Royal Tornament
David Walker
future shows. I have heard it is because we cannot afford the manpower. If
we are that weak that 500 men/wommen makes that much of a difference then
what are we doing in the UN or even in Kosovo. How can we 'Defend british
interests'. If you have any other views please add to the thread. The
Queen won't attend the show because she is unhappy about the decission and
won't support it as its being cancelled. I am thinking about writing a
letter to PM and the Defence but it won't do any difference. Anybody who
has seen the show must have left with a strong feeling of patriosm, how can
that be bad. All the people in the show would be paid anyway and sponsers
pay for the rest!
Thankyou
Jimmy Poole
David Walker wrote in message <379b9...@interalpha.net>...
>I am just writing to find out what peoples vies are on the cancellations of
>future shows. I have heard it is because we cannot afford the manpower.
If
<snip snip snip>
I think that we could well do without the RT... It is a waste of men and
resources, it's not just a case of the 500 men who actually appear in the
show, it is all the behind the scenes work that goes into it. We haven't
got enough manpower to cover our existing commitments world-wide without
another yet public relations exercise.
People do not want to join the military today, the majority of people
have found other forms of entertainment than watching 1/2 a platoon of Royal
Marines manoeuvre a gun carriage over some polystyrene bricks.
Young men and women of today have nothing to relate to with the
military, they have been brought up on a diet of anti-establishmentarianism
and anti-patriotism they see the military as an archaic organisation with no
bearing on modern day working practices or the long term care of it's
employees (take Gulf war syndrome for example, or the Heath & safety at work
act 1974, which is brought into force only when it suits the hierarchy.)
As for the participants of the RT.., I would go as far to say that
60/70% of those taking part currently have no desire to be there and would
rather be fighting for truth,justice & the American way (sorry, I meant the
United Nations peacekeeping force!!!) in Kosovo, Bosnia or sunning
themselves on a beach in southern Italy (as do the RAF!!!) than ponce about
in an arena, and I am sure that they would rather be paid for doing what
they are employed to do.
And as for the Queen not showing up, well, thats no great loss is it.
It's not the Queen we do things for, it is the Government of the day's
policies we are defending, not the realm. God save the Queen (because
nobody else will!)
A thoroughly pissed off and embittered serviceman (who
longs for civvystreet with a vengeance!)
Andy Jensen
opinion. Many of the pers who participate in RT are very proud to do so and
some have had to undergo rigorous selection and competition to be there.
Yes, there will be some bods on the fatigues etc who have been jiffed, but I
would rather be doing that than laying under a landrover brushing the
springs in my hanger again, and again, and again, and again.... You know
what they say, a change is as good as a rest.
One of the major problems we have in the services at the moment is a
retention and recruiting problem. The recruiting side is largely down to
the poor image that the services have as a career nowadays. Why is this?
Because all the public sees is the bad press the media is so happy to dole
out when we are not on operations. If this is not balanced by a better
image, such as generated by things like RT, Ed Games, Trooping Colour etc
etc then the problem will get worse. Even the little things like not
permitting servicemen wear uniform outside barracks for the last 15 years or
so decreases profile and cuts recruiting figures.
I hope someone saves RT. It is a mark of the continuous drive to
penny-pinch and apply the nicities of a civilian workplace environment to a
unique way of life that is stifling much of the military ethos we struggle
to retain!
ARNJ
ATN
10 soldiers to 11 commitments, even us squaddies can figure that one out!!
RJN
David Walker wrote in message <379b9...@interalpha.net>...
>I am just writing to find out what peoples vies are on the cancellations of
>future shows. I have heard it is because we cannot afford the manpower.
If
Jimmy Poole
>
>I hope someone saves RT. It is a mark of the continuous drive to
>penny-pinch and apply the nicities of a civilian workplace environment to a
>unique way of life that is stifling much of the military ethos we struggle
>to retain!
>
>ARNJ
Military ethos is dead and gone. If I am told to 'brush the springs on the
Landrover', I want to know why, what it will achieve and why has my buddy
buggered off again to play station football and I have been left holding the
can AGAIN.
Some of us do not and are not willing to follow the instructions of some
dickhead who has done a mickey mouse course at Sandhurst or Cranwell
(depending on your particular force) and obey him blindly just because he
has got a couple of pips and some birdshit on his hat. There are men who
have been in HMF for a long time and have an awful lot of experience to
offer, but cannot because some chop with a commission and a double barrelled
name thinks he knows best. The military ethos needs a damn good kick up the
backside.
Take for example out of area operations, when I joined, I took the oath of
allegiance, the same as everyone, and I saw nothing in it saying that I
would defend the rights of the USA to all that oil, or steam into Bos in the
name of Truth, justice etc.. It did mention defending the realm or
something like that. Since when has a crappy little eastern European
country been part of this sceptred isle. It is not our problem, let
someone who is a bit nearer sort it out, for example, Germany, they were
pretty keen in 1939......
Still bitter (even after all these years)
D R
news:7ni69i$81q$1...@gxsn.com...
>
> David Walker wrote in message <379b9...@interalpha.net>...
> >I am just writing to find out what peoples vies are on the cancellations of
> >future shows. I have heard it is because we cannot afford the manpower.
> If
>
>
<Jimmy's CRAP snipped>
You realy are a looser, quit whining, get on with the job, or get out. Have
you ever asked yourself why you don't get on? Judging from your previous posts
you are a very sad individual who wants every thing on a plate.
If you want to get additional civilian qualifications I suggest you get off
your arse and do them evenings/weekends/leave, etc. and don't expect the RAF
to send you on a couse that in effect has nothing to do with being an
armourer.
BTW the Royal Navy are the Field Gun crews. Keep your bitter and twisted views
to yourself and get lost form this NG. Shape up or ship out, comes to mind.
> A thoroughly pissed off and embittered serviceman (who
> longs for civvystreet with a vengeance!)
Stop talking and do it. You will find if you can cut it in the military, you
are going to have a hard time in civi street, they don't owe you anything; if
you want something you have to get off your arse and get it yourself.
--
Dave
Respond to Group
Reply to Sender address blocked against spam.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jimmy Poole
>Stop talking and do it. You will find if you can cut it in the military,
you
>are going to have a hard time in civi street, they don't owe you anything;
if
>you want something you have to get off your arse and get it yourself.
>--
Already have done comrade. In two years time, I leave the RAF time served
and with qualifications under my belt that they REFUSED point blank to
support me in, telling me QUOTE 'I COULD NOT DO IT BECAUSE OF MY RANK' The
attitude being that unless you have stripes or bars on your shoulder then
you are not worth the shite on an officers shoes.
The military owe everyone who serve. It it wasnt for people willing to put
out for the military, then where would the country be. Many men/ladies etc
including myself have put out time and time again for the military only to
doing crappy duties, station fetes, looking after space cadets, charidee
work (not half!) and for what, so some knackered old warrant officer can
swan off to the palace to collect his OBE. .... OBE is it, I'l tell you what
OBE stands for shall I? OTHER BUGGERS EFFORTS, thats what!
So dont tell me to stop whining old chap, The military is not the place to
be if you have about 2oz of intelligence and the sence you were born with.
Have a nice day
D R
>
> >Stop talking and do it. You will find if you can cut it in the military,you
> >are going to have a hard time in civi street, they don't owe you anything;
if
> >you want something you have to get off your arse and get it yourself.
> >--
>
> Already have done comrade. In two years time, I leave the RAF time served
That's real immediate, big get of arse move there I'll wait until I have
served my time to get out.
> and with qualifications under my belt that they REFUSED point blank to
> support me in, telling me QUOTE 'I COULD NOT DO IT BECAUSE OF MY RANK'
Again you validate my point, 'get of your arse and do it yourself'. Civilian
companies offering the type of course you are interested in don't care what
rank you are, only that you can pay for the course!
> The attitude being that unless you have stripes or bars on your shoulder
then
> you are not worth the shite on an officers shoes.
I feel that the attitude that needs adjusted is yours, how is it possible to
remain in the forces for another two years with that attitude? You aren't
serving your country, you are serving yourself.
> The military owe everyone who serve. It it wasnt for people willing to put
The 'owe' that I refereed to was that of civi street, they owe you nothing.
> out for the military, then where would the country be. Many men/ladies etc
Please don't 'put yourself out' and include yourself with those who have
really served there country, WW1, WW2 veterans and those who quietly get on
and do a good job serving their country. Stop whining you are watering down
the beer.
> including myself have put out time and time again for the military only to
> doing crappy duties, station fetes, looking after space cadets, charidee
> work (not half!) and for what, so some knackered old warrant officer can
> swan off to the palace to collect his OBE. .... OBE is it, I'l tell you what
> OBE stands for shall I? OTHER BUGGERS EFFORTS, thats what!
You can be reasonably confident that many will know what OBE stands for, the
only difference I see in your description is a WO can get it in the RAF when
it's normally a Lt Col in the Army.
When posting in alt.military.uk you can also be reasonably assured that the
majority of readers are serving or ex military members 'your peers' who know a
whinger when they see/hear one.
> So dont tell me to stop whining old chap, The military is not the place to
> be if you have about 2oz of intelligence and the sence you were born with.
I'm not your 'old chap' if I were maybe things would be different. Well just
proves my point again 'you don't have 2 oz of intelligence' and the "sense" to
get out NOW. You keep saying 'the military is not the place to be,' do
something about it GET OUT.
Your Country Doesn't Need YOU!
> Have a nice day
I did.
Jimmy Poole
>That's real immediate, big get of arse move there I'll wait until I have
>served my time to get out.
(FOR 8 GRAND IN THE HAND, I CAN WAIT!)
>
>> and with qualifications under my belt that they REFUSED point blank to
>> support me in, telling me QUOTE 'I COULD NOT DO IT BECAUSE OF MY RANK'
>
>Again you validate my point, 'get of your arse and do it yourself'.
Civilian
>companies offering the type of course you are interested in don't care what
>rank you are, only that you can pay for the course!
>(ALREADY HAVE TAKEN THE COURSE, THANK YOU. ALREADY QUALIFIED)
>> The attitude being that unless you have stripes or bars on your shoulder
>then
>> you are not worth the shite on an officers shoes.
>
>I feel that the attitude that needs adjusted is yours, how is it possible
to
>remain in the forces for another two years with that attitude? You aren't
>serving your country, you are serving yourself.
(IF SENIOR OFFICERS CAN USE THEIR RANK TO GET NICELY PAID JOBS IN RACAL &
MARCONI. WHY SHOULDNT I CONCENTRATE ON PUTTING A LOAF OF BREAD ON THE TABLE
TO FEED MY FAMILY!)
Take for example the Wing Commander/Group Captain/whatever who was on the
project for MFBF, What a pants bit of equipment, however, he is now working
for the company who developed the system (Thorn-EMI or whoever) in a senior
management role. I SPY SLEAZE!
Take for example the AVM who had £20,000 of taxpayers (yours & mine) money
spent on redecorating his Married Quarter. Doing it for the good of the
nation was he, I THINK NOT!
>> The military owe everyone who serve. It it wasnt for people willing to
put
>
>The 'owe' that I refereed to was that of civi street, they owe you nothing.
(AGREED!)
>
>Please don't 'put yourself out' and include yourself with those who have
>really served there country, WW1, WW2 veterans and those who quietly get on
>and do a good job serving their country. Stop whining you are watering down
>the beer.
(DIDNT HM GOVT PROMISE 'HOMES FIT FOR HEROES' WHEN THE BRAVE MEN RETURNED
FROM FIGHTING, WHAT THEY GOT WAS 'HEROES FIT FOR HOMES'.
Take for example when the 'Brave' boys returned from Kosovo, Harriers
landing with a band playing, TV coverage, big parade, all that palava. The
groundcrew arrived a day later, what did they get, sod all, and no doubt
their pay cocked up when they went back to work, as it the role of PMC
>> including myself have put out time and time again for the military only
to
>> doing crappy duties, station fetes, looking after space cadets, charidee
>> work (not half!) and for what, so some knackered old warrant officer can
>> swan off to the palace to collect his OBE. .... OBE is it, I'l tell you
what
>> OBE stands for shall I? OTHER BUGGERS EFFORTS, thats what!
>
>You can be reasonably confident that many will know what OBE stands for,
the
>only difference I see in your description is a WO can get it in the RAF
when
>it's normally a Lt Col in the Army.
OK,Fair point, however regardless of rank, it's always those higher up the
ladder that take all the rewards for not doing a great deal. (I know, I
have played the game many times, and no longer like the rules!)
>When posting in alt.military.uk you can also be reasonably assured that the
>majority of readers are serving or ex military members 'your peers' who
know a
>whinger when they see/hear one.
>
>> So dont tell me to stop whining old chap, The military is not the place
to
>> be if you have about 2oz of intelligence and the sence you were born
with.
>
>I'm not your 'old chap' if I were maybe things would be different. Well
just
>proves my point again 'you don't have 2 oz of intelligence' and the "sense"
to
>get out NOW. You keep saying 'the military is not the place to be,' do
>something about it GET OUT.
>
>Your Country Doesn't Need YOU!
No you are quite right, My country has had it's use from me, abused me and
spat me out.
>> Have a nice day
>
>I did.
>--
Good I am so glad, I trust that you will allow me to as well.
I am not an impatient man, I can wait, and as the old saying goes, 'All good
things.....'
Anyway, isnt it nice to know that the nation is defended by people just like
me, just as embittered but who at the end of the day still do exactly what
is required of them at all times.
I may not like the job, but it's what I am paid to do!. Thats called
professionalism.
Ever heard of it!
D R
I will cut this short because it really isn't worth the effort, you are to
bitter and twisted to change. There are things that you can change in the
services and that is the way you treat those under your control. If you don't
like something that is outside of your rank control you have to attain the
next higher rank and change what you don't like. Then you take the next step
and all the time changing the way things were done that you didn't like in the
previous rank.
You should be very thankful that your current boss saw fit to let you work in
the IT section, forget the past and look to the future.
<Mega Snip>
>
> I am not an impatient man, I can wait, and as the old saying goes, 'All good
> things.....'
£8000 is the only thing you are waiting for. If as you say the salary in civi
street is so much better then the two years wait is not worth it? You would be
starting a new career two years younger no bad thing in the IT industry. I
think you are scared to take the plunge, there are many things that the
service gives you, job security for one.
> Anyway, isnt it nice to know that the nation is defended by people just like
> me, just as embittered but who at the end of the day still do exactly what
> is required of them at all times.
Soldiers in general have a whinge now and then but not every moment of every
day like you, being that bitter has to have an effect on your life. Not
everyone in the services is like you.
> I may not like the job, but it's what I am paid to do!. Thats called
> professionalism.
You could whinge for England. Prostitutes say they don't like what they do but
they are paid for it to,that's not called professionalism, they call it
prostitution!
> Ever heard of it!
Yes and not normally from a whinger.
Adam
military's lease to hold the Tournament there - the other option was the NEC
at Birmingham, and it wan going to prove pretty expensive. In addition, the
manpower costs are pretty prohibitive,not just with the "front liners" in
the main arena, but the rest of the crews. The Field Gun has an A crew, a B
crew, and full supporting cast for all three teams. These guys leave the
ships a couple of months before the RT, without replacement. I think they
have just decided to try and drop the RT as it is not a good recruitment
tool, although it was never intended to be in the first place. More
political, rather than military, as usual.
Jimmy Poole
D R wrote in message <7nktbo$31gj$1...@quince.news.easynet.net>...
YOU MAY THINK THAT, I COULD'NT POSSIBLY COMMENT........
D R
Jimmy Poole <jimp...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7nl669$7s6$1...@gxsn.com...
ATN
ATN
D R wrote in message <7nlcdg$pau$1...@quince.news.easynet.net>...
D R
| So I guess you two won't be meeting up for a beer at the Legion then?
|
| ATN
|
David Walker
to kick thousands out who are trainned and know what they are doing than pay
thousands upon thousands in recruiting advertisment. Then have to pay
another couple of thousand to teach them.
It seams that the politicans have no idea.
And i must say Jimmy its a shame you haven't enjoyed your service and you
have turned so bitter.
By the way, where is he based?
Im going to the RAF Armoury soon for a week. I hope its not the same one or
it will be a barrel of laughs.
cliff
David Walker wrote in message <379f8...@interalpha.net>...
>Well if recruitment is a problem then why all the cutbacks? So it is
better
>to kick thousands out who are trainned and know what they are doing
than pay
>thousands upon thousands in recruiting advertisment. Then have to pay
>another couple of thousand to teach them.
It never ever seems to occur to the beasts of westminister that there
are'nt any 'instant' soldiers:-/
So they make cutbacks in the ranks of all the forces in order to be able
to spend on 'social projects' seemingly unaware that if there is an
unexpected conflict there isnt the manpower to cope..And it takes a
relatively long time to train new recruits.
Even in the so called good old days of much higher manpower and
equipment levels, we never had sufficient forces in Germany to cope with
the potential threat. And the USA took up a lot of the slack, not only
in the UK's commitment but also that of other continental countries.. It
used to make me megga pee'd off..
At one time the reserve armoured regiments in the uk were in the main
those of the TA, and those same regiments were using CVR in the case of
Recce regiments that was older and more clapped out than some of the
targets on the gunnery ranges.. Saracen APC's and AVC's that in some
cases were ones that had been built for 'desert' use, ie engine fans
reversed and blowing out, old internal fittings etc, while those on the
ranges had the newer NI kit, padded interiors banana seats etc..
Larkspur radio kit etc.. Not Clansman..
BUT the kit that was pre-positioned on the European mainland was newer,
tracked veh's FV432 in place of the Saracen APC's.. nobody considered
that it would take time for a driver of a wheeled APC/ACV to learn to
drive tracked 432's and would have been more likely to get himself and
the rest of the crew into the real dwang simply through lack of
experience on the vehicle..
When at least one Armoured Recce regt [with 5 sqdns] was eventually
re-equipped with CVR[T] it took the best part of a year to retrain the
commanders and drivers to the basic level required to be able to field
each sqdn.. And even then they were at no where near the level of
competance that they had had using the older kit.. Takes time to
condition reflexes and automatic responses, doesnt happen overnight:-(
When you consider that the same regt was NATO committed and at one stage
on 24 hrs notice to move, it makes you wonder not only what the idiots
in Westminister were up too, but also the MOD and HQ UKLF...
>It seams that the politicans have no idea.
They never have.. nor do the great British public..read Kipling:-/
During operation Corporate there were pubs in the Victoria area who
banned any/all servicemen & women.. but let any old yobbo in and sold
them booze..
The assumption was that service personnel would cause 'trouble'.. but
the cops were called out on a regular basis to those same pubs due to
public order problems with tourists in their cups..
The fact that many of those service personnel ended up enduring severe
hardship and death on behalf of the public seemingly didnt make a blind
bit of difference.. Profit 1st, last and always..
>And i must say Jimmy its a shame you haven't enjoyed your service and
you
>have turned so bitter.
All told I've spent about 18 years of my life in the forces, in the UK
and elsewhere, and I dont regret one minute of it, the RAF provided me
with a trade [Gen Fitt(e)] the Army prvided me with the stamina and
motivation to carry on when circumstances or events conspired against
me:-)
And the comradeship was ace.. knowing that you could rely on the other
members of the troop to do what was required, when it was required..
Civi street was something else again:-) I've found myself more than once
reaming out a person alledgedly superior to me in civilian employment
for lack of commitment and alertness and drive:-)
>Im going to the RAF Armoury soon for a week. I hope its not the same
one or
>it will be a barrel of laughs.
Have fun:-) And dont run up too big a bill in the mess:-)
--
Cheers,
Cliff.
Fidonet 2:254/176.0 [ZMH] The Tottenham Pyrenean MO Node.
Try BBSing, its fun and offers fast file downloads as well as mail/news
Adam
Admin jobs that are being civilianised. Then look around again at the
support jobs - chefs, stewards, stores, base maintenance - why recruit
people to do these jobs when you can throw mini-money at civilians? Or
retired officers..... Of course, it never registers that these people are
NOT military! They cannot do duties, they can phone in sick, they work only
the hours they are paid for. I think we have to face the fact that the
services are shrinking, despite the claims of new aircraft carriers, tanks,
planes, etc, that will have nobody to use them. The Strategic Defence
Review claimed that we should be able to meet our commitments, including the
ability to be involved in two medium intensity conflicts at the same time.
In early 1999, I took part in both Gulf and Adriatic operations, because
there were not enough resources (men and machinery) to manage both at once.
Everyone keeps on about another Falklands, but chances are it will be
European or Arab conflicts that flare up, and we will be unable to cope. If
the Falklands flared up at the same time, we might as well sign over the
lease. The Royal Tournament was a good focal point (witness this year where
tickets are like gold dust), and no matter what the civil servants in the
ivory towers say, it did make people want to join up. So now we have Navy
Days (one warship, a tug and the Plymouth/Gosport Ferry), Military Tattoos
(next for the chop - watch and see), and Air Days, which is enough to make
anybody not join up. I have two kids, and they would join the services over
my dead body - which, with the amount of work it is currently doing, is
quite likely! ROMFT.
David Walker
forces.
Its good to hear about happy memories in the Forces. I can't wait to join.
I know ill enojoy it because of all the time i've spent with the forces.
The Triple Clown
up his pay statement just cos she's studying for Business Studies degree.
Ahem.......
P-D
ATN <r...@nospam.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7nibld$ri8$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Simple maths mate,
>
> 10 soldiers to 11 commitments, even us squaddies can figure that one out!!
>
> RJN
>
>
> David Walker wrote in message <379b9...@interalpha.net>...
> >I am just writing to find out what peoples vies are on the cancellations
of
> >future shows. I have heard it is because we cannot afford the manpower.
> If