Why was Jesus crucified?
David
http://www.pesherofchrist.infinitesoulutions.com/index6.html
"The first question that arises is: Why was Jesus crucified?
Was it because he was a good man - sinless in fact- who
during a very short teaching ministry said wise things that
other Jews had also said? Or because he performed
remarkable miracles of healing, helping many people?
For no legal reason that is ever given, the Jews seized
him and arranged for Pontius Pilate to crucify him.
Pilate, administering Roman justice, threw in a couple
of thieves and executed them also, although it would be
contrary to the Roman system of law to give capital
punishment for any but the most serious crimes."
<<<~A John 3:16 Whosoever~>>>
> "The first question that arises is: Why was Jesus crucified?
> Was it because he was a good man - sinless in fact- who
> during a very short teaching ministry said wise things that
> other Jews had also said? Or because he performed
> remarkable miracles of healing, helping many people?
> For no legal reason that is ever given, the Jews seized
> him and arranged for Pontius Pilate to crucify him.
> Pilate, administering Roman justice, threw in a couple
> of thieves and executed them also, although it would be
> contrary to the Roman system of law to give capital
> punishment for any but the most serious crimes."
Jesus was crucified because it fulfilled prophecy concerning the
Messiah (see how simple that was?).
Terry Cross
Heh, read Deuteronomy 13. The loving father god of Jesus was
obviously not the same God as angry, jealous, punishing, racist
Jehovah. And the Pharisees knew it and they had their instructions.
Also, Jesus poked the Pharisees in the ribs with their own
hypocrisies. That by itself guaranteed the death sentence. But Jesus
also "defiled" the Temple, and that too is a punishable by death. If
you read some of the Gospels, you find the Sanhedrin hired Judas
within a few days of the Temple incident.
TCross
David
>...
> Heh, read Deuteronomy 13. The loving father god of Jesus was
> obviously not the same God as angry, jealous, punishing, racist
> Jehovah. And the Pharisees knew it and they had their instructions.
>
> Also, Jesus poked the Pharisees in the ribs with their own
> hypocrisies. That by itself guaranteed the death sentence. But Jesus
> also "defiled" the Temple, and that too is a punishable by death. If
> you read some of the Gospels, you find the Sanhedrin hired Judas
> within a few days of the Temple incident.
>
> TCross
You have more in common with Kelly, a woman Christian
minister and professor of religious studies, than you realize.
Your take on the NT account of the crucifixion is the same
as hers, based as it is on a surface reading of the text.
I invite you to review the link I gave for Dr. Thiering's full
explanation, which is radical but well evidenced. I believe
it to be correct.
(Dr. Thiering is an Australian scholar of the Dead Sea Scrolls
and Christian Origins.)
saint...@hotmail.com
The real question, Terry, is not why did the Jews want to crucify
Jesus, but why did Jesus allow them to crucify Him? The relevant
passages are:
John 19
[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest
thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release
thee?
[11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me,
except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me
unto thee hath the greater sin.
[12] And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews
cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's
friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
By His own testimony, Jesus was crucified by the spiritual force that
came through the Jews and probably is still coming through them to
this day. Was that spiritual force JHVH? Or was it Satan? There are
many possibilities and a true analysis might be very difficult,
requiring more persistence to uncover than the JFK or RFK or MLK or MX
assassinations. One must be careful not to judge G-D by human
standards of good and evil. G-D's purpose may be more to teach us to
transcend this world than to improve this world. Still, the issue of
racism and deception to cover up the racism looms large in the history
of the Jews. Such a double standard seems very difficult if not
impossible to rationalize in any legitimate way. It is the ten
thousand pound gorilla in the foyer that no one wants to acknowledge
as real.
Robert Epstein
Pilate was not a Jew.
The Jews did not crucify Jesus.
"The Jews" as a body did not want to crucify Jesus.
Both the Jewish elders who assented to his crucifixion after the issue
was thrown back to them by the Roman authorities AND Jesus' followers
were Jewish, so there is no "The Jews" who wanted to cruficy anyone.
Throughout most of history, the Jews have been persecuted within every
society in which they have existed. To say that they have been guilty
of racism and covering up racism is an amazing distortion.
You are a foolish and inaccurate anti-semite.
Robert
- - - - - - - - -
saint...@hotmail.com
Agamemnon
"David" <pchris...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:453d9e08-2310-4a39...@d62g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Dr. Thiering's official website
> http://www.pesherofchrist.infinitesoulutions.com/index6.html
>
> "The first question that arises is: Why was Jesus crucified?
WRONG!
The first question that arises is was there a Jesus.
Answer: Jesus was a common name.
The second question that arises is could the biblical account have been
based on more than one person called Jesus.
Answer: Yes
Which totally debunks, demolishes and negates the paragraph below.
> Was it because he was a good man - sinless in fact- who
> during a very short teaching ministry said wise things that
> other Jews had also said?
No. The Jesus that was crucified was a political enemy of the Jewish
priesthood which was spilt into warring factions responsible for murder,
mafia crime syndication and terrorism. READ SOME HISTORY BOOKS!
>Or because he performed
> remarkable miracles of healing, helping many people?
No. That was a different Jesus from Galilee who studied to be a doctor and
was doing his job of healing people.
> For no legal reason that is ever given, the Jews seized
> him and arranged for Pontius Pilate to crucify him.
> Pilate, administering Roman justice, threw in a couple
> of thieves and executed them also, although it would be
> contrary to the Roman system of law to give capital
> punishment for any but the most serious crimes."
So we are back to the most logical conclusion. THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE
JESUS!
Including a doctor, a terrorist, a priest, a plagiarised Indian God, Krishna
who fled his homeland as a baby because he was sentenced to death along with
every child under 2 years of age, another plagiarised Indian Demi-God,
Buddha who received gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh and was visited by
shepherds, plagiarised Egyptian and Babylonian Gods, Osiris and Tammuz who
rose from the dead, a plagiarised Cypriot/Phoenician God killed by a wild
boar who punched a hole in his side with one of it's tusks who also rose
from the dead, Adonis/Adonai, all of which were combined together to make
the Legend of Jesus Christ.
Day Brown
dare you to read Schoenfield's "The Passover Plot". Not only was he a
superb Biblical scholar, with complete access to the Dead Sea Scrolls,
but he also brings a sociological and political understanding to what
was going on in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.
First, read about the Essene "Righteous One". Jesus took it as
prophecy, not history, and entered Jerusalem at Passover to fulfill
it. And in that prophecy, there was no need for him to die on the
cross, merely to suffer on it. which is what he had Judas arrange for
him.
If the Jews had wanted Jesus punished for blasphemy, they would have
*stoned* him, which is what the Torah says to do. Crucifixion was a
Roman punishment, done by Romans to demonstrate that they were in
power. Not the Jews. If there was a mob outside hollering to Pilot to
"Crucify him!". they were Romans, not Jews. No Jew would ask for that,
anymore than Jews would ask for execution done in an Egyptian or
Persian style. Cultures have rules for how execution is spozed to be
done. Its part of their self identity.
Roman law also was that the crucified body belonged to the state, and
was spozed to stay up on the cross until the crows got done eating it.
This was a real big deal in Roman times; they knew how the Jews and
other cultures felt the body had to be properly handled for there to
be an afterlife, and if that was not done, the spirits would haunt.
The Roman soldiers were bribed by Judas so that Jesus could be taken
down off the cross before he died. And having fulfilled the Essene
prophecy, Jesus disappeared back into Essene obscurity. Later authors
morphed the story with that of the Native European 'dying god'. But
even that would not have worked, however it was the Christians who let
Constantine name the bishops, which no other self respecting religion
would do. And with the power of the state behind it, it spread.
saint...@hotmail.com
> On Mar 29, 7:27 pm, saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:> You lie with every breath.
>
> You want the truth? You cant handle the truth.
Your character is about to be convicted.
Robert Epstein
What a stupidly ignorant thing to say.
Promoting anti-semitism is the lie.
Believe me, you are not unique in that,
it is a common sport.
saint...@hotmail.com
Judaism is racist. I am anti-racist, and I encourage everyone to find
out the truth about the racism inherent within Judaism.
Immortalist
>
> You want the truth? You cant handle the truth. but I never the less
> dare you to read Schoenfield's "The Passover Plot". Not only was he a
> superb Biblical scholar, with complete access to the Dead Sea Scrolls,
> but he also brings a sociological and political understanding to what
> was going on in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.
>
> First, read about the Essene "Righteous One". Jesus took it as
> prophecy, not history, and entered Jerusalem at Passover to fulfill
> it. And in that prophecy, there was no need for him to die on the
> cross, merely to suffer on it. which is what he had Judas arrange for
> him.
>
> If the Jews had wanted Jesus punished for blasphemy, they would have
> *stoned* him, which is what the Torah says to do. Crucifixion was a
> Roman punishment, done by Romans to demonstrate that they were in
> power. Not the Jews. If there was a mob outside hollering to Pilot to
> "Crucify him!". they were Romans, not Jews. No Jew would ask for that,
> anymore than Jews would ask for execution done in an Egyptian or
> Persian style. Cultures have rules for how execution is spozed to be
> done. Its part of their self identity.
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin_Trial_of_Jesus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion
Robert Epstein
Nothing you have said gives any evidence of racism within Judaism. You
are just making bigoted assertions.
Robert
- - - - - - - - - - -
Terry Cross
How can anyone understand it? Every third word is "pesher" and that
means nothing. Perhaps it is a borrowing from some desert tribal
language, but it means nothing in English.
TCross
Terry Cross
Pilate did not crucify Jesus.
> "The Jews" as a body did not want to crucify Jesus.
The "Jews" were many bodies, as indicated by the plural form of the
word.
> Both the Jewish elders who assented to his crucifixion after the issue
> was thrown back to them by the Roman authorities AND Jesus' followers
> were Jewish, so there is no "The Jews" who wanted to cruficy anyone.
According to the Gospels, no Romans wanted to kill Jesus, either. Now
you REALLY have to wonder Why Jesus was crucified?
> Throughout most of history, the Jews have been persecuted within every
> society in which they have existed.
What do you say about a school child who gets into fights wherever he
goes, in every classroom, in every school? What do you say when ever
teacher complains about him? Do you imagine it is everyone else's
fault? When the fellow grows up, he goes from city to city and state
to state, and everywhere he goes he gets into trouble with the police
until he has an arrest record as long as your arm.
Should we presume that every cop, teacher, and school child has joined
a conspiracy to persecute the boy? Isn't that a rather too-elaborate
conspiracy theory?
TCross
Terry Cross
>
> You want the truth? You cant handle the truth. but I never the less
> dare you to read Schoenfield's "The Passover Plot".
Another Jew's opinion on the TRUTH about Jesus? Good grief. And no
axe to grind here either, I suppose.
> Not only was he a
> superb Biblical scholar,
Oh, no doubt. Magnum cum laude from the nearest yeshiva, no doubt.
> with complete access to the Dead Sea Scrolls,
There's a tip-off right there. They have been the exclusive property
of the Telaviv University since the day they were discovered.
> but he also brings a sociological and political understanding to what
> was going on in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.
How? Did he vote in the elections?
> First, read about the Essene "Righteous One". Jesus took it as
> prophecy, not history, and entered Jerusalem at Passover to fulfill
> it. And in that prophecy, there was no need for him to die on the
> cross, merely to suffer on it. which is what he had Judas arrange for
> him.
And here we go into The Last Temptation of Christ. What a bore.
TCross
saint...@hotmail.com
You have not been following the discussion hollowhead. Nor are you
aware of what goes on around you. A Zen Buddhist you are? Nay, a
braying donkey you are. I cannot discuss serious matters with a
donkey. Sorry. Go back to counting your breath, from one to ten, for
the ten commandments we all know a love so well.
David
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do your own homework on the official Thiering website
to learning her methodology with pesher.
WARNING - highly technical
Finding the Pesher - Introduction
http://www.pesherofchrist.infinitesoulutions.com/index3.html
Engineer
You can safely ignore anything David Christainsen writes
concerning Jesus, the Bible, or any events of 2000 years
ago. All of his claims are based solely on the completely
discredited "pesher" theory of Barbara Thiering. He will
send you on various wild goose chases and demand that you
read various books and webpages that never contain what
he says they do, but the fact is that Barbara Thiering's
theories are easy to understand and easy to disprove.
The best way to show this is to take one small example
and ask some basic questions about it. It should be
noted that neither Barbara Thiering nor any of her
followers have been able to answer the following simple
and quite reasonable questions.
Whiskers wrote:
> Engineer wrote:
>
>> Here we find some classic Barbara Thiering:
>>
>> Somehow (method not explained, we have to take her
>> assertions on faith), she starts with the following biblical
>> passage...
>>
>> "And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and
>> John, and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves;
>> and he was transfigured before them, and his garments became
>> glistening, intensely white, as no fuller on earth could
>> bleach them. And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses;
>> and they were talking to Jesus. And Peter said to Jesus,
>> 'Master, it is well that we are here; let us make three
>> booths, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.'
>> For he did not know what to say, for they were exceedingly
>> afraid. And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out
>> of the cloud, 'This is my beloved Son; listen to him.' And
>> suddenly looking around they no longer saw anyone with them
>> but Jesus only." -Mark, Chapter 9, verses 2-8
>>
>> ...and through her Magical Mystery Transmogrifying Pesher
>> Technique, somehow pulls the following "hidden pesher
>> meaning" for the above passage out of her arse:
>>
>> "On a Day of Atonement, the day when only the high priest
>> could enter into the Holy of Holies, Jesus, a mere layman,
>> seized the high priest's vestments, dressed himself in them,
>> and proceeded to carry out the atonement ritual as if he
>> were the high priest."
>>
>> Source:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/1624
>>
>> There is only one way to get the latter out of the former.
>> Drugs. Lots and lots of hallucinogenic psychedelics drugs.
>
> When Thiering decides that a word means something different
> from what everyone else thinks it means, and when she says
> that something is 'just so', then for the true believer that
> is proof enough. Apparently.
>
> I can't help having a nagging suspicion that if an itinerant
> teacher from the sticks with a reputation for thumbing his
> nose at the temple authorities and with no priestly status,
> even tried to get near the High Priest during an important
> ceremony in the inner courts of he Temple, he'd find himself
> buried under a big heap of very angry guards and servants.
>
> Or did his disciples have a battle with the Temple guards,
> right there in the Temple, and capture and subdue the High
> Priest and disrobe him so that Jesus could violate the inner
> sanctum? All that with not one word of such infamy ever
> leaking out to be mentioned by the likes of Josephus, and
> with Jesus and his disciples surviving and escaping and
> being allowed to continue their activities unmolested?
Science is based on the idea that one scientist can
replicate and confirm the work of another scientist.
I publicly challenge Barbara Thiering or any of her
followers to explain her "pesher method" so that a
qualified scholar can apply it the the transfiguration
passage in Mark Chapter 9 and independently come up
with the "hidden pesher meaning" of Jesus stripping
the Jewish High Priest naked and carrying out the
atonement ritual in his place. Until this is done,
I proclaim on the authority of the Flying Spaghetti
Monster that Barbara Thiering's theories are hereby
officially refuted.
BTW, Barbara Thiering herself has asked David to
please be silent and to stop bothering us with his
attempts to push her theories down our throats:
"I am prepared to say that David Christainsen does
indeed have a problem of obsessiveness, and in
fact is not a fully reliable source on the detail
of the pesher. To communicate it ineffectively by
dominating in such a way actually does damage, and
I would be grateful if he would learn the Quaker
art of silence! ... You may quote my opinion."
-Barbara Thiering
Any response by David Christainsen to this post
that fails to answer the above questions should
also be ignored.
cactus
saint...@hotmail.com
> saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Judaism is racist. I am anti-racist, and I encourage everyone to find
> > out the truth about the racism inherent within Judaism.
>
> And yet you claim to be Jewish!
Is it so unbelievable - an anti-racist Jew?
cactus
Not at all. It's just that you are not among them because you are not
Jewish.
David
> On Mar 29, 7:27 pm, saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:> You lie with every breath.
>
> You want the truth? You cant handle the truth. but I never the less
> dare you to read Schoenfield's "The Passover Plot". Not only was he a
> superb Biblical scholar, with complete access to the Dead Sea Scrolls,
> but he also brings a sociological and political understanding to what
> was going on in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.
Originally, I bought into Schoenfield's version before discovering
Dr. Thiering's. I find her convincing that Jesus did not die on the
cross. This shakes up Christian Doctrine, which must morph into
something new.
The first order of business for the sincere student of Christian
Origins is to get her take on the ESSENES.
Who were the Essenes? - Their Connection to the First Christians
------ Thiering articles
Meaning of Essene
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/200
NT epistle to Hebrews = Essenes
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/472
Dating of the Teacher and his Rival, Part 2.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/998
Summary of the Parties at Qumran
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/1102
Trouble in Qumran Archaeology and DSS Scholarship
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/2592
Hasidim
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/2830
Terry Cross
What is this - hunt the easter egg? Where's Waldo?
What is the definition of Pesher, and why does Thiering not define
it? Or use an English word?
TCross
Terry Cross
> saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Mar 30, 9:41 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
> >> saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >>> Judaism is racist. I am anti-racist, and I encourage everyone to find
> >>> out the truth about the racism inherent within Judaism.
> >> And yet you claim to be Jewish!
>
> > Is it so unbelievable - an anti-racist Jew?
>
> Not at all. It's just that you are not among them because you are not
> Jewish.
We have just been treated to circular reasoning here, folks.
http://www.numeraire.com/download/WhatIsCircularReasoning.pdf
TCross
Robert Epstein
"The Jews" didn't either. Pilate forced the Jewish Authority to make
the decision. The Romans crucified him. They were in charge and had
final decision-making power. For political reasons, they preferred not
to have their handwriting on it.
>
>>"The Jews" as a body did not want to crucify Jesus.
>
>
> The "Jews" were many bodies, as indicated by the plural form of the
> word.
That's right, which is why blaming "The Jews" as a race for the
crucifixion of Jesus is ridiculous and unfair. Aside from the fact that
they were a minority power ruled by the Romans, who made the laws.
Crucifixion is a Roman punishment, not a Jewish one.
>>Both the Jewish elders who assented to his crucifixion after the issue
>>was thrown back to them by the Roman authorities AND Jesus' followers
>>were Jewish, so there is no "The Jews" who wanted to cruficy anyone.
>
>
> According to the Gospels, no Romans wanted to kill Jesus, either. Now
> you REALLY have to wonder Why Jesus was crucified?
Yeah, well, the Romans played political football with someone who was
controversial, and the Jewish authority was confused about it as well.
>>Throughout most of history, the Jews have been persecuted within every
>>society in which they have existed.
>
>
> What do you say about a school child who gets into fights wherever he
> goes, in every classroom, in every school? What do you say when ever
> teacher complains about him? Do you imagine it is everyone else's
> fault? When the fellow grows up, he goes from city to city and state
> to state, and everywhere he goes he gets into trouble with the police
> until he has an arrest record as long as your arm.
>
> Should we presume that every cop, teacher, and school child has joined
> a conspiracy to persecute the boy? Isn't that a rather too-elaborate
> conspiracy theory?
>
> TCross
I don't see any merit to your analogy, particularly as throughout the
European diaspora, the Jewish minorities always attempted to make a
living and live in peace, never instigated any of the horrific violence
that has been visited against them. My grandfather was a tailor - when
he was a young man his family was desperately poor and they lived in a
Jewish ghetto in the Ukraine with no contact with non-Jewish Christians.
So please explain how they were to blame when the Cossacks came riding
into their town repeatedly, raping women, shooting young men and why
they drowned my Grandfather's cousin in a pond for fun? It is quite
possible for those who are prejudiced and hateful to persecute a race in
a country where they have no power, without any good reason, just
because they want a scapegoat for their aggression, or don't like them
because of historical prejudice. This was certainly the case in Nazi
Germany, where the Jews enjoyed a cultured and peaceful existence before
the rise of Hitler. It also does not behoove anyone to blame the victim
when a whole race is attempted to be wiped out by those who hate them.
My Grandfather's family - all who stayed behind and did not come to the
U.S. before WW II, were wiped out, murdered by the Nazis. No, I do not
blame the Jews for the aggression against them throughout history, much
of it because they were nomadic, or merchants who travelled to sell
their wares and were not accepted within the foreign countries in which
they lived and travelled, or because they are wrongly blamed for the
murder of Christ.
> To say that they have been guilty
>
>>of racism and covering up racism is an amazing distortion.
>>
>>You are a foolish and inaccurate anti-semite.
>>
>>Robert
-------------------------------
David
> it? Or use an English word?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
From my Christian Origins Internet Forum:
Index BT - her articles
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/3088
Extract item ---
Pesher of NT books theory 193, 195, 322, 354, 358, 483, 1010,
1011,1057, 1373, 1501,1773, 1777,
1853, 2694, 3057 ; word, pronunciation 3030, 3042; continuing
knowledge
of 1273, 1303, 3000, 3072
So, here are the MSG #s that you enter at the top of the FORUM page
next to the Search Facility. Now, you are off to a great start!
OK, here's a more gentle approach --- let's define Thiering Pesher
first!
MEANING OF PESHER
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/193
Understanding pesher. Part 1, the Theory
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/1010
Understanding Pesher. Part 2. The Concealed History
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/1011
For fun, here's a article in an argument between scholars - Thiering
and Goranson - dealing ultimately with objective Pesher in the NT
text.
"Not plausible?"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/4428
Finally, a conversational Q & A on how scholars may plug into the
Pesher etc.
On Methodology
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/2694
OK, have at it! Don't hesitate to ask me questions!
JTEM
Thank you, "David," for crossposting this bullshit
to a number of inapproriate groups. You are truly
a douchebag.
Robert Epstein <vze25...@verizon.net> wrote:
> That's right, which is why blaming "The Jews" as a
> race for the crucifixion of Jesus is ridiculous and
> unfair.
"Jews" aren't a race, and never were. "Jewish" could be
argued to be an /ethnic/ group (more or less), but "race"
is idiotic.
Secondly, the bible -- pretty much all of the bible -- is
hog wash. If we define Jesus as "Jesus as described
in the bible" than Jesus is a fictional character, and
NOBODY is responsible for the crucifixion of people
who don't exist.
Engineer
"Pesher" is a real term, but it describes something other than
what Thiering means when she uses the word. She uses it to
signify a hidden meaning that onl she can see which you are
supposed to accept as truth through blind faith.
You can safely ignore anything David Christainsen writes
concerning Jesus, the Bible. or any events of 2000 years
Any response by David Christainsen that fails to
answer the above questions -- he keeps sending
people on wild goose chases by demanding that
they read various books and web pages that never
contain what he says they do rather than giving
a straight answer -- should also be ignored.
Robert Epstein
"bray not me, baby."
- Telly Savalas as Cassius
but whatever....
Robert
= = = = = = = =
Robert Epstein
Well there are plenty of those - Jews in the forefront of the civil
rights movement in the U.S.; over half the Jews in Israel promoting the
peace movement and trying to stop their ridiculous government [like
ours] from mistreating the Palestinians.
What the fuck do you know anyway? You never cite a fact, never speak
about a specific; just spout your stupid lies.
You are the racist!
Terry Cross
> Thank you, "David," for crossposting this bullshit
> to a number of inapproriate groups. You are truly
> a douchebag.
>
> Robert Epstein <vze25...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > That's right, which is why blaming "The Jews" as a
> > race for the crucifixion of Jesus is ridiculous and
> > unfair.
I have always thought it was ridiculous, too. I wish the Jews would
get over it. It seems to give them a sour attitude.
TCross
cactus
pjnudnik is not Jewish. He therefore cannot be an "anti-racist Jew."
> TCross
inv...@example.com
I have a way of figuring out which of you is a racist, idiot, etc.
Whichever of you keeps posting flames about jews/racism/etc to...
soc.religion.quaker,
soc.history.ancient,
alt.messianic,
alt.philosophy
...is everything that the other flamer calls him.
Whichever of you starts posting to the newsgroup he actually
reads isn't.
That's because the same attitude that says "I don't care
who I annoy with my off-topic posts" also says "I don't
care who I annoy with my racism."
Clear?
cactus
And yet he claims to be Jewish!
curmudgeon
"There are no enemies in science just anomalies"
*CUR*
saint...@hotmail.com
It sounds like you are developing another obsession with me, Robert.
Would you like to suck me off again?
Terry Cross
Mose ha' spoke, 'n don' non' a youse niggas sniggah a' d'Mose. Y'all
jes' shuffle 'long 'cus d'Mose done spoke.
TCross
Terry Cross
What is his mother's maiden name, Cactus? And his grandmother's
maiden name? This is a deeper subject than you allow.
TCross
cactus
He himself has said that his father is Jewish, but not his mother. He
is therefore not Jewish.
Robert Epstein
It's a sour subject, when people continue to bring it up. Other than
that, I'm not that sour.
Robert
- - - - - - -
saint...@hotmail.com
You are a sour pussy.
Robert Epstein
Robert Epstein
can't deal with the subject matter, because you don't have a single fact
at your disposal. when challenged you revert to bullshit.
Robert
- - - - - - - - - - - -
saint...@hotmail.com
No, it was definitely you who sucked so hard that I almost fell off
the floor. My relatives are not nearly so obsessed with me as you
seem to be. What gives? Nothing better to occupy your "mind."
saint...@hotmail.com
The bullshit is all yours darling. It only starts when you interject
your ugly self in the conversation. You missed all the facts and
substantial arguments. I will not repeat them just for you. However
obsessed you may be with me, I find you a total bore.
Don Stockbauer
David
> Thank you, "David," for crossposting this bullshit
> to a number of inapproriate groups. You are truly
> a douchebag.
You are a bully.
Used To Be Your Bellman
"Don Stockbauer" <donsto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2112d834-9429-44b6...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Illegal parking?
Crucifixion's too bloody good for them.
Used To Be Your Bellman
ZerkonX
> By His own testimony, Jesus was crucified by the spiritual force that
> came through the Jews and probably is still coming through them to this
> day
No.
From the earliest times of Christianity the main reason given was to die
for 'our sins'. Anyone who was actually involved in the event is beside
this point and served this purpose.
Turning this into some racial rant is your own doing.
cactus
> He had pull.
>
>
Especially with gravity...
saint...@hotmail.com
NO. The lie you present was invented by the same Pharisees that
killed Jesus. They knew that He might be G-D better than anyone, but
at that late date in the Jewish demise, they didn't care - they would
rather kill G-D than relinquish what control they had left. They had
what might be called a scorched earth policy: if things wouldn't go
their way, vis-a-vis the type of Messiah that would emerge, they would
rather they wouldn't go at all. They committed national suicide and
the masses of Jews followed them over the cliff. By killing
Moschiach, they killed the Jewish nation, once and for all, with a
strike right through the heart. What is left today does not resemble
the Judaism of old in any respect. What is left is just dogma and
racism.
Anyone who actually reads the Talmud and the writings of Maimonides,
for instance, knows that Judaism is very strongly racist, more
strongly than any other religion or belief system on earth. If you
deny that, you are either ignorant or a lying demagogue yourself. I
presume the latter. Anyone who tries to reason with the Jews on this
newsgroup, knows how demented they are and completely incapable of
dialogue or reason. All they do is present deadening dogma meant to
intimidate. Guess what: we are not intimidated. We stand over the
grave of your G-d and do the dance of Shiva Tandava.
Robert Epstein
I'm concerned about your anti-semitic statements, which is why I
challenged them. I don't give a shit about you personally one way or
the other. You don't seem to have anything to say about your reckless
claims, so you are diverting the conversation to ad hominem bullshit.
Obviously your assertions are incorrect, you don't want to admit that
you're full of it, so you are squealing and squirming to get out of it.
If you want to show that Jewish history is replete with Jewish racism,
rather than Jews themselves being oppressed, please give some evidence.
Otherwise, STFU.
Robert
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Robert Epstein
I'm not obsessed with you at all. In fact I find you slightly
disgusting and demented and can't wait to stop dealing with you. As
soon as you stop making empty claims about Jewish racism, I'll leave you be.
Terry Cross
> saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Mar 30, 9:41 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>
> >>saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >>>Judaism is racist. I am anti-racist, and I encourage everyone to find
> >>>out the truth about the racism inherent within Judaism.
>
> >>And yet you claim to be Jewish!
>
> > Is it so unbelievable - an anti-racist Jew?
>
> Well there are plenty of those - Jews in the forefront of the civil
> rights movement in the U.S.;
Fine thing, too. Jews not in their own country complaining about the
relations between two other races. That has all the signs of "Jews
making nasty trouble for Christians," which is how they have played
the whole incident ever since. It should inspire Americans to go to
Israel and tell the Israelis how to treat Palestinians.
> over half the Jews in Israel promoting the
> peace movement and trying to stop their ridiculous government [like
> ours] from mistreating the Palestinians.
"Their ridiculous government"??!! That is an interesting statement.
What do you find so ridiculous, just for the record.
TCross
Robert Epstein
> Anyone who actually reads the Talmud and the writings of Maimonides,
> for instance, knows that Judaism is very strongly racist, more
> strongly than any other religion or belief system on earth. If you
> deny that, you are either ignorant or a lying demagogue yourself. I
> presume the latter. Anyone who tries to reason with the Jews on this
> newsgroup, knows how demented they are and completely incapable of
> dialogue or reason. All they do is present deadening dogma meant to
> intimidate.
Okay, pj, I don't want to intimidate you, although I'm sure that would
be impossible anyway. Let's "reason" together, as you request above.
Give me a single quote from the Talmud that is racist, and give me one
example of racism in Judaism. I'm not asking you to review your entire
argument, which I apparently missed. How about just one piece of
evidence to show that you have something to back up your view. Is that
asking too much?
Now I will freely admit that there is institutional racism in the
treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government. I consider
that more of a horrible political situation than anything else, which
needs to be corrected. And there are definitely some Jews that are
racists, just as there are racists in every community. But show me that
Judaism itself is "strongly racist" as you assert above, and "more
strongly than any other religion or belief system on earth" as you say
above. Just give an illustration of each of those assertions, so we can
both be reasonable and talk about evidence instead of mere belief.
Robert
- - - - - - - - - -
Robert Epstein
> On Mar 30, 7:47 pm, Robert Epstein <vze25...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Mar 30, 9:41 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>Judaism is racist. I am anti-racist, and I encourage everyone to find
>>>>>out the truth about the racism inherent within Judaism.
>>
>>>>And yet you claim to be Jewish!
>>
>>>Is it so unbelievable - an anti-racist Jew?
>>
>>Well there are plenty of those - Jews in the forefront of the civil
>>rights movement in the U.S.;
>
>
> Fine thing, too. Jews not in their own country
What do you mean "Not in their own country?" Are you saying that
Jewish-Americans born here in the U.S. are not Americans? That this
isn't their country? What kind of frikkin nonsense is that?
complaining about the
> relations between two other races.
Are you saying that Christians are a race? You are really messed up in
the head, man.
That has all the signs of "Jews
> making nasty trouble for Christians," which is how they have played
> the whole incident ever since.
I don't think anyone has ever looked at it that way before. I never
heard a single racist complain that Jews were targetting them because
they were Christian. That is a new one. More like the racists would
often target outsiders for interfering in their local affairs, whether
they were Jewish or not.
It should inspire Americans to go to
> Israel and tell the Israelis how to treat Palestinians.
Of course we should do that anyway. The Palestinians are being treated
like animals. Israel has legitimate security issues, but its no excuse
to act as horribly to the average Palestinian as it does.
>
>>over half the Jews in Israel promoting the
>>peace movement and trying to stop their ridiculous government [like
>>ours] from mistreating the Palestinians.
>
>
> "Their ridiculous government"??!! That is an interesting statement.
> What do you find so ridiculous, just for the record.
The current Israeli administration is a war-mongering, inept,
incompetent bunch of macho assholes, just like their counterparts in
Washington, D.C., GW Bush and his asshole brigade, spreading idiocy
throughout the world. They bear some responsibility for the current
resurgence of Hamas in Gaza and elsewhere.
What they did in Lebanon was not only a horrific abuse of military
power, but set back the cause of Israel by decades. Lebanon was pretty
open to Israel in general before that, leaving aside the Hezbollah
movement. The current Israeli government radicalized a lot of people by
killing their relatives with their disproportionate assault.
Robert
= = = = = = = = = =
saint...@hotmail.com
All "published" Jews think there is something special about Jews vis-a-
vis the "Jewish soul." The literature commpares the souls of
Gentiles to the souls of animals, by comparison to the souls of Jews.
You may or may not know the doctrine of the five levels of soul:
Ruah, Nefesh, Neshamah, Chayah, and Yechidah. JHVH only exists within
this "Jewish soul," and so Gentiles can not know JHVH in the way that
Jews can. Although, JHVH is unquiqely the "Jewish G-D," he governs
all, and all must be obedient to JHVH, even though they cannot have
same intimate relationship to JHVH that Jews can. The Noahide Laws
enforce this unbalanced state of affairs. The Gentiles, to avoid
destruction, must acknowledge the Jewish G-D and avoid worshipping or
even achkonwledging any other God, including a God that might be
unique to the particular Gentiles. The Gentile nation must adopt a
judicial system that enforces the exclusive belief in the Jewish G-D,
thus destroying the separation of church and state. Now here's the
kicker: a Public Law was passed by Congress in 1991 honoring Rebbe
Schneerson on his birthday and proclaiming the Noahide Laws in
principle within the United States, thus destroying American
democracy, in principle. The only thing that has saved us is the
death of Rebbe Schneerson, which extinguished the possibility that he
could be regarded as the Messiah. Otherwise, we might have a Jewish
theocracy today, instead of an American democracy. This needs looking
into, but I believe we came as close to that dire end as to a literal
end during the Cuban Missle Crisis. We have only the true G-D of
Israel to thank for extinguishing the Antichrist, Rebbe Scheerson,
before he could rise to power.
VtSkier
Dear saint7peter,
Could you please refer me to a website which outline
what you have commented on above. I'd like to read
about this event without your (well-meaning)
editorializing. I'd like to read the law itself.
Thanks in advance.
saint...@hotmail.com
saint...@hotmail.com
URL: http://www.noahide.org/article.asp?Level=106&Parent=88
Public Law 102-14
102d CONGRESS, 1st Session
H. J. RES. 104
JOINT RESOLUTION
To designate March 26, 1991, as `Education Day , U.S.A. '.
Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values
and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which
our great Nation was founded;
Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of
society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the
Seven Noahide Laws;
Whereas without these ethical values and principles the edifice of
civilization stands in serious peril of returning to chaos;
Whereas society is profoundly concerned with the recent weakening of
these principles that has resulted in crises that beleaguer and
threaten the fabric of civilized society;
Whereas the justified preoccupation with these crises must not let the
citizens of this Nation lose sight of their responsibility to transmit
these historical ethical values from our distinguished past to the
generations of the future;
Whereas the Lubavitch movement has fostered and promoted these ethical
values and principles throughout the world;
Whereas Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch
movement, is universally respected and revered and his eighty-ninth
birthday falls on March 26, 1991;
Whereas in tribute to this great spiritual leader, `the rebbe,' this,
his ninetieth year will be seen as one of `education and giving,' the
year in which we turn to education and charity to return the world to
the moral and ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws;
and Whereas this will be reflected in an international scroll of honor
signed by the President of the United States and other heads of state:
Now, therefore, be it
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
States of America in Congress assembled, That March 26, 1991, the
start of the ninetieth year of Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, leader of
the worldwide Lubavitch movement, is designated as `Education Day,
U.S.A. '. The President is requested to issue a proclamation calling
upon the people of the United States to observe such day with
appropriate ceremonies and activities.
Approved March 20, 1991. Signed by George Bush, President of the
United States of America
VtSkier
Thank you. I'm adding another cross post to alt.religion.unitarian-univ
and see what further comment we can get. While I don't trust
anything promoted by the neo-conservative movement, this is not
as worrisome as other things that are happening in the U.S. I've
also trimmed alt.philosophy.zen on the theory that they might
not want to hear about this, or maybe they already know all there
is to know about it. At any rate, my newsreader wouldn't let me
simply add another address.
Robert Epstein
Well, thanks for discussing what you meant by "Jewish racism." I would
not call it that, as it is not prejudice against a particular race, but
more of an avowal of specialness for one's own race. I think many races
feel that way, not just the Jews. However, most Jews do not believe
that the Jewish people have a station above other peoples. That, I
think, is as fairly small phenomenon. No one in my family or friends
who are Jewish feel that way. However, I think among some of the
orthodox sects that feeling may indeed be there, although I still
wouldn't call it racism. More like grandiosity or triumphalism or
something like that. Racism seeks to explicitly make others inferior
under the law or within institutions. Just saying "Jews are special"
does not do this. There is some real racism among some Jews, and the
most glaring example is the treatment of Palestinians in some aspects of
Israeli-Palestinian life. Most Israelis however do not agree with this
mistreatment and want to correct it.
Robert Epstein
There is nothing legally binding in this resolution, which is neither a
law nor a statute nor an act of congress. It is merely an honorary
creation of an "Education Day" with no binding power upon anyone.
saint...@hotmail.com
It is a "Public Law" and a "Joint Resolution," so don't give us this
Orwellian doublespeak.
saint...@hotmail.com
I did not give you an example. You wanted stuff from the literature.
That is there, throughout the literature, but you'll have to read it -
I'm not going to read it for you. Please stfu until you do read the
actual literature for yourself. As always, you speak and accuse out
of total ignorance. Fuck you, Robert. You suck the big one.
Robert Epstein
Here is what the public law, or whatever it is, actually dictates, and
ONLY this:
That March 26, 1991, the
> > start of the ninetieth year of Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, leader of
> > the worldwide Lubavitch movement, is designated as `Education Day,
> > U.S.A. '. The President is requested to issue a proclamation calling
> > upon the people of the United States to observe such day with
> > appropriate ceremonies and activities.
There is no constriction in this pronouncement upon anyone to do
anything. It changes absolutely nothing in existing law and merely
creates a day of observance of "Education Day" and the values they have
assigned to it.
You don't even get the day off.
Robert Epstein
Then it can't have been yours. If you had said I suck the little one
then it could have possibly been you. I guess you just suck in general.
So fuck you too!
cactus
> On Mar 31, 5:59 am, ZerkonX <Z...@X.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 16:17:55 -0700, saint7peter wrote:
>>> By His own testimony, Jesus was crucified by the spiritual force that
>>> came through the Jews and probably is still coming through them to this
>>> day
>> No.
>>
>> From the earliest times of Christianity the main reason given was to die
>> for 'our sins'. Anyone who was actually involved in the event is beside
>> this point and served this purpose.
>>
>> Turning this into some racial rant is your own doing.
>
> NO. The lie you present was invented by the same Pharisees that
> killed Jesus. They knew that He might be G-D better than anyone, but
> at that late date in the Jewish demise, they didn't care - they would
> rather kill G-D than relinquish what control they had left. They had
> what might be called a scorched earth policy: if things wouldn't go
> their way, vis-a-vis the type of Messiah that would emerge, they would
> rather they wouldn't go at all. They committed national suicide and
> the masses of Jews followed them over the cliff. By killing
> Moschiach, they killed the Jewish nation, once and for all, with a
> strike right through the heart. What is left today does not resemble
> the Judaism of old in any respect. What is left is just dogma and
> racism.
And yet the people Israel live. Am Israel Chai!
>
> Anyone who actually reads the Talmud and the writings of Maimonides,
> for instance, knows that Judaism is very strongly racist, more
> strongly than any other religion or belief system on earth. If you
> deny that, you are either ignorant or a lying demagogue yourself. I
> presume the latter. Anyone who tries to reason with the Jews on this
> newsgroup, knows how demented they are and completely incapable of
> dialogue or reason.
It's just that we don't buy your particular brand of bullshit. It
didn't work for Jesus, Martin Luther or Mohammad. Did you think that you
would succeed where they failed?
saint...@hotmail.com
I see your obsession is getting deeper and deeper. Obsess away,
demon. Guessing the size of my dick - that is what you are reduced
to. What a moron.
saint...@hotmail.com
It is not about me or J or ML or M. It is about the Jewish racism as
actually recorded in the religious literature and reasoning of the
Jews. The fact that you must revert to ad hominem arguments only
gives further proof that the thesis is true.
Robert Epstein
hey, you brought it up in the first place, cocksucker. It's not my
fault that it's too small to see.
saint...@hotmail.com
Fantasize on. Your therapy session is being recorded.
cactus
Where's the ad hominem? The fact that I questioned your ability to be
Judaism's messiah? No need to question that - you haven't met any of
the requirements for the messiah as set forth in Tanakh.
Your best shot at messiahship is to preach on street corners in college
towns. You would attract young nubiles, who would probably call you
"God" especially in bed, after seeing your 12 inch peter.
Terry Cross
> Terry Cross wrote:
> > On Mar 30, 7:47 pm, Robert Epstein <vze25...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >>>On Mar 30, 9:41 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >>>>>Judaism is racist. I am anti-racist, and I encourage everyone to find
> >>>>>out the truth about the racism inherent within Judaism.
>
> >>>>And yet you claim to be Jewish!
>
> >>>Is it so unbelievable - an anti-racist Jew?
>
> >>Well there are plenty of those - Jews in the forefront of the civil
> >>rights movement in the U.S.;
>
> > Fine thing, too. Jews not in their own country
>
> What do you mean "Not in their own country?" Are you saying that
> Jewish-Americans born here in the U.S. are not Americans? That this
> isn't their country? What kind of frikkin nonsense is that?
The whole Western world prostituted itself to give the Jews a
"homeland." They permitted the butchery and expulsion of almost a
million people from their native lands, so heavily was the plaint
pushed that the Jews need a "homeland." To give the Jews a "homeland"
we permitted the Jews to conduct a holocaust of the Arabs.
Now it is true that many American and reform Jews thought Zionism was
a mistake, and some even said so. But that was back then, and this is
now. Most American Jews these days behave like foreign agents in
America - lobbying for financial and military aid for Israel, wars for
Israel, propaganda for Israel, political pressure on other states for
the benefit of Israel to the impoverishment and prostitution of
America.
After sixty years and trillions in gifts, you'd think Israel could
stand on its own feet. Yet we are still paying tribute as though we
were a conquered nation.
Those Jews who want two "homelands" should be asked to choose, and
then stick with their choice.
> > complaining about the
> > relations between two other races.
>
> Are you saying that Christians are a race? You are really messed up in
> the head, man.
No of course not. But Americans are largely a single people - or two
or three peoples. And the propaganda against Christians weighs in
heavily on the pretense that Christians are white Southern racists.
Like it or not, that is the propaganda.
OK, presuming that is your sincere heartfelt statement, I apologize to
you personally. You sound like a real American.
TCross
Terry Cross
> On Mar 30, 9:57 pm, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you, "David," for crossposting this bullshit
> > to a number of inapproriate groups. You are truly
> > a douchebag.
And thank you for reading it.
TCross
Terry Cross
That's pretty weasily, Robert. You have just excused White Racism.
> I think many races
> feel that way, not just the Jews.
Absolutely. Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, French, and many more. But
it is still racism.
> However, most Jews do not believe
> that the Jewish people have a station above other peoples. That, I
> think, is as fairly small phenomenon. No one in my family or friends
> who are Jewish feel that way.
Do NONE of them believe they belong to the "chosen people"? If they
do, it is racism. If not, you live in a very unusual pocket of Jews.
> However, I think among some of the
> orthodox sects that feeling may indeed be there, although I still
> wouldn't call it racism. More like grandiosity or triumphalism or
> something like that. Racism seeks to explicitly make others inferior
> under the law or within institutions. Just saying "Jews are special"
> does not do this.
Would you like some examples? Here is a selection:
http://www.daatemet.org/articles/article.cfm?article_id=119&lang=en
We have already mentioned the words of the Ra'avad with regards to an
animal slaughtered by a Gentile: "for the Gentiles are like
animals...and one who thinks of them as something [worthwhile] will
gather the wind in his fist."
... as Chazal said: 'You are called men and the nations are not called
men,' as though it were an ordinary thing for them, that the
comparison between Israel and the Gentiles is similar to the
comparison between man and animals who cannot speak.
The Maharal of Prague OBM, explains the saying of Rabbi Shimon bar
Yochai, "You are called men" in a number of places. In the book
Gevurot HaShem chapter 44 (page 167) he wrote: "...for even if all
human beings have a common shape, there still is a distinction...there
are nations who have more of a tendency towards the physical and their
actions testify to this, for they are inclined towards lust and
abominable things. This is evidence of their materialistic
nature...and as we find animals, which are like an intermediary
between man and the rest of the animal world, such as the
monkey...likewise there exist men -- who are not completely men.
E. Rabbi Abraham Issac HaCohen Kook, first chief Rabbi of Palestine:
In the book "Orot," Orot Yisrael chapter 5, article 10 (page 156),
Rabbi Kook wrote: "The difference between the Jewish soul, in all its
independence, inner desires, longings, character and standing, and the
soul of all the Gentiles, on all of their levels, is greater and
deeper than the difference between the soul of a man and the soul of
an animal, for the difference in the latter case is one of quantity,
while the difference in the first case is one of essential quality."
> There is some real racism among some Jews, and the
> most glaring example is the treatment of Palestinians in some aspects of
> Israeli-Palestinian life. Most Israelis however do not agree with this
> mistreatment and want to correct it.
Racism permeates both doctrine and practice, both historically and
present-day. Read the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gentiles.
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=G&search=gentile
Consider the doctrine that the greatest suffering in the war was
inflicted on the Jews. Consider the only people who demanded
retributions and received from Germany (Israel). Consider the
Holocaust monuments and museums throughout America, all without a
single memorial to the many millions more Americans, Ukrainians,
Austrians, Russians, Cossacks, French, British, and others who died -
unless they were Jewish (or maybe homosexual or Gypsy). The history
is twisted to represent that only the Jewish deaths mattered.
Racism is a very big problem in Judaism. Like a White Southerner who
does not SEE racism among his neighbors, you do not see racism in
yourself or your friends. How could you?
TCross
saint...@hotmail.com
>
> independence, inner desires, longings, character and standing, and the
> soul of all the Gentiles, on all of their levels, is greater and
> deeper than the difference between the soul of a man and the soul of
> an animal, for the difference in the latter case is one of quantity,
> while the difference in the first case is one of essential quality."
>
> > There is some real racism among some Jews, and the
> > most glaring example is the treatment of Palestinians in some aspects of
> > Israeli-Palestinian life. Most Israelis however do not agree with this
> > mistreatment and want to correct it.
>
> Racism permeates both doctrine and practice, both historically and
>
> Consider the doctrine that the greatest suffering in the war was
> inflicted on the Jews. Consider the only people who demanded
> retributions and received from Germany (Israel). Consider the
> Holocaust monuments and museums throughout America, all without a
> single memorial to the many millions more Americans, Ukrainians,
> Austrians, Russians, Cossacks, French, British, and others who died -
> unless they were Jewish (or maybe homosexual or Gypsy). The history
> is twisted to represent that only the Jewish deaths mattered.
>
> Racism is a very big problem in Judaism. Like a White Southerner who
> does not SEE racism among his neighbors, you do not see racism in
> yourself or your friends. How could you?
>
> TCross
Thank you so much, Terry, for illuminating a place that doesn't get
much illumination, namely the brain of Robert Epstein. What is
alarming about Jewish racism is that the Jews of high attainment ARE
tampering with spiritual, i.e. occult, powers, and they are using them
to promote their agenda of total racism. It is a scary combination,
because they seem to be able to fool most of the people most of the
time. We must really pray in all sincerity for the protection of the
true LORD of Israel, Jehoshua Moshiach, who died precisely for this
reason, to limit the Jewish misuse of the power of G-D, which would
otherwise destroy the human race. At this moment, its survival is
surely in the balance. After this manner pray ye:
Our father who art in heaven (KRIYA BABAJI NAGARAJ)
Hallowed be thy name (OM KRIYA BABAJI NAMA RUPA KALA DESA AUM)
Thy kingdom come (AUM SIVA SWAMINE NAMAHA, AUM GANA SWAMINE NAMAHA,
AUM SARVA SWAMINE NAMAHA, AUM PARA BRAHMANE NAMAHA)
Thy will be done (BABAJI JESUS KRISHNA)
On earth (JUDAH) as it is in heaven (ISRAEL)
All who do this prayer, with these meanings, will become Jews of the
New Covenant. So sayeth Saint Peter, the Vicar of Christ.
cactus
You are such a hoot.
Robert Epstein
> On Mar 31, 10:51 am, Robert Epstein <vze25...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Terry Cross wrote:
>>
>>>On Mar 30, 7:47 pm, Robert Epstein <vze25...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>On Mar 30, 9:41 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>Judaism is racist. I am anti-racist, and I encourage everyone to find
>>>>>>>out the truth about the racism inherent within Judaism.
>>
>>>>>>And yet you claim to be Jewish!
>>
>>>>>Is it so unbelievable - an anti-racist Jew?
>>
>>>>Well there are plenty of those - Jews in the forefront of the civil
>>>>rights movement in the U.S.;
>>
>>>Fine thing, too. Jews not in their own country
>>
>>What do you mean "Not in their own country?" Are you saying that
>>Jewish-Americans born here in the U.S. are not Americans? That this
>>isn't their country? What kind of frikkin nonsense is that?
>
>
> The whole Western world prostituted itself to give the Jews a
> "homeland." They permitted the butchery and expulsion of almost a
> million people from their native lands, so heavily was the plaint
> pushed that the Jews need a "homeland." To give the Jews a "homeland"
> we permitted the Jews to conduct a holocaust of the Arabs.
Most of the Palestinian holocaust was committed by other Arab countries,
who now have the attitude "Who me?"
> Now it is true that many American and reform Jews thought Zionism was
> a mistake, and some even said so. But that was back then, and this is
> now. Most American Jews these days behave like foreign agents in
> America - lobbying for financial and military aid for Israel, wars for
> Israel, propaganda for Israel, political pressure on other states for
> the benefit of Israel to the impoverishment and prostitution of
> America.
This is absolutely delusional. When you say "Most American Jews" you
are truly out of your mind. "Most American Jews" are just living their
lives and aren't lobbying for anything. You are talking about a few
powerful political groups that do not represent "American Jews" or even
most "Israeli Jews" who would like to have a balanced solution with the
Palestinians. Please don't say "Most American Jews" when it is patently
untrue and makes you a bigot when you say it.
>
> After sixty years and trillions in gifts, you'd think Israel could
> stand on its own feet. Yet we are still paying tribute as though we
> were a conquered nation.
>
> Those Jews who want two "homelands" should be asked to choose, and
> then stick with their choice.
That is also stupid. People of any background should live wherever they
please. Every country has some control over immigration but other than
that if a Jew or an Arab or a Palestinian or a Christian wants to live
in Israel, the U.S., or Mongolia, there's no reason why they shouldn't.
The U.S. is not a Jewish homeland, it is a mixture of various
interests all of which try to live as best they can, but which is
largely, greatly controlled by Christian interests, not Jewish ones.
>
>>> complaining about the
>>>relations between two other races.
>>
>>Are you saying that Christians are a race? You are really messed up in
>>the head, man.
>
>
> No of course not. But Americans are largely a single people - or two
> or three peoples. And the propaganda against Christians weighs in
> heavily on the pretense that Christians are white Southern racists.
> Like it or not, that is the propaganda.
Uh, wrong again! The prejudice is not that Christians are white
Southern racists, but that white Southerners are white Southern racists.
Sometimes that is true, sometimes not, but no one thinks that
"Christians" as a class are all white, Southern, or racist. Try to be a
little more thoughtful about what you say as you are throwing categories
around thoughtlessly.
Well, as much as I appreciate your provisional apology, based on the
possibility that I might be telling the truth about what I think, I
would very much object to the term "real American" the way you are using
it. I think that what makes America great is that it has the space to
allow people the freedom to have a variety of views, even yours, without
disqualifying anyone from being a "real" American. There are just
Americans, and they are all real, even if they disagree with you.
Robert Epstein
Not at all; white racists do not just avow specialness, but superiority
and disgust at other races, matched by acts of violence. Where that
appears in Israel's treatment of Palestinians I am equally against it.
But just saying "we are the chosen people" while obnoxious to some, is
not in itself racist.
>
>> I think many races
>>feel that way, not just the Jews.
>
>
> Absolutely. Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, French, and many more. But
> it is still racism.
No it's not. That is not the right term for "specialness" unless it is
matched by institutional advantage and violent suppression or non-equal
rights for other groups. It may still be seen as obnoxious however.
>
>
>>However, most Jews do not believe
>>that the Jewish people have a station above other peoples. That, I
>>think, is as fairly small phenomenon. No one in my family or friends
>>who are Jewish feel that way.
>
>
> Do NONE of them believe they belong to the "chosen people"? If they
> do, it is racism. If not, you live in a very unusual pocket of Jews.
Not at all. Large portions of the Jewish population are "humanists" who
believe in lifting up all people. It is a part of the Jewish cultural
tradition.
>
>>However, I think among some of the
>>orthodox sects that feeling may indeed be there, although I still
>>wouldn't call it racism. More like grandiosity or triumphalism or
>>something like that. Racism seeks to explicitly make others inferior
>>under the law or within institutions. Just saying "Jews are special"
>>does not do this.
>
>
> Would you like some examples? Here is a selection:
> http://www.daatemet.org/articles/article.cfm?article_id=119&lang=en
>
> We have already mentioned the words of the Ra'avad with regards to an
> animal slaughtered by a Gentile: "for the Gentiles are like
> animals...and one who thinks of them as something [worthwhile] will
> gather the wind in his fist."
Few Jews outside of the most Orthodox Orthodox would believe those
words. And many of the Orthodox do not feel that way either. Yes,
there are some groups who would agree with those words, but not many.
> ... as Chazal said: 'You are called men and the nations are not called
> men,' as though it were an ordinary thing for them, that the
> comparison between Israel and the Gentiles is similar to the
> comparison between man and animals who cannot speak.
>
> The Maharal of Prague OBM, explains the saying of Rabbi Shimon bar
> Yochai, "You are called men" in a number of places. In the book
> Gevurot HaShem chapter 44 (page 167) he wrote: "...for even if all
> human beings have a common shape, there still is a distinction...there
> are nations who have more of a tendency towards the physical and their
> actions testify to this, for they are inclined towards lust and
> abominable things. This is evidence of their materialistic
> nature...and as we find animals, which are like an intermediary
> between man and the rest of the animal world, such as the
> monkey...likewise there exist men -- who are not completely men.
>
> E. Rabbi Abraham Issac HaCohen Kook, first chief Rabbi of Palestine:
> In the book "Orot," Orot Yisrael chapter 5, article 10 (page 156),
> Rabbi Kook wrote: "The difference between the Jewish soul, in all its
> independence, inner desires, longings, character and standing, and the
> soul of all the Gentiles, on all of their levels, is greater and
> deeper than the difference between the soul of a man and the soul of
> an animal, for the difference in the latter case is one of quantity,
> while the difference in the first case is one of essential quality."
Those passages are indeed odious. They are not strictly "racist" as
they would not apply to a Gentile who converted to a Jew. That
converted Jew would have the same "race" but would now be among the
exalted, true?
It is more like religious prejudice, and I agree it is wrong. Most Jews
would not ascribe to those statements.
>
>>There is some real racism among some Jews, and the
>>most glaring example is the treatment of Palestinians in some aspects of
>>Israeli-Palestinian life. Most Israelis however do not agree with this
>>mistreatment and want to correct it.
>
>
> Racism permeates both doctrine and practice, both historically and
> present-day. Read the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gentiles.
> http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=G&search=gentile
>
> Consider the doctrine that the greatest suffering in the war was
> inflicted on the Jews. Consider the only people who demanded
> retributions and received from Germany (Israel). Consider the
> Holocaust monuments and museums throughout America, all without a
> single memorial to the many millions more Americans, Ukrainians,
> Austrians, Russians, Cossacks, French, British, and others who died -
> unless they were Jewish (or maybe homosexual or Gypsy). The history
> is twisted to represent that only the Jewish deaths mattered.
I do think it is unique that the Jews as a religious and cultural group
were largely wiped off the face of the earth in great proportion. That
is indeed a horrific special station in the Holocaust. However, I am
not unaware of the horrors inflicted on other people, and among my
friends and family - my father served in WW II in France and Germany -
we speak just as much about the 12 million Russians who were killed as
the 6 million Jews and others.
However, the Cossacks can go fuck themselves. I do feel sorry for
everyone else.
> Racism is a very big problem in Judaism. Like a White Southerner who
> does not SEE racism among his neighbors, you do not see racism in
> yourself or your friends. How could you?
>
> TCross
That is bullshit. I see my prejudices and those of the people around me
as well. And when a Jewish person speaks prejudicially, I will call
them on it just as quickly as I do anyone else. And have done so on a
number of occasions.
saint...@hotmail.com
>
> Not at all. Large portions of the Jewish population are "humanists" who
> believe in lifting up all people. It is a part of the Jewish cultural
> tradition.
The road to hell ia paved with good intentions. What one believes
with the tiny insigificant portion of one's consious mind is NOT what
we are talking about. We are talking about racial archetypes that are
written deep within the souls of men. My father was a progressive
Jew, like those of whom you speak. But when the chips were down he
acted like the Jewish fascist that he was underneath his own professed
intentions. Nothing he could do could change the deep structure of
his Jewish psyche. The Jewish sages affirm this fact, only they see
only the positive and not the negative ramifications of this, as Terry
tried to explain to you.
Terry and I are not talking about individual Jews. We are not
speaking in an ad hominem fashion. We are talking about the deep
structures of Jewish thought and levels deeper than thought. These,
we believe, are relfected in the writings of the sages, the leaders of
the Jewish race, and not in the uninformed opinions of the man on the
street or the man in the newsgroup (in your case). Other Jews in
these newsgroups are also speaking on the archetypal level that we are
talking about. They at least begin to understand the meaning of
religion as pertaining to something other than the isolated or even
congregated individual. It pertains to the collective, of which you
are a part without your consent. It has to do with your conditioning
by both the outer world AND the inner world, when you go to sleep at
night and dream of things you know not.
VtSkier
We are the Borg...
The Jewish father fascist you speak about is
the result/victim of only his upbringing.
He acted like that because his father acted
like that and no other reason, racial or
otherwise. He indeed had no choice, but the
source was not being Jewish, it was being
human with a somewhat abusive father himself.
The point being that he could have gotten out
of it. He would have had to know a few things.
First, that he was being abusive. Many people
who are abusive as parents don't know/believe
that they are abusive.
Second, he would need to know that the behavior
is deleterious to his child. If he actually
knew this on some level, he would try not
to be abusive.
Third, above all else, he would need to want
to break the behavior pattern.
saint...@hotmail.com
VtSkier
Maybe, maybe not. Could you please tell me the
error of my ways/words?
Jerry Kraus
> On Mar 29, 2:39 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 2:06 pm, "<<<~A John 3:16 Whosoever~>>>"
>
> > <kaseybec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Mar 29, 1:39 pm, David <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > "The first question that arises is: Why was Jesus crucified?
> > > > Was it because he was a good man - sinless in fact- who
> > > > during a very short teaching ministry said wise things that
> > > > other Jews had also said? Or because he performed
> > > > remarkable miracles of healing, helping many people?
> > > > For no legal reason that is ever given, the Jews seized
> > > > him and arranged for Pontius Pilate to crucify him.
> > > > Pilate, administering Roman justice, threw in a couple
> > > > of thieves and executed them also, although it would be
> > > > contrary to the Roman system of law to give capital
> > > > punishment for any but the most serious crimes."
>
> > > Jesus was crucified because it fulfilled prophecy concerning the
> > > Messiah (see how simple that was?).
>
> > Heh, read Deuteronomy 13. The loving father god of Jesus was
> > obviously not the same God as angry, jealous, punishing, racist
> > Jehovah. And the Pharisees knew it and they had their instructions.
>
> > Also, Jesus poked the Pharisees in the ribs with their own
> > hypocrisies. That by itself guaranteed the death sentence. But Jesus
> > also "defiled" the Temple, and that too is a punishable by death. If
> > you read some of the Gospels, you find the Sanhedrin hired Judas
> > within a few days of the Temple incident.
>
> > TCross
>
> The real question, Terry, is not why did the Jews want to crucify
> Jesus, but why did Jesus allow them to crucify Him? The relevant
> passages are:
>
> John 19
>
> [10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest
> thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release
> thee?
> [11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me,
> except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me
> unto thee hath the greater sin.
> [12] And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews
> cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's
> friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
>
> By His own testimony, Jesus was crucified by the spiritual force that
> came through the Jews and probably is still coming through them to
> many possibilities and a true analysis might be very difficult,
> requiring more persistence to uncover than the JFK or RFK or MLK or MX
> assassinations. One must be careful not to judge G-D by human
> standards of good and evil. G-D's purpose may be more to teach us to
> transcend this world than to improve this world. Still, the issue of
> racism and deception to cover up the racism looms large in the history
> of the Jews. Such a double standard seems very difficult if not
> impossible to rationalize in any legitimate way. It is the ten
> thousand pound gorilla in the foyer that no one wants to acknowledge
> as real.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jesus who? I know about fifty hispanic guys named "Jesus".
If you mean the guy on the stick in the Bible, that was the standard
punishment for insurrection. Or, any serious crime against the State.
cactus
> On Apr 1, 8:47 am, Robert Epstein <vze25...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Not at all. Large portions of the Jewish population are "humanists" who
>> believe in lifting up all people. It is a part of the Jewish cultural
>> tradition.
>
> The road to hell ia paved with good intentions. What one believes
> with the tiny insigificant portion of one's consious mind is NOT what
> we are talking about. We are talking about racial archetypes that are
> written deep within the souls of men. My father was a progressive
> Jew, like those of whom you speak. But when the chips were down he
> acted like the Jewish fascist that he was underneath his own professed
> intentions.
Have you talked with a psychiatrist about this?
Nothing he could do could change the deep structure of
> his Jewish psyche. The Jewish sages affirm this fact, only they see
> only the positive and not the negative ramifications of this, as Terry
> tried to explain to you.
If you believe Terry / Carol's "explanations," I've got a bridge between
Oakland and San Francisco for sale.
>
> Terry and I are not talking about individual Jews.
Terry / Carol doesn't talk about individual Jews because she regards all
Jews as exactly the same, with beliefs that haven't changed from the way
she thinks they might have been 3000 years old. By her, we're all
bronze age pastoral goat herders.
We are not
> speaking in an ad hominem fashion.
Give me a break, mr. suckmydick, mr. you're psychotic, mr. you're a
zombie.
We are talking about the deep
> structures of Jewish thought and levels deeper than thought.
You don't have a clue because your megalogmaniacal syncretism forces you
to insult everyone who does not abjectly bow down and agree with you. I
have always thought that you should preach on street corners in college
town. It would help you get laid, and those who see your 12 inch peter,
might even mention God in your presence.
These,
> we believe, are relfected in the writings of the sages, the leaders of
> the Jewish race,
Judaism is not a race, it's a religion. There is a blood line
component, but it is not essential.
and not in the uninformed opinions of the man on the
> street or the man in the newsgroup (in your case). Other Jews in
> these newsgroups are also speaking on the archetypal level that we are
> talking about. They at least begin to understand the meaning of
> religion as pertaining to something other than the isolated or even
> congregated individual. It pertains to the collective, of which you
> are a part without your consent. It has to do with your conditioning
> by both the outer world AND the inner world, when you go to sleep at
> night and dream of things you know not.
?
>
>
Robert Epstein
It's pure bullshit, Peter, formulated by your delusional mind. Your
view of races having a deep unconscious racist formulation is itself the
height of racial prejudice. You are exactly that which you protest
against, and you are your own worst nightmare.
saint...@hotmail.com
You are a pathological liar and a Jew who has nothing to fear from
Jewish racism. Those non-Jews who are about to lose their status as
human beings have a bit more to fear. Again, you remain ignorant of
the arguments for Jewish racism. You are just spouting your own
uninformed prejudices, because that's what you do. If you think you
understand what I mean by Jewish racism, I challenge you to state it.
I can do that in about three or four sentences. Put up or shut up.
If you cannot state my argument, then you are just arguing against
your own strawman, which has nothing to do with me at all. I am 99%
certain that is the case.
cactus
This is your megalomania in action. No one has anyone to fear, even
you. But you have to create drama, so you concoct a straw person to vent
your antisemitic spleen.
You could become Jewish, pjnudnik. All you have to do is convert to
Judaism per Halacha and you're in - one of the tribe. Then you can turn
your newfound power on everyone else. More likely you will find that
Jews are just like everyone else, except less racist.
Again, you remain ignorant of
> the arguments for Jewish racism.
There aren't any. You make them up out of whole cloth because you are
bitter about not being Jewish. You are conflicted about it - you claim
to be Jewish while spouting antisemitic lies.
You are just spouting your own
> uninformed prejudices, because that's what you do.
This is a classic example of projection. The sufferer of some mental
affliction tries to deny it by asserting that everyone else has it.
If you think you
> understand what I mean by Jewish racism, I challenge you to state it.
I sure don't because it doesn't exist except in your fevered imagination.
> I can do that in about three or four sentences. Put up or shut up.
> If you cannot state my argument, then you are just arguing against
> your own strawman, which has nothing to do with me at all. I am 99%
> certain that is the case.
You certainly produce straw people in abundance. They are ineffectual
even as scarecrows.
>
Mark T
> pure bullshit
AMEN!
Dear Trew Kristyun saint7peter
Kissy kissy! Now you pucker up and greet me with a kiss. (Romans 6:16;
1Corinthians 16:20; 2 Corinthians13:12; I Thessalonians 5:26; 1 Peter 5:14.)
I am refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. You make silence
a wonderful thing to look forward to. However I took exception to your
recent scribble
It was:
[X] backmasked with Satanic messages
[X] Pagan
[X] New Age
[X] unChristian
[X] Secular Humanist
[X] written in King James English
[X] written in tongues and did not include the interpretation
Your attention is drawn to the fact that:
[X] You flamed the Archbishop of Canterbury
[X] You flamed the Pope
[X] You flamed God
[X] You contradicted Jesus
[X] You contradicted yourself several times
[X] You mindlessly chanted the Pente Mantra several times
[X] You repeatedly assumed unwarranted spiritual, moral or intellectual
superiority
My informed, considered, rational and logical answer to your scribble is in
the acronyms:
[X] AWGTHTGTTSA
[X] DBEYR
[X] DILLIGAD
[X] DQYDJ
[X] FUBAR
[X] GIGO
[X] HUYA
[X] LSHHTCMS
[X] NRN
[X] PMF
[X] SITD
[X] SOI
[X] TAFL
[X] VI
[X] YGBK
I'd explain them to you, but your brain would explode.
It is recommended that you:
[X] Buy an indulgence from me.
[X] Send me a triple tithe.
[X] Do penance.
[X] Devote your life to missionary work in Iraq and Afghanistan.
[X] Start up a Christian Clown Ministry
[X] Start up a Kristyun Skool
QUESTIONS TO UNDERSTAND YOU BETTER:
[X] Jesus said in Matthew 5:42, "Give to him that asketh thee, and from
him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away." May I have your house
and car and may I borrow your most prized possession?
[X] Can I have your car after the Rapture?
[X] Have you ever sinned by eating rabbit, pork, shellfish (Leviticus 11:4,
7, 10)?
[X] Have you ever sinned by wearing clothes made of two types of material
(Leviticus 19:19; Deuteronomy 22:11)?
[X] Have you ever sinned by cutting your hair (Leviticus 19:27)?
[X] Were you in the special class at school?
[X] Are you from the shallow end of the gene pool?
[X] Do you want fries with that?
Please save this message and review it occasionally to determine your
progress toward being;
[X] a tolerable Trew Kristyun
[X] a fully-functional human being
[X] integrated into humanity
[X] re-integrated into the wild
If what you don't know can't hurt you, you're practically invulnerable.
Thank you for taking the time to read this flame form.
Deuteronomy 23:12 -13 "You are to have a place outside the camp where you
can go when you need to relieve yourselves. Carry a stick as a part of your
equipment, so when you have a bowel movement you can dig a hole and cover it
up."
**********************************************************************
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
PASTOR DALE K WHANGKE
http://dalekwhangke.blogspot.com/
Wyrst Pentacostal Church
Terry Cross
> Terry Cross wrote:
>
> > Racism permeates both doctrine and practice, both historically and
> > present-day. Read the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gentiles.
> >http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=G&search=gentile
>
> > Consider the doctrine that the greatest suffering in the war was
> > inflicted on the Jews. Consider the only people who demanded
> > retributions and received from Germany (Israel). Consider the
> > Holocaust monuments and museums throughout America, all without a
> > single memorial to the many millions more Americans, Ukrainians,
> > unless they were Jewish (or maybe homosexual or Gypsy). The history
> > is twisted to represent that only the Jewish deaths mattered.
>
> I do think it is unique that the Jews as a religious and cultural group
> were largely wiped off the face of the earth in great proportion. That
> is indeed a horrific special station in the Holocaust. However, I am
> not unaware of the horrors inflicted on other people, and among my
> friends and family - my father served in WW II in France and Germany -
> we speak just as much about the 12 million Russians who were killed as
> the 6 million Jews and others.
>
> everyone else.
Let us not forget the millions of Eastern European nations and people
who were handed over to the bloodiest empire that ever existed - the
Soviet Empire - immediately after the war by the treaty of Yalta. And
a little-known story, the myriads of refugees who were forcibly
repatriated to feed the monster: from http://www.serendipity.li/hr/trifkovic.htm
The story starts at Yalta in February 1945, when the return of all
Soviet citizens that may find themselves in the Allied zone was
demanded by Stalin -- and was duly agreed to by Churchill and FDR.
Accordingly, hundreds of thousands of Soviet POWs liberated by the
Allies were sent back home, regardless of their wishes, and regardless
of what Stalin had in store for them. In addition, in May and June
1945 tens of thousands of refugees from Yugoslavia and the Soviet
Union -- unarmed civilians escaping communism, as well as anticommunist
resistance fighters and assorted collaborationists -- were rounded up
by the British in Austria, and forcibly delivered to Stalin and Tito.
Most of them were summarily executed, sometimes within earshot of the
British. Forced repatriations were known as Operation Keelhaul -- the
"last secret" of World War II, as Alexander Solzhenitsyn called it.
Men, women, and children were forced into boxcars headed for the
Soviet zone in the east, or for Slovenia in the south.
Non-Soviet and non-Yugoslav citizens and Serbian royalists were
supposedly exempt from the deportation order, but key military
officials in the British chain of command surreptitiously included
them, too. As a result émigré Russians waving French passports and
British medals from the World War I were all rounded up and delivered
to Stalin.
There was panic in the camps when the inmates realized what was
going on. The British lied to some that they were to be taken to
Italy, or some other safe haven; if the subterfuge didn't work they
used rifle butts and bayonets as prods. Some refugees committed
suicide by sawing their throats with barbed wire. Mothers threw their
babies from trains into the river. To its credit one British
regiment, the London Irish, refused: they went to war to fight German
soldiers, they said, not to club refugee women and children.
(Americans proved willing to open the gates of refugee camps and look
the other way as the desperate inmates fled.)
In late June 1945 the original policy of screening the would-be
deportees was reinstated, but it was too late: most of them were
already dead, or in the depths of the Gulag. The tragedy would have
remained little known outside obscure émigré circles were it not for
British historian Count Nikolai Tolstoy, who has dedicated his life to
exposing the truth and identifying those responsible. This great-grand-
nephew of Russia's famous novelist -- and heir to the senior line of
the family -- has written three books on forced repatriations, each
more revealing than the previous one, as more suppressed information
came to light. In 1977 his Victims of Yalta was published, followed by
Stalin's Secret War in 1981, and then his most controversial book, The
Minister and the Massacres (1986).
In his books Tolstoy argued that refugees not covered by the Yalta
agreement -- émigré Russians and royalist Yugoslavs -- were forcibly
repatriated because Harold Macmillan, "minister resident" in the
Mediterranean and later prime minister, wanted to advance his
political career by appeasing Stalin. He persuaded a British general
whose 5th Army Corps occupied southern and eastern Austria to ignore a
Foreign Office telegram ordering that "any person who is not (repeat
not) a Soviet citizen under British law must not (repeat not) be sent
back to the Soviet Union unless he expressly desires."
Enter Lord Aldington, then a politically well-connected 30-year-
old brigadier called Toby Low, who was the Fifth Corps chief of staff.
He was also an aspiring Tory politician, hopeful of being nominated as
a candidate at the forthcoming general election in Britain. Low had no
qualms about acting upon Macmillan's suggestions. On May 21, 1945 he
issued an order to 5th Corps officers as to how to define Soviet
citizenship: "Individual cases will NOT be considered unless
particularly pressed ... In all cases of doubt, the individual will be
treated as a SOVIET NATIONAL." The émigrés' fate was thus sealed.
Tolstoy named Aldington in his last book as the chief executor of the
policy of forced repatriation on the ground, the man who went way
beyond the call of duty in carrying out Macmillan's instructions, and
who did so in contravention of orders.
The charges were serious, by British standards quite scandalous in
fact, but Aldington was reluctant to sue Tolstoy over the book. He did
sue one Nigel Watts instead, however, an obscure property developer
who distributed a pamphlet -- written by Tolstoy -- in which Aldington
was called a war criminal. The pamphlet included the following
statements:
As was anticipated by virtually everyone concerned, the
overwhelming majority of these defenceless people, who reposed
implicit trust in British honour, were either massacred in
circumstances of unbelievable horror immediately following their
handover, or condemned to a lingering death in Communist gaols and
forced labour camps. These operations were achieved by a combination
of duplicity and brutality without parallel in British history since
the Massacre of Glencoe ... The man who issued every order and
arranged every detail of the lying and brutality which resulted in
these massacres was Brigadier Toby Low, Chief of Staff to General
Keightley's 5 Corps, subsequently ennobled by Harold Macmillan as the
1st Baron Aldington ... The evidence is overwhelming that he arranged
the perpetration of a major war crime in the full knowledge that the
most barbarous and dishonourable aspects of his operations were
throughout disapproved and unauthorised by the higher command, and in
the full knowledge that a savage fate awaited those he was
repatriating ... a major war criminal, whose activities merit
comparison with those of the worst butchers of Nazi Germany or Soviet
Russia.
As the author of the text Tolstoy felt honor-bound to include
himself as Watts' co-defendant. At the trial Aldington freely
acknowledged signing the repatriation orders, but claimed that there
was "no way" he could have known the refugees would be killed: "We
were told that international law would be obeyed."
His mission in Austria accomplished, Brigadier Low returned to
England on some unknown date in May 1945 to be selected as the
Conservative MP for Blackpool -- the beginning of the slow rise that
would see him ennobled (by Macmillan!) and ushered into the boardrooms
and elite gentlemen's clubs of Britain. The exact date of his return
is highly significant: Tolstoy argued that Low did not leave Austria
until after the key order on indiscriminate deportations was issued,
and therefore it was he who -- contrary to the orders issuing from
Yalta -- was personally responsible for the crime.
When the trial came it should have been possible, easy even, to
prove the order of events and name the man who had issued the orders.
The British are efficient administrators, and the Public Record Office
should have contained the answer. Some of the relevant documents
Tolstoy had copied when he researched his books, but when he went back
he found that the old boy network had done its work. All key documents
related to the case had been sent to various government ministries --
notably to the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence -- and duly
"misplaced." When Tolstoy's researcher asked for these documents,
including reports and signals relating to Aldington, she was told they
were "not available." Only after the trial had started was Tolstoy
given a photocopy of the most important of the files, but four-fifths
of the contents were missing.
Lord Aldington had no such problem: the files were not only
readily available to him, but delivered to his office by government
couriers. "Dear George," he wrote to George Younger, the (then)
Defence Secretary, on March 8, 1987, "you are a friend who will
understand my distress ... if the files can be brought to the
Westminster area in a series of bundles, that would be very helpful."
"Dear George" duly obliged. Aldington's mind eventually clarified as
to the date on which he had finally left Austria -- he gave three dates
in three interviews -- but there were no records by which these could
be confirmed.
Heavily influenced by the trial judge, the jury found against
Tolstoy and awarded Lord Aldington astronomic damages -- a million and
a half pounds sterling -- in November 1990. Tolstoy, who declared
bankruptcy, was denied the right to appeal. Aware that Tolstoy was
penniless after the libel verdict, Britain's High Court ruled that he
had no right to appeal unless he came up with almost $200,000 in
advance to cover Aldington's legal expenses. The court further denied
Tolstoy access to a $1m defense fund that had been set up in his name,
and to which Alexander Solzhenitsyn and the late Graham Greene had
contributed. The British establishment, and in particular the grandees
who were friends of Aldinton -- the man on first-name terms with
ministers in every Tory government since the war -- got the desired
verdict. As far as they were concerned, a crank -- and a foreign crank
at that -- had received his well-deserved comeuppance.
L'affaire Tolstoy proved yet again that British libel laws are
flawed. The machinery of the British government seemed to tilt the
scales of justice, and the state apparently interfered in a private
court case. The Human Rights Court at Strasbourg ruled in a unanimous
judgment that the failure to permit an appeal was "unfitting for a
democratic society" and "constituted a violation of the applicant's
right ... to freedom of expression."
...
After Tolstoy's trial his Minister and the Massacres was banned
from British libraries and universities. Although the British
government would like to silence Tolstoy and any reference to forced
repatriation, the issue will never go away. Ever the idealist, Tolstoy
hopes that sooner or later it will have to come clean and apologize
for the crimes of its agents in occupied Central Europe in that awful
spring of 1945. He recalls that Prime Minister Tony Blair recently
issued an apology on behalf of Britain for the 19th century potato
blight in Ireland, "though many historians and members of the public
found it hard to envisage in what way that tragedy could be regarded
as a direct responsibility of the government of the day, let alone its
late 20th century successor." He also points out that the British
government "pressed consistently and successfully" for German and
Japanese governments to compensate British victims of their wartime
atrocities.
Lord Aldington won his court case thanks to the twisted British
libel laws and thanks to the Kafkaesque nature of Britain's power
structure, but wherever he is now he may be wondering if it was a
victory worth having. That flawed man, disdainful of the suffering of
such lesser breeds as Slavs, cynically manipulative and devoid of any
capacity for moral distinctions, is beyond human judgment now; but one
hopes that a much higher court will take a dim view of his life and
times. May his name live in infamy. http://www.serendipity.li/hr/trifkovic.htm
* * *
Notice that the facts are not in question. Only the names of
responsible parties are in dispute.
TCross
Terry Cross
>
> >>saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >>The Jews did not crucify Jesus.
>
> > Pilate did not crucify Jesus.
>
> "The Jews" didn't either. Pilate forced the Jewish Authority to make
> the decision. The Romans crucified him. They were in charge and had
> final decision-making power. For political reasons, they preferred not
> to have their handwriting on it.
There is not support for this statement anywhere but in your
imagination. Certainly the gospels do not support it, Nor does the
Talmud, the Mishnah, or anything else. Whence this liberty of
invention?
TCross
saint...@hotmail.com
He's Jewish. What else? He gets a merit badge for lying to Gentiles.
cactus
So you are a shegits! It's good that you acknowledge that you aren't
Jewish.
saint...@hotmail.com
I am Jewish, and I am the Jewish Messiah. I have triumphed over Rebbe
Schneerson, who was killed by G-D before He could take over the
world. I am satisfied.
cactus
You wondered why no one tries to refute you? You are delusional, and
off your meds. I learned a long time ago never to argue with a
delusional person until after their meds have kicked in.
saint...@hotmail.com
>
> You wondered why no one tries to refute you? You are delusional, and
> off your meds. I learned a long time ago never to argue with a
> delusional person until after their meds have kicked in.
Some "delusional persons" are so called by you only because they have
more knowledge than you do. Schizophrenics are in some respects an
advanced mutation of the human race. So says Vincent Sarich, an
authority in the field.