Honda CBR F4 vs. Ducati 748
Joe Marnell
I own a 2000 Honda CBR F4 which I absolutely love. Great bike, very
dependable and forgiving. I got a call from my dealer who told be that he
finally has a Ducati 748 in yellow that he can get for me if I want it. I
originally was going for the duck but no dealer around had any 748's in
stock and it looked like I would have to wait until next year to get one
Outside of the obvious, I would love to here opinions on the differences,
good and bad, between the two bikes. And assuming I don't have the spare
change around to keep the Honda and buy the Ducati (that would be cool
though) should I make the leap, or be thankful for what I've got?
Looking forward to helpful advice.
Chris Plaschka
Park your Honda next to the Duck.
Look at the two of them.
Notice how your eyes keep coming back
to the Yellow 748, and how 'generic' the
Honda looks.
The Ducati will be totally impractical. It will
chip your teeth at 30mph in traffic at any hint
of a pavement seam or pothole. If you aren't
in neutral when you stop, you won't get there
after you stop (though you may get the light to
come on - don't let the clutch out). It's extreme,
impractical, unreasonable, impossible to carry
anyone, or anything, uncomfortable, expensive,
high-maintenance, and loads of fun! If you DO
manage to exceed its limits, you will be grinning
so hard the EMT's will not be able to get your
helmet off. It should probably be against the law.
If you have access to twisty roads without traffic
jams (and don't plan on using it as a 'commuter'),
you will find yourself smiling every time you think
of it sitting there in your garage (or your front room).
If you DO plan on using it as a 'commuter', in heavy
traffic, seek professional help, NOW.
You will find yourself standing in your driveway,
talking , drinking coffee (or beer) with people that
just want to look at it, even though you are NOT
going to let them ride it.
You will pay too much for insurance. Get some
quotes BEFORE you buy one.
Good luck on your decision!
--chris (Yellow! 748)
"Demetrios" <n...@spam.here> wrote in message news:392b4fc9...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net...
| On Tue, 23 May 2000 22:17:19 -0400, "Joe Marnell"
| <jmar...@stargate.net> wrote:
|
| >Outside of the obvious, I would love to here opinions on the differences,
| >good and bad, between the two bikes. And assuming I don't have the spare
| >change around to keep the Honda and buy the Ducati (that would be cool
| >though) should I make the leap, or be thankful for what I've got?
| >
| >Looking forward to helpful advice.
|
| The Duck will be eminently uncomfortable for anything other than
| occasional use. The Duck will roast your ass in traffic with those
| cool underseat pipes. The Duck will warm you ass all the time due to
| those same cool underseat pipes. The Duck has parts that are more
| expensive than the Honda's. The Duck needs parts more often because
| it's Italian. The Duck needs frequent persnickety valve adjustments
| that most shops screw up. The Duck will render you sterile due to it's
| tank shape. The Duck will give you a hard-on every time your fire it
| up and glance at the single sided swingarm. The Duck will get you
| laid.
|
| Did I forget anything?
Demetrios
Steve (cb)R
Demetrios <n...@spam.here> wrote in message
news:392b4fc9...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net...
Back ache, neck ache, wrist ache, ankle ache, head ache, ass ache and tooth
ache
--
St...@916duc.co.uk
www.916duc.co.uk
748 / 916 / 996 Riders views wanted
MMarchelya
wrote:
>Date: 5/23/00 8:17 PM Mountain Daylight Time
>Message-id: <simesd...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>Ok...
>
>I own a 2000 Honda CBR F4 which I absolutely love. Great bike, very
>dependable and forgiving. I got a call from my dealer who told be that he
>finally has a Ducati 748 in yellow that he can get for me if I want it. I
>originally was going for the duck but no dealer around had any 748's in
>stock and it looked like I would have to wait until next year to get one
>
>good and bad, between the two bikes. And assuming I don't have the spare
>change around to keep the Honda and buy the Ducati (that would be cool
>though) should I make the leap, or be thankful for what I've got?
>
>Looking forward to helpful advice.
>
Joe, both are great bikes and you can't go wrong either way. But here's the
real difference: In a couple of years - or maybe just a couple of months - the
F4 will be yesterday's news, like all the other fours that came before it. The
Ducati is one of motorcycling's all-time greats along with the Vincent Black
Shadow, Norton Manx, MV Agustas of the '60's, BSA Gold Star and a small, small
handful of others. Sure, the Duc's gonna have a replacement. They all do. But
can you ride even the current model to its full potential? Meanwhile, you've
got the only bike that makes the top ten of all time list and still comes with
a warranty.
Dan Nitschke
>
> Demetrios wrote:
> >
> > Did I forget anything?
>
> Back ache, neck ache, wrist ache, ankle ache, head ache, ass ache and tooth
> ache
Heck, I got all of those but the last one, and I
don't even *have* a Duck.
I don't think I need to buy one.
--
/* dan: The Anti-Ged -- Scary Git, IY (tm) #1, YJP #1, LCDB (tm) #1 */
Dan Nitschke *^* peDA...@idiom.com *^* (.....)@(.......).net
...................................................................
No matter what I say, you ignore me anyway; I might as well talk in
my sleep. (I could weep.) -- Supertramp, "Casual Conversations"
Mark
The 748 is one of the all-time greats? Based on what? I'd give you the 996 (as
an all-timer), but not the 748. The fact that it has "Ducati" on it does not
automatically make it "great." To me, the 748 is a Ducati for people who want a
Ducati sportbike but can't afford the 996. That's not really saying a lot.
In any case, the only reason to choose the 748 here is because you want something
different (i.e., something besides a Japanese I4), something that provides some
sort of romantic or aesthetic appeal. Not that there's anything wrong with that,
but based on everything I've read and heard, the F4 is a better motorcycle. In
every comparison I've seen with top-of-the-line 600cc sportbikes, the 748 comes
last. Is there really anything that the 748 does better, other than maybe look or
sound good? Apparently not. When you consider the enormous price difference, I
personally can not see choosing the 748.
Mark
Steve (cb)R
Dan Nitschke <peda...@idiom.com> wrote in message
news:392BF719...@idiom.com...
> "Steve (cb)R" wrote:
> >
> > Demetrios wrote:
> > >
> > > Did I forget anything?
> >
> > Back ache, neck ache, wrist ache, ankle ache, head ache, ass ache and
tooth
> > ache
>
> Heck, I got all of those but the last one, and I
> don't even *have* a Duck.
>
> I don't think I need to buy one.
> --
same journey on my Blade last week and didn't ache at all ( Blade has
clip-ons and rear sets, similar riding position )
--
St...@916duc.co.uk CBR 900, 916, Z1-B
www.916duc.co.uk
748 / 916 / 996 Riders views wanted
---------------------------------------------------
Desmoface
>sound good? Apparently not. When you consider the enormous price
>difference, I
>personally can not see choosing the 748.
I would recommend you snag a test ride on the 748, the f4 (well, you already
have that bike) and all the other 600's...I bet you will find that the 748 is a
magical ride...just my opinion...Also, the 748 WILL go down in history as a
great bike..any bike based on the 916 will always be something special. And, I
suggest you watch a world supersport race or 2...ducati is definitely very
competitive against the japanese inline 4's...and thats saying a lot as the
japanese competition is very tough...
Steve
98 916
Spiros Bouas
"Steve (cb)R" <st...@916duc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:vxLW4.4091$sE.4...@news3.cableinet.net...
>
> Demetrios <n...@spam.here> wrote in message
> news:392b4fc9...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net...
> > On Tue, 23 May 2000 22:17:19 -0400, "Joe Marnell"
> > <jmar...@stargate.net> wrote:
> >
differences,
> > >good and bad, between the two bikes. And assuming I don't have the
spare
> > >change around to keep the Honda and buy the Ducati (that would be cool
> > >though) should I make the leap, or be thankful for what I've got?
> > >
> > >Looking forward to helpful advice.
> >
> > occasional use. The Duck will roast your ass in traffic with those
> > cool underseat pipes. The Duck will warm you ass all the time due to
> > those same cool underseat pipes. The Duck has parts that are more
> > expensive than the Honda's. The Duck needs parts more often because
> > it's Italian. The Duck needs frequent persnickety valve adjustments
> > that most shops screw up. The Duck will render you sterile due to it's
> > tank shape. The Duck will give you a hard-on every time your fire it
> > up and glance at the single sided swingarm. The Duck will get you
> > laid.
> >
>
> Back ache, neck ache, wrist ache, ankle ache, head ache, ass ache and
tooth
> ache
>
and as Dimitris so eloquently pointed out, dick ache... :)
If I were to get a Duck, I love to hate them, I would go for a well kept '95
916... anything else you're wasting your money on... the 748 is low on power
and high on expense, especially a new one...
I turned in my 94 911 for a 74 911, it's a fifth the price and a lot more
fun to drive... don't assume something new and shiny is always better than
something well-worn...
But, when it's all said and done, go with whatever puts the biggest smile on
your face... after 100 miles though, not in the showroom...
best of luck, these are great dilemmas to have...
Spiros
Eddy Hops
>have that bike) and all the other 600's...I bet you will find that the 748 is
>a
>magical ride..
Yes, magic that one of the most buzzed about bikes can be so damn miserable to
ride if anywhere but on a 2+ mile GP track.
It is no town bike. It is no commuter bike, nor sport tour... it is a race
bike, and aside of it being appealing for aesthetic reasons (ergonomics, sound,
it's an awesome piece of art work) or maybe ego (i.e. "I can get laid if I own
one") racing is what it does. It is why Ducati built it, and it is LITERALLY
built from the track up... and when I say track I'm not talking about twisty
mountain road. It's pretty heavy handling it in tight sections. On something
like Road Atlanta or Laguna Seca, it is one helluva machine.
To strike home what I'm saying, I have a few bikes in the garage, but the only
one for sale is my 996. Interested?
John D.
Scott Storkel
<simesd...@corp.supernews.com>:
>Outside of the obvious, I would love to here opinions on the differences,
>good and bad, between the two bikes. And assuming I don't have the spare
>change around to keep the Honda and buy the Ducati (that would be cool
>though) should I make the leap, or be thankful for what I've got?
I own a 1999 Honda CBR600F4. My friend owns a Ducati 748. The
last time we went to Buttonwillow, he let me ride it around the
track for a couple of laps. Here are my impressions:
* The 748 is well nigh impossible to turn! The F4 flicks back
and forth with ease, the Ducati does not. I absolutely HATED
this aspect of the Duc! If you buy a 748, you'll have to learn
how to ride all over again; it's that different.
* The riding position of the 748 is Hell, in more ways that one.
To start, the clip-ons are so low that it's almost impossible
to avoid putting weight on your wrists. Everybody knows about
this. The other problem is that the riding position limits how
far you can see. On the F4, I was used to being able to turn my
head and look all the way through Buttonwillow's Turn 2/2a. On
the Duc, I couldn't lift my head up enough to see through the
turn. This was a bit unnerving coming off the F4, but I suppose
you'd get used to it if the Duc was your only bike.
* The Ducati clutch wasn't as bad as I'd heard, but that's not to
say that it was good. The neutral light and the transmission didn't
seem to be connected; I stalled the bike once when the light said
it was in neutral, but it wasn't. My friend says that it's also
easy to find false neutrals between the gears. You have to exert
a LOT of force to pull the clutch lever in on the Duc. This would
become a real problem in city traffic, I think.
* The Ducati's brakes have better initial bite than the F4. They
might be a tad more wooden than the F4, but they did give me the
feeling that they could stop the bike quicker. I really liked the
brakes on the Duc, but I wasn't trying to trail-brake or get
absolute stopping power out of them.
* The Duc has much better ground clearance than the F4. In fact the
F4 has pretty bad ground clearance (I'm just saying that because I
managed to drag the pipe and low-side at Buttonwillow last week).
* As everyone says, the Ducati has loads of torque available at
just about any RPM as opposed to the F4, which doesn't start to
pull hard until you hit 7000+ RPM. The Ducati's torque curve felt
much flatter than the F4's. I really like the way the F4 gives you
a big hit of power at 7-8K RPM, so this wasn't a plus for me.
* The range on the Ducati is pretty bad. I can usually get through
most of a track day without needing fuel. My friend usually has
to fill the 748's tank once or twice during the day.
My friend loves his 748, but after riding it around the track for
20 minutes, there's no way I'd ever trade my F4 for one. Even if
I was looking for a track-only bike, I wouldn't purchase a Ducati!
-- Scott
--
==========================================================================
Scott Storkel Devious Software & Consulting
Software Engineer ssto...@devious.com
==========================================================================
Larry
Scott Storkel <ssto...@devious.com> wrote in message
news:8F3E9FE99ssto...@206.184.139.132...<snip>
> * The 748 is well nigh impossible to turn! The F4 flicks back
> and forth with ease, the Ducati does not. I absolutely HATED
> this aspect of the Duc! If you buy a 748, you'll have to learn
> how to ride all over again; it's that different.
I don't know about the 748, but I rode the 916. It is just a different type
of turning. You need to give a good push on your countersteering hand. But
once heeled over the 916 has more stability than anything I've ridden other
than the RC-51.
The other problem is that the riding position limits how
> far you can see. On the F4, I was used to being able to turn my
> head and look all the way through Buttonwillow's Turn 2/2a. On
> the Duc, I couldn't lift my head up enough to see through the
> turn. This was a bit unnerving coming off the F4, but I suppose
> you'd get used to it if the Duc was your only bike.
I have the same problem on the RC-51. Any bike with very low clip-ons will
do that too you. The F4 has very high bars.
>
> * The Duc has much better ground clearance than the F4. In fact the
> F4 has pretty bad ground clearance (I'm just saying that because I
> managed to drag the pipe and low-side at Buttonwillow last week).
When I had my F4, I cured this problem by putting on an oval aluminum Two
Bros slip on. Easy to do, and cures the ground clearance problem. Probably
won't be able to ride Laguna Seca.
>
> * As everyone says, the Ducati has loads of torque available at
> just about any RPM as opposed to the F4, which doesn't start to
> pull hard until you hit 7000+ RPM. The Ducati's torque curve felt
> much flatter than the F4's. I really like the way the F4 gives you
> a big hit of power at 7-8K RPM, so this wasn't a plus for me.
>
> * The range on the Ducati is pretty bad. I can usually get through
> most of a track day without needing fuel. My friend usually has
> to fill the 748's tank once or twice during the day.
>
> My friend loves his 748, but after riding it around the track for
> 20 minutes, there's no way I'd ever trade my F4 for one. Even if
> I was looking for a track-only bike, I wouldn't purchase a Ducati!
>
Ducs are love affairs, like Ferraris. You won't outrun a Ford Cobra, but
you won't care. An R-1 or RC-51 will beat a Duc in most situations, but
there is nothing that sounds like, or looks as good as a Duc.
Larry
00 RC-51
98 Duc Monster 900 FOR SALE
00 R-1 (just arrived, haven't got it yet)
Larry
keep up with in line four engines. (If I'm close on the translation).
But I don't think that replaces the magic of a Duc for those who want that
mystique. A 748 or 996 are magical sounding and looking motorcycles.
But an F4 is a super all arounder, that is probably the best at everything
all at once, comfortable, all day range, good handling, Honda reliability.
Why not stretch and try to get both?? It will only hurt for a few years.
: - )
Larry
00 RC-51
Duc Monster 900 For Sale
00 R-1 (just landed)
vincent.leveq <vincent....@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:8gi705$dnm$5...@wanadoo.fr...
> que pensse tu duTLS 1000, par rapport a un 4 en ligne,
> A+ bixente
>
>
>
> Steve (cb)R <st...@916duc.co.uk> a écrit dans le message :
> vxLW4.4091$sE.4...@news3.cableinet.net...
> >
> > Demetrios <n...@spam.here> wrote in message
> > news:392b4fc9...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net...
> > > On Tue, 23 May 2000 22:17:19 -0400, "Joe Marnell"
> > > <jmar...@stargate.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Outside of the obvious, I would love to here opinions on the
> differences,
> > > >good and bad, between the two bikes. And assuming I don't have the
> spare
> > > >change around to keep the Honda and buy the Ducati (that would be
cool
> > > >though) should I make the leap, or be thankful for what I've got?
> > > >
> > > >Looking forward to helpful advice.
> > >
> > > The Duck will be eminently uncomfortable for anything other than
> > > occasional use. The Duck will roast your ass in traffic with those
> > > cool underseat pipes. The Duck will warm you ass all the time due to
> > > those same cool underseat pipes. The Duck has parts that are more
> > > expensive than the Honda's. The Duck needs parts more often because
> > > it's Italian. The Duck needs frequent persnickety valve adjustments
> > > that most shops screw up. The Duck will render you sterile due to it's
> > > tank shape. The Duck will give you a hard-on every time your fire it
> > > up and glance at the single sided swingarm. The Duck will get you
> > > laid.
> > >
> > > Did I forget anything?
> >
> > Back ache, neck ache, wrist ache, ankle ache, head ache, ass ache and
> tooth
> > ache
> >
> > --
> > St...@916duc.co.uk
Access
news:20000524154059...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
> > Is there really anything that the 748 does better, other than maybe look
or
> >sound good? Apparently not. When you consider the enormous price
> >difference, I
> >personally can not see choosing the 748.
>
already
> have that bike) and all the other 600's...I bet you will find that the 748
is a
a
> great bike..any bike based on the 916 will always be something special.
And, I
> suggest you watch a world supersport race or 2...ducati is definitely very
> competitive against the japanese inline 4's...and thats saying a lot as
the
> japanese competition is very tough...
>
> Steve
> 98 916
Yep but Ducati do throw complete engine away every time they race. Even the
cases have a limited life.
Trev
vincent.leveq
Scott Storkel
>
>Why not stretch and try to get both?? It will only hurt for a few years.
>: - )
Or better yet, buy the F4 (or VFR) for commute/touring duty
and pick-up an R6 or 6R for the track! Bargain hard and this
might only cost you a bit more than a single 748!
Sorry, Larry, I just couldn't resist :-)
mikker
what everyone here is forgetting is that its all about soul and passion,
practiacallity doent come into it
yea it hurts riding around town SO WHAT!
so it cost a bit more to service SO WHAT!
do you think the guy who buys his Ferrari thinks abouts it turning circle?
do you think he cares that he can only carry 1 other person?
do you think he gives a shit a bit spending $750 for each tyre when there
due?
NO!!!!
WHY?
because thats not the reason he bought it
think about it....
buy the way its not about speed its about handling,any dickhead can go fast
in a straight line but its in the twisty stuff that counts and the Ducati is
THE one.
Just buy it yoy will not regret it
mikker
99'748 SPS
Desmoface
>bike, and aside of it being appealing for aesthetic reasons (ergonomics,
>sound,
>it's an awesome piece of art work) or maybe ego (i.e. "I can get laid if I
>own
>one") racing is what it does. It is why Ducati built it, and it is LITERALLY
>built from the track up... and when I say track I'm not talking about twisty
>mountain road. It's pretty heavy handling it in tight sections. On
>something
>like Road Atlanta or Laguna Seca, it is one helluva machine.
>
>To strike home what I'm saying, I have a few bikes in the garage, but the
>only
>one for sale is my 996. Interested?
>
>John D.
>
>
You should post that bike to the ducati mailing list, should sell pretty
quick..if your asking a fair price..
And, your right, the ducati's were built with one thing in mind, racing...the
916/748 is about as close as you can get to a "race bike made for the street"
in stock form..I guess that's part of the appeal..to me anyway.....If you
bought a ferrari, you probably wouldn't complain about it not being comfortable
for long trips?? or the funny, frequent maintenance intervals?? of course
not...ducatisti buy these bikes because of a passion inside...
The honda f4 is a more practical street bike, no question, but when the road
turns twisty, im sure he'll be glad he's on the duc...the duc is nirvana on a
tight twisty road, and that is exactly where most sport bike enthusiast want
their bikes to excell, which explains the popularity of the ducati's..
But of course, everyone has their own tastes, he may wind up liking the fact
that with the honda, all you have to do is change the oil and you have a very
competent sport bike....on the other hand, with the ducati, you have a no holds
barred sport bike....
Steve
98 916
Desmoface
>cases have a limited life.
>
>Trev
>
Wow, how long have you been a ducati superbike racing mechanic, Trev?
Steve
98 916
Mark
> >It is no town bike. It is no commuter bike, nor sport tour... it is a race
> >bike, and aside of it being appealing for aesthetic reasons (ergonomics,
> >sound,
> >it's an awesome piece of art work) or maybe ego (i.e. "I can get laid if I
> >own
> >one") racing is what it does. It is why Ducati built it, and it is LITERALLY
> >built from the track up... and when I say track I'm not talking about twisty
> >mountain road. It's pretty heavy handling it in tight sections. On
> >something
> >like Road Atlanta or Laguna Seca, it is one helluva machine.
> >
> >To strike home what I'm saying, I have a few bikes in the garage, but the
> >only
> >one for sale is my 996. Interested?
> >
> >John D.
> >
> >
>
> You should post that bike to the ducati mailing list, should sell pretty
> quick..if your asking a fair price..
>
> And, your right, the ducati's were built with one thing in mind, racing...the
> 916/748 is about as close as you can get to a "race bike made for the street"
> in stock form..I guess that's part of the appeal..to me anyway.....If you
> bought a ferrari, you probably wouldn't complain about it not being comfortable
> for long trips?? or the funny, frequent maintenance intervals?? of course
> not...ducatisti buy these bikes because of a passion inside...
Then again, how many people have a Ferrari that is their only vehicle? I would
guess none. For someone who is choosing their only bike, the 748 is a poor
choice. That is, unless all they are going to do is race it, go sport riding on
Sunday with it, or park it outside the local hang-out.
>
>
> The honda f4 is a more practical street bike, no question, but when the road
> turns twisty, im sure he'll be glad he's on the duc...the duc is nirvana on a
> tight twisty road, and that is exactly where most sport bike enthusiast want
> their bikes to excell, which explains the popularity of the ducati's..
Popularity? What popularity? How many worldwide sales for the 748 vs. the F4? I
think the numbers would embarass you. In fact, it is not popular because it is too
expensive, too uncomfortable, requires too much maintenance, and doesn't provide
enough, if any, extra performance that would justify its shortcomings.
>
>
> But of course, everyone has their own tastes, he may wind up liking the fact
> that with the honda, all you have to do is change the oil and you have a very
> competent sport bike....on the other hand, with the ducati, you have a no holds
> barred sport bike....
>
> Steve
> 98 916
The fact of the matter is that the F4 is probably just as good at being a sportbike
as the 748. I don't follow world supersport, but how has the 748 done against the
Japanese 600s? Your comments lead me to believe that it is competitive, but
definitely not superior. You sound like the R6 lovers who rave about how much
better the R6 is than the F4. Unfortunately for them, this isn't manifested on the
track. So, given two great sportbikes, the obvious choice is the one that also
performs well on the street.
Mark
Mark
> > Is there really anything that the 748 does better, other than maybe look or
> >sound good? Apparently not. When you consider the enormous price
> >difference, I
> >personally can not see choosing the 748.
>
> I would recommend you snag a test ride on the 748, the f4 (well, you already
> have that bike) and all the other 600's...I bet you will find that the 748 is a
> magical ride...just my opinion...Also, the 748 WILL go down in history as a
> great bike..any bike based on the 916 will always be something special. And, I
> suggest you watch a world supersport race or 2...ducati is definitely very
> competitive against the japanese inline 4's...and thats saying a lot as the
> japanese competition is very tough...
>
> Steve
> 98 916
I think it is highly unlikely that a Ducati dealer will give test rides on a 748.
I don't know - I've never checked - but it seems unlikely. As for the F4, no, I
don't have one. Remember that I based my opinion on various reviews and
commentary. As for the 748's greatness, it is now apparent that judgement is based
on one person's opinion - yours. I stand by my statement that the 748 is a "poor"
man's 916/996 and will never qualify as an all-time great. Of course, that is only
my opinion. It is a bike for someone who thinks Ducatis are special/different but
can't see forking over $16-17K for one. The possible exception is if it is
intended as a race bike. Even then, one has to wonder why someone would race one.
It is considerably more expensive to operate and apparently won't provide better
results than the "very tough" Japanese competition. In any case, I don't think the
original poster said anything about racing, so it is something of a moot point.
Again, the only reason to choose the 748 (for a street bike) is because you think
it looks and/or sounds good or because of some fondness for the uniqueness that is
a Ducati.
Mark
Andy Burnett
Desmoface wrote in message <20000525092225...@ng-fo1.aol.com>...
>>Yep but Ducati do throw complete engine away every time they race. Even
the
>>cases have a limited life.
>
Steve, I don't know if you're disagreeing with Trev here, but Ducs *do*
break cases. Build your 916 to make over 120HP and you'll discover that
yourself, Corsa cases or not.
ab
'91 ST1100
'95 916
'95 TZ250
Chris Geary
<l...@will-contests.com> decided to enlighten the rest
of us and spake thusly:
> It is definitely worth thinking about a TL1000S which is a twin that can
>keep up with in line four engines. (If I'm close on the translation).
>But I don't think that replaces the magic of a Duc for those who want that
>mystique. A 748 or 996 are magical sounding and looking motorcycles.
>
>But an F4 is a super all arounder, that is probably the best at everything
>all at once, comfortable, all day range, good handling, Honda reliability.
>
>Why not stretch and try to get both?? It will only hurt for a few years.
>: - )
Aprilia!!!
RSV Mille
SL1000!!
--
cge...@amug.org
cge...@uswest.net
www.amug.org/~cgeary
DOD # 64737
Honda RC31
Sorry to disappoint, but
I am NOT nor have i EVER been
an entrant in the Mr. Gay UK contest
Ducati Club Vlaanderen
is an alrounder.
Filip.
Scott Storkel wrote:
> jmar...@stargate.net (Joe Marnell) wrote in
> <simesd...@corp.supernews.com>:
>
> >Outside of the obvious, I would love to here opinions on the differences,
> >good and bad, between the two bikes. And assuming I don't have the spare
> >change around to keep the Honda and buy the Ducati (that would be cool
> >though) should I make the leap, or be thankful for what I've got?
>
> I own a 1999 Honda CBR600F4. My friend owns a Ducati 748. The
> last time we went to Buttonwillow, he let me ride it around the
> track for a couple of laps. Here are my impressions:
>
> * The 748 is well nigh impossible to turn! The F4 flicks back
> and forth with ease, the Ducati does not. I absolutely HATED
> this aspect of the Duc! If you buy a 748, you'll have to learn
> how to ride all over again; it's that different.
>
> * The riding position of the 748 is Hell, in more ways that one.
> To start, the clip-ons are so low that it's almost impossible
> to avoid putting weight on your wrists. Everybody knows about
> this. The other problem is that the riding position limits how
> far you can see. On the F4, I was used to being able to turn my
> head and look all the way through Buttonwillow's Turn 2/2a. On
> the Duc, I couldn't lift my head up enough to see through the
> turn. This was a bit unnerving coming off the F4, but I suppose
> you'd get used to it if the Duc was your only bike.
>
> * The Ducati clutch wasn't as bad as I'd heard, but that's not to
> say that it was good. The neutral light and the transmission didn't
> seem to be connected; I stalled the bike once when the light said
> it was in neutral, but it wasn't. My friend says that it's also
> easy to find false neutrals between the gears. You have to exert
> a LOT of force to pull the clutch lever in on the Duc. This would
> become a real problem in city traffic, I think.
>
> * The Ducati's brakes have better initial bite than the F4. They
> might be a tad more wooden than the F4, but they did give me the
> feeling that they could stop the bike quicker. I really liked the
> brakes on the Duc, but I wasn't trying to trail-brake or get
> absolute stopping power out of them.
>
> * The Duc has much better ground clearance than the F4. In fact the
> F4 has pretty bad ground clearance (I'm just saying that because I
> managed to drag the pipe and low-side at Buttonwillow last week).
>
> * As everyone says, the Ducati has loads of torque available at
> just about any RPM as opposed to the F4, which doesn't start to
> pull hard until you hit 7000+ RPM. The Ducati's torque curve felt
> much flatter than the F4's. I really like the way the F4 gives you
> a big hit of power at 7-8K RPM, so this wasn't a plus for me.
>
> * The range on the Ducati is pretty bad. I can usually get through
> most of a track day without needing fuel. My friend usually has
> to fill the 748's tank once or twice during the day.
>
> My friend loves his 748, but after riding it around the track for
> 20 minutes, there's no way I'd ever trade my F4 for one. Even if
> I was looking for a track-only bike, I wouldn't purchase a Ducati!
>
Daniel
included the 748.
www.motorcycle.com/mo/mccompare/00_600s.html
Daniel
'00 YZF600R
Austin, TX
"Ducati Club Vlaanderen" <ducat...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:392D73FA...@geocities.com...
Erik Astrup
>>Yep but Ducati do throw complete engine away every time they race. Even the
>>cases have a limited life.
>>Trev
>Wow, how long have you been a ducati superbike racing mechanic, Trev?
>Steve
>98 916
He may not be a Duc mechanic, but he's right anyway.
It's well known that Ducati has to bring loads of spare motors to the
track, and they replace them frequently during the race weekends.
Their motors are pushed to the absolute limits and it comes with a
cost.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik Astrup - http://www.mother.com/~eastrup/
1997 Triumph Speed Triple (FOR SALE See webpage for info)
1995 Triumph Tiger
1999 Yamaha YZF1000 R1
Wenn ist das Nunstrück git und Slotermeyer?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Desmoface
>Japanese 600s? Your comments lead me to believe that it is competitive, but
>definitely not superior.
I suggest you watch a race or two before commenting on a subject you admitedly
dont know much about..
Steve
98 916
Erik Astrup
<ducat...@geocities.com> wrote:
>It still depends on your taste. On a twisty circuit, a 748 is unbeatable!
Mmmm....Unbeatable eh? Ask Casoli about his last few seasons
on the 748! 14th place!
Relax, I'm onlly having fun with ya!
Desmoface
You have ridden a 748, havent you?? I mean, you are so obviously qualified to
make the decision of what and what is not a good bike...Im guessing you havent
watched wsb, ama or supersport racing lately?? Ducati's won more wsb races then
all the japanese manufacturers combined..but, your right, they dont know how to
build competitive motorcycles..BAHAHAHHA!!!
Steve
98 916
Steve
98 916
Desmoface
>Steve, I don't know if you're disagreeing with Trev here, but Ducs *do*
>break cases. Build your 916 to make over 120HP and you'll discover that
>yourself, Corsa cases or not.
Of course they do..any motor built to wsb specs isnt going to last long...but
ducati does have a history of cases expiring, as far back as the
888/851..although they have been strengthened with extra webbing since then...
Steve
98 916
Desmoface
>tests... iisssshhh.... and I "heard" in '98 race seconds were sent to some
>privateers as new cases...
>
>John D.
Well, I've been on the duc mailing list for some time now, and I've never heard
of a case failure..let alone anyone being injured on a dyno run...But when your
talkin a semi exotic motorcycle, your gonna have more maintenance...same with
ferrari, same with porsche...case failures will happen when you pump up a motor
for racing purposes...I know people with 1026 cc kits in 916 sps's....doesent
seem to be too much of a problem...
Steve
98 916
Eddy Hops
>break cases.
The 916s were BAD. I've read of injuries from the cases coming apart on dyno
Desmoface
>aquaintance and one very good friend that, inside of the past year, have each
>had a 916 clutch explode, from the inside out! The clutch cover on one bike
>was distended, as in stretched from the inside out, like dynamite went of
>inside! Neither motor has been taken apart yet to determine what the cause
>was.
>
>John D.
>
>
That's crazy..never heard of 916's or ducs in general having clutches
exploding...common problems are electrical/voltage regulators if my memory
serve's me correctly..the current concern on 4 valve ducs is bad rockers..hard
surfacing too thin, wearing through often takin cams with them...seem's like it
may be severe enough for a possible recall...but lots of noted occurences on
the duc list...but, I never said the duc's were perfect, didn't yamaha have
several recall's on the r1?? i believe one of them was clutch related....
Steve
98 916
Eddy Hops
>heard
>of a case failure..
Well, although we are not sure yet what the actual failure was, I have one
Steve (cb)R
> >Well, although we are not sure yet what the actual failure was, I have
one
> >aquaintance and one very good friend that, inside of the past year, have
each
> >had a 916 clutch explode, from the inside out! The clutch cover on one
bike
> >was distended, as in stretched from the inside out, like dynamite went of
> >inside! Neither motor has been taken apart yet to determine what the
cause
> >was.
> >
> >John D.
> >
> >
> exploding...common problems are electrical/voltage regulators if my memory
> serve's me correctly..the current concern on 4 valve ducs is bad
rockers..hard
> surfacing too thin, wearing through often takin cams with them...seem's
like it
> may be severe enough for a possible recall...but lots of noted occurences
on
> the duc list...but, I never said the duc's were perfect, didn't yamaha
have
> several recall's on the r1?? i believe one of them was clutch related....
>
> Steve
> 98 916
Another common problem ( so I have been told ) is rear sprocket bushes
coming loose and wearing the eccentric adjuster away, happened on mine 2
months ago ( supposed to be more common on 98 models ). Got it fixed under
warranty.
--
St...@916duc.co.uk CBR 900, (98) 916, Z1-B
www.916duc.co.uk
748 / 916 / 996 Riders views wanted
---------------------------------------------------
Eddy Hops
>exploding...
I consulted the Ducati Index (http://www.cowin-tech.com/Ducati/) about it
several months ago and received one reply of something similar happening... but
that's as far as I researched it.
John D.
Andy Burnett
>Well, I've been on the duc mailing list for some time now, and I've never
heard
Most of the "failures" I'm aware of were not catastrophic explosions, but
rather hairline cracks. I've neve heard of someone being hurt on a dyno
run. The usual scenario is that the case cracks around the end bearing on
the crankshaft and then the bearing spins.
You're right that they've beefed up the cases, but it's probably not enough.
The problem has as much to do with the quality of the casting as the amount
of material in the case. Ducati's casting quality (outsourced) has gotten
better over time, but it's still sub-par to typical Japanese castings.
>...I know people with 1026 cc kits in 916 sps's....doesent
>seem to be too much of a problem...
The problems don't occur because there's a 1026 kit in the motor; they occur
when the power output and vibration overcome the strength of the case.
That's unlikely to happen on the street. People with 1026 kits in their
Ducs don't normally operate the engine at capacity much of the time.
ab
Richard Rossi
FYI, the R6 won the world supersport manufacturers title last year. Six different
riders won races on them but none had enough points to claim the individual title. I
believe a Ducati won the supersport races last week in Monza. In fact, I believe
Ducatis and Yamahas took something like six of the top seven spots.
Dick Rossi
Mark wrote:
>
> The fact of the matter is that the F4 is probably just as good at being a sportbike
> as the 748. I don't follow world supersport, but how has the 748 done against the
> Japanese 600s? Your comments lead me to believe that it is competitive, but
Larry at Best
"Andy Burnett" <abur...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8gkid5$6cr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8F3E9FE99ssto...@206.184.139.132>,
> ssto...@devious.com (Scott Storkel) wrote:
> > I own a 1999 Honda CBR600F4. My friend owns a Ducati 748. The
> > last time we went to Buttonwillow, he let me ride it around the
> > track for a couple of laps. Here are my impressions:
>
> that leaves more parts for me! ;-) Even so, I thought I'd chime in. I
> don't own a 748; I own a 916, which is the same chassis. Moreover, if
> I'm guessing correctly as to who your friend is, I've ridden the very
> bike you did.
>
> > * The 748 is well nigh impossible to turn! The F4 flicks back
> > and forth with ease, the Ducati does not. I absolutely HATED
> > this aspect of the Duc! If you buy a 748, you'll have to learn
> > how to ride all over again; it's that different.
>
> not *that* bad. I can turn my 916 from upright to max lean in less than
> .5 second at 100mph. It does require more effort, but I wonder if your
> posture on the bike might have had anything to do with the perception
> that the thing turns slowly. With the clipons as low as they were, you
> must crouch quite a bit in order to push straight forward on the bars.
> If you don't crouch enough, you will find yourself pushing somewhat down
> on the bars (they don't turn that direction) and wondering why the bike
> is so heavy steering. Could that have happened?
>
> Saying you'll have to learn to ride all over again isn't altogether
> inaccurate. If you've been accustomed to sitting more upright on a
> bike, you'll need to adapt a different position. Other than that, it's
> just another motorcycle.
>
> > * The riding position of the 748 is Hell, in more ways that one.
> > To start, the clip-ons are so low that it's almost impossible
> > to avoid putting weight on your wrists. Everybody knows about
> > this.
>
> It's easier to keep weight off your wrists when you're on the gas too.
> ;-)
>
> > You have to exert
> > a LOT of force to pull the clutch lever in on the Duc.
>
> my ST1100 is worse. The 916 doesn't seem all that different than most
> sportbikes to me.
>
> > * The Ducati's brakes have better initial bite than the F4. They
> > might be a tad more wooden than the F4, but they did give me the
> > feeling that they could stop the bike quicker.
>
> From a functionality standpoint, this would be my biggest criticism of
> these bikes.
>
> > * The Duc has much better ground clearance than the F4.
>
> on a 748, you're crashing.
>
> > * As everyone says, the Ducati has loads of torque available at
> > just about any RPM as opposed to the F4, which doesn't start to
> > pull hard until you hit 7000+ RPM. The Ducati's torque curve felt
> > much flatter than the F4's. I really like the way the F4 gives you
> > a big hit of power at 7-8K RPM, so this wasn't a plus for me.
>
>
> > * The range on the Ducati is pretty bad. I can usually get through
> > most of a track day without needing fuel. My friend usually has
> > to fill the 748's tank once or twice during the day.
>
> bike you rode is the one I think it is, it has an FIM chip in it, which
> is thirstier. I have the same chip. Prior to installing it, my fuel
> economy was about 15% better.
>
> > My friend loves his 748, but after riding it around the track for
> > 20 minutes, there's no way I'd ever trade my F4 for one. Even if
> > I was looking for a track-only bike, I wouldn't purchase a Ducati!
>
> reliability. I've always loved riding it and hated owning it.
>
> ab
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
I haven't ridden the mystery owner's 748 (let's see that would be.....never
mind, let's keep it a mystery, although I saw ab riding it) But I have
ridden another mystery owner's 916, and I owned a Honda F4.
The turn in on the F4 is MUCH lighter, due in large part to the fact that
the bars are up high, and are wide. Once I put an oval cannister on the F4,
and ramped up the rear preload a bit, there was no problem with ground
clearance. If you don't need romance, then the F-4 is a super all-arounder
with terrific sportbike cred on the street. If I could stand the sound of
the 600 in-line four, I'd still have mine. Much better bike than my dull,
but well written up V FR800, and better handling than my former 96 Honda 900
CBR RR.
The clutch pull on my Duc Monster is harder than on my Honda RC-51 by a
considerable amount. After about 150 clutch pulls in a day, my hand gets
tired. Luckily for me, a mystery advisor suggested that I start doing my
upshifts without the clutch, which completely solves the problem.
Reliability is exactly what worries me about Ducs. If you are a credible
wrench, I can't think of a more romantic, better sounding, more fun bike to
own than any Duc. But if you have shops do everything for you (which is
pretty much what I do) then it gets too expensive to roll up real miles on a
Duc.
The F4 has that bulletproof Honda reliability.
But still, if someone could afford both, and would only use the Duc for
limited duty, having both still seems like the way to go.
Larry
00 Honda RC-51
98 Duc Monster 900 For Sale (please buy this bike)
00 R-1 just went away to the next guy on the list, and my new order comes in
next week, if the Duc sells.
supatech
Mark <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:392D4F27...@nowhere.com...
> I think it is highly unlikely that a Ducati dealer will give test rides on
a 748.
> I don't know - I've never checked - but it seems unlikely. As for the F4,
no, I
> don't have one. Remember that I based my opinion on various reviews and
> commentary. As for the 748's greatness, it is now apparent that judgement
is based
> on one person's opinion - yours. I stand by my statement that the 748 is
a "poor"
that is only
> my opinion. It is a bike for someone who thinks Ducatis are
special/different but
> can't see forking over $16-17K for one. The possible exception is if it
is
> intended as a race bike. Even then, one has to wonder why someone would
race one.
> It is considerably more expensive to operate and apparently won't provide
better
> results than the "very tough" Japanese competition. In any case, I don't
think the
> original poster said anything about racing, so it is something of a moot
point.
> Again, the only reason to choose the 748 (for a street bike) is because
you think
> it looks and/or sounds good or because of some fondness for the uniqueness
that is
> a Ducati.
>
> Mark
Mark,
The only dealer that has given me a test ride was the Ducati dealer.
Actually he knew that I was not in the market for the 748 or the 996 but the
Supersport models (900SS & 750SS). The guys at the dealership in Baton
Rouge, LA. (Heberts Cycles) does have a test ride program. I purchased the
1999 750SS, because I liked it and got a better price for it than a 99 F4.
The Honda Dealer wouldnt dream of giving a test ride. I rode a friends F4
and was impressed with the power but it felt like a jet ski and didnt give
me much confidence.
On the 748 being the poor mans 996 I have to disagree. (I do not own one
but have ridden them, as well as the 996) The 748 is no more uncomfortable
than a GSXR 750. It is also geared lower than the 996. Giving you better
access to the power that it makes. It is a perfectly valid bike and not one
you "settle" for.
To conclude I enjoy most of the talk in the NG and get some good
information from here, but there is too much emphasis on what is read in the
magazines or what happens on the race track. I have left people for dead in
the twisties while riding my 750SS (with its "paltry 65HP") that were riding
Gixxer 750's and ZX9R's. (only to have them blister my paint when the
straights are long!!!!) It is the rider that makes the difference! And the
two best riders in my group are riding an F4 and a 748.
Buy what you like (or can afford in my case) and ride like you want.
Thanks
Roger Robinson
Scott Storkel <ssto...@devious.com> wrote in message
news:8F3E9FE99ssto...@206.184.139.132...
> jmar...@stargate.net (Joe Marnell) wrote in
> <simesd...@corp.supernews.com>:
>
> >Outside of the obvious, I would love to here opinions on the differences,
> >change around to keep the Honda and buy the Ducati (that would be cool
> >though) should I make the leap, or be thankful for what I've got?
>
> last time we went to Buttonwillow, he let me ride it around the
> track for a couple of laps. Here are my impressions:
>
> and forth with ease, the Ducati does not. I absolutely HATED
> this aspect of the Duc! If you buy a 748, you'll have to learn
> how to ride all over again; it's that different.
>
> To start, the clip-ons are so low that it's almost impossible
> to avoid putting weight on your wrists. Everybody knows about
> far you can see. On the F4, I was used to being able to turn my
> head and look all the way through Buttonwillow's Turn 2/2a. On
> the Duc, I couldn't lift my head up enough to see through the
> turn. This was a bit unnerving coming off the F4, but I suppose
> you'd get used to it if the Duc was your only bike.
>
> * The Ducati clutch wasn't as bad as I'd heard, but that's not to
> say that it was good. The neutral light and the transmission didn't
> seem to be connected; I stalled the bike once when the light said
> it was in neutral, but it wasn't. My friend says that it's also
> easy to find false neutrals between the gears. You have to exert
> a LOT of force to pull the clutch lever in on the Duc. This would
> become a real problem in city traffic, I think.
>
> might be a tad more wooden than the F4, but they did give me the
> brakes on the Duc, but I wasn't trying to trail-brake or get
> absolute stopping power out of them.
>
> * The Duc has much better ground clearance than the F4. In fact the
> F4 has pretty bad ground clearance (I'm just saying that because I
> managed to drag the pipe and low-side at Buttonwillow last week).
>
> just about any RPM as opposed to the F4, which doesn't start to
> pull hard until you hit 7000+ RPM. The Ducati's torque curve felt
> much flatter than the F4's. I really like the way the F4 gives you
> a big hit of power at 7-8K RPM, so this wasn't a plus for me.
>
> most of a track day without needing fuel. My friend usually has
> to fill the 748's tank once or twice during the day.
>
> 20 minutes, there's no way I'd ever trade my F4 for one. Even if
> I was looking for a track-only bike, I wouldn't purchase a Ducati
Sorry but this is crap ....... the 748 turns in like nothing else, yes it's
a radical riding position, but give it a couple of weeks and your wrists get
used to it !
How anyone can say the Duc is a slow turner confuses me, christ it's known
for being quick and easy to turn, plus it just feels so much more planted,
stuck to the road.
I've gone from a Kawasaki ZZR600 to a Yamaha 1000R (Thunderace) and now to a
748BP ..... what is the most fun?, why am I smiling all the time? ..... get
the Ducati, yes it takes some time to get used to, but once you have :-))))
Roger
Access
news:392D94DF...@rossico.com...
> Mark,
>
> FYI, the R6 won the world supersport manufacturers title last year. Six
different
> riders won races on them but none had enough points to claim the
individual title. I
> believe a Ducati won the supersport races last week in Monza. In fact, I
believe
> Ducatis and Yamahas took something like six of the top seven spots.
>
> Dick Rossi
>
> Mark wrote:
But the '99 SuperSport Champion was on a GSX-R .
Trev
Saddlebag
quotes BEFORE you buy one.
Good luck on your decision!
--chris (Yellow! 748)
-----------------------------------------
The required service intervals on my Duc are occur roughly every 7k miles which
run < $500 unless tires, chains etc. are required. Insurance is $269/year full
coverage $500 deductible. They are not as refined as most Hondas, but have many
other desirable attributes well detailed in other posts.
Andy Burnett
> last time we went to Buttonwillow, he let me ride it around the
> track for a couple of laps. Here are my impressions:
So, Scott, I'm not personally outraged that you didn't like the Duc --
that leaves more parts for me! ;-) Even so, I thought I'd chime in. I
don't own a 748; I own a 916, which is the same chassis. Moreover, if
I'm guessing correctly as to who your friend is, I've ridden the very
bike you did.
> * The 748 is well nigh impossible to turn! The F4 flicks back
> and forth with ease, the Ducati does not. I absolutely HATED
> this aspect of the Duc! If you buy a 748, you'll have to learn
> how to ride all over again; it's that different.
The 748/916 for sure requires more effort to turn than your F4, but it's
not *that* bad. I can turn my 916 from upright to max lean in less than
.5 second at 100mph. It does require more effort, but I wonder if your
posture on the bike might have had anything to do with the perception
that the thing turns slowly. With the clipons as low as they were, you
must crouch quite a bit in order to push straight forward on the bars.
If you don't crouch enough, you will find yourself pushing somewhat down
on the bars (they don't turn that direction) and wondering why the bike
is so heavy steering. Could that have happened?
Saying you'll have to learn to ride all over again isn't altogether
inaccurate. If you've been accustomed to sitting more upright on a
bike, you'll need to adapt a different position. Other than that, it's
just another motorcycle.
> * The riding position of the 748 is Hell, in more ways that one.
> To start, the clip-ons are so low that it's almost impossible
> to avoid putting weight on your wrists. Everybody knows about
> this.
Well, it's not impossible, but your lower back gets a good workout.
It's easier to keep weight off your wrists when you're on the gas too.
;-)
> You have to exert
> a LOT of force to pull the clutch lever in on the Duc.
Hmmm. I hear everyone say this and I don't get it. The clutch pull on
my ST1100 is worse. The 916 doesn't seem all that different than most
sportbikes to me.
> * The Ducati's brakes have better initial bite than the F4. They
> might be a tad more wooden than the F4, but they did give me the
> feeling that they could stop the bike quicker.
I'm kind of surprized at this. I'm underwhelmed by stock Ducati brakes.
From a functionality standpoint, this would be my biggest criticism of
these bikes.
> * The Duc has much better ground clearance than the F4.
And everything else this side of a TZ250. If you touch hard parts down
on a 748, you're crashing.
> * As everyone says, the Ducati has loads of torque available at
> just about any RPM as opposed to the F4, which doesn't start to
> pull hard until you hit 7000+ RPM. The Ducati's torque curve felt
> much flatter than the F4's. I really like the way the F4 gives you
> a big hit of power at 7-8K RPM, so this wasn't a plus for me.
You'd love a TZ, then!
> * The range on the Ducati is pretty bad. I can usually get through
> most of a track day without needing fuel. My friend usually has
> to fill the 748's tank once or twice during the day.
I can go about 100 miles on a tank at a track like Buttonwillow. If the
bike you rode is the one I think it is, it has an FIM chip in it, which
is thirstier. I have the same chip. Prior to installing it, my fuel
economy was about 15% better.
> My friend loves his 748, but after riding it around the track for
> 20 minutes, there's no way I'd ever trade my F4 for one. Even if
MMarchelya
>Date: 5/25/00 10:04 AM Mountain Daylight Time
>Message-id: <392D4F27...@nowhere.com>
>
> As for the 748's greatness, it is now apparent that judgement is
>based
>on one person's opinion - yours.
No, it's mine, too. ;-)
I stand by my statement that the 748 is a
>"poor"
>man's 916/996
I'll believe that when I see a line of people who stop at the Salvation Army
for a bowl of soup then run off to buy 748's cause they can't afford the
*expensive* ones.
>and will never qualify as an all-time great. Of course, that
>is only
>my opinion.
It's an all-time great because it's almost identical to the 916/996, with one
exception. See below.
> It is a bike for someone who thinks Ducatis are
>special/different but
>can't see forking over $16-17K for one.
Big deal. I've got an aunt who can't understand why anyone would ever ride a
motorcycle, period. So what?
>Again, the only reason to choose the 748 (for a street bike) is because you
>think
>it looks and/or sounds good or because of some fondness for the uniqueness
>that is
>a Ducati.
>
From someone who who actually owns both a 748 and a 996, the opinion was that
the 748 handled even better than it's bigger sibling and the power of the
*little* motor was more than enough for him and anyone else who had ridden the
bike, except on longer straight sections when it was all a matter of motor and
who was riding was of little consequence as to how the bike performed. Ducs are
rarely chosen for straight line performance, anyway, so the point is moot.
Jeff
Hmmm, "poor" man's 996? My 748 was $13,995 vs. $16,495 for the 996.
If I WANTED the 996 I would have bought it. But I liked the higher
rev'ing 748. I've rode the snot outta mine and love it. I think the
748/916/996 family are all classic bikes, regardless of engine
displacement.
>
>I think it is highly unlikely that a Ducati dealer will give test rides on a 748.
>I don't know - I've never checked - but it seems unlikely. As for the F4, no, I
>don't have one. Remember that I based my opinion on various reviews and
>commentary. As for the 748's greatness, it is now apparent that judgement is based
>on one person's opinion - yours. I stand by my statement that the 748 is a "poor"
>man's 916/996 and will never qualify as an all-time great. Of course, that is only
>my opinion. It is a bike for someone who thinks Ducatis are special/different but
>can't see forking over $16-17K for one. The possible exception is if it is
>intended as a race bike. Even then, one has to wonder why someone would race one.
>It is considerably more expensive to operate and apparently won't provide better
>results than the "very tough" Japanese competition. In any case, I don't think the
>original poster said anything about racing, so it is something of a moot point.
>Again, the only reason to choose the 748 (for a street bike) is because you think
>it looks and/or sounds good or because of some fondness for the uniqueness that is
>a Ducati.
>
>Mark
>
Desmoface
>Mmmm....Unbeatable eh? Ask Casoli about his last few seasons
>on the 748! 14th place!
>
Ask Xaus about his 748 this year...hehe..
Steve
98 916
Mark
> > I don't follow world supersport, but how has the 748 done against the
> >Japanese 600s? Your comments lead me to believe that it is competitive, but
> >definitely not superior.
>
> I suggest you watch a race or two before commenting on a subject you admitedly
> dont know much about..
>
> Steve
> 98 916
I suggest you try to follow the discussion a little better. The 748's racetrack
performance is only one factor to consider. Remember, the original poster said
nothing about racing either bike. He was looking for comments about all aspects
of each bike. I am simply on the side of choosing a better all-around motorcycle
that is much less expensive vs. a more aesthetic, race-oriented motorcycle.
Mark
Scott Storkel
>So, Scott, I'm not personally outraged that you didn't like the Duc --
>that leaves more parts for me! ;-) Even so, I thought I'd chime in. I
>don't own a 748; I own a 916, which is the same chassis. Moreover, if
>I'm guessing correctly as to who your friend is, I've ridden the very
>bike you did.
I rode my friend Arthur's bike. It's a completely stock "standard"
model (not an S, SPS, R, etc), has the non-adjustable steering
damper, and was riding on Dunlop 207GPs (as I recall). It wasn't
setup for me and, quite frankly, I don't know that it's been setup
for him, either.
>> * The 748 is well nigh impossible to turn! The F4 flicks back
>> and forth with ease, the Ducati does not. I absolutely HATED
>> this aspect of the Duc! If you buy a 748, you'll have to learn
>> how to ride all over again; it's that different.
>
>The 748/916 for sure requires more effort to turn than your F4, but it's
>not *that* bad. I can turn my 916 from upright to max lean in less than
>.5 second at 100mph. It does require more effort, but I wonder if your
>posture on the bike might have had anything to do with the perception
>that the thing turns slowly. With the clipons as low as they were, you
>must crouch quite a bit in order to push straight forward on the bars.
>If you don't crouch enough, you will find yourself pushing somewhat down
>on the bars (they don't turn that direction) and wondering why the bike
>is so heavy steering. Could that have happened?
Maybe to a degree... I did have my butt well back on the seat
and my body crouched forward, trying to keep weight off my
wrists so I could push straight forward on the bars. After a
couple of laps, my lower back was threatening revolt and I had
no choice but to rest some weight on the bars.
Even when I had no weight on the bars and was pushing straight
forward, I still thought the bike was more difficult to turn than
my F4 (or the '99 ZX-6Rs I rode at the Superbike School, for that
matter). Perhaps better setup or a different steering damper would
cure this "problem", but this particular bike just didn't work for
me...
>> * The riding position of the 748 is Hell, in more ways that one.
>> To start, the clip-ons are so low that it's almost impossible
>> to avoid putting weight on your wrists. Everybody knows about
>> this.
>
>Well, it's not impossible, but your lower back gets a good workout.
>It's easier to keep weight off your wrists when you're on the gas too.
>;-)
My lower back definitely wasn't up to the challenge. I can
stay bent over the F4 all day, but I just haven't developed
the endurance for the Ducati. Perhaps I need to work my way
up to it progressively? I could start out with a ZX-6R, then
switch to an R6, and then the Duc :-)
>> You have to exert
>> a LOT of force to pull the clutch lever in on the Duc.
>
>Hmmm. I hear everyone say this and I don't get it. The clutch pull on
>my ST1100 is worse. The 916 doesn't seem all that different than most
>sportbikes to me.
As I recall, you're a climber and you've got pretty big hands.
I'd imagine you've got *much* better grip strength than I do...
>> * The Ducati's brakes have better initial bite than the F4. They
>> might be a tad more wooden than the F4, but they did give me the
>> feeling that they could stop the bike quicker.
>
>I'm kind of surprized at this. I'm underwhelmed by stock Ducati brakes.
>From a functionality standpoint, this would be my biggest criticism of
>these bikes.
Interesting. I find that the F4's brakes are almost *too*
progressive, which is probably why I liked the Ducati.
>> * The range on the Ducati is pretty bad. I can usually get through
>> most of a track day without needing fuel. My friend usually has
>> to fill the 748's tank once or twice during the day.
>
>I can go about 100 miles on a tank at a track like Buttonwillow. If the
>bike you rode is the one I think it is, it has an FIM chip in it, which
>is thirstier. I have the same chip. Prior to installing it, my fuel
>economy was about 15% better.
Don't think Arthur has done anything to the bike chip-wise,
but I'm not sure... 80-100 miles/tank sounds about right
though. Could be he's just more paranoid about gas that
you are. Seems like he's always looking to fill up...
Scott Storkel
hme0>:
>Sorry but this is crap ....... the 748 turns in like nothing else, yes it's
>a radical riding position, but give it a couple of weeks and your wrists get
>used to it !
>
>How anyone can say the Duc is a slow turner confuses me, christ it's known
>for being quick and easy to turn, plus it just feels so much more planted,
>stuck to the road.
I've *NEVER* seen *ANYONE* say that a 748 or 996 turns as
quickly as the comptetition. In fact, I'd be happy to send you
a half-dozen reviews which say that the 748/916/996 require "high
steering effort" or "quite a bit of muscle" to initiate turn-in
(and I think *that* is being kind), that the bikes are very stable
once leaned, and that mid-corner steering changes aren't bad.
Perhaps you've been riding around of Foggy's WSB race bike rather
than the bone-stock 748 I was using?
Erik Astrup
??
Ask him what?
He's only scored 10 points all year and is in 17th place.
Mark
> > Of course, that is only my opinion.<
>
Are you retarded or something? Maybe just neurotic. If you're trying to debate
some issue, then it would make sense to include the parts of the post to which you
are responding. That way, maybe someone (yourself included) will know what you are
talking about. All you've done here is bring up topics that are mostly, if not
completely, irrelevant to the discussion and to anything that I said.
I stated very clearly that I hadn't ridden a 748. Don't need to. I also stated
that my opinions were based on what I had read or heard. So no, I am not
especially qualified to determine whether the 748 is a good bike, other that the
fact that I read just about everything I can about various sportbikes. But then
again, that wasn't the issue. I never said it wasn't a good bike and I never said
Ducati "doesn't know how to build competitive motorcycles." I said that, for a
one-bike person, I believe the F4 is a better choice and that it is a better
all-around motorcycle at a much lower cost. The issue of on-track performance is a
very small factor here as the original poster did not state that he would ever take
either bike on a track. And again, as I stated before, any on-track superiority is
going to be so marginal as to not really affect the choice. (Also, with an F4, a
person could use the extra $4-5K to upgrade the F4 into a superior track weapon.)
As I stated, the only real reason to choose the 748 is for some sort of aesthetic
(sight, sound, posing, etc.) appeal.
As for the various racing series, I watch everything except World Supersport. If
it were available to me, I would watch that, too. I am well aware that the 916/996
has done very well in the two superbike series. But that has nothing to do with
the 748, now does it? And it has even less to do with what is a better street
bike. Maybe you should read the Motorcycle Online comparison mentioned by another
poster. I think you could use a dose of reality.
Mark
Mark
> >Mark nob...@nowhere.com
> >Date: 5/25/00 10:04 AM Mountain Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <392D4F27...@nowhere.com>
> >
>
> > As for the 748's greatness, it is now apparent that judgement is
> >based
> >on one person's opinion - yours.
>
> No, it's mine, too. ;-)
So, you think the 748 is one of the all-time great motorcycles? Why? It's based
on the 916, so there's no cutting edge technology. Compared to its competition, it
is grossly overpriced. Actually, it costs more than every Japanese sport bike
made, including open-class bikes. The engine is underpowered. I'm sorry - I just
can't agree that it qualifies as an all-time great motorcycle. It's a
great-handling, aesthetically pleasing bike but not an all-time great.
>
>
> I stand by my statement that the 748 is a
> >"poor"
> >man's 916/996
>
> I'll believe that when I see a line of people who stop at the Salvation Army
> for a bowl of soup then run off to buy 748's cause they can't afford the
> *expensive* ones.
I used quotes to indicate that "poor" was a very relative statement. It's kind of
like people who buy 883 Sportsters because they have to have a Harley.
Mark
Mark
> On Thu, 25 May 2000 12:04:55 -0400, Mark <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> Hmmm, "poor" man's 996? My 748 was $13,995 vs. $16,495 for the 996.
> If I WANTED the 996 I would have bought it. But I liked the higher
> rev'ing 748. I've rode the snot outta mine and love it. I think the
> 748/916/996 family are all classic bikes, regardless of engine
> displacement.
Interesting. If I was going to blow that much money, I would get the 996, which is a
classic, by the way. To each his own...
Mark
Desmoface
>racetrack
>performance is only one factor to consider. Remember, the original poster
>said
>nothing about racing either bike. He was looking for comments about all
>aspects
>of each bike. I am simply on the side of choosing a better all-around
>motorcycle
>that is much less expensive vs. a more aesthetic, race-oriented motorcycle.
>
>Mark
>
>
supersport then the 748 (which IS what the poster was referring to) and it's a
much better street bike......you win Mark...maybe it's time to let this thread
die??
Steve
98 916
Mark
> An interesting side note, Motorcycle.com just did a 600 shootout, where they
> included the 748.
> www.motorcycle.com/mo/mccompare/00_600s.html
>
> Daniel
> '00 YZF600R
> Austin, TX
The 748 came in 5th. For the numerically challenged out there, that's last.
I rest my case.
Mark
Andy Burnett
Scott Storkel wrote in message
<8F406147Cssto...@206.184.139.132>...
>I rode my friend Arthur's bike.
You and I rode different actual bikes, but they were generally the same.
>After a
>couple of laps, my lower back was threatening revolt and I had
>no choice but to rest some weight on the bars.
Yeah, it's a riding position that takes some conditioning to tolerate, let
alone enjoy.
>Even when I had no weight on the bars and was pushing straight
>forward, I still thought the bike was more difficult to turn than
>my F4 (or the '99 ZX-6Rs I rode at the Superbike School, for that
>matter). Perhaps better setup or a different steering damper would
>cure this "problem", but this particular bike just didn't work for
>me...
The 748 does have an adjustable steering head that can be set to one of two
positions. If your friend hasn't played with this, it's set to the more
conservative geometry. This will make the bike steer a little more slowly.
But if the bike you rode had 207GP's on it, at least you had a quick-turning
tire, as they have a more triangular cross-section.
Any way you set it up, the 748 takes more effort to steer than an F4 will.
It's one of the reasons these bike are so stable mid-turn. On a side note,
Honda have done an amazing job with the RC-51. It is at *least* as stable
as a 916 in a turn and the steering effort is distinctly lighter.
>My lower back definitely wasn't up to the challenge. I can
>stay bent over the F4 all day, but I just haven't developed
>the endurance for the Ducati. Perhaps I need to work my way
>up to it progressively? I could start out with a ZX-6R, then
>switch to an R6, and then the Duc :-)
I'm not sure anything prepares you for riding a Duc except riding a Duc!
>As I recall, you're a climber and you've got pretty big hands.
>I'd imagine you've got *much* better grip strength than I do...
I'm also a fairly *heavy* climber. Yes, I have strong hands and I've never
met a clutch lever I didn't like. ;-)
>Interesting. I find that the F4's brakes are almost *too*
>progressive, which is probably why I liked the Ducati.
I've put ductile iron rotors and EBC HH pads on my 916 and they work like I
think they should now. Before that, I found them disappointing.
>Don't think Arthur has done anything to the bike chip-wise,
>but I'm not sure... 80-100 miles/tank sounds about right
>though. Could be he's just more paranoid about gas that
>you are. Seems like he's always looking to fill up...
Yeah, well, I ran out of gas at Buttonwillow the last time I was there. I
probably could stand to be a bit *more* paranoid. On the street, I get
about 145 miles to a tank.
ab
Desmoface
>based
>on the 916, so there's no cutting edge technology. Compared to its
>competition, it
>is grossly overpriced. Actually, it costs more than every Japanese sport
>bike
>made, including open-class bikes. The engine is underpowered. I'm sorry - I
>just
>can't agree that it qualifies as an all-time great motorcycle. It's a
>great-handling, aesthetically pleasing bike but not an all-time great.
>
I have to agree....It's almost like 748 is a great bike inherently,
pedegree...It is based on the 916, one of the most successful racing bikes ever
produced...the fact that honda is has built a ducati to race in superbike, and
the fact that the ducati has been competitive since its global introduction at
the end of 93 is all testament to its greatness...again, all opinion here..but
i'd say that the 748 will go down in history as one of the truly great
motorcycles...too bad it's not allowed to race in ama 600 competition..
Steve
98 916
Erik Astrup
>i'd say that the 748 will go down in history as one of the truly great
>motorcycles...too bad it's not allowed to race in ama 600 competition..
And get smoked like it does in WSS?? :P
<ducking and running>
YRo1011246
>
>If I were to get a Duck, I love to hate them, I would go for a well kept '95
>916... anything else you're wasting your money on... the 748 is low on power
>and high on expense, especially a new one...
Obviuosly you don't know much about 916's ( let's see '95 was like a bad
Ducati year). A '98 748 makes almost as much power as a '95 916. My 748 has
been faster than some 916s on track. Oh on- track is the place you must take
your 748 to really fall in love with it!!!
>I turned in my 94 911 for a 74 911, it's a fifth the price and a lot more
>fun to drive... don't assume something new and shiny is always better than
>something well-worn...
So a Pantah then?
>
>But, when it's all said and done, go with whatever puts the biggest smile on
>your face... after 100 miles though, not in the showroom...
>
>best of luck, these are great dilemmas to have...
>
>Spiros
>
YRo1011246
>(as
>an all-timer), but not the 748. The fact that it has "Ducati" on it does not
>automatically make it "great." To me, the 748 is a Ducati for people who
>want a
>Ducati sportbike but can't afford the 996. That's not really saying a lot.
>
>In any case, the only reason to choose the 748 here is because you want
>something
>different (i.e., something besides a Japanese I4), something that provides
>some
>sort of romantic or aesthetic appeal. Not that there's anything wrong with
>that,
>but based on everything I've read and heard, the F4 is a better motorcycle.
>In
>every comparison I've seen with top-of-the-line 600cc sportbikes, the 748
>comes
>last. Is there really anything that the 748 does better, other than maybe
>look or
>sound good? Apparently not. When you consider the enormous price
>difference, I
>personally can not see choosing the 748.
>
>Mark
>
You've obviously never ridden one. You read a lot.
YRo1011246
>F4? I
>think the numbers would embarass you. In fact, it is not popular because it
>is too
>expensive, too uncomfortable, requires too much maintenance, and doesn't
>provide
>enough, if any, extra performance that would justify its shortcomings.
>
>>
Gee I've passed a lot of F-4s at track days. And I've yet to see a spotty
youth on a 748.
YRo1011246
>racetrack
>performance is only one factor to consider. Remember, the original poster
>said
>nothing about racing either bike. He was looking for comments about all
>aspects
>of each bike. I am simply on the side of choosing a better all-around
>motorcycle
>that is much less expensive vs. a more aesthetic, race-oriented motorcycle.
>
>Mark
>
>
the '87 CBR600 because in 11 years, thats what an F-4 is going to be! The '87
Hurricane was a ground breaking shit kicking motorbike when it was released.
Who double takes when they see it now? Now what about an 851? Totally
impractical and unreliable by even Ducati standards. Which one would you want?
The Ducati is about emotion. The narrow performance feeds into that. The F-4
is an appliance. It is about usefulness and painless sterility. You may
really "like" the F-4, someday you may even reach nostalgia, but you will never
"love" the F-4.
YRo1011246
>748.
Competition Accesories let me ride both a 916 and a new 748. I took the 748
because of the revs and power (to me )is not very different to justify the list
price difference. I took the extra money and bought another bike. I might buy
the new 999 depending on what it looks like but if it sucks, I'm keeping the
748 and getting a 2001 996 with the Marchesini wheels and Ohlins shock.
You should read less and ride more!
YRo1011246
>you won't care. An R-1 or RC-51 will beat a Duc in most situations, but
>there is nothing that sounds like, or looks as good as a Duc.
>
>Larry
>00 RC-51
>98 Duc Monster 900 FOR SALE
>00 R-1 (just arrived, haven't got it yet)
>>
>>
>> -- Scott
>> --
>> ==========================================================================
>> Scott Storkel
Stock 996 or 748 vs stock RC-51 on track is still open for debate!
YRo1011246
>wrench, I can't think of a more romantic, better sounding, more fun bike to
>own than any Duc. But if you have shops do everything for you (which is
>pretty much what I do) then it gets too expensive to roll up real miles on a
>Duc.
So you need a sucker to buy your monster?
Desmoface
>
><ducking and running>
>
Ok, if the vtwin (ducati) design is so bad, how come honda bought one, copied
it (and ducati's recipe for success) for it's world superbike?? Where do you
suppose honda got the idea (or anyone else for that matter) for a vtwin
sportbike?? Funny, i was just reading about how a 748r circulated a race track
as fast as an r1...BAHAHHAHA!!! little wimpy, underpowered 748r conquering the
almighty r1 on the track....WOOHOO!!
Since Im sure you will ask, I read it here on this ng...as you probably did
too..
GSX-R 750 1:55:69 (min:sek:msek)
996SPS 1:55:82
R1 1:56:66
748R 1:56:74
And look, another wimpy, underpowered 996sps (oh, and way over priced) was
almost a second faster around the race track then the most powerful production
sportbike..with over 150 changes for y2k..BHAHAHAHAH!!!!
That's a testament to the quality of the ducati design..after all these years,
it has the almost mystical ability to circulate race tracks as fast or faster
then bikes that make more power and weigh less...
Steve
98 916
Access
news:20000527111708...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
For christs sake stop dribbling your pro-Ducati shit please. We all
know they are seriously quick around the track. It is just that some of us
believe that is not the be all and end all of a good bike anyway.
Thr rider is the difference put an averagely quick on the street guy on the
996 and a good racer on a CBR250RR on a tight track and I reckon I would put
money on the racer every time.
Trev
Scott Storkel
cu1.aol.com>:
> The F-4
>is an appliance. It is about usefulness and painless sterility. You
>may really "like" the F-4, someday you may even reach nostalgia, but you
>will never "love" the F-4.
Bullshit. I love my F4! It's truely the best all-aroundbike I've
ridden. The 748, well, you've probably seen my post already...
-- Scott
--
==========================================================================
Steve (cb)R
Access <e...@mypad.com> wrote in message news:3930...@pink.one.net.au...
> "Desmoface" <desm...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000527111708...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
> > >And get smoked like it does in WSS?? :P
> > >
> > ><ducking and running>
> > >
> >
>> [ snipped ]
> For christs sake stop dribbling your pro-Ducati shit please. We all
> know they are seriously quick around the track. It is just that some of
us
> believe that is not the be all and end all of a good bike anyway.
> Thr rider is the difference put an averagely quick on the street guy on
the
> 996 and a good racer on a CBR250RR on a tight track and I reckon I would
put
> money on the racer every time.
>
> Trev
>
>
If any of you want to send me your views on owning or riding a 748 / 916 /
996 ( good or bad, nothing will be edited )send them to me and I will
include them on my site at www.916duc.co.uk
Thanks
--
St...@916duc.co.uk
www.916duc.co.uk
748 / 916 / 996 Riders views wanted
YRo1011246
>>will never "love" the F-4.
>
>Bullshit. I love my F4! It's truely the best all-aroundbike I've
>ridden. The 748, well, you've probably seen my post already...
>
>
>
> --
Scott
>--
Yes you love your F4 untill the F5 comes out.
Mark
> >I suggest you try to follow the discussion a little better. The 748's
> >racetrack
> >performance is only one factor to consider. Remember, the original poster
> >said
> >nothing about racing either bike. He was looking for comments about all
> >aspects
> >of each bike. I am simply on the side of choosing a better all-around
> >motorcycle
> >that is much less expensive vs. a more aesthetic, race-oriented motorcycle.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> Ok, I surrender, the f4 is a better bike...it's much more competitive in world
> supersport then the 748 (which IS what the poster was referring to) and it's a
> much better street bike......you win Mark...maybe it's time to let this thread
> die??
>
> Steve
> 98 916
Probably past time. You obviously believe better race track performance equals
better bike. I think most people would disagree. As I remember, the original
poster stated nothing about racing. He was thinking of "trading" his F4 for the
748 and wanted opinions. He did not mention anything about World Supersport and
he definitely didn't indicate that his choice would, in any way, be based on race
performance
Mark.
Mark
> >So, you think the 748 is one of the all-time great motorcycles? Why? It's
> >based
> >on the 916, so there's no cutting edge technology. Compared to its
> >competition, it
> >is grossly overpriced. Actually, it costs more than every Japanese sport
> >bike
> >made, including open-class bikes. The engine is underpowered. I'm sorry - I
> >just
> >can't agree that it qualifies as an all-time great motorcycle. It's a
> >great-handling, aesthetically pleasing bike but not an all-time great.
> >
>
> I have to agree....It's almost like 748 is a great bike inherently,
> pedegree...It is based on the 916, one of the most successful racing bikes ever
> produced...the fact that honda is has built a ducati to race in superbike, and
> the fact that the ducati has been competitive since its global introduction at
> the end of 93 is all testament to its greatness...again, all opinion here..but
> i'd say that the 748 will go down in history as one of the truly great
> motorcycles...too bad it's not allowed to race in ama 600 competition..
>
> Steve
> 98 916
I have to say I disagree with your logic here. Look at the simple facts. The
RC-51 is in its first year and is arguably beating the Ducati at its own game
(although it is way too early to really tell). That game is beating the 750 I4s
with a ~1000cc V-twin. Given that, one or both of the following two conclusions
must be drawn: (1) A V-twin has an inherent advantage in superbike or (2) the
RC-51 is at least as great as the Ducati. In case (1), the only reason the Ducati
has achieved success is the V-twin "advantage." In case (2), a still "raw"
first-year RC-51 must also be "great." So, if you think Ducatis are great because
of their aesthetic appeal, design, handling, etc., that is one thing. But I
certainly wouldn't base their greatness on the fact that Honda followed their
lead. Of course, if the RC-51 does not continue to see success, then your argument
will carry more weight.
Mark
Mark
> >I suggest you try to follow the discussion a little better. The 748's
> >racetrack
> >performance is only one factor to consider. Remember, the original poster
> >said
> >nothing about racing either bike. He was looking for comments about all
> >aspects
> >of each bike. I am simply on the side of choosing a better all-around
> >motorcycle
> >that is much less expensive vs. a more aesthetic, race-oriented motorcycle.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> How many people "love" there F-4? It's a wonderful machine! But look at
> the '87 CBR600 because in 11 years, thats what an F-4 is going to be! The '87
> Hurricane was a ground breaking shit kicking motorbike when it was released.
> Who double takes when they see it now? Now what about an 851? Totally
> impractical and unreliable by even Ducati standards. Which one would you want?
> The Ducati is about emotion. The narrow performance feeds into that. The F-4
> is an appliance. It is about usefulness and painless sterility. You may
Mark
I've never ridden an F4 either or, for that matter, any of the 2000 600 cc
models. But when the 748 comes last every time it is compared to the 600 cc
models, that tells me something. By the way, have you ridden an F4?
Mark
Desmoface
>The
>RC-51 is in its first year and is arguably beating the Ducati at its own game
>(although it is way too early to really tell). That game is beating the 750
>I4s
>with a ~1000cc V-twin. Given that, one or both of the following two
>conclusions
>must be drawn: (1) A V-twin has an inherent advantage in superbike or (2)
>the
>RC-51 is at least as great as the Ducati. In case (1), the only reason the
>Ducati
>has achieved success is the V-twin "advantage." In case (2), a still "raw"
>first-year RC-51 must also be "great." So, if you think Ducatis are great
>because
>of their aesthetic appeal, design, handling, etc., that is one thing. But I
>certainly wouldn't base their greatness on the fact that Honda followed their
>lead. Of course, if the RC-51 does not continue to see success, then your
>argument
>will carry more weight.
>
>Mark
BAHAHAHHAH!!!
Steve
98 916
Mark
> >I suggest you try to follow the discussion a little better. The 748's
> >racetrack
> >performance is only one factor to consider. Remember, the original poster
> >said
> >nothing about racing either bike. He was looking for comments about all
> >aspects
> >of each bike. I am simply on the side of choosing a better all-around
> >motorcycle
> >that is much less expensive vs. a more aesthetic, race-oriented motorcycle.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> How many people "love" there F-4? It's a wonderful machine! But look at
> the '87 CBR600 because in 11 years, thats what an F-4 is going to be! The '87
> Hurricane was a ground breaking shit kicking motorbike when it was released.
> Who double takes when they see it now? Now what about an 851? Totally
> impractical and unreliable by even Ducati standards. Which one would you want?
If I had only one bike, I would want something that would run and be reliable.
You see, I do ride a lot (to/from work every day). So, I would obviously want the
CBR. Of course, if I wanted an artifact parked in my garage, I would want the
Ducati.
>
> The Ducati is about emotion. The narrow performance feeds into that. The F-4
> is an appliance. It is about usefulness and painless sterility. You may
> really "like" the F-4, someday you may even reach nostalgia, but you will never
> "love" the F-4.
Your bias betrays you. If the Ducati is about emotion, then the F4 is about loving
to just ride. While the Ducati owners are admiring their bikes in the garage, the
F4 owners are out riding. Some Ducati owners commute to work in their Audis or
Volvos, the F4 owners ride to work. Some Ducati owners have a second bike (BMWs,
of course) for commuting or sport-touring, the F4 owners don't. The Ducati owners
take their bikes in to the dealer every two months for repairs, the F4 owners take
theirs in every two years for scheduled maintenance.
Mark
Desmoface
>loving
>to just ride. While the Ducati owners are admiring their bikes in the
>garage, the
>F4 owners are out riding. Some Ducati owners commute to work in their Audis
>or
>Volvos, the F4 owners ride to work. Some Ducati owners have a second bike
>(BMWs,
>of course) for commuting or sport-touring, the F4 owners don't. The Ducati
>owners
>take their bikes in to the dealer every two months for repairs, the F4 owners
>take
>theirs in every two years for scheduled maintenance.
>
>Mark
>
>
>
like to talk a lot...I ride my 916 quite a bit, and it has yet to be back to
the dealership, since it's 600 mile service...You sound to me like you have
ducati envy...Judging by the fact that you seem very opinionated on the
subject...
Steve
98 916
Andy Burnett
>Your bias betrays you.
Yes, his bias does.
>If the Ducati is about emotion, then the F4 is
>about loving to just ride. While the Ducati owners are admiring their
>bikes in the garage, the F4 owners are out riding. Some Ducati owners
>commute to work in their Audis or Volvos, the F4 owners ride to work.
>Some Ducati owners have a second bike (BMWs, of course) for commuting or
>sport-touring, the F4 owners don't. The Ducati owners take their bikes
>in to the dealer every two months for repairs, the F4 owners take theirs
>in every two years for scheduled maintenance.
Your generalization probably has merit. Nevertheless, here's an opposing
view. I don't admire my Duc in the garage; if I'm not riding it, I'm
working on it. Some Ducati riders commute to work on their Ducatis, too.
I do indeed have a second bike -- a Honda ST1100 -- which does the lion's
share of commute duty because it's much more weather-proof, carries more
and I can count on getting home. I do not take my Duc to dealers for
repairs and maintenance; I do nearly all of it myself. And much more often
than every two months.
This sums up my Ducati experience: I love riding it and hate owning it.
ab
Larry at Best
"Mark" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:39341512...@nowhere.com...
> YRo1011246 wrote:
>
>
> Your bias betrays you. If the Ducati is about emotion, then the F4 is
about loving
> to just ride. While the Ducati owners are admiring their bikes in the
garage, the
> F4 owners are out riding. Some Ducati owners commute to work in their
Audis or
> Volvos, the F4 owners ride to work. Some Ducati owners have a second bike
(BMWs,
> of course) for commuting or sport-touring, the F4 owners don't. The
Ducati owners
> take their bikes in to the dealer every two months for repairs, the F4
owners take
> theirs in every two years for scheduled maintenance.
>
I have owned both the F4, and two Ducatis (a 900 SS CR, and a Duc Monster
900) I've also ridden a Superlight, and a 916. I don't think anyone
has ever accused me of being someone who keeps his bike in the garage, or
hangs around posing. Generally, I'm out to ride. This is true on a Duc,
on an F4, or anything else I own. Frankly, almost everyone else I know
from Duc riders to Suzukis to Harleys is of the same mind. People who like
to ride--ride. It isn't a brand thing.
Having said that, I sold my F-4 because the sound bothered me. If it
didn't, I would have kept it. It is the best all around bike I've owned,
far better than my Honda VFR800, which I found boring. Every F-4 rider who
does real miles can be proud of his mount. They are fabulous at a
reasonable price.
But there is a sound and feel to Ducati's that is just the essence of
motorcycling. I'm selling mine, but i know it won't be my last. When I'm
not immediately experiencing my fear of repair bills, then the lure of a
good handling, wonderful sounding, great looking bike brings me back to
Ducatis. I imagine this is something Ferrari owners do, as well. My
Corvette will outrun, out corner, and outperform most of the Ferraris out
there. But that doesn't stop me from listening to one going down the road,
and wishing that I was the driver. That's the "romance" of the Italians.
And Ducatis have it in spades.
If that lure doesn't pull on your heart strings, count yourself lucky.
You've saved yourself hours of preventative maintenance in the garage, or
for all thumb wrenches like me, dollars at the shop. An R-1 or a 929 will
do everything a Duc 996 will do, and maybe better. It just won't have the
same panache.
And the same holds true for an F-4 vs. a 748. You don't need a Ducati.
But for some of us, you do want one. And when we get them, we ride them.
Just like we ride our Hondas.
Larry
00 RC-51 (ok I went the Honda route this time)
98 Duc Monster 900 For Sale!!
>
Scott Storkel
cs1.aol.com>:
>>may really "like" the F-4, someday you may even reach nostalgia, but you
>>>will never "love" the F-4.
>>
>>Bullshit. I love my F4! It's truely the best all-aroundbike I've
>>ridden. The 748, well, you've probably seen my post already...
>>
>
>Yes you love your F4 untill the F5 comes out.
>
Right. I'd forgotten how in demand the old Ducati 851 is...
Face it: in 3 or 4 years both the F4 and the 996 are going
to be old news. You'll still love the Ducati, I'll still
love the Honda, I'll spend time riding, you'll spend time...
wrenching ;-)
YRo1011246
BAHAHAHAHAH....cough..gag..chortle (pass out!)
YRo1011246
>models. But when the 748 comes last every time it is compared to the 600 cc
>models, that tells me something. By the way, have you ridden an F4?
>
>Mark
>
>
years, and my experience is that the latest and greatest gets old pretty damn
fast ( faster than you can get it paid off in fact!).
The last serious Japanese sportbike I've owned was a new 97 GSXR750 with full
Yosh race pipe and jetting. It was a kick ass ride, the mags said it was
better than the 916. It was shit kicking fast. So fast in fact, that it was
really no fun to ride unless you were doing at least 135 which not only pretty
hard to do safely on public roads but really limits the types of roads ( not a
tight country road bike) you could enjoy it on. I had some friends with old
900SS (betcha don't think much of those either, do ya!) I thought " what a
bunch of old slowbies!" On fast roads the Gixxer would murder them. On tight
country roads you'd be suprised at how much you had to "get on it" to keep up.
Still, I was hyper hype addicted. Then I got a ride on one of the old sods.
It was great. It felt like it WANTED to turn. It sounded great.
Eventually I got a ride on a 916 and a 748. I bought the 748. It shares the
garage with an SV650 ( rather have it than an F4 too) an RZ race bike and a '64
Vespa.
If I could only have ONE bike or if I was still in high school or college, yes
an F-4 would be a gimme (I had the original CBR) but you grow out of that and
get tired of the replaceability of the "appliance" bikes.
Truth be told, it's really not applicable to compare the 748 to the 600s. All
of the Nippon sportbikes are cheaper than the 748 so someone who seriously
considers a 748 can easily afford a new R-1, CBR929 and or ZX-9R with lots of
cash leftover for upgrades. I've ridden the R-1. It's a shit kicker too but I
would'nt even consider selling the 748 for it.
YRo1011246
>loving
>to just ride. While the Ducati owners are admiring their bikes in the
>garage, the
>F4 owners are out riding. Some Ducati owners commute to work in their Audis
>or
>Volvos, the F4 owners ride to work. Some Ducati owners have a second bike
>(BMWs,
>of course) for commuting or sport-touring, the F4 owners don't. The Ducati
>owners
>take their bikes in to the dealer every two months for repairs, the F4 owners
>take
>theirs in every two years for scheduled maintenance.
>
>Mark
>
>
miles round trip to work EVERYDAY in OHIO ( barring ice on the roads (ice studs
fly off too often to be practical '99 TE610) and temperatures above 21F). I've
ridden cross country 4 times to the Canadian Rockies. I race an RZ350 in AHRMA
do track days on the 748. On the weekends give lessons on a 440LTD for my
sister and brother, go to the store on whatever closest to the garage door or
just ride around for the hell of it!
Don't love to ride??? PULEEEEAAZZE!!
Try riding a DR650 6000 miles in 8 days or 450 miles when it's 28F outside
then measure up boyo and stop reading so G*damn much!
Desmoface
>to be old news. You'll still love the Ducati, I'll still
>love the Honda, I'll spend time riding, you'll spend time...
>wrenching ;-)
I don't agree...The 916/748/996 and even the 851/888 are very old designs, but
stick one in a bike night parking lot next to an f2, f3, or f4 and see which
bike gets all the attention...the duc's are timeless works of art...Not to take
anything away from the honda's, those who know, know they are great bikes...but
the ducati's do the great bike thing with a touch of style..that the japanese
manufacturers just cant match.
Steve
98 916
Steve (cb)R
In 5, 10 or 20 years time the 748/916/996 will still have the same effect,
like you say its a timeless work of art.
MMarchelya
>Date: 5/30/00 6:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8F44BD2E7ssto...@206.184.139.132>
>
>Right. I'd forgotten how in demand the old Ducati 851 is...
>
>to be old news.
If you can find my old 900SS (bevelhead), which is even older than an 851, just
let me know. I've got cash at the ready. You'll find out just how in demand old
Ducs are. I'd really like a 750SS bevelhead - and they're even older - but
can't afford one of those. On the other hand, if you can find my '70 Honda
CB750, don't waste the stamp.
MMarchelya
wrote:
>Date: 5/30/00 6:46 PM Mountain Daylight Time
>Message-id: <39345e6c$0$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>
>
(snip)
>But there is a sound and feel to Ducati's that is just the essence of
>motorcycling.
(snip)
> An R-1 or a 929 will
>do everything a Duc 996 will do, and maybe better. It just won't have the
>same panache.
And that pretty much sums it up. That *panache* comes at a price to the
manufacturer, too. Honda will sell a lot of motorcycles just because they've
always "sold a lot of motorcycles". A couple of duds in their lineup won't
really make much difference either way. A couple of duds by Ducati, and they
could quickly be back to where they were in the 80's. Nice to see Honda
involved in the V-twin sportbike business, though. Twin's have come as far as
they have (amazingly) on the efforts of one small manufacturer, while
four-cylinder development is the cumulative effort of the four largest
factories in the world. Who knows how far the twins might go now.
supatech
YRo1011246 <yro10...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000531004429...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
YRo1011246
>
>Face it: in 3 or 4 years both the F4 and the 996 are going
>love the Honda, I'll spend time riding, you'll spend time...
>wrenching ;-)
Let'see the basic design of the 916 has been "new" for almost 7 years....
Again park a '90 CBR next to an 851.
I ride more than you do on my other bikes. My 748 will be sitting next to the
999 and don't knock wrenching till you've tried it!
Sabreman
Bravo Larry!
btw, how do you like your RC 51?
"Larry at Best" <l...@will-contests.com> wrote in message
news:39345e6c$0$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
>
> "Mark" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:39341512...@nowhere.com...
> > YRo1011246 wrote:
> >
> >
> > Your bias betrays you. If the Ducati is about emotion, then the F4 is
> about loving
> > to just ride. While the Ducati owners are admiring their bikes in the
> garage, the
> > F4 owners are out riding. Some Ducati owners commute to work in their
> Audis or
> > Volvos, the F4 owners ride to work. Some Ducati owners have a second
bike
> (BMWs,
> > of course) for commuting or sport-touring, the F4 owners don't. The
> Ducati owners
> > take their bikes in to the dealer every two months for repairs, the F4
> owners take
> > theirs in every two years for scheduled maintenance.
> >
> > Mark
>
> I have owned both the F4, and two Ducatis (a 900 SS CR, and a Duc Monster
> 900) I've also ridden a Superlight, and a 916. I don't think anyone
> has ever accused me of being someone who keeps his bike in the garage, or
> hangs around posing. Generally, I'm out to ride. This is true on a Duc,
> on an F4, or anything else I own. Frankly, almost everyone else I know
> from Duc riders to Suzukis to Harleys is of the same mind. People who
like
> to ride--ride. It isn't a brand thing.
>
> Having said that, I sold my F-4 because the sound bothered me. If it
> didn't, I would have kept it. It is the best all around bike I've owned,
> far better than my Honda VFR800, which I found boring. Every F-4 rider
who
> does real miles can be proud of his mount. They are fabulous at a
> reasonable price.
>
> But there is a sound and feel to Ducati's that is just the essence of
> motorcycling. I'm selling mine, but i know it won't be my last. When
I'm
> not immediately experiencing my fear of repair bills, then the lure of a
> good handling, wonderful sounding, great looking bike brings me back to
> Ducatis. I imagine this is something Ferrari owners do, as well. My
> Corvette will outrun, out corner, and outperform most of the Ferraris out
> there. But that doesn't stop me from listening to one going down the
road,
> and wishing that I was the driver. That's the "romance" of the
Italians.
>
> And Ducatis have it in spades.
>
> If that lure doesn't pull on your heart strings, count yourself lucky.
> You've saved yourself hours of preventative maintenance in the garage, or
> for all thumb wrenches like me, dollars at the shop. An R-1 or a 929 will
> do everything a Duc 996 will do, and maybe better. It just won't have the
> same panache.
>
Sabreman
rock solid, forgiving, comfortable...
and before you even ask <g>, I have had it on the track and it's one of the
things I value: predictable....
just my $.02
"YRo1011246" <yro10...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000527021628...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
> >I suggest you try to follow the discussion a little better. The 748's
> >racetrack
> >performance is only one factor to consider. Remember, the original
poster
> >said
> >nothing about racing either bike. He was looking for comments about all
> >aspects
> >of each bike. I am simply on the side of choosing a better all-around
> >motorcycle
> >that is much less expensive vs. a more aesthetic, race-oriented
motorcycle.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> How many people "love" there F-4? It's a wonderful machine! But look
at
> the '87 CBR600 because in 11 years, thats what an F-4 is going to be! The
'87
> Hurricane was a ground breaking shit kicking motorbike when it was
released.
> Who double takes when they see it now? Now what about an 851? Totally
> impractical and unreliable by even Ducati standards. Which one would you
want?
> The Ducati is about emotion. The narrow performance feeds into that.
The F-4
> is an appliance. It is about usefulness and painless sterility. You may
Michael
You must work where I work. I have a F4 and another co worker has a Ducati.
I ride it to work at least 1-2 times a week, I have seen his bike about 2x's
within a year. Yet his cubical is full of bike posters and he reads bike
magazines during lunch.
Oh and by the way, he drives an Audi.
"supatech" <supa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:EiuZ4.2085$l_1....@news2.atl...
> WELL SAID! Nuff Said!
>
>
> YRo1011246 <yro10...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000531004429...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> > >Your bias betrays you. If the Ducati is about emotion, then the F4 is
> about
> > >loving
> > >to just ride. While the Ducati owners are admiring their bikes in the
> > >garage, the
> > >F4 owners are out riding. Some Ducati owners commute to work in their
> Audis
> > >or
> > >Volvos, the F4 owners ride to work. Some Ducati owners have a second
> bike
> > >(BMWs,
> > >of course) for commuting or sport-touring, the F4 owners don't. The
> Ducati
> > >owners
> > >take their bikes in to the dealer every two months for repairs, the F4
> owners
> > >take
> > >theirs in every two years for scheduled maintenance.
> > >
> > >Mark
> > >
> > >
Eddy Hops
now, do I rebuild the kitchen or...
... oh no
John D.
Steve (cb)R
Eddy Hops <eddy...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000602094248...@ng-xc1.aol.com...
> The 996 is SOLD!! I'm free! FRREEE!!!!
>
>
Any chance of sending me your experiences of owning your 996.
TIA
espl...@my-deja.com
the market for a new superbike. I had it narrowed down to the Honda
CBR929RR, Ducati 748 and the Suzuki GSX-R 750.
I LOVED the style of the Ducati 748 but DAMN the thing is heavy (about
430 pounds), underpowered (about 98 HP at the crank and about 89 at the
rear wheel. At least that is what I had read from various sourced when
I did my extensive research)and too pricey for my blood (I have seen it
for MSRP $12,495.00 to $13,600.00). Of coures what you get when you buy
a Ducati is the history and stunning good looks of the body work and
you have to love the shotgun pipes! The price is what made me not want
the Ducati.
I next looked at the Honda CBR929RR. I really liked the riding position
on this bike, a little more upright than the GSX-R 750. You know, not
as agressive. The 150 HP at the crank was a huge plus. What turned me
away from it was the huge triangular holes in the fairing and the fact
that it didn't have the rear seat cap that the GSX-R has. I know, it
sounds silly but the I just didn't care for the looks of the bike as
much as the Suzuki. So sue me! :^)
Then came the GSX-R 750. I had a 1999 GSX-R 750 in blue and white.
Somebody decided they wanted it more than me and I no longer had a bike
anymore. I had it for a VERY short 4 months. :^(
I guess when I started my search I was already partial. The GSX-R has
141 HP at the crank and is about 370 pounds this year. That means it is
the same weight as most of the 600's out there with 150 cc's more.
GOTTA love that! It's about 30 pounds lighter than last year. It was a
dream when I sat on it in the dealership. Felt a little narrower and
definately lighter than last year. I have heard this is the premier
bike this year. It took me a while but I found THE LAST blue and white
GSX-R in Northern Virginia last weekend. I will get it in two weeks and
keep you all posted on what I think of it!
Matt
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dave Wright
running bikes, each one has it's own unique personality. I would not want to
ride the 748 in slow traffic, long distances (more than 200 miles per day or
300 in two days) or two up. With that in mind, it is usually my #1 choice for
riding. 748 is great, but VERY agressive riding position. Maybe better off
with s supersport if you want Italian?
Joe Marnell wrote:
> Ok...
>
> I own a 2000 Honda CBR F4 which I absolutely love. Great bike, very
> dependable and forgiving. I got a call from my dealer who told be that he
> finally has a Ducati 748 in yellow that he can get for me if I want it. I
> originally was going for the duck but no dealer around had any 748's in
> stock and it looked like I would have to wait until next year to get one
>
> Outside of the obvious, I would love to here opinions on the differences,
> good and bad, between the two bikes. And assuming I don't have the spare
> change around to keep the Honda and buy the Ducati (that would be cool
> though) should I make the leap, or be thankful for what I've got?
>
> Looking forward to helpful advice.
Gary Lee
with s supersport if you want Italian?>>
After recently trying out a '00 SS, I was quite impressed with its stability
and feel. The ride position is more agressive than the older models (which I
own and love), A new 900 punched to 944 with cans and a chip upgrade would
be quite a ride.
--
Gary
93 900SS
mailto:sav...@redconnect.net
Ducati Enthusiast Sport Motorcycle Org.
http://www.egroups.com/group/DESMO