Adultery and Divorce.
guardian Snow
the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.
Marie Curie
On Feb 28, 12:53 pm, Debra <the2goldilo...@aol.com> wrote:
> The question you are not answering Linda...Is the one where Jesus/
> Yeshua changes the definition of adultery and the rules for divorce
> and remarriage.
>
> Debra
You seem to be focused on this is as a personal issue but let's not
speak to that. Analyze this from the perspective of outside the box.
Exo 20:14 “You do not commit adultery.
Lev 20:10 ‘And a man who commits adultery with the wife of another
man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour: the
adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.
Pretty harsh Law that you and I have earned DEATH. Adultery isn't just
limited to husband and wife relationships.
Exo 4:26 So He let him go. Then she said, “You are a bridegroom of
blood,” because of the circumcision.
We can commit spiritual adultery also when we follow after false gods.
So Adultery does have a wider meaning then just marriage but my very
literal brothers tend to see only in the physical aspects.
So how does the Good News of יהושע Messiah, the Son of Elohim change
this?
Mat 5:27 “You heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not
commit adultery.’
Mat 5:28 “But I say to you that everyone looking at a woman to lust
for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
The Messiah explains a wider definition of Adultery that I find is
personally almost impossible to follow. I've often admired a
beautiful lady and by these terms I have committed adultery many times
and I myself am guilty of sin. I confess this here in a forum that is
filled with skeptic's not because I'm proud of the fact but because
it's the truth.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to
forgive us the sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
But we know that your issues go deeper then this because of the quote
by the Messiah:
Mat 5:32 “But I say to you that whoever puts away his wife, except for
the matter of whoring,1 makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries
a woman who has been put away commits adultery. .
And so we compare this to Dt. 24:1:
Deu 24:1 “When a man takes a wife and shall marry her, then it shall
be, if she finds no favour in his eyes because he has found a matter
of uncoveredness in her, and he shall write her a certificate of
divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of his house,
Deu 24:2 and if she left his house and went and became another man’s
wife,
Deu 24:3 and the latter husband shall hate her and write her a
certificate of divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of
his house, or when the latter husband dies who took her to be his
wife,
Deu 24:4 then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to
take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled, for that
would be an abomination before יהוה. And do not bring sin on the land
which יהוה your Elohim is giving you as an inheritance.
The only difference I see is that Deut. doesn't specifically say they
commit adultery. It says that she has been "defiled". Yet, defiled
is a condition of not pure and righteous and so what we see is that
the two do agree.
The Good News is:
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy,
and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but
sinners to repentance.
You have mercy and if your unhappy in your current situation then know
this fact:
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy
shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
shall not be forgiven unto men.
Now you have to make up your own heart on what reasons you have for
not being happy in your relationship and ask yourself first if the log
is in your own eye before you judge the one you love.
Mar 7:15 “There is no matter that enters a man from outside which is
able to defile him, but it is what comes out of him that defiles the
man.
Mar 7:16 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
But I do know this, you have been set free.
Joh 8:31 So יהושע said to those Yehuḏim who believed Him, “If you
stay in My Word, you are truly My taught ones,
Joh 8:32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you
free.”
Joh 8:33 They answered Him, “We are the seed of Aḇraham, and have
been servants to no one at any time. How do you say, ‘You shall become
free’?”
Joh 8:34 יהושע answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone
doing sin is a servant of sin.
So don't continue to be a servant of sin. If it's your desire to serve
Elohim in the best possible fashion, then rededicate your life to and
move on. Ultimately you’ve already committed adultery spiritually and
in your heart. Why live in denial and continue to sin? Either fix
your current situation by recommitting or if you find that unbearable,
be honest with yourself first and then get a divorce.
Mat 6:24 “No one is able to serve two masters, for either he shall
hate the one and love the other, or else he shall cleave to the one
and despise the other. You are not able to serve Elohim and mammon.
The best servant is one that is happy to serve and not one that serves
with bitterness because it’s the law and the same goes for a wife, the
two are intertwined. Don’t stay in a relationship that you despise
just because you believe it’s a sin to leave, Your anger fuels a much
deeper sin.
Psa 139:21 O יהוה, do I not hate them, who hate You? And do I not
loathe those who rise up against You?
Psa 139:22 With a complete hatred I hate them; They have become my
enemies.
Psa 139:23 Search me, O Ěl, and know my heart; Try me, and know my
thoughts;
Psa 139:24 And see if an idolatrous way is in me, And lead me in the
way everlasting.
Shalom,
Snow
Portions of this post are used from ISR (The Scriptures +1998) from
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
Sometimes the situation is only a problem because it is looked at in a
certain way. Looked at in another way, the right course of action may
be so obvious that the problem no longer exists.
Edward de Bono
Debra
>
> Sometimes the situation is only a problem because it is looked at in a
> certain way. Looked at in another way, the right course of action may
> be so obvious that the problem no longer exists.
> Edward de Bono
Spiritual adultery is worshipping a trinity heathen like godman...who
changed Torah... You are right there is spiritual adultery...but who
here is committing it against YHWH?
That is why repentance...true repentance of violating Torah is
imperative.
Debra
guardian Snow
I disagree with you. If this is how you treat people trying to help
you, I'd hate to see how you treat people you dislike.
Shalom,
Snow
Debra
>
> - Show quoted text -
Trying to help me...right.
You still haven't proven NT Messiah did not change Torah.
Debra
guardian Snow
> > > > Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is
> > > > the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.
> > > > Marie Curie- Hide quoted text -
> Trying to help me...right.
>
> You still haven't proven NT Messiah did not change Torah.
A better perspective is that I haven't given proof to you because I
did in fact lay out both views for any reasonable person to see and
come to a conclusion.
Fact:
Adultery is a sin in both Torah and Messianic scriptures. The penalty
for both is death and both have a route to repentance by asking our
Father in heaven.
Given the facts, you choose to ignore them and that is to your own
detriment but there is no way that you can say I didn't give proof.
Just that you don't except the proof I gave. To that end, we must
agree to disagree and discontinue this line of topic because the fact
is that neither of us is going to agree.
Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in
adultery. And having set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act
of adultery.
Joh 8:5 “And in the Torah Mosheh commanded us that such should be
stoned. What then do You say?”
Joh 8:6 And this they said, trying Him, so that they might accuse Him.
But יהושע, bending down, wrote on the ground with the finger, as
though He did not hear.
Joh 8:7 But as they kept on questioning Him, He straightened up and
said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first
to throw a stone at her.”
The only one without sin is our Father in heaven and his Messiah who
redeemed us as strangers and made us brothers and sisters.
Joh 8:10 And יהושע, straightening up and seeing no one but the woman,
said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Did no one
condemn you?”
Joh 8:11 And she said, “No one, Master.” And יהושע said to her,
“Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”1
Shalom,
Snow
I challenge you to make your life a masterpiece. I challenge you to
join the ranks of those people who live what they teach, who walk
their talk.
Tony Robbins
Mark T
>> The question you are not answering Linda...Is the one where Jesus/
>> Yeshua changes the definition of adultery and the rules for divorce
>> and remarriage.
...
> Adultery isn't just limited to husband and wife relationships.
How do you come to that conclusion? It isn't justified in the Torah.
Jesus talks about divorce in Mark 9: 5-12 & Mark 10: 2-12 (which you haven't
mentioned) & Q (Luke 16:18 ; Matthew 5:32) & Matthew 19:3-9.
In Mark's version vs 9 divorce is not permitted (thus altering the Torah
which permits divorce). This reflects the view of Rabbi Hillel and is an
Essene view. The vs 11-12 reflect Roman marriage laws in which either man
or wife could initiate divorce. (As such it is set in a Gentile context.)
In the Torah only the man can initiate divorce. vs 6-7 reflect the
Christian use of the Greek Septuagint (the real Jesus didn't quote the
Septuagint). Mark's gospel reflects the practice during the time of writing
(65 - 80 CE) and NOT the view of the Jewish Jesus of Nazareth and the time
in which he lived. This story is pinched from Mark by Luke and is also a Q
saying. Mark's gospel is written 65 - 80 CE. Luke's gospel is written 80
CE - 130 CE.
Matthew's source is Mark (he pinches tyhe story from Mark's gospel) but he
changes bits and pieces. Matthew introduces infidelity as the only reason
for divorce. Jesus here agrees with Rabbi Shammai. Matthew's version
reflects the Torah and standard Judean view. Mathew's gospel is written
80 -100 CE.
Note that the latter written John's gospel (90 - 120 CE) doesn't mention
divorce at all.
Oh .. I forgot .. I'm supposed to be ignaorant about the New Testament . ;-)
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
PASTOR DALE K WHANGKE
http://dalekwhangke.blogspot.com/
Wyrst Pentacostal Church
Mark T
> Spiritual adultery is worshipping a trinity heathen like godman.
Yep! Jesus of Nazareth said the same thing.
--
'Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one Lord' [Deut. 6:4]
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O
Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.-Mark 12:29
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.-Exodus 20:3
bob young
guardian Snow wrote:
> Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is
> the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.
> Marie Curie
> On Feb 28, 12:53 pm, Debra <the2goldilo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > The question you are not answering Linda...Is the one where Jesus/
> > Yeshua changes the definition of adultery and the rules for divorce
> > and remarriage.
> >
> > Debra
>
> You seem to be focused on this is as a personal issue but let's not
> speak to that. Analyze this from the perspective of outside the box.
>
> Exo 20:14 β You do not commit adultery.
>
> Lev 20:10 β And a man who commits adultery with the wife of another
> man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour: the
> adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.
>
> Pretty harsh Law that you and I have earned DEATH. Adultery isn't just
> limited to husband and wife relationships.
>
> Exo 4:26 So He let him go. Then she said, β You are a bridegroom of
> blood,β because of the circumcision.
>
> We can commit spiritual adultery also when we follow after false gods.
ROFL THEY ARE ALL FALSE YOU SILLY PERSON
>
> So Adultery does have a wider meaning then just marriage but my very
> literal brothers tend to see only in the physical aspects.
>
> So how does the Good News of Χ Χ Χ Χ©Χ’ Messiah, the Son of Elohim change
> this?
>
> Mat 5:27 β You heard that it was said to those of old, β You shall not
> commit adultery.β
> Mat 5:28 β But I say to you that everyone looking at a woman to lust
> for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
>
> The Messiah explains a wider definition of Adultery that I find is
> personally almost impossible to follow. I've often admired a
> beautiful lady and by these terms I have committed adultery many times
> and I myself am guilty of sin. I confess this here in a forum that is
> filled with skeptic's not because I'm proud of the fact but because
> it's the truth.
>
> 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to
> forgive us the sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
>
> But we know that your issues go deeper then this because of the quote
> by the Messiah:
>
> Mat 5:32 β But I say to you that whoever puts away his wife, except for
> the matter of whoring,1 makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries
> a woman who has been put away commits adultery. .
>
> And so we compare this to Dt. 24:1:
>
> Deu 24:1 β When a man takes a wife and shall marry her, then it shall
> be, if she finds no favour in his eyes because he has found a matter
> of uncoveredness in her, and he shall write her a certificate of
> divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of his house,
> Deu 24:2 and if she left his house and went and became another manβ s
> wife,
> Deu 24:3 and the latter husband shall hate her and write her a
> certificate of divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of
> his house, or when the latter husband dies who took her to be his
> wife,
> Deu 24:4 then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to
> take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled, for that
> would be an abomination before Χ Χ Χ Χ . And do not bring sin on the land
> which Χ Χ Χ Χ your Elohim is giving you as an inheritance.
>
> The only difference I see is that Deut. doesn't specifically say they
> commit adultery. It says that she has been "defiled". Yet, defiled
> is a condition of not pure and righteous and so what we see is that
> the two do agree.
>
> The Good News is:
>
> Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy,
> and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but
> sinners to repentance.
>
> You have mercy and if your unhappy in your current situation then know
> this fact:
>
> Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy
> shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
> shall not be forgiven unto men.
>
> Now you have to make up your own heart on what reasons you have for
> not being happy in your relationship and ask yourself first if the log
> is in your own eye before you judge the one you love.
>
> Mar 7:15 β There is no matter that enters a man from outside which is
> able to defile him, but it is what comes out of him that defiles the
> man.
> Mar 7:16 β If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!β
>
> But I do know this, you have been set free.
>
> Joh 8:31 So Χ Χ Χ Χ©Χ’ said to those YehudΜ±im who believed Him, β If you
> stay in My Word, you are truly My taught ones,
> Joh 8:32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you
> free.β
> Joh 8:33 They answered Him, β We are the seed of AbΜ±raham, and have
> been servants to no one at any time. How do you say, β You shall become
> freeβ ?β
> Joh 8:34 Χ Χ Χ Χ©Χ’ answered them, β Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone
> doing sin is a servant of sin.
>
> So don't continue to be a servant of sin. If it's your desire to serve
> Elohim in the best possible fashion, then rededicate your life to and
> move on. Ultimately youβ ve already committed adultery spiritually and
> in your heart. Why live in denial and continue to sin? Either fix
> your current situation by recommitting or if you find that unbearable,
> be honest with yourself first and then get a divorce.
>
> Mat 6:24 β No one is able to serve two masters, for either he shall
> hate the one and love the other, or else he shall cleave to the one
> and despise the other. You are not able to serve Elohim and mammon.
>
> The best servant is one that is happy to serve and not one that serves
> with bitterness because itβ s the law and the same goes for a wife, the
> two are intertwined. Donβ t stay in a relationship that you despise
> just because you believe itβ s a sin to leave, Your anger fuels a much
> deeper sin.
>
> Psa 139:21 O Χ Χ Χ Χ , do I not hate them, who hate You? And do I not
> loathe those who rise up against You?
> Psa 139:22 With a complete hatred I hate them; They have become my
> enemies.
> Psa 139:23 Search me, O Δ l, and know my heart; Try me, and know my
Mark T
> I haven't given proof to you because I did in fact lay out both views for
> any > reasonable person to see and come to a conclusion.
No you didn't!
You didn't even mention the passages in Mark's Gospel or the one in Luke's
gospel.
> Adultery is a sin in both Torah and Messianic scriptures.
What IS adultery according to both?????
Are the definitions the SAME?????
I suggest that they AREN'T the same definition!!!!!
Read ya bible and find out!!!!!
Mark T
>If this is how you treat people trying to help
> you, I'd hate to see how you treat people you dislike.
Debra does not need your help.
You need help from Debra.
I have just proved that DEBRA IS CORRECT! In the Markian version of Jesus'
comments on divorce Jesus tries to change the Torah by quoting the Greek
Setuagint scriptures on Genesis concerning Adam and Eve. Of course, Matthew
CONTRADICTS that version.
You who think that the New Testament is "God's word" and infallible are now
in a bind. Which is the one and only TRUE version of Jesus' views on
divorce????? Or did Jesus change his mind? (Does God change HIs mind???)
Waiting for an answer ...................
bob young
Debra wrote:
> On Feb 28, 8:49Β pm, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
> > Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is
> > the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.
> > Marie Curie
> > On Feb 28, 12:53 pm, Debra <the2goldilo...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The question you are not answering Linda...Is the one where Jesus/
> > > Yeshua changes the definition of adultery and the rules for divorce
> > > and remarriage.
> >
> > > Debra
> >
> > You seem to be focused on this is as a personal issue but let's not
> > speak to that. Β Analyze this from the perspective of outside the box.
> >
> > Exo 20:14 β You do not commit adultery.
> >
> > Lev 20:10 β And a man who commits adultery with the wife of another
> > man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour: the
> > adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.
> >
> > Pretty harsh Law that you and I have earned DEATH. Adultery isn't just
> > limited to husband and wife relationships.
> >
> > Exo 4:26 So He let him go. Then she said, β You are a bridegroom of
> > blood,β because of the circumcision.
> >
> > We can commit spiritual adultery also when we follow after false gods.
> > So Adultery does have a wider meaning then just marriage but my very
> > literal brothers tend to see only in the physical aspects.
> >
> > So how does the Good News of Χ Χ Χ Χ©Χ’ Messiah, the Son of Elohim change
> > this?
> >
> > Mat 5:27 β You heard that it was said to those of old, β You shall not
> > commit adultery.β
> > Mat 5:28 β But I say to you that everyone looking at a woman to lust
> > for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
> >
> > The Messiah explains a wider definition of Adultery that I find is
> > personally almost impossible to follow. Β I've often admired a
> > beautiful lady and by these terms I have committed adultery many times
> > and I myself am guilty of sin. Β I confess this here in a forum that is
> > filled with skeptic's not because I'm proud of the fact but because
> > it's the truth.
> >
> > 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to
> > forgive us the sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
> >
> > But we know that your issues go deeper then this because of the quote
> > by the Messiah:
> >
> > Mat 5:32 β But I say to you that whoever puts away his wife, except for
> > the matter of whoring,1 makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries
> > a woman who has been put away commits adultery. .
> >
> > And so we compare this to Dt. 24:1:
> >
> > Deu 24:1 Β β When a man takes a wife and shall marry her, then it shall
> > be, if she finds no favour in his eyes because he has found a matter
> > of uncoveredness in her, and he shall write her a certificate of
> > divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of his house,
> > Deu 24:2 and if she left his house and went and became another manβ s
> > wife,
> > Deu 24:3 and the latter husband shall hate her and write her a
> > certificate of divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of
> > his house, or when the latter husband dies who took her to be his
> > wife,
> > Deu 24:4 then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to
> > take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled, for that
> > would be an abomination before Χ Χ Χ Χ . And do not bring sin on the land
> > which Χ Χ Χ Χ your Elohim is giving you as an inheritance.
> >
> > Β The only difference I see is that Deut. doesn't specifically say they
> > commit adultery. Β It says that she has been "defiled". Β Yet, defiled
> > is a condition of not pure and righteous and so what we see is that
> > the two do agree.
> >
> > The Good News is:
> >
> > Mat 9:13 Β But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy,
> > and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but
> > sinners to repentance.
> >
> > You have mercy and if your unhappy in your current situation then know
> > this fact:
> >
> > Mat 12:31 Β Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy
> > shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
> > shall not be forgiven unto men.
> >
> > Now you have to make up your own heart on what reasons you have for
> > not being happy in your relationship and ask yourself first if the log
> > is in your own eye before you judge the one you love.
> >
> > Mar 7:15 β There is no matter that enters a man from outside which is
> > able to defile him, but it is what comes out of him that defiles the
> > man.
> > Mar 7:16 β If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!β
> >
> > But I do know this, you have been set free.
> >
> > Joh 8:31 So Χ Χ Χ Χ©Χ’ said to those YehudΜ±im who believed Him, β If you
> > stay in My Word, you are truly My taught ones,
> > Joh 8:32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you
> > free.β
> > Joh 8:33 They answered Him, β We are the seed of AbΜ±raham, and have
> > been servants to no one at any time. How do you say, β You shall become
> > freeβ ?β
> > Joh 8:34 Χ Χ Χ Χ©Χ’ answered them, β Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone
> > doing sin is a servant of sin.
> >
> > So don't continue to be a servant of sin. If it's your desire to serve
> > Elohim in the best possible fashion, then rededicate your life to and
> > move on. Ultimately youβ ve already committed adultery spiritually and
> > in your heart. Β Why live in denial and continue to sin? Β Either fix
> > your current situation by recommitting or if you find that unbearable,
> > be honest with yourself first and then get a divorce.
> >
> > Mat 6:24 β No one is able to serve two masters, for either he shall
> > hate the one and love the other, or else he shall cleave to the one
> > and despise the other. You are not able to serve Elohim and mammon.
> >
> > The best servant is one that is happy to serve and not one that serves
> > with bitterness because itβ s the law and the same goes for a wife, the
> > two are intertwined. Β Donβ t stay in a relationship that you despise
> > just because you believe itβ s a sin to leave, Your anger fuels a much
> > deeper sin.
> >
> > Psa 139:21 O Χ Χ Χ Χ , do I not hate them, who hate You? And do I not
> > loathe those who rise up against You?
> > Psa 139:22 With a complete hatred I hate them; They have become my
> > enemies.
> > Psa 139:23 Search me, O Δ l, and know my heart; Try me, and know my
> > thoughts;
> > Psa 139:24 And see if an idolatrous way is in me, And lead me in the
> > way everlasting.
> >
> > Shalom,
> > Snow
> >
> > Portions of this post are used from ISR (The Scriptures +1998) fromhttp://www.isr-messianic.org/
> >
> > Sometimes the situation is only a problem because it is looked at in a
> > certain way. Looked at in another way, the right course of action may
> > be so obvious that the problem no longer exists.
> > Edward de Bono
>
> Spiritual adultery is worshipping a trinity heathen like godman...who
> changed Torah... You are right there is spiritual adultery...but who
> here is committing it against YHWH?
To prove spiritual adultery you first have to prove the gods.
As you know perfectly well that you cannot do that
the point is groundless.
guardian Snow
.
> > Adultery isn't just limited to husband and wife relationships.
>
> How do you come to that conclusion? It isn't justified in the Torah.
Exo 4:24 And it came to be on the way, in the lodging place, that יהוה
met him and sought to kill him.
Exo 4:25 And Tsipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of
her son and threw it at Mosheh’s feet, and said, “You are indeed a
bridegroom of blood to me!”
Exo 4:26 So He let him go. Then she said, “You are a bridegroom of
blood,” because of the circumcision.
First we see that by circumcision we "are indeed a bridegroom" of the
Father.
Deu 10:16 “And you shall circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and
harden your neck no more.
But it's not just the physical act of circumcision that he is looking
for. We are to circumcise our hearts and that requires Faith and
belief. This is shown by the fact that he says, "harden your neck no
more". In other words, pay attention and listen attentively.
Now of course a person with your hardened heart isn't going to put
that together but I did lay it out for you as my witness to you.
Shalom,
Snow
For changes to be of any true value, they've got to be lasting and
consistent.
Tony Robbins
Linda Lee
> On Feb 29, 5:23 pm, Debra <the2goldilo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 28, 8:49 pm, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>
> > > Sometimes the situation is only a problem because it is looked at in a
> > > certain way. Looked at in another way, the right course of action may
> > > be so obvious that the problem no longer exists.
> > > Edward de Bono
>
> > Spiritual adultery is worshipping a trinity heathen like godman...who
> > changed Torah... You are right there is spiritual adultery...but who
> > here is committing it against YHWH?
>
> you, I'd hate to see how you treat people you dislike.
>
Dictionary.com Unabridged
ha·rass
–verb (used with object) 1. to disturb persistently; torment, as with
troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute.
2. to trouble by repeated attacks, incursions, etc., as in war or
hostilities; harry; raid.
[Origin: 1610–20; < F, MF harasser to harry, harass, v. der. of
harace, harache (in phrase courre a la harace pursue) = hare cry used
to urge dogs on (< Frankish *hara here, from this side; cf. OHG hera,
MD hare) + -asse aug. or pejorative suffix < L -ācea]
American Heritage Dictionary - ha·rass
To irritate or torment persistently.
To wear out; exhaust.
To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.
[French harasser, possibly from Old French harer, to set a dog on,
from hare, interj. used to set a dog on, of Germanic origin.]
Synonyms: These verbs mean to trouble persistently or incessantly.
Harass and harry imply systematic persecution by besieging with
repeated annoyances, threats, or demands: [EXAMPLE] The landlord
harassed tenants who were behind in their rent. A rude customer had
harried the storekeeper.
Hound suggests unrelenting pursuit to gain a desired end: [EXAMPLE]
Reporters hounded the celebrity for an interview.
To badger is to nag or tease persistently: [EXAMPLE] The child
badgered his parents for a new bicycle.
To pester is to inflict a succession of petty annoyances: [EXAMPLE]
"How she would have pursued and pestered me with questions and
surmises" (Charlotte Brontë).
Plague refers to a problem likened to an epidemic disease: [EXAMPLE]
"As I have no estate, I am plagued with no tenants or
stewards" (Henry
Fielding).
guardian Snow
> On Feb 29, 1:42 am, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 29, 5:23 pm, Debra <the2goldilo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 28, 8:49 pm, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>
> > > > Sometimes the situation is only a problem because it is looked at in a
> > > > certain way. Looked at in another way, the right course of action may
> > > > be so obvious that the problem no longer exists.
> > > > Edward de Bono
>
> > > Spiritual adultery is worshipping a trinity heathen like godman...who
> > > changed Torah... You are right there is spiritual adultery...but who
> > > here is committing it against YHWH?
>
> > I disagree with you. If this is how you treat people trying to help
> > you, I'd hate to see how you treat people you dislike.
>
> Dictionary.com Unabridged
> ha·rass
> troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute.
> 2. to trouble by repeated attacks, incursions, etc., as in war or
> hostilities; harry; raid.
I'll take a wild guess and assume that your not directing that at me.
If you are then hopefully you understand that it's clearly not my
intension. Personally, I'm doing my best not to label people outside
of just saying they are hard hearted which in the scheme of things is
a pretty mild touch. I'm attempting to do unto others as you would
have them do to you. If somebody told me I'm hard hearted, I'd have to
agree with them on a lot of issues, which you'd certainly agree with.
I don't know why she thinks it's O.K. to get personal with people when
it's not her relationship I was speaking about but relationships in
general.
I can't actually speak about her relationship because
I don't know her. I don't know her situation. I don't even know
anything about her relationship outside of the fact that she claimed
at one point to be in a happy marriage and that divorce wasn't an
issue with her. The only reason I made this particular issue the
topic was that she brought it up.
Shalom,
Snow
People are not lazy. They simply have impotent goals - that is, goals
that do not inspire them.
Tony Robbins
Mark T
>> > Adultery isn't just limited to husband and wife relationships.
>> How do you come to that conclusion? It isn't justified in the Torah.
...
> Exo 4:24
...
> Deu 10:16
That has nothing to do with physical Adultery and Divorce.
guardian Snow
>> > Adultery isn't just limited to husband and wife relationships.
>> How do you come to that conclusion? It isn't justified in the Torah.
> That has nothing to do with physical Adultery and Divorce.
So now it's "physical adultery". Good game you play. If we limit it
to Torah.. In scriptures King David said,
Psa 50:18 "When you saw a thief, you were pleased with him, And you
take part with adulterers.
Shalom,
Snow
Once you have mastered time, you will understand how true it is that
most people overestimate what they can accomplish in a year - and
underestimate what they can achieve in a decade!
Tony Robbins
Nicodemus
>
> Debra wrote:
>
>> On Feb 28, 8:49 pm, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>> > Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now
>> > is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.
>> > Marie Curie
>> > On Feb 28, 12:53 pm, Debra <the2goldilo...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > The question you are not answering Linda...Is the one where
>> > > Jesus/ Yeshua changes the definition of adultery and the rules
>> > > for divorce and remarriage.
>> >
>> > > Debra
>> >
>> > You seem to be focused on this is as a personal issue but let's not
>> > box.
>> >
>> > Exo 20:14 You do not commit adultery.
>> >
>> > Lev 20:10 ‘And a man who commits adultery with the wife of
>> > another man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour:
>> > the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.
>> >
>> > Pretty harsh Law that you and I have earned DEATH. Adultery isn't
>> > just limited to husband and wife relationships.
>> >
>> > of blood,” because of the circumcision.
>> >
>> > We can commit spiritual adultery also when we follow after false
>> > gods. So Adultery does have a wider meaning then just marriage but
>> > my very literal brothers tend to see only in the physical aspects.
>> >
>> > change this?
>> >
>> > Mat 5:27 You heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You
>> > shall not commit adultery.’
>> > Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone looking at a woman to
>> > lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
>> >
>> > The Messiah explains a wider definition of Adultery that I find is
>> > beautiful lady and by these terms I have committed adultery many
>> > forum that is filled with skeptic's not because I'm proud of the
>> > fact but because it's the truth.
>> >
>> > 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to
>> > forgive us the sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
>> >
>> > But we know that your issues go deeper then this because of the
>> > quote by the Messiah:
>> >
>> > except for the matter of whoring,1 makes her commit adultery. And
>> > whoever marries a woman who has been put away commits adultery. .
>> >
>> > And so we compare this to Dt. 24:1:
>> >
>> > shall be, if she finds no favour in his eyes because he has found a
>> > matter of uncoveredness in her, and he shall write her a
>> > certificate of divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of
>> > his house, Deu 24:2 and if she left his house and went and became
>> > Deu 24:3 and the latter husband shall hate her and write her a
>> > certificate of divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of
>> > his house, or when the latter husband dies who took her to be his
>> > wife,
>> > Deu 24:4 then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed
>> > to take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled, for
>> > on the land which יהוה your Elohim is giving you as an
>> > inheritance.
>> >
>> > The only difference I see is that Deut. doesn't specifically say
>> > defiled is a condition of not pure and righteous and so what we see
>> > is that the two do agree.
>> >
>> > The Good News is:
>> >
>> > mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous,
>> > but sinners to repentance.
>> >
>> > You have mercy and if your unhappy in your current situation then
>> > know this fact:
>> >
>> > blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the
>> > Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
>> >
>> > Now you have to make up your own heart on what reasons you have for
>> > not being happy in your relationship and ask yourself first if the
>> > log is in your own eye before you judge the one you love.
>> >
>> > is able to defile him, but it is what comes out of him that defiles
>> > the man.
>> >
>> > But I do know this, you have been set free.
>> >
>> > Joh 8:32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you
>> > Joh 8:33 They answered Him, We are the seed of Aḇraham, and
>> > have been servants to no one at any time. How do you say, ‘You
>> > shall become free’?”
>> > Joh 8:34 יהושע answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you,
>> > everyone doing sin is a servant of sin.
>> >
>> > So don't continue to be a servant of sin. If it's your desire to
>> > serve Elohim in the best possible fashion, then rededicate your
>> > spiritually and in your heart. Why live in denial and continue
>> > to sin? Either fix your current situation by recommitting or if
>> > you find that unbearable, be honest with yourself first and then
>> > get a divorce.
>> >
>> > shall hate the one and love the other, or else he shall cleave to
>> > the one and despise the other. You are not able to serve Elohim and
>> > mammon.
>> >
>> > The best servant is one that is happy to serve and not one that
>> > a wife, the two are intertwined. Don’t stay in a relationship
>> > that you despise just because you believe it’s a sin to leave,
>> > Your anger fuels a much deeper sin.
>> >
>> > not loathe those who rise up against You?
>> > Psa 139:22 With a complete hatred I hate them; They have become my
>> > enemies.
>> > thoughts;
>> > Psa 139:24 And see if an idolatrous way is in me, And lead me in
>> > the way everlasting.
>> >
>> > Shalom,
>> > Snow
>> >
>> > Portions of this post are used from ISR (The Scriptures +1998)
>> > fromhttp://www.isr-messianic.org/
>> >
>> > Sometimes the situation is only a problem because it is looked at
>> > in a certain way. Looked at in another way, the right course of
>> > action may be so obvious that the problem no longer exists.
>> > Edward de Bono
>>
>> Spiritual adultery is worshipping a trinity heathen like godman...who
>> changed Torah... You are right there is spiritual adultery...but who
>> here is committing it against YHWH?
>
> To prove spiritual adultery you first have to prove the gods.
> As you know perfectly well that you cannot do that
> the point is groundless.
>
can see for miles and miles, you wonder about The Stars, it is Time,
saint...@hotmail.com
> On Feb 28, 10:42�pm, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
> > On Feb 29, 5:23 pm, Debra <the2goldilo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 28, 8:49 pm, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>
> > > > Sometimes the situation is only a problem because it is looked at in a
> > > > certain way. Looked at in another way, the right course of action may
> > > > be so obvious that the problem no longer exists.
> > > > Edward de Bono
>
> > > Spiritual adultery is worshipping a trinity heathen like godman...who
> > > changed Torah... You are right there is spiritual adultery...but who
> > > here is committing it against YHWH?
>
> > > That is why repentance...true repentance of violating Torah is
> > > imperative.
>
> > I disagree with you. �If this is how you treat people trying to help
> > you, I'd hate to see how you treat people you dislike.
>
> > Shalom,
>
> > Snow
>
> > > > Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is
> > > > the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.
> > > > Marie Curie
>
> Trying to help me...right.
>
> You still haven't proven NT Messiah did not change Torah.
>
> Debra
Debra is quite beyond help - she is right about that! Her "G-d" is a
hypocrite who allowed David to commit the most egregious form of
adultery possible, where the husband is sent off to die defending the
crown, while the crown commits adultery with his wife.
Moreover, there is a big difference in consequences between JHVH and
JHVSA. JHVH says (hypocritically) that you must die if you commit
adultery. JHVSA gives a stiffer definition, but then He says that He
Himself must die for your sin. He loves you enough to give Himself as
a sacrifice for you. No matter how hard His definition of sin may be,
it is all covered by the fact that He is dying for those sins, not
you.
Qadosh Stephanos
<snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>I'll take a wild guess and assume that your not directing that at me.
God is not a wild guesser.
guardian Snow
wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 05:15:59 -0800 (PST), guardian Snow
>
> >I'll take a wild guess and assume that your not directing that at me.
>
> God is not a wild guesser.
It's a good thing I'm not claiming to be Elohim. Are you? I wonder
about that sometimes.
Rev 13:10 He who brings into captivity shall go into captivity, he who
kills with the sword has to be killed with the sword. Here is the
endurance and the belief of the set-apart ones.
guardian Snow
> Debra does not need your help. You need help from Debra.
I did my best to faithfully answer the question in the way I see it
and respectfully disagree with you Mark.
I don't have a problem with agreeing to disagree with you because I do
respect you.
I see no point in bickering about it and have determined the best
course of action is that I respect your faith and attempt to build
each other so that we are better people. Ultimately if faith doesn't
make us better people then what good is it?
You take care Mark and I look forward to buying you a coffee.
Shalom,
Snow
The way we communicate with others and with ourselves ultimately
determines the quality of our lives.
Tony Robbins
Azure Kite
news:a6597c51-0fb4-4ae2...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 29, 8:01 pm, "Mark T" <snailmail@letterbox0000029> wrote:
>
>> Debra does not need your help. You need help from Debra.
>
> I did my best to faithfully answer the question in the way I see it
> and respectfully disagree with you Mark.
> I don't have a problem with agreeing to disagree with you because I do
> respect you.
>
The poster Mary Hogan seems to be very much in tune.
guardian Snow
> The poster Mary Hogan seems to be very much in tune.
I'd say with my experience speaking with her, she's as sharp as a tack
and very cleaver. I think she is a fine lady with high moral
standards and excellent debating skills. I wouldn't want to be on her
bad side.
Shalom,
Snow
Using the power of decision gives you the capacity to get past any
excuse to change any and every part of your life in an instant.
Tony Robbins
saint...@hotmail.com
> On Mar 3, 12:29 am, "Azure Kite" <hanaram...@archangels.mil> wrote:
>
> > The poster Mary Hogan seems to be very much in tune.
>
> I'd say with my experience speaking with her, she's as sharp as a tack
> and very cleaver. I think she is a fine lady with high moral
> standards and excellent debating skills. I wouldn't want to be on her
> bad side.
>
> Shalom,
>
> Snow
She would be a fine woman for a man without a conscience.
Debra
>
> - Show quoted text -
That is a flat out lie...Would you like me to begin posting all of the
emails again that I have permission to post? I did not post all of
them and I did obtain permission to post them...I NEVER told you "I
was in a happy relationship and that divorce wasn't an issue"...
You are amazing Mark...You just told a flat out lie.
So Mark...I was reading online...and I came across this Baptist
Website where you posted with a woman's name your address phone
number, etc and your email address...
I was surprised.
You told me you were single...and tried to flirt with me...and I told
you I was married...
What happened with your wife?
Debra
Debra
He is not playing a game...You were challenged to answer and prove
that Jesus/Yeshua did not in fact change YHWH's Torah for men to
follow regarding adultery, divorce and remarriage... You are the one
playing the game of speaking on spiritual adultery...Which is a
DIFFERENT topic...You have not answered the first question for months
now.
Debra
Debra
>
> - Show quoted text -
Pardon me...but you claimed to be Messiah among many other things on
these threads...
Hmmm...
Debra
Debra
You saw no point in actually proving that Jesus/Yeshua did not change
YHWH's Torah teachings which are eternal...regarding divorce, adultery
and remarriage...They are different.
Debra
Debra
> "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Has Mary responded on this topic somewhere? Just curious.
I wonder if Mark will really buy Mark a coffee...If he will follow
through.
Debra
saint...@hotmail.com
> Pardon me...but you claimed to be Messiah among many other things on
> these threads...
> Hmmm...
>
> Debra
I gave a real argument, you dumb bitch. That means it stands
independent of the one making the argument. Your ad hominem argument
in no way refutes my real argument.
cactus
accurate and on point you are, the nastier and more puerile he becomes.
Judging by his response, it looks like you got him good.
guardian Snow
> He is not playing a game...You were challenged to answer and prove
> that Jesus/Yeshua did not in fact change YHWH's Torah for men to
> follow regarding adultery, divorce and remarriage... You are the one
> playing the game of speaking on spiritual adultery...Which is a
> DIFFERENT topic...You have not answered the first question for months
> now.
I did answer your interrogation and you didn't except my answer.
Their is a difference you know. You can't say WRONG, you didn't
answer. You can only say, wrong answer. In which case it means that
we only disagree. This goes to show that you do have a learning
disability when you can't decipher between the two.
Shalom,
Snow
You always succeed in producing a result.
Tony Robbins
Linda Lee
>
> - Show quoted text -
It was a response to your comment: "If this is how you treat people
trying to help you, I'd hate to see how you treat people you dislike".
That is how.
guardian Snow
> It was a response to your comment: "If this is how you treat people
> trying to help you, I'd hate to see how you treat people you dislike".
> That is how.
Actually, My point was that the Law was in effect NOT changed and no
changes in the way that Adultery is defined were made. Debra's issue
with Messianic scriptures dwells on one simple fact...
She thinks it's "easier" for a lady to leave her husband under Torah
Law where it just says to give a certificate of divorce. Her problem
arises from the fact that the Messiah states in no certain terms that
the woman commits adultery when she takes a second husband.
Mat 5:32 “But I say to you that whoever puts away his wife, except for
the matter of whoring, makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries
a woman who has been put away commits adultery.
She denies the entire Messianic scriptures because she doesn't like
this single verse. She wrongly believe that this verse is a change
from the law of the Torah. The fact is, it doesn't change, the book
of Duet. only uses different words.
Deu 24:4 then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to
take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled, for that
would be an abomination before יהוה. And do not bring sin on the land
which יהוה your Elohim is giving you as an inheritance.
While יהושע Messiah says the word adultery, Deutoronomy 24:4 says that
a woman is "defiled" by a second husband and to take her back is an
abomination. Because of her hardened heart, she can't see that they
are the same thing. As I've stated all along, both consider adultery
a sin, both punishable by death and both have the same path to
redemption in calling out to our Father in heaven for repentance.
Mat 5:27 “You heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not
commit adultery.’
I also covered the fact that the Messiah spoke to spiritual adultery
which was covered by the Torah. I think she believe that יהושע
Messiah should be like her and only read the Torah rather then be the
teacher and explains things.
Mat 19:16 And see, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good
shall I do to have everlasting life?”
Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good
except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the
commands.”
Clearly the Messiah taught One Elohim and keeping the Torah of life.
She's welcome to disagree with me but she can't say I didn't give an
answer. All this same information was laid out in the original post.
I was trying to help her by letting her know that even if for example
you left your husband, it is forgiven.
Mat 12:31 “Because of this I say to you, all sin and blasphemy shall
be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be
forgiven men.
Shalom,
Snow
No scoundrel is so stupid as to not find a reason for his vile
conduct.
Shakti Gawain
saint...@hotmail.com
guardian Snow
Please delete that post. Some things don't need a response and by
acting in this way you only lower yourself to a worse standard rather
then making yourself appear better. It wasn't even worth the time to
type that out.
Set a higher standard. I expect better things from you PJmut.
Shalom,
Snow
Every time you don't follow your inner guidance, you feel a loss of
energy, loss of power, a sense of spiritual deadness.
Shakti Gawain
saint...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't know how to delete a post, but in any case, I think it was
appropriate. Cactus is truly being a cunt, or prick if you like that
word better. He never contributes to the debate, never makes a real
argument, and only indulges in ad hominem after ad hominem. I think
we should call a cunt a cunt. Remember, I am NOT a Christian, so I am
not bound by your morality. My religion, Zen Judaism, believes in
straightforwardness and honesty above false moral restrictions.
guardian Snow
I have revoked that permission (posting my email to you) due to
abuse. I see that once again you are taking to crossing the line and
abusing my attempt to help you by abusing me. Besides, you've already
done that (posting my email to you).
Somehow I skipped past this post but your claim is interesting to me.
I would point out that first off, you don't know my address as I NEVER
give that information out via internet as part of our security
prohibition. I never post any information that is personal outside of
the fact that I have a family that resides in the United States.
I've made every attempt to not get personal with you Debra and only
speak in general terms. You have no right to ask me about my personal
life or get personal with me. It shows what a deprived evil person
you are. How pathetic are you?
> So Mark...I was reading online...and I came across this Baptist
> Website where you posted with a woman's name your address phone
> number, etc and your email address...
As to the use of my email address.. it wouldn't be the first time that
somebody has copied me and fraudulently posted as me. You are truly a
sick individual and beyond my help. At this point I'd say it's best
that we discontinue speaking again... back to the black list for you.
Since clearly I am not a Baptist, your site is obviously a fraud but
you assumed it was correct. You don't know my phone number or my
physical address and I never give that information out. The closest I
ever say is that I am in Victoria for security issues.
You don't know me and you never will. Get over me, I'm not interested
in you. I'm sorry to have attempted to help you.
Snow
The closer the source of light is to a subject, the broader the beams
are.
Conrad Hall
Mark T
On Mar 3, 7:52 am, Linda Lee <lindaleekelle...@juno.com> wrote:
>> It was a response to your comment: "If this is how you treat people
>> trying to help you, I'd hate to see how you treat people you dislike".
>> That is how.
...
> Actually, My point was that the Law was in effect NOT changed and no
> changes in the way that Adultery is defined were made.
Jesus talks about divorce in Mark 9: 5-12 & Mark 10: 2-12 (which you haven't
mentioned) & Q (Luke 16:18 ; Matthew 5:32) & Matthew 19:3-9.
In Mark's version vs 9 divorce is not permitted (thus altering the Torah
which permits divorce). This reflects the view of Rabbi Hillel and is an
Essene view. The vs 11-12 reflect Roman marriage laws in which either man
or wife could initiate divorce. (As such it is set in a Gentile context.)
In the Torah only the man can initiate divorce. vs 6-7 reflect the
Christian use of the Greek Septuagint (the real Jesus didn't quote the
Septuagint). Mark's gospel reflects the practice during the time of writing
(65 - 80 CE) and NOT the view of the Jewish Jesus of Nazareth and the time
in which he lived. This story is pinched from Mark by Luke and is also a Q
saying. Mark's gospel is written 65 - 80 CE. Luke's gospel is written 80
CE - 130 CE.
Matthew's source is Mark (he pinches the story from Mark's gospel) but he
changes bits and pieces. Matthew introduces infidelity as the only reason
for divorce. Jesus here agrees with Rabbi Shammai. Matthew's version
reflects the Torah and standard Judean view. Mathew's gospel is written
80 -100 CE.
I have just proved that DEBRA IS CORRECT! In the Markian version of Jesus'
comments on divorce Jesus tries to change the Torah by quoting the Greek
Setuagint scriptures on Genesis concerning Adam and Eve. Of course, Matthew
CONTRADICTS that version.
You who think that the New Testament is "God's word" and infallible are now
in a bind. Which is the one and only TRUE version of Jesus' views on
divorce????? Or did Jesus change his mind? (Does God change HIs mind???)
Waiting for an answer ...................
guardian Snow
> "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
>
> news:3d1ab831-2df3-4032...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 3, 7:52 am, Linda Lee <lindaleekelle...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >> It was a response to your comment: "If this is how you treat people
> >> trying to help you, I'd hate to see how you treat people you dislike".
> >> That is how.
> ...
> > Actually, My point was that the Law was in effect NOT changed and no
> > changes in the way that Adultery is defined were made.
>
> Jesus talks about divorce in Mark 9: 5-12 & Mark 10: 2-12 (which you haven't
> mentioned) & Q (Luke 16:18 ; Matthew 5:32) & Matthew 19:3-9.
>
> In Mark's version vs 9 divorce is not permitted (thus altering the Torah
> which permits divorce).
It only says that they commit adultery in Mark 10.
Mar 10:9 “Therefore what Elohim has joined together, let man not
separate.”
Mar 10:10 And in the house His taught ones asked Him about this
again.
Mar 10:11 And He said to them, “Whoever puts away his wife and marries
another commits adultery against her.
Mar 10:12 “And if a woman puts away her husband and marries another,
she commits adultery.”
It doesn't say it is "not permitted". Your making things up that
aren't written, just like you did with Mark 9 which says NOTHING about
divorce. Your rambling Mark out of desperation to protect your
girlfriend.. I get that.. we can disagree and I don't have an issue
with it.
> I have just proved that DEBRA IS CORRECT! In the Markian version of Jesus'
> comments on divorce Jesus tries to change the Torah by quoting the Greek
> Setuagint scriptures on Genesis concerning Adam and Eve. Of course, Matthew
> CONTRADICTS that version.
>
> You who think that the New Testament is "God's word" and infallible are now
> in a bind. Which is the one and only TRUE version of Jesus' views on
> divorce????? Or did Jesus change his mind? (Does God change HIs mind???)
>
> Waiting for an answer ...................
Mark, I respect that we disagree but a defiled woman in Duet. is the
same as the adulterer in the Gospels. At no point does it state
divorce is not allowed. I think with all matters of such moral
implications it's only making it clear it shouldn't be taken lightly.
Jer 3:8 “And I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding
Yisra’ĕl had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a
certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Yehuḏah did not
fear, but went and committed whoring too.
You have not convinced me of anything having changed. It's still a
sin and it still defiles the person.
Num 30:9 “But any vow of a widow or a divorced woman, by which she has
bound herself, stands against her.
That includes a vow of Marriage.
Shalom,
Snow
Debra
>
> - Show quoted text -
Will you be "celebrating Easter" then Linda?
What are your beliefs on that?
Debra
Debra
Debra
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mark...Then how did I know so much about your personal life that you
recently made public Mark?
I couldn't have known unless you told me.
So Felicity is not your wife? Mark and Felicity... with your last
name...and your actual email address?? and the same last name on your
Yahoo Messenger when you instant messaged me and asked me to be added
to your buddy list after we fought last fall...Mr. ****** I know your
last name...It is you and your Felicity... with your last name that
matches the Yahoo Messenger last name you invited me with.
So tell me...You never had or don't currently have a wife named
Felicity??
What happened to your wife Mark...and yes...they both live in a
similar area as you.
I don't want to know you...I just want to know if you lied about that
too.
I don't think it is your current address and phone number...I think it
is the address and phone number you perhaps had before your marriage
ended.
Oh yeah...and calling me Doll was never an attempt to get personal.
The facts don't line up with the current claims.
I am an evil person according to you?? You shared of your own
freewill ...Your personal history...The places you lived in
childhood...How many siblings...Their sex...One of them...Their
name...Some of your life circumstances...Places you lived in
adulthood...Some of the places you worked in adulthood...and your
profession in those places and currently...Don't tell me you never got
personal...and just "said you have family in the "US"...I know more
than that...and more than you posted publically recently.
Like I said...You said you were single...and tried to flirt...what
happened to your wife? Did she divorce you?
Debra
Mark T
>> In Mark's version vs 9 divorce is not permitted (thus altering the Torah
>> which permits divorce).
>
> It only says that they commit adultery in Mark 10.
Nope it says ....
Mar 10:9 "Therefore what Elohim has joined together, let man not
separate."
> It doesn't say it is "not permitted".
"Let man not separate" means "not permitted"
> Your (sic) making things up that aren't written
Nope. It is written ..
Mar 10:9 "Therefore what Elohim has joined together, let man not
separate."
> Mark 9 which says NOTHING about divorce.
Divorce is separation.
Mar 10:9 "Therefore what Elohim has joined together, let man not
separate."
> I have just proved that DEBRA IS CORRECT! In the Markian version of >
> Jesus' comments on divorce Jesus tries to change the Torah by quoting the
> > Greek Septuagint scriptures on Genesis concerning Adam and Eve. Of
> course, Matthew CONTRADICTS that version.
...
> At no point does it state divorce is not allowed.
Yes it does!
Mar 10:9 "Therefore what Elohim has joined together, let man not
separate."
--
saint...@hotmail.com
> "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
Nobody is in a bind based on your anal compulsive little arguments.
We are free to create G-D in our own image. We can take what we like
from scriptures and leave the rest. So, fuck you.
The only question is what works. G-D has not spoken to any Jewish
prophet for thousands of years. Jesus has not done any miracle in
public for two thousand years. Until something real emerges, all
religions are false for now. I put you on notice, Mark, you phony
fuck, that sooner or later, a greater truth will emerge, one which you
cannot deny.
cactus
In your case it's because you don't debate. All you do is pontificate
and deliver puerile ad hominems against anyone who even questions what
you assert. You show your ignorance and say "blah blah blah" when
someone tries to answer your questions. I see no point in doing
anything besides pushing your buttons because your insults mean that I
scored.
You do not live up to the standards our alleged "Zen Judaism" religion
because you flaunt your ignorance and your dishonesty. I don't think
that you could even state the tenets of Buddhism, let alone Zen
Buddhism. Then to conflate it with your cockamamie version of Judaism
is just plain ludicrous. Don't get me wrong, it can be done, but by
people who are knowledgeable of both. Your religion is more "Proufound
ignorance" than anything else.
cactus
Gotcha! You lose, you had to insult!
You are running true to form. Maybe you should actually read what I
wrote and try to understand it this time. Maybe you'll get it.
Mark T
> fuck you.
--
"Fuck you." Never understood that insult, because fucking someone is
actually really pleasant. If we're trying to be mean, we should say "unfuck
you!" - Lenny Bruce
guardian Snow
> > It only says that they commit adultery in Mark 10.
> Mar 10:9 "Therefore what Elohim has joined together, let man not
> separate."
>
> > Mark 9 which says NOTHING about divorce.
>
> Divorce is separation.
First off Mark, not to get into pettiness but thats Mark 10 not
chapter 9. Minor mistake on your part and nobody is perfect. Your
original post stated:
>>Jesus talks about divorce in Mark 9: 5-12 & Mark 10: 2-12 (which you haven't mentioned)
I didn't think it was needed to show repeats of the same issue. I was
speaking about what she has an issue with.
> > At no point does it state divorce is not allowed.
>
> Yes it does!
>
> Mar 10:9 "Therefore what Elohim has joined together, let man not
> separate."
I agree but your under the false presumption that anybody that gets
married is brought together by Elohim. While it may say "let man not
separate" it's conditional on "what Elohim has joined together". Come
on Mark, you taught English for how many years? I don't need to teach
you about conditional clauses. If thats the case, then does Elohim
"bring together" Elton John's homosexual marriage? Scriptures calls
that an abomination.
Num 30:9 “But any vow of a widow or a divorced woman, by which she has
bound herself, stands against her.
You still forgot about the verse in Numbers. I guess I need to keep
my post short because your attention span seems limited... are you
having a 60's "FLASHBACK" moment??? You're usually sharper then
this...
Num 30:2 “When a man vows a vow to יהוה, or swears an oath to bind
himself by some agreement, he does not break his word, he does
according to all that comes out of his mouth.
Num 30:3 “Or if a woman vows a vow to יהוה, and binds herself by some
agreement while in her father’s house in her youth,
Num 30:4 and her father hears her vow and the agreement by which she
has bound herself, and her father has kept silent towards her, then
all her vows shall stand, and every agreement with which she has bound
herself stands.
If they break the vow they commit adultery. It's Torah based. Maybe
try the dictionary for help...
Adultery
ADUL'TERY, n. [L. adulterium. See Adulterate.]
1. Violation of the marriage bed; a crime, or a civil injury, which
introduces, or may introduce, into a family, a spurious offspring.
2. In a scriptural sense, all manner of lewdness or unchastity, as in
the seventh commandment.
3. In scripture, idolatry, or apostasy from the true God. Jer 3.
Shalom,
Snow
Argument is meant to reveal the truth, not to create it.
Edward de Bono
guardian Snow
Did you ever wonder why it is Christian tradition that the Father give
the bride away?
Num 30:2 “When a man vows a vow to יהוה, or swears an oath to bind
himself by some agreement, he does not break his word, he does
according to all that comes out of his mouth.
Num 30:3 “Or if a woman vows a vow to יהוה, and binds herself by some
agreement while in her father’s house in her youth,
Num 30:4 and her father hears her vow and the agreement by which she
has bound herself, and her father has kept silent towards her, then
all her vows shall stand, and every agreement with which she has bound
herself stands.
It's based on the Torah. The Husband and Wife swear a vow before the
Father so that he can approve of the marriage based on these passages
in the Torah. If you break your vows you are committing adultery with
any other man that you marry when you say, "till death do you part".
Marriage is and should be a life long commitment and the breaking of
those vows should never be taken lightly.
Mal 2:16 “For I hate divorce,” said יהוה Elohim of Yisra’ĕl, “and the
one who covers his garment with cruelty,” said יהוה of hosts. “So you
shall guard your spirit, and do not act treacherously.”
While Elohim hates divorce, even he acknowledges that sometimes there
is a need for it by way of the prophets he told us the same message
the Messiah taught...
Jer 3:8 “And I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding
Yisra’ĕl had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a
certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Yehuḏah did not
fear, but went and committed whoring too.
Jer 3:9 “And it came to be, through her frivolous whoring, that she
defiled the land and committed adultery with stones and wood.
Shalom,
Snow
If you never change your mind, why have one?
Edward de Bono
Debra
And in Torah the definition is a man who sleeps with an already
married woman.
Debra
Debra
Have you ever investigated the Hebrew Marriage Customs?
Debra
Debra
> On Mar 3, 12:29 am, "Azure Kite" <hanaram...@archangels.mil> wrote:
>
> > The poster Mary Hogan seems to be very much in tune.
>
> and very cleaver. �I think she is a fine lady with high moral
> standards and excellent debating skills. �I wouldn't want to be on her
> bad side.
>
> Shalom,
>
> Snow
>
> Using the power of decision gives you the capacity to get past any
> excuse to change any and every part of your life in an instant.
> Tony Robbins
Mark says:
> I'd say with my experience speaking with her, she's as sharp as a tack
> and very cleaver. I think she is a fine lady with high moral
> standards and excellent debating skills. I wouldn't want to be on her
> bad side.
Debra Replies
She also follows Judaism...and does not believe in "J" as she calls
him from the NT...she would be in agreement that he fails the test of
a prophet in Deuteronomy...Meaning he did not teach Torah perfectly as
it is written in the TaNaKH.
Debra
Debra
> "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
>
>
> > On Feb 29, 8:01 pm, "Mark T" <snailmail@letterbox0000029> wrote:
>
> >> Debra does not need your help. �You need help from Debra.
>
> > I did my best to faithfully answer the question in the way I see it
> > and respectfully disagree with you Mark.
> > I don't have a problem with agreeing to disagree with you because I do
> > respect you.
>
>
>
>
> > course of action is that I respect your faith and attempt to build
> > each other so that we are better people. �Ultimately if faith doesn't
> > make us better people then what good is it?
>
> > You take care Mark and I look forward to buying you a coffee.
>
> > Shalom,
>
> > Snow
>
> > The way we communicate with others and with ourselves ultimately
> > determines the quality of our lives.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mark says:
guardian Snow
Unlike you I have respect for other peoples beliefs. Your major
problem is that because you can't support your own lies, you make the
issue about me. The only thing I'd be interested in knowing is how
much you spoke to the person on yahoo and what information the two of
you shared? I think it's interesting that you believe you've talked
to me on yahoo at any time. I didn't make this a personal issue and
so I don't see why you think you have the right to ask me personal
questions on the usenet. If I wouldn't tell you much details in
private email, I certainly wouldn't be discussing my private life with
you here.
You really have no class or respect. I don't think you rate any
answers.
Back to the black list for you,
Snow
Unhappiness is best defined as the difference between our talents and
our expectations.
Edward de Bono
guardian Snow
> I wonder if Mark will really buy Mark a coffee...If he will follow
> through.
>
> Debra
Thompson Twins, The - Sister Of Mercy Lyrics
She lives in a big white house
The rooms are lemon and she's devoted to life
of keeping this house just right, ooh, ooh
The weekends are perfectly nice ooh, ooh
And she doesn't talk when he comes home at night
Twenty five years she's just the same
She's a lonely woman, quiet in her ways
Then he comes home one night
She kills him with a knife
Now she's the one who's a living in paradise
(Sister of mercy) No sister of mercy
Oh don't cry for me
(sister of mercy) No sister of mercy
It's all alright for me
Now she sits in a big white chair
In a room that's not so different to the one back there
She turns her face to the light
But she is blinded by her life
You can hear her cry alone at night
(Sister of mercy) No sister of mercy
Oh don't cry for me
(sister of mercy) No sister of mercy
So have mercy on that woman you don't know the way it's been
You don't know the trouble her eyes have seen
Can you feel the kiss of life when you come home at night?
Well, you better not turn your back on a paradise
(Sister of mercy) No sister of mercy
Oh don't cry for me
(sister of mercy) No sister of mercy
Sister of mercy (Sister of mercy)
Sister of mercy oh, oh
Sister of mercy (Sister of mercy)
Sister of mercy oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
(Sister of mercy) No sister of mercy
Oh don't cry for me
(sister of mercy) No sister of mercy
(Sister of mercy) No sister of mercy
Oh don't cry for me
(sister of mercy) No sister of mercy
http://thompson-twins-the-sister-of-mercy-lyrics-mp3.kohit.net/_/178638
Debra
>
> - Show quoted text -
If you had respect for other's beliefs...You wouldn't call them names
or Satan or child of Satan or try to prove your truth with verses as
you do...Using the word respect and showing respect are two different
things...As Mordecai says...If word and actions do not agree...believe
actions.
And you haven't answered...What happened to your wife Mark?
Debra
Debra
And you shared that music why? With the quote about buying coffee...I
am looking forward to hearing that you actually took the time to trot
across whatever part of Australia to buy Mark that coffee because you
said you would...You change what you say all the time...So I am
curious to know if Mark will really get that coffee Mark.
If that song is supposed to reflect my life...It doesn't.
Debra
guardian Snow
STALKER ALERT PLEASE GO BOTHER SOMEBODY WHO CARES WHAT YOU SAY
guardian Snow
CLEARLY THIS ISSUE BOTHERS YOU BECAUSE YOUR A WHORE. FEEL GUILT
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T FACE UP TO THE FACTS YOU'VE ALREADY COMMITTED
ADULTERY IN YOUR HEART?
Debra
>
> - Show quoted text -
You know that is irony...When I first joined your group...You called
your ex girlfriend of ten years ago a "WHORE" and proceeded to tell me
about the situation...Who taught you to disrespect women Mark?
Somebody did... Because I have seen you call the ones you cared about
such things...Interesting.
Calling people deragatory names may be an attempt to not answer
questions that are too hard for you to answer with truth...It bothers
me because you lie all the time...and speak in hypocrisy...and can't
prove your point...So you arrogantly come out on top of a
situation...Apparently the subject of your former wife is a very touch
one.
And your explanation about Jesus/Yeshua fell short of the truth when
you compare his teaching to Torah.
You misinterpreted it.
Debra
Debra
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have not committed "adultery" in my heart...and I have not coveted
another's husband... and there is no such thing as committing
"adultery" in your heart...I have not slept with another man while
married...No adultery committed...No violation of the Torah's
definition of adultery by me.
How about you...Did you commit adultery...Did you sleep with another's
wife? No...You just talked about it when you tried to smear me as you
said you would, before saying that you thought I wanted to "commit
wicked adultery with you after I am divorced"...You have always had an
interesting insight on things Mark...and never the reality either.
You need to correct your definition of what adultery is according to
the way YHWH himself spelled it out.
Debra
saint...@hotmail.com
>
> You need to correct your definition of what adultery is according to
> the way YHWH himself spelled it out.
>
> Debra
YHWH himself never spelled anything out. You take His name in vain.
You don't know Him or anything about Him. Even Moses could not see
His face.
Debra
> Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is
> the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.
> Marie Curie
>
> > The question you are not answering Linda...Is the one where Jesus/
> > Yeshua changes the definition of adultery and the rules for divorce
> > and remarriage.
>
> > Debra
>
> You seem to be focused on this is as a personal issue but let's not
> speak to that. Analyze this from the perspective of outside the box.
>
> Exo 20:14 “You do not commit adultery.
>
> Lev 20:10 ‘And a man who commits adultery with the wife of another
> man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour: the
> adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.
>
> Pretty harsh Law that you and I have earned DEATH. Adultery isn't just
> limited to husband and wife relationships.
>
> Exo 4:26 So He let him go. Then she said, “You are a bridegroom of
> blood,” because of the circumcision.
>
> We can commit spiritual adultery also when we follow after false gods.
> So Adultery does have a wider meaning then just marriage but my very
> literal brothers tend to see only in the physical aspects.
>
> So how does the Good News of יהושע Messiah, the Son of Elohim change
> this?
>
> Mat 5:27 “You heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not
> commit adultery.’
> for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
>
> The Messiah explains a wider definition of Adultery that I find is
> personally almost impossible to follow. I've often admired a
> beautiful lady and by these terms I have committed adultery many times
> and I myself am guilty of sin. I confess this here in a forum that is
> filled with skeptic's not because I'm proud of the fact but because
> it's the truth.
>
> 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to
> forgive us the sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
>
> But we know that your issues go deeper then this because of the quote
> by the Messiah:
>
> Mat 5:32 “But I say to you that whoever puts away his wife, except for
> a woman who has been put away commits adultery. .
>
> And so we compare this to Dt. 24:1:
>
> Deu 24:1 “When a man takes a wife and shall marry her, then it shall
> be, if she finds no favour in his eyes because he has found a matter
> of uncoveredness in her, and he shall write her a certificate of
> divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of his house,
> Deu 24:2 and if she left his house and went and became another man’s
> wife,
> Deu 24:3 and the latter husband shall hate her and write her a
> certificate of divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of
> his house, or when the latter husband dies who took her to be his
> wife,
> Deu 24:4 then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to
> take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled, for that
> would be an abomination before יהוה. And do not bring sin on the land
> which יהוה your Elohim is giving you as an inheritance.
>
> commit adultery. It says that she has been "defiled". Yet, defiled
> is a condition of not pure and righteous and so what we see is that
> the two do agree.
>
> The Good News is:
>
> Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy,
> and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but
> sinners to repentance.
>
> You have mercy and if your unhappy in your current situation then know
> this fact:
>
> Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy
> shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
> shall not be forgiven unto men.
>
> Now you have to make up your own heart on what reasons you have for
> not being happy in your relationship and ask yourself first if the log
> is in your own eye before you judge the one you love.
>
> Mar 7:15 “There is no matter that enters a man from outside which is
> able to defile him, but it is what comes out of him that defiles the
> man.
> Mar 7:16 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
>
> But I do know this, you have been set free.
>
> Joh 8:31 So יהושע said to those Yehuḏim who believed Him, “If you
> stay in My Word, you are truly My taught ones,
> Joh 8:32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you
> free.”
> Joh 8:33 They answered Him, “We are the seed of Aḇraham, and have
> been servants to no one at any time. How do you say, ‘You shall become
> free’?”
> Joh 8:34 יהושע answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone
> doing sin is a servant of sin.
>
> So don't continue to be a servant of sin. If it's your desire to serve
> Elohim in the best possible fashion, then rededicate your life to and
> move on. Ultimately you’ve already committed adultery spiritually and
> in your heart. Why live in denial and continue to sin? Either fix
> your current situation by recommitting or if you find that unbearable,
> be honest with yourself first and then get a divorce.
>
> Mat 6:24 “No one is able to serve two masters, for either he shall
> hate the one and love the other, or else he shall cleave to the one
> and despise the other. You are not able to serve Elohim and mammon.
>
> The best servant is one that is happy to serve and not one that serves
> with bitterness because it’s the law and the same goes for a wife, the
> two are intertwined. Don’t stay in a relationship that you despise
> just because you believe it’s a sin to leave, Your anger fuels a much
> deeper sin.
>
> Psa 139:21 O יהוה, do I not hate them, who hate You? And do I not
> loathe those who rise up against You?
> Psa 139:22 With a complete hatred I hate them; They have become my
> enemies.
> Psa 139:23 Search me, O Ěl, and know my heart; Try me, and know my
> thoughts;
> Psa 139:24 And see if an idolatrous way is in me, And lead me in the
> way everlasting.
>
> Shalom,
> Snow
>
> Portions of this post are used from ISR (The Scriptures +1998) fromhttp://www.isr-messianic.org/
>
> Sometimes the situation is only a problem because it is looked at in a
> certain way. Looked at in another way, the right course of action may
> be so obvious that the problem no longer exists.
> Edward de Bono
Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is
the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.
Marie Curie
Madam Marie Curie must not know we are to FEAR G-D...THE BEGINNING OF
KNOWLEDGE.
http://www.breslov.com/bible/Proverbs1.htm#1
JPS TANAKH
MISHLEI
(Book of Proverbs)
Chapter 1 verse 7
7
The fear of HaShem is the beginning of knowledge; but the foolish
despise wisdom and discipline.
guardian Snow
Don't try to make it a personal issue and figure out that I don't want
you stalking me again. I was trying to help you and repay me by
slandering me. You are a spiritual whore and I stand by that because
I know what you said and thats the end of it liar. I remind you again
that you don't know anything about me and you have no right to ask
about my personal life when I've done nothing of the kind to you
WHORE.
P.S. If you think because I called you "Doll" at one point 6 MONTHS
AGO that I was coming on to you.. your pathetic. Your a sick little
stalker and you should just return to not posting to me again.
guardian Snow
But the fact still remains that you aren't going to because your goal
is to drive people insane. You want people to verbally abuse you
whore. You know your an evil person and you want me to confirm it.
I'm telling you that your a wicked seed that refuses to stop stalking
people. You like abuse and thats why you married an abusive husband
and you stalk people until they do abuse you.
Debra
>
> - Show quoted text -
I am not a whore...or a spiritual whore...you have to be putting other
gods before YHWH to be in spiritual adultery...I know only what you
told me about yourself... Quite a bit of infomation Mark...2
times...not one(the second time was AFTER I told you I was
married)...and when do men normally call people doll? On a black and
white movie? I remind you again that I only know what you shared with
me about your personal life...I have no right to ask
you...Perhaps...But I ask out of curiousity because you said you were
a single man...Perhaps your wife, if you are not single needs to know
about your behavior? That is if she is not your exwife.
Debra
Debra
Are you saying you are an abusive man...Interesting.
Debra
saint...@hotmail.com
I think he is rather suggesting (perhaps unconsciously) that your G-d
is an abuser, par excellance. If you had a husband (and G-d is often
referred to as a husband) who behaved like that, you would divorce him
in a heartbeat, UNLESS you are a dead-on masochist who loves abuse.
guardian Snow
Hardly Debra. What I am saying is that you want to push people until
they do abuse you. Rather then just leaving people to disagree, you
poke every last nerve until you get the desired reaction. Then you
can play the victim and cry foul and that suites your purpose.
Snow
It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our
system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a Free
Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even of
his personal services to the defense of it.
George Washington
Linda Lee
Abusive people abuse people. Period. You also had the choice to walk
away.
guardian Snow
> Abusive people abuse people. Period. You also had the choice to walk
> away.
I initiated this thread in the hopes of helping Debra. She's the one
who thinks it's alright to go around asking on the internet about
peoples personal life. At this stage, I don't even know why your
still posting to me.
Take care and follow your own advice, walk away.
Shalom,
Snow
Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to
light.
George Washington
Linda Lee
LOL. I like your quote and have decided to act on it and take the
pains to see the truth is brought to light.
Why am I still posting to you? Because you're being dishonest. You
claim that you initiated this thread (allegedly) for the purpose of
'helping' Debra. But when she responded to you in this thread you said
you were opening especially for her, you accused her of stalking you
again (??!!), and called her a whore half a dozen times. Do you really
expect people to fall for your claim that you were 'helping'? You
arranged for her to post to you, and when she did, you attacked and
attacked. Do you really expect people to believe you're innocently
being 'stalked'? Not believable. You're being extremely dishonest,
manipulative, and abusive.
"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people
all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time'. -
Abraham Lincoln
Debra
You choose not to answer simple questions...How you react...You
choose.
Debra
Debra
You don't need to help me...You need to read Torah and to get help
from YHWH Himself.
Debra
guardian Snow
> You choose not to answer simple questions...How you react...You
> choose.
Both of you have short memories. A simple question?
Debra posted in this thread:
That is a flat out lie...Would you like me to begin posting all of the
emails again that I have permission to post?
You told me you were single...and tried to flirt with me...and I told
you I was married...
What happened with your wife?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I told her clearly my personal life is none of her business. I did
not make this personal, she did. I didn't mention any of her personal
situation, I answered the questions she asked in relation to divorce.
When I asked her several times not to ask me personal questions on the
internet and that she had no right to persue such questions or
allegations as such:
I have revoked that permission (posting my email to you) due to
abuse. I see that once again you are taking to crossing the line and
abusing my attempt to help you by abusing me. Besides, you've already
done that (posting my email to you).
Somehow I skipped past this post but your claim is interesting to me.
I would point out that first off, you don't know my address as I NEVER
give that information out via internet as part of our security
prohibition. I never post any information that is personal outside of
the fact that I have a family that resides in the United States.
I've made every attempt to not get personal with you Debra and only
speak in general terms. You have no right to ask me about my personal
life or get personal with me. It shows what a deprived evil person
you are. How pathetic are you?
> So Mark...I was reading online...and I came across this Baptist
> Website where you posted with a woman's name your address phone
> number, etc and your email address...
As to the use of my email address.. it wouldn't be the first time that
somebody has copied me and fraudulently posted as me. You are truly a
sick individual and beyond my help. At this point I'd say it's best
that we discontinue speaking again... back to the black list for you.
Since clearly I am not a Baptist, your site is obviously a fraud but
you assumed it was correct. You don't know my phone number or my
physical address and I never give that information out. The closest I
ever say is that I am in Victoria for security issues.
You don't know me and you never will. Get over me, I'm not interested
in you. I'm sorry to have attempted to help you.
Snow
The closer the source of light is to a subject, the broader the beams
are.
Conrad Hall
---------------------------------------------
The two of you have such short memories.. I have to repost it to
remind you. You are both unable to remember simple facts.
Snow
Worry is the interest paid by those who borrow trouble.
George Washington
guardian Snow
> Why am I still posting to you?
Linda, you wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and bit you in the
ass. You run around posting to me without any idea what your talking
about just because you have issues with Apostle Paul. Badger away, I
don't care because I understand this:
You don't know what I believe and you fail to understand what I'm
about.
Snow
To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of
preserving peace.
George Washington
Linda Lee
I agree that Debra is not acting in a righteous manner. But neither
are you. You two could keep this private, but you prefer to act it out
here. You're both doing a great job of making **yourselves** look bad
and worthy of being totally ignored regarding any opinions either of
you post about the Scriptures.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy,
and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but ****
sinners to repentance.****
I know exactly what you're about; you've decided you're a sinner so
you're allowed to sin (acknowledging the Messiah came to call sinners,
but ignoring he said he came to call them to repentance); you've
decided the truth is divisive and that exposing any lies is divisive
to the church, so you're promoting the Pauline lie.
You started out here posting about the paganism in Christianity; you
learned that Paul was the source of that paganism; then you decided,
considering its source, the paganism was okay after all. You do not
preach the word of God; you preach the lie of Paul, and you do so just
as you've done with Matt. 9:13 above; you take part of a sentence to
'prove' your point and ignore everything else. Sinners need to repent
is the focus of that verse; not the Messiah only likes sinners.
guardian Snow
> You do not
> preach the word of God; you preach the lie of Paul, and you do so just
> as you've done with Matt. 9:13 above; you take part of a sentence to
> 'prove' your point and ignore everything else. Sinners need to repent
> is the focus of that verse; not the Messiah only likes sinners.
Mat 9:12 And יהושע hearing this, said to them, “Those who are strong
have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
Mat 9:13 “But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and
not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance,
but sinners.”
I take it then you don't need the Messiah. You should stop telling me
what it is I speak of when you fail to understand. You won't of
course because your a person that preaches against Paul and then
mimics his behavior.
I have to give Paul more credit then you. At least he knew to confess
his sins.
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all, for we have
previously accused both Yehuḏim and Greeks that they are all under
sin.
How would you like it if people started asking you for your personal
details on the internet?
How about your husband? What kind of garbage is that to ask somebody?
Linda Lee
> On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Linda Lee <li...@hipstargraphics.com> wrote:
>
> > You do not
> > preach the word of God; you preach the lie of Paul, and you do so just
> > as you've done with Matt. 9:13 above; you take part of a sentence to
> > 'prove' your point and ignore everything else. Sinners need to repent
> > is the focus of that verse; not the Messiah only likes sinners.
>
> Mat 9:12 And יהושע hearing this, said to them, “Those who are strong
> have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
> Mat 9:13 “But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and
> not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance,
> but sinners.”
>
> I take it then you don't need the Messiah.
A ludicrous comment intended to incite. It is you who needs Paul's
interpretations in addition to the Messiah's teachings and words. The
Messiah's teachings are good enough for me, and they **should be good
enough for any Christian**.
> You should stop telling me
> what it is I speak of when you fail to understand. You won't of
> course because your a person that preaches against Paul and then
> mimics his behavior.
>
> I have to give Paul more credit then you. At least he knew to confess
> his sins.
>
> Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all, for we have
> previously accused both Yehuḏim and Greeks that they are all under
> sin.
>
> How would you like it if people started asking you for your personal
> details on the internet?
>
> How about your husband? What kind of garbage is that to ask somebody?
Paul never confessed his own sins; he simply said both Jews and
Gentiles were 'under sin'. Nowhere does he repent or confess; in fact,
he says he is "blameless".
When I start preaching a lie or show up with a sword and insist you
accept me as one who speaks for God, then you can rightfully accuse me
of 'acting like Paul'. That accusation's especially laughable since
YOU act like Paul preaching the Pauline lie.
Would I mind if people asked me personal questions on the Internet?
No. But then I wouldn't answer them if I didn't feel like it. I don't
think it is at all wise, however, to reveal one's identity and/or
location on the Internet. Children are taught not to do so, and it
isn't any safer for an adult.
And you aren't the only person here being followed around from thread
to thread by someone who constantly criticizes you. Face it - that is
the risk you take when you post publicly, and it won't end if Debra
stops because someone else will always come along who's taken notice
of your posts. Look at it this way - at least someone's reading them.
And when people criticize my stance on Paul, it justifies me answering
and criticizing him further - even more than I feel like doing.
saint...@hotmail.com
>
> A ludicrous comment intended to incite. It is you who needs Paul's
> interpretations in addition to the Messiah's teachings and words. The
> Messiah's teachings are good enough for me, and they **should be good
> enough for any Christian**.
NO! You have to understand Messiah's teaching, and it is more than
could ever be written in words. That is the mistake of the Pharisees
and modern Jews in general: they idolize a bunch of words in their
counterfeit Torah. If you idolize the new testament in the same way,
you are no better than them.
"10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto
them in parables?" (KJV)
Jesus Explains Why He Spoke in Parables
Here is how Jesus answered them as recorded in Matthew 13:11-15:
"11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to
know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not
given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more
abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even
that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not;
and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By
hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall
see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of
hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should
see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand
with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal
them." (KJV)
Linda Lee
So why did the Messiah bother preaching the parables to the multitudes
at all? To mess with their minds? No, because on a subconscious level
(in their spirit) they received what he knew their conscious minds
would reject.
And why would they reject what they subconsiously knew would heal them
and convert them back to worship of God? Because they were demonized.
saint...@hotmail.com
I don't think you get the gist of this. What Jesus said is that there
is much more to knowledge of G-D than can be put into a scripture like
the Bible. The Bible is filled with worldly events and ordinary
verbal descriptions of worldly events, whereas the Kingdom of God is
otherworldly. Not everyone even has the type of imagination that can
grasp spiritual knowledge. It is deep philosophy and deep science.
It is post-post-post graduate studies compared to academic knowledge.
Not everyone is qualified to pursue it. But neither is there any kind
of rigid qualification like being 40 years old, as the Pharisee-like
rabbis teach. Jesus spoke in parables to try to win over, in
conjunction with his kind miracles, the people who could not pursue
the deep spiritual knowledge. There was nothing unkind in this,
except that he really left almost everyone in dark as to what was
really going on. Even the brightest of mortals have not figured it
out yet. That is why I have been sent.
Mark T
> I would point out that first off, you don't know my address as I NEVER
> give that information out via internet as part of our security
> prohibition. I never post any information that is personal outside of
> the fact that I have a family that resides in the United States
....
> You don't know my phone number or my
> physical address and I never give that information out. The closest I
> ever say is that I am in Victoria for security issues.
Perfectly reasonable for both your security and the security of our region -
The Land of Oz - Down Under.
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
PASTOR DALE K WHANGKE
http://dalekwhangke.blogspot.com/
Wyrst Pentacostal Church
Debra
> "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
> > I would point out that first off, you don't know my address as I NEVER
> > give that information out via internet as part of our security
> > prohibition. I never post any information that is personal outside of
> > the fact that I have a family that resides in the United States
> ....
> > You don't know my phone number or my
> > physical address and I never give that information out. �The closest I
> > ever say is that I am in Victoria for security issues.
>
> Perfectly reasonable for both your security and the security of our region -
> The Land of Oz - Down Under.
>
> --
>
> MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 formathttp://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
>
> - a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
> fundamentalism.
>
> PASTOR DALE K WHANGKEhttp://dalekwhangke.blogspot.com/
> Wyrst Pentacostal Church
And he did post name and address on a theological site once upon a
time...So go figure.
Debra
Linda Lee
So what? Who cares? So he accidentally posted something he should not
have. You're way too interested in his personal life (both of you
are). The way you both act only serves to make anyone who is aware of
that reluctant to tell you anything. I don't even know what to label
it - intrusive, rude, mean??
guardian Snow
> So what? Who cares? So he accidentally posted something he should not
> have. You're way too interested in his personal life (both of you
> are). The way you both act only serves to make anyone who is aware of
> that reluctant to tell you anything. I don't even know what to label
> it - intrusive, rude, mean??
At least in this one respect you do understand why I'm upset at this
person trying to dig into my personal life as if it were her
business. Look Linda, I realize that we do have issues that will go
unresolved but I also know you can be a reasonable person. I wish we
could agree on everything but then, wouldn't that be boring? :)
Just realize that I'll do my best to treat you with respect and sorry
if I'm lacking at times. Considering that we will continue to
disagree and I understand this... I don't know, it would be nice to
explain except to say that all we can do is put our faith in יהוה
your Elohim and trust that eventually if our hearts our open, he will
lead us.
I keep asking for wisdom and I hope you find some comfort in that.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of Elohim, who gives
to all generously and without reproach, and it shall be given to him.
Shalom,
Snow
When you encounter difficulties and contradictions, do not try to
break them, but bend them with gentleness and time.
Saint Francis de Sales
P.S. To that other person.... I had no intention to get personal with
you and my original topic wasn't meant to draw up past issues. It was
my honest intention to attempt to help you and I know all to well that
you have no desire for it. To that end, this is a dead issue in the
aspect that no longer will I read or reply to you.
Isa 52:2 Shake yourself from the dust, arise, and sit down, O
Yerushalayim. Loose yourself from the bonds of your neck, O captive
daughter of Tsiyon!
Debra
There is a verse somewhere about self deception Mark...Go back...Read
what you wrote in all that communication after I joined that group of
yours...and then acknowledge the truth that you did try to "get
personal"...
And yes...the topic was meant to be hurtful..and to smear me...thing
is...Your definition is not YHWH's as you have said regarding
adultery...So if Torah is truth and eternal...and it is...Then you
have made a judgment mistake in "trying to help me".
Debra
Terry Cross
> "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
> > you, I'd hate to see how you treat people you dislike.
>
> Debra does not need your help.
>
> You need help from Debra.
>
> I have just proved that DEBRA IS CORRECT! In the Markian version of Jesus'
> comments on divorce Jesus tries to change the Torah by quoting the Greek
> Setuagint scriptures on Genesis concerning Adam and Eve. Of course, Matthew
> CONTRADICTS that version.
>
> You who think that the New Testament is "God's word" and infallible are now
> in a bind. Which is the one and only TRUE version of Jesus' views on
> divorce????? Or did Jesus change his mind? (Does God change HIs mind???)
>
> Waiting for an answer ...................
Do you allege that Jesus spoke on the subject of divorce only once?
Maybe you would like to illuminate the differences you find so
outstanding.
The most authentic manuscript of the Torah is the Septuagint, of which
we have a copy from the Second Century. In contrast, the "Hebrew"
version was manually copied so many times from then until the Tenth
Century Masoretic text, the Hebrew version is not reliable. And it
certainly cannot gainsay the Septuagint.
TCross
Linda Lee
>
> - Show quoted text -
I too have heard the Septuagint is more accurate than the Masoretic
text of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Also if you noticed, recently Mark T quoted John 1:1 in the thread:
John 1 - Scholars Version, providing a very crappy version, which is
highly inaccurate and adds words that aren't in the Greek versions of
the text and rearranges it at will. Those who have rejected God as
their Saviour hate John 1:1.
John 1:1
the New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: In the beginning was
the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.
(ASV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
(DRB) In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and
the Word was God.
(ISV) In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
(KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
(KJV+) In1722 the beginning746 was2258 the3588 Word,3056 and2532
the3588 Word3056 was2258 with4314 God,2316 and2532 the3588 Word3056
was2258 God.2316
(KJVA) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
(KJVR) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
(LITV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
(The Scriptures 1998+) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.
(YLT) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God;
Debra
Rather...Showing your character...Posing as a single person or not?
Debra
Mark T
:
>> I have just proved that DEBRA IS CORRECT! In the Markian version of
>> Jesus'
>> comments on divorce Jesus tries to change the Torah by quoting the Greek
>> Setuagint scriptures on Genesis concerning Adam and Eve. Of course,
>> Matthew
>> CONTRADICTS that version.
>>
>> You who think that the New Testament is "God's word" and infallible are
>> now
>> in a bind. Which is the one and only TRUE version of Jesus' views on
>> divorce????? Or did Jesus change his mind? (Does God change HIs mind???)
>>
>> Waiting for an answer ...................
>
> Do you allege that Jesus spoke on the subject of divorce only once?
> Maybe you would like to illuminate the differences you find so
> outstanding.
Mark and Matthew CONTRADICT each other Learn English!
Which is the one and only TRUE version of Jesus' views on divorce????? Or
did Jesus change his mind? (Does God change HIs mind???)
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
PASTOR DALE K WHANGKE
Mark T
> Also if you noticed, recently Mark T quoted John 1:1 in the thread:
> John 1 - Scholars Version, providing a very crappy version
Oh, so scholars are crappy?
--
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES OF A CHRISTUS OBNOXIUM
... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist:
'Firstly, a fundamentalist has a very strong emphasis on the inerrancy of
the Bible, and believes in the absence from it of any sort of error.
Two, a strong hostility to modern theology and to the method, results and
implications of modern critical study of the Bible.
And three, an assurance that those who do not share their religious
viewpoint are not really true Christians at all.'
Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
Linda Lee
> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
> > Also if you noticed, recently Mark T quoted John 1:1 in the thread:
> > John 1 - Scholars Version, providing a very crappy version
>
> Oh, so scholars are crappy?
>
Give it up Mark. These scholars obviously have your own agenda in
mind, which is to deny the deity of Christ. They have no excuse for
adding words to the original text nor for rearranging it to suit their
supposition.
There is no word meaning 'wisdom' in John 1:1, and no other versions
support that there is. The Greek text translated as is: "In the
beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the
Word". Sorry. Now you could perhaps contend that the Word was the
Scriptures and not the Messiah, but then there is John 1:14 which
negates that: John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among
us" which the Greek text has as: And the word became flesh and lived
among us.
John 1:14
(ASV) And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld
his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of
grace and truth.
(DRB) And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his
glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full
of grace and truth.
(ISV) The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. We gazed on his
glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father's unique Son, full
of grace and truth.
(KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld
his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of
grace and truth.
(KJV+) And2532 the3588 Word3056 was made1096 flesh,4561 and2532
dwelt4637 among1722 us,2254 (and2532 we beheld2300 his846 glory,1391
the glory1391 as5613 of the only begotten3439 of3844 the Father,)3962
full4134 of grace5485 and2532 truth.225
(KJVA) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
(KJVR) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
(LITV - Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) And the Word became
flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of
an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth.
(The Scriptures 1998+) And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent1
among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of
a father, complete in favour and truth. Footnote: 1An indication that
His birth was during the Festival of Booths.
(YLT - Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) And the Word
became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory,
glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
You used to just deny the Gospel of John, now you're ignoring that
tactic in favor of your new found corrupted version of John. By the
way, if they're so scholarly, why didn't they just delete John? They
do anything else they please.
Linda Lee
>
> - Show quoted text -
You seem ignorant of the fact that you're revealing your own
character, or you just don't care as it's necessary in order to
persecute. You act very evil, Debra, due to hatred of the Messiah and
his believers, most likely.
Linda Lee
>
> - Show quoted text -
Actually Debra Snow told me the facts behind his marriage and
initially posting as Mark and Felicity, and I'm tempted to tell you to
shut you up. But it's obviously not personal information you can be
trusted with. You're nosy, make assumptions with no evidence, and then
issue judgment and endless false witness. No wonder you don't want to
follow the Messiah.
Linda Lee
> [paraphrase] blah, blah, blah, Snow is bad; he quotes song lyrics and quotes secular writers writing on something other than scripture
I notice you don't criticize your fellow unbeliever Mark T for posting
his music lyrics (and his quotes of Peter Cameron, etc), hypocrite.
I'd ask why not, but I already know.
Terry Cross
> "Terry Cross" <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> :
>
>
>
> >> I have just proved that DEBRA IS CORRECT! In the Markian version of
> >> Jesus'
> >> comments on divorce Jesus tries to change the Torah by quoting the Greek
> >> Setuagint scriptures on Genesis concerning Adam and Eve. Of course,
> >> Matthew
> >> CONTRADICTS that version.
>
> >> You who think that the New Testament is "God's word" and infallible are
> >> now
> >> in a bind. Which is the one and only TRUE version of Jesus' views on
> >> divorce????? Or did Jesus change his mind? (Does God change HIs mind???)
>
> >> Waiting for an answer ...................
>
> > Do you allege that Jesus spoke on the subject of divorce only once?
> > Maybe you would like to illuminate the differences you find so
> > outstanding.
>
> Mark and Matthew CONTRADICT each other Learn English!
>
> Which is the one and only TRUE version of Jesus' views on divorce????? Or
> did Jesus change his mind? (Does God change HIs mind???)
OK, scholar, you tell us the difference. You have the mike now. Tell
us your great disproof of the preachings of Jesus.
Mark 10
2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a
man to put away his wife? tempting him.
3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
4And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your
heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave
to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain,
but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and
marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to
another, she committeth adultery.
Matthew 5
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give
her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving
for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and
whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
TCross