Breaking in a new engine
aaron
thinks of this method.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/power_5_01.htm
Troy (Formerly Troy The Troll)
had a racetrack/dyno break in doesn't even look as though combustion has
taken place...even on the top and sides of the piston ABOVE the rings.
Makes me wonder.......
"aaron" <aaro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:DBDEEAABA2E7B0E7.08C1DFD6...@lp.airnews.net...
Phil Scott
The Troll\)" <f4...@home.com> wrote:
>Interesting that in his example of two pistons, the one which is supposedly
>had a racetrack/dyno break in doesn't even look as though combustion has
>taken place...even on the top and sides of the piston ABOVE the rings.
>Makes me wonder.......
Synthetic oil doesn't burn with a carbon residue, and
the rings were seat properly using cheap car oil for
the first 1,500 miles.
We broke in dirt bikes the same way, some guys, expert
class pro's, would take a bike out of the crate, set it
up, fuel it in the shop but not even kick it over, then
take it to the track, kick start it cold, and go
instantly to full throttle for 5 minutes.. they ran
both cheap oil and a very lean oil to gas mixture for
break in.
Phil Scott
Troy (Formerly Troy The Troll)
"Phil Scott" <phils...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3afb533b...@news.tdl.com...
> On Fri, 11 May 2001 01:43:01 GMT, "Troy \(Formerly Troy
> The Troll\)" <f4...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Interesting that in his example of two pistons, the one which is
supposedly
> >had a racetrack/dyno break in doesn't even look as though combustion has
> >taken place...even on the top and sides of the piston ABOVE the rings.
> >Makes me wonder.......
>
> Synthetic oil doesn't burn with a carbon residue, and
> the rings were seat properly using cheap car oil for
> the first 1,500 miles.
He said not to use synthetics, so I assume he didn't when he broke in two
sets of pistons, took pictures, and used them as examples. Assuming the same
oil was used, and only the break in procedure was changed....why no
combustion residue on the top of the second piston?
>
> We broke in dirt bikes the same way, some guys, expert
> class pro's, would take a bike out of the crate, set it
> up, fuel it in the shop but not even kick it over, then
> take it to the track, kick start it cold, and go
> instantly to full throttle for 5 minutes.. they ran
> both cheap oil and a very lean oil to gas mixture for
> break in.
>
> Phil Scott
I haven't even gotten to the point of disagreeing or agreeing with his
particularly brand of break in, I just want to know why two pistons, used as
examples of why he says his technique is better, are so different.
chas
'01 VFR which I found on the web. The similar concept is to do
relatively short runs (30 to 45 minutes or so), at increasing
acceleration and RPM levels, with complete cool-downs in between. I
changed the oil & filter at 150, 600, and 2000 miles...going with Mobil
MC synth 10-40 at 2K. And this did not specifically run contrary to the
stated recommendation by Honda.
"aaron" <aaro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:DBDEEAABA2E7B0E7.08C1DFD6...@lp.airnews.net..
.
: I got this in my email box today and wondered what everyone else
Phil Scott
The Troll\)" <f4...@home.com> wrote:
>
>"Phil Scott" <phils...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3afb533b...@news.tdl.com...
>> On Fri, 11 May 2001 01:43:01 GMT, "Troy \(Formerly Troy
>> The Troll\)" <f4...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Interesting that in his example of two pistons, the one which is
>supposedly
>> >had a racetrack/dyno break in doesn't even look as though combustion has
>> >taken place...even on the top and sides of the piston ABOVE the rings.
>> >Makes me wonder.......
>>
>> Synthetic oil doesn't burn with a carbon residue, and
>> the rings were seat properly using cheap car oil for
>> the first 1,500 miles.
>
>He said not to use synthetics, so I assume he didn't when he broke in two
>sets of pistons, took pictures, and used them as examples. Assuming the same
>oil was used, and only the break in procedure was changed....why no
>combustion residue on the top of the second piston?
You use cheap car grade mineral oil during break in
*only. THEN after breakin you switch to synthetics.
>
>>
>> We broke in dirt bikes the same way, some guys, expert
>> class pro's, would take a bike out of the crate, set it
>> up, fuel it in the shop but not even kick it over, then
>> take it to the track, kick start it cold, and go
>> instantly to full throttle for 5 minutes.. they ran
>> both cheap oil and a very lean oil to gas mixture for
>> break in.
>>
>> Phil Scott
>
>I haven't even gotten to the point of disagreeing or agreeing with his
>particularly brand of break in, I just want to know why two pistons, used as
>examples of why he says his technique is better, are so different.
Ive seen it myself. One almost unbelievable case was
a dirt bike that froze up from over heating on desert
race in northern nevada, 100 miles or so though sand.
It had 4,000 miles on it prior to that.
When the bike cooled off we took the head and cylinder
off... the piston was perfect still within tolerances,
no bore wear, and virtually no carbon build up.
Phil Scott
>
>
Daniel
same "break it in gently" instructions. Those dang factory engineers just
don't know squat, do they? ; )
Daniel
'00 YZF600R
Austin, Texas
"aaron" <aaro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:DBDEEAABA2E7B0E7.08C1DFD6...@lp.airnews.net...
Larry W.
chas <ch...@inreach.com> wrote in message
news:40KK6.5958$ca.1...@news.inreach.com...
> Well...it sounds a bit extreme, but I used a similar method with my new
> '01 VFR which I found on the web. The similar concept is to do
> relatively short runs (30 to 45 minutes or so), at increasing
> acceleration and RPM levels, with complete cool-downs in between. I
> changed the oil & filter at 150, 600, and 2000 miles...going with Mobil
> MC synth 10-40 at 2K. And this did not specifically run contrary to the
> stated recommendation by Honda.
I think Honda is a bit different. Both my F4 and my 929 owner's manuals
simply stated not to run at full throttle for the first 300 miles. They
have specially coated their cylinder walls.
By contrast, my FZ-1 says not to run sustained rpms above 5000 for 600
miles, and 6000 up to 1000 miles.
Again, I suggest following the owner's manual for your particular bike.
Larry W.
Daniel <deja...@angelfire.com> wrote in message
news:MpSK6.45253$hu.81...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> Pretty funny. Every manual for every bike I have ever owned has the exact
> same "break it in gently" instructions. Those dang factory engineers just
> don't know squat, do they? ; )
Actually Honda doesn't have that on their 2000 sportbikes, but Yamaha and I
believe Kawasaki still do.
Larry W.
> thinks of this method.
> http://www.mototuneusa.com/power_5_01.htm
Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with doing the break in that your
owner's manual requires you to do?
Larry
01 FZ-1
TheJoker103
> thinks of this method.
> http://www.mototuneusa.com/power_5_01.htm
Jackson,
According to this guy I did everything wrong.....
haven't broken my bike "Perfectly" but did not run it hard.
As a matter of fact at 900 miles I just put synthetic oil in the bike....he
says NO SYNTHETIC until u hit 1500 miles of street riding.... Oh well..... I
guess I'll see what happens. Bike is running fine so far.
Phil Scott
<l...@will-contests.com> wrote:
The web site address that. Running the engine hard
forces the rings out to the rough cylinder walls so
they seat well before the roughness wears off... there
is a protocol for that. (the rings are forced out by
gas pressure that gets behind them not by the 10 lbs or
so tension in the rings.)
Commonly interpretted mfgrs recommendations preclude
that hard running. Read the web site at the front
of the thread it is excellent on these and mfgr
motivation issues.
Phil Scott
>
>
Tom Crooze
*RANT*
Does it really matter what oil you use in your engine at 900 miles vs. 1500
miles? I'm sure that the rings seating is a good thing, but I'm pretty sure
that bike engineers seem to have a better handle on the bike's longevity
characteristics than riders that just "have a feel for it."
Tom
"TheJoker103" <thejo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010511190210...@ng-fu1.aol.com...
Phil Scott
<fake...@nobody.com> wrote:
>Frankly, all this sounds like suspicious superstition to me...
>
>*RANT*
>Does it really matter what oil you use in your engine at 900 miles vs. 1500
>miles? I'm sure that the rings seating is a good thing, but I'm pretty sure
>that bike engineers seem to have a better handle on the bike's longevity
>characteristics than riders that just "have a feel for it."
>
>Tom
It matters. Synthetics lubicate **too well** to allow
the rings to wear in.
Phil Scott
Elephant
>
>Running the engine hard
>forces the rings out to the rough cylinder walls so
>they seat well before the roughness wears off... there
>is a protocol for that. (the rings are forced out by
>gas pressure that gets behind them not by the 10 lbs or
>so tension in the rings.)
>
>Commonly interpretted mfgrs recommendations preclude
>that hard running. Read the web site at the front
>of the thread it is excellent on these and mfgr
>motivation issues.
>
>Phil Scott
>
Hmmm. Feels right, somehow, but I wouldn't risk it if I'd just spent $xxxxx
on a new bike:)
Kinda like disc pads, where they say take it easy for first 100 miles, but
if you break real hard for the first 100 miles you end up with brakes with
far more power and feel than normal. Course, they don't last long...and it
doesn't always work :)
Reminds me of when I had a 125 (I'm from UK, so de-restricted '93 26HP 125,
>7000rpm = lots of fun till you hit 90 and things tail off from there...).
As is usual for a 2 stroke, the pistons melted (molten ali nuggets anyone?)
and I needed a rebore. Decided to get a 140cc rebore, ( yeah, wow:), but,
urm, somehow managed to get confused as to which way the arrow should point,
so ended up with a piston round the wrong way. lol.
Stupid I know, BUT, my god that thing could shift - and the noise? Like a
wild banshee screaming. There was not much below 6k, but when it hit 7k, the
thing just flew. Many of you "power rangers" may scoff at 2 stroke's, but
they are a lot of fun. Not too tractable though :) Anyway, eventually (1000
miles), the thing seized, so I had to replace bore/piston with the same
140cc kit - but it was never the same - once I got it run in, it was a
pussycat compared to the original "wrong way".
I've often wondered why...and this website, and Phil, maybe explained
it...the rings
were rough-housing against the bore, giving a bloody good seal, but not for
long. Enough for one race?
Elephant
Stets
> thinks of this method.
> http://www.mototuneusa.com/power_5_01.htm
Seeing as my GSXR1000 arrives in a couple of weeks I found this site really
interesting.
What I don't understand is every new car that I have owned has not had a
break in procedure at all....just get in and drive yet for some reason bikes
have this defined method of engine break in.
Are the materials, manufacturing methods and tolerances used in car versus
bike engines really that different?
Haven't decided what break in method to use yet but that site provides "food
for thought" and technically seems to make sense.
The only thing I would question is the long term durability of an engine
broken in this way. Whilst it may work great on a race engine that only has
to last 1 - 3 days before being torn down again how does it fair with street
durability?
Regards
--
Stets
01 GSXR1000 - 2 weeks (or so) to delivery
95 FXD (Problem Child) - Departing soon
85 Katana 750
85 RZ250R
*remove spamsux to reply*
LeadBuG
> What I don't understand is every new car that I have owned has not had a
> break in procedure at all....just get in and drive yet for some reason
bikes
> have this defined method of engine break in.
>
> Are the materials, manufacturing methods and tolerances used in car versus
> bike engines really that different?
My 2000 Honda Civic SiR had a 1000km break in period.
From the book:
"Avoid full throttle starts and rapid acceleration"
Mind you my car has a 8K rpm redline. So... its like a bike engine. :)
cya
Sean
Gary
Actually all cars have a "break in" period, you just haven't been reading
the owners manuals.
"Stets" <ausc...@spamsuxbigpond.com> wrote in message
news:O0%L6.27121$482.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Roderic Don
"Stets" <ausc...@spamsuxbigpond.com> wrote:
> Seeing as my GSXR1000 arrives in a couple of weeks I found this site really
> interesting.
> What I don't understand is every new car that I have owned has not had a
> break in procedure at all....just get in and drive yet for some reason bikes
> have this defined method of engine break in.
> Are the materials, manufacturing methods and tolerances used in car versus
> bike engines really that different?
Autos are usually in a lesser state of tune. Larger displacement, lower
compression, less concern for weight savings and power/weight add up to
lower stressed internals. Plus few idiots stomp on the accelerator right
off the new car lot. Hell, I've gotten decent rental cars with less than
10 miles on the clock, and felt no need to rally car it.
The break-in procedure in the user manual for my VTR (U.S. version)
wasn't well-defined at all. It was essentially: limit sustained high rpm
operation and avoid full throttle acceleration during the first 1000
miles. Wasn't that hard to do. After the first oil change at 600 miles I
gradually upped things a bit.
> Haven't decided what break in method to use yet but that site provides "food
> for thought" and technically seems to make sense.
There's lots of black magic and mumbo-jumbo around concerning break-in.
I think Honda's recommendation (above) is pretty reasonable and easy to
follow.
Rod
------
'00 VTR1000F
Tom Crooze
author's butt. Superstition and hokey. When I see an authentic article
WITH PROOF from a reputable source, I'll believe it.
Tom
"Stets" <ausc...@spamsuxbigpond.com> wrote in message
news:O0%L6.27121$482.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
Erik Astrup
wrote:
>Frankly, I believe those stats on that website are a load of crap out the
>author's butt. Superstition and hokey.
What stats?
What superstition?
>When I see an authentic article WITH PROOF from a reputable source, I'll believe it.
So what do you consider "proof", and who do you consider "reputable" ?
How about professional engine builders?
Like say, Muzzy, or the former Simms and Rohm guys? How about
the section on engine break in in Kevin Cameron's book? All relate the
same info this guys site does.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik Astrup - http:// Under Construction
1995 Triumph Tiger (For Sale)
1998 Honda ST-1100
1999 Yamaha YZF1000 R1
"Will the highways on the Internet become more few?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stets
Tom Crooze <fake...@nobody.com> wrote in message
news:BXhM6.248801$o9.36...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> Frankly, I believe those stats on that website are a load of crap out the
> author's butt. Superstition and hokey. When I see an authentic article
> WITH PROOF from a reputable source, I'll believe it.
>
> Tom
G'day Tom
Exactly which stats on the web site are you sceptical of.
The technical aspect regarding ring sealing in relation to combustion
chamber pressures makes sense.
I often visit car manufacturers assembly lines and when the engines are
assembled they are all hot tested for various faults, oil leaks, ignition
faults, compression, etc.
These hot test beds are basically computer controlled dynos and take the
engine several times through the entire rev range as well as holding at
preset rev points for preset amounts of time.
I am certainly not advocating riding a brand new bike out of the showroom
and accelerating away, bouncing the engine off the rev limiter in each gear.
What I cannot reconcile is the harshness on the factory hot tests with the
ease/duration of many of the manufacturers break in procedures.
Regards
Tom Crooze
Methinks that it's a liability concern - ppl might redline and bust a valve
like in that XX thread earlier (if that's what happened). The fact that
they don't recommend such a break-in procedure is probably because the
benefits of thrashing the bike are minimal enough to not advocate it.
Besides, imagine if new riders got a new 500r and were redlining it
everywhere they went..
Tom
"Erik Astrup" <Er...@TeamIguana.com> wrote in message
news:nce3gt8n4ohb0l25r...@4ax.com...
M. J. Freeman
> What I don't understand is every new car that I have owned has not had a
> break in procedure at all....just get in and drive yet for some reason bikes
> have this defined method of engine break in.
Have you ever actually READ the owner's manual for your cars? You may
be surprised to find a "break in" procedure.
Hell, my Jeep YJ had one.
--
Michael J. Freeman (a.k.a., Pi)
mfree...@earthlink.net Oxford, OH
"Insanity runs in the family; it practically gallops"
Ellison, H. Thompson, D. Parker, Prince, SRV, Led Zep
Stets
M. J. Freeman <mfree...@earthlink.net.no_spam> wrote in message
news:150520012109007840%mfree...@earthlink.net.no_spam...
> In article <O0%L6.27121$482.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Stets
> <ausc...@spamsuxbigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > What I don't understand is every new car that I have owned has not had a
> > break in procedure at all....just get in and drive yet for some reason
bikes
> > have this defined method of engine break in.
>
>
> Have you ever actually READ the owner's manual for your cars? You may
> be surprised to find a "break in" procedure.
>
OK, I may have exagerated that there was "NO" break in procedure.
The break in for my current car is 1. No full throttle acceleration, 2 Don't
tow another vehicle or trailer, 3. In top gear don't exceed 190kmh
(118mph)... which is great given our top speed limit is 110kmh (68mph)
The above conditions apply for the first 1000km (621 mile)
This still does't equate to the pandering break in of most motorcycle
engines and from a technical basis I still cannot dispute the basis of the
mototuneusa website information
Regards
--
Stets
01 GSXR1000 - 3 weeks (or so) to delivery
Erik Astrup
wrote:
>Then why don't manufacturers say "run your bike to redline"?
>Methinks that it's a liability concern - ppl might redline and bust a valve
>like in that XX thread earlier (if that's what happened).
Owners manuals have more to consider than the owner getting the best
break in.
Remember, the owners manual also tells you to shift gears at absurdly
low rev ranges. If you were to follow those rules on most bikes
it will result in you lugging the engine. This is something you should
NEVER do when breaking in a motor.
>The fact that they don't recommend such a break-in procedure is probably because the
>benefits of thrashing the bike are minimal enough to not advocate it.
Tom, you need to open your mind up to the idea that manufacturers
have other things in mind when they write manuals.
>Besides, imagine if new riders got a new 500r and were redlining it
>everywhere they went..
No where does the article (or anyone here) advocate riding the bike
at redline every where you go.
No offense Tom, but I don't think you've done much research on the
subject. Professional tuners and engine builders have tons of
experience in this area. You may want to consider their professional
opinions before just ranting about what the owners manual says.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Crooze
Tom
"Erik Astrup" <Er...@TeamIguana.com> wrote in message
news:93c5gt03edfkb6i9r...@4ax.com...
Larry W.
fight with the warranty department if you can honestly say you followed the
break in.
Tom Crooze <fake...@nobody.com> wrote in message
news:oIAM6.226075$fs3.38...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
SammyTheSnake
>Owners manuals have more to consider than the owner getting the best
>break in.
and
>Tom, you need to open your mind up to the idea that manufacturers
>have other things in mind when they write manuals.
you don't seem to tell use just what these other motives are, could you
enlighten me, please?
Cheers & God bless
SammyTheSnake
--
Sam.Penny @ Ntlworld.com | Looking for a computer related
Linux, Hardware & Juggling specialist :-) | job, if you can help, e-mail me :)
Wheels: bike, 'ickle bike, and unicycle. | /o \/ Working on 5 ball 1/2 shower
Boxen: K6-266@300, dual Celery500 & Nx486 | \__/\ & some 6 / 7 ball exercises
Phil Scott
sa...@osyd.debian.org (SammyTheSnake) wrote:
>In article <93c5gt03edfkb6i9r...@4ax.com>, Erik Astrup wrote:
>>Owners manuals have more to consider than the owner getting the best
>>break in.
>
>and
>
>>Tom, you need to open your mind up to the idea that manufacturers
>>have other things in mind when they write manuals.
>
>you don't seem to tell use just what these other motives are, could you
>enlighten me, please?
There was a superb web site posted by a race tuner on
that issue.
A tight piston ring seal is the key to horsepower. To
get that the rings MUST be worn in when the bores are
still rough from the hone, and they must be broken in
under high pressure (not just the 15 lbs ring
tension).
the high pressure is achieved by the compression at
high engine speed getting behind the rings and forcing
out against the bores.. this seats them TIGHT. and you
get a much faster machine.
(Its a practice Ive seen used on race bikes by the best
tuners since I got involved in racing.. they take a
bike out of the crate directly to the track, and fire
it for the first time at the track and do full blast
runs until the engine heats up, the cool and repeat 5
or 6 times, thats highest revs under the heaviest
loads.
bikes broken in that way are fast.
the mfgrs incentive is to let you do its beta testing
in case they fitted a bearing too tightly etc. they
want to give that crap the best chance of not blowing
up, so you get to run it in slowly.
Phil Scott