Notzrim, are they christians?
Yeshiah Zalman
Rabbi Parachia I believe. quite Some before The church thinks.
HE was one of many false messiahs for the next 100 years and
considered himself "the branch". Hence the term. His followers
were called notzrim. And when the romans amalgamated the Yeshu
stories (yes more than one Yeshu in Talmud). They got the term
passed on. See excerpt below!
Yeshiah "The Torah Scrolls" torahscroll.com | co.il
> Without my Shteinzaltz in front of me, I won't swear that the word was
> originally "notzrim", or even that the intent was to refer to Christians.
> All I really recall is that the censor thought so. It stuck in my head
> because this may be a source text for how to dispose of copies of the "Old
> Testament".
EXCERPT THE MYTH by Hayyim ben Yehoshua
If Jesus was not an historical person, where did the whole New Testament story
come from in the first place? The Hebrew name for Christians has always been
Notzrim. This name is derived from the Hebrew word neitzer, which means a shoot
or sprout--an obvious Messianic symbol. There were already people called
Notzrim at the time of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah (c. 100 B.C.E.). Although
modern Christians claim that Christianity only started in the first century
C.E., it is clear that the first century Christians in Israel considered
themselves to be a continuation of the Notzri movement which had been in
existence for about 150 years. One of the most notorious Notzrim was Yeishu ben
Pandeira, also known as Yeishu ha-Notzri. Talmudic scholars have always
maintained that the story of Jesus began with Yeishu. The Hebrew name for Jesus
has always been Yeishu and the Hebrew for "Jesus the Nazarene" has always been
"Yeishu ha-Notzri." (The name Yeishu is a shortened form of the name Yeishua,
not Yehoshua.) It is important to note that Yeishu ha-Notzri is not an
historical Jesus since modern Christianity denies any connection between Jesus
and Yeishu and moreover, parts of the Jesus myth are based on other historical
people besides Yeishu.
We know very little about Yeishu ha-Notzri. All modern works that mention him
are based on information taken from the Tosefta and the Baraitas - writings
made at the same time as the Mishna but not contained in it. Because the
historical information concerning Yeishu is so damaging to Christianity, most
Christian authors (and even some Jewish ones) have tried to discredit this
information and have invented many ingenious arguments to explain it away. Many
of their arguments are based on misunderstandings and misquotations of the
Baraitas and in order to get an accurate picture of Yeishu one should ignore
Christian authors and examine the Baraitas directly.
The skimpy information contained in the Baraitas is as follows: Rabbi Yehoshua
ben Perachyah once repelled Yeishu with both hands. People believed that Yeishu
was a sorcerer and they considered him to be a person who had led the Jews
astray. As a result of charges brought against him (the details of which are
not known, but which probably involved high treason) Yeishu was stoned and his
body hung up on the eve of Passover. Before this he was paraded around for
forty days with a herald going in front of him announcing that he would be
stoned and calling for people to come forward to plead for him. Nothing was
brought forward in his favor however. Yeishu had five disciples: Mattai, Naqai,
Neitzer, Buni, and Todah.
In the Tosefta and the Baraitas, Yeishu's father is named Pandeira or Panteiri.
These are Hebrew-Aramaic forms of a Greek name. In Hebrew the third consonant
of the name is written either with a dalet or a tet. Comparison with other
Greek words transliterated into Hebrew shows that the original Greek must have
had a delta as its third consonant and so the only possibility for the father's
Greek name is Panderos. Since Greek names were common among Jews during
Hashmonean times it is not necessary to assume that he was Greek, as some
authors have done.
The connection between Yeishu and Jesus is corroborated by the the fact that
Mattai and Todah, the names of two of Yeishu's disciples, are the original
Hebrew forms of Matthew and Thaddaeus, the names of two of Jesus's disciples in
Christian mythology
Peter @ The Upper Room
your ancestors have for almost two millennia. When I read the Gospels, I was
given faith by God to believe in his truth. When I accepted him into my
heart a series of supernatural events followed that would make it impossible
to deny the reality that JESUS IS ALIVE and well and is that Spiritual
Unified Being known as God... and not just any god, but the God of Abraham,
the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.
Hallelujah! Our God reigns! To those of us who have encountered the Living
God, your desperate fiction speaks volumes of the frantic position and the
spiritual darkness modern Jews find themselves in today. With literally tens
of thousands of Jews converting to belief in Jesus annually, it won't be
long before the religious leadership of Jewry will have to reassess its
position on the status of Jews who express belief in Jesus Christ.
I am a David on my mother's side but I never would even consider referring
to myself as a Jew. Even though I have maternal blood ties, it is a religion
I would prefer to sever myself from than argue to be included in. It has
been reduced to an organization based on the worst of man's traditions while
divorcing itself from any spiritual experience offered by God. The pettiness
of the discussions would embarrass even the simplest of men in ages gone by.
"They're taking OUR symbols!" "They're saying OUR prayers!" This whining is
usually immediately followed by WHAAAAAAAHHHHH WHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
WHAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! And sometimes BOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOO
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Jews in the first days of the Christian Era spread stories about Jesus' body
being buried secretly as a way to explain away the fact that his body was
GONE from the tomb (praise God!). HE IS RISEN! When those who actually saw
him resurrected heard the silly stories, they were immediately tipped off to
the one core truth surrounding the Jews who did not believe: they were
afraid. Their fear was palpable. Here was someone they had delivered up to
the filthy Romans and conspired to falsely convict of a capital crime who
was now ON THE LOOSE! Yikes! I would be scared too. But that was then.
What of today? Why the uproar over Jesus today among Jews worldwide? While
their failed attempt to introduce the world to the light of God's Word can
be deduced by simple arithmetic, so can the power of Jesus' message. After
six thousand years of "playing religion" and walking contrary to God's ways,
the Jewish religion has grown in leaps and bounds to a whopping membership
of 12 million. While the people who count Jesus as lord in measured in the
Billions. No doubt, both camps are filled with marginal members. The fact
remains that familiarity with the God of Israel in the world can only be
credited to Jesus.
This Jesus heals. This Jesus forgives. This Jesus provides. This Jesus is
worthy to be praised. He speaks in our congregations through prophets and
interpreters. When he utters his name, he says Jesus. He doesn't get all
misty about a dead language that even the primitives couldn't agree on from
generation to generation. He NEVER calls himself Yeshua or Yehoshuah or
HaMosiach. He is God and he will be whom he will be. When those of us who
have met him in this life hear these silly, desperate attempts to
marginalize his incarnation, we see right away that if it were not for the
fear that has consumed you, it might be possible to get you to sit still
long enough to have a spiritual experience yourself. But alas, just when the
conversation gets warm, you get perverse or just plain nasty.
Your intellect will not help you find God. If anything, it is an obstacle.
You must learn to MASTER your mind and let your heart reach out. God judges
the heart of man. When your heart has grown so cold that only hatred for
Jesus is what animates your spiritual life, know for a certainty that you
have lost the battle for your soul and darkness will be your covering and
misery your companion forever.
While there still is time, and there isn't much, consider the awesome power
of God. Do you really think he cannot produce a human son? He can do
anything.
"I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to Me." 2 Sam 7:14
- TANAKH (Jewish Publication Society version (c) 1985)
Many Jews are EXPERIENCING the truth of Jesus as Messiah. I am personally
part of a worldwide movement that experiences the supernatural endowment of
the Holy Spirit while at the same time living a Torah based life. My group
accepts the writings of Matthew, Mark, John and James. We do not call
ourselves Messianic Jews but we do have fellowship with other groups who
reject Paulus and some of them prefer to be identified as MJ. We unite
around our common love for Jesus and his perfect Law while minimizing our
differences. We believe that God wants us to be an example of love and
fellowship for others to follow. Our different groups do not even agree on
what books we consider sacred, yet we can agree that Jesus died for our sins
and because of his act of Atonement we are free! Hallelujah! Praise Him who
created the sun and moon and stars! Praise His Holy Name! Jesus! Amen!
--
Peter
Yeshiah Zalman <sha...@gatecom.com> wrote
<tripe snipped>
Yeshiah Zalman
I am an ex-minister and know all the lines so you
cant scare me into it. Faith is only necessary where
something can not be deduced logically. And G-D
of the Torah set certain rules to recognize Moshiach
so we would not follow the idol-worshippers.
We have done just that. Dont tell me how to interpret
my own writings. You have prooved nothing and your
answersa to cover that up is Faith?
Deut 13 says that all those "series of events" which we all had!
They DO NOT proove Jesus is real. You have to Read the
Torah to know what G-D expects.
Jews also are not frantic or desperate. We simply know what
we are talking about. Sorry, I was sold a lie and got a refund!
Shayah
Peter @ The Upper Room <peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1etv4.16115$e53.5...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Peter @ The Upper Room
because God has hardened your heart. Salvation belongs to God and it is up
to him who to give it to. He has obviously decided to hide it from you. I
understand this. Your hatred is obvious. I wouldn't want you in my house
either. So, you see, I am in complete harmony with God about you.
No doubt there are a few minor errors in the copies of some of the books.
Nothing to question Jesus about though. There are also errors in Torah. It
doesn't mean Torah is wrong, just that men have failed to preserve the
message perfectly. Same with the Gospel.
I follow Torah. If you are following Talmud, then I am following Torah much
more closely than you are. I wish you a reasonable life before you meet your
end.
I quoted God saying He was going to be Messiah's Father. This was TANAKH
from JPS. Don't forget I am a David by genetics. Don't talk to me about
"our" books. They are mine too. The difference is that I put God before
tradition and I was granted Eternal Life and you were granted a bitter life.
; )
--
Peter
Yeshiah Zalman <sha...@gatecom.com> wrote in message
news:aJuv4.83671$ox5.22...@tw11.nn.bcandid.com...
Yeshiah Zalman
David, Etc. These people did not ask for it, they were given it as a GIFT!
That also is not the G-d Moshe knew. G-d does not arbitrarily harden peoples
heart. Pharo rejected G-D and heardened his own hear first.
You have an assumption based on no proof.
Peter @ The Upper Room
(Isaiah 6:9-10) And he said, "Go, and say to this people: 'Hear and hear,
but do not understand; see and see, but do not perceive.' {10} Make the
heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest
they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with
their hearts, and turn and be healed."
It is obvious that you do not know the scriptures very well.
--
Peter
Yeshiah Zalman <sha...@gatecom.com> wrote in message
news:uFCv4.84463$ox5.22...@tw11.nn.bcandid.com...
Reo
<peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Read it and weep. This is why you cannot understand Jesus.
Actually, its more like your misapplication of our verses is why you
believe in Jesus
>(Isaiah 6:9-10) And he said, "Go, and say to this people: 'Hear and hear,
>but do not understand; see and see, but do not perceive.' {10} Make the
>heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest
>they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with
>their hearts, and turn and be healed."
This has nothing at all to do with Jesus and everything to do with
Hashem warning a wicked population through the prophet Isaiah. If
Israel did not repent, their land will be made desolate and they will
be carried off into captivity.
>It is obvious that you do not know the scriptures very well.
>Peter
You live up to your own words.
Reo
----
Do not lift your horns up high
in vainglorious bluster.
For what lifts a man comes not from the east
or the west or the wilderness;
For it is G-d who gives judgment;
He brings down one man, He lifts up another.
There is a cup in AD-NAI’s hand
with foaming wine fully mixed;
From this He pours;
All the wicked of the earth drink,
draining it to the very dregs.
As for me, I will declare forever,
I will sing a hymn to the G-d of Jacob.
Psalm 75
BUSHBADEE
Room" <peterup...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>Read it and weep. This is why you cannot understand Jesus.
>
>(Isaiah 6:9-10) And he said, "Go, and say to this people: 'Hear and hear,
>but do not understand; see and see, but do not perceive.' {10} Make the
>heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest
>they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with
>their hearts, and turn and be healed."
>
>It is obvious that you do not know the scriptures very well.
Nor do you,
If you look at the first period at the end of the first sentence in Genises,
you will with-in that period find the whole prediction of the comeing of Jesus
and his whole life story.
As Benny Bell you to say.
If you want to believe it, It's true.
sdaf
sadf
>
I DO NOT FOLLOW MANY OF THESE NEWS GROUPS
To answere me address mail to
Bush...@aol.com
Pam
I liked your post. You say here you would not call yourself a Jew, but
elsewhere that you follow Torah. Could you explain what you mean? I have
been thinking lately about the MJ movement. I do support Jews carrying
on whatever traditions they want. But I am wondering if the preference
by some not to fully identify with the rest of the members of the Body
of Christ, their brothers and sisters in the Lord, is good. I don't want
to offend any MJs but although there is nothing wrong with these Jewish
traditions in themselves, they are associated with the false teachings
of modern Judaism. Just something I have been thinking about.
Jon Brooks
Yeshiah Zalman <sha...@gatecom.com> wrote in article
<5sdv4.81952$ox5.22...@tw11.nn.bcandid.com>...
> The term notzrim refers to Yeshu HaNotzri who was a disciple of
> Rabbi Parachia I believe. quite Some before The church thinks.
> HE was one of many false messiahs for the next 100 years and
> considered himself "the branch". Hence the term. His followers
> were called notzrim. And when the romans amalgamated the Yeshu
> stories (yes more than one Yeshu in Talmud). They got the term
> passed on. See excerpt below!
>
A different Yeshua, Yeshua "ben Yosef" is in fact really Yeshua ben David,
the promised Moshiach. If Yeshua of Natzeret was not the Messiah, there
never will be a Messiah, making the prophets fools, and Moshe the biggest
of fools.
The Branch is Yeshua of Natzeret HaMoshiach, there is no seperating
HaMoshiach of the TaNaKh and the Lord Yeshua.
To do so is to spit in the face of God.
there are to many historical facts to deny the Yeshua of the B'rit
Chadashah.
The Talmud is a book of alot of good facts, but it is not where i would
start my search on HaMoshiach and who Yeshua is. all the stories of Yeshua
[Ben David] in the Talmud are the works of biased rabbis whom felt that the
story was to dangerous to there way of life, they wanted to keep control of
the people, rather then let God be the true contoller of Israel. Not all
rabbis were like this, but many were, they were just like those that Yeshua
rebuked in the Gospels.
I still have much respect for such men, Yeshua even said to obey them, but
not to do what they do.
> We know very little about Yeishu ha-Notzri. All modern works that mention
him
> are based on information taken from the Tosefta and the Baraitas -
writings
> made at the same time as the Mishna but not contained in it. Because the
> historical information concerning Yeishu is so damaging to Christianity,
most
> Christian authors (and even some Jewish ones) have tried to discredit
this
> information and have invented many ingenious arguments to explain it
away. Many
> of their arguments are based on misunderstandings and misquotations of
the
> Baraitas and in order to get an accurate picture of Yeishu one should
ignore
> Christian authors and examine the Baraitas directly.
>
Why? so we can all believe a biased and purely anti-Yeshuitic account?
As a "Notzri" or "Nazarene" I find this very offensive, this is a simple
and pure attack against HaMoshiach and His talmudim, one which is more
fitting of a nazi propagandist, then that of a Jew.
--
In Christ Jesus, His disciple Jonathan
email at xrist...@hotmail.com
Berakah HaShem Yeshua HaMoshiach Ben El Elyon
"Blessings in the Name of Jesus the Messiah, Son of God Most High"
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood,
a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you
may declare praises to Him who called you out of
darkness into His wonderful light.
-1 Peter 2:9
>
>
>
>
>
Peter @ The Upper Room
only those who are yet in the darkness with you who may be convinced of your
error.
--
Peter
BUSHBADEE <bush...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000303155219...@nso-bd.aol.com...
> In article <UuFv4.17584$pf4.6...@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Peter @ The
Upper
Peter @ The Upper Room
side. They are no more your verses than mine.
You relinquished any claim to the God of Israel when you rejected His Son.
--
Peter
Reo <r...@infi.net> wrote in message
news:38bfdf71....@news.infi.net...
> On Fri, 03 Mar 2000 02:32:20 GMT, "Peter @ The Upper Room"
> <peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Read it and weep. This is why you cannot understand Jesus.
>
> Actually, its more like your misapplication of our verses is why you
> believe in Jesus
>
> >(Isaiah 6:9-10) And he said, "Go, and say to this people: 'Hear and
hear,
> >but do not understand; see and see, but do not perceive.' {10} Make the
> >heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest
> >they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with
> >their hearts, and turn and be healed."
>
> This has nothing at all to do with Jesus and everything to do with
> Hashem warning a wicked population through the prophet Isaiah. If
> Israel did not repent, their land will be made desolate and they will
> be carried off into captivity.
>
> >It is obvious that you do not know the scriptures very well.
Reo
<peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What do you mean "our" verses? I am descended from King David on my mother's
>side. They are no more your verses than mine.
OK, "our" means yours and mine.
>You relinquished any claim to the God of Israel when you rejected His Son.
Prove it using our scriptures.
BUSHBADEE
Room" <peterup...@hotmail.com> writes:
>bject: Re: Jesus is REAL!!!
>From: "Peter @ The Upper Room" <peterup...@hotmail.com>
>Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 05:15:27 GMT
>
>Everyone who is in the light can see that you are in the darkness. It is
>only those who are yet in the darkness with you who may be convinced of your
>error.
Possibly , there is always a first time.
by the way can you cite a single contempory example to prove your point.
dfsa
Mordecai
"Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
> What do you mean "our" verses? I am descended from King David on my mother's
> side. They are no more your verses than mine.
>
> You relinquished any claim to the God of Israel when you rejected His Son.
>
> --
>
> Peter
You think anyone has a CLAIM on the Almighty? wow.
You think also that Paul is wrong when he states "The Jews are beloved for their
forefathers sakes ...."
Interesting.
Mordecai!
>
>
> Reo <r...@infi.net> wrote in message
> news:38bfdf71....@news.infi.net...
> > On Fri, 03 Mar 2000 02:32:20 GMT, "Peter @ The Upper Room"
> > <peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Read it and weep. This is why you cannot understand Jesus.
> >
> > Actually, its more like your misapplication of our verses is why you
> > believe in Jesus
> >
> > >(Isaiah 6:9-10) And he said, "Go, and say to this people: 'Hear and
> hear,
> > >but do not understand; see and see, but do not perceive.' {10} Make the
> > >heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest
> > >they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with
> > >their hearts, and turn and be healed."
> >
> > This has nothing at all to do with Jesus and everything to do with
> > Hashem warning a wicked population through the prophet Isaiah. If
> > Israel did not repent, their land will be made desolate and they will
> > be carried off into captivity.
> >
> > >It is obvious that you do not know the scriptures very well.
> > >Peter
> >
> >
> > You live up to your own words.
> >
> >
Reo
<xrist...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The Branch is Yeshua of Natzeret HaMoshiach, there is no seperating
>HaMoshiach of the TaNaKh and the Lord Yeshua.
No, the BRANCH (NETSER in Hebrew) is an offshoot from Jesse's lineage
through King Davd through Solomon. Jesus was not a descendant of King
David through Solomon as YH-H promised Moshiach will be.
Matthew 2:23 says that Jesus was called a Nazarene (Notzri in Hebrew)
because he was from Nazareth, not because he was the BRANCH of Zech
chapters 3 and 6.
(BTW, find out which prophet actually spoke Matthew 2:23)
>If Yeshua of Natzeret was not the Messiah, there
>never will be a Messiah, making the prophets fools, and Moshe the biggest
>of fools.
As I noted above, the prophets PROVE that Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
The prophets are not fools, nor is Moshe. They said what Moshiach
will be, and Jesus didn't fit the bill. If Jesus is the Messiah then
either the prophets were misinformed, or they themselves misinformed
Israel.
Peter @ The Upper Room
--
Peter
Mordecai <mld...@box.net.au> wrote in message
news:38C0BED5...@box.net.au...
>
>
> "Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
>
> > What do you mean "our" verses? I am descended from King David on my
mother's
Mordecai
"Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
> Paul is a liar and an apostate from the Torah.
>
> --
>
> Peter
>
NU?
So Christianity is wrong?
So the NT is wrong? (at least in part?)
So the churches are wrong ... and you are right?
Interesting.
What portions or writings or sources are you using ... and how come you condemn
us because we obviously have not heard the truth? The latter question is a
question of your morality ... because obviously we have not heard ... and you
have condemned us ....
Mordecai!
>
> Mordecai <mld...@box.net.au> wrote in message
> news:38C0BED5...@box.net.au...
> >
> >
> > "Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
> >
> > > What do you mean "our" verses? I am descended from King David on my
> mother's
Peter @ The Upper Room
We reject Talmud as from man and opposed to God and we also reject
Shaul/Paul for teaching against the Torah. We know that Christ returns again
through the womb and that He will be revealed to the world soon. It is
because of the Spirit of Prophecy that we have been called to observe Torah.
He desires it from us. Let us perfect ourselves for His coming.
To call ourselves Jews would mean identifying with the religion that rejects
Jesus. If you are considering calling yourself a Messianic Jew, go to Israel
and hear how the precious name of Jesus is used. After such blasphemy, you
should run from the name Jew rather than embrace it. I am a son of David and
the honor is not lost on me, but I cannot in good conscience associate
myself with the Jesus-haters.
(Revelation 2:9) "I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are
rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but
are a synagogue of Satan."
Please don't call me a Jew. We are Nazarene. We keep covenant with God. Our
sole desire is to obey. We have nothing of value to give to God except our
obedience and worship. Devotion is our response to His love for us. He chose
to reveal himself to us who are of no account to the world. Some people have
been granted riches, others fame and still others are renowned for their
intellect, but we have been granted to hear the voice of Him who created the
world and we are more than blessed. We are children who run and hide behind
His skirt, laughing and playing in the garden of His love. Let the rain come
and we will open our mouth. Let the sun shine and we will bask in the
warmth. In all things praise God and let your actions speak for themselves.
Amen little sister. Was that helpful?
--
Peter
Pam <pa...@texas.net> wrote in message news:38C0A04F...@texas.net...
Peter @ The Upper Room
was compulsory.
(Matthew 5:17-20) "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the
prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. {18} For
truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a
dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. {19} Whoever then
relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be
called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them
shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {20} For I tell you, unless
your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never
enter the kingdom of heaven."
As God inspires us with His Holy Spirit in these last days, we are being
drawn to the truth as He presents it.
Prophet Daniel foretold of Paul attacking the saints, changing the law and
feast days. He also foretold that in the last days the truth will emerge.
That is what is happening.
Rome was/is the last empire before Christ appears to rule the world.
: Genesis
: Exodus
: Leviticus
: Numbers
: Deuteronomy
: Joshua
: Judges
: Ruth
: 1 Samuel
: 2 Samuel
: 1 Kings
: 2 Kings
: 1 Chronicles
: 2 Chronicles
: Ezra
: Nehemiah
: Job
: Psalms
: Proverbs
: Ecclesiastes
: Song of Solomon
: Isaiah
: Jeremiah
: Lamentations
: Ezekiel
: Daniel
: Hosea
: Joel
: Amos
: Obadiah
: Jonah
: Micah
: Nahum
: Habakkuk
: Zephaniah
: Haggai
: Zechariah
: Malachi
: Matthew
: Mark
: John
: James
: 1 John
: 2 John
: 3 John
: Revelation
--
Peter
Mordecai <mld...@box.net.au> wrote in message
news:38C0D79E...@box.net.au...
>
>
> "Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
>
> > Paul is a liar and an apostate from the Torah.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Peter
> >
>
> NU?
> So Christianity is wrong?
> So the NT is wrong? (at least in part?)
> So the churches are wrong ... and you are right?
>
> Interesting.
>
> What portions or writings or sources are you using ... and how come you
condemn
> us because we obviously have not heard the truth? The latter question is a
> question of your morality ... because obviously we have not heard ... and
you
> have condemned us ....
>
> Mordecai!
>
>
> >
> > Mordecai <mld...@box.net.au> wrote in message
> > news:38C0BED5...@box.net.au...
> > >
> > >
> > > "Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
> > >
> > > > What do you mean "our" verses? I am descended from King David on my
> > mother's
Mordecai
Obviously you cannot follow the teaching of Christianity as these started from a
different basis than you, included books you have not used, and walked a
different path than the one you proclaim.
Do you believe in Trinity - a fairly early doctrine?
Do you believe in exclusivity - another fairly early doctrine?
Mordecai!
>
> Mordecai <mld...@box.net.au> wrote in message
> news:38C0D79E...@box.net.au...
> >
> >
> > "Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
> >
> > > Paul is a liar and an apostate from the Torah.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> >
> > NU?
> > So Christianity is wrong?
> > So the NT is wrong? (at least in part?)
> > So the churches are wrong ... and you are right?
> >
> > Interesting.
> >
> > What portions or writings or sources are you using ... and how come you
> condemn
> > us because we obviously have not heard the truth? The latter question is a
> > question of your morality ... because obviously we have not heard ... and
> you
> > have condemned us ....
> >
> > Mordecai!
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Mordecai <mld...@box.net.au> wrote in message
> > > news:38C0BED5...@box.net.au...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > What do you mean "our" verses? I am descended from King David on my
> > > mother's
Pam
>
> To call ourselves Jews would mean identifying with the religion that rejects
> Jesus. If you are considering calling yourself a Messianic Jew, go to Israel
> and hear how the precious name of Jesus is used.
I'm not an MJ, but an orthodox Christian.
>
> Please don't call me a Jew. We are Nazarene.
There is a denomination called Church of the Nazarene -- do you belong
to that, or any other I might have heard of? There are others like
Shmuel here who accept Jesus but reject Paul, but I don't know if he
belongs to a group or not.
Pam
>
> : Matthew
> : Mark
> : John
> : James
> : 1 John
> : 2 John
> : 3 John
> : Revelation
No Peter?
jha...@dont.spam.me.please
Enoch
Doo Hwan Pak
a son of the new covenant
Peter @ The Upper Room wrote in message ...
>Paul is a liar and an apostate from the Torah.
>
>--
>
>Peter
>
>
>Mordecai <mld...@box.net.au> wrote in message
>news:38C0BED5...@box.net.au...
>>
>>
>> "Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
>>
>> > What do you mean "our" verses? I am descended from King David on my
>mother's
Enoch
Reo? wrote in message <38c0ca86...@news.infi.net>...
>On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 01:36:59 GMT, "Jon Brooks "
><xrist...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>No, the BRANCH (NETSER in Hebrew) is an offshoot from Jesse's lineage
>through King Davd through Solomon. Jesus was not a descendant of King
>David through Solomon as YH-H promised Moshiach will be.
>Matthew 2:23 says that Jesus was called a Nazarene (Notzri in Hebrew)
>because he was from Nazareth, not because he was the BRANCH of Zech
>chapters 3 and 6.
>>(BTW, find out which prophet actually spoke Matthew 2:23)
>>never will be a Messiah, making the prophets fools, and Moshe the biggest
>>of fools.
>The prophets are not fools, nor is Moshe. They said what Moshiach
>will be, and Jesus didn't fit the bill. If Jesus is the Messiah then
>either the prophets were misinformed, or they themselves misinformed
>Israel.
Who do you say Jesus was, then?
Doo-Hwan Pak
a son of the new covenant
>Reo
Pam
>
> [Pam writes]
> >There is a denomination called Church of the Nazarene -- do you belong
> >to that, or any other I might have heard of? There are others like
> >Shmuel here who accept Jesus but reject Paul, but I don't know if he
> >belongs to a group or not.
>
Oh, sorry, I forgot -- you reject the diety of Jesus, not the authority
of Paul. I don't know what Peter thinks about that.
Peter @ The Upper Room
(1 Peter 2:13) "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution,
whether it be to the emperor as supreme"
No Hebrew would dare write that the emperor should be considered "supreme".
This is in conflict with the first command of the Decalogue. "I alone shall
you serve"
2Peter is an obvious forgery put forth only to lend credibility to Shaul. It
quotes apocryphal Enoch and cannot be seriously considered to be inspired.
The Holy Spirit does not quote extra biblical works.
We remain highly suspect of other certain characterizations which we believe
are a result of redaction. For example, the Apostles are never heard from
even though it was the Twelve that Jesus hand picked and personally trained
in his teachings. We here very little from them and when we do, they are
portrayed as bumbling idiots and untrustworthy. We chose not to edit the
Gospels but do not read value into these characterizations. As a result of
Paul and his cohorts the Roman rulers, Jerusalem was trashed and the
synagogues burned. Because he was masquerading as a Christian, he would have
known where to go to seize all the writings. The Romans could destroy
anything that opposed them.
What we have in the Gospels are the precious words of Jesus which could not
be easily changed due to there wide spread use. Paul had a reason for
wanting to portray the true Apostles in a bad light but it was in his
interest to avoid touching Jesus' words.
--
Peter
Pam <pa...@texas.net> wrote in message news:38C140B8...@texas.net...
Peter @ The Upper Room
No, that church does not keep covenant. I belong to a congregation called
The Upper Room. We speak in tongues, have prophecy and observe Torah.
--
Peter
Pam <pa...@texas.net> wrote in message news:38C13FE3...@texas.net...
> "Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
> >
> > Pam,
>
> > To call ourselves Jews would mean identifying with the religion that
rejects
> > Jesus. If you are considering calling yourself a Messianic Jew, go to
Israel
> > and hear how the precious name of Jesus is used.
>
> I'm not an MJ, but an orthodox Christian.
>
>
> >
> > Please don't call me a Jew. We are Nazarene.
>
Reo
wrote:
Ah, just another poor bloke who had the messiah complex. Also its
possible he was just a great teacher whose reputation outlived him
through a fanciful Paul's imagination.
Or, as some have guessed, a leader of a sectarian Jewish movement who
was martyred during the events before Matsada.
Or a combination of the three.
Reo.
>Who do you say Jesus was, then?
>
>Doo-Hwan Pak
>a son of the new covenant
-------
How can a young man keep his way pure?
by holding to Your word.
I have turned to You with all my heart;
do not let me stray from Your commandments.
In my heart I treasure Your promise;
therefore I do not sin against You.
Blessed are You, O YH-H;
train me in Your laws.
With my lips I rehearse
all the rules You proclaimed.
I rejoice over the way of Your decrees
as over all riches.
I study Your precepts;
I regard Your ways;
I take delight in Your laws;
I will not neglect Your word.
Psalm 119
-------
Moshe Shulman
>>The prophets are not fools, nor is Moshe. They said what Moshiach
>>will be, and Jesus didn't fit the bill. If Jesus is the Messiah then
>>either the prophets were misinformed, or they themselves misinformed
>>Israel.
Two Pak: Two questions:
1. Was there a Jesus? 2. Who cares?
moshe shulman mshu...@NOSPAMix.netcom.com 718-436-7705
CHASSIDUS.NET - Yoshav Rosh http://www.chassidus.net
Outreach Judaism http://www.outreachjudaism.org/
ICQ# 52009254
Shmuel Playfair
[Pam writes]
>There is a denomination called Church of the Nazarene -- do you belong
>to that, or any other I might have heard of? There are others like
>Shmuel here who accept Jesus but reject Paul, but I don't know if he
>belongs to a group or not.
[Shmuel] What did Shmuel say to make you think that he rejects Paul?
Peter @ The Upper Room
you will agree is quite silly. I use this parable to help those like Shmuel
who have a hard time understanding. It goes like this.
Consider if you will, a pitcher of water. The picture fills a glass.
Although both are in separate containers are not both water? Again, the
glass is poured back into the pitcher. Hence there is only One Water.
--
Peter
Pam <pa...@texas.net> wrote in message news:38C1F16A...@texas.net...
Peter @ The Upper Room
(Matthew 6:24) "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the
one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the
other."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Jesus (Matthew 5:18-20) For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass
away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is
accomplished. {19} Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these
commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of
heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven. {20} For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds
that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of
heaven.
Paul (Romans 7:6) But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that
which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but
in the new life of the Spirit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Jesus (John 14:15) "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
Paul (Ephesians 2:14-16) For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and
has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, {15} by abolishing in his
flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in
himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, {16} and might
reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the
hostility to an end.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
John (1 John 2:4-6) He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments
is a liar, and the truth is not in him; {5} but whoever keeps his word, in
him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in
him: {6} he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which
he walked.
Paul (Romans 7:18-19) For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that
is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. {19} For I do
not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
James (James 4:11-12) Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He
that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil
against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a
doer of the law but a judge. {12} There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is
able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?
Paul (1 Corinthians 6:3) Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How
much more, matters pertaining to this life!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Speaking of contradictions. . .
A common tool of the legal profession, whether police or attorneys is the
method of redundant interrogation. A person is asked the same question more
than once to verify the veracity of the answer given. The truthful answer
remains consistent while a lie is subject to change since it is not based on
a real event.
Consider these discrepancies in the testimony of Saul of Tarsus, AKA"Paul",
who called himself an apostle.
(Acts 9:3-7) Now as he journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a
light from heaven flashed about him. {4} And he fell to the ground and heard
a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" {5} And he
said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are
persecuting; {6} but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you
are to do." {7} The men who were traveling with him stood speechless,
hearing the voice but seeing no one.
(Acts 22:6-11) "As I made my journey and drew near to Damascus, about noon
a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me. {7} And I fell to the
ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute
me?' {8} And I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus
of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.' {9} Now those who were with me saw
the light but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me. {10}
And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Rise, and go
into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to
do.' {11} And when I could not see because of the brightness of that light,
I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.
Did his 'eyewitnesses' hear the voice or not?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Another interesting point . . .Unlike every other Christian who entered into
the Kingdom, this sudden and very mysterious conversion was not proceeded by
repentance!
He considered himself blameless.
(Philippians 3:4-6) Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh
also. If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I
have more: {5} circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of
the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee,
{6} as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law
blameless.
(Matthew 16:6) Jesus said to them, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of
the Pharisees and Sadducees."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Also for discussion:
The record is clear that Saul consented to the death of Christians.
(Acts 7:59-60) And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, "Lord Jesus,
receive my spirit." {60} And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice,
"Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he
fell asleep.
(Acts 8:1) And Saul was consenting to his death. And on that day a great
persecution arose against the church in Jerusalem; and they were all
scattered throughout the region of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
He waged war on the saints.
(Acts 8:3) But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after
house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
He sought to change the times and the law.
(Romans 7:6) But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which
held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the
new life of the Spirit.
(Galatians 5:18) But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the
law.
(Colossians 2:16) Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of
food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Our salvation is based upon the work of Jesus, the Son of God and not upon
the word or action of any preacher, regardless of whether he had a mouth
that appeared to be speaking great things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
(Daniel 7:25-26) He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear
out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the
law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, two times, and half a
time. {26} But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be
taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.
A time (10) + two times (20) + half a time (5) = 35 years. Paul's mission
was for 35 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
(Matthew 5:17-20) "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the
prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. {18} For
truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a
dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. {19} Whoever then
relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be
called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them
shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {20} For I tell you, unless
your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never
enter the kingdom of heaven.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Was Paul an Apostle? According to whom?
(Luke 6:13-16) And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from
them twelve, whom he named apostles; {14} Simon, whom he named Peter, and
Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, {15}
and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was
called the Zealot, {16} and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who
became a traitor.
(1 Corinthians 9:2) If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you;
for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Hmmmmmmmm.....
Jesus (Matthew 23:9-10) And call no man your father on earth, for you have
one Father, who is in heaven. {10} Neither be called masters, for you have
one master, the Christ.
Paul (1 Corinthians 4:15-16) For though you have countless guides in
Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ
Jesus through the gospel. {16} I urge you, then, be imitators of me.
Can you hold the teaching of Jesus and Paul at the same time? Can a man
serve two masters? Why don't modern Christians live according to the law?
Have they not abandoned the teaching of Jesus?
Peter @ The Upper Room
As a matter of fact, billions care about Jesus. As for you and your tired
little gang of misfits, I notice that you aren't so brave when discussing
these things in person. You are very brave on USENET, I notice.
I have read your disparaging remarks about our LORD and I know for a fact
that they can make a devout man temporarily insane with blinding rage. I am
against violence myself but because I care about you, I just wanted to give
you a heads up. There is no problem with discussing things in a civil way,
but you must realize that your talk about Jesus goes over the top and
crosses the line. However it is a free world for the most part and its your
choice.
What city are you from Moshe? I am sure that there is someone who would be
willing to share the Gospel with you. Does anyone here know Mr. Shulman?
If you truly do not care about Jesus, why are you posting here? Am I to take
it that you are only here to cause trouble... a troll, as they say? I don't
think that is a healthy choice Moshe baby...
--
Peter
Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote
BUSHBADEE
(Moshe Shulman) writes:
>
>Two Pak: Two questions:
>1. Was there a Jesus? 2. Who cares?
>
This is the smart ass answeres I am talking about.
Now I do not beleive Jesus existed.
Two Pak chooses to believe he does.
Why is it neccesary to insult both him and his faith.
Moishe may think he is cute tossing off these one liners, but they went out
with Abbot and Costello.
asdf
Yeshiah Zalman
> So Christianity is wrong?
> So the NT is wrong? (at least in part?)
> So the churches are wrong ... and you are right
NO RATHER,
3300 years of Torah is right while 1900 years
of rome and Paul are Wrong.
Yeshu ben Parachiya
Bar Kochba
Shabatai tzvi
and all other false messiahs are wrong.
Yeshiah Zalman
guess who
Jon Brooks wrote:
>
> Yeshiah Zalman <sha...@gatecom.com> wrote in article
> <5sdv4.81952$ox5.22...@tw11.nn.bcandid.com>...
> > The term notzrim refers to Yeshu HaNotzri who was a disciple of
> > Rabbi Parachia I believe. quite Some before The church thinks.
> > HE was one of many false messiahs for the next 100 years and
> > considered himself "the branch". Hence the term. His followers
> > were called notzrim. And when the romans amalgamated the Yeshu
> > stories (yes more than one Yeshu in Talmud). They got the term
> > passed on. See excerpt below!
> >
>
> A different Yeshua, Yeshua "ben Yosef" is in fact really Yeshua ben David,
> the promised Moshiach. If Yeshua of Natzeret was not the Messiah, there
> never will be a Messiah, making the prophets fools, and Moshe the biggest
> of fools.
huh? you get this because . . .
--
************************************
The State of New Jersey has moved four
blocks west.
Notice on government office building in
Newark, New Jersey
************************************
guess who
"Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
>
> The original church in Jerusalem were Torah observant. Jesus taught Torah
> was compulsory.
>
> (Matthew 5:17-20) "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the
> prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. {18} For
> truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a
> dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. {19} Whoever then
> relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be
> called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them
> shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {20} For I tell you, unless
> your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never
> enter the kingdom of heaven."
>
> As God inspires us with His Holy Spirit in these last days, we are being
> drawn to the truth as He presents it.
>
> Prophet Daniel foretold of Paul attacking the saints, changing the law and
> feast days. He also foretold that in the last days the truth will emerge.
> That is what is happening.
>
so you follow the torah reject the talmud and the false
teaching of paul and other men.
do you observe yom kippur
how do you keep
------------- Exodus 35:3 -------------+
3 Ye shall kindle no fire Ś
throughout your habitations upon the Ś
sabbath day. Ś
how do you keep the commandment not to eat blood.
do you wear kippot
do you light sabbath candels.
Moshe Shulman
<peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>As a matter of fact, billions care about Jesus. As for you and your tired
>little gang of misfits, I notice that you aren't so brave when discussing
>these things in person. You are very brave on USENET, I notice.
? There are billions who care about communism still. That is supposed to mean
something. Billions care about Mohamad. Does that make him important? (As to
discussing in person, I notice you havenever called my phone number, which
appears at the bottom of every post. That is a private line (I use it when
on-line also) Maybe you would like to see how I am in person?
>I have read your disparaging remarks about our LORD and I know for a fact
YOUR LORD, but not THE LORD. Hindus have their gods also. They are just as
fake.
>that they can make a devout man temporarily insane with blinding rage. I am
>against violence myself but because I care about you, I just wanted to give
>you a heads up. There is no problem with discussing things in a civil way,
>but you must realize that your talk about Jesus goes over the top and
>crosses the line. However it is a free world for the most part and its your
>choice.
That is real white of you, master Peter.
>What city are you from Moshe? I am sure that there is someone who would be
>willing to share the Gospel with you. Does anyone here know Mr. Shulman?
I live in New York, and any Jewish Christian who thinks they want to discuss
with me, they are more then welcomed.
>If you truly do not care about Jesus, why are you posting here? Am I to take
>it that you are only here to cause trouble... a troll, as they say? I don't
>think that is a healthy choice Moshe baby...
Why am I posting here. This group was made for me. It is for those people who
like to show what big fools messianics are. I am sorry you don't like our
sandbox. You should get your own if you don't like it.
Moshe Shulman
>In article <38c1c35f...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Moshe...@chassidus.net
>(Moshe Shulman) writes:
>>Two Pak: Two questions:
>>1. Was there a Jesus? 2. Who cares?
>This is the smart ass answeres I am talking about.
>Now I do not beleive Jesus existed.
>Two Pak chooses to believe he does.
>Why is it neccesary to insult both him and his faith.
>Moishe may think he is cute tossing off these one liners, but they went out
>with Abbot and Costello.
Bush, you may not have noticed this, but I answer each person according to his
ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried to
discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
BUSHBADEE
(Moshe Shulman) writes:
>
>Bush, you may not have noticed this, but I answer each person according to
>his
>ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried to
>discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
>
OK from here on I will obey my own injucktion and be nice too.
I do not know two paks IQ.
As you are well aware, I do not agree with his theology.
But that does not stop me from respecting his beliefs.
(Even though I think they are based on outright lies and fallacies.)
The point is that for what ever reason, he has bought into them.
They give him solace in moments of stess and danger.
The give him hope that death is not the end.
They are a crutch for him through life as he can not stand up on his own.
As long as he does not try to blame me for the crimes of his spiritual
ancesstors what harm does he do.
As long as he does not spout anti semitism and quote John to me, he does me or
mine no harm.
I am ready to die tomorrow.
I need no heaven.
I need no after life.
I have had my reward here in this life.
I am satisfied, well satisfied, with my portion in this life.
He needs more.
He is not ready to die tomorrow.
He needs some hope that there is more.
Who am I or even you to deny this hope to him.
To do so is forbidden to us by our common religion.
Even to a raisen;-)
dfsa
BUSHBADEE
asdf
Moshe Shulman
>In article <38c291bf...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Moshe...@chassidus.net
>(Moshe Shulman) writes:
>>Bush, you may not have noticed this, but I answer each person according to
>>his
>>ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried to
>>discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
>OK from here on I will obey my own injucktion and be nice too.
>I do not know two paks IQ.
It's less then the number of Aramaic prayers in all of the orders of prayer in
the whole year. :)
Rob Strom
> "Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
>
> I liked your post.
You did??????????
Even though he said the following?
> ...
> >
> > I am a David on my mother's side but I never would even consider referring
> > to myself as a Jew. Even though I have maternal blood ties, it is a religion
> > I would prefer to sever myself from than argue to be included in. It has
> > been reduced to an organization based on the worst of man's traditions while
> > divorcing itself from any spiritual experience offered by God. The pettiness
> > of the discussions would embarrass even the simplest of men in ages gone by.
You think Judaism is built on the worst of man's traditions???
--
Rob Strom
Peter @ The Upper Room
Peter @ The Upper Room
--
Peter
Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote
Pam
>
> You think Judaism is built on the worst of man's traditions???
>
No, not even close.
Enoch
Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
> >Two Pak chooses to believe he does.
> >Why is it neccesary to insult both him and his faith.
> >Moishe may think he is cute tossing off these one liners, but they went
out
> >with Abbot and Costello.
> Bush, you may not have noticed this, but I answer each person according to
his
> ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried to
> discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
You is call'n me a fool, ain't it, snotty Shulman???
But sure G-D even uses a fool like me.
Enoch
(Moshe Shulman) writes:
>Two Pak: Two questions:
>1. Was there a Jesus? 2. Who cares?
Actually, snotty Shulman, Q.1 was exactly what the Pharasees and Scribes
asked to themselves when the saw Jesus with their own eyes. In their
narrow band of mind, once they saw him, this Jesus mustn't exist for their
sake. So they plotted to kill him.
Probably the same way Science and Modern Philosophy tries to
deny the existence of G-D, because it conflicts with their set of beliefs.
To give you a better understanding, have you ever seen "Phantom of the
Opera"? In the musical, Christine constantly rejects Phantom as only a
ghost and her make-belief, because he constantly reflects her most
inner thought (in the show, she looks at the mirror and she finds a
horrifying
herself portrayed). So she rejects the truth of her ugly self only to live
in
the superficial happy lifestyle. So to Christine, Phantom only became the
ghostly figure -- make belief.
Q.2 should be answered by yourself, if Jesus was a make-belief (or fake
as you would say) then there not much you should care. But it his story
really was true, then it proves your religion to be false. Your eternity
depends on it.
> This is the smart ass answeres I am talking about.
> Now I do not beleive Jesus existed.
> Two Pak chooses to believe he does.
> Why is it neccesary to insult both him and his faith.
Because he is snotty.
> Moishe may think he is cute tossing off these one liners, but they went
out
> with Abbot and Costello.
What is Abbot and Costello??
Enoch
his
> ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried to
> discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
BTW, IQ is very misleading. At least, it is not biblical.
Enoch
Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
> Bush, you may not have noticed this, but I answer each person according to
his
> ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried to
> discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
Speaking for G-D does not ask for high IQ.
Moshe Shulman
<peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Without a doubt... the worst.
Does that include the ones that appear in the NT also?
>
>--
>
>Peter
>
>
>Rob Strom <st...@watson.ibm.com> wrote
>> You think Judaism is built on the worst of man's traditions???
>
>
Moshe Shulman
<peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am not going anywhere. This is my sandbox now.
ROTFL.
>
>--
>
>Peter
>
>
>Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote
>I am sorry you don't like our
>> sandbox. You should get your own if you don't like it.
>
>
Shmuel Playfair
[Peter writes]
>To reject the deity of Jesus is to reject the deity of God, which I am sure
>you will agree is quite silly. I use this parable to help those like Shmuel
>who have a hard time understanding. It goes like this.
>
>Consider if you will, a pitcher of water. The picture fills a glass.
>Although both are in separate containers are not both water? Again, the
>glass is poured back into the pitcher. Hence there is only One Water.
[Shmuel] Is this "water" able to fill other pitchers?
I guess this "parable" makes sense if your "God" is like a pitcher of water.
Peter @ The Upper Room
Let us not confuse the religion of the Hebrews with what is now passed off
as "Judaism." Just like all other religions, man modifies it so much that it
becomes unrecognizable from what is originally was.
--
Peter
Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
news:38c303be...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
> On Sun, 05 Mar 2000 22:54:41 GMT, "Peter @ The Upper Room"
> <peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Without a doubt... the worst.
>
> Does that include the ones that appear in the NT also?
>
> >
> >--
> >
> >Peter
> >
> >
> >Rob Strom <st...@watson.ibm.com> wrote
> >> You think Judaism is built on the worst of man's traditions???
> >
> >
>
>
BUSHBADEE
(Moshe Shulman) writes:
>
>It's less then the number of Aramaic prayers in all of the orders of prayer
>in
>the whole year. :)
>
ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha.
point taken.
dsaf
BUSHBADEE
(BUSHBADEE) writes:
>
>>Bush, you may not have noticed this, but I answer each person according to
>>his
>>ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried to
>>discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
>>
Moishe let me answere you again as my wife would answere you.
It is better than him being a Barbarian and sacrificing a child to Astartes
every month.
Now I am not so sure of that and do not always agree with her.
Considering all the children that died in the holocost it would have kept the
barbarians, at a child a month, in children for a lot more than two thousand
years. Given a child a month or a couple million in a couple years, and having
to make that Hobson's choice I think I would go with the child a month.
Moshe Shulman
<peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Why do you think they needed a savior?
Who needs a savior?
>Let us not confuse the religion of the Hebrews with what is now passed off
>as "Judaism." Just like all other religions, man modifies it so much that it
>becomes unrecognizable from what is originally was.
Why? It would be a very good comparison. Christianity would fail horribly.
Moshe Shulman
>In article <20000305140244...@nso-fa.aol.com>, bush...@aol.com
>(BUSHBADEE) writes:
>>>Bush, you may not have noticed this, but I answer each person according to
>>>his
>>>ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried to
>>>discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
>Moishe let me answere you again as my wife would answere you.
>It is better than him being a Barbarian and sacrificing a child to Astartes
>every month.
Maybe. But if he comes here to a place where there are Jews, he is worse.
BUSHBADEE
Blue chip stamps.
sadf
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
followed.
"Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
Torah
> : Genesis
> : Exodus
> : Leviticus
> : Numbers
> : Deuteronomy
Neviim (Prophets)
> : Joshua
> : Judges
Order is broken here this is from Kesuvim
> : Ruth
back to Neviim again
> : 1 Samuel
> : 2 Samuel
> : 1 Kings
> : 2 Kings
Back to Kesuvim again
> : 1 Chronicles
> : 2 Chronicles
> : Ezra
> : Nehemiah
> : Job
> : Psalms
> : Proverbs
> : Ecclesiastes
> : Song of Solomon
Back to Neviim again
> : Isaiah
> : Jeremiah
> : Lamentations
> : Ezekiel
Another entry from Kesuvim
> : Daniel
Back to Neviim
> : Hosea
> : Joel
> : Amos
> : Obadiah
> : Jonah
> : Micah
> : Nahum
> : Habakkuk
> : Zephaniah
> : Haggai
> : Zechariah
> : Malachi
Now some fiction thrown in that is not part of any section of Jewish
writings
> : Matthew
> : Mark
> : John
> : James
> : 1 John
> : 2 John
> : 3 John
> : Revelation
>
--
Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore" | Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
Jews are the fish, Torah is our water | Zovchai Adam, agalim yishakun
BUSHBADEE
writes:
>and Scribes
>asked to themselves when the saw Jesus with their own eyes. In their
>narrow band of mind, once they saw him, this Jesus mustn't exist for their
>sake. So they plotted to kill him.
Check with a dr. I think your dilusional.
What is worse you are beginning to sound like an anti semite to me.
You really do not want to do that.
sdaf
BUSHBADEE
(Moshe Shulman) writes:
>
>Maybe. But if he comes here to a place where there are Jews, he is worse.
>
be nice
dsaf
kochav_b...@my-deja.com
"Peter @ The Upper Room" <peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I follow Torah.
You don't follow Torah. You follow fairy tales that were made up and
were only compiled and finally redacted in the 4th cenury c.e.
1. The book you follow (the NT) was redacted and compiled by SOLELY
GENTILE men.
2. By believeing a book that has been responsible for the murdering and
persecution of your ancestors, you have become a traitor to your
forefathers and to your people.
So you follow foreign gods of your surroundings !!!!!
"Take heed that you do not forget [our Father in Heaven] who freed you
from the land of Egypt... Revere ONLY Hashem your G-d and worship HIM
ALONE, andswear only by His Name. DO NOT FOLLOW OTHER GODS, ANY GODS OF
THE PEOPLEAROUND YOU. (Deut. 7:12-15)
That makes you an idol worshipper !!!!!!!
"Perchance there is among you some man or woman... whose heart is even
now turning away from Hashem our Gd to go worship the gods of those
[Gentile] nations ... When such a one hears the words of these
sanctions he may fancy himself immune, thinking, 'I shall be safe,
though I walk in the tenacity of my heart, thereby adding the watered
upon the thirsty.
"Hashem will not be willing to forgive him; rather Hashem's anger and
passion will smoke against that man till every sanction recorded in
this book comes down upon him, and Hashem blots out his name from under
heaven (Deut. 29:17-19)."
If the beis din gadol was in function presently, you would be liable to
the death penalty !!!
Deuteronomy 13
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter,
or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, that is as thine own soul,
entice thee secretly, saying: 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which
thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 of the gods of the peoples that are round about you, nigh unto thee,
or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other
end of the earth;
8 thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall
thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou
conceal him;
9 but thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to
put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath
sought to draw thee away from the L-RD thy G-d, who brought thee out of
the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such
wickedness as this is in the midst of thee.
Kochav
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Moshe Shulman
>In article <38c32d3c...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Moshe...@chassidus.net
>(Moshe Shulman) writes:
>>Maybe. But if he comes here to a place where there are Jews, he is worse.
>be nice
I am. You have never seen me when I am not nice. :)
Moshe Shulman
> (Moshe Shulman) writes:
>>Two Pak: Two questions:
>>1. Was there a Jesus? 2. Who cares?
>asked to themselves when the saw Jesus with their own eyes. In their
>narrow band of mind, once they saw him, this Jesus mustn't exist for their
>sake. So they plotted to kill him.
If they saw him then they didn't need to ask if there ever was a Jesus. But
just because it is written in some book does not make it true. I dont' believe
in rabbits havign pocket watches.
>To give you a better understanding, have you ever seen "Phantom of the
>Opera"? In the musical, Christine constantly rejects Phantom as only a
Nope. Have no idea what that is. Sounds like somethign about the life of Jesus,
who probably was just a phantom of someones imagination.
>Q.2 should be answered by yourself, if Jesus was a make-belief (or fake
>as you would say) then there not much you should care. But it his story
>really was true, then it proves your religion to be false. Your eternity
>depends on it.
I don't care.
Moshe Shulman
>Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
>his
>> ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried to
>> discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
There are many allusions to it in Proverbs.
Moshe Shulman
>Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
>> Bush, you may not have noticed this, but I answer each person according to
>his
>> ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried to
>> discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
Name me one dumb prophet.
jha...@dont.spam.me.please
Peter @ The Upper Room
posted the books we accept.
We have no graven images. We worship God who is a Spirit.
Somewhere along the way, hate entered the hearts of our people Israel. This
hatred reached up to heaven. God sent His Son to heal us. For a time we
rejoiced in Jerusalem and in the Diaspora. We rejoiced because God had kept
his promise to us.
But there were some that were not true Hebrews. There were some who were
from Satan, and knew only hate and could not love. These we see even today.
Both good and bad exist in every race and among every people.
When you say that the NT is the cause of murdering my ancestors, I assume
you are talking about the infamous quote "you are of your father the devil"?
He was talking to a specific group there. He couldn't have meant all Hebrews
because he would have been describing himself as well. Do you really think
he thought his father was the devil? Do you really think he thought his
Apostles were the sons of the devil? Do you think he really thought that the
people who accepted him from among our people Israel were the children of
the devil? Of course not! Get a grip. He was talking to a few men who were
evil beyond belief.
Do I think that the Roman Church was responsible for the death of many of
us? YES! I do not think they represent Jesus any more than Rush Limbaugh
represents the Democrats. Jesus taught Torah observance. The Roman religion
even changed the day of worship to Sunday because they hated the Hebrew way
so much. They worship statues and charms. They have nothing in common with
us but in name only.
--
Peter
<kochav_b...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8a0dpb$o2g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Peter @ The Upper Room
agree with you. To make a proper assessment of Jesus himself and the fruit
of his work, you must look at the Jerusalem Church.
From all the evidence, the followers of Jesus in Jerusalem were Torah
observant and lived very spiritual lives, witnessing miracles and every
supernatural move of God.
Later, when the Romans with the help of Paul the Roman Pharisee began to
overtake the religion and destroyed Jerusalem, a new religion was born which
had nothing to do with Jesus except his name.
Any Hebrew knows that Torah is God's sacred word. Jesus said so himself.
When you read the NT you are struck with the shift from Jesus to Paul. We do
not accept Paul. Nor do we accept the writings of Lucius, his assistant.
Without these frauds, the teaching of Jesus is seen anew. He built His
Gospel upon the Torah, a firm foundation.
We are a religion of no graven images. We are a religion of One God. We are
a religion of humility and peace. We believe in honesty when dealing with
our neighbor. We believe in chastity and modesty. We eat only what is
allowed in Torah. We observe Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday
sundown. We observe all the feasts. We may see different meanings in the
feasts than you do, but the main thing is that we agree on the days.
Where do we start our comparison?
--
Peter
Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
news:38c32bd2...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
> On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 02:20:10 GMT, "Peter @ The Upper Room"
> <peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Why do you think they needed a savior?
>
> Who needs a savior?
>
> >Let us not confuse the religion of the Hebrews with what is now passed
off
> >as "Judaism." Just like all other religions, man modifies it so much that
it
> >becomes unrecognizable from what is originally was.
>
> Why? It would be a very good comparison. Christianity would fail horribly.
>
>
> >
> >--
> >
> >Peter
> >
> >
> >Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
> >news:38c303be...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
> >> On Sun, 05 Mar 2000 22:54:41 GMT, "Peter @ The Upper Room"
> >> <peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >Without a doubt... the worst.
> >>
> >> Does that include the ones that appear in the NT also?
> >>
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >
> >> >Peter
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Rob Strom <st...@watson.ibm.com> wrote
> >> >> You think Judaism is built on the worst of man's traditions???
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
BUSHBADEE
(Moshe Shulman) writes:
>
>If they saw him then they didn't need to ask if there ever was a Jesus. But
>just because it is written in some book does not make it true. I dont'
>believe
>in rabbits havign pocket watches.
>
that probably is because you have never read the sacred volume of Alice in
Wonder land;-)
Enoch
to
> >his
> >> ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried
to
> >> discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
> >Speaking for G-D does not ask for high IQ.
>
> Name me one dumb prophet.
I've seen alot of dumb geniuses.
Enoch
> >Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
> >> Bush, you may not have noticed this, but I answer each person according
to
> >his
> >> ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried
to
> >> discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
>
> There are many allusions to it in Proverbs.
You are a liar.
People may have gifts from G-D. But that has nothing to
do with one having low or high IQ.
As logn as you have 3 digit IQs, it is ok.
Enoch
> On Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:10:57 -0800, "Enoch" <eno...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > (Moshe Shulman) writes:
> >>Two Pak: Two questions:
> >>1. Was there a Jesus? 2. Who cares?
> >Actually, snotty Shulman, Q.1 was exactly what the Pharasees and Scribes
> >asked to themselves when the saw Jesus with their own eyes. In their
> >narrow band of mind, once they saw him, this Jesus mustn't exist for
their
> >sake. So they plotted to kill him.
>
But
> just because it is written in some book does not make it true. I dont'
believe
> in rabbits havign pocket watches.
You don't know how to read my words.
They saw him and they had hard time accepting him as real.
So they wanted to create false reality by eliminating him.
> >To give you a better understanding, have you ever seen "Phantom of the
> >Opera"? In the musical, Christine constantly rejects Phantom as only a
>
> Nope. Have no idea what that is. Sounds like somethign about the life of
Jesus,
> who probably was just a phantom of someones imagination.
You are at the stage of self-denial.
> >Q.2 should be answered by yourself, if Jesus was a make-belief (or fake
> >as you would say) then there not much you should care. But it his story
> >really was true, then it proves your religion to be false. Your eternity
> >depends on it.
>
> I don't care.
Yes, you do.
Enoch
BUSHBADEE <bush...@aol.com> wrote in message
> "Enoch" <eno...@hotmail.com> writes:
> Check with a dr. I think your dilusional.
> What is worse you are beginning to sound like an anti semite to me.
> You really do not want to do that.
Why don't you check with your dr. instead?
It seems you find antisemitism in just about anything.
It's called, antisemiphobia.
Peter @ The Upper Room
against the Torah and so opposed God. He was from Satan. If you accept Paul,
you reject the teaching of Jesus.
(Matthew 5:17-20) "Think not that I have come to abolish the Torah and the
prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. {18} For
truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a
dot, will pass from the Torah until all is accomplished. {19} Whoever then
relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be
called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them
shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {20} For I tell you, unless
your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never
enter the kingdom of heaven."
--
Peter
(¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·><{{{'>
<'}}}><·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯)
(¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·><{{{'>
John F. Nixon <jni...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:7tf8cs4u3me2ebj8d...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:56:33 GMT, "Peter @ The Upper Room"
> <peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I do not betray my ancestors. I also do not accept the canon of the
Goyim. I
> >posted the books we accept.
>
> What's wrong with the goyim?
>
> --
> cheers, Fred
Moshe Shulman
<peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>If what you mean by Christianity, the Roman religion, then I would have to
>agree with you. To make a proper assessment of Jesus himself and the fruit
>of his work, you must look at the Jerusalem Church.
How can you divorce yourself from that since your 'Scripture' the NT was the
result of their decisions.
>Any Hebrew knows that Torah is God's sacred word. Jesus said so himself.
What's a Hebrew?
>Without these frauds, the teaching of Jesus is seen anew. He built His
>Gospel upon the Torah, a firm foundation.
The gospels have many distortions of truth.
Moshe Shulman
<peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>represents the Democrats. Jesus taught Torah observance. The Roman religion
>even changed the day of worship to Sunday because they hated the Hebrew way
>so much. They worship statues and charms. They have nothing in common with
>us but in name only.
Peter, do you think G-d is angry at that? I woudl think G-d is happy they
changed it (just as he is happy that the Muslims have changed it.) The Shabbos
is a special covenant between G-d and His people. It is not for gentiles.
Moshe Shulman
wrote:
>>posted the books we accept.
>What's wrong with the goyim?
Fred, he doesn't realize that the G-d of the Tenach does not consign all the
non-Jews to the holy BBQ in the sky. G-d is much better then the NT makes him
out to be.
Peter @ The Upper Room
should walk the way he walked. If he joins in the religion he is under the
same law as us.
There is only one law, not two. Here is some Torah for you to learn.
(Exodus 12:49) There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger
who sojourns among you."
(Leviticus 24:22) You shall have one law for the sojourner and for the
native; for I am the LORD your God."
(Numbers 15:16) One law and one ordinance shall be for you and for the
stranger who sojourns with you."
(Numbers 15:29) You shall have one law for him who does anything
unwittingly, for him who is native among the people of Israel, and for the
stranger who sojourns among them.
You need to spend more time with Torah and less time on the computer : )
--
Peter
(¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·><{{{'>
<'}}}><·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯)
(¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·><{{{'>
Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
news:38c457cd...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
> On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:56:33 GMT, "Peter @ The Upper Room"
> <peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >represents the Democrats. Jesus taught Torah observance. The Roman
religion
> >even changed the day of worship to Sunday because they hated the Hebrew
way
> >so much. They worship statues and charms. They have nothing in common
with
> >us but in name only.
>
> Peter, do you think G-d is angry at that? I woudl think G-d is happy they
> changed it (just as he is happy that the Muslims have changed it.) The
Shabbos
> is a special covenant between G-d and His people. It is not for gentiles.
>
Peter @ The Upper Room
decisions the Romans made are of no import to us.
Just because men made mistakes copying (even intended) the books doesn't
make them null and void.
Look in the TANAKH and you will find many errors. Do you throw it away
because of a few mistakes? I have MANY MORE than are here:
David took seven hundred (2 Sam. 8:4), seven thousand (1 Chron. 18:4)
horsemen
from Hadadezer;
Solomon made of a molten sea which contained 2,000 (1 Kings 7:26), 3,000 (2
Chron. 4:5) baths;
Ahaziah was 22 (2 Kings 8:26), 42 (2 Chron. 22:2) years old when he began to
reign;
Jehoiachin was 18 (2 Kings 24:8), 8 (2 Chron. 36:9) years old when he began
to
reign and he reigned 3 months (2 Kings 24:8), 3 months and 10 days (2 Chron.
36:9);
Saul's daughter, Michal, had no sons (2 Sam. 6:23), had 5 sons (2 Sam. 21:6)
during her lifetime;
Lot was Abraham's nephew (Gen. 14:12), brother (Gen. 14:14);
--
Peter
(¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·><{{{'>
<'}}}><·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯)
(¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·><{{{'>
Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
news:38c4534f...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
> On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 23:16:42 GMT, "Peter @ The Upper Room"
> <peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >If what you mean by Christianity, the Roman religion, then I would have
to
> >agree with you. To make a proper assessment of Jesus himself and the
fruit
> >of his work, you must look at the Jerusalem Church.
>
>
> How can you divorce yourself from that since your 'Scripture' the NT was
the
> result of their decisions.
>
> >Any Hebrew knows that Torah is God's sacred word. Jesus said so himself.
>
> What's a Hebrew?
>
> >Without these frauds, the teaching of Jesus is seen anew. He built His
> >Gospel upon the Torah, a firm foundation.
>
> The gospels have many distortions of truth.
>
>
Moshe Shulman
<peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>This is where you are wrong. If a man accepts Jesus' words as true then he
>should walk the way he walked. If he joins in the religion he is under the
>same law as us.
>There is only one law, not two. Here is some Torah for you to learn.
>(Exodus 12:49) There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger
>who sojourns among you."
>(Leviticus 24:22) You shall have one law for the sojourner and for the
>native; for I am the LORD your God."
>(Numbers 15:16) One law and one ordinance shall be for you and for the
>stranger who sojourns with you."
>(Numbers 15:29) You shall have one law for him who does anything
>unwittingly, for him who is native among the people of Israel, and for the
>stranger who sojourns among them.
>You need to spend more time with Torah and less time on the computer : )
Please tell me where it says that Fred and other gentiles not living inIsreal
need to follow Shabbos.
Moshe Shulman
<peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>How many times do I have to post that I do not accept that canon? The
>decisions the Romans made are of no import to us.
So you don't accept the canon of Matthew?
>Just because men made mistakes copying (even intended) the books doesn't
>make them null and void.
There are nto errors, there are distortions.
>Look in the TANAKH and you will find many errors. Do you throw it away
>because of a few mistakes? I have MANY MORE than are here:
>David took seven hundred (2 Sam. 8:4), seven thousand (1 Chron. 18:4)
>horsemen
>from Hadadezer;
>Solomon made of a molten sea which contained 2,000 (1 Kings 7:26), 3,000 (2
>Chron. 4:5) baths;
>Ahaziah was 22 (2 Kings 8:26), 42 (2 Chron. 22:2) years old when he began to
>reign;
>Jehoiachin was 18 (2 Kings 24:8), 8 (2 Chron. 36:9) years old when he began
>to
>reign and he reigned 3 months (2 Kings 24:8), 3 months and 10 days (2 Chron.
>36:9);
>Saul's daughter, Michal, had no sons (2 Sam. 6:23), had 5 sons (2 Sam. 21:6)
>during her lifetime;
>Lot was Abraham's nephew (Gen. 14:12), brother (Gen. 14:14);
Let us assume all are true. (i.e. they are truly errors) Who cares? I don't
worship a book. Not just that, we are not dealing with anything having to do
with theology or false prophecies.
Moshe Shulman
>Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
>to
>> >his
>> >> ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried
>to
>> >> discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
>> Name me one dumb prophet.
>I've seen alot of dumb geniuses.
Two Pak: An oxymoron from an ectah moron.
Moshe Shulman
>Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
>> >Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
>> >> Bush, you may not have noticed this, but I answer each person according
>to
>> >his
>> >> ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried
>to
>> >> discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
>> There are many allusions to it in Proverbs.
>You are a liar.
>People may have gifts from G-D. But that has nothing to
>do with one having low or high IQ.
>As logn as you have 3 digit IQs, it is ok.
Two Pak can you count higher then 3 digits?
Moshe Shulman
>Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
>> If they saw him then they didn't need to ask if there ever was a Jesus.
>But
>> just because it is written in some book does not make it true. I dont'
>believe
>> in rabbits havign pocket watches.
>You don't know how to read my words.
>They saw him and they had hard time accepting him as real.
>So they wanted to create false reality by eliminating him.
If those who saw him didn't believe him, why should those who didn't see him?
>> >To give you a better understanding, have you ever seen "Phantom of the
>> >Opera"? In the musical, Christine constantly rejects Phantom as only a
>> Nope. Have no idea what that is. Sounds like somethign about the life of
>Jesus,
>> who probably was just a phantom of someones imagination.
>You are at the stage of self-denial.
ROTFL
>> >Q.2 should be answered by yourself, if Jesus was a make-belief (or fake
>> >as you would say) then there not much you should care. But it his story
>> >really was true, then it proves your religion to be false. Your eternity
>> >depends on it.
>> I don't care.
>Yes, you do.
ROTFL
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
>
> I do not betray my ancestors. I also do not accept the canon of the Goyim. I
> posted the books we accept.
>
But you included fictional books that are not accepted as well.
> We have no graven images. We worship God who is a Spirit.
OK but your other posting implied that you were an Xian as did the end
of the list of books.
>
> Somewhere along the way, hate entered the hearts of our people Israel. This
Known as Xianity
> hatred reached up to heaven. God sent His Son to heal us. For a time we
> rejoiced in Jerusalem and in the Diaspora. We rejoiced because God had kept
> his promise to us.
>
> But there were some that were not true Hebrews. There were some who were
> from Satan, and knew only hate and could not love. These we see even today.
> Both good and bad exist in every race and among every people.
>
> When you say that the NT is the cause of murdering my ancestors, I assume
> you are talking about the infamous quote "you are of your father the devil"?
> He was talking to a specific group there. He couldn't have meant all Hebrews
> because he would have been describing himself as well. Do you really think
Actually, that sentence would apply to him. There have been many "self
hating Jews" in our history to our shame and dismay from Dasan and
Aviram to Ravshakei, to the leaders of the Haskalah to TOmmy Lapid and
Aharon (not the Prime Minister Ehud) Barak.
> he thought his father was the devil? Do you really think he thought his
> Apostles were the sons of the devil? Do you think he really thought that the
> people who accepted him from among our people Israel were the children of
> the devil? Of course not! Get a grip. He was talking to a few men who were
> evil beyond belief.
Namely Paul and the apostles (sounds like a rock group)
>
> Do I think that the Roman Church was responsible for the death of many of
> us? YES! I do not think they represent Jesus any more than Rush Limbaugh
> represents the Democrats. Jesus taught Torah observance. The Roman religion
> even changed the day of worship to Sunday because they hated the Hebrew way
> so much. They worship statues and charms. They have nothing in common with
> us but in name only.
--
Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore" | Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
Jews are the fish, Torah is our water | Zovchai Adam, agalim yishakun
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
> > >Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
> to
> > >his
> > >> ability to understand. Two Pak gets what is on his level. I have tried
> to
> > >> discuss with him in the past, but he seems to have the IQ of a raisen.
> > >BTW, IQ is very misleading. At least, it is not biblical.
> >
> > There are many allusions to it in Proverbs.
>
> You are a liar.
> People may have gifts from G-D. But that has nothing to
> do with one having low or high IQ.
>
> As logn as you have 3 digit IQs, it is ok.
>
That depends on where the decimal point is placed in the three digits.
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
>
> should walk the way he walked. If he joins in the religion he is under the
> same law as us.
>
> There is only one law, not two. Here is some Torah for you to learn.
>
> (Exodus 12:49) There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger
> who sojourns among you."
>
> (Leviticus 24:22) You shall have one law for the sojourner and for the
> native; for I am the LORD your God."
>
> (Numbers 15:16) One law and one ordinance shall be for you and for the
> stranger who sojourns with you."
>
> (Numbers 15:29) You shall have one law for him who does anything
> unwittingly, for him who is native among the people of Israel, and for the
> stranger who sojourns among them.
>
Which means that any one who becomes a convert to Judaism is required to
follow the same laws as any other Jew. A nonJew on the other hand is
only required to follow the sven Lawas of Noach. These sentences
actually forbid following the false religion known as MJ or believing in
the fals god y'shu.
Peter @ The Upper Room
is ONE LAW.
--
Peter
(¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·><{{{'>
<'}}}><·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯)
(¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·><{{{'>
Moshe Shulman <Moshe...@chassidus.net> wrote in message
news:38c47ffe...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
> On Tue, 07 Mar 2000 01:33:44 GMT, "Peter @ The Upper Room"
> <peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >This is where you are wrong. If a man accepts Jesus' words as true then
he
> >should walk the way he walked. If he joins in the religion he is under
the
> >same law as us.
> >There is only one law, not two. Here is some Torah for you to learn.
> >(Exodus 12:49) There shall be one law for the native and for the
stranger
> >who sojourns among you."
> >(Leviticus 24:22) You shall have one law for the sojourner and for the
> >native; for I am the LORD your God."
> >(Numbers 15:16) One law and one ordinance shall be for you and for the
> >stranger who sojourns with you."
> >(Numbers 15:29) You shall have one law for him who does anything
> >unwittingly, for him who is native among the people of Israel, and for
the
> >stranger who sojourns among them.
> >You need to spend more time with Torah and less time on the computer : )
>
> Please tell me where it says that Fred and other gentiles not living
inIsreal
> need to follow Shabbos.
>
Peter @ The Upper Room
are joining his religion and are bound by his teachings which he says
includes TORAH.
(Matthew 5:17-20) "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the
prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. {18} For
truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a
dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. {19} Whoever then
relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be
called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them
shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {20} For I tell you, unless
your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never
enter the kingdom of heaven."
He may be false to you, but he is TRUE to me and hundreds of thousands of
Jews across the earth. Your opinion is not worth much here.
--
Peter
(¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·><{{{'>
<'}}}><·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯)
(¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·><{{{'>
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabb...@bcpl.net> wrote in message
news:38C4960E...@bcpl.net...
> "Peter @ The Upper Room" wrote:
> >
> > This is where you are wrong. If a man accepts Jesus' words as true then
he
> > should walk the way he walked. If he joins in the religion he is under
the
> > same law as us.
> >
> > There is only one law, not two. Here is some Torah for you to learn.
> >
> > (Exodus 12:49) There shall be one law for the native and for the
stranger
> > who sojourns among you."
> >
> > (Leviticus 24:22) You shall have one law for the sojourner and for the
> > native; for I am the LORD your God."
> >
> > (Numbers 15:16) One law and one ordinance shall be for you and for the
> > stranger who sojourns with you."
> >
> > (Numbers 15:29) You shall have one law for him who does anything
> > unwittingly, for him who is native among the people of Israel, and for
the
> > stranger who sojourns among them.
> >
>
BUSHBADEE
<eno...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Check with a dr. I think your dilusional.
>> What is worse you are beginning to sound like an anti semite to me.
>> You really do not want to do that.
>
>Why don't you check with your dr. instead?
>It seems you find antisemitism in just about anything.
>It's called, antisemiphobia.
>
I find anti semitism where it is.
If I found it in you I would send you this letter.
You screem, yell and rant against the jews.
Your are full of sound and fury, you signify nothing..
All your screaming and rage are for nought.
The only good thing about you is
You are like a short candle, soon to be burnt out and be gone in the
darkness.
Not a flicker left.
You hate the Jews and want to eliminate them because you think that by
killing all the Jews, you will eliminate their God.
You are feared of a God that demands good and moral behaviour, which non of
you have ever practices and which is a foreign concept to you.
You hate the Jews for bringing a God of morality to the world.
You hate the Jews for bringing a set of commandments to this world, by which
men may live together in peace.
You hate the Jews for bringing Dueteronomy to this world, on which most of
the laws of this plantet are based.
You hate the jews for all that they have accomplished, while you have sat in
your own offal complaining and hating.
You hate the Jews for their great accomplishmentsm, science, philosophy,
literature, art, and medicine and because you have not contributed any thing.
You sit in your dark holes spewing forth your hate like some sulfer fountain.
You can accomplish nothing because your mind is so full of vile hate that
there is no room for any thing positive.
You are doomed to sit in your septic tanks spitting out is effluences and
never doing anything which would lift you to the hights which Jews have
reached.
Instead of lighting a candle to brighten your darkness, you fume, rant and
rage. You curse your darknes, yet you love it.
You would destroy those who would brighten it.
Those who have been a beakon to Nations.
You are Jealous.
You are spiteful
You are hateful.
You are a laughing stock and the subject of continous ridicule.
You are either to thick and stupid to realize it or revel in the filth and
scorn poured on you.
You are pathetic peices of animal tissue that has never formed a coherent
mass and will never form into a human being.
You think that by killing the God of the Jews you will bring darkness and
void back to this world.
Your destiny is DOM, TZ'FAR-DAY-A, KEE-NEEM, O-ROV, DE-VER, SH'CHEEN, GO-ROD,
AR-BEH, VHO-SHECL, MA-KAS, AND FINALLY B'CHO-ROS.
You shall suffer the fate you wish for the jews as did Pharoh.
You shall return to the black reaches of hell which spawned you.
You are cursed.
Even now you slaughterl your own .
You shoot your own woman in the feet so that they can not flee from you.
You tear the babies from your own womans wombs.
You slit the throats of your own woman and children.
You kill in the name of your God.
The Jewish God does not allow such attrocities.
You hate the Jewish God for this.
You are cursed and the curse of the killing of the infants has already come
down on your head.
The angel of death walks among you and slaughters you by the hand of your own
clerics.
This your hate has brought down on you.
Not only do you slaughter your own, but in your agony you reach out to
slaughter all that is around you.,
In the end it will make no difference.
When this long passover is done, you shall not be, even a memory.
You are filth and dirt and as such deserve to be shunned and trampled under
foot.
You shall be ground into the dust and there shall be no one to remember you.
You are not fit company for man or beast and all will shun you.
In the end the God of the Jews will continue to reign and you shall be as if
you never had been.
amen.
Come Golani, tell me of my mother,
Come Roger tell me you do not know of the murder of 6 million jews which the
Nazi's freely admitted.
Come Tavish, read me from your false Torah.
In the end, it is all the same.
You are all less than the excrement of a dog.
You are lower than hell itself.
You shall suffer the fate which you have earned.
All your protests, insults, complaints will not change that..
Think of these words as you dance in the fires of hell.
When you get this letter you will know that I think you are a nazi.
And that is one of my nicer letters to nazi's, most are a lot more raunchy.
BUSHBADEE
<eno...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> I don't care.
>
>Yes, you do.
>
>Doo-Hwan Pak
>a son of the new covenant
>
>
I was wondering two pak .
What High school do you attend.?
dasf
Enoch
> I find anti semitism where it is.
> If I found it in you I would send you this letter.
My name is Doo-Hwan, Bush!
> You screem, yell and rant against the jews.
> Your are full of sound and fury, you signify nothing..
> All your screaming and rage are for nought.
.............
> The only good thing about you is
> You are like a short candle, soon to be burnt out and be gone in the
> darkness.
> Not a flicker left.
So is every human being.
> You hate the Jews and want to eliminate them because you think that by
> killing all the Jews, you will eliminate their God.
I don't hate Jews.
> You are feared of a God that demands good and moral behaviour, which non
of
> you have ever practices and which is a foreign concept to you.
I feel very native to God's commandments.
> You hate the Jews for bringing a God of morality to the world.
Once you stress morality too much, it is then you lose spirituality.
There's a balance to it, Bush.
> You hate the Jews for bringing a set of commandments to this world, by
which
> men may live together in peace.
Only in your head.
> You hate the Jews for bringing Dueteronomy to this world, on which most of
> the laws of this plantet are based.
Then now, how would you feel if you were rejected by your own people,
when you were trying to save them?
It is strange you understand above, but you don't understand how Jesus
feels.
> You hate the jews for all that they have accomplished, while you have sat
in
> your own offal complaining and hating.
..............
> You hate the Jews for their great accomplishmentsm, science, philosophy,
> literature, art, and medicine and because you have not contributed any
thing.
I hear ya.
> You sit in your dark holes spewing forth your hate like some sulfer
fountain.
> You can accomplish nothing because your mind is so full of vile hate that
> there is no room for any thing positive.
I hear ya.
> You are doomed to sit in your septic tanks spitting out is effluences and
> never doing anything which would lift you to the hights which Jews have
> reached.
further explanation requested.
> Instead of lighting a candle to brighten your darkness, you fume, rant and
> rage. You curse your darknes, yet you love it.
> You would destroy those who would brighten it.
> Those who have been a beakon to Nations.
A beacon to nations... well... so far only a controvery to the nations.
But things may change for better or worse.
> You are Jealous.
> You are spiteful
> You are hateful.
> You are a laughing stock and the subject of continous ridicule.
> You are either to thick and stupid to realize it or revel in the filth and
> scorn poured on you.
(Background chorus)
"You are spiteful~ You are hateful~"
> You are pathetic peices of animal tissue that has never formed a coherent
> mass and will never form into a human being.
(Background chorus)
"You are spiteful~ You are hateful~"
> You think that by killing the God of the Jews you will bring darkness and
> void back to this world.
I don't think people would prefer darkness, unless someone is evil.
> Your destiny is DOM, TZ'FAR-DAY-A, KEE-NEEM, O-ROV, DE-VER, SH'CHEEN,
GO-ROD,
> AR-BEH, VHO-SHECL, MA-KAS, AND FINALLY B'CHO-ROS.
Asherre! Ha-Bush!
> You shall suffer the fate you wish for the jews as did Pharoh.
> You shall return to the black reaches of hell which spawned you.
(Background chorus)
"You are spiteful~ You are hateful~"
> You are cursed.
> Even now you slaughterl your own .
> You shoot your own woman in the feet so that they can not flee from you.
(Background chorus)
"You are spiteful~ You are hateful~"
> You tear the babies from your own womans wombs.
> You slit the throats of your own woman and children.
Did Judaism support anti-abortion? I didn't know that.
> You kill in the name of your God.
> The Jewish God does not allow such attrocities.
> You hate the Jewish God for this.
>
> You are cursed and the curse of the killing of the infants has already
come
> down on your head.
>
> The angel of death walks among you and slaughters you by the hand of your
own
> clerics.
> This your hate has brought down on you.
>
> Not only do you slaughter your own, but in your agony you reach out to
> slaughter all that is around you.,
> In the end it will make no difference.
> When this long passover is done, you shall not be, even a memory.
(Background chorus)
"You are spiteful~ You are hateful~"
> You are filth and dirt and as such deserve to be shunned and trampled
under
> foot.
> You shall be ground into the dust and there shall be no one to remember
you.
> You are not fit company for man or beast and all will shun you.
(Background chorus)
"You are spiteful~ You are hateful~"
> In the end the God of the Jews will continue to reign and you shall be as
if
> you never had been.
>
> amen.
Thanks for the soliloque musical. It's been touching.
Doo-Hwan Pak
Reo
<peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
The Good and the Bad:
>I do not betray my ancestors. I also do not accept the canon of the Goyim.
Good. (Bad if you are a Goy.)
>I posted the books we accept.
Bad (Good if you are a member of a cult.)
>We have no graven images. We worship God who is a Spirit.
Good. (Bad if you consider Jesus to be God.)
>Somewhere along the way, hate entered the hearts of our people Israel. This
>hatred reached up to heaven. God sent His Son to heal us.
Bad. (Good if by "hate" you mean "suffering" and by "Son" you
"blessing.")
>For a time we rejoiced in Jerusalem and in the Diaspora. We rejoiced
>because God had kept his promise to us.
Good. (Bad if you believe his promise was Jesus.)
>When you say that the NT is the cause of murdering my ancestors, I assume
>you are talking about the infamous quote "you are of your father the devil"?
>He was talking to a specific group there. He couldn't have meant all Hebrews
>because he would have been describing himself as well. Do you really think
>he thought his father was the devil? Do you really think he thought his
>Apostles were the sons of the devil? Do you think he really thought that the
>people who accepted him from among our people Israel were the children of
>the devil? Of course not! Get a grip. He was talking to a few men who were
>evil beyond belief.
Good. (Bad if this passage was re-worked by the Church.)
>Jesus taught Torah observance.
Good. (Bad if his followers ignore his advice.)
>They have nothing in common with us but in name only.
Good. (Bad if you both worship the Nazarene as God).
>Peter
Reo
----
Do not lift your horns up high
in vainglorious bluster.
For what lifts a man comes not from the east
or the west or the wilderness;
For it is G-d who gives judgment;
He brings down one man, He lifts up another.
There is a cup in AD-NAI’s hand
with foaming wine fully mixed;
From this He pours;
All the wicked of the earth drink,
draining it to the very dregs.
As for me, I will declare forever,
I will sing a hymn to the G-d of Jacob.
Psalm 75
Bob Felts
> Nothing. The books they accept as scripture are wrong though. Paul taught
> against the Torah and so opposed God. He was from Satan. If you accept
> Paul, you reject the teaching of Jesus.
Not at all. Both were in 100% complete agreement.
>
> (Matthew 5:17-20) "Think not that I have come to abolish the Torah and
> the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. {18} For
> truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a
> dot, will pass from the Torah until all is accomplished. {19} Whoever then
> relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall
> be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches
> them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {20} For I tell you,
> unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you
> will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
>
a) Paul didn't "abolish" the Law -- you simply neither understand
the purpose of the Law, nor do you understand what God does for
each believer.
b) How does a person's righteousness exceed "that of the scribes and
Pharisees"? If you answer, "by deeds", then you disagree with both
Jesus and Paul.
__|_____
| Bob Felts
| wr...@stablecross.com
| http://www.mindspring.com/~wrf3
Bob Felts
> On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 18:33:00 -0500, John F. Nixon <jni...@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
> >On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:56:33 GMT, "Peter @ The Upper Room"
> ><peterup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>I do not betray my ancestors. I also do not accept the canon of the
> >>Goyim. I posted the books we accept.
> >What's wrong with the goyim?
>
> Fred, he doesn't realize that the G-d of the Tenach does not consign all
> the non-Jews to the holy BBQ in the sky. G-d is much better then the NT
> makes him out to be.
>
Care to tell us where you find your little assertion that the NT teaches
that God consigns all non-Jews to the "holy BBQ in the sky"? It seems
to me that you understand neither God, man, nor hell.