50 in their shovels. two in Slabside Shovels, and two
> > that have panheads. One Pre 61'.
>
> This just goes to show how binding the power of suggestion can be. If the
> factory didn't stand to profit more off of 20-50 than they do with mono weight
> oils, I doubt that they'd be advertising it as applicable to early machines..
I'm not sure they do, I think it's that they make a tidy sum offering the older "grades" to
more steeped clientele... Do you suppose they lose money on it? Kind of a bold atatement
they make on the bottle, and in the pamphlet that's right next to the oil trellace in the
Lube Boutique.. They say that:
50 wt is designated for 60-80degrees F.
60 wt is desig.. for 80-100 degrees F
20-50 is designated for 40deg-100degF
Also that 10-40 is for below 40 F.
(I been out riding this evening in the 40s)
>
>
> How long do these guys go between rebuilds?
The one case that is my prize consideration is Joey Boy, a log truck drivin man thats got
an FXLR with OVER 100k on the 1st TOP END. Kinda hard for me to tell him I thought he was
"woofin".
I'd just as soon risk it all on "skating caged bearings" on a one time 1000$ shot than be
"top ended" to death slowly every other year from valve trains, cylinders and other things
that were just sitting there waiting patiently for molasses to rise through the 3/16"
overhead oiler tubes,,,,,,,,,
>
>
> > I just finished my first oil change after 500 miles of reasonably firm break-in. I
> > dissected the filter. Small amounts of machine tailings, very small amounts of thrust
> > washer centerpunch feathers, an nothing else. No sheen in the oil. no noise, Temp
> > runs between 200 and 170 consistently.
>
> You ran a new motor for five hundred miles with no oil change? I wouldn't
> have let it go over a hundred..
Showed no signs, and had been "blown clear" of a couple quarts in a glass dish.
>
>
>
> > After all the research I've done, my conclusion, ( and I indeed thank you for your
> > personal experience, as thats what I asked for) is that most damage is done at
> > start-up, and that by lack of oil. The rodset clrnces and pinion/sprocket clearances
> > are not any tighter, Mu pistons are set at .005 with the latest S$S forged pistons
> > and hastings rings. No smoke.
>
> I set my cast pistons a .001" - .002", my rod side play at .006" - .010", my
> cam end play at about .005", and other tolerances a lot tighter than the
> factory allows for new engines. I break them in slow and easy, not going over
> 55-60 mph for a full five hundred miles, and have only had a problem one time
> with aftermarket pistons. I had my rods done by one machine shop at the old
> tolerances and took it to another for flywheel balancing, and the guy hogged
> the rods out to today's tolerances. I was more than a little upset, and came
> really close to having them done over again, except that it's just a temp
> motor for the time being.
Let me tell you some time about how I waited for a "Perfectionist Craftsman" to take 8
months to do my motor, and when I found through my own error, that he had set the conrod
set to an earlier .0001 to .00015, and just called it GOOD. When I told him that the 60 AND
up clearances were .0006 to .0001 he said that I was full of shit, and that it was "good
enough to run" and "anyplace I take it to will tell me that". Yeah, well, I did, they did,
and I know what I know, how long I've been around to know it, and who else knows it to some
extent... nuff o that. He did a good job at what he believed I wanted, and we'll leave
it at that. I thank him for his Craftsmanship if not his "People Skills". (When I wanted to
take a picture of him near the motor, he thought I was with the FBI or IRS, ATF, IRA, or
what have you....( I just wanted to capture his spirit.... sheeeshhh.))
I think you know the story,,,,
> Engines are built way too loose nowadays..
I was i in the process of deciding which way to go. Was told. and accepted the .005 clrnc
after asking S$S, who built the pistons, and a coupla guys that have done the trip around a
coupla times..
>
>
> > I don't know about synth 20-50, and am willing to make the step to 20-50 in the light
> > of the Harley Davidson Recommendation, and all the other research I have done, along
> > with the conspicious abscence of concrete evidence of it's failure in Pre-Evos
> > without what I see as previous mechanical problems or history of a different oil
> > weight used.
>
> Experience is the best teacher, but I don't like to find out the hard way..
Again RB I appreciate your instruction.I genuinely consider it that, and offer no willful
disrespect. Hopefully my humorous jabs might be considered a tribute to people with more
road burns than I. I know how youse got them. Mine might be few, but I try to remember 'em.
>
>
> -jm
>
> To return mail no spam, change the reply address of:
>
> "joe mama at rare bird dot com"
> to
> "joe mama at rare bird dot net"
Now, with that pitiful bunch of Butt Kissing out of the way....
<80)
Later. Nice cool clear nite tonite. Steppenwolf's made the trip around while I wrote
this...
I haul heavy equipment for a living.
Does it show that bad?
--
EJL63FLH
> CORRECTION BELOW
> the 60 AND
> up clearances were .0006 to
CORRECTION: .0006 to .001
> .0001
Correction above^^^ I get steamed when I thnk of it and start "Mashing"...
<snip>
Joe Mama
>> Unless i'm mistaken, Harley never made 70 weight oil. I believe that there
>> were three grades of HD oil, "Regular Heavy" being 50W or 60W, the lightest
>> being 40W and i'm not sure of the middle one.
> I'll defer to you as I don't have the reference to the co-relation of the HD grades was.
The HD Fall and Winter Accessories Catalog of 1930 shows "Winter Oil" for
temperatures below 15 degrees, "Medium Heavy" for all ordinary service, and
"Heavy Duty" for extremely high speeds or heavy loads..
The 1945 Spare Parts Catalog shows "Medium Heavy - Winter Oil" for all models
SV/OHV at temperatures below 32 degrees, "Medium Heavy - Summer Grade" for all
OHV models at temperatures above 32 degrees, and "Regular Heavy" for all SV
models above 32 degrees. Figure this one out..
The 1957 K/XL parts catalog show "Special Light - 58" for use in all motors at
temperatures below 32 degrees, "Medium Heavy -75" for normal service in all
motors at temperatures between 32 and 75, and "Regular Heavy - 105" for all
normal service in all motors of temperatures over 75, and for extreme service
at all temperatures." The 1963 KH/XL parts catalog is basicly the same..
The 1959-85 Clymer XL Service-Repair-Maintenance manual lists "HD grade 58"
for below 40 degrees, "HD grade 75" for above 40 degrees, "HD grade 105" for
severe operating conditions @ 90 degrees and above for 1959-78 motors, and for
1979-85 motors "HD special light" for below 40 degrees, "HD medium heavy" for
40 - 60 degrees, "HD regulalr heavy" for 60 degrees and above, and "HD extra
heavy grade 60" for severe engine operating conditions at 80 degrees and above
I have other manuals, but they say basicly the same thing, however, a reprint
of the old military WLA manuals shows a picture of an ID plate which reads:
LUBRICATION:
engine and transmission}
ABOVE FREEZING (32 degrees F.)_ S.A.E. #50
+32 degrees F. to +10 F.__________ S.A.E. #30
BELOW +10 degrees F.___________ S.A.E. #10 W
>> Fifty weight will work fine in any earlier HD motor..
> Not disputing you or that here at all.. Put the chair down......
I never had it up to begin with..
>> Running 30W in a WL for a short time shouldn't have caused this guy's rod
>> knock, As far as running automobile oils, i've never had a problem with
>> Pennzoil, but I wouldn't use Valvoline on a bet..
> I wouldn't think so, but then I warn't there...probably nacked the pinion or something
> else..
Well, considering the Mil specs above, it's not likely unless it was 100+
degrees and he was running it mighty hard all the way home..
>> This may be the factory recommendation for EVO motors, but I can only recall
>> one person who used it in the earlier engines..
> Oh mon Frere, there are dozens that I personally know. Slab Shovels, Shovels, and others.
> Some with email..
Oh well, different strokes for different folks. I'm rather old fashioned and
prefer to maintain my machines according to traditional specs..
BTW. What is a "slabside" shovel? I have never heard this term, but then
again I recall when they first called shovels "new knuckleheads" and later
"buttonheads," and almost no one else remembers this..
>> This just goes to show how binding the power of suggestion can be. If the
>> factory didn't stand to profit more off of 20-50 than they do with mono weight
>> oils, I doubt that they'd be advertising it as applicable to early machines..
> I'm not sure they do, I think it's that they make a tidy sum offering the older "grades" to
> more steeped clientele... Do you suppose they lose money on it? Kind of a bold atatement
> they make on the bottle, and in the pamphlet that's right next to the oil trellace in the
> Lube Boutique.. They say that:
Just a thought, as you know how the almighty dollar rules over reason and
logic..
> 50 wt is designated for 60-80degrees F.
> 60 wt is desig.. for 80-100 degrees F
> 20-50 is designated for 40deg-100degF
> Also that 10-40 is for below 40 F.
I see that things have changed, but I don't believe that I have *ever* bought
genuine HD oil. I used ashless dispersant aviation oil in my old iron motors.
> (I been out riding this evening in the 40s)
Lightweight. I broke in in Frisco where cold is a way of life..
Don't let that old song about "warm San Franciscan nights" fool you, cuz there
ain't no such thing..
>> How long do these guys go between rebuilds?
> The one case that is my prize consideration is Joey Boy, a log truck drivin man thats got
> an FXLR with OVER 100k on the 1st TOP END. Kinda hard for me to tell him I thought he was
> "woofin".
Man, some guys really push it, but then again I remember back when we couldn't
afford to rebuild and let 'em go until they started to knock or come apart..
> I'd just as soon risk it all on "skating caged bearings" on a one time 1000$ shot than be
> "top ended" to death slowly every other year from valve trains, cylinders and other things
> that were just sitting there waiting patiently for molasses to rise through the 3/16"
> overhead oiler tubes,,,,,,,,,
You shouldn't have a problem if you let it warm up sufficiently before riding,
and a *lot* of guys don't do this..
>> You ran a new motor for five hundred miles with no oil change? I wouldn't
>> have let it go over a hundred..
> Showed no signs, and had been "blown clear" of a couple quarts in a glass dish.
Oh well. Actually, my engine problems seem to mostly be aftermarket parts
related rather than tolerance or lubrication. If it's still available,
genuine HD is the ONLY way to go..
>> I set my cast pistons a .001" - .002", my rod side play at .006" - .010", my
>> cam end play at about .005", and other tolerances a lot tighter than the
>> factory allows for new engines. I break them in slow and easy, not going over
>> 55-60 mph for a full five hundred miles, and have only had a problem one time
>> with aftermarket pistons. I had my rods done by one machine shop at the old
>> tolerances and took it to another for flywheel balancing, and the guy hogged
>> the rods out to today's tolerances. I was more than a little upset, and came
>> really close to having them done over again, except that it's just a temp
>> motor for the time being.
> Let me tell you some time about how I waited for a "Perfectionist Craftsman" to take 8
> months to do my motor, and when I found through my own error, that he had set the conrod
> set to an earlier .0001 to .00015, and just called it GOOD. When I told him that the 60 AND
> up clearances were .0006 to .0001 he said that I was full of shit, and that it was "good
> enough to run" and "anyplace I take it to will tell me that". Yeah, well, I did, they did,
> and I know what I know, how long I've been around to know it, and who else knows it to some
> extent... nuff o that. He did a good job at what he believed I wanted, and we'll leave
> it at that. I thank him for his Craftsmanship if not his "People Skills". (When I wanted to
> take a picture of him near the motor, he thought I was with the FBI or IRS, ATF, IRA, or
> what have you....( I just wanted to capture his spirit.... sheeeshhh.))
> I think you know the story,,,,
Oh yeah. I do all my assembly and fitting, but have to take the machine work
elsewhere. The first guy that I went to used to have a good name until he got
all screwed up on crank, which I unfortunately found out too late. He took
nine months to set up my valve spring spacing, hone the rods, and balance the
flywheels. I kept getting put off until one day until finally I had enough
and after he smarted off to me I read him the riot act. He promised to have
it all ready by the next day, and then called the police after I left. When I
came back and saw that it wasn't done right, he called the police on me before
I even got the second objection out of my mouth..
I got my due, but I also had to take it to another guy to have the heads done
and verify that the balancing wasn't done to exact specs as was agreed. The
only thing that this guy did right was to hone the rods to my specs, and then
the other guy screwed it up because he thought that it was too tight..
Sometimes you just can't win..
>> Engines are built way too loose nowadays..
> I was i in the process of deciding which way to go. Was told. and accepted the .005 clrnc
> after asking S$S, who built the pistons, and a coupla guys that have done the trip around a
> coupla times..
I only ran forged pistons once, and the engine began to seize up after only
about two blocks. The MC company of Los Angeles used to market them, and they
spec'd the fit at .003" - .006", so me wanting a tight fit, I went for the
minimum. I had to rebuild the upper end. I called the MC company and talked
to the "president." He got all flustered and told me that "I get a call like
this about once a year." "There's nothing wrong with those pistons." "You must
have set them up wrong." Ironically, these pistons were discontinued a short
time after that and they began to market fairly good cast pistons..
>> Experience is the best teacher, but I don't like to find out the hard way..
> Again RB I appreciate your instruction.I genuinely consider it that, and offer no willful
> disrespect. Hopefully my humorous jabs might be considered a tribute to people with more
> road burns than I. I know how youse got them. Mine might be few, but I try to remember 'em.
Yeah, i've had a few. Fortunately, only a few for so long on the road..
> I haul heavy equipment for a living.
> Does it show that bad?
I dunno. how long are your arms stretched?
Cobra
news:3aec346a...@news.pon.net...
"Slabside" shovel = Generator
as opposed to "Cone" shovel = Alternator ( 1969 and later, i think?)
Joe Mama
<BIG cut>
>> BTW. What is a "slabside" shovel? I have never heard this term, but then
>> again I recall when they first called shovels "new knuckleheads" and later
>> "buttonheads," and almost no one else remembers this..
> "Slabside" shovel = Generator
> as opposed to "Cone" shovel = Alternator ( 1969 and later, i think?)
1970 and later..
<Another BIG cut>
You know, you should cut out the unused comments so that we don't
have to scroll through lines and lines of unnecessary text..
EJL63FLH
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 01:26:11 -0700, EJL63FLH <eric...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>
> >> Unless i'm mistaken, Harley never made 70 weight oil.
Possibly, you're right. Possibly Revtech, or some such. I know the goof that had the bike before
me had tried to "quiet his motor down" with it. A roller rocker had skated, and the aluminum
bearing cages were coming apart, along with the thrust washers from a poor job "belt sanding" the
old rodset flat.
When he tried to start it for me, he had to heat the oil tank with a Reddy Heater, and we never
did get it going. I didn't hear any heavy metal contact, and figured it was good for my purposes.
... a year, and 3000$ later, It was.
How did the guy running a different oil end up? And there is no special designation on the Oil
I've been buying from HD. It most assuredly says "All V-Twin Air cooled engines" It doesn't say
"except Shovelheads, Panheads, Knucks, Flatties, Whizzers, or hand Pumpers....
The above snipped portion shows that indeed there is no way to get "the oil that was recomended".
( other than the Mil Specs, which could have very well meant a plain ole nondetergent oil) Only a
guideline for matching up the SAE, or Modern Grades, weights, and viscosities.
>
>
>
>
> Oh well, different strokes for different folks. I'm rather old fashioned and
> prefer to maintain my machines according to traditional specs..
Ah... Tradition.. It's what made me cancel my FXD order, and further my education..
>
>
>
> I see that things have changed, but I don't believe that I have *ever* bought
> genuine HD oil. I used ashless dispersant aviation oil in my old iron motors.
Guys I know use Valvoline 50wt racing oil, and there's a guy that even uses 15-40 Delo.
>
>
> > (I been out riding this evening in the 40s)
>
> Lightweight. I broke in in Frisco where cold is a way of life..
And rain.. Nope, I spent my early "bike years" in some pretty cold and miserable shit. Used to,
on longer trips draft semis on I-5, and drive until my hands, face and knees were numb, and then
stop somewhere out of the wind, and hug the motor to get the feeling back. I remember the longer
you could take it, the better off you were, as it took a long time to warm up. fried many a pair
of gloves...I know that Navy Pea coats work the best for the wet stuff, and they frost up when
it's cold enough..
>
>
> Don't let that old song about "warm San Franciscan nights" fool you, cuz there
> ain't no such thing..
I remember a Lonnnggg ass 30-40 mi stretch out to Vallejo i made one nite ( warm) with my bud on
his way to Mare Island. Couldn't stay the night there, (and dog tired from riding without goggles
or glasses from Coos Bay, the morning before.) so headed back alone and finally couldn't take it
any more and decided to find a motel at 3 in the morning. I found one that had bulletproof glass
and a slot in it for the clerk, ( way before it became a fad.) and parked ( honda 350). after a
couple minutes I answered the knock on the door to find the clerk. He asked if I was from around
there, and said that he'd let me park the bike in a locked alley, or I'd never see it again. Nice
of him.
Btw, on the stretch to Vallejo, I noticed a flicker out in front of me, and before I knew what
was happening, we were splitting a line of HA, going about 100. Never forget the sound. One of
them was a tuned up Trumpet, sweetest sound I'd ever heard..
Took the long way back to Ptld up Hwy1 after checking out Ghiradelli Sq, and the Hungry I, and
telegraph hill. 73, so "San Fransciscan nights" were long gone." wish I could find that cut...
Thanks for the exchange.
I'll be around. It rains a lot up here in Big Poodle ( Portland OR) and I don't have to ride in
it any more. I've got three $200 cars for that..
Happy riding.
Panhead
>
> Joe Mama wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 01:26:11 -0700, EJL63FLH <eric...@spiritone.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> Unless i'm mistaken, Harley never made 70 weight oil.
>
> Possibly, you're right. Possibly Revtech, or some such.
Possibly nothing.
Harley NEVER made oil. Neither does Revtech.
However, lubricants WERE/ARE made by others, and H-D (as well as
RevTech and others) merely put their "name" on the cans.
Just like they do now.
EJL63FLH
> Harley NEVER made oil. Neither does Revtech.
Right you are, of course, It still doesn't "tell you" anywhere I could find..
Dinosaurs are a safe fingerable source...
Joe Mama
>>>> Unless i'm mistaken, Harley never made 70 weight oil.
> Possibly, you're right. Possibly Revtech, or some such.
Yeah, there are, or used to be several brands which made 70W, but it had to be
ordered cuz almost no one else would buy it except us..
> I know the goof that had the bike before me had tried to "quiet his motor down"
> with it.
We used to use STP, but it doesn't really work..
> A roller rocker had skated, and the aluminum bearing cages were coming apart,
> along with the thrust washers from a poor job "belt sanding" the old rodset flat.
I must admit that as much as I don't like the aluminum cages, I used them on
my present-but-not-yet-running engine instead of the earlier steel ones. I
let that idiot who did my rods talk me into it..
Some good advice, no matter how good they *used* to be, DON'T TAKE ADVICE FROM
SPEED FREAK MECHANICS OR ALLOW THEM TO TOUCH YOUR MACHINE..
I just wish that I had realised this before it was too late..
> When he tried to start it for me, he had to heat the oil tank with a Reddy Heater, and we never
> did get it going. I didn't hear any heavy metal contact, and figured it was good for my purposes.
Heat it with a torch with 70 weight? I think that he was grossly
overexaggerating the situation..
I would use 70 weight on a well worn iron or flathead motor, but 50W or 60W
should be fine otherwise and with aluminum head engines..
> ... a year, and 3000$ later, It was.
OUCH!! I'm just glad that I do my own wrenching, cuz if it comes apart
because of what I did, I have no one to blame but myself..
> How did the guy running a different oil end up? And there is no special designation on the Oil
> I've been buying from HD. It most assuredly says "All V-Twin Air cooled engines" It doesn't say
> "except Shovelheads, Panheads, Knucks, Flatties, Whizzers, or hand Pumpers....
That's what they say, but again, even if it works i'm still a traditionalist..
> The above snipped portion shows that indeed there is no way to get "the oil that was recomended".
> ( other than the Mil Specs, which could have very well meant a plain ole nondetergent oil) Only a
> guideline for matching up the SAE, or Modern Grades, weights, and viscosities.
Probably true, as the military during WW2 probably wanted oil uniformity..
>> Oh well, different strokes for different folks. I'm rather old fashioned and
>> prefer to maintain my machines according to traditional specs..
> Ah... Tradition.. It's what made me cancel my FXD order, and further my education..
Good move. Cover all of the available avenues before making a commitment..
> Guys I know use Valvoline 50wt racing oil, and there's a guy that even uses 15-40 Delo.
I wouldn't use Valvoline, racing oil included, unless it was the only stuff on
the market. In my opinion, it thins out like water during long riding in hot
weather. I want oil which maintains viscosity under all conditions..
That's why I went over to ashless dispersant aviation oil, but for anyone who
wants to try it, DON'T USE AEROSHELL MINERAL OIL in a motorcycle..
>> Lightweight. I broke in in Frisco where cold is a way of life..
> And rain..
Nah, it doesn't rain excessively in the City..
> Nope, I spent my early "bike years" in some pretty cold and miserable shit. Used to,
> on longer trips draft semis on I-5, and drive until my hands, face and knees were numb, and then
> stop somewhere out of the wind, and hug the motor to get the feeling back. I remember the longer
> you could take it, the better off you were, as it took a long time to warm up. fried many a pair
> of gloves...
I remember a ride from Grant's Pass to Portland in the wintertime, though it
wasn't snowing. We took off in the late afternoon and by the time we got to
Salem, we were FREEZING!! We stopped at a gas station and picked up some
newspapers to stuff up our arms and legs, and it worked. Man, I was shivering
for hours, and didn't see the other guy for two days afterward..
And ain't it unusual that how no matter which direction you go, the wind is
always against you? I used to ride the tailwind of the 18 wheelers while out
on the freeway. I'd just pull up at the right rear so as to be visible in the
rear view mirror, and most of the drivers don't seem to mind at all..
> I know that Navy Pea coats work the best for the wet stuff, and they frost up when
> it's cold enough..
I used to wear a peacoat, but most of the other guys had foul weather jackets.
> I remember a Lonnnggg ass 30-40 mi stretch out to Vallejo i made one nite ( warm) with my bud on
> his way to Mare Island.
Did you take Hwy 101 up through Marin County and over Black Point Hwy 37, or
did you take the Bay Bridge and I-80 through Oakland and Richmond?
> Couldn't stay the night there, (and dog tired from riding without goggles
> or glasses from Coos Bay, the morning before.) so headed back alone and finally couldn't take it
> any more and decided to find a motel at 3 in the morning. I found one that had bulletproof glass
> and a slot in it for the clerk, ( way before it became a fad.) and parked ( honda 350). after a
> couple minutes I answered the knock on the door to find the clerk. He asked if I was from around
> there, and said that he'd let me park the bike in a locked alley, or I'd never see it again. Nice
> of him.
Hey, that's the way it *used* to be. I was en route to Lone Pine, California
from Grants Pass, Oregon and went through Carson City, Nevada. It was so
beautiful there that I decided to stay the night, and stopped at a motel.
When I asked about my bike, the lady told me that she had been allowing guys
to put machines in the rooms for years, and until someone abused it, that's
the way it would stay. The only requirement was to lay down a newspaper.
I'd almost be willing to bet that it ain't that way no more..
> Btw, on the stretch to Vallejo, I noticed a flicker out in front of me, and before I knew what
> was happening, we were splitting a line of HA, going about 100. Never forget the sound. One of
> them was a tuned up Trumpet, sweetest sound I'd ever heard..
> Took the long way back to Ptld up Hwy1 after checking out Ghiradelli Sq, and the Hungry I, and
> telegraph hill. 73, so "San Fransciscan nights" were long gone." wish I could find that cut...
I've been to Ghiradelli Square and Coit Tower, but never got to the Hungry I.
Back in the old days, we used to frequent the less desirable areas of town..
> Thanks for the exchange.
Sho' Nuff..
> I'll be around. It rains a lot up here in Big Poodle ( Portland OR) and I don't have to ride in
> it any more. I've got three $200 cars for that..
I used to live in Southern Oregon, and spent a fair amount of time in
Portland. I used to know a lot of people up there, but have only kept in
contact with one of them during the last twenty five or so years..
> Happy riding.
Thanks, but i'm currently in process of getting back on the road after a
twelve year absence and unfortunately it's progressing rather slowly..
Joe Mama
> Panhead wrote: possibly nothing.
>> Harley NEVER made oil. Neither does Revtech.
> Right you are, of course, It still doesn't "tell you" anywhere I could find..
Quite true, just as they don't make their own "Geniune HD" spark plugs..
Panhead
>
> Panhead wrote: possibly nothing.
>
> > Harley NEVER made oil. Neither does Revtech.
>
> Right you are, of course, It still doesn't "tell you" anywhere I could find..
>
> Dinosaurs are a safe fingerable source...
Dinosaurs are ALSO not the source of the lubricants we call
"petroleum based."
Cobra
You know... I was thinking about saying that to the previous
posters, as well... I just said WTF and stuck my quick response
in there...
Now, as I read back through the messages, catching up, I was
saying to myself, "why don't they cut all the extraneous comments
out"...... oh... that's the one *I* replied to!
And, yeah... '69 or '70 was what I was thinking.... just didn't
look it up exactly. One question about that though... I've always
assumed that when I hear references to "Pan-Shovel" that people
are referring to the generator shovels... but then I saw a bike w/ a
Pan front head and Shovel rear jug... threw me for a loop till I put
a little thought into just how little the bottom end changed.
Cobra
'79 FXEF
EJL63FLH
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:48:42 -0700, EJL63FLH <eric...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>
>
> Some good advice, no matter how good they *used* to be, DON'T TAKE ADVICE FROM
> SPEED FREAK MECHANICS OR ALLOW THEM TO TOUCH YOUR MACHINE..
Funny but it seems "casual" drinkers that do it as a hobby can be just as bad. They will typically come
home from work, start on your stuff, have a beer or two, meybe dinner, then a few more til they get
sleepy... Next nite, after a 12 hour day, they tend to forget where they were the nite before, and
start all over again.....
>
> Heat it with a torch with 70 weight? I think that he was grossly
> overexaggerating the situation..
Oh, hell, it would barely turn over even then,. It was the first part of February and about 40 or less
out.
>
>
> > ... a year, and 3000$ later, It was.
>
> OUCH!! I'm just glad that I do my own wrenching, cuz if it comes apart
> because of what I did, I have no one to blame but myself..
Well, nost ofthe bulk was on T&O Torque monster flywheels, keyed. S$S Super E, Auto Advance distributor
that was the reason it wouldn't kickstart till I scratched up the cylinders, and went ahead and re
ringed it, addin hydraulics. About 800$ for labor all told, besides jims gears, shafts, bearings and
three hole crankpin. Oh it was fully and well done, and looking at the conrod play, ( radial) it's
really not any looser than S$S ones I've tried after the fact. It's just not .0006 'snug' like the guy
said it would be. I was pretty steamed.
Also, the heads were gone over by Baisley, three blocks from my house, and the stuck roller was
replaced free of charge, and all else was good. They prevoius owner had trashed it inside 9000 miles,
had lightened Evo Flywheels, ( 4 1/4) with lead beat into the weight holes, and all. never broke it in,
and ran the heaviest oil he could.
I am not set up or consider myself capable of trueing the wheels, or setting up the bearing sets.
Everything else, such as the Paint, I did. I might take time to again thank Panhead for the help he
gave me in that department. For about 300$ I got a 1000$ paint job,. and the knowledge and tools to do
another,. Powder coating too was done at a shop. BTW, Macguire's# 7 is the best compound I found for
brightening up dull powder coating if it gets soiled or "foggy".
>
> Good move. Cover all of the available avenues before making a commitment..
I did a 1 grand deposit on a 2k FXD, and then after all the cam bearing problems, i cancelled it. Hell
with becoming part of a National Failure Analysis Program.
>
>
> That's why I went over to ashless dispersant aviation oil, but for anyone who
> wants to try it, DON'T USE AEROSHELL MINERAL OIL in a motorcycle..
>
I've herd that.
>
>
> I remember a ride from Grant's Pass to Portland in the wintertime, though it
> wasn't snowing. We took off in the late afternoon and by the time we got to
> Salem, we were FREEZING!! We stopped at a gas station and picked up some
> newspapers to stuff up our arms and legs, and it worked. Man, I was shivering
> for hours, and didn't see the other guy for two days afterward..
Like I said, stopping was a real bitch, cause all your muscles have to "re shivver", and you realise
how friggin cold you are..
>
>
> And ain't it unusual that how no matter which direction you go, the wind is
> always against you? I used to ride the tailwind of the 18 wheelers while out
> on the freeway. I'd just pull up at the right rear so as to be visible in the
> rear view mirror, and most of the drivers don't seem to mind at all..
I know. After letting them know what you're up to, which they seemed to know, I always took the
middle, for "gator" dodging, and wouldn't do it now..
>
>
> Did you take Hwy 101 up through Marin County and over Black Point Hwy 37, or
> did you take the Bay Bridge and I-80 through Oakland and Richmond?
Bay Bridge. It was the first time I'd seen more than 4 lanes of traffic in one way. Then from Sausalito
up through Big Sur, Bodega Bay, etc. I think I went across to 5 just before Oregon, but it's been 27
years ago..
>
>
> Thanks, but i'm currently in process of getting back on the road after a
> twelve year absence and unfortunately it's progressing rather slowly..
Well, I went damn near twenty, and just started borrowing friends' biokes about two years ago. Those
last couple years of using bikes for a necessity of transpo really did me in. I swore, no more rain
riding, hailstone scars, or frozen knees....
Pulling into the Truck Stop last nite and having to try and get my face working from the chill, and the
dried moisture from my eyeballs off my face, brought back memories..
I LOVE it.
>
Gotta run, Sopranos are on with my "weekly motivation"
EJL63FLH
>
> Dinosaurs are ALSO not the source of the lubricants we call
> "petroleum based."
Just when I thought it was safe to type......
<*0)
Joe Mama
> You know... I was thinking about saying that to the previous
> posters, as well... I just said WTF and stuck my quick response
> in there...
> Now, as I read back through the messages, catching up, I was
> saying to myself, "why don't they cut all the extraneous comments
> out"...... oh... that's the one *I* replied to!
Well, ya gotta quote to some degree, but after the quoted quotes have already
been quoted and there's nothing usable left to to quote, then people should
stop quoting and unquote the quotes..
> And, yeah... '69 or '70 was what I was thinking.... just didn't
> look it up exactly. One question about that though... I've always
> assumed that when I hear references to "Pan-Shovel" that people
> are referring to the generator shovels... but then I saw a bike w/ a
> Pan front head and Shovel rear jug... threw me for a loop till I put
> a little thought into just how little the bottom end changed.
To me, a pan-shovel is a shovel top end with a pan lower end. A motor with a
pan on one jug and shovel on the other is easy, cuz you *can* use the same
cam, but try a pan-knucklehead. I believe that it's the panhead that has an
offset rear intake lobe, and you hafta regrind two lobes for the knuckle..
My last knuckle was a 1956 pan right case machine matched to a 1964 right
case, drilled and tapped knuckle heads mounted on pan barrels, knuckle lifter
blocks, aluminum 1968 oil pump, and a special top oil vacuum reclamation
system that I designed myself by running 5/16" copper tubing tapped from the
return passage in the lifter blocks to the return passage in the barrels..
Joe Mama
>> Some good advice, no matter how good they *used* to be, DON'T TAKE ADVICE FROM
>> SPEED FREAK MECHANICS OR ALLOW THEM TO TOUCH YOUR MACHINE..
> Funny but it seems "casual" drinkers that do it as a hobby can be just as bad. They will typically come
> home from work, start on your stuff, have a beer or two, meybe dinner, then a few more til they get
> sleepy... Next nite, after a 12 hour day, they tend to forget where they were the nite before, and
> start all over again.....
I dunno. This was basicly the way I worked with my in-home repair business,
though not to such a degree, and I never had a problem picking up where I left
off. Most important, I had almost zero returns from customers..
>> Heat it with a torch with 70 weight? I think that he was grossly
>> overexaggerating the situation..
> Oh, hell, it would barely turn over even then,. It was the first part of
> February and about 40 or less out.
I think that it must have been something else, or perhaps the 40 degrees that
made the difference, cuz i've never encountered this under normal conditions
with heavy weight oil before..
> Also, the heads were gone over by Baisley, three blocks from my house,
I remember meeting Dan Baisley and his father when he was working out of his
garage. He told me that he had learned from Jerry Branch and I wanted to
have him flow my knuckle heads for me..
This was back in 1973/74 when I was living in NE Portland near Union and
Alberta. If memory serves me right, he wasn't that far away from there..
> had lightened Evo Flywheels, ( 4 1/4) with lead beat into the weight holes,
Lead in the weight holes? What was he running, brass pistons?
>> That's why I went over to ashless dispersant aviation oil, but for anyone who
>> wants to try it, DON'T USE AEROSHELL MINERAL OIL in a motorcycle..
> I've herd that.
I've been told that it eats gaskets..
>> Did you take Hwy 101 up through Marin County and over Black Point Hwy 37, or
>> did you take the Bay Bridge and I-80 through Oakland and Richmond?
> Bay Bridge. It was the first time I'd seen more than 4 lanes of traffic in one way. Then from Sausalito
> up through Big Sur, Bodega Bay, etc. I think I went across to 5 just before Oregon, but it's been 27
> years ago..
When I was young, the Bay Bridge was bi-directional on both decks. The upper
deck was for automobile traffic only, and the lower deck was for Trucks,
buses, and heavy vehicles, though autos could use it as well. There was also
an electric train that shared the lower deck on the south side of the lanes.
They took it out in the late 1950's - early 1960's and the cars sat and rotted
by the toll gate for years, and now they're sniveling about not having enough
public transportation and want to build something else..
The area wasn't so overpopulated back then and the traffic was a lot lighter..
> Gotta run, Sopranos are on with my "weekly motivation"
Twenty First Century soap operas..
EJL63FLH
> >> Heat it with a torch with 70 weight? I think that he was grossly
> >> overexaggerating the situation..
Well, I did a complete autopsy on the motor, and found several things. Mainly that the roller rocker had
skated on the rear intake. The Y tube had been replaced by a 1/4 " copper Y tube, and signs were that it
hadn't oiled in the past, probably from a plugged stock Y tube. ( 1/4 inch lines would take a lot longer to
fill up anyhow,). Also no drip tubes. When the roller peened/polished the valve stem down farther and
farther, the prevowner adjusted the pushrod longer and longer. Finally, it started boinking the top of the
pan. At the same time, a lot of stuff was happening down below. A good reputationed local shop had put the
lower end together. ( 10 yrs and 9 or 10,000 miles before I got it.) Appearantly somebody new, and not with
them long, had done a couple things. I dunno why, but the light, evo-type, 4 1/4" stroker flywheels had some
lightening holes in them that were hammered full of lead. I dunno why. Reportedly the motor rattled so bad
that it broke the speedo glass and headlite once or twice. Also, the rodset was not right. to begin with, the
punches to keep the bearing craces in place were protruding, and scored the shit out of the thrust washers.
Brass was all through the filter when I dissected it. Then, the rodset didn't measure the same thickness all
the way around, and I could see that someone had belt sanded the rear rod/thrust washer surface to try and
square it up. Well, the mixture of all those things, probably caused all kinds of shit to end up in the rear
rod bearing surface, and because the rodset had aluminum bearing cages in it, combined with his running the
heavy oil at the low temps, they started to come apart. This motor was run very hard, and when it started
making noise, the prevowner stuck 70 wt in it, trying to "quiet it down". It only made the situation worse.
The only parts that went back in the motor were the sprocket shaft, and the gearcase gears, breather, lifters
and blocks.
>
>
>
> > Also, the heads were gone over by Baisley, three blocks from my house,
>
> I remember meeting Dan Baisley and his father when he was working out of his
> garage. He told me that he had learned from Jerry Branch and I wanted to
> have him flow my knuckle heads for me..
Yeah, Now there's a new member. Dan's son. From what I can tell, he's a chip off the old blocks. He shares
the same enthusiasm for doing the best work, and being friendly and honest. At well below thirty, they've got
him welding up the roller rockers they produce there, and from what I gather, he's making his "bones" the old
school way, serving a respectably long apprenticeship. No 6 week certifications there.. I've talked to Wes,
the old man, a few times, and he's a real gem. He started working on tractors in Burns OR some 50 years ago,
and started working on Harleys, cause there was nobody else around willing to do it. Between the three
generations, I think they are a rare find.
BTW, when I brought the heads to them, they fixed the stuck roller "under warrantee" without me even asking,
since I wasn't the one that bought them, and it had been 9 years since they did them. They cleaned up the
heads, put in a new valve, re-seated and checked all the valves, and put in new oil seals, besides beading
the whole works for 200$. No complaints there at all. They were the ones that confirmed that there were only
9,000 or less miles on the motor, confirming what the previous owner told me.
I got "the basket" bike for 6 grand, a shade on the expensive side, but considering I've got a 15-18k$ bike
with the investment of about 12 large, including paint equipment, tools and shop stuff, I think I've done
alright. I've been able to bury myself in a hobby that's helped me ignore parts of my life that desperately
need ignoring right now. I play music ( pedal steel guiter) on weekends anymore, but since it's mostly a pain
in the ass after 20 or more years of fighting beer joint bands, and general bullshit, I don't feel it's much
of a "hobby" anymore. I did it for a living in the 80s, and made the bike money over the last three years. I
head out to the shop, turn on some Jazz, and have a whole different world going. Sometimes I fire it up to
get the proper amount of gas fumes to set the "atmosphere". Now, I just go lite it up, and head out when the
weather permits..
>
>
> When I was young, the Bay Bridge was bi-directional on both decks. The upper
> deck was for automobile traffic only, and the lower deck was for Trucks,
> buses, and heavy vehicles, though autos could use it as well. There was also
> an electric train that shared the lower deck on the south side of the lanes.
> They took it out in the late 1950's - early 1960's and the cars sat and rotted
> by the toll gate for years, and now they're sniveling about not having enough
> public transportation and want to build something else..
Yeah, Even in 73 I wasn't ready for the "sharing of lanes" that seemed to be the norm there in the morning.
It was nice to get over into Sausalito, and on the two lane. Hwy 1 was a beautiful ride. Maybe some day I'll
do it again..
>
Gotta run.
Day off for rain, and out to the shop to make some leather stuff, and oil the chain etc.
Later
Joe Mama
>>> Also, the heads were gone over by Baisley, three blocks from my house,
>> I remember meeting Dan Baisley and his father when he was working out of his
>> garage. He told me that he had learned from Jerry Branch and I wanted to
>> have him flow my knuckle heads for me..
> BTW, when I brought the heads to them, they fixed the stuck roller "under warrantee" without me even asking,
> since I wasn't the one that bought them, and it had been 9 years since they did them. They cleaned up the
> heads, put in a new valve, re-seated and checked all the valves, and put in new oil seals, besides beading
> the whole works for 200$. No complaints there at all.
Maybe I ought to move back to Oregon, cuz this is the kind of people I can
relate to, as I am growing more and more dissatisfied with California..
Yeah, I know. DON'T CALIFORNICATE OREGON!!
> I play music ( pedal steel guiter) on weekends anymore, but since it's mostly a pain
> in the ass after 20 or more years of fighting beer joint bands, and general bullshit,
> I don't feel it's much of a "hobby" anymore.
I play guitar myself, though only as a hobby and not professionally, but i'm
aware of the implications as whoever did the song with the following lyrics
spelled it out quite descriptively. Was it Bob Seeger?
"Here I go, out on the road again..
Here I am, up on the stage..
Here I go, playin' the star again..
Here I go, turn the page.."
> Yeah, Even in 73 I wasn't ready for the "sharing of lanes" that seemed to be the norm there in the morning.
> It was nice to get over into Sausalito, and on the two lane.
Don't expect it to be anywhere near the same, cuz after twenty eight years of
people moving into Marin and Sonoma Counties to inhabit crackerbox developer
housing tracts has overpopulated this area so much that you won't even
recognise it after so long..
IT SUCKS!!
> Hwy 1 was a beautiful ride. Maybe some day I'll do it again..
Hwy One up through Muir Beach is still about the only wilderness and rural
country area left in the Bay Area, but even though there are building
restrictions, the yuppies are paying out big bucks for subdividing properties
and building gigantic homes in the forest amongst the older existing houses
and completely ruining the unique atmosphere and personality that West Marin
once enjoyed, thanks to some local dirtbag politician who is also a developer
who also wants to build a housing tract right in the town of Point Reyes..
I don't know who coined the term "representative" for politician, but this is
the biggest deception of it all, cuz all they represent are THEMSELVES
and those who pay them off for favors..
They used to call such people TRAITORS and dealt with them accordingly..
> Gotta run.
> Day off for rain, and out to the shop to make some leather stuff, and oil the chain etc.
I'm off today as well, and I ain't gonna waste it on the computer..