Damn... electrical problems with my R1
Jamin Kortegard
worth of gas through it on Sunday. Everything seemed golden, but on Tuesday
morning I got a little surprise.
I was heading downtown (Seattle) for an early morning appointment and
decided the bike was the best bet to battle commuter traffic. Flip the key,
hit the starter... and the starter motor slowly turned a few times before
the battery was too weak to continue.
What the hell? Everything was fine since I finished the fixit job 5 days
prior. I'd had the battery on a Battery Tender, so I knew it was fully
charged when I put everything back together. And the bike had only been
sitting 2 days since I rode it last. Either I had a short somewhere and/or
my charging system had a problem.
Multimeter in hand, I tested the battery, fuses, charging voltage and stator
coil resistance. After a recharge and a rest, the battery was 12.8V (good),
fuses were fine, but charging voltage was a puny 12.6V at 5k rpm and dropped
to 12.3V at idle (tested across battery terminals). Minimum charging voltage
at 5k rpm is supposed to be 14V. Uh oh... trouble.
After talking with the folks at my friendly moto repair shop, they suggested
I check the leads from the generator to see if any of them were shorting to
ground. Yep. That explains why the battery wasn't getting charged. All the
generator voltage was being dumped straight to ground, instead of going to
the rectifier/regulator and then to the positive battery terminal. The whole
weekend I was running around on the bike, I was simply running off the
battery. Lucky I didn't go very far from home!
So today I ordered a universal rotor holding tool and a Yamaha factory
flywheel/rotor puller so I can disassemble the generator rotor and stator
assembly to see which parts are damaged. Hopefully it's just the stator
assembly and not the generator rotor too... that's a pricey item. I've never
taken these things apart before, so if anyone has advice, I'm all ears. I do
have the shop manual, and it doesn't look difficult.
Right when I thought I was back on the horse, this comes up. I won't be
riding for another week at least, maybe two. Grrr.
--
Jamin Kortegard
2002 YZF-R1 / 2003 WRX
"Hokey 600s and trackday usability are no match
for a good literbike at your side, kid."
- Michael
Andrew
"Jamin Kortegard" <no...@notmymail.com> wrote in message
news:f3c2acae9af8c1fc...@news.teranews.com...
can't you just ride it and put it on the charger, until you diagnose the
failed part?
--
Andrew
00 Speed Triple
00 Daytona
Saddlebag
>
>can't you just ride it and put it on the charger, until you diagnose the
>failed part?
>
He could until the battery died and left him stranded.
Jamin Kortegard
> can't you just ride it and put it on the charger, until you diagnose the
> failed part?
If I want to kill the battery or possibly get stranded, sure.
Jamin Kortegard
Oops.
Yeah, what he said.
Phil Scott
"Jamin Kortegard" <no...@notmymail.com> wrote in message
news:f3c2acae9af8c1fc...@news.teranews.com...
You are a very smart man Jamin... however have you checked the
rotor and stator to ground when disconnected at thier wiring
harness?. Have you checked their winding continuity. I dont
know but do these parts ground via normally functioning diodes
in the rectifier circuit? The shop should know what the
reads should be with these parts unplugged or a service manual
should have all that.
I suspect the problem is in a quick connect plug, corroded
connection not in the stator or rotor.
Phil Scott
Jamin Kortegard
> You are a very smart man Jamin... however have you checked the
> rotor and stator to ground when disconnected at thier wiring
> harness?. Have you checked their winding continuity. I dont
> know but do these parts ground via normally functioning diodes
> in the rectifier circuit? The shop should know what the
> reads should be with these parts unplugged or a service manual
> should have all that.
>
> I suspect the problem is in a quick connect plug, corroded
> connection not in the stator or rotor.
As far as I can see, there's only one fat quick-connect between the stator
coil windings and the rectifier/ regulator. I did check the resistance
across the various leads from the stator, and it was higher than specified.
It was from these same 3 leads (at the quick-connect plug) that I verified
that all leads from the stator are shorting to ground.
My next step is to disassemble the stator and rotor to check it a little
more closely. But according to what I've found so far and what the shop
manual tells me, it's a bad stator assembly. It could be from when I dumped
the bike at the track on the left side, which is where the generator is
located. Maybe something got jarred in the lowside crash, and with
everything spinning so fast in there one of the wires or connections went
kaput.
Maybe I'll get lucky and it'll be a loose connection that I can solder back
together. I dunno... we'll see when I pull it apart. I certainly will check
for continuity on the windings in an effort to pinpoint the cause of the
problem.
Saddlebag
>I verified
>that all leads from the stator are shorting to ground.
Do you happen to have a schematic of the system? From some of the posts on the
subject I've seen, there are some pretty scatterbrained designs floating around
out there.
It's possible that the rectified voltage entering the voltage regulator is
getting shorted in the VR. Can you pull the input to the VR and check the input
resistance?
The likelihood of the generator just shorting out is nil. The likelihood of all
phases of the generator shorting is nil/2497.
The likelihood that a VR dwelling in some nether region with insufficient heat
sinking on a hot day gives up the ghost is well...rather common.
Jamin Kortegard
> Do you happen to have a schematic of the system? From some of the posts on the
> subject I've seen, there are some pretty scatterbrained designs floating
> around out there.
>
Yes, I have the circuit diagram given in the shop manual.
> It's possible that the rectified voltage entering the voltage regulator is
> getting shorted in the VR. Can you pull the input to the VR and check the
> input resistance?
>
The rectifier and voltage regulator are one beast on this bike. A heat-sink
looking box (metal housing) bolted to the front of the battery box. Three
white wires in, directly from the generator; two wires out - black and red.
Pulling these connections isn't tough, but I wouldn't know how to test it.
When you say "check input resistance", do you mean check the pins on the
input side of the rectifier/voltage regulator? What should I expect from
that test?
> The likelihood of the generator just shorting out is nil. The likelihood of
> all phases of the generator shorting is nil/2497.
>
What if you smack a generator housing on the ground a few times at 50mph
when it's spinning at 10k rpm?
> The likelihood that a VR dwelling in some nether region with insufficient heat
> sinking on a hot day gives up the ghost is well...rather common.
>
Too much of a coincidence with my crash for me to think it was caused by
heat failure.
Phil Scott
"Jamin Kortegard" <no...@notmymail.com> wrote in message
snip
> > I suspect the problem is in a quick connect plug, corroded
> > connection not in the stator or rotor.
>
> As far as I can see, there's only one fat quick-connect
between the stator
> coil windings and the rectifier/ regulator. I did check the
resistance
> across the various leads from the stator, and it was higher
than specified.
a few percentage points higher can be normal or
instrument error... but over 30% or so could be a problem.
> It was from these same 3 leads (at the quick-connect plug)
that I verified
> that all leads from the stator are shorting to ground.
Kaybear would know for sure but it sounds bad to me...maybe
the diodes ground half of the current so your test shows
ground.
Phil Scott
Phil Scott
Glancing blows when you are at speed. Not like a dead drop
effect.
Im with Saddle...the odds are long on a stator
problem...and very high
on a VR or bad connection problem.
What does the manual say the stator should read to ground
when
disconnected? If it reads to ground and the manual says
it shouldnt
then its a bad stator.
Phil Scott
Demetrius XXIV and the Gladiatores
<no...@notmymail.com> wrote:
>So today I ordered a universal rotor holding tool and a Yamaha factory
>flywheel/rotor puller so I can disassemble the generator rotor and stator
>assembly to see which parts are damaged. Hopefully it's just the stator
>assembly and not the generator rotor too... that's a pricey item. I've never
>taken these things apart before, so if anyone has advice, I'm all ears. I do
>have the shop manual, and it doesn't look difficult.
Coil is $140, reg/rec $114 and the rotor is $265 as a frame of
reference BTW... Sounds like you need the coil so that's not too bad.
Saddlebag
>Pulling these connections isn't tough, but I wouldn't know how to test it.
If I read what you said correctly, you've found a place to measure the 3 phase
input to ground. Problem is that at this point it is connected on one side at
the generator and at the other to the input of the VRR. When you read the
resistance you are reading the parallel combo. So, if the VRR is shorted you're
going to read a low value. If the generator is shorted, you are going to read a
low value. Worst of all, if the generator neutral is tied to ground it will
ALWAYS look shorted.
As I said, without a schematic it would be hard to guess how they choose to
carry out the rec/reg scheme.
But to test the generator you could disconnect the VRR, set your voltmeter to
AC, turn the bike on and check to ensure that voltage is being produced from
each phase with respect to neutral. You may need to rev it abit.
If it looks like you're getting equivalent voltage out of each phase then
replace the VRR and buy me a beer when I get up your way.
Saddlebag
http://www.customdynamics.com/LED_battery_gauge.htm
Andrew
> on 5/27/04 4:00 PM, Andrew wrote:
>
> > can't you just ride it and put it on the charger, until you diagnose the
> > failed part?
>
> If I want to kill the battery or possibly get stranded, sure.
>
> --
I'd prolly charge it every night, and just ride it around during the day,
making sure not to use the brights, etc, until the battery went bad.
Meanwhile I'd figure out what to fix.
Jamin Kortegard
> What does the manual say the stator should read to ground when disconnected?
> If it reads to ground and the manual says it shouldnt then its a bad stator.
The manual doesn't say anything about the stator grounding or not, I got
that test suggested to me from my friendly local moto repair shop. The way
the manuals says you should test the stator is by testing the resistance
from pin #1 to pins #2 and #3 on the main lead from the stator assembly. The
specified range is 0.19-0.23 Ohms. My test results were consistently 0.3 to
0.4 Ohms, definitely higher than specified.
There was no test given for the rectifier and voltage regulator. The book
has a test sequence for the charging system, and if component along the way
checks out OK but the system is still not charging properly, then the book
says replace the rectifier/voltage regulator.
Jamin Kortegard
> I'd prolly charge it every night, and just ride it around during the day,
> making sure not to use the brights, etc, until the battery went bad.
> Meanwhile I'd figure out what to fix.
I won't do that. If I'm right and the stator needs replacing, doing this
will only kill my battery. And by "kill" I mean permanently dead, not "needs
a recharge". Having to buy a $70 battery in addition to the stator or
whatever other parts I need would only add insult to injury. Plus, it's not
like I absolutely NEED to ride for next week or two. I've been off the bike
for almost 9 months. Another couple of weeks to sort this problem out isn't
going to ruin me.
Jamin Kortegard
> If I read what you said correctly, you've found a place to measure the 3 phase
> input to ground. Problem is that at this point it is connected on one side at
> the generator and at the other to the input of the VRR. When you read the
> resistance you are reading the parallel combo. So, if the VRR is shorted
> you're going to read a low value. If the generator is shorted, you are going
> to read > a low value. Worst of all, if the generator neutral is tied to
> ground it will ALWAYS look shorted.
>
Not exactly correct. Where I've tested, the stator output has been
disconnected from the VRR input.
See the parts diagram or stator coil assembly (with plug lead) and generator
rotor here: http://tinyurl.com/3dq63
I'm testing the pins on the plug directly from the stator. This connection
plugs directly into the side of the VRR. It makes sense to me that these
pins shouldn't be shorting to ground, because if they are then how would any
voltage generated by the stator make it to the VRR without grounding out
first?
> As I said, without a schematic it would be hard to guess how they choose to
> carry out the rec/reg scheme.
> But to test the generator you could disconnect the VRR, set your voltmeter to
> AC, turn the bike on and check to ensure that voltage is being produced from
> each phase with respect to neutral. You may need to rev it abit.
>
So, clip one lead of my meter to pin 1, 2 or 3 of the stator plug and the
other meter lead to ground, checking for adequate charge voltage? Make sense
to me.
> If it looks like you're getting equivalent voltage out of each phase then
> replace the VRR and buy me a beer when I get up your way.
>
I was planning on buying you at least one beer anyway.
Phil Scott
> on 5/28/04 10:47 AM, Phil Scott wrote:
>
> > What does the manual say the stator should read to ground
when disconnected?
> > If it reads to ground and the manual says it shouldnt then
its a bad stator.
>
> The manual doesn't say anything about the stator grounding
or not, I got
> that test suggested to me from my friendly local moto repair
shop. The way
> the manuals says you should test the stator is by testing
the resistance
> from pin #1 to pins #2 and #3 on the main lead from the
stator assembly. The
> specified range is 0.19-0.23 Ohms. My test results were
consistently 0.3 to
> 0.4 Ohms, definitely higher than specified.
.4 ohms is well within the margin for error for field
checks... electrics in that regard are a little like light
bulbs.... they are OK or they are not.
YOu are in the hair split range on your meter..and the contact
resistance of your probes... the stator is most likely find.
Its probabably a loose connection externally or the VR as
Saddle has so wisely speculated.
Dropping the bike unless it bent the aluminum casing in onto
the stator would very rarely, one time in a few hundred or so
at least case a stator problem.... the resistance checks as
close as it does...its fine.
>
> There was no test given for the rectifier and voltage
regulator. The book
> has a test sequence for the charging system, and if
component along the way
> checks out OK but the system is still not charging properly,
then the book
> says replace the rectifier/voltage regulator.
thats a smart book. The VR is the most likely
problem...ahead of that most likely is a loose connection.
Phil Scott
Andrew
> on 5/29/04 10:07 AM, Andrew wrote:
>
> > I'd prolly charge it every night, and just ride it around during the
day,
> > making sure not to use the brights, etc, until the battery went bad.
> > Meanwhile I'd figure out what to fix.
>
> I won't do that. If I'm right and the stator needs replacing, doing this
> will only kill my battery. And by "kill" I mean permanently dead, not
"needs
> a recharge". Having to buy a $70 battery in addition to the stator or
> whatever other parts I need would only add insult to injury. Plus, it's
not
> like I absolutely NEED to ride for next week or two. I've been off the
bike
> for almost 9 months. Another couple of weeks to sort this problem out
isn't
> going to ruin me.
>
While this is all true, I assumed another $70.00 for a new battery
eventually in my scenario.
Man it was good to see you guys at Kelly's the other night!
Saddlebag
>It makes sense to me that these
>pins shouldn't be shorting to ground, because if they are then how would any
>voltage generated by the stator make it to the VRR without grounding out
>first?
The resistance across a coil of wire is very small. When magnetic flux cuts the
wire it induces an EMF across the coil. Hence, if the generator neutral is tied
to the bike ground each phase will appear shorted.
The best way I can think of to determine if the generator is OK is by checking
the output voltage while it is operating.
>So, clip one lead of my meter to pin 1, 2 or 3 of the stator plug and the
>other meter lead to ground, checking for adequate charge voltage?
If generator neutral does not come out on the connector you may just want to
check line to line since the bike's ground may be isolated from generator
neutral and be no reference at all.
Dave G
You may find this info helpful:
http://www.electrexusa.com/electrex_fault_finding.html
http://www.electrexusa.com/Images/PULLING_FLYWHEELS.pdf
The manual for my YZF600R says to check resistance between each pair of the
3 wires (unplugged). Resistance should be .36 to .44 ohms at 20C. No
continuity between any wire and ground. It sucks that your stator is behind
the flywheel. Mine (and the R6) is outside, bolted to the crankcase cover.
If you run the engine with the VRR unplugged. you can check voltage across
each pair of the 3 wires. This is the voltage that the VRR sees. I'm not
sure what the voltage between a wire and ground is supposed to be.
Dave
FizzsR1
Buy a real bike:-P
Chad
2003 R1
Silly rabbit, tricks are for squids.
Jamin Kortegard
> While this is all true, I assumed another $70.00 for a new battery
> eventually in my scenario.
> Man it was good to see you guys at Kelly's the other night!
Naw... $70 is at least 400 rds of target ammo. No way would I waste that on
a battery that as of right now is perfectly healthy.
Yep, Kelly's party was good. Nice house they got there. It sure was fun
hanging out with all the motorcycling peeps and talking about racing and
stuff.
Jamin Kortegard
> R1's suck, that's why you're having electrical probs.
>
> Buy a real bike:-P
>
Less trolling, more riding. ;)
Jamin Kortegard
Thanks for the links, Dave. I'll check those out in more detail real soon.
Jamin Kortegard
> If generator neutral does not come out on the connector you may just want to
> check line to line since the bike's ground may be isolated from generator
> neutral and be no reference at all.
So, check between any 2 of the 3 pins on the generator output? Any idea what
the voltage reading ought to be? The manual says I should be getting 14 Vdc
between the battery terminals at 5k rpm, though I don't know what that means
for an expected AC output directly from the generator.
Phil Scott
> on 5/29/04 2:56 PM, Saddlebag wrote:
>
> > If generator neutral does not come out on the connector
you may just want to
> > check line to line since the bike's ground may be isolated
from generator
> > neutral and be no reference at all.
>
> So, check between any 2 of the 3 pins on the generator
output? Any idea what
> the voltage reading ought to be? The manual says I should be
getting 14 Vdc
> between the battery terminals at 5k rpm, though I don't know
what that means
> for an expected AC output directly from the generator.
If you are getting the 12.5 vdc you mentioned at the
battery...then unplug the generator and check the generator
output..if its 14 or 15volts across the generator outputs, 3
combinations across three terminals... at 5k rpm its fine.(put
your meter on AC current for that check if the diodes are not
built into the stator..) .
the odds are about 20 to 1 however that its the VR or a
loose connection with the resistance in the stator windings
checking close enough to spec. (with those ohm readings you
do not have a shorted or an open winding so the windings are
probably fine a 99% chance they are fine at least).
Its pointing to the VR or diodes in the rectifier attached to
the VR..
Phil Scott
Phil Scott
> on 5/29/04 4:16 PM, Dave G wrote:
>
> > Jamin,
> >
> > You may find this info helpful:
> >
> > http://www.electrexusa.com/electrex_fault_finding.html
> >
> > http://www.electrexusa.com/Images/PULLING_FLYWHEELS.pdf
> >
> > The manual for my YZF600R says to check resistance between
each pair of the
> > 3 wires (unplugged). Resistance should be .36 to .44 ohms
at 20C. No
> > continuity between any wire and ground. It sucks that your
stator is behind
> > the flywheel. Mine (and the R6) is outside, bolted to the
crankcase cover.
> >
> > If you run the engine with the VRR unplugged. you can
check voltage across
> > each pair of the 3 wires. This is the voltage that the VRR
sees. I'm not
> > sure what the voltage between a wire and ground is
supposed to be.
> >
> Thanks for the links, Dave. I'll check those out in more
detail real soon.
no need to split hairs on the ohm readings... your meter and
your contact probes give a lot of error in those low
resistance ranges... its not like the widings are commonly
overly resistive etc...its that they break off entirely and
you get infinite resistance, or they short internally and you
get no resistance..
also zero your meter before you do the ohm check.
Phil Scott
Saddlebag
>Any idea what
>the voltage reading ought to be?
Typically, regulators want an input between 1 and 2 times the output voltage.
So I'd guesstimate your line to neutral would be in the 12 to 24 Vrms range.
The line to line voltage is root 3 times the line to neutral voltage or ~ 21 to
42 Vrms depending on engine speed.
The most important thing is that they are all the ~ the same. If one of the
phases is truely shorted they won't be.
Jamin Kortegard
Just tested the line to line voltage:
lines 1-2 = 45 Vac @ 3k rpm, 72 Vac @ 5k rpm
lines 1-3 = 60 Vac @ 3k rpm, 90 Vac @ 5k rpm
lines 2-3 = 60 Vac @ 3k rpm, 90 Vac @ 5k rpm
I tested each line combination twice, to make sure it wasn't tester error.
Lines 1-2 consistently output low voltage compared to the other two pairs.
Also, I looked at the circuit diagram. It showed no grounding directly from
the stator. All 3 white wires from the stator go straight into the VRR,
which then sends a red wire to battery pos (+) through the main fuse, and a
black wire to what looks like ground.
Looks like bad stator, eh?
Phil Scott
> on 5/30/04 5:22 AM, Saddlebag wrote:
>
> >> From: Jamin Kortegard
> >
> >> Any idea what
> >> the voltage reading ought to be?
> >
> > Typically, regulators want an input between 1 and 2 times
the output voltage.
> > So I'd guesstimate your line to neutral would be in the 12
to 24 Vrms range.
> > The line to line voltage is root 3 times the line to
neutral voltage or ~ 21
> > to 42 Vrms depending on engine speed.
> > The most important thing is that they are all the ~ the
same. If one of the
> > phases is truely shorted they won't be.
> >
>
> Just tested the line to line voltage:
>
> lines 1-2 = 45 Vac @ 3k rpm, 72 Vac @ 5k rpm
> lines 1-3 = 60 Vac @ 3k rpm, 90 Vac @ 5k rpm
> lines 2-3 = 60 Vac @ 3k rpm, 90 Vac @ 5k rpm
Saddles remarks were on the money... good test you did
there... Im not personally sure that the 45 vac anomally is
bad... notice its a direct whole function decline...it could
easily be deliberate for some reason...such as say for
ignition only when the lights are not on.
It is very very unusual to see a winding partically shorted
then producing in that manner.
all of those voltage would be enough to drive the diodes and
VR. Id say its the VR and or a diode at this point... Id put
the odds of a bad coil at less than 1 in a hundred.
>
> I tested each line combination twice, to make sure it wasn't
tester error.
> Lines 1-2 consistently output low voltage compared to the
other two pairs.
>
> Also, I looked at the circuit diagram. It showed no
grounding directly from
> the stator. All 3 white wires from the stator go straight
into the VRR,
The stator coils if its a delta configuration will have no
ground...if its a wye configuration..each coil will be
grounded at a common center tap.
Do they show the stator as a triangle shape? with coils on
each side? If so it probably is not grounded. The ground in
that that case would be at the battery only.
None the less there could be a ground.
The fact of your low volage read on one leg though being such
an even number and a whole fraction of the three phase
generator does not indictate a partial leak to ground.
A delta configuration is also commonly grounded in the middle
of one coil... called a tap...to get lower voltages... you may
be reading one of these taps to get the lower read.
> which then sends a red wire to battery pos (+) through the
main fuse, and a
> black wire to what looks like ground.
>
> Looks like bad stator, eh?
Id say its looking more and more like a bad VR or loose
wire. Id say the odds of a bad stator are 1% ....and bad VR
at 70% ....and loose wire or bad connection at 30% or more.
Phil Scott
Saddlebag
>Just tested the line to line voltage:
>
>lines 1-2 = 45 Vac @ 3k rpm, 72 Vac @ 5k rpm
>lines 1-3 = 60 Vac @ 3k rpm, 90 Vac @ 5k rpm
>lines 2-3 = 60 Vac @ 3k rpm, 90 Vac @ 5k rpm
The plot thickens...
Well, if it's a wye connected output this wouldn't make any sense since phase 1
appears OK in test 2 and phase 2 appears OK in test 3, but in test 1 where they
are tied in series there appears to be something dragging down the voltage.
If it's delta connected then there is no neutral to bring out and the line to
line voltage IS the phase voltage.
It is possible that the 1-2 coil has shorted over the last 1/3 of itself
leaving the first 2/3 still producing voltage.
It doesn't seem that there is a marginal connection in one of the connectors,
otherwise you would expect two phases to read low and one high since as before
you'd be testing the same connection in two of the tests.
Next, I'd take the battery out of the circuit and see if the VRR is producing
voltage at all. You'd think that it should still be producing even if the
voltage is too low to recharge the battery. If it is producing a low voltage I
guess I'd spring for the stator. If it isn't producing I'd probably get a new
VRR, test it (unloaded) to see if it puts out proper voltage. The unbalanced
voltage may have caused an overcurrent condition within the VRR that eventually
baked some component to extintion.
You realize that all electrical components are made from smoke and once it gets
released they will no longer work properly.
>Looks like bad stator, eh?
Perhaps. Damn Jap bikes!
Saddlebag
>.it could
>easily be deliberate for some reason...such as say for
>ignition only when the lights are not on.
All three phases go directly to the VRR where they are rectified for input to
the regulator and the only wires coming out of the VRR is the 12Vdc output.
It really doesn't make that the phase voltages are unbalanced.
>It is very very unusual to see a winding partically shorted
>then producing in that manner.
To fail that way would be odd, but if its was built fucked up and always worked
that way until it finally cooked some part in the VRR then it seems more
conceivable.
> Id say its the VR and or a diode at this point... Id put
>the odds of a bad coil at less than 1 in a hundred.
I think it could be both.
Phil Scott
"Saddlebag" <sadd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040530181342...@mb-m15.aol.com...
> >From: "Phil Scott"
>
> >.it could
> >easily be deliberate for some reason...such as say for
> >ignition only when the lights are not on.
>
> All three phases go directly to the VRR where they are
rectified for input to
> the regulator and the only wires coming out of the VRR is
the 12Vdc output.
> It really doesn't make that the phase voltages are
unbalanced.
>
> >It is very very unusual to see a winding partically shorted
> >then producing in that manner.
>
> To fail that way would be odd, but if its was built fucked
up and always worked
> that way until it finally cooked some part in the VRR then
it seems more
> conceivable.
Pole and building transformers for commercial applications
are either wye or delta or a combination... all of these
combinations commonly use center taps depending on the needs
of the building.. I was speculating that they may have
used a center tap on the bikes stator coils... it seems very
odd to me that the low voltage leg was such a clean multiple.
No telling why they did it if all the power goes though the
rectifier battery... but it looks deliberate to me.
You yourself know that it would be a bit unusual for such a
failure to cause the battery not to charge since there was
ample voltage available. Im still betting on the VR.
>
> > Id say its the VR and or a diode at this point... Id put
> >the odds of a bad coil at less than 1 in a hundred.
>
> I think it could be both.
You are thinking maybe bad stator coils took out the VR?
No one has consulted KBear on this yet....so we dont realy
know for sure. :)
I forgot..did Jamin say he got a ground read from one of the
stator leads to ground? That would happen if one of the
stator coils were tapped to ground or grounded in the
middle... then you would get the reads he got... good voltage
across two coils, partial voltage across one coil...and a
short reading to ground from any lead.
So in that case Jamin might well be right about the stator.
Phil Scot
>
>
Phil Scott
Yes...we had that with thermostats a lot... a real
bright greenish yellow/ blue smoke that rose in a tiny
mushroom cloud when released.
>
> >Looks like bad stator, eh?
So you think the stator cooked the VR also or he would still
be getting a charge with two phases of the stator still
producing full blast and one half blast.
Phil Scott
>
> Perhaps. Damn Jap bikes!
Saddlebag
> Pole and building transformers for commercial applications
>are either wye or delta or a combination...
Transformers are often center tapped. Never seen anyone do it to a generator
winding though.
>Im still betting on the VR.
I too think it could be cooked, but the bum stator may be the cause.
>I forgot..did Jamin say he got a ground read from one of the
>stator leads to ground?
Good point. His initial finding was the the resistance to ground of each of the
phase leads was low. This is normal as the only thing there is the resistance
of the coil of wire.
But this indicates that:
a. It is wye connected
b. Generator neutral is tied to ground.
This makes the diagnosis more troubling since when he reads across coils 1 and
3 he sees 90 V. When he reads across 2 and 3 same. But when he reads across 1
and 2 he sees only 72 V. So coil 1 works when paired with 3 and coil 2 works
when paired with 3, but either 1 or 2 doesn't work when paired together. What
the hell kind of sense does that make?
Jamin, what were your actual resistance readings across each phase to ground?
Saddlebag
>So you think the stator cooked the VR also or he would still
>be getting a charge with two phases of the stator still
>producing full blast and one half blast.
Power is V*I. If V goes low, I has to compensate. Some electronics give up
their smoke if required to provide a path for excessive I.
Phil Scott
Thats true in motors at least..as the voltage drops, the rotor
slows, the impedance imparted by the rotor drops and current
goes up due to lack of impedance...toasting the winding. I
am a line voltage dood to some extent but not an electronics
guru. I guess there are electronics with impedance issues in
some circuits that would cook at low voltage.
On the stator winding issue...if its wye configured with a
center tap to the frame. that would create an ac ground loop
into the machine that has a DC battery ground....that would be
one screwed up set of electronics..so my suggestion that it
might be a wye would be ill founded to say the least. So
its probably a delta configuration at the stator..no?
If its a delta, and my speculation was that it was center
tapped on one winding for some reason that would not be a
grounded tap. So with that speculation... Jamin should get no
continuity reading to ground at all... probably not even a
high resistance read to ground if the stator is good....any
read to ground would indicate a bad winding.
Phil Scott
Jamin Kortegard
> Jamin, what were your actual resistance readings across each phase to ground?
I didn't actually test resistance to ground. My meter has a continuity check
setting, where it displays "open" on the meter, then when you touch the
leads together, or test a closed circuit it beeps and displays "shrt". This
is what it did for each of the three leads from the stator.
I could easily check this tomorrow, though.
Jamin Kortegard
> on 5/30/04 6:14 PM, Saddlebag wrote:
>
>> Jamin, what were your actual resistance readings across each phase to ground?
>
> I didn't actually test resistance to ground. My meter has a continuity check
> setting, where it displays "open" on the meter, then when you touch the
> leads together, or test a closed circuit it beeps and displays "shrt". This
> is what it did for each of the three leads from the stator.
>
> I could easily check this tomorrow, though.
0.3 ‡
Saddlebag
>0.3 ‡
ohms each phase to battery ground?
Jamin Kortegard
>> From: Jamin Kortegard
>
>> 0.3 Ohms
>
> ohms each phase to battery ground?
Yes. The battery wasn't hooked up to the bike at the time, but that
shouldn't matter for a resistance test.
Phil Scott
> on 5/31/04 4:09 PM, Saddlebag wrote:
>
> >> From: Jamin Kortegard
> >
> >> 0.3 Ohms
> >
> > ohms each phase to battery ground?
>
> Yes. The battery wasn't hooked up to the bike at the time,
but that
> shouldn't matter for a resistance test.
.3 ohms is almost a dead short to ground. The stator, unless
it has diodes built into it, should not be grounded..but .3
says one of the windings is virtually grounded. So it is
starting to look like a bad stator. The manual though should
have something on this.
.that .3 is probably from the terminal you are testing, though
the winding (.3) to the shorted section. That would have
also allowed current from the rest of the coils to leak to
ground, a ground common to your **DC VR and battery..it may
have taken out the VC too.
Phil Scott
Saddlebag
>Yes. The battery wasn't hooked up to the bike at the time, but that
>shouldn't matter for a resistance test.
So all coils have the same resistance. That indicates they are all wound the
same, but are outputing different voltages. Very weird. Did you happen to get
line to line resistances?
I don't suppose you have access to an oscope?
Are you sure that the only wires coming out of that stator go directly into the
VRR and that you had it completely out of the circuit when you took the voltage
measurements?
Saddlebag
>.3 ohms is almost a dead short to ground. The stator, unless
>it has diodes built into it, should not be grounded.
Yes it would if it is wye connected and gen neutral is tied to DC ground. Not
at all atypical. The fact that they all read the same yet produce different
voltages is odd however.
Jamin, are you testing this thing on top a mountain? Maybe you're getting some
arching due to the rarified atmosphere...I'm kidding, but the problem may only
manifest itself whil producing a high enough voltage that it is arching over.
Doing a resistance check wouldn't cause this to happen so all may look fine
while doing them.
Does the stator have a burnt smell? Burnt HML coating on the generator leads
will leave an indelible mark upon your nostrils.
Phil Scott
> >From: "Phil Scott"
>
> >.3 ohms is almost a dead short to ground. The stator,
unless
> >it has diodes built into it, should not be grounded.
>
> Yes it would if it is wye connected and gen neutral is tied
to DC ground. Not
> at all atypical.
I dont know bike practice on this at all. It seems crazy
though to connect an AC ground and DC ground to a common
frame? also of different voltages.
> The fact that they all read the same yet produce different
> voltages is odd however.
> Jamin, are you testing this thing on top a mountain? Maybe
you're getting some
> arching due to the rarified atmosphere...I'm kidding, but
the problem may only
> manifest itself whil producing a high enough voltage that it
is arching over.
> Doing a resistance check wouldn't cause this to happen so
all may look fine
> while doing them.
> Does the stator have a burnt smell? Burnt HML coating on the
generator leads
> will leave an indelible mark upon your nostrils.
He could also do a megohm check on the windings. the old
hand cranked ones cost a bundle...but the new electronic
megohm meters are available under 50 dollars or so... you dont
get the infinite analog read you do with the old ones or the
ultra high potential across the windings
Phil Scott
>
Jamin Kortegard
>> From: Jamin Kortegard
>
>> Yes. The battery wasn't hooked up to the bike at the time, but that
>> shouldn't matter for a resistance test.
>
> So all coils have the same resistance. That indicates they are all wound the
> same, but are outputing different voltages. Very weird. Did you happen to get
> line to line resistances?
>
From one of the three stator lines to another? Yes, that was part of the
service manual's charging system tests. The specified resistance is .19 to
.24 Ohms. Mine was around .3 or .4 Ohms for all three combinations (1-2,
1-3, 2-3).
> I don't suppose you have access to an oscope?
>
Nope.
> Are you sure that the only wires coming out of that stator go directly into
> the VRR
>
Yes, reasonably sure. I haven't pulled the stator yet, though, so I guess
it's possible (though seems unlikely) the Yamaha engineers snuck another
wire in there somewhere and didn't document it anywhere. From what I can
see, though, the only wires from the stator are the three that plug directly
into the VRR, exactly as the service manual shows.
> and that you had it completely out of the circuit when you took the
> voltage measurements?
>
Yes. The VRR is sitting on my workbench, unplugged from everything. I tested
the stator output wires at the plug, which would normally plug into the VRR.
Saddlebag
>Did you happen to get
>> line to line resistances?
>>
>From one of the three stator lines to another?
Line to line is the common jargon for phase to phase and line to neutral for
phase to neutral, sorry.
>Mine was around .3 or .4 Ohms for all three combinations (1-2,
>1-3, 2-3).
Cheap meter?
Was the 1-2 the 0.3 and the 2-3 and 1-3 0.4?
>Yes, reasonably sure. I haven't pulled the stator yet, though, so I guess
>it's possible (though seems unlikely) the Yamaha engineers snuck another
>wire in there somewhere
Unlikely, but it would suck to have to buy a stator only to find out the one
you have is OK.
Maybe you could get a cheap one through one of the salvage yards advertised in
the back of the bike mags. Hell, might as well pick up a VRR while your at it.
Jamin Kortegard
On 6/1/04 12:09 AM, "Saddlebag" wrote:
> Cheap meter?
>
I don't think so. It's not a $400 Fluke meter, but a $50 RadioShack special.
Digital, auto-ranging, plus several features I've never even used.
> Was the 1-2 the 0.3 and the 2-3 and 1-3 0.4?
>
I don't recall a noticeable difference between the 3 pairs of lines. It
seemed like all of them were on the fence between 0.3 and 0.4 Ohms.
> Unlikely, but it would suck to have to buy a stator only to find out the one
> you have is OK.
>
No kidding. There was a troubleshooting PDF link posted here a day or two
ago. I'm going to print that out at work and step through it to see if maybe
a clear culprit is revealed. I'll probably also call my friendly local
motorcycle repair shop again and talk through it with them to see if any new
ideas bubble to the surface.
> Maybe you could get a cheap one through one of the salvage yards advertised in
> the back of the bike mags. Hell, might as well pick up a VRR while your at it.
>
I have a source for decently priced new parts, so as soon as I can zero in
on the problem piece(s) I'll be making another order.
mfell211...@yahoo.com
really soon like.:-) I thought Honda invented the burnt Stator.
Looks like Yamaha is infinging and Honda's patent.:-) hey I gotr the
fix Jamin. Buy a Buell. There you have it problem solved.:-)
Regards
Mike
Jamin Kortegard
> Jamin, You better fix this soon or I will be bashing this Yamahaha
> really soon like.:-) I thought Honda invented the burnt Stator.
> Looks like Yamaha is infinging and Honda's patent.:-) hey I gotr the
> fix Jamin. Buy a Buell. There you have it problem solved.:-)
Mike, Mike, Mike... <sigh>
I agree that if I'd had a Buell instead I never would have had this stator
problem. I wouldn't have broken my ankle either, because both problems
resulted from my track-day crash in September, and everyone knows that
Buells don't go to the track (not counting the parking lot "tracks" that
Troy speaks so fondly of). Or if they do, they're quickly removed from the
track when they cough up their oil filters plus few quarts of 10W40 on the
track surface.
So, you're right. If I'd had a Buell, these problems would have been
entirely avoided. Jeez, come to think of it, a Buell could solve a few of my
motorcycle "hassles":
No more speeding tickets.
No need to buy 3-4 sets of tires every year.
Reduced gas consumption ('cuz the Buell's up on blocks).
Where's that dealership... I'm going shopping.
;)
Inlaw Biker
> On 6/1/04 4:29 PM, "mfell2112*nospam*@yahoo.com" wrote:
>
>> Jamin, You better fix this soon or I will be bashing this Yamahaha
>> really soon like.:-) I thought Honda invented the burnt Stator.
>> Looks like Yamaha is infinging and Honda's patent.:-) hey I gotr the
>> fix Jamin. Buy a Buell. There you have it problem solved.:-)
>
> Mike, Mike, Mike... <sigh>
>
> I agree that if I'd had a Buell instead I never would have had this
> stator problem. I wouldn't have broken my ankle either, because both
> problems resulted from my track-day crash in September, and everyone
> knows that Buells don't go to the track (not counting the parking lot
> "tracks" that Troy speaks so fondly of). Or if they do, they're
> quickly removed from the track when they cough up their oil filters
> plus few quarts of 10W40 on the track surface.
>
> So, you're right. If I'd had a Buell, these problems would have been
> entirely avoided. Jeez, come to think of it, a Buell could solve a
> few of my motorcycle "hassles":
>
> No more speeding tickets.
> No need to buy 3-4 sets of tires every year.
> Reduced gas consumption ('cuz the Buell's up on blocks).
>
> Where's that dealership... I'm going shopping.
>
> ;)
Hey, if you test ride a Buell they'll give you a free Buell T-shirt or
duffel bag. The only problem is the Buell logo is on there.
--
Greg Sumner
Seattle WA
'03 CBR 600RR
Saddlebag
>Hey, if you test ride a Buell they'll give you a free Buell T-shirt or
>duffel bag. The only problem is the Buell logo is on there.
Nixon has some clever ways of removing such things.
mike
he made a couple minutes of tape disappear :)
Saddlebag
>> Nixon has some clever ways of removing such things.
>
>he made a couple minutes of tape disappear :)
>
Bob Nixon that is...
Demetrius XXIV and the Gladiatores
Bob Nixon was Deepthroat?!
mfell211...@yahoo.com
<no...@notmymail.com> wrote:
>On 6/1/04 4:29 PM, "mfell2112*nospam*@yahoo.com" wrote:
>
>> Jamin, You better fix this soon or I will be bashing this Yamahaha
>> really soon like.:-) I thought Honda invented the burnt Stator.
>> Looks like Yamaha is infinging and Honda's patent.:-) hey I gotr the
>> fix Jamin. Buy a Buell. There you have it problem solved.:-)
>
>Mike, Mike, Mike... <sigh>
>
>I agree that if I'd had a Buell instead I never would have had this stator
>problem. I wouldn't have broken my ankle either, because both problems
>resulted from my track-day crash in September, and everyone knows that
>Buells don't go to the track
Ask Troy if Buells don't go to the track. Troy was silly enough to go
over to Badweather bikers and say this exact thing. He was humbled.
Don't make me post a link to the thread.:-)
> (not counting the parking lot "tracks" that
I can tell you one thing if you think Battle trax is easy then I
suggest you bring your bike out and compete. I was cone dodging at the
MSF class. It is very good practice and seeing you are recouping from
the busted ankle I think a little cone dodging would do you some
good.:-)
>Troy speaks so fondly of). Or if they do, they're quickly removed from the
>track when they cough up their oil filters plus few quarts of 10W40 on the
>track surface.
>
>So, you're right. If I'd had a Buell, these problems would have been
>entirely avoided. Jeez, come to think of it, a Buell could solve a few of my
>motorcycle "hassles":
Well enjoy trouble shooting my bike runs.:-)
>
>No more speeding tickets.
>No need to buy 3-4 sets of tires every year.
>Reduced gas consumption ('cuz the Buell's up on blocks).
Hey my bike runs fine it is yours on the blocks.:-)
>
>Where's that dealership... I'm going shopping.
You should. Take one for a test ride. BTW,what's it like to have a
bike only a couple of years old not start?:-)
Regards
Mike
Saddlebag
>Bob Nixon was Deepthroat?!
No, but I heard he once stunt doubled for Ron Jeremy.
Jamin Kortegard
> Ask Troy if Buells don't go to the track. Troy was silly enough to go
> over to Badweather bikers and say this exact thing. He was humbled.
> Don't make me post a link to the thread.:-)
>
Let's see, I think AMA Formula Xtreme is the only place where Buells
actually race against other types of bikes. In this case it's Japanese 600s
and the occasional Ducati 749. In the race I watched last night, out of a
field of around 25 bikes at Pikes Peak Raceway in Colorado, the 3 Buells on
the grid placed 9th, almost last and dead last. I guess the good news is
that none of them exploded, and one of them managed to place in the top 10.
These were XB9R Firebolts, going up against Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki
600s and a Ducati 749. Of course, the Ducati was ridden by Doug Chandler. He
placed 3rd, behind Jake Zemke and Miguel Duhamel, both on CBR600RRs.
By the way, when I say "race" I mean compete in a contest of outright speed.
I don't mean cone dodging in a parking lot. I've done my share of cone
dodging, having taken the MSF beginning class once and the advanced class 2
or 3 times with different bikes, and I do just fine. I wouldn't call it
"easy", but I also wouldn't call it "racing".
> You should. Take one for a test ride. BTW,what's it like to have a
> bike only a couple of years old not start?:-)
>
It does start, and it runs great, it just doesn't charge the battery like it
should, which is kind of a bummer. It's only a couple years old, that's
true. Actually about 22 months, 9 of which it's been up on stands in the
garage while I've been healing my broken ankle. During the previous 13
months I'd put almost 14k miles on it, about 800 of those at race tracks.
How many miles on your Buell again? ;) Anyway, it was during a couple of
those track days that I crashed it. I guess in the 2nd crash I did something
to the stator causing it to output low voltage to the RR. Them's the breaks.
mfell211...@yahoo.com
<no...@notmymail.com> wrote:
>On 6/3/04 5:35 PM, "mfell2112*nospam*@yahoo.com" wrote:
>
>> Ask Troy if Buells don't go to the track. Troy was silly enough to go
>> over to Badweather bikers and say this exact thing. He was humbled.
>> Don't make me post a link to the thread.:-)
>>
>Let's see, I think AMA Formula Xtreme is the only place where Buells
>actually race against other types of bikes. In this case it's Japanese 600s
>and the occasional Ducati 749. In the race I watched last night, out of a
>field of around 25 bikes at Pikes Peak Raceway in Colorado, the 3 Buells on
>the grid placed 9th, almost last and dead last. I guess the good news is
>that none of them exploded,
Exactly. That is good news. They haven't exploded on the street
either. They are holding up very well. The new 12s would be a hoot to
ride on the street. I am gonna take one for a test ride really soon.
>and one of them managed to place in the top 10.
>These were XB9R Firebolts, going up against Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki
>600s and a Ducati 749. Of course, the Ducati was ridden by Doug Chandler. He
>placed 3rd, behind Jake Zemke and Miguel Duhamel, both on CBR600RRs.
You think Duhamel would have placed better then ninth on the Buell?
Honda has the best riders and they win. Sometimes you got to give the
rider some credit why this is as well.
>
>By the way, when I say "race" I mean compete in a contest of outright speed.
>I don't mean cone dodging in a parking lot.
I don't think bike matters in Battle trax. The most skillful rider
will win.
> I've done my share of cone
>dodging, having taken the MSF beginning class once and the advanced class 2
>or 3 times with different bikes, and I do just fine. I wouldn't call it
>"easy", but I also wouldn't call it "racing".
Well it is. Although you are racing against the clock. I mean we have
Marathons and sprints for runners. The Spinters are way faster but,
the marathon is still racing.Moto cross racing you would be lucky to
hit 60 mph.
>
>> You should. Take one for a test ride. BTW,what's it like to have a
>> bike only a couple of years old not start?:-)
>>
>It does start, and it runs great, it just doesn't charge the battery like it
>should, which is kind of a bummer. It's only a couple years old, that's
>true. Actually about 22 months, 9 of which it's been up on stands in the
>garage while I've been healing my broken ankle. During the previous 13
>months I'd put almost 14k miles on it, about 800 of those at race tracks.
>How many miles on your Buell again? ;)
Over 12,000 and ZERO problems.:-)
>Anyway, it was during a couple of
>those track days that I crashed it. I guess in the 2nd crash I did something
>to the stator causing it to output low voltage to the RR. Them's the breaks.
Well good luck on getting it fixed. Where is the stator located?
Hopefully it is not in the motor like those old Hondas.
Regards
Mike
Bruce Hartweg
>
>>and one of them managed to place in the top 10.
>>These were XB9R Firebolts, going up against Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki
>>600s and a Ducati 749. Of course, the Ducati was ridden by Doug Chandler. He
>>placed 3rd, behind Jake Zemke and Miguel Duhamel, both on CBR600RRs.
>
>
> You think Duhamel would have placed better then ninth on the Buell?
> Honda has the best riders and they win. Sometimes you got to give the
> rider some credit why this is as well.
>
Riders definitely make a difference, and he might have done better than
9th, but he wouldn't be anywhere near the leaders because the bike is
simply outclassed by the others.
>>By the way, when I say "race" I mean compete in a contest of outright speed.
>>I don't mean cone dodging in a parking lot.
>
>
> I don't think bike matters in Battle trax. The most skillful rider
> will win.
>
maybe true, but what kind of skill? and
>
>>I've done my share of cone
>>dodging, having taken the MSF beginning class once and the advanced class 2
>>or 3 times with different bikes, and I do just fine. I wouldn't call it
>>"easy", but I also wouldn't call it "racing".
>
>
> Well it is. Although you are racing against the clock. I mean we have
> Marathons and sprints for runners. The Spinters are way faster but,
> the marathon is still racing.Moto cross racing you would be lucky to
> hit 60 mph.
>
but in all those cases the speed from one event to another may be different,
but within the compitition it is whoever does it the fastest.
The fastest sprinter wins the sprint, the fastest marathoner wins the marathon,
the faster motocrosser wins that event too.
Tell me something - does the fastest guy thru the parking lot win? Nope,
therfore it is NOT a race.
actually, by the rules of that game (it *is* a game, not a race) someone
who actually sucks can win, if he at least sucks consistently.
I'm not trying to belittle the battlerax stuff - it can probably be fun,
and it can at least improve low speed skills. But don't call it racing.
and since one of last years champs was on a frickin' Valkerie I wouldn't
hold it up as a venue to prove what a capable race bike the Buell is ;)
Bruce
mfell211...@yahoo.com
I was referring to Battletrax and indeed the fastest guy wins. Maybe
it is not a race like Trials riding as an example. Both take skill
and both are slow.
>
>actually, by the rules of that game (it *is* a game, not a race) someone
>who actually sucks can win, if he at least sucks consistently.
I don't get what you are saying here.
>
>I'm not trying to belittle the battlerax stuff - it can probably be fun,
>and it can at least improve low speed skills. But don't call it racing.
>and since one of last years champs was on a frickin' Valkerie I wouldn't
>hold it up as a venue to prove what a capable race bike the Buell is ;)
I never said anything about Buells I was saying that the riders skill
level is what it is all about. You can have an R1 running Battle trax
but, if the guy can't ride it he is not winning. There are no long
straights to make up for lost time and lack of skill in the turns. I
look at Battle trax as what trials riding is to Motocross. I respect
the skill that a good trials rider has although he is going really
slow. I figure if you sharpen up your low speed skill it will only
make you a better rider at higher speeds. As a drummer I practice slow
to fine tune my technique. I play slow,smooth and even. Smooth and
even is very important.To see all the nuances in my playing technique
and analyze it. It helps when I play faster and makes me a better
drummer. Why is it that Sport bikers look down their noses at events
like Battletrax and such that take a great deal of skill. My buddy
handed several rice boys their heads last year at Battle trax on his
heavy Buell with hard bags. I got news for you at high speeds my Buddy
would be handing those same guys their heads as well. Why? because He
can ride. I know most of us MXers never looked down at the Trials
riders even though those guys rarely cracked 20mph.
Regards
Mike
Bruce Hartweg
>>
>>Tell me something - does the fastest guy thru the parking lot win? Nope,
>>therfore it is NOT a race.
>
>
> I was referring to Battletrax and indeed the fastest guy wins. Maybe
> it is not a race like Trials riding as an example. Both take skill
> and both are slow.
then explain this:
http://www.battletrax.com/Results_Daytona03.html
the fastest guy was 5th place & the regional champion
had the slowest time of the posted results?
http://www.battletrax.com/Results_Mesa03.html
fastest guy was 3rd place
http://www.battletrax.com/Results_Camarillo03.html
this one the winner was the fastest, but that's not *why* he won.
(and the 2nd fastest was 9th place)
http://www.battletrax.com/Results_Gettysburg03.html
fastest guy - 3rd place
http://www.battletrax.com/Results_Detroit03.html
had a tie for first even though were over 6 seconds difference
Now do you understand?
I never said it didn't take skill, I never said it wasn't a competition,
I never said anything about the poeple who do it, I was not looking down
on or disparaging it. I was just pointing out that IT IS NOT A RACE.
>
>>actually, by the rules of that game (it *is* a game, not a race) someone
>>who actually sucks can win, if he at least sucks consistently.
>
>
> I don't get what you are saying here.
>
I'll try & write more slowly ;)
when you were a kid with your friends and said "let's race to the corner
and back" did you all run & see who got back first? or did you all do it
twice, some going fast, some slow, & some in between and then whoever was
closest to doing it in the same time on both trips win?
>>I'm not trying to belittle the battlerax stuff - it can probably be fun,
>>and it can at least improve low speed skills. But don't call it racing.
>>and since one of last years champs was on a frickin' Valkerie I wouldn't
>>hold it up as a venue to prove what a capable race bike the Buell is ;)
>
>
> I never said anything about Buells I was saying that the riders skill
> level is what it is all about. You can have an R1 running Battle trax
> but, if the guy can't ride it he is not winning. There are no long
> straights to make up for lost time and lack of skill in the turns. I
> look at Battle trax as what trials riding is to Motocross. I respect
> the skill that a good trials rider has although he is going really
> slow. I figure if you sharpen up your low speed skill it will only
> make you a better rider at higher speeds. As a drummer I practice slow
> to fine tune my technique. I play slow,smooth and even. Smooth and
> even is very important.To see all the nuances in my playing technique
> and analyze it. It helps when I play faster and makes me a better
> drummer. Why is it that Sport bikers look down their noses at events
> like Battletrax and such that take a great deal of skill. My buddy
> handed several rice boys their heads last year at Battle trax on his
> heavy Buell with hard bags. I got news for you at high speeds my Buddy
> would be handing those same guys their heads as well. Why? because He
> can ride. I know most of us MXers never looked down at the Trials
> riders even though those guys rarely cracked 20mph.
>
>
I agree there are probably good skills being learned/used, but not all
of them are directly applicable to road racing.
Bruce
PS - read carefully before you reply. I never once said anything bad
about Battletrax, I am merely pointing out it is not a race.