954RR Recall???
Terry M
Seems like I read on this NG somewhere that there is a recall on the
954RR that pertains to the steering head or something like that. Can anyone
verify this? BTW, I get a lot of head shakes when I'm accelerating pretty
hard, but I'm wondering if this is due to the front end getting light on me.
Thanks,
Terry 02 954 RR
g3k
news:B937D76F.2E7C%mirac...@mac.com...
I read in different magazines that when they first rode the 954 they were
ALL complaining a bit of the head shake. Some recommanded a steering damper
if you were to ride a bit hard.
So maybe no recall, and just invest in a SD.
--Manu
'01 GSX-R750
'02 RC51
Rich B.
on a foreign bike is unfathomable. Or so it seems.
--
~strat81
"Terry M" <mirac...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:B937D76F.2E7C%mirac...@mac.com...
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Andrew
A recent copy of RoadRacing world mentioned that the forks on the 954RR are
some of the worst they have ever seen. Too much sticktion and no way to set
the preload properly. Dunno if this would cause headshake... Here is the
text of the article and the link.
"
Honda CBR954RR
Honda did something very strange with the RC-51 that has spilled over into
this bike. The fork springs have no internal preload on them. Ordinarily, a
fork spring will have about 15mm of internal preload, even when the preload
adjuster is backed all of the way out. When we measured the sag with a
165-pound rider, we were shocked to find 60mm of sag! This bike sagged more
under its own weight than it should have with a rider on it! I typically
like to see around 20mm of free sag, and 35mm with the rider on the bike. I
can't comment on the spring rate in this bike, because we simply couldn't
even come close to setting the sag.
This Showa fork has a new style of preload adjuster on it as well. It turns
internally, and you have to count turns, much like an Ohlins superbike fork.
This is not good in my opinion. It gives you no visual reference for your
spring preload adjustment.
There was a more serious problem with fork than the lack of preload on the
springs. This fork had horrific stiction. You can measure the stiction in a
chassis while measuring sag. Find a fully extended measurement on the fork
or shock. Then lift the chassis and let it settle gently (stuck up). Record
this measurement. Then push down on it and let it rise gently (stuck down).
Record this measurement. The distance between these two measurements is
stiction.
For Forks:
5mm is good.
10mm is a sign something is wrong.
15mm is a sign something is REALLY wrong.
For Shocks:
2mm is good
5mm is a sign something is wrong.
7mm is a sign something is REALLY wrong.
This set of forks had 15mm of stiction. Frequently, the lower fork legs will
be in a slight "V" from changing the tires and not aligned properly. I tried
to correct this on the CBR and couldn't make the stiction any better than
15mm.
I do theorize that since the springs were nearly "dead" in the fork with no
preload on them, that this may have contributed for a few millimeters of the
stiction. But that doesn't explain 15mm worth. This was the worst stiction I
have ever measured in a production fork. Ordinarily, I recommend that a
racer with this much stiction not use the forks until the problem can be
found and repaired!
A spring without preload on it will also "feel" dead. I pinned the preload
adjuster and it didn't really do much. I moved the rebound adjuster (top of
the fork) to 2-½ turns out from full hard, and set the compression to 1 turn
out.
The CBR954RR has the Honda "HMAS" damping in it. This fork had no feel in it
at all. It didn't feel like it had springs, and it didn't feel like it
damped. It is the worst feeling fork I have ever pushed on. It is by far,
the weakest link in any of the suspension systems of any of these bikes.
The shock spring seemed to be of a decent rate, just slightly soft, and we
got decent sag on the #4 ramp position. It had way too much low-speed
rebound damping, and we had the screw (bottom of the shock) set to 3-½ turns
out. The compression adjuster didn't really do anything, which is typical of
Showa street shocks. We set it to ½-turn out.
This bike was wobbly when going fast. This is easy to explain. While the
geometry numbers are very conservative for racing use, the problem lies
again, in the fork spring preload. This bike has so much sag that when the
bike is riding down the road, it is more than halfway through its travel. At
this point, the bike has very little rake or trail. Without trail, you have
no stability. So basically, this bike is going to take a beating in the
magazines for not having about 10 cents worth of additional spacer on the
fork spring! Unbelievable.
This condition will be severely aggravated under braking, as the fork will
only be working in the last 15% of the travel, which is taken up by a stiff
hydraulic bottoming mechanism. For sport riding, this is not a good
situation, since there is no functional travel left to absorb bumps in the
pavement.
To upgrade this fork, you will need to change the compression and rebound
pistons (to remove the HMAS) and have appropriate springs installed for your
weight. (With the right preload, of course!)
The frame does have a ride height adjuster, which will be great for some
street riders. It is not at all convenient for racing use. For track use,
regardless of how the shock is built, the compression adjuster will just be
useless, so I suggest you change to an aftermarket shock.
With the right fork springs installed, you could raise the back of the bike
up to gain about 1.5 degrees of swingarm angle (to get to about 12.5
degrees), and leave the forks at the stock height. This would bring the rake
and trail down tighter, and make the bike just about right for racing use.
Note: You definitely would not want to raise the back of the bike before
fixing the fork springs!"
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/Include.asp?include=../issues/m
ay02/sus.htm
Andrew
00 Daytona
Michael Fell
<ballasri@REMOVETHIS!shu.edu> wrote:
>Can't be. Group consensus here is that only Buells have recalls. A recall
>on a foreign bike is unfathomable. Or so it seems.
Where is Troy? Hey Troy what is this a Honda with a recall? You got
to be kidding me. The Bullet proof honda with the exploding clutch
has a recall. Well it is only the streeing head bearings anyway. I
don't think it will make the honda handle any worse.:-) Pretty funny
Buell has not had a recall in almost two years and now Honda has
another one. Buells are getting better and hondas are getting bad. I
like it.:-) BTW, here is the Honda service bulletin for the guys
steering head bearing problem.:
http://www.rrzone.com/929rr/recall/954steeringbear.pdf
Print it out and bring it in to your dealer with you. Geez the funny
thing is this is from May and I have not heard of it until now. Now
if this were a Buell recall or service bulletin (Whats the
difference?) I think it would have been posted here a couple of
hundred times.:-)
Mike
Michael Fell
Mike
mike
> Where is Troy? Hey Troy what is this a Honda with a recall
yeah, its funny... honda makes a gazillion different models, and has 1
recall. byooull has like 3 models and 200 recalls.
Dan Carter
> yeah, its funny... honda makes a gazillion different models, and has 1
> recall. byooull has like 3 models and 200 recalls.
Not to mention that there are recalls and there are recalls. Honda
recalled early 929s because a short fuel hose made it difficult to
remove the tank. Buell has recalled bikes because the back half was
likely to separate from the front half at an inopportune time.
--
Dan Carter, San Luis Obispo, CA
Desmoface
>some of the worst they have ever seen. Too much sticktion and no way to set
>the preload properly.
And most of the brit mags rate the 954 better then the r1 and
gixxer1k...RoadRacing world has been known to show bias towards suzuki..I think
you'll find the editor races suzuki's in his own race team??
Steve
01 929
01 ex2fity
Terry M
wrote on 6/20/02 7:02 PM:
Ok, thanks to everyone who replied, Looks like I'll be visiting my dealer
real soon.
Terry 02 954 RR
Troy The Troll
"Michael Fell" <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:u0t4hugqrd52p04ug...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:36:41 -0400, "Rich B."
> <ballasri@REMOVETHIS!shu.edu> wrote:
>
> >Can't be. Group consensus here is that only Buells have recalls. A
recall
> >on a foreign bike is unfathomable. Or so it seems.
>
> Where is Troy? Hey Troy what is this a Honda with a recall?
Dunno Mike. Mine got recalled twice, once for a clutch hub and again for a
longer fuel line. Pretty nasty recalls, especially compared to those little
Buell items like engines, frames, swingarms, little stuff like that.
> You got
> to be kidding me. The Bullet proof honda with the exploding clutch
> has a recall.
The clutch never exploded Mike, apparently when drag racing and slipping the
clutch it would "shudder". Yep...and this happened while the throttle was
pinned and the clutch was being slipped during a high power launch, you
know, one of those things a Buell CAN'T do because it doesn't make enough
power to hurt ANYTHING...or go very fast.
> Well it is only the streeing head bearings anyway. I
> don't think it will make the honda handle any worse.:-)
My Honda handles fine Mike, a point you haven't been willing to let prove to
you.
>Pretty funny
> Buell has not had a recall in almost two years and now Honda has
> another one. Buells are getting better and hondas are getting bad. I
> like it.:-) BTW, here is the Honda service bulletin for the guys
> steering head bearing problem.:
>
> http://www.rrzone.com/929rr/recall/954steeringbear.pdf
>
> Print it out and bring it in to your dealer with you. Geez the funny
> thing is this is from May and I have not heard of it until now. Now
> if this were a Buell recall or service bulletin (Whats the
> difference?) I think it would have been posted here a couple of
> hundred times.:-)
Thats because Buell has problems like a locking front wheel, much more of a
problem than clutch "shudder".
Andrew
"Desmoface" <desm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020620213916...@mb-ca.aol.com...
Oh man read the article, they go off on the GSXR-1K forks too...
--
mike
a
> problem than clutch "shudder".
not a "problem"... its a "feature"
Michael Fell
Honda has more then one recall. You want me to post them?
Mike
Michael Fell
I guess poor front suspension and steering bearings are not a safety
hazard? Sure the Japanese Showa shock that was standard on the Buell
had a chance to break in turn causing a serious problem for the rider.
I have not heard of this occuring although I would guess it has
happened. Also, the shock just doesn't break. If you were to look at
the shock eyes you would see the wear. Of course if you don't know
that the shock is faulty then you would not look. If you did know you
would have had it replaced like I did. Also, if you think that
Japanese manufacturers don't have serious recall issues you are
mistaken. I know Kawsaki for sure had something pertaining to an
exploding clutch which would then sieze the motor. I would call that
pretty dangerous. If you would like I can post recalls to Japanese
model bikes including hondas or i can even mention the faulty front
break pads that came on the R1 a couple or years ago. No bike is
perfect.
Mike
Michael Fell
wrote:
>
>"Michael Fell" <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:u0t4hugqrd52p04ug...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:36:41 -0400, "Rich B."
>> <ballasri@REMOVETHIS!shu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >Can't be. Group consensus here is that only Buells have recalls. A
>recall
>> >on a foreign bike is unfathomable. Or so it seems.
>>
>> Where is Troy? Hey Troy what is this a Honda with a recall?
>
>Dunno Mike. Mine got recalled twice, once for a clutch hub and again for a
>longer fuel line. Pretty nasty recalls, especially compared to those little
>Buell items like engines, frames, swingarms, little stuff like that.
Mine was recalled for the rear shock which was fixed before I even put
it on the road. That would be one recall to how many is that you
have? Oh yes that would be two. Yes two. One more then my Buell.
Pretty interesting.:-)
Oh really Troy? I take it you are speaking of Scotts brake problem
that was caused because he let the bike sit around his garage for a
few years. I mean his ride had 1000 miles on it. Being it is a 98
model that averages out to be a whole 250 miles a years. Sorry Troy
that was owner neglect not a Buell issue. His bike was recalled and
according to Scott himself the problem was taken care of. My brake is
not locked up. You know why? Because I ride my bike and I check my
fluid levels. I have the shop manual for my bike. It is called
general preventive maintenance. I would bet he let his calipers get
all grunged up and in turn it froze. That kind of stuff happens if you
don't ride your bike and fail too maintain it. BTW, Yamaha had faulty
brake pads on the R1. You know about them? The pads would
mysteriously fall off when you were least expecting it. I would say
that could be pretty dangerous.
Mike
mike
> I guess poor front suspension and steering bearings are not a safety
> hazard
compared to a front brake pin that could shift at any time and become wedged
in the front disc? thats already happened to one poster on this motorcycle
microcosm that is usenet? ill haveta think about that one...
Troy The Troll
> >> Where is Troy? Hey Troy what is this a Honda with a recall?
> >
> >Dunno Mike. Mine got recalled twice, once for a clutch hub and again for
a
> >longer fuel line. Pretty nasty recalls, especially compared to those
little
> >Buell items like engines, frames, swingarms, little stuff like that.
>
> Mine was recalled for the rear shock which was fixed before I even put
> it on the road. That would be one recall to how many is that you
> have? Oh yes that would be two. Yes two. One more then my Buell.
> Pretty interesting.:-)
You are a wild and crazy guy Mike! Now if you would just learn how to RIDE
that undependable, slower than a stone Buell maybe we could converse about
something other than how Buell manages to make so little power with so much
displacement.
> >Thats because Buell has problems like a locking front wheel, much more of
a
> >problem than clutch "shudder".
>
> Oh really Troy? I take it you are speaking of Scotts brake problem
> that was caused because he let the bike sit around his garage for a
> few years. I mean his ride had 1000 miles on it. Being it is a 98
> model that averages out to be a whole 250 miles a years. Sorry Troy
> that was owner neglect not a Buell issue.
Oh I see. Now, not using a Buell is enough to cause it to do things which
can get the rider killed? Well, thats a new excuse for never parking a
machine in the garage, hell, or even turning it off!
>His bike was recalled and
> according to Scott himself the problem was taken care of. My brake is
> not locked up. You know why? Because I ride my bike and I check my
> fluid levels. I have the shop manual for my bike. It is called
> general preventive maintenance. I would bet he let his calipers get
> all grunged up and in turn it froze.
Yep..riding it 250 miles a year will sure destroy a Buell, won't it Mike?
Hell, here I was worried that too many track days would cause my Honda to
only have 250,000 mile life expectancy rather than a 600,000 mile life
expectancy and it turns out I'm wrong! The worst thing I can do it PARK the
thing, and then...<GASP>...turn it off!
> That kind of stuff happens if you
> don't ride your bike and fail too maintain it.
Really? I'm hardly the worlds best "maintainer" and yet I've never had this
problem in some 20 years of riding Mike, and I've let PLENTY of machines
sit, all winter in fact. Sometimes, all YEAR! My Kawasaki sat for a year,
once started it didn't lock wheels, nothing fell off, it didn't require a
complete rebuild by the factory. Whats the deal with this? According to your
theory I should have needed a complete "general preventative maintenance and
repair" facility running full time to fix it.
NOT!
> BTW, Yamaha had faulty
> brake pads on the R1. You know about them? The pads would
> mysteriously fall off when you were least expecting it. I would say
> that could be pretty dangerous.
>
Well, maybe they fall off only after you ride it hard, you know, the way you
CAN'T.
Have you ever ridden an R1 Mike?
mike
> Oh really Troy? I take it you are speaking of Scotts brake problem
> that was caused because he let the bike sit around his garage for a
> few years.
well, i guess that would cause a bikes brakes to lock while riding down the
street. if its a buell.
> I mean his ride had 1000 miles on it. Being it is a 98
> model that averages out to be a whole 250 miles a years. Sorry Troy
> that was owner neglect not a Buell issue. His bike was recalled and
> according to Scott himself the problem was taken care of.
he *thought* the problem was taken care of. im guessing it wasnt.
> My brake is
> not locked up. You know why?
because you took your bike in for the recall, and the dealer actually
*fixed* it?
> Because I ride my bike and I check my
> fluid levels. I have the shop manual for my bike. It is called
> general preventive maintenance.
let your fixed bike sit in the garage for 2 years. then take it out for a
spin. the brakes wont lock up.
> I would bet he let his calipers get
> all grunged up and in turn it froze. That kind of stuff happens if you
> don't ride your bike and fail too maintain it.
no, it doesnt. you may have a little moisture in the system, causing a
spongy lever, but it wont cause the brakes to lock up on your way home from
a ride when youd been using the brakes perfectly normally the rest of the
day. brakes just dont lock up on their own... period.
Brent B
repalce the head bearings with 929 bearings.
Recall has to do with safety - as in death..
This is a Drivibility issue that is only really pertaining to racers. Most
dealers do not even know about it yet.
Here is more info:
http://www.rrzone.com/929rr/recallpage.htm
"Terry M" <mirac...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:B937FD15.2E91%mirac...@mac.com...
Michael Fell
We are not sure why his brake locked up yet. Scott will keep us
posted. I mean if you can figure out his brake problem without seeing
his bike I would say you are the best mechanic that ever lived.
Hopefully Scott will keep us posted on his situation.
Mike
Dirt
That particular article was written by Max MacAllister of
Traxxion Dynamics. They contract him to do suspension component
reviews. He generally hates all OEM motorcycle sportbike
suspensions except for the GSXR 750.
-Dirt-
Dirt
>> You got
>> to be kidding me. The Bullet proof honda with the
>> exploding clutch has a recall.
>
> The clutch never exploded Mike, apparently when drag racing
> and slipping the clutch it would "shudder". Yep...and this
> happened while the throttle was pinned and the clutch was
> being slipped during a high power launch, you know, one of
> those things a Buell CAN'T do because it doesn't make enough
> power to hurt ANYTHING...or go very fast.
If I remember correctly, the recall spoke of clutch hub failure
under severe racing starts. I rode with somebody who was trying
to clutch up a 2nd gear wheelie on his 929 (yes, this is an
extreme example) and his hub grenaded.
-Dirt-
Troy The Troll
> under severe racing starts. I rode with somebody who was trying
> to clutch up a 2nd gear wheelie on his 929 (yes, this is an
> extreme example) and his hub grenaded.
>
> -Dirt-
I remember someone doing drag strip launches when it started "shuddering",
his didn't grenade but when he tore it down it was cracked.
Ed Grant
<f4...@attbi.com> wrote:
My 929 is in the shop for a new clutch and a new battery, all under
warrenty. I've NOT had any problems with this bike except for the
battery not holding a charge but then I don't do 10000 rpm launches
either.
So how does the 929 front suspension compare with the 954? Did
Honda cut some corners to save weight on the 954?
--
Ed Grant
'95 ST1100, '01 CBR929, '02 V-Strom
remove underlines to reply by e-mail
Dirt
> My 929 is in the shop for a new clutch and a new battery,
> all under warrenty. I've NOT had any problems with this bike
> except for the battery not holding a charge but then I don't
> do 10000 rpm launches either.
>
> So how does the 929 front suspension compare with the 954?
> Did Honda cut some corners to save weight on the 954?
I can confirm that soft springs will make the bike unstable. A
previous post in this thread mentions nearly zero internal
preload in the 954 forks, which leads to too much sag, which
leads to too little trail, which leads to instability. The same
thing happened on my 929 with me on it. I couldn't get less
than about 2" sag with me on the bike with the stock springs
and the preload adjusters maxed. The bike felt decidedly
twitchy because the front end sat so low. It also bottomed
profusely under hard braking (which was a partial contributor
to a rather nasty crash). Once I replaced the stock springs
with 0.95kg/mm springs I got the sag into the 1.25" range. The
instability magically disappeared and the forks almost
completely stopped bottoming under hard braking. If the 954 has
even LESS internal preload, I can imagine how twitchy it must
seem.
-Dirt-
Erik Astrup
Picky picky picky. ;)
Michael Fell
No way. How can this be? A honda with an exploding clutch that
shudders. LOL, How unusual. I power launch my bike by goosing the
throttle. Perhaps this is why my clutch has not exploded. I think
honda has a patent on the exploding clutch anyway.:-)
Mike
Phil Scott
>
>"Michael Fell" <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:u0t4hugqrd52p04ug...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:36:41 -0400, "Rich B."
>> <ballasri@REMOVETHIS!shu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >Can't be. Group consensus here is that only Buells have recalls. A
>recall
>> >on a foreign bike is unfathomable. Or so it seems.
>>
>> Where is Troy? Hey Troy what is this a Honda with a recall?
>
>Dunno Mike. Mine got recalled twice, once for a clutch hub and again for a
>longer fuel line. Pretty nasty recalls, especially compared to those little
>Buell items like engines, frames, swingarms, little stuff like that.
>
>
>
>> You got
>> to be kidding me. The Bullet proof honda with the exploding clutch
>> has a recall.
>
>The clutch never exploded Mike, apparently when drag racing and slipping the
>clutch it would "shudder". Yep...and this happened while the throttle was
>pinned and the clutch was being slipped during a high power launch, you
>know, one of those things a Buell CAN'T do because it doesn't make enough
>power to hurt ANYTHING...or go very fast.
The Buell has BALANCED power.... anybody can make a machine that rips out
clutches.
Phil Scott
Troy The Troll
> clutches.
>
> Phil Scott
Except Buell. He is so good at balanced power he forgot to make any peak
power. Which translates to...stone.
Larry xlax Lovisone
Terry M wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> Seems like I read on this NG somewhere that there is a recall on the
> 954RR that pertains to the steering head or something like that. Can anyone
> verify this? BTW, I get a lot of head shakes when I'm accelerating pretty
> hard, but I'm wondering if this is due to the front end getting light on me.
Wait a darn minute...
What's interesting about Honda's Product Update under a Service Bulletin
heading... besides the new bearing... is the old steering stem is replaced with
a new steering stem... could it mean the old one was machined too small allowing
the top of the stem to walk about in the upper steering head bearing??? if
there has been a slight error in tolerances at this critical junction... left
unchecked... it could induce a wobble under acceleration and may even progress
into a dreaded tank slapper if the front wheel is upset by either a pot hole or
a bump...
Enough speculation... I rest my lips... it's up to Honda to spelled out exactly
what provoke this extensive product update... but as always... there is
silence...
Cut my wrist and I bleed Honda red in technicolor... but sometimes... and this
is one example... their silence really raises my ire...
Larry L
(have a wheelie RICE day and remember... if it wasn't for us the
fast lane would rust)
94 RC45 #2
V4's are music to the seat of my pants
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/
Michael Fell
wrote:
>> The Buell has BALANCED power.... anybody can make a machine that rips out
I get a lot of smiles out of my stone.:-)
Mike
Phil Scott
With the Buell firebolt, under 400 llbs and a center of gravity a good 6" lower
that the rice rockets..and *tearing up tracks nation wide, I am surprised you
are still going on here about peakie power.... its a *broad power band that is
enabling the Buell and the Buell motorcycle company to do so well and grow so
fast ( several hundred percent a year, as the other makes are doing well to gain
2 or 3%)
live with it. Push rods will *always be better than those rockerless
motors...anything to save 50 cents in material with those foreign bikes
apparently...
Also.... and you have STUDIOUSLY *avoided the issue... Buells get called in for
FACTORY UPGRADES...FREE!... and regularly! ... the rice rockets seldom ever get
that kind of attention... it could blow up in your lap for all Kawasaki
cares...they will *not even warranty many of their machines!
THAT should be a clue for you.
What YOU DO NOT realize is that after the war the japanese hatched a *secret
plot to DESTROY the youth of america..and to prevent propagation of the best
America had to offer by blowing the balls off of its motorcyclists...with
exploding clutches and please notice they put *no scatter shield under the seat!
Go check!
ITS PLASTIC!
Look... there is not much else I can do for you but present the facts... if you
are not bright enough to see these its not my problem or Eric Buells problem or
Mikes problem.
Phil Scott
Buellcatti, with 28" seat height, wide bars, 375 lbs dry. 3/4 fairing..and from
what I can tell so far it might handle.
Rotax 600 flat tracker still hangin by a come-along and a chain fall...but all
the parts are in and mostly back on the bike.
>
>
Troy The Troll
> >Except Buell. He is so good at balanced power he forgot to make any peak
> >power. Which translates to...stone.
>
> With the Buell firebolt, under 400 llbs and a center of gravity a good 6"
lower
> that the rice rockets..
Says you. The Buell Firebolt, with a tank of gas onboard, is alot closer to
450 pounds than 400 Phil, dry the thing weighs 429 pounds or thereabouts.
>and *tearing up tracks nation wide, I am surprised you
> are still going on here about peakie power....
Nothing wrong with peak power, just go talk to Gixxer1000 pilots and see how
they like their bikes.
>its a *broad power band that is
> enabling the Buell and the Buell motorcycle company to do so well and grow
so
> fast ( several hundred percent a year, as the other makes are doing well
to gain
> 2 or 3%)
Several hundred percent a year? Well now, that is interesting. I wonder if
that statistic is as much crap as your dry weight. Care to provide a link to
some sales figures to back it up? or does this fall into the same category
as pictures of your alleged bike?
> Push rods will *always be better than those rockerless
> motors...anything to save 50 cents in material with those foreign bikes
> apparently...
>
Tell it to Formula 1 machines, cage or bike.
> Also.... and you have STUDIOUSLY *avoided the issue... Buells get called
in for
> FACTORY UPGRADES...FREE!... and regularly! ... the rice rockets seldom
ever get
> that kind of attention... it could blow up in your lap for all Kawasaki
> cares...they will *not even warranty many of their machines!
Factory upgrades? You mean to fix things like the swingarm so it doesn't
unhinge? What good is factory upgrade if it doesn't DO anything? Do they
install another 20HP that they forgot the first time? Repair brake master
cylinders which may or may not lock the front wheel solid?
>
> THAT should be a clue for you.
>
It is. As best I can tell, my Honda was built right, right outta the box.
> What YOU DO NOT realize is that after the war the japanese hatched a
*secret
> plot to DESTROY the youth of america..and to prevent propagation of the
best
> America had to offer by blowing the balls off of its motorcyclists...with
> exploding clutches and please notice they put *no scatter shield under the
seat!
> Go check!
>
Sounds like your Scientology crap Phil. Except of course your SERIOUS about
that right?
Larry xlax Lovisone
>
>
> Rotax 600 flat tracker still hangin by a come-along and a chain fall...but all
> the parts are in and mostly back on the bike.
Phil...
Did you see Nicky... Tommy... and Roger Lee Hayden scored 1 2 3 respectfully on
Japan's latest MX machines during a flat track even??? Chris Carr could only manage
4th pushing the old Rotax flat tracker for all it's worth...
Nicky traded up to Honda's sweet little CRF 450R... let me know when you're ready to
step up... I think a street legal version would make a great project this winter...
http://www.amasuperbike.com/011006a.htm
Michael Fell
wrote:
>
>> >Except Buell. He is so good at balanced power he forgot to make any peak
>> >power. Which translates to...stone.
>>
>> With the Buell firebolt, under 400 llbs and a center of gravity a good 6"
>lower
>> that the rice rockets..
>
>Says you. The Buell Firebolt, with a tank of gas onboard, is alot closer to
>450 pounds than 400 Phil, dry the thing weighs 429 pounds or thereabouts.
Alright time to set Troy straight on the FB weight issue. Troy Buell
did not lie about the weight of the FB. They used the same weight
method as the Japanese. They wieghed the bike dry. No oil, fork oil,
battery, gas, ect and it weighed 385. The same can be said for a
Yamaha R1 as Yamihaha uses the method of dry weight for their bikes as
well. So figure a ridable R1 actual weight is close to 450 lbs. or
more since you have to add anti freeze to the equation. Sounds like a
tank right? If you want actual bike weight as ridden you would check
out the weight as Ducati lists it. Here is an example:
http://www.ducati.com/bikes/my2002/ducatiModel.jhtml?part=chassis&modelName=900ie
Scroll down the page after you check out the weight. Ducatis. Now
those are light bikes.
>
>
>>and *tearing up tracks nation wide, I am surprised you
>> are still going on here about peakie power....
>
>Nothing wrong with peak power, just go talk to Gixxer1000 pilots and see how
>they like their bikes.
>
>
>>its a *broad power band that is
>> enabling the Buell and the Buell motorcycle company to do so well and grow
>so
>> fast ( several hundred percent a year, as the other makes are doing well
>to gain
>> 2 or 3%)
>
>Several hundred percent a year? Well now, that is interesting. I wonder if
>that statistic is as much crap as your dry weight. Care to provide a link to
>some sales figures to back it up? or does this fall into the same category
>as pictures of your alleged bike?
>
>
>> Push rods will *always be better than those rockerless
>> motors...anything to save 50 cents in material with those foreign bikes
>> apparently...
>>
>
>Tell it to Formula 1 machines, cage or bike.
Why? Who cares. I don't race on the street do you?
>
>
>> Also.... and you have STUDIOUSLY *avoided the issue... Buells get called
>in for
>> FACTORY UPGRADES...FREE!... and regularly! ... the rice rockets seldom
>ever get
>> that kind of attention... it could blow up in your lap for all Kawasaki
>> cares...they will *not even warranty many of their machines!
>
>Factory upgrades? You mean to fix things like the swingarm so it doesn't
>unhinge? What good is factory upgrade if it doesn't DO anything? Do they
>install another 20HP that they forgot the first time? Repair brake master
>cylinders which may or may not lock the front wheel solid?
Hey Troy the swing arm never unhinged on a Buell. The problem was the
rear shock. If you are going to bash Buells at least get your
information right. Troy any Buell owner can bolt on 20 hp with little
money as most do. Some guys are getting 120 at the rear wheel. The
thing is what good is it to do wheelies in all five gears? Don't get
me wrong it would be very fun just as long as you don't kill yourself.
I saw one of them stunter squids yesterday going up and a down the
street at 95 mph in a 35 mph zone. No helmet or leathers, Cars all
over the place. He was doing wheelies, laying rubber, riding on the
handle bars ,skitching and such. Of course he was riding a honda.
>>
>> THAT should be a clue for you.
>>
>
>It is. As best I can tell, my Honda was built right, right outta the box.
Well good for you. You can have it exploding clutches and all. I will
take good old fashioned American craftsmanship over a honda any day.
>
>
>> What YOU DO NOT realize is that after the war the japanese hatched a
>*secret
>> plot to DESTROY the youth of america..and to prevent propagation of the
>best
>> America had to offer by blowing the balls off of its motorcyclists...with
>> exploding clutches and please notice they put *no scatter shield under the
>seat!
>> Go check!
>>
>
>Sounds like your Scientology crap Phil. Except of course your SERIOUS about
>that right?
Since that Japanese could not beat us with guns they figured they
would do it economically. We did rebuild them after WWII. They got
new manufacturing facilities while the US still used its old out dated
manufacturing plants. I think this is how they got somewhat close to
us in some areas technologically. So with that said without us they
would be manufacturing mopeds and selling us rice and i bet we would
still have a trade deficeit.:-)
Mike
Troy The Troll
> On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:36:59 GMT, "Troy The Troll" <f4...@attbi.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >> >Except Buell. He is so good at balanced power he forgot to make any
peak
> >> >power. Which translates to...stone.
> >>
> >> With the Buell firebolt, under 400 llbs and a center of gravity a good
6"
> >lower
> >> that the rice rockets..
> >
> >Says you. The Buell Firebolt, with a tank of gas onboard, is alot closer
to
> >450 pounds than 400 Phil, dry the thing weighs 429 pounds or thereabouts.
>
> Alright time to set Troy straight on the FB weight issue. Troy Buell
> did not lie about the weight of the FB. They used the same weight
> method as the Japanese. They wieghed the bike dry. No oil, fork oil,
> battery, gas, ect and it weighed 385. The same can be said for a
> Yamaha R1 as Yamihaha uses the method of dry weight for their bikes as
> well. So figure a ridable R1 actual weight is close to 450 lbs. or
> more since you have to add anti freeze to the equation. Sounds like a
> tank right? If you want actual bike weight as ridden you would check
> out the weight as Ducati lists it. Here is an example:
Mike, I have consistently maintained that ALL manufacturers lie about
weight. My beef recently is that Phil was wrong in his numbers, people
running around quoting manufacturer dry weights, like you, are just being
silly. I never said an R1 weighed 380 pounds, I know better.
> >
> >> Push rods will *always be better than those rockerless
> >> motors...anything to save 50 cents in material with those foreign bikes
> >> apparently...
> >>
> >
> >Tell it to Formula 1 machines, cage or bike.
>
> Why? Who cares. I don't race on the street do you?
No one mentioned racing on the street Mike, what does that have to do with
Buells power delivery vs say a Bandit 1200?
Phil implied that pushrod engines make better power than non pushrod
engines, I implied that non pushrod engines make LOTS of power. And
something like a Bandit 1200 probably makes WONDERFUL power, better than a
Buell I'm betting. And it will still run the quarter under 11.5 seconds,
which the Buell won't.
> >Factory upgrades? You mean to fix things like the swingarm so it doesn't
> >unhinge? What good is factory upgrade if it doesn't DO anything? Do they
> >install another 20HP that they forgot the first time? Repair brake master
> >cylinders which may or may not lock the front wheel solid?
>
> Hey Troy the swing arm never unhinged on a Buell. The problem was the
> rear shock. If you are going to bash Buells at least get your
> information right. Troy any Buell owner can bolt on 20 hp with little
> money as most do. Some guys are getting 120 at the rear wheel.
Really? Wow Mike, I'm impressed! Almost as much power as some of the
Japanese V-twins, stock! Thats quite an accomplishment, doing that to a
Buell engine and not having it grenade between your legs after 200 miles.
> The
> thing is what good is it to do wheelies in all five gears?
Darned if I know.
> Don't get
> me wrong it would be very fun just as long as you don't kill yourself.
> I saw one of them stunter squids yesterday going up and a down the
> street at 95 mph in a 35 mph zone. No helmet or leathers, Cars all
> over the place. He was doing wheelies, laying rubber, riding on the
> handle bars ,skitching and such. Of course he was riding a honda.
>
So squids only ride Hondas now? And ex-Hardley fans who want to be "sporty"
ride Buells maybe? Slowly, as befits the abilities of exceptional Hardley
riders in general?
> Since that Japanese could not beat us with guns they figured they
> would do it economically.
Tell it to their stock market.
>We did rebuild them after WWII. They got
> new manufacturing facilities while the US still used its old out dated
> manufacturing plants. I think this is how they got somewhat close to
> us in some areas technologically. So with that said without us they
> would be manufacturing mopeds and selling us rice and i bet we would
> still have a trade deficeit.:-)
>
Mike, you sound like a borderline racist sometimes. But then so do I, I
discriminate against chestless women.
Phil Scott
wrote:
>>
>
>>
>>
>> Rotax 600 flat tracker still hangin by a come-along and a chain fall...but all
>> the parts are in and mostly back on the bike.
>
>Phil...
>Did you see Nicky... Tommy... and Roger Lee Hayden scored 1 2 3 respectfully on
>Japan's latest MX machines during a flat track even??? Chris Carr could only manage
>4th pushing the old Rotax flat tracker for all it's worth...
You are mentioning *moto cross names primarily here, not flat tracker names...
the Rotax is NOT a moto cross bike... you don't see too many rotax's on MX
tracks unnless its their 250 two stroke in an ATK frame...Rotax 600's dominate
in desert racing though and until the 600 class was eliminated in the 600 flat
track class. ..with the $2,500 splayed valve head the 600's put out 80 hp or
more... the lower end in those motors is bullet proof..
for MX you dont need either the weight or the HP.. so the 600's dont appear on
MC tracks. but Rotax's 250 two stroke does...it gets so so reviews.
ALso, pushing it doesnt work well you have to run the motor.
Phil Scott
Troy The Troll
"Phil Scott" <phils...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d153abd...@news.tdl.com...
> On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:55:15 GMT, Larry xlax Lovisone
<nett...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Rotax 600 flat tracker still hangin by a come-along and a chain
fall...but all
> >> the parts are in and mostly back on the bike.
> >
> >Phil...
> >Did you see Nicky... Tommy... and Roger Lee Hayden scored 1 2 3
respectfully on
> >Japan's latest MX machines during a flat track even??? Chris Carr could
only manage
> >4th pushing the old Rotax flat tracker for all it's worth...
>
>
> You are mentioning *moto cross names primarily here, not flat tracker
names...
> the Rotax is NOT a moto cross bike
Phil, your "non-bikeyness" is showing again. The race he was talking about
was NOT a motocross event. Don't you pay attention at all? The names he
mentioned, Nicky,Tommy,and Roger are all ROAD RACERS who were FLAT TRACKING
you silly anti-scientologist nut.
Phil Scott
Well it doesnt seem like these three were 1,2,3 in an AMA national half or mile
dirt oval event because these are not even in those point standings ..unless I
am behind the times on the issue. Maybe exlax will post a url clarifying this
issue.
All this is not to say that a japanese mfgrs couldnt make a winning flat track
motor. I think they can. also the italians etc. Its just the fine nuances of
flat tracking are the keys, very tricky frame issues..off center geometry, flex
isues etc...as it relates to power sliding that are not known by most japanese
firms but have been highly developed by HD and its riders for almost a century
now... its a bitch to beat them on a dirt oval even with their old motor
design... when that is not sufficient as in the 600 class they went to rotax and
still won... challenged significantly only by other american flat tracker
builders Ron Wood, TLC, Jay Wright in Colorado and ATK....all runing the rotax
598cc single.
Why haven't more american builders used japanese motors? The lower end in the
rotax is bullet proof.. the japanese bikes lower ends are not as a rule, those
are consumer quality motors not pro race quality motors, the Rotax is a pro race
quality motor, if you have ever seen the inside of one you would see that...
they gleam like jewels inside. .. the bearings and journals are massive.
There should be some husqvarna competition though coming in shortly, but the
frame builders for those are not on the inside loop with established flat track
builders..so thier shit is not going to handle flawlessly in a power slide you
see.
thats bad.
Phil Scott
>
>
>
>
Dan Carter
> All this is not to say that a japanese mfgrs couldnt make a winning flat track
> motor. I think they can. also the italians etc. Its just the fine nuances of
> flat tracking are the keys, very tricky frame issues..off center geometry, flex
> isues etc...as it relates to power sliding that are not known by most japanese
> firms but have been highly developed by HD and its riders for almost a century
> now... its a bitch to beat them on a dirt oval even with their old motor
> design...
Honda built and raced a very successful flat-tracker. I believe Bubba
Shobert won a national championship on one. That's where Honda learned
Big Bang theory, ISTR.
But, because they utilized an engine design developed in the *second*
half of the twentieth century--with camshafts IN THE CYLINDER HEAD, if
you can imagine such a godforsaken kludge--Harley successfully lobbied
to impose a weight penalty on them. I vaguely recall that they had to
strap a 50lb sack of cement to the bike, but I could be wrong about
that. ;-)
--
Dan Carter, San Luis Obispo, CA
Michael Fell
>There should be some husqvarna competition though coming in shortly, but the
>frame builders for those are not on the inside loop with established flat track
>builders..so thier shit is not going to handle flawlessly in a power slide you
>see.
>
Well since Husky will enter the picture now you got the Italians
involved since Husky is Italian owned.
Mike
Phil Scott
Yes thats raighct...occasionally someone riding an inferior machine does win
some races against american flat trackers.. but then they dissapear from the
scene. I think its all that crap in the cylinder heads, makes these pushrodless
bikes top heavy.
Phil Scott
Phil Scott
Man thats going to be a mess, all those forners jabbering around in the pits
with their bikes all kludged up with plumbing and plastic crap, clogging up the
turns so you have to pass them on the outside. .. probably smell like pizza
going down the straight too.
the americans wille eat them alive on the Woods and HD factory machines.
Phil Scott
>
>
>Mike
Erik Astrup
>Phil Scott wrote:
>
>> All this is not to say that a japanese mfgrs couldnt make a winning flat track
>> motor. I think they can. also the italians etc. Its just the fine nuances of
>> flat tracking are the keys, very tricky frame issues..off center geometry, flex
>> isues etc...as it relates to power sliding that are not known by most japanese
>> firms but have been highly developed by HD and its riders for almost a century
>> now... its a bitch to beat them on a dirt oval even with their old motor
>> design...
>
>Honda built and raced a very successful flat-tracker. I believe Bubba
>Shobert won a national championship on one. That's where Honda learned
>Big Bang theory, ISTR.
Yep. I watched Bubba win on that thing at the San Jose Mile.
>But, because they utilized an engine design developed in the *second*
>half of the twentieth century--with camshafts IN THE CYLINDER HEAD, if
>you can imagine such a godforsaken kludge--Harley successfully lobbied
>to impose a weight penalty on them. I vaguely recall that they had to
>strap a 50lb sack of cement to the bike, but I could be wrong about
>that. ;-)
The Hondas owned that class, and you are correct. Instead of Harley
improving the design of their bikes to compete, they had the rules changed.
Gee, what a surprise.