track\street tires
Adam Anderson
few weeks and needed to know if I install a set of
D207GP's , D208's or Mich. Pilot race tires on my bike (Ducati 996),
could I use these tires for the street after. I would only use this bike
for riding in the back roads, no freeway or rain. I am not concerned
with tire life, just if they heat cycle and are no good after a few
times.
Thank you, Adam
--
www.northbaynetworks.com Adam Anderson
JR
Adam Anderson <ch...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
From what I know, DONT USE RACE TIRES ON THE STREET, PERIOD. They need
to heat up way more than the most spirited street riding usually
accomplishes. The heat up time is very long and they rarely stay hot
enough to make it an advantage. This makes them dangerous. Street
tires are designed to heat up faster, making them handle better than
race tires in all but full race conditions. I would check with the
school. The ones I looked into recommend pretty new street tires. None
said race compounds were recommended.
JR
Steve
"Adam Anderson" <ch...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:3ACE6C9C...@speakeasy.net...
The following is something I found on a newsgroup or forum a while back.
Steve Brubaker is the President of Race Tires Services, and is quite
knowledgeable of Dunlop product:
"First thing I must mention that I work exclusively with Dunlop product and
can only speak about product that I have first hand knowledge and
experience with.
SAFETY. There is not a safety issue in running DOT racing tires on the
street. By SAFETY, I mean the tire will not have a failure or come apart
from normal aggressive street use. Excluding road hazard. (Falling down
on oil, gravel or excessive throttle is not a tire failure)
DIFFERENCE: The biggest difference in the racing tire and the street tire
is in the construction. Street tires have JLB construction and race tires
have a Cut Breaker or Cut Belt construction.
JLB is when the main tread belt (the ply just underneath the tread rubber)
has all of it plies running in the same direction. All the fibres are in
the same direction, pointing the way the tire rotates.
Cut Breaker construction is when there is 2 belts, both have the plies
running at an angle to the rotation.
Take one hand and hold it in front of you, point your finger to the
ceiling and keep you fingers side by side. This is what direction the
fibres run on a JLB breaker. Now take both hands with the fingers side by
side, lay one set of fingers on top of the other set at a 45 degree
angle. This is what a Cut Breaker looks like. (a picture is worth 1000
words, wish I had a picture to describe it better).
Whether you understanding the direction of the plies or not, the basic
difference in feel and performance is that the JLB construction is very
good for stability over bumps and feedback on odd surfaces. It also give a
much more smooth ride. This is better for a street ride and over the
things that one runs over when riding in street conditions.
The Cut Breaker is better at overall side grip. The basic word here is
SIDE GRIP. Cut Breakers give much more side grip and a bit of a stiffer
ride.
TEMPERATURES: What does tire temperature have to do with performance? Lets
first understand an old falsehood "Race tires won't stick till you warm
them up" this is untrue and is a falsehood. Here are the facts. If you
took a race tire and a street tire and ran them side by side, the race
tire would provide more grip than the street tire in every temperature
range. So if both tires are at 60F the race tire works better. If both at
160F, the race tire still works better. Now will a cold race tire work as
well as a hot street tire? I don't know, it would depend upon the
tires. (But I am sure that someone did this and fell down, then started
the rumor. ) The big difference comes in the cold verses hot
performance. A race tire get much better when hot. A street tire gets a
little bit better when hot.
WARM UP TIME: Dunlops generally come in, in 1 lap (the warm up lap). A
street tire gets a little bit better when hot, but not as much as a race
tire. The harder one rides the quicker and hotter the tire gets. These
are basics datums. The rider has to gain experience with tires and how
they work by riding on them many times. There are not hard numbers to
describe degrees of traction for every increase in temperature. Experience
is the key here.
Why would you use a RACE TIRE for the STREET?
Plus points - More grip.
Minus points - Harsher over bumps, less feedback, cost more, tend to wear
quicker.
Why would you use a STREET TIRE for the STREET?
Plus points - sufficient grip, smooth ride, more stable over bumps, last
longer, cost less
Minus points - Don't look as cool as my friend with race tires.
If you are riding on the street and really need a race tire, you should
not be riding on the street.
Street tires give very good grip, enough to have a very fun time in the
canyons. A street tire on the track will run about 1.5 seconds slower than
a race tire. Compared to 15 seconds slower for the average street rider
that goes to the track, it is easy to see that experience and practice
makes a much bigger difference than just tire choice.
Ride and have fun."
--
Steve Brubaker, President, Race Tire Service Inc.
Dunlop Motorcycle Roadrace Tire Distributor Eastern US
Order 800-772-TIRE, Tech Info 615-641-2234, Fax 615-641-8959
mailto:stev...@dunlopracing.com, http://www.dunlopracing.com/
---------------------------------------------
Erik Astrup
>Can anyone tell me, I am going to take a couple of track schools if a
>few weeks and needed to know if I install a set of
>D207GP's , D208's or Mich. Pilot race tires on my bike (Ducati 996),
>could I use these tires for the street after. I would only use this bike
>for riding in the back roads, no freeway or rain. I am not concerned
>with tire life, just if they heat cycle and are no good after a few
>times.
Sure, no problem. Unless you completely roast them (which can happen)
you should be able to get some miles out of them.
Just remember that race compound tires (especially the Michelin)
take a good deal longer to warm up than the street compound versions do.
---------------------------------------
Erik Astrup - Team Iguana Racing (Ret)
1999 Yamaha YZF-1000R1
1998 Honda ST-1100
1995 Triumph Tiger (For Sale)
http://www.mother.com/~eastrup/
"What do you want from me?! I'm just a word processor!"
---------------------------------------
matt
the race compound tires on the street before they will perform at the level
of a good street tire.
Larry xlax Lovisone
Adam...
I rode Doc's Wongs 996 and was impressed... that's a great mount... I would
fear the only problem is one's driver license lasting longer than tissue
paper..
> I am not concerned
> with tire life, just if they heat cycle and are no good after a few
> times.
On Metzeler MeZ1 race compound tires I had a tread separation which the
female company tire engineer (woof) stated was due to 5000 miles of street
use and the corresponding heat cycles...
http://www.rvators.com/larry/pic1/Metz12.JPG
On her recommendation I switched to MeZ3 street compounds... they have grip
like glue and wear like iron... enhancing the geometry allowing Mr. RC45 to
go quicker...
Larry L
94 RC45 #2
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/
Scott Storkel
You know, I think this is just pure bullshit... I've put thousands
of street miles on Dunlop D207GPs and *never* had a problem with
them! In fact, I'd trust a set of cold 207GPs on the street much
more than I'd trust a set of cold Michelin Pilot Sports!!!
YMMV.
-- Scott
--
==========================================================================
Scott Storkel Devious Software & Consulting
Software Engineer ssto...@devious.com
==========================================================================
Steve
"Scott Storkel" <ssto...@devious.com> wrote in message
news:907E68664ssto...@129.250.35.204...
Scott Storkel
<3ACE6C9C...@speakeasy.net>:
>Can anyone tell me, I am going to take a couple of track schools if a
>few weeks and needed to know if I install a set of
>D207GP's , D208's or Mich. Pilot race tires on my bike (Ducati 996),
>could I use these tires for the street after. I would only use this bike
>for riding in the back roads, no freeway or rain. I am not concerned
>with tire life, just if they heat cycle and are no good after a few
>times.
How fast are you? What sort of bike are you riding?
I've ridden lots of track miles using street tires: Dunlop 207ZRs,
Michelin Pilot Sports, Bridgestone BT56SS. They all work very well
(though the Michelin's take a LONG time to break-in and warm up). I
generally use them for a couple of track days and then a thousand or
so street miles before tossing them. I *do* tend to ride fairly
conservatively on the street.
Despite the fact that street tires work very well on the track, I've
been using 207GPs recently. To me, they feel like they have as much
or more grip than the Pilot Sports, they warm up quickly, and they
slide more predictably. I run the 207GPs on the street after a couple
of track days and haven't had any problems. Last time I compared prices,
the 207GPs were actually a bit cheaper than the Pilot Sports. They're
also pretty easy to come by in my area. The big downside to the 207GP
is the ultra-stiff sidewall. They made my F4 feel pretty nervous and
I ended up fitting a Scott's Steering Stabilizer to calm it down a
bit...
Steve
on race tires vs. street tires. I too am of the opinion that DOT race tires
are stickier than street tires at identical temperatures.:
Ride and have fun."
"Scott Storkel" <ssto...@devious.com> wrote in message
news:907E73483ssto...@129.250.35.204...
GSJCB1
<<<You know, I think this is just pure bullshit.. I've put thousands of street
miles on Dunlop D207GPs and *never* had a problem with them! In fact, I'd trust
a set of cold 207GPs on the street much more than I'd trust a set of cold
Michelin Pilot Sports!!!>>>
Ditto!! The ["race compound DOT tires are very slippery before getting really
warmed up, if used on sportbikes ridden on the street"] story is an old and
often misdirected one. The Dunlop D207GP tires (specifically the pre-STAR
models, just called "GP's"), totally break that myth (based upon my own
personal observations), in that they are actually STICKIER when cold .... than
ANY street compound tires on the market!
However not *all* "race compound DOT tires are a good choice for use on the
public roads, as some brand/model of these "race compound" category of tires
are indeed VERY slippery before they get heated up, and are downright dangerous
for street use ..... especially on a cold day, or wet conditions.
One prime example of a totally "no-go" tire of this category, is the Michelin
Pilot "Race" (especially the non-"Soft" version). Though these tires work
awesome after about two full laps around a racetrack, on a warm day, in their
intended purpose, they're pure "slip-n-slide" .... "looking for a place to
crash" territory, when cold.
So bottom line .... the "never use any race compound DOT tire on the street, as
they're dangerously slippery when cold" story .... is true in some cases .....
and as Scott so eloquently stated "pure bullshit" in other cases (the Dunlop
D207GP).
One more rider's view ..... FWIW.
Gary J. ("The Deerhunter 3")
Steve
from people who have tried Pilot Race, and they stick much better than the
Sports when cold. There are two compounds of the Pilot Race (a Pilot Race
Soft is available). Both are said to stick noticeably better than the Pilot
Sport at identical temperatures.
"GSJCB1" <gsj...@aol.comspamnot> wrote in message
news:20010409202247...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
Mr 645
then on a '93 rr and now an '01 F4i. Dead cold, well as cold as it gets in
Florida they stick worlds better then OEM rubber and last me about 3000 street
miles. In the case of the 900RR not only did the SportMax GP stick much better
then the Battlax OEM but it gave me lighter steering, whic let me tighten down
on the steering dampner on the RR and the GP's gave better front end feedback.
I must say however than the OEM tires on my F4i do did work very well, a big
leap over what OEM tires were in 93 and 94.
Jon
Adam Anderson
intermediate rider. Have been riding for many years, Just now starting to hit the
track schools. Has anyone tried the D208's, evidently the 207GP's are no longer
available.
Adam Anderson
Scott Storkel wrote:
--
www.northbaynetworks.com Adam Anderson
GSJCB1
<<< I've heard from people who have tried Pilot Race, and they stick much
better than the Sports when cold.>>>
==============================================
Not to bust your chops Steve, and everyone's entitled to their opinion .... but
I've got to make one quick comment on your statement.
I suspect that the dozens of racers that I personally know (and I'm sure that
the numbers run much higher internationally .... as I'm just a local California
racer guy) which have encountered "cold tire crashes" at racetrack events where
I've been present, when first learning the ropes of the Michelin Pilot "RACE"
(the harder compound version .... not the "Race Soft") when they were first
introduced in 1999 ...... would have serious diagreement with "what you've
heard from people".
From my own personal experience (having used these tires for one race season) a
truly cold Michelin Pilot "RACE" (again, not "Race Soft") offers about as much
traction as one would expect from riding on a freshly rain coated road, at the
onset of the first storm of the season.
If anyone doubts this statement, and has a bike and leathers that they don't
mind sacrificing for the sake of science ..... I challenge you to mount up a
brand new set of these specific tires, and go out for a single first lap on a
cool day, at even 60% of normal speed. The unfortunate results will be the
judge. :-(
Any riders out there in the newsgroup that have experienced this "cold tire
crash" fate, from this specific brand/model of tires, wish to step forward and
be counted?
WHALEN44
The 207GPs are still available. Dunlop stocked up on them for racers who like
to use them as intermedite "rain" tires.
Try MAW.
Richard
97 YZF1000R
Scott Storkel
> Thanks for everyone's feed back, Scott I ride a Ducati 996S. I'd say I am
a fast
>intermediate rider. Have been riding for many years, Just now starting to hit
the
>track schools. Has anyone tried the D208's, evidently the 207GP's are no
longer
>available.
I just put three fairly hard track days on my last set of 207GPs
and I'm scheduled to go to the track again this weekend, so I'll
probably be looking for new tires this weekend. If I can find 208GPs
at a semi-reasonable price, I may give them a try.
Personally, I think you could get away with using any of the super-
sticky street tires (Dunlop 207ZR/208ZR, Bridgestone BT56SS, or
Michelin Pilot Sport). Last year, I tried out *all* of these tires
at the track. They're all good for at least two days of track riding
(min. 7-8 20-minute sessions each day) and then some street miles
afterward.
The Pilot Sport had the best grip, was the most expensive, and took
the most time to break in/warm up. In addition, the Pilot Sports also
seemed to show the least amount of wear. Unfortunately, this is a bit
of a double-edged sword. I found out (the hard way) that the Pilot
Sport slides unpredictably when I tried to push them to a 3rd and 4th
track day. The tires *looked* perfectly fine, but one minute they were
there and the next they weren't... I'd be a bit worried about using the
Pilot Sport on a liter-class bike, just because of the possibility of
sliding the rear before the tire was warmed up. If I had the money, I'd
pitch the set that are on my 929 before I take it to the track next
weekend...
The Bridgestone BT56SS was nearly as sticky as the Pilot Sport, a shade
less compliant, a bit cheaper, and warms up more quickly. No idea how
predictably (or unpredictably) they slide. I really liked this tire, but
had trouble getting them at some point last year, so I gave up on them.
The Dunlop 207ZR was, I thought, a bit behind the Pilot and BT56SS in
terms of absolute grip and tire wear. On the upside, they work well and
they're a great value. A liter-class bike may tend to chew through these
a lot faster than my 600... The 207ZR is my preferred street tire.
I like the 207GP because it offers at least as much grip as the Michelin
Pilot Sport, it warms up quicker, and it slides more predictably. Last
time I compared prices, it was also a bit cheaper. The downside of the
GP is that the sidewall is incredibly stiff! On my CBR600F4, this made
the bike feel a bit nervous when traversing bumps while leaned over. I
ended up fitting a Scott's steering damper to help with this. As I've
mentioned, I've also used this tire on the street without any problems.
Hard for me to compare the tread life of the 207GP vs. the Pilot Sport.
The Dunlops certainly start to *look* chewed up before the Pilot's do,
but they've always stuck for me (provided I still had tread left).