The Paradox of Da Free John

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Petros

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May 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/19/99
to
Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The Paradox of
Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."


http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt


Bruce Morgen

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May 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/19/99
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Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:

Along similar lines, but
centered on Osho, one
might want to peruse the
following site (I agree
with a great deal of what
Christopher says, but
this does not comprise an
outright endorsement):

http://www.clipper.net/~calder/Osho.html


__________________________________________________
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

m(_ _)m

Senny

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May 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/20/99
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Petros wrote:
Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The Paradox of
Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."

http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt

When the un-Realised being is confronted by someone or something they do not understand, their reaction manifests itself in one of two characteristic forms - either doubt or belief.

Doubt and belief are opposite sides of the same coin of mind.  Doubt is based on the adolescent tendency of and toward independence through blind denial and non-Realisation. Belief on the otherhand is based on the childish tendency of and toward dependence through blind faith and non-Realisation.  Only Realisation or Most Direct Experience or Most Direct Heart-Knowledge transcends the mood or mind-based and therefore fear-based tendencies of both doubt and belief.

No response I can give you, other than this response, is of any Real usefulness to you.  All other responses merely reinforce the childish mood of dependence and therefore, at best, only temporarily consoles you, or on the otherhand provides you with more information on which to carry on your mood of doubt and independent rejection or blind denial.  Real consideration and Realisation of this argument, or understanding of this argument, is your only Truly and Most Fully Liberating alternative.

Neither the child nor the adolescent Realises anything that can be called Spiritual, Transcendental or Divine.   Both characters must grow and mature beyond their inherently limited points of view and limited self-understanding.  Only then is Entrance into the Field that Exists beyond, and prior to those points of view, possible.  This is Realised progressively by Grace in the Company and through feeling-Contemplation of a Real and True Spiritual Master (or Tangible Spiritual Force Transmitter) or the Sat Guru.

What Attracted and continues to Attract me to the Person of Avatar Adi Da Samraj
is His Capacity To Transmit Real, Tangible and Un-deniable Spirit-Force, which is characteristically felt as a descending Force crashing down through the crown and into the entire body mind. This is what ocurred the first time I picked up a book 7 years ago and It has occurred ever since. This is the True and Real Import of the Appearance of Adi Da Samraj. Everything else that you see, judge, have problems and conflict with have everything to do with YOU. Anyone that persists in the Real practise of feeling-contemplation of His bodily human Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State will Realise that which is the Mystery and Paradox of Adi Da Samraj. There rest is mind. The rest is fear. And mind and fear have every manner and means to justify, deny, criticise, defend and refuse all that is prior to or Beyond mind. However what is most revealing about this act is the confusion of the seeker and the need to get one's head around It. But that which is beyond the head is not understood *by* the head. It is threatening to the head. But the head must be 'cut off' by It.

Consider it now.  Truly where is the locus of your attention - right now?

Is it really in the heart? Or is it centered behind the eyes, between the ears, above and behind the nose. For one who is looking for proof or is defending, justifying, denying. criticising, or refusing the communications of Avatar Adi Da Samraj, one thing is for certain, attention is not resolved in its source. It is *not* in the heart.

May you Realise that which Is - beyond doubting, believing, defending, justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind.

Much Love to all and All -- Senen
 
 
 

Bruce Morgen

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May 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/20/99
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Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:

>
>--------------235F84BA9EB964F1DBB94547
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>
>> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The Paradox of
>> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
>> >
>> >
>> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
>> >

>> Along similar lines, but
>> centered on Osho, one
>> might want to peruse the
>> following site (I agree
>> with a great deal of what
>> Christopher says, but
>> this does not comprise an
>> outright endorsement):
>

>Just in case you missed by colourful response My Friend,
>
>Love Senen

>True and Real Import of the Appearance of Adi Da Samraj. It is about
>Reception of this Transmission. And Realising the Condition of that
>Transmission. Everything else that you see, judge, have problems and conflict
>with, have everything to do with YOU.


>
>Anyone that persists in the Real practise of feeling-contemplation of His
>bodily human Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State will Realise that
>which is the Mystery and Paradox of Adi Da Samraj. There rest is mind. The
>rest is fear. And mind and fear have every manner and means to justify, deny,
>criticise, defend and refuse all that is prior to or Beyond mind. However
>what is most revealing about this act is the confusion of the seeker and the
>need to get one's head around It. But that which is beyond the head is not
>understood *by* the head. It is threatening to the head. But the head must be
>'cut off' by It.
>
>Consider it now. Truly where is the locus of your attention - right now?
>
>Is it really in the heart? Or is it centered behind the eyes, between the
>ears, above and behind the nose. For one who is looking for proof or is
>defending, justifying, denying. criticising, or refusing the communications
>of Avatar Adi Da Samraj, one thing is for certain, attention is not resolved
>in its source. It is *not* in the heart.
>
>May you Realise that which Is - beyond doubting, believing, defending,
>justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is
>head or mind.
>
>Much Love to all and All -- Senen
>

So much Capitalized Cult-Speak
in reaction to two simple
website links! From the
heart, allow me to distill
Senen's copious verbiage to
its essence. I testify
that thought is the tool of
distillation and not the
distiller.

[Distillation] If you do not
wholeheartedly embrace my
guru and dare to express any
interest in him as a mere
human being (albeit a radiant
communicator) rather than
immediately becoming Wholly
Infatuated and Totally
Dependent on him, you are
obviously not of The Heart,
but rather lost in the
loveless activity of the

"doubting, believing,
defending, justifying,
affirming, criticising,

analysing, thinking," and
ultimately fearful "head or
mind." [distillation ends]

Senen's position of course
comes not of something as
mundane as "belief," but
rather of the Generously
Capitalized Grace that can
come Only through Bhakti to
the One and Only Fully God-
Identified Being in All of
Human History -- Adi Da
Samraj. Senen is obviously
an effusively happy camper,
and I harbor no intention
or hope of disrupting such
a joyful state. The circus
is in town, and with the
circus come the clowns, on
whose greasepainted faces
the smile never falters.

Much love -- Bruce

Roger Isaacs

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May 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/20/99
to edi...@juno.com
edi...@juno.com wrote:
> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The
Paradox of
> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
> >
> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
> >
> Along similar lines, but
> centered on Osho, one
> might want to peruse the
> following site (I agree
> with a great deal of what
> Christopher says, but
> this does not comprise an
> outright endorsement):

Edward Tarabilda comments on Da Free John as well as others at
http://www.dimensional.com/~risaacs/k_cohen2.htm , the root page for
this site is www.newu.org

A partial quote from the essay: "Sin is that which binds one to the
petty self and, thus, an enlightened cannot sin in the sense that an
ignorant person can, but his actions can have undesirable consequences
for the public at large; they can cause shock and scandal and, in these
ways, be deemed immoral. This is the exact case with Da Free John, who
has a weak Sun governing his moral and ethical nature, but arguably, a
highly evolved spiritual nature. It is alleged that he is very reckless
in his social behavior and he can, at times, cause innumerable damage
to others in the name of helping them spiritually, even though it is
possible that he does not incur a stain on his own spiritual nature
thereby.

Put in a different way we can say that an enlightened being with a weak
moral and ethical nature does not use skill in action in how he engages
in moral and ethical activity much to the detriment of those around
him. It is not that different from an enlightened person who has weak
verbal skills, or poor physical or mental health and suffers the
consequences therefrom.

Put in still a different way, we can say that an enlightened person
always acts out of a sense of selfless service and giving to others,
but if his moral and ethical nature is weak, then the service is not
very effective, or it often fails to hit the mark, or it has bad and
unforeseen consequences along with the good consequences." ...

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

Heart Happy

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May 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/20/99
to
Bruce Morgen wrote:
>
> Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:

Senen is obviously
> an effusively happy camper,
> and I harbor no intention
> or hope of disrupting such
> a joyful state. The circus
> is in town, and with the
> circus come the clowns, on
> whose greasepainted faces
> the smile never falters.
>

*********
Great body slam Bruce!
That should just about do it!!! :-)


Judi

Bruce Morgen

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May 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/20/99
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Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com> wrote:

I wouldn't for a moment
assume "unforeseen
consequences" in Da's
current activity. He
can't help but know
that he is surrounded
and his livelihood
provided by a circus,
and that circus carries
its own lessons in the
joys and pitfalls of
bhakti sans discernment
and it underlines
Krishnamurti's 1929
assertion of the
limitations of "any
path," "any religion,"
and "any sect."

Do you find yourself in
agreement with Edwardji
regarding the existence
of "a weak moral and
ethical sense" in "an
enlightened being?" Is
"a weak moral and
ethical sense" compatible
with the compassion
intrinsic to realization?

As seen from here a
realizer can certainly
make errors in decision-
making, but this is an
intellectual shortcoming
and not actually a "moral"
or "ethical" deficiency.
Love's impetus is perfect,
thought's service is (to
at least some extent, and
quite unavoidably) flawed.

Randy

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May 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/20/99
to
Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been said
that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
spiritual effort". Judi, I don't recall if you ever told me why you left
the Way of the Heart, but it seemed like it had something to do with not
wanting to be part of a group (ANY group). Is that correct? But to anyone
else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to
say? Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?

I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been
developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm. I've
tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and
over again, without fail. But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy? Really
and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any
given moment? If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open
heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.
Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will be an
heart-opening experience!

Love to all,
Randy
Petros wrote in message <37434A...@earthlink.net>...

Heart Happy

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May 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/20/99
to
Senny wrote:

>
> Heart Happy wrote:
>
> Bruce Morgen wrote:
> >
> > Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
>
> Senen is obviously
> > an effusively happy camper,
> > and I harbor no intention
> > or hope of disrupting such
> > a joyful state. The circus
> > is in town, and with the
> > circus come the clowns, on
> > whose greasepainted faces
> > the smile never falters.
> >
>
> *********
> Great body slam Bruce!
> That should just about do it!!! :-)
>
> Judi
>
> The (trap being set, the bait is thrown out and in come the believers
> and the
> doubters in their droves - further confirming the above:
>
> ... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,

> affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head
> or mind begins.... And one
> more word can be added here - sarcasm!
>
> Wrestlers and Lovers only have one thing in common My Friend - and
> it's not a bodyslam, it's the Gift of being able to get into the Ring
> with all that is not Love
> or all that is lovessness, or asshole-ness, ugliness, anger and fear.
>
> The bell has Rung and Love is holding the World Championship Belt.
> Fortunately
> the bodyslammer was Bodyslammed By Loves Own Unique, Untouchable and
> Effortless, moveless Move!!!
>
> Much Love to you My Friend - The ring is Empty!!!!!
>
> Senen
>

************
And so is your brain!! :-)
Thank God too, cause if you had one, you'd be dangerous! :-)
But all kidding aside, I think you need to spend some serious
time reading his books, cause you're not getting it.
First comes insight and realization, then love and understanding
follow naturally.

Judi
Jai Hari Kaur
"Princess of the Victory of God"


--
Happy Days,
Judi

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada/morea.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/members.html

Allen Crider

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May 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/20/99
to

Randy wrote:
>
> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been said
> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
> spiritual effort".

It has been said, but is that anywhere near a reliable truth?

A minute with a Buddha is the mystical experience of the radiance of that being.
Or perhaps an exchange of words. Judi got a fine whopper from a short exchange
with the guru, and doesn't require any bhakti-based relationship. So if your got
your minute, why stick around? At some point in the bhakti relationship the law
of diminishing returns comes into force, eh?

Why is there no long line of seekers waiting for their minute with Adi Da to
achieve a lifetime of spiritual effort?

And why doesn't Adi Da approach his work in this fashion? Why did he move to
Fiji and not be of this world anymore?

> But to anyone
> else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
> mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to
> say?

I have studied Adi Da's stuff, know many sincere devotees and have yet to find
anything that wasn't synthesized from traditional, previous material.

Here in internet land, I'm fascinated with breakthrough spiritual thought. Got
anything new from the guru?

> Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?

I am finished with Guru Bhakti. I was totally devoted and Bhakti fulfilled
through gazing at my mother's eyes as a suckling infant. She was the perfect
Guru, the all, the god being. Now, I have moved on other expressions of
devotion.

Adi Da is Adi Da. He has become, among other things, a mean son of a bitch, but
perhaps has regained some of his formerly happy inner self following his recent
visit to the US for glaucoma surgery.



> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
> understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been
> developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm. I've
> tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and
> over again, without fail.

This is what is important to any follower of ANY path. And, sincerely, Bhakti
can be a valid path.

> But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy? Really
> and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any
> given moment?

If one depends on the grace of another human being for one's own happiness, then
perhaps there is some inner work to do.

> If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open
> heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.

I suppose lack of inner happiness can be a reason to seek, but what if I'm
already happy?

> Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
> Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
> anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
> or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will be an
> heart-opening experience!

So here's my quest... I'm looking for any new spiritual thought Adi Da has
created. Westernizing Hindu and Buddhist thought doesn't count. That's old, old stuff.

Allen

jo...@ix.netcom.com

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May 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/20/99
to
Bruce Morgen wrote:
>
> Allen Crider <caps...@sirius.com> wrote:

[snip]

> >Adi Da is Adi Da. He has become, among other things, a mean son of a bitch, but
> >perhaps has regained some of his formerly happy inner self following his recent
> >visit to the US for glaucoma surgery.
> >

> Perhaps he should have added
> some cannibis to his ample
> and famous personal
> pharmacopeia -- it's
> supposed to do wonders for
> glaucoma.

If Adi Da is a regular user of marijuana he's just gone up 50 points in my book!

;)

--jodyr.

Heart Happy

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May 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/20/99
to
Randy wrote:
>
> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption?

********** Yes, I met him once, at the Day of the Heart celebration.

It has been said
> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
> spiritual effort".

******** Yes, that's true, and it wasn't until after my own realization
18 years
later that I fully understood this and what his communication was all
about.

Judi, I don't recall if you ever told me why you left
> the Way of the Heart, but it seemed like it had something to do with not
> wanting to be part of a group (ANY group). Is that correct?

*******
Da moved the day after I met him to Hawaii. I had many far out
insightful blissful experiences during my 4 months there at the ashram
in Clear Lake,
and I found myself crying and laughing quite a bit, but I was shunned by
the other devotees and they were not very nice to me. I thought that it
would be a place
of realization and understanding, from reading his books at least, but
it's not.
A bunch of sheep is what you have there. Now perhaps if he would have
been there
with me it might have been a different story, but I left and came back
to
Santa Cruz. I thought they were all pretty stupid actually, they all had
blinders on.


> But to anyone
> else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
> mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to

> say? Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?
>
******* That's neither here nor there, your own self realization is what
matters
and how you get there is really besides the point. The path you use to
get there is simply your separate identity, your life story, a
conglomeration of experiences, and the idea is to be done with it and
allow for something new to come in. I met this guy last week who got
enlightened who spent 27 years in prison for bank robbery and other
assorted dastardly crimes.:-) And he didn't have any guru, all he had
was his
his misery and heart break to work with. Bewilderment and heart break
are really the best teachers. So I would say that if you're all that
happy you're probably no where
near it yet. :-) But enlightenment could strike at any time, but it's
usually not
the case, but there are enjenues(sp) I'm sure. For us *normal* folks it
usually
takes a lot of suffering and beating our heads against the wall and then
some crisis
of some sort or other. Do you guys know Saniel Bonder, who was with Da
for 18 years?
That's what happened to him. He spent 18 years with Da, loving and
having a good time,
but really beating his head against the wall until finally he got fed up
and got serious
and said to himself, it's just not working, and I've got to somehow find
my own way.
And he did just that. He spent a short few months on his own, (under the
threat of
hellish lifetimes to come for leaving his beloved Da), and he found a
mentor to help and guide him and damned if he didn't get himself
enlightened. But he could have just
as easily stayed there with Da, but I doubt seriously that any
transformation that Saniel has since realized would have happened. And
you must understand as with Saniel's
case, he didn't leave because he did not love Da, he loved him dearly
and still does, he left so he could stand on his own. Who knows that Da
did not deliberately make those
threats to Saniel in order to help him? But Saniel will probably never
know, because
he has been ostrasized from the community. Pretty sad I think. All his
beloved friends
for all those years will not even talk to him. But he's met me since, so
he's not
crying too much!!! :-)

Judi


> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
> understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been
> developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm. I've
> tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and

> over again, without fail. But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy? Really


> and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any

> given moment? If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open


> heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.

> Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
> Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
> anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
> or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will be an
> heart-opening experience!
>

> Love to all,
> Randy
> Petros wrote in message <37434A...@earthlink.net>...
> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The Paradox of
> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
> >
> >
> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
> >

--

Heart Happy

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May 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/20/99
to
Senny wrote:
>

> >
> > Much Love to you My Friend - The ring is Empty!!!!!
> >
> > Senen
> >
>
> ************
> And so is your brain!! :-) Thank God too, cause if you had
> one, you'd be dangerous! :-)
>

> Thank God you noticed. I did say that the head had to be 'cut off' in
> case you don't remember!
>
********* I happen to like my head very much, it comes in handy when
running
into crackpots such as yourself. Your problem Senen, is that you've got
the Horn of Plenty stuck so far up your ass you got shit for brains. :-)

> And recopied from above - highlights added especially for
> you Judi:
>
****** Aha! Trying to be cute with me huh? Well, I guess you're not
that
dumb, cause you know your ass is in the ringer or you woudldn't be
trying to wiggle
out. :-) Hey Bruce, I got another one!! This one just jumped in the
boat!! :-)


> ... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,


> affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head

> or mind begins.... And one
> > more word can be added here - sarcasm!
>

> But all kidding aside, I think you need to spend some
> serious
> time reading his books, cause you're not getting it.
>

> All kidding aside you are not Getting It - At all - and perhaps
> spending too
> much serious time with your head in your own books!!!!
>
> Reading is for those (of which you have included yourself by
> virtue of this response) who HAVEN'T Got It -- See below:


>
> "What Attracted and continues to Attract me to the Person of Avatar
> Adi Da Samraj
> is His Capacity To Transmit Real, Tangible and Un-deniable

> Spirit-Force, which I


> characteristically felt as a descending Force crashing down through

> the crown and filling the entire body mind. This is what ocurred the


> first time I picked up a book 7 years ago and It has occurred ever

> since. This is my personal, and constant, personal
> EXPERIENCE."
>
****** Forces and experiences come and go, but our love is here to stay.
While you were busy having your experiences I moved my furniture in. :-)

> When you have Gotten This Judi you will never have the need to pick up
> any book
> ever again. It's all over then Judi. If you'er stuck with books and
> you're not Getting It or
> Feeling It Direct (and clearly your not by virtue of your advice) then
> that's your limit - that's why you need and recommend books - your
> prescription however is for you not for me - I am not in need of it.
> It is of no use to me whatsoever!!!


>
> First comes insight and realization, then love and
> understanding
> follow naturally.
>

> That's your story and your going to stick with it. However it's not my
> story.
>
> My personal experience is this:
>
> First Came the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss and then
> Came the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss - Books are
> for the head.
>
> So yes Judi take heed of your own comments - lose your brain - it's in
> the way of
> your heart!!!

******** I will do no such thing of the sort. You're the one that
needs to lose your brain and I suggest you get a new one!!


>
> Books are for the head who has yet has not been awakened to this
> Tangible Force -
> which is above and beyond the head and at the heart - in my
> *experience*!!!
>
******** Oh, I brought all my books with me too. They fit quite nicely
here.

> Love Senen


>
>
>
> Judi
> Jai Hari Kaur
> "Princess of the Victory of God"
>
>
>

Senny

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May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The Paradox of
>Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
>
>
>http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
>

Along similar lines, but
centered on Osho, one
might want to peruse the
following site (I agree
with a great deal of what
Christopher says, but
this does not comprise an
outright endorsement):

Just in case you missed by colourful response My Friend,

Love Senen

When the un-Realised being is confronted by someone or something they do not understand, their reaction manifests itself in one of two characteristic forms - either doubt or belief.

Doubt and belief are opposite sides of the same coin of mind.  Doubt is based on the adolescent tendency of and toward independence through blind denial and non-Realisation. Belief on the otherhand is based on the childish tendency of and toward dependence through blind faith and non-Realisation.  Only Realisation or Most Direct Experience or Most Direct Heart-Knowledge transcends the mood or mind-based and therefore fear-based tendencies of both doubt and belief.

No response I can give you, other than this response, is of any Real usefulness to you.  All other responses merely reinforce the childish mood of dependence and therefore, at best, only temporarily consoles you, or on the otherhand provides you with more information on which to carry on your mood of doubt and independent rejection or blind denial.  Real consideration and Realisation of this argument, or understanding of this argument, is your only Truly and Most Fully Liberating alternative.

Neither the child nor the adolescent Realises anything that can be called Spiritual, Transcendental or Divine.   Both characters must grow and mature beyond their inherently limited points of view and limited self-understanding.  Only then is Entrance into the Field that Exists beyond, and prior to those points of view, possible.  This is Realised progressively by Grace in the Company and through feeling-Contemplation of a Real and True Spiritual Master (or Tangible Spiritual Force Transmitter) or the Sat Guru.

What Attracted and continues to Attract me to the Person of Avatar Adi Da Samraj
is His Capacity To Transmit Real, Tangible and Un-deniable Spirit-Force, which is characteristically felt as a descending Force crashing down through the crown and into the entire body mind. This is what ocurred the first time I picked up a book 7 years ago and It has occurred ever since. This is the True and Real Import of the Appearance of Adi Da Samraj. It is about Reception of this Transmission. And Realising the Condition of that Transmission. Everything else that you see, judge, have problems and conflict with, have everything to do with YOU.

Anyone that persists in the Real practise of feeling-contemplation of His bodily human Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State will Realise that which is the Mystery and Paradox of Adi Da Samraj. There rest is mind. The rest is fear. And mind and fear have every manner and means to justify, deny, criticise, defend and refuse all that is prior to or Beyond mind. However what is most revealing about this act is the confusion of the seeker and the need to get one's head around It. But that which is beyond the head is not understood *by* the head. It is threatening to the head. But the head must be 'cut off' by It.

Consider it now.  Truly where is the locus of your attention - right now?

Is it really in the heart? Or is it centered behind the eyes, between the ears, above and behind the nose. For one who is looking for proof or is defending, justifying, denying. criticising, or refusing the communications of Avatar Adi Da Samraj, one thing is for certain, attention is not resolved in its source. It is *not* in the heart.

May you Realise that which Is - beyond doubting, believing, defending, justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind.

Much Love to all and All -- Senen

 

http://www.clipper.net/~calder/Osho.html

Senny

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May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to

First note to the blind-doubter and in this case blind-reader... from above...

" This is Realised progressively by Grace in the Company and through feeling-Contemplation of a Real and True Spiritual Master (or Tangible
Spiritual Force Transmitter) or the Sat Guru."

- No reference of exclusivity here My Friend.

The (trap being set, the bait is thrown out and in come the believers and the
doubters in their droves - further confirming the above:

... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind begins.... And one

more word can be added here - sarcasm!

The important thing to add or note in relation to 'the doubter' is that his doubt truly is blind. The blind and adolescent doubter has not made his statement or confession after spending years in feeling-contemplation of Adi Da Samraj or any other proclaimed God-Realiser whose calling is to Satsang. This is never, ever the case. This is why the language of the doubter is always analytically abstract, or non-personal in nature.

The blind and inherently adolescent blind-doubter of Adi Da Samraj (or any other God-Realised Being whose Calling is to Satsang) NEVER, EVER responds by saying:

"After years and years of feeling-contemplation of Avatar Adi Da's human bodily
Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State (or any other God-Realised Being whose Calling is to Satsang) and really and truly and *exhaustively* considering this Single and Exclusive practise I conclude that....."

This never happens. The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO EXHAUSTIVE EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to. This is why their
language is coloured with tones of criticism, distant external, or non-participatory
observations and points of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY
SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the discourses, and the communications of these individuals everywhere and note that it NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the point of view of Realisation or personal experience. They have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic
known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing, defending, justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind - ALWAYS.  They want to be seen as Gurus through this purely intellectually based actvitity, however they never achieve what the True Guru (any True Guru) Demonstrates. And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one who can FROM
EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner
of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So they are very agressive (some more
outwardly and others more passively) toward those who have Realised Something or
those who have thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind zealots. However this is the very thing they deeply crave themselves. They want attention. They want admiration. They want to be seen as authories. They crave to be  LOVED. But they are not loved. And they are not lovers. And they have all sorts of problems, complications and concerns with those that speak about Love or devotion.
If someone animates signs of devotion to them they have no problem, concern or complications but when it is to someone other than themselves then suddently it's not o.k and the critical pen comes out to play. But they never get the devotion they criticise in others (blind or otherwise). They certainly don't get it to the degree that the True Guru Gets it. And they are all over the place with their criticism, even of the thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind zealots - whatever they are reffered to as; however the key question continually beckons:

"What the hell has the devotional response (blind or otherwise) got to do with you???
"Why do you have a reaction to it?   Why are you always talking about it?

And the answer, as is expected comes in the usual tones of criticism, sarcasm justification, distant, external, or non-participatory or non-personal observations and points of view that have nothing to do with them.

The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never speaks from personal experience. He always has some gibbering nonsense to say (and justify) about why he is saying what he is saying. He never gets it! He never gets the fact that it's all about him!

Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick to tell you - No - (as secretly as possible via personal email perhaps - just in case he should lose his self-presumed status as authority from his own blind followers. Yet he is seen continuously commenting on matters that are outside of his experience or direct knowledge. He speaks about Realisation but has Realised nothing himself. He speaks about the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself. He speaks about Reality but has not Realised Reality himself. He speaks about Love but has not Realised Love himself. He speaks about Consciousness but has not Realised Consciousness Himself.

And yet he still has the audacity to criticise cultish believers, when his own demonstration is that of cultish believer. He has Realised nothing but comments on everything. This is what the cultish bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the point of view of others and affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or intellectual or mind based point of view. He is the ultimate jokester. He is the ultimate fool. He is the epitome of self-delusion. But he will never put the word Realisation (God-Realisation or otherwise) beside his own name because then he would have to come up with the Goods. And he can't. He absolutely knows that he can't. He's not up to the Real Gig, so he tries to pull off the would be cult leader's gig. Yet all the while he knows that it's all bullshit. He secretly knows that he's not up to it. He is always in fear of being found out. He simply has no Realisation in relation to what he is always rapping about.

This My Friend Bruce Morgan is all about you, and your strategy and your present life-gig, everyone is stuck somewhere in their non-Realisation, My Friend this is where
YOU are stuck!!!!!

Senen is obviously
an effusively happy camper,
and I harbor no intention
or hope of disrupting such
a joyful state.  The circus
is in town, and with the
circus come the clowns, on
whose greasepainted faces
the smile never falters.

And to the Show come the sad, un-happy brain-tight spectators too afraid and
loveless in their suppressed intellectual states to enjoy the Party. Having forgotten
that life is about God of God and as God they come to the circus to be re-Awakened,
re-Inspired, Humorously Mocked, they may Remember the  Magic, the Joy and the un-reasonable Ecstacy that Is God and Is Life.

My I have Served your much needed critical heart with Mad Joy, Ecstatic
Pleasure and the memory of a Life empty of the un-happy and loveless mood
of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing,
thinking, fear - or all that is head or mind. May your Heart-smile re-appear and
Out-Shine the mirror of minds-i that is the Shade to Love's own-Felt Embrace!!
 

Much Love to you My Friend - Know that I still Love you!!!

Senen

Senny

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May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Heart Happy wrote:
Bruce Morgen wrote:
>
> Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:

 Senen is obviously
> an effusively happy camper,
> and I harbor no intention
> or hope of disrupting such
> a joyful state.  The circus
> is in town, and with the
> circus come the clowns, on
> whose greasepainted faces
> the smile never falters.
>

*********

Great body slam Bruce!
That should just about do it!!! :-)

Judi

The (trap being set, the bait is thrown out and in come the believers and the
doubters in their droves - further confirming the above:

... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind begins.... And one
more word can be added here - sarcasm!

Wrestlers and Lovers only have one thing in common My Friend - and it's not a bodyslam, it's the Gift of being able to get into the Ring with all that is not Love

or all that is lovessness, or asshole-ness, ugliness, anger and fear.

The bell has Rung and Love is holding the World Championship Belt. Fortunately
the bodyslammer was Bodyslammed By Loves Own Unique, Untouchable and
Effortless, moveless Move!!!

Much Love to you My Friend - The ring is Empty!!!!!

Senen
 
 
 

Senny

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May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
 

Roger Isaacs wrote:

  edi...@juno.com wrote:
> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The
Paradox of
> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
> >
> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
> >
> Along similar lines, but
> centered on Osho, one
> might want to peruse the
> following site (I agree
> with a great deal of what
> Christopher says, but
> this does not comprise an
> outright endorsement):

Edward Tarabilda comments on Da Free John as well as others at

http://www.dimensional.com/~risaacs/k_cohen2.htm , the root page for
this site is www.newu.org

A partial quote from the essay: "Sin is that which binds one to the
petty self and, thus, an enlightened cannot sin in the sense that an
ignorant person can, but his actions can have undesirable consequences
for the public at large; they can cause shock and scandal and, in these
ways, be deemed immoral. This is the exact case with Da Free John, who
has a weak Sun governing his moral and ethical nature, but arguably, a
highly evolved spiritual nature. It is alleged that he is very reckless
in his social behavior and he can, at times, cause innumerable damage
to others in the name of helping them spiritually, even though it is
possible that he does not incur a stain on his own spiritual nature
thereby. Put in a different way we can say that an enlightened being with a weak
moral and ethical nature does not use skill in action in how he engages
in moral and ethical activity much to the detriment of those around
him. It is not that different from an enlightened person who has weak
verbal skills, or poor physical or mental health and suffers the
consequences therefrom.

Put in still a different way, we can say that an enlightened person
always acts out of a sense of selfless service and giving to others,
but if his moral and ethical nature is weak, then the service is not
very effective, or it often fails to hit the mark, or it has bad and
unforeseen consequences along with the good consequences." ...
 

Yes the weak, timid and naive child who still believes that others and the
world happen to him is always stuck on this point of view. His own lack
of responsibility for his own reaction to anything that is seen or heard is
his scar. But the reaction is his. It is his own self scarring. He does not
and cannot embrace or accept what he sees or hears. He contracts at the heart.
His heart 'stops' and his head 'starts'. He is still cradled in mommies arms
listening to mommy and daddy ideas and beliefs about the world and how it
should and should not be (and his preachers arms - let's not forget him).

He is still wearing the sun-glasses of his mommy-daddy-preacher-mind and is
offended by all that is outside his adopted and inherited lenses of mind. His
constant response to what offends him is blame. He is unwilling to accept
responsibility for his own reaction or contraction in the midst of what he
sees or hears. So he is continuosly frustrated by a world that refuses to be
the way that his mummy-daddy-preacher adopted-inherited lenses say it
should be. The more he fixes himself within the boundaries of his lenses the
more life presents itself beyond or outside the boundaries of his lenses. He does
not Know that he has 'bought' his lenses. He is to afraid to take them off. He
refuses to trade them in. They are old, tattered, morn out and scarred by the
continued offensiveness of counter-mummy-daddy-preacher adopted-inherited
ideas. He needs a trade them in yet he is afraid to take them off. He wants to
remain in the darkness of his own 'shades' yet he is offended all the while. He is
afraid of the Shine or Fall of  Lights Brightness upon his naked eyes. Therefore he continues to see everything within the boundaries of his lenses as God or
good and everything outside the boundaries of his lenses bad or immoral, unethical
or not-God. And in doing so he is playing at being God - pretending he Knows
how things should be, yet he cannot Be God. He cannot Love Perpetually. His *reaction* to what he sees is his act of un-love or not-God. He continues to see
a world that offends him yet he is unwilling to upgrade or take off his own lenses.

Again I offer you the following addition to the comment above:

The important thing to add or note in relation to 'the doubter' is that his doubt truly is
blind. The blind and adolescent doubter has not made his statement or confession after
spending years in feeling-contemplation of Adi Da Samraj or any other proclaimed
God-Realiser whose calling is to Satsang. This is never, ever the case. This is why the
language of the doubter is always analytically abstract, or non-personal in nature.

The blind and inherently adolescent blind-doubter of Da Free John or any other

God-Realised Being whose Calling is to Satsang) NEVER, EVER responds by saying:

"After years and years of feeling-contemplation of Avatar Adi Da's human bodily
Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State (or any other God-Realised Being whose
Calling is to Satsang) and really and truly and *exhaustively* considering this Single
and Exclusive practise I conclude that....."

This never happens. The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO
EXHAUSTIVE EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to. This is why

their
language is coloured with tones of criticism, distant external, or non-participatory
observations and points of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the discourses, and the communications of these individuals everywhere and note that it

NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the point of view of Realisation or personal experience. They have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing, defending, justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind - ALWAYS.  They always draw on essays written by someone else or other authorities yet can never comment personally. They want to be seen as Authorities through this purely intellectually based actvitity, however they never achieve what the True Guru (any True Guru) Demonstrates. And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one who can FROM  EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So they are very agressive (some more outwardly and others more passively) toward those who have Realised Something or those who have thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind zealots. However this is the very thing they deeply crave themselves. They want to be seen as authories. 

The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never speaks from personal experience. He
always has some gibbering nonsense to say (and justify) about why he is saying what he is saying. He never gets it! He never gets the fact that it's all about him!

Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick to tell you - No - Yet he is seen continuously commenting on matters that are outside of his experience or direct knowledge. It is not that he is a Realiser criticising what he sees or hears. He speaks about Realisation but has Realised nothing himself. He speaks about the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself. He speaks about Reality but has not Realised Reality himself. He speaks about Love but has not Realised Love himself. He speaks about Consciousness but has not Realised Consciousness Himself.

And yet he still has the audacity to criticise cultish believers, when his own
demonstration is that of cultish believer. He has Realised nothing but comments on

everything. This is what the cultish bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the point of view of others and affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or intellectual or mind based point of view. He is the ultimate jokester. He is the ultimate fool. He is the epitome of self-delusion. But he will never put the word Realisation (God-Realisation or otherwise) beside his own name because then he would have to come up with the Goods. And he can't. He absolutely knows that he can't. He's not up to the Real Gig, so he tries to pull off the would be cult leader's cult busters gig. Yet all the while he knows that it's all bullshit. He secretly knows that he's not up to it.

He simply has no Realisation in relation to what he is always rapping about.


Much Love to you -- Senen

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

Yes, do share what you Know NOT what you OR OTHERS believe or doubt - Touchee!!!

Senny

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May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
 

Randy wrote:

Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi

Da Samraj in Person.  Am I correct in this assumption?  It has been said

that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of

spiritual effort".  Judi, I don't recall if you ever told me why you left

the Way of the Heart, but it seemed like it had something to do with not

wanting to be part of a group (ANY group).  Is that correct?  But to anyone

else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to
say?  Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?

I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and

understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been
developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm.  I've
tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and
over again, without fail.  But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy?  Really
and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any
given moment?  If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open
heart.  Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.
Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
or she has learned or been taught in the past.  I guarantee it will be an
heart-opening experience!

Love to all,
Randy

Touchee Randy. My sentiments exactly. The personal experience of the critics
(as noted in my last few extensive posts) are distinctly absent here!!!

 
Petros wrote in message <37434A...@earthlink.net>...

Senny

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May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
 

Bruce Morgen wrote:

Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com> wrote:

edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The
>Paradox of
>> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
>> >
>> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
>> >

I wouldn't for a moment
assume "unforeseen
consequences" in Da's
current activity.  He
can't help but know
that he is surrounded
and his livelihood
provided by a circus,
and that circus carries
its own lessons in the
joys and pitfalls of
bhakti sans discernment
and it underlines
Krishnamurti's 1929
assertion of the
limitations of "any
path," "any religion,"
and "any sect."

Do you find yourself in
agreement with Edwardji
regarding the existence
of "a weak moral and
ethical sense" in "an
enlightened being?"  Is

"a weak moral and

ethical sense" compatible
with the compassion
intrinsic to realization?

As seen from here a
realizer can certainly
make errors in decision-
making, but this is an
intellectual shortcoming
and not actually a "moral"
or "ethical" deficiency.
Love's impetus is perfect,
thought's service is (to
at least some extent, and
quite unavoidably) flawed.

For the one who didn't hear - repetition is the mother of all learning!!

The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO EXHAUSTIVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to. This is why their

language is coloured with tones of criticism, distant external, or non-participatory
observations and points of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY
SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the
discourses, and the communications of these individuals everywhere and note that it
NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the point of view of Realisation or personal
experience. They have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic
known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing, defending,
justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind -
ALWAYS.

Krishnamurti's 1929

assertion of the
limitations of "any
path," "any religion,"
and "any sect."

Do you find yourself in
agreement with Edwardji
regarding the existence
of "a weak moral and
ethical sense" in "an
enlightened being?"
 

They constantly use the references of others as substitute vocal pieces for their own inexperience or non-Realisation.

And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one who can FROM EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner
of Spiritual and Religious Communication.

The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never speaks from personal experience. He

always has some gibbering nonsense to say (and justify) about why he is saying what he
is saying. He never gets it! He never gets the fact that it's all about him!

Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick to tell you - No - (as secretly as

possible via personal email perhaps - just in case he should lose his self-presumed

status as authority from his own blind followers. Yet he is seen continuously

commenting on matters that are outside of his experience or direct knowledge.

He speaks about Realisation but has Realised nothing himself.

He speaks about the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself.
He speaks about Reality but has not Realised Reality himself.
He speaks about Love but has not Realised Love himself.
He speaks about Consciousness but has not Realised Consciousness Himself.

He has Realised nothing but comments on everything. This is what the cultish bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the point of view of others and affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or intellectual or mind based point of view. He is the ultimate jokester. He is the ultimate fool. He is the epitome of self-delusion.

Much Love again My Friend,

Senen

Bruce Morgen

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
True enough, and point
taken! Substitute any
moniker you please for
the reference to Adi Da
Samraj.

>The (trap being set, the bait is thrown out and in come the believers and the
>doubters in their droves - further confirming the above:
>
>... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming,
>criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind begins.... And
>one more word can be added here - sarcasm!
>

Just "fun" in another
jacket, Senen.

>The important thing to add or note in relation to 'the doubter' is that his doubt
>truly is blind. The blind and adolescent doubter has not made his statement or
>confession after spending years in feeling-contemplation of Adi Da Samraj or any
>other proclaimed God-Realiser whose calling is to Satsang. This is never, ever the
>case. This is why the language of the doubter is always analytically abstract, or
>non-personal in nature.
>

No doubt whatsoever was
expressed, just observing
devotee activity.

>The blind and inherently adolescent blind-doubter of Adi Da Samraj (or any other
>God-Realised Being whose Calling is to Satsang) NEVER, EVER responds by saying:
>
>"After years and years of feeling-contemplation of Avatar Adi Da's human bodily
>Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State (or any other God-Realised Being whose
>Calling is to Satsang) and really and truly and *exhaustively* considering this
>Single and Exclusive practise I conclude that....."
>

No conclusions were made
or expressed.

>This never happens. The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO EXHAUSTIVE
>EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to. This is why their
>language is coloured with tones of criticism, distant external, or
>non-participatory
>observations and points of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY
>SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the
>discourses, and the communications of these individuals everywhere and note that
>it NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the point of view of Realisation or
>personal experience.

Absolute ASS-umptive
bovine excrement -- I
suspect this is from
Adidam equivalent of the
conduct pamphlets
memorized by Mormon
and JW door-to-door
missionaries.

>They have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic
>known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing,
>defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all
>that is head or mind - ALWAYS. They want to be seen as Gurus through this purely
>intellectually based actvitity, however they never achieve what the True Guru (any
>True Guru) Demonstrates. And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one
>who can FROM
>EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner
>of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So they are very agressive (some more
>outwardly and others more passively) toward those who have Realised Something or
>those who have thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind
>zealots. However this is the very thing they deeply crave themselves. They want
>attention. They want admiration. They want to be seen as authories. They crave to
>be LOVED. But they are not loved. And they are not lovers. And they have all
>sorts of problems, complications and concerns with those that speak about Love or
>devotion.

Actually, no "problems,
complications," or
"concerns" at all -- like
the vast bulk of your
presentation, this is all
ASS-ump-tive guesswork
posing as compassionate
insight.

>If someone animates signs of devotion to them they have no problem, concern or
>complications but when it is to someone other than themselves then suddently it's
>not o.k and the critical pen comes out to play. But they never get the devotion
>they criticise in others (blind or otherwise). They certainly don't get it to the
>degree that the True Guru Gets it.

Or so the True Devotee
continually ASS-umes.

>And they are all over the place with their
>criticism, even of the thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or
>blind zealots - whatever they are reffered to as; however the key question
>continually beckons:
>
>"What the hell has the devotional response (blind or otherwise) got to do with
>you???
>"Why do you have a reaction to it?

I simply observe and
comment. Feel free to
continue to guess at my
motive(s), I feel quite
sure you can do much
better than you have so
far.

>Why are you always talking about it?
>

I only talk about clowns
when a circus is in
town. There's the
Bailey's Creme 'treya
Circus, the Michael
Martin Orthodox Sant
Mat Circus, The Fourth
Way Circus, The Jan Cox
Circus, and now the
Adidam Circus -- all
replete with amusements
most worthy of attention!

>And the answer, as is expected comes in the usual tones of criticism, sarcasm
>justification, distant, external, or non-participatory or non-personal
>observations and points of view that have nothing to do with them.
>
>The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never speaks from personal experience. He
>always has some gibbering nonsense to say (and justify) about why he is saying
>what he is saying. He never gets it! He never gets the fact that it's all about
>him!
>
>Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick to tell you - No - (as secretly
>as possible via personal email perhaps - just in case he should lose his
>self-presumed status as authority from his own blind followers.

What "followers?" As for
"Realiser" status, I
neither claim nor deny it,
let others so inclined
deploy labels as they see
fit.

>Yet he is seen
>continuously commenting on matters that are outside of his experience or direct
>knowledge. He speaks about Realisation but has Realised nothing himself. He speaks
>about the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself. He speaks about Reality
>but has not Realised Reality himself. He speaks about Love but has not Realised
>Love himself. He speaks about Consciousness but has not Realised Consciousness
>Himself.
>

Opinion (be-LIE-f) noted.

>And yet he still has the audacity to criticise cultish believers, when his own
>demonstration is that of cultish believer. He has Realised nothing but comments on
>everything. This is what the cultish bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the
>point of view of others and affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or
>intellectual or mind based point of view. He is the ultimate jokester. He is the
>ultimate fool. He is the epitome of self-delusion. But he will never put the word
>Realisation (God-Realisation or otherwise) beside his own name because then he
>would have to come up with the Goods. And he can't. He absolutely knows that he
>can't. He's not up to the Real Gig, so he tries to pull off the would be cult
>leader's gig. Yet all the while he knows that it's all bullshit. He secretly knows
>that he's not up to it. He is always in fear of being found out. He simply has no
>Realisation in relation to what he is always rapping about.
>

"He" knows what the "Real
Gig" is and does not need it
defined by others. thank you
very much for the gratuitous
analysis and instruction.

>This My Friend Bruce Morgan is all about you, and your strategy and your present
>life-gig, everyone is stuck somewhere in their non-Realisation, My Friend this is
>where YOU are stuck!!!!!
>

I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
this with all your heart.

>> Senen is obviously
>> an effusively happy camper,
>> and I harbor no intention
>> or hope of disrupting such
>> a joyful state. The circus
>> is in town, and with the
>> circus come the clowns, on
>
>> whose greasepainted faces
>>
>>> the smile never falters.
>>
>And to the Show come the sad, un-happy brain-tight spectators too afraid and
>loveless in their suppressed intellectual states to enjoy the Party.

On the contrary, the Party
is delightful, a glorious
amusement -- why would one
be "sad, unhappy," or
brain-tight" in the company
of such a dedicated clown?

>Having forgotten
>that life is about God of God and as God they come to the circus to be
>re-Awakened,
>re-Inspired, Humorously Mocked, they may Remember the Magic, the Joy and the
>un-reasonable Ecstacy that Is God and Is Life.
>
>My I have Served your much needed critical heart with Mad Joy, Ecstatic
>Pleasure and the memory of a Life empty of the un-happy and loveless mood
>of doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing,
>thinking, fear - or all that is head or mind. May your Heart-smile re-appear and
>Out-Shine the mirror of minds-i that is the Shade to Love's own-Felt Embrace!!
>

May your insight some day
approach in its prominence
your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
guesswork, and incredibly
repetitive verbosity. I
look forward to a time when
we can exchange views with
some degree of brevity and
conciseness on your part.


>
>Much Love to you My Friend - Know that I still Love you!!!
>

Thanks, right back atcha!

Senny

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
>      Bruce Morgen wrote:
>      >
>      > Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
>
>       Senen is obviously
>      > an effusively happy camper,
>      > and I harbor no intention
>      > or hope of disrupting such
>      > a joyful state.  The circus
>      > is in town, and with the
>      > circus come the clowns, on
>      > whose greasepainted faces
>      > the smile never falters.
>      >
>
>      *********
>      Great body slam Bruce!
>      That should just about do it!!! :-)
>
>      Judi
>
> The (trap being set, the bait is thrown out and in come the believers
> and the
> doubters in their droves - further confirming the above:
>
> ... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,
> affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head
> or mind begins.... And one
> more word can be added here - sarcasm!
>
> Wrestlers and Lovers only have one thing in common My Friend - and
> it's not a bodyslam, it's the Gift of being able to get into the Ring
> with all that is not Love or all that is lovessness, or asshole-ness, ugliness, anger and fear.
>
> The bell has Rung and Love is holding the World Championship Belt.
> Fortunately
> the bodyslammer was Bodyslammed By Loves Own Unique, Untouchable and
> Effortless, moveless Move!!!
>
> Much Love to you My Friend - The ring is Empty!!!!!
>
> Senen
>

************

And so is your brain!! :-) Thank God too, cause if you had one, you'd be dangerous! :-)

Thank God you noticed. I did say that the head had to be 'cut off' in case you don't remember!
And recopied from above - highlights added especially for you Judi:
... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind begins.... And one
> more word can be added here - sarcasm!
But all kidding aside, I think you need to spend some serious
time reading his books, cause you're not getting it.
All kidding aside you are not Getting It - At all - and perhaps spending too
much serious time with your head in your own books!!!!

Reading is for those (of which you have included yourself by
virtue of this response) who HAVEN'T Got It -- See below:

"What Attracted and continues to Attract me to the Person of Avatar Adi Da Samraj
is His Capacity To Transmit Real, Tangible and Un-deniable Spirit-Force, which I
characteristically felt as a descending Force crashing down through the crown and filling the entire body mind. This is what ocurred the first time I picked up a book 7 years ago and It has occurred ever since. This is my personal, and constant, personal
EXPERIENCE."

When you have Gotten This Judi you will never have the need to pick up any book

ever again. It's all over then Judi. If you'er stuck with books and you're not Getting It or
Feeling It Direct (and clearly your not by virtue of your advice) then that's your limit - that's why you need and recommend books - your prescription however is for you not for me - I am not in need of it. It is of no use to me whatsoever!!!

First comes insight and realization, then love and understanding
follow naturally.
That's your story and your going to stick with it. However it's not my story.

My personal experience is this:

First Came the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss and then Came the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss - Books are for the head.

So yes Judi take heed of your own comments - lose your brain - it's in the way of
your heart!!!

Books are for the head who has yet has not been awakened to this Tangible Force -

which is above and beyond the head and at the heart - in my *experience*!!!
 

Love Senen

Senny

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Great Brevity follows my friend:
Repeated for the sake of the author:

...and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing, defending,

justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind -
ALWAYS.

The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO EXHAUSTIVE PERSONAL

EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to. This is why their language is coloured with tones of criticism, distant external, or non-participatory observations and points of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the discourses, and the communications of these individuals everywhere and note that it NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the point of view of Realisation or personal experience.

>They have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic
>known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing,
>defending, justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all
>that is head or mind - ALWAYS.  They want to be seen as Gurus through this purely
>intellectually based actvitity, however they never achieve what the True Guru (any
>True Guru) Demonstrates. And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one
>who can FROM
>EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner
>of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So they are very agressive (some more
>outwardly and others more passively) toward those who have Realised Something or
>those who have thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind
>zealots. However this is the very thing they deeply crave themselves. They want
>attention. They want admiration. They want to be seen as authories. They crave to
>be  LOVED. But they are not loved. And they are not lovers. And they have all
>sorts of problems, complications and concerns with those that speak about Love or
>devotion.

Actually, no "problems,
complications," or
"concerns" at all -- like
the vast bulk of your
presentation, this is all
ASS-ump-tive guesswork
posing as compassionate
insight.

Repeated for the sake of the author:

...and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing, defending,

justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind -
ALWAYS.

 

>If someone animates signs of devotion to them they have no problem, concern or

>complications but when it is to someone other than themselves then suddently it's
>not o.k and the critical pen comes out to play. But they never get the devotion
>they criticise in others (blind or otherwise). They certainly don't get it to the
>degree that the True Guru Gets it.

Or so the True Devotee
continually ASS-umes.

>And they are all over the place with their
>criticism, even of the thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or
>blind zealots - whatever they are reffered to as; however the key question
>continually beckons:
>
>"What the hell has the devotional response (blind or otherwise) got to do with
>you???
>"Why do you have a reaction to it?

I simply observe and
comment.


The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO EXHAUSTIVE PERSONAL

EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to. This is why their language is coloured with tones of criticism, distant external, or non-participatory observations and points of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the discourses, and the communications of these individuals everywhere and note that it NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the point of view of Realisation or personal experience.
 

Feel free to

You denied it to me in a personal email - too afraid to let the whole world in on
it???

Quote:  "Realiser - No" - Now everyone knows Brucey.

Avatar Bruce Morgen Ananda?

Give me a break!!!

Bruce who are you trying to kid by neither affirming or denying? That's the oldest
trick in the book. Do you honestly expect me and others to believe that you are Realised???

Repeated for the sake of the author:

...and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing, defending,

justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind -

and sarcasm!

 

>This My Friend Bruce Morgan is all about you, and your strategy and your present
>life-gig, everyone is stuck somewhere in their non-Realisation, My Friend this is
>where YOU are stuck!!!!!
>
I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
this with all your heart.

 
>> Senen is obviously
>> an effusively happy camper,
>> and I harbor no intention
>> or hope of disrupting such
>> a joyful state.  The circus
>> is in town, and with the
>> circus come the clowns, on
>
>> whose greasepainted faces
>>
>>> the smile never falters.
>>
>And to the Show come the sad, un-happy brain-tight spectators too afraid and
>loveless in their suppressed intellectual states to enjoy the Party.

On the contrary, the Party
is delightful, a glorious
amusement -- why would one
be "sad, unhappy," or
brain-tight" in the company
of such a dedicated clown?

The name Bruce Morgen is not mentioned here or did you - ASS-ume???

>Having forgotten
>that life is about God of God and as God they come to the circus to be
>re-Awakened,
>re-Inspired, Humorously Mocked, they may Remember the  Magic, the Joy and the
>un-reasonable Ecstacy that Is God and Is Life.
>
>My I have Served your much needed critical heart with Mad Joy, Ecstatic
>Pleasure and the memory of a Life empty of the un-happy and loveless mood
>of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing,
>thinking, fear - or all that is head or mind. May your Heart-smile re-appear and
>Out-Shine the mirror of minds-i that is the Shade to Love's own-Felt Embrace!!
>
May your insight some day
approach in its prominence
your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
guesswork, and incredibly
repetitive verbosity.  I
look forward to a time when
we can exchange views with
some degree of brevity and
conciseness on your part.
 

I look forward to a time you can share your personal experience instead of
substituting external references for your own un-Realised understanding.

 

>>Much Love to you My Friend - Know that I still Love you!!!
>
Thanks, right back atcha!
 

You're welcome Friend!

Love Senen

Senny

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
[snipped for brevity]

>They have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic
>known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing,
>defending, justifying,  affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all
>that is head or mind - ALWAYS.  They want to be seen as Gurus through this purely
>intellectually based actvitity, however they never achieve what the True Guru (any
>True Guru) Demonstrates. And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one
>who can FROM EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So they are very agressive (some more outwardly and others more passively) toward those who have Realised Something or those who have thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind >zealots. However this is the very thing they deeply crave themselves. They want attention. They want admiration. They want to be seen as authories. They crave to be  LOVED. But they are not loved. And they are not lovers. And they have all sorts of problems, complications and concerns with those that speak about Love or devotion.

Actually, no "problems,
complications," or
"concerns" at all -- like
the vast bulk of your
presentation, this is all
ASS-ump-tive guesswork
posing as compassionate
insight.

The eternal catch-cry: where Bruce Morgan eternally cover his own ass. Everone
elses point of view is (according to Bruce) "ASS-ump-tive guesswork".
However when Bruces does the very same thing his attempts to camouflage his own comments which could equally be referred to (to use his own language "ASS-ump-tive guesswork") however what does Brucey prefers to call that?

Quote: "I simply observe and comment"

Translation: I'm ok. Bruce is great. Everyone else is stuffed.

Wake up and smell the roses my Friend!!!!!!

See below for Bruce Morgen Glossary of Hypocracy:

1. Or so the True Devotee
    continually ASS-umes.

2. I simply observe and

    comment.  Feel free to
    continue to guess at my
    motive(s), I feel quite
    sure you can do much
    better than you have so
    far.

3. Opinion (be-LIE-f) noted.

4. "He" knows what the "Real

    Gig" is and does not need it
     defined by others. thank you
     very much for the gratuitous
     analysis and instruction.

5. I'm sure you be-LIE-ve

    this with all your heart.

6. May your insight some day

    approach in its prominence
    your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
    guesswork, and incredibly
    repetitive verbosity.

>
Thanks, right back atcha! - You bet it is!

Love Senen
>

PS:  By the way the absence of your personal experience and confession in
all your communications is not "ASS-ump-tive guesswork". It is the case.
If you would like to dig up the archive of ALL our communications with me
you will see that this is absolutely true.

I welcome your demonstration me otherwise!!!

The bell is ringing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roger Isaacs

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to edi...@juno.com
In article <37444004...@news.pond.com>,

edi...@juno.com wrote:
> Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com> wrote:
>
> > edi...@juno.com wrote:
> >> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The
> >Paradox of
> >> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
> >> >
> >> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
> >> >
> >> Along similar lines, but
> >> centered on Osho, one
> >> might want to peruse the
> >> following site (I agree
> >> with a great deal of what
> >> Christopher says, but
> >> this does not comprise an
> >> outright endorsement):
> >

Despite his best efforts even Krishnamurti's
organization also seems pervaded by followers
"sans discernment".

> Do you find yourself in
> agreement with Edwardji
> regarding the existence
> of "a weak moral and
> ethical sense" in "an
> enlightened being?"

Actually I have little experience with Adi Da. What little
I've read by him strikes me as insightful & inspiring.

> Is
> "a weak moral and
> ethical sense" compatible
> with the compassion
> intrinsic to realization?

Is there any absolute measure of morality? Due to the
vast diversity in creation what is "good" seems to differ
according to individual perspective. "Ethical & Moral Sense"
seems partly like the skill of coordinating amidst difference and awareness
of cultural and other propriety. I'm not endorsing immoral behavior.
Just thinking that some people may not have as much gift
at coordination: even with the best of intentions our action
will never please everyone.

> As seen from here a
> realizer can certainly
> make errors in decision-
> making, but this is an
> intellectual shortcoming
> and not actually a "moral"
> or "ethical" deficiency.
> Love's impetus is perfect,
> thought's service is (to
> at least some extent, and
> quite unavoidably) flawed.

The impetus behind love
maybe perfect. Perhaps
the impetus _behind_ thought
is perfect as well. However,
this perfection when expressed
through an always limited mind/body
vehicle takes the coloring of that
imperfect vehicle.

Perhaps the imperfections of Saints
are a great blessing. I recall Jesus
quoted as saying something like "why do you
call me good, there is none good
but the Father". These very imperfections
suggest to us that we should look within
for the source of Spirit. Gurus can only
point to the door, the door is within us
and it's up to us to walk through it.

Roger
www.newu.org

Bruce Morgen

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
More robotic repetition doesn't
make feces into honey, Senen,
it just demonstrates that you
can copy & paste with the best
of them.
Your robotic repetition
simply demonstrates the
accuracy of my statement.

>>
>> >If someone animates signs of devotion to them they have no problem, concern or
>> >complications but when it is to someone other than themselves then suddently it's
>> >not o.k and the critical pen comes out to play. But they never get the devotion
>> >they criticise in others (blind or otherwise). They certainly don't get it to the
>> >degree that the True Guru Gets it.
>>
>> Or so the True Devotee
>> continually ASS-umes.
>>
>> >And they are all over the place with their
>> >criticism, even of the thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or
>> >blind zealots - whatever they are reffered to as; however the key question
>> >continually beckons:
>> >
>> >"What the hell has the devotional response (blind or otherwise) got to do with
>> >you???
>> >"Why do you have a reaction to it?
>>
>> I simply observe and
>> comment.
>
>The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO EXHAUSTIVE PERSONAL
>EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to.

So what -- does it take
shouted-out "EXHAUSTIVE
PERSONAL EXPERIENCE" to
see the self-evident?

>This is why their language is coloured
>with tones of criticism, distant external, or non-participatory observations and points
>of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY SIGNS of personal experience.
>None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the discourses, and the communications of
>these individuals everywhere and note that it NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the
>point of view of Realisation or personal experience.
>

Such is your be-LIE-f and
it is so noted. From a
pamphlet or perhaps
paraphrased from one...

I denied nothing.

>Quote: "Realiser - No" - Now everyone knows Brucey.
>

Senen, you are not only a
Da-programmed robot, you've
got reading problems -- the
phrase "Realiser - No" is
*yours*. As a nominal Yank
I wouldn't use that spelling
unless I was quoting
someone else. I keep copies
of all my outgoing mail, it
helps keep wishful thinkers
honest with themselves.

>Avatar Bruce Morgen Ananda?
>
At your service, by whatever
name you choose! :-)

>Give me a break!!!
>
Is there anything in
particular in need of
breaking? I wouldn't
dream of deciding on
your behalf!

>Bruce who are you trying to kid by neither affirming or denying?

Nobody.

>That's the oldest
>trick in the book.

I wouldn't know about
any precedents, but no
doubt they exist.

>Do you honestly expect me and others to believe that you are
>Realised???
>

Of course not, I have
no expectation whatsoever.

Puh-leeze spare all our readers
your robotic repetition, it is
entirely and consistenty
irrelevant to what it purports
to respond to.


>>
>> >This My Friend Bruce Morgan is all about you, and your strategy and your present
>> >life-gig, everyone is stuck somewhere in their non-Realisation, My Friend this is
>> >where YOU are stuck!!!!!
>> >
>> I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
>> this with all your heart.
>
>>
>> >> Senen is obviously
>> >> an effusively happy camper,
>> >> and I harbor no intention
>> >> or hope of disrupting such
>> >> a joyful state. The circus
>> >> is in town, and with the
>> >> circus come the clowns, on
>> >
>> >> whose greasepainted faces
>> >>
>> >>> the smile never falters.
>> >>
>> >And to the Show come the sad, un-happy brain-tight spectators too afraid and
>> >loveless in their suppressed intellectual states to enjoy the Party.
>>
>> On the contrary, the Party
>> is delightful, a glorious
>> amusement -- why would one
>> be "sad, unhappy," or
>> brain-tight" in the company
>> of such a dedicated clown?
>
>The name Bruce Morgen is not mentioned here or did you - ASS-ume???
>

Nonetheless, that is my
confession, are we playing
word games?

>> >Having forgotten
>> >that life is about God of God and as God they come to the circus to be
>> >re-Awakened,
>> >re-Inspired, Humorously Mocked, they may Remember the Magic, the Joy and the
>> >un-reasonable Ecstacy that Is God and Is Life.
>> >
>> >My I have Served your much needed critical heart with Mad Joy, Ecstatic
>> >Pleasure and the memory of a Life empty of the un-happy and loveless mood
>> >of doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing,
>> >thinking, fear - or all that is head or mind. May your Heart-smile re-appear and
>> >Out-Shine the mirror of minds-i that is the Shade to Love's own-Felt Embrace!!
>> >
>> May your insight some day
>> approach in its prominence
>> your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
>> guesswork, and incredibly
>> repetitive verbosity. I
>> look forward to a time when
>> we can exchange views with
>> some degree of brevity and
>> conciseness on your part.
>>
>
>I look forward to a time you can share your personal experience instead of
>substituting external references for your own un-Realised understanding.
>

What "external references,"
the occasional mention of
Watts or Krishnamurti?
Mea culpa, sir! Thank you
for a new experience --
being called "un-Realised"
by an obvious Da-bot!


>
>> >>Much Love to you My Friend - Know that I still Love you!!!
>> >
>> Thanks, right back atcha!
>>
>
>You're welcome Friend!
>
>Love Senen
>

Love to you too -- Bruce

Bruce Morgen

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to

Untrue -- note the tactic
of ASS-uming (this Da-speak
is really silly) that what
has been written of Senen
has been written of
"Everone" -- hey, wouldn't
"Everone" by a lovely new
honorific for Da? :-)

There are literally *dozens*
of people, some of them
frequenting these NGs, whose
words on these matters are
not the least bit assumptive.
You are not for the moment
one of them.

>However when Bruces does the very same thing his attempts to camouflage his own
>comments which could equally be referred to (to use his own language "ASS-ump-tive
>guesswork") however what does Brucey prefers to call that?
>
>Quote: "I simply observe and comment"
>
>Translation: I'm ok. Bruce is great. Everyone else is stuffed.
>

Here again, the assumption
that "Everyone else" is
somehow involved, and that a
declaration of personal
status has been issued --
neither is anywhere near
true, but they're both quite
convenient for a lazy would-
be rhetorician.

>Wake up and smell the roses my Friend!!!!!!
>
>> See below for Bruce Morgen Glossary of Hypocracy:
>>
>> 1. Or so the True Devotee
>> continually ASS-umes.
>>
>> 2. I simply observe and
>> comment. Feel free to
>> continue to guess at my
>> motive(s), I feel quite
>> sure you can do much
>> better than you have so
>> far.
>
>> 3. Opinion (be-LIE-f) noted.
>>
>> 4. "He" knows what the "Real
>> Gig" is and does not need it
>> defined by others. thank you
>> very much for the gratuitous
>> analysis and instruction.
>>
>> 5. I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
>> this with all your heart.
>>
>> 6. May your insight some day
>> approach in its prominence
>> your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
>> guesswork, and incredibly
>> repetitive verbosity.
>

I stand by every one of these
observations, given their
original context.


>> >
>> Thanks, right back atcha! - You bet it is!
>>
>> Love Senen
>> >
>
>PS: By the way the absence of your personal experience and confession in
>all your communications is not "ASS-ump-tive guesswork".

One either gets the experiential
resonance between and behind the
words of another or one doesn't,
Senen Don't let the absence of
explicit confession be mistaken
for the absence of "personal
experience." What you see is
what you see, I have no stake in
your assessment -- by all means
have it your way!

>It is the case.
>If you would like to dig up the archive of ALL our communications with me
>you will see that this is absolutely true.
>

I am not here to "confess" or to
convince you of anything, and I've
made no assertion of extraordinary
status to defend or justify. You
might as well try to cut falling
silk with a woodchopper's maul.

>I welcome your demonstration me otherwise!!!
>

You are beginning to write like
you're learning-disabled -- did
you run out of pamphlets? :-)

>The bell is ringing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
No, Senet is holding down the
"!" key.

Bruce Morgen

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Allen Crider <caps...@sirius.com> wrote:

>
>
>Randy wrote:
>>
>> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
>> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
>> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been said
>> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
>> spiritual effort".
>

>It has been said, but is that anywhere near a reliable truth?
>
>A minute with a Buddha is the mystical experience of the radiance of that being.
>Or perhaps an exchange of words. Judi got a fine whopper from a short exchange
>with the guru, and doesn't require any bhakti-based relationship. So if your got
>your minute, why stick around?

Exactly -- now I'll brave
Senen's citing me for
quoting Watts by restating
"When you've gotten the
message, hang up the phone."
If you're still on the line
you obviously (believe that
you) haven't gotten the
message -- enjoying a banana
doesn't make an imperative
of moving to Costa Rica and
working a plantation!

>At some point in the bhakti relationship the law
>of diminishing returns comes into force, eh?
>
>Why is there no long line of seekers waiting for their minute with Adi Da to
>achieve a lifetime of spiritual effort?
>
>And why doesn't Adi Da approach his work in this fashion? Why did he move to
>Fiji and not be of this world anymore?
>

>> But to anyone
>> else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
>> mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to
>> say?
>

>I have studied Adi Da's stuff, know many sincere devotees and have yet to find
>anything that wasn't synthesized from traditional, previous material.
>

Exactly my initial enquiry
with Senet, and confirmed
by sampling some of Da's
recent words -- a great
synthesizer/communicator,
but nothing new beyond his
unique way with words.

>Here in internet land, I'm fascinated with breakthrough spiritual thought. Got
>anything new from the guru?
>

His initial confessional post
implied "new" but there was
nothing novel beyond symantics.

>> Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?
>

>I am finished with Guru Bhakti. I was totally devoted and Bhakti fulfilled
>through gazing at my mother's eyes as a suckling infant. She was the perfect
>Guru, the all, the god being. Now, I have moved on other expressions of
>devotion.
>

>Adi Da is Adi Da. He has become, among other things, a mean son of a bitch, but
>perhaps has regained some of his formerly happy inner self following his recent
>visit to the US for glaucoma surgery.
>
Perhaps he should have added
some cannibis to his ample
and famous personal
pharmacopeia -- it's
supposed to do wonders for
glaucoma.

>> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and


>> understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been
>> developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm. I've
>> tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and
>> over again, without fail.
>

>This is what is important to any follower of ANY path. And, sincerely, Bhakti
>can be a valid path.
>

Absolutely!

>> But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy? Really
>> and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any
>> given moment?
>

>If one depends on the grace of another human being for one's own happiness, then
>perhaps there is some inner work to do.
>

Yes, the futility of seeking
does not end with dependence,
it ends with freedom.

>> If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open
>> heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.
>

>I suppose lack of inner happiness can be a reason to seek, but what if I'm
>already happy?
>

:-)

>> Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
>> Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
>> anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
>> or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will be an
>> heart-opening experience!
>

>So here's my quest... I'm looking for any new spiritual thought Adi Da has
>created. Westernizing Hindu and Buddhist thought doesn't count. That's old, old stuff.
>

Yup.

Bruce Morgen

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com> wrote:

>In article <37444004...@news.pond.com>,
> edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com> wrote:
>>
>> > edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> >> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>> >> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The
>> >Paradox of
>> >> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
>> >> >
>> >> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
>> >> >
>> >> Along similar lines, but
>> >> centered on Osho, one
>> >> might want to peruse the
>> >> following site (I agree
>> >> with a great deal of what
>> >> Christopher says, but
>> >> this does not comprise an
>> >> outright endorsement):
>> >

Yes, exactly -- the official
"K" Foundations are by no
means immune to the
observation, they are loaded
with posthumous sycophants.

>> Do you find yourself in
>> agreement with Edwardji
>> regarding the existence
>> of "a weak moral and
>> ethical sense" in "an
>> enlightened being?"
>
>Actually I have little experience with Adi Da. What little
>I've read by him strikes me as insightful & inspiring.
>

He was and still is an
astonishing writer, purely
wonderful!

>> Is
>> "a weak moral and
>> ethical sense" compatible
>> with the compassion
>> intrinsic to realization?
>
>Is there any absolute measure of morality? Due to the
>vast diversity in creation what is "good" seems to differ
>according to individual perspective. "Ethical & Moral Sense"
>seems partly like the skill of coordinating amidst difference and awareness
>of cultural and other propriety. I'm not endorsing immoral behavior.
>Just thinking that some people may not have as much gift
>at coordination: even with the best of intentions our action
>will never please everyone.
>

Thank you, well put and
well worth pondering.

>> As seen from here a
>> realizer can certainly
>> make errors in decision-
>> making, but this is an
>> intellectual shortcoming
>> and not actually a "moral"
>> or "ethical" deficiency.
>> Love's impetus is perfect,
>> thought's service is (to
>> at least some extent, and
>> quite unavoidably) flawed.
>
>The impetus behind love

>may be perfect. Perhaps


>the impetus _behind_ thought
>is perfect as well. However,
>this perfection when expressed
>through an always limited mind/body
>vehicle takes the coloring of that
>imperfect vehicle.
>

Yes, thank you.

>Perhaps the imperfections of Saints
>are a great blessing.

Indeed, it underlines their
humanity -- and ours!

>I recall Jesus
>quoted as saying something like "why do you
>call me good, there is none good
>but the Father". These very imperfections
>suggest to us that we should look within
>for the source of Spirit. Gurus can only
>point to the door, the door is within us
>and it's up to us to walk through it.
>

Amen!

>Roger
>www.newu.org
>
Much love -- Bruce

Senny

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
 

Bruce Morgen wrote:

Untrue --

NEW BOOK --- NEWSFLASH NEWSFLASH NEWSFLASH ---

The Dawn Horse Testament of Denial and Defense and counter-Everything and
Everyone

The extraordinary life-ordeal of Bruce Morgen whose life-work of Defense and
Justification is only Surpassed by His Ability To find Spelling Errors in His
Last Endeavour to Criticise when not unable to find further Loop-holes"

 
 

note the tactic
of ASS-uming (this Da-speak
is really silly) that what
has been written of Senen
has been written of
"Everone" -- hey, wouldn't
"Everone" by a lovely new
honorific for Da?  :-)

There are literally *dozens*
of people, some of them
frequenting these NGs, whose
words on these matters are
not the least bit assumptive.

And you are not one of them. Again speaking for the personal experiences of others
not being able to find anything in his own dried up reservoir of non-experience. My affirmations and confession are from personal experience yours my friend on the otherhand are from the most rear section of a much over-crowded spectator stand.

 
>However when Bruces does the very same thing his attempts to camouflage his own
>comments which could equally be referred to (to use his own language "ASS-ump-tive
>guesswork") however what does Brucey prefers to call that?
>
>Quote: "I simply observe and comment"
>
>Translation: I'm ok. Bruce is great. Everyone else is stuffed.
>

Here again, the assumption
that "Everyone else"

Here again further defense and justification.

is
somehow involved, and that a
declaration of personal
status has been issued --
neither is anywhere near
true, but they're both quite
convenient for a lazy would-
be rhetorician.

>Wake up and smell the roses my Friend!!!!!!

>
>> See below for Bruce Morgen Glossary of Hypocracy:
>>
>> 1. Or so the True Devotee
>>     continually ASS-umes.
>>
>> 2. I simply observe and
>>     comment.  Feel free to
>>     continue to guess at my
>>     motive(s), I feel quite
>>     sure you can do much
>>     better than you have so
>>     far.
>
>> 3. Opinion (be-LIE-f) noted.
>>
>> 4. "He" knows what the "Real
>>     Gig" is and does not need it
>>      defined by others. thank you
>>      very much for the gratuitous
>>      analysis and instruction.
>>
>> 5. I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
>>     this with all your heart.
>>
>> 6. May your insight some day
>>     approach in its prominence
>>     your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
>>     guesswork, and incredibly
>>     repetitive verbosity.
>

I stand by every one of these
observations, given their
original context.

How could you not! Surrender is not part of your vocabulary.

 
>> >
>> Thanks, right back atcha! - You bet it is!
>>
>> Love Senen
>> >
>
>PS:  By the way the absence of your personal experience and confession in
>all your communications is not "ASS-ump-tive guesswork".

One either gets the experiential

resonance between and behind the
words of another or one doesn't,
Senen  Don't let the absence of
explicit confession be mistaken
for the absence of "personal
experience."

Again I am wrong, you are right - however the absence of personal
experience (most especially in relation to Adi Da Samraj) remains!

What you see is
what you see, I have no stake in
your assessment -- by all means
have it your way!

>It is the case.

>If you would like to dig up the archive of ALL our communications with me
>you will see that this is absolutely true.
>

I am not here to "confess" or to
convince you of anything,

Of course not - chuckle chuckle!

and I've
made no assertion of extraordinary
status to defend or justify.


That is evident in some obscure cases.

You
might as well try to cut falling
silk with a woodchopper's maul.

>I welcome your demonstration me otherwise!!!
>

You are beginning to write like
you're learning-disabled -- did
you run out of pamphlets?  :-)

The hammer of cricism bangs once more!

 
>The bell is ringing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
No, Senet is holding down the
"!" key.

Much love -- Bruce

Bruce Morgen

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
jo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>Bruce Morgen wrote:
>>
>> Allen Crider <caps...@sirius.com> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>

>> >Adi Da is Adi Da. He has become, among other things, a mean son of a bitch, but
>> >perhaps has regained some of his formerly happy inner self following his recent
>> >visit to the US for glaucoma surgery.
>> >
>> Perhaps he should have added
>> some cannibis to his ample
>> and famous personal
>> pharmacopeia -- it's
>> supposed to do wonders for
>> glaucoma.
>

>If Adi Da is a regular user of marijuana he's just gone up 50 points in my book!
>
>;)
>

He's been said to be an avid
consumer of a number of
substances, I have no idea
if that's (still?) true or,
if true, what he currently
uses. I wonder of any of
his devotees are privy to
such information, for
whatever (little?) it's
worth. He's got plenty of
points in my book in any
case, a real piece of work!
:-)

Bruce Morgen

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Again, the assumption that
someone else other than
Senen and Bruce are
involved, most strange...

>The extraordinary life-ordeal of Bruce Morgen whose life-work of Defense and
>Justification is only Surpassed by His Ability To find Spelling Errors in His
>Last Endeavour to Criticise when not unable to find further Loop-holes"
>

I'll clue you in, Senen --
if I were the pit bull you
take me for you'd have
long ago been a carcass.
There is no need to find
"Loop-holes" in what
amounts one immense and
gaping "Loop-hole."


>
>> note the tactic
>> of ASS-uming (this Da-speak
>> is really silly) that what
>> has been written of Senen
>> has been written of
>> "Everone" -- hey, wouldn't
>> "Everone" by a lovely new
>> honorific for Da? :-)
>>
>> There are literally *dozens*
>> of people, some of them
>> frequenting these NGs, whose
>> words on these matters are
>> not the least bit assumptive.
>
>And you are not one of them.

OK, opinion noted.

>Again speaking for the personal experiences of others
>not being able to find anything in his own dried up reservoir of non-experience. My
>affirmations and confession are from personal experience yours my friend on the otherhand
>are from the most rear section of a much over-crowded spectator stand.
>

Ah, wishful thinking --
the last refuge of the
willfully blindfolded is
to assert that vision is
a fiction.


>>
>> >However when Bruces does the very same thing his attempts to camouflage his own
>> >comments which could equally be referred to (to use his own language "ASS-ump-tive
>> >guesswork") however what does Brucey prefers to call that?
>> >
>> >Quote: "I simply observe and comment"
>> >
>> >Translation: I'm ok. Bruce is great. Everyone else is stuffed.
>> >
>> Here again, the assumption
>> that "Everyone else"
>
>Here again further defense and justification.
>

It's called noting the
false -- is there some
kind of rule against that
in Adidam?

Quite easily, if you had
even remotely demonstrated
the hypocrisy you accuse
me of -- incidently,
doesn't that accusation
comprise the dreaded and
seeming proscribed
"criticism?"

>Surrender is not part of your vocabulary.
>

Actually surrender is the
song of my life.


>> >> >
>> >> Thanks, right back atcha! - You bet it is!
>> >>
>> >> Love Senen
>> >> >
>> >
>> >PS: By the way the absence of your personal experience and confession in
>> >all your communications is not "ASS-ump-tive guesswork".
>>
>> One either gets the experiential
>> resonance between and behind the
>> words of another or one doesn't,
>> Senen Don't let the absence of
>> explicit confession be mistaken
>> for the absence of "personal
>> experience."
>
>Again I am wrong, you are right - however the absence of personal
>experience (most especially in relation to Adi Da Samraj) remains!
>

We've long ago left Da
behind, you're all alone
now, as are we all.

>> What you see is
>> what you see, I have no stake in
>> your assessment -- by all means
>> have it your way!
>>
>> >It is the case.
>> >If you would like to dig up the archive of ALL our communications with me
>> >you will see that this is absolutely true.
>> >
>> I am not here to "confess" or to
>> convince you of anything,
>
>Of course not - chuckle chuckle!
>

I'm glad we agree - yuk yuk!

>> and I've
>> made no assertion of extraordinary
>> status to defend or justify.
>
>That is evident in some obscure cases.

Whatever that means....


>
>> You
>> might as well try to cut falling
>> silk with a woodchopper's maul.
>>
>> >I welcome your demonstration me otherwise!!!
>> >
>> You are beginning to write like
>> you're learning-disabled -- did
>> you run out of pamphlets? :-)
>
>The hammer of cricism bangs once more!
>

....and apparently finds its
mark. I have no cultic
restriction on having some
fun with an ill-formed,
meaningless sentence -- what
ever happened to the vaunted
Da-ish sense of humor and
lightness of demeanor?

Senny

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Bruce Morgen wrote:
Allen Crider <caps...@sirius.com> wrote:

>>Randy wrote:
>>
>> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
>> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
>> Da Samraj in Person.  Am I correct in this assumption?  It has been said
>> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
>> spiritual effort".
>
>It has been said, but is that anywhere near a reliable truth?
>
>A minute with a Buddha is the mystical experience of the radiance of that being.
>Or perhaps an exchange of words. Judi got a fine whopper from a short exchange
>with the guru, and doesn't require any bhakti-based relationship. So if your got
>your minute, why stick around?

Exactly -- now I'll brave
Senen's citing me for
quoting Watts by restating
"When you've gotten the
message, hang up the phone."
If you're still on the line
you obviously (believe that
you) haven't gotten the
message

Again for the record Bruce my history has some similarity to Judi's:

Seven years ago I was a young and new devotee and I was sensitive to, felt and
was receiving Adi Da's Spiritual Transmission right from the beginning.

After a couple of years I was a part of a 6th stage practise consideration. He
and the Kanyas invited responses from around the world from anyone who truly and seriously wanted this Direct relationship to Him and were willing to give up everything for the purpose of God-Realisation and enter into the 6th stage practise. He invited the confessions of devotees directly to Him. The 'mature' practitioners of the community (about 8 practitioners) in Melbourne Australia had a consideration with me about this. All of them said it was ridiculous that I send through my confession and intention. That I had only been around a few years and that it would be offensive to Him to send it across. All refused to support my direct communication with Him. I remember saying to a devotee, (immediately after he very righteously said he would not support it, and that it shouldn't happen) that if Adi Da  really wants to receive my confession He will find a way for me to get it to Him regardless of what you think or say. Well needless to say Mysteriously 12 hours later a communication went through to the world gathering saying that He wanted to receive ALL confessions and that no 'insiders' should be allowed to block or censor any communication.

I then duly sent Him my confession. He didn't respond directly, however within a few days a process began in me. I felt unusually feverish while at a Christmas break-up and felt that if I didn't get home soon I would pass out.

I managed to drive home, my body getting hotter and hotter and energy wildly entering my body from above and swirling through me like a raging river. I stopped at a petrol station and bought a 1 litre bottle of apple and black current juice just before getting home.

As soon as I walked in the door all the energy that was animating my body slowly began moving out of my body. A stumbled to my bedroom where I collapsed on the futon mattress that served as my bed at the time. My body was so weak and limp that I could hardly raise my hand any higher than 5 inches. The fever that continued raging through my head and my body was almost unbearable. I couldn't get up. I couldn't escape.  I had no phone. I was living alone at the time. I was in a secure apartment that was as protected as Fort Knox 9(sp?). And I had not enough energy to get up and call for help. And furthermore my cell/mobile phone had just died and I had left my battery charger (uncharacteristically) at work. I was Forced to endure it. I felt I was going to die.

For the next 3 days this raging fever persisted. My body was pulsating like a wild and out of control vibrator . I had no food at home. I had spontaneously been moved to adopt a fruitarian diet over the previous 6 months and the purchase of food was a daily event I had strangely bypassed on this day. All I had was my 1 litre bottle of apple and black current juice to sustain my lifeless body for the next 6 days. On the 2nd day (Saturday) I was able crawl to the bathroom to dampen a towel so that I could cool my burning face and forehead. As soon as I got back to my bed however, all energy I had to crawl to the bathroom had left me - again I was paralyzed. The process continued.

All the while the only thing I could remember were Adi Da's words.... "The time of your greatest suffering and greatest disturbance are the most important times to turn your attention to me, they are the greatest opportunities for purification". I had a copy of one of His books beside me. The book had His photo on the cover, so as much as I could I would grant attention to His Form rather than to my body, my sensations or my mind.
In the pst such turning of my attention immediately dissolves any limitation i was experiencing, however on this occasion I was not conscious of such dissolution. The only dissolution that seems to me going on was the dissolution of the one I referred to as me.

Each night I would get a few hours sleep before waking to the same torment. This persisted for a further 3 days. On the Fifth day one of the guys I worked with managed to bypass the security entrance and sneaked into the apartment complex by pretending to be a tenant while another actual tenant was opening the security door. It was so uncharacteristic of me not to call work on a day off (especially 2 days in a row) that they sent someone to my apartment to make sure I was ok. I initially heard the buzzer but I still had no energy to get up. When he began knocking on the door I remember feeling a sense of relief that help had finally arrived.  However as soon as he knocked my voice box stopped functioning. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't speak to let him know that I was inside and I didn't have enough energy to lift my arm and throw something to make a noise. It was like a movie scene. He left, and I was stuck there for another day.

On the seventh day I woke up and it was as if nothing had ever happened. There were no signs of deterioration whatsoever. In fact I felt better than I had in my whole life - and  one thing was entirely different. I wasn't thinking anymore. The Descending Force I had felt while contemplating Adi Da all the moments and years previously was my now my constant Companion. It was there from the moment I woke up to the moment I went to sleep. I no longer had to seek or find it to locate it. And from that day on I no longer had the experience of thinking. Sometimes (although very rarely) memories would spontaneously arise, however my relationship to them was radically different. Whereas
before they were *my* memories, now they were as impersonal as seagulls flying by in
the distance. I Knew (prior to mind) that Adi Da had spontaneously Initiated me into the 6th stage practise. The practise where thinking or mind is utterly transcended.

Soon after that I spontaneously left the community. In fact I didn't leave as such, the 3 of us that were living in the same household all moved out within a couple of weeks.
I moved to an apartment on my own and no-one from the community bothered to contact me and I didn't bother contacting the community. Some time later those I recommenced contact with those I was intimate with. And and like Judi every now and then I had the feeling that they didn't care etc. It was some time before I understood what I previously could not comprehend. Like Judi I felt angry toward the community and was very critical and righteous towards many within the community. However I never withdrew from my practise. I never withdrew from Adi Da. And He never withdrew from me. And it was quite a process before I 'saw' that I was dramatising the very thing I was criticising in the community. I was dramatising un-Love. It had nothing to do with them and everything to do with me. I wanted them to contact me, love me, to give me attention. However I also noticed that in every moment that I did this I was not giving my feeling-attention to Adi Da's Form or His Descending Force which had remained as my constant Companion and Resort. This revelation was given to me because I didn't recoil from Adi Da. Someone said to me once "Go for the Guru not the devotee" and I
never forgot this no matter how critical I became of the community.

I knew I had to leave the community, drop all the formal practises and disciplines that I had embraced wholeheartedly over the years. I had to learn to simply resort one-pointedly to this Descending Force and Presence. And I had to do it in the world, without support. In the cut and thrust of business - not in an ashram or a monestry. The stallions energies had been harnessed and it was time to let him loose.  I knew that in every moment of reaction to any and every devotee,  that I was actually simultaneously recoiling or contracting from Adi Da and this Descending Force that obliterated all lovelessness, all need, all desiring, or all that is un-Love. It seems crazy now that I look back that it was even possible to make such a choice, however Adi Da is right... the act of egoity is incomprehensible and the ego is a formidable opponent for the Divine.

I have not formally reassociated with the community because my life since then has been what I had always wanted it to be - a spontaneous and effortless,  undisturbed moment  to moment existence. I still love everyone in the community and can see them all in a radically new light. Much has been revealed about the character of Narcissus and it is
clear to me that the process is not absolutely complete.

Last year I moved to another state only to find strangers who when I introduced them to Adi Da's videos spontaneously had a response to him. And so I now live in a co-operative household with others who are not formally associated but have a strong response to Adi Da. I still advocate and Love him profoundly. He is very Real to me as a Force and a Presence, and His bodily Form still has the same effect when I contemplate or see it. It is obvious now more than ever before (since He no longer Teaches or Speaks) that His Manifestation and Sign is more Force-full and Obvious
than it ever has. And all of this without ever having set foot in front of His physical form. I Know He was the Source of this Transformation, and my desperate longing to see Him physically likewise vanished in that Event. He gave me the Gift I most wanted - the direct relationship to Him as He Is.

Maybe one day I'll see Him physically and maybe one day I'll reassociate formally - I don't know, however one thing is certain,  the absence of that which moved me to associate to begin with has been Filled. I was re-Awakened to what I was seeking.

Be tolerant of my Fun and Games - It really is all meaningless Play for me now.

My Love to you Bruce and to all,

Senen

[snipped for brevity]

Senny

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Heart Happy wrote:
[snip]

*******
Da moved the day after I met him to Hawaii. I had many far out
insightful blissful experiences during my 4 months there at the ashram
in Clear Lake,
and I found myself crying and laughing quite a bit, but I was shunned by
the other devotees and they were not very nice to me. I thought that it
would be a place
of realization and understanding, from reading his books at least, but
it's not.
A bunch of sheep is what you have there. Now perhaps if he would have
been there
with me it might have been a different story, but I left and came back
to
Santa Cruz. I thought they were all pretty stupid actually, they all had
blinders on.
 

Judi your honest post has moved me to write the following:

Again for the record Bruce my history has some similarity to Judi's:

Seven years ago I was a young and new devotee and I was sensitive to, felt and
was receiving Adi Da's Spiritual Transmission right from the beginning.

After a couple of years I was a part of a 6th stage practise consideration. He
and the Kanyas invited responses from around the world from anyone who truly and seriously wanted this Direct relationship to Him and were willing to give up everything for the purpose of God-Realisation and enter into the 6th stage practise. He invited the confessions of devotees directly to Him. The 'mature' practitioners of the community (about 8 practitioners) in Melbourne Australia had a consideration with me about this. All of them said it was ridiculous that I send through my confession and intention. That I had only been around a few years and that it would be offensive to Him to send it across. All refused to support my direct communication with Him. I remember saying to a devotee, (immediately after he very righteously said he would not support it, and that it shouldn't happen) that if Adi Da  really wants to receive my confession He will find a way for me to get it to Him regardless of what you think or say. Well needless to say Mysteriously 12 hours later a communication went through to the world gathering saying that He wanted to receive ALL confessions and that no 'insiders' should be allowed to block or censor any communication.

I then duly sent Him my confession. He didn't respond directly, however within a few days a process began in me. I felt unusually feverish while at a Christmas break-up and felt that if I didn't get home soon I would pass out.

I managed to drive home, my body getting hotter and hotter and energy wildly entering my body from above and swirling through me like a raging river. I stopped at a petrol station and bought a 1 litre bottle of apple and black current juice just before getting home.

As soon as I walked in the door all the energy that was animating my body slowly began moving out of my body. A stumbled to my bedroom where I collapsed on the futon mattress that served as my bed at the time. My body was so weak and limp that I could hardly raise my hand any higher than 5 inches. The fever that continued raging through my head and my body was almost unbearable. I couldn't get up. I couldn't escape.  I had no phone. I was living alone at the time. I was in a secure apartment that was as protected as Fort Knox 9(sp?). And I had not enough energy to get up and call for help. And furthermore my cell/mobile phone had just died and I had left my battery charger (uncharacteristically) at work. I was Forced to endure it. I felt I was going to die.

For the next 3 days this raging fever persisted. My body was pulsating like a wild and out of control vibrator . I had no food at home. I had spontaneously been moved to adopt a fruitarian diet over the previous 6 months and the purchase of food was a daily event I had strangely bypassed on this day. All I had was my 1 litre bottle of apple and black current juice to sustain my lifeless body for the next 6 days. On the 2nd day (Saturday) I was able crawl to the bathroom to dampen a towel so that I could cool my burning face and forehead. As soon as I got back to my bed however, all energy I had to crawl to the bathroom had left me - again I was paralyzed. The process continued.

All the while the only thing I could remember were Adi Da's words.... "The time of your greatest suffering and greatest disturbance are the most important times to turn your attention to me, they are the greatest opportunities for purification". I had a copy of one of His books beside me. The book had His photo on the cover, so as much as I could I would grant attention to His Form rather than to my body, my sensations or my mind.
In the pst such turning of my attention immediately dissolves any limitation i was experiencing, however on this occasion I was not conscious of such dissolution. The only dissolution that seems to me going on was the dissolution of the one I referred to as me.

Each night I would get a few hours sleep before waking to the same torment. This persisted for a further 3 days. On the Fifth day one of the guys I worked with managed to bypass the security entrance and sneaked into the apartment complex by pretending to be a tenant while another actual tenant was opening the security door. It was so uncharacteristic of me not to call work on a day off (especially 2 days in a row) that they sent someone to my apartment to make sure I was ok. I initially heard the buzzer but I still had no energy to get up. When he began knocking on the door I remember feeling a sense of relief that help had finally arrived.  However as soon as he knocked my voice box stopped functioning. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't speak to let him know that I was inside and I didn't have enough energy to lift my arm and throw something to make a noise. It was like a movie scene. He left, and I was stuck there for another day.

On the seventh day I woke up and it was as if nothing had ever happened. There were no signs of deterioration whatsoever. In fact I felt better than I had in my whole life - and  one thing was entirely different. I wasn't thinking anymore. The Descending Force I had felt while contemplating Adi Da all the moments and years previously was my now my constant Companion. It was there from the moment I woke up to the moment I went to sleep. I no longer had to seek or find it to locate it. And from that day on I no longer had the experience of thinking. Sometimes (although very rarely) memories would spontaneously arise, however my relationship to them was radically different. Whereas
before they were *my* memories, now they were as impersonal as seagulls flying by in
the distance. I Knew (prior to mind) that Adi Da had spontaneously Initiated me into the 6th stage practise. The practise where thinking or mind is utterly transcended.

Soon after that I spontaneously left the community. In fact I didn't leave as such, the 3 of us that were living in the same household all moved out within a couple of weeks.
I moved to an apartment on my own and no-one from the community bothered to contact me and I didn't bother contacting the community. Some time later those I recommenced contact with those I was intimate with. And and like Judi every now and then I had the feeling that they didn't care etc. It was some time before I understood what I previously could not comprehend. Like Judi I felt angry toward the community and was very critical and righteous towards many within the community. However I never withdrew from my practise. I never withdrew from Adi Da. And He never withdrew from me. And it was quite a process before I 'saw' that I was dramatising the very thing I was criticising in the community. I was dramatising un-Love. It had nothing to do with them and everything to do with me. I wanted them to contact me, love me, to give me attention. However I also noticed that in every moment that I did this I was not giving my feeling-attention to Adi Da's Form or His Descending Force which had remained as my constant Companion and Resort. This revelation was given to me because I didn't recoil from Adi Da. Someone said to me once "Go for the Guru not the devotee" and I
never forgot this no matter how critical I became of the community.

I knew I had to leave the community, drop all the formal practises and disciplines that I had embraced wholeheartedly over the years. I had to learn to simply resort one-pointedly to this Descending Force and Presence. And I had to do it in the world, without support. In the cut and thrust of business - not in an ashram or a monestry. The stallions energies had been harnessed and it was time to let him loose.  I knew that in every moment of reaction to any and every devotee,  that I was actually simultaneously recoiling or contracting from Adi Da and this Descending Force that obliterated all lovelessness, all need, all desiring, or all that is un-Love. It seems crazy now that I look back that it was even possible to make such a choice, however Adi Da is right... the act of egoity is incomprehensible and the ego is a formidable opponent for the Divine.

I have not formally reassociated with the community because my life since then has been what I had always wanted it to be - a spontaneous and effortless,  undisturbed moment  to moment existence. I still love everyone in the community and can see them all in a radically new light. Much has been revealed about the character of Narcissus and it is
clear to me that the process is not absolutely complete.

Last year I moved to another state only to find strangers who when I introduced them to Adi Da's videos spontaneously had a response to him. And so I now live in a co-operative household with others who are not formally associated but have a strong response to Adi Da. I still advocate and Love him profoundly. He is very Real to me as a Force and a Presence, and His bodily Form still has the same effect when I contemplate or see it. It is obvious now more than ever before (since He no longer Teaches or Speaks) that His Manifestation and Sign is more Force-full and Obvious
than it ever has. And all of this without ever having set foot in front of His physical form. I Know He was the Source of this Transformation, and my desperate longing to see Him physically likewise vanished in that Event. He gave me the Gift I most wanted - the direct relationship to Him as He Is.

Maybe one day I'll see Him physically and maybe one day I'll reassociate formally - I don't know, however one thing is certain,  the absence of that which moved me to associate to begin with has been Filled. I was re-Awakened to what I was seeking.

And I understand that you have to do what you have to do - all I proffer is not to
relinquish the Gift too hastily - It is available to us - regardless! And re-consider the re-directed blame. That's all my friend. No zealot left here. Just an ingredient to throw
into the pot - freely take it out and throw it away if you wish.

Be tolerant of my Fun and Games in the meantime - It really is all

meaningless Play for me now.

My Love to you Judi,

Senen

 
> [snip]

Roger Isaacs

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to se...@hotkey.net.au
Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:

Lighten up already. Don't you see that your trail in this post is
littered with the very debris that you speak of? Recall that Chinese
aphorism: when you point your finger in blame please note that three
fingers point back at yourself!

"Cooperation + Tolerance = Peace"

Why do we need tolerance? The world is filled with diversity and the
human ego before enlightenment is mainly concerned with expanding it's
security & power by opposing that which is different.

Tolerance of difference is an improvement, however it is not the end.

Tolerance can evolve into genuine appreciation of difference. But in
order to achieve this we have to join in cooperation and step outside
the egoic opposites such as doubting/believing, defending/criticising
etc. Doesn't your post show that you are firmly entrenched in these
opposites?

> They constantly use the references of others as substitute vocal
pieces for
> their own inexperience or non-Realisation.
>
> And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one who can FROM
> EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner
> of Spiritual and Religious Communication.

So you're claiming "direct realisation" Senny? If not then I guess
you're just "using the reference of others", something which you
condemn. So you condemn yourself. Your criticising of others betrays an
ego locked in conflict with itself.

> The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never speaks from personal
> experience. He
> always has some gibbering nonsense to say (and justify) about why he
is
> saying what he
> is saying. He never gets it! He never gets the fact that it's all
about him!

Are there any mirrors in your house?

> Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick to tell you - No -
(as
> secretly as
> possible via personal email perhaps - just in case he should lose his
> self-presumed
> status as authority from his own blind followers. Yet he is seen
> continuously
> commenting on matters that are outside of his experience or direct
> knowledge.
>
> He speaks about Realisation but has Realised nothing himself.
> He speaks about the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself.
> He speaks about Reality but has not Realised Reality himself.
> He speaks about Love but has not Realised Love himself.
> He speaks about Consciousness but has not Realised Consciousness
Himself.

Ok Senny, So apparently you claim to have "Realized Truth", "Realized
Love", "Realized Reality", "Realized Consciousness"? If this is true
then why does your post reek of criticism rather than cooperation and
tolerance?

> He has Realised nothing but comments on everything. This is what the
cultish
> bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the point of view of others
and
> affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or intellectual or mind
based
> point of view.

Does this describe you?

> He is the ultimate jokester. He is the ultimate fool. He is
> the epitome of self-delusion.
>
> Much Love again My Friend,
>
> Senen

I think one issue this post explores is something like "do the
enlightened always display perfect moral & ethical balance?"

Because of the diversity in this world, because there are ALWAYS
multiple ways to look at any situation, I'm suggesting that morality,
like beauty, is significantly in the eye of the beholder.

There is no such thing as perfect moral/ethical behavior because
different folks judge with different criteria.

Again, the words of Jesus 'why do you call me good, there is none good
but the Father'.

If Adi Da's behavior raises questions then it's a blessing in disguise
because NO guru can ever totally meet the needs of ALL people. We need
to depend less on the external Guru and discover the real Guru "the
innocent guiding self within (MMY)".

BTW, my mentor recommends Adi Da as a teacher and I do have a link to
the Adi Da web site from mine.

Bruce Morgen

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:

[snip]

Thank you for your heartfelt
testimony, it requires no
comment from here.

Much love -- Bruce

Roger Isaacs

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to edi...@juno.com

This is a f-f-fascinating p-p-phenomenon (a lisp ala Daffy Duck ).

I have great reverence for Osho. His work to me seems genuinely
inspired. Yet his followers caused havoc.

I have great reverence for Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Yet his followers
seem to border on elitism, superiority, and the usual intolerance for
those with a different approach.

I have great reverence for Jesus, however the havoc caused by his
followers is unparalleled in human history. ( a favorite book 'The Dark
Side of Christian History' )
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964487349/qid%3D927298979/002-
8137239-2716055

Seems that whatever approach an enlightened leader takes, his/her
followers acting from the ego always corrupt the message. No matter
what archetype a leader may use to express the inexpressable, the
Ultimate remains beyond expression, beyond communication.

This must be a design of nature so that we will not mistake the
messenger for the goal. We might look outward to leaders for
inspiration but the goal is within us.

Roger Isaacs

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to ra...@worksoft.com
In article <7i26qc$r4s$1...@remarQ.com>,

"Randy" <ra...@worksoft.com> wrote:
> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this
thread,
> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen
Bhagavan Adi
> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been
said
> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime
of
> spiritual effort". Judi, I don't recall if you ever told me why you

left
> the Way of the Heart, but it seemed like it had something to do with
not
> wanting to be part of a group (ANY group). Is that correct? But to

anyone
> else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an
open
> mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers
have to
> say? Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi
Da?
>

> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
> understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching

Because Adi's teaching is true, and I believe it is, does not mean that
other paths are false. Truth is a multi-colored thing, like the blind
men and the elephant. I think the essence of cooperation & tolerance
demands respect & appreciation for difference.

> and Company have been
> developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's
enthusiasm. I've
> tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated
over and

> over again, without fail. But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy?


Really
> and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life
at any

> given moment? If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and


open
> heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully
satisfied!.

> Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to
criticize
> Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation
with
> anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against
whatever he
> or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will
be an
> heart-opening experience!
>

> Love to all,
> Randy

BTW, Randy, thanks for posting http://peace.adidam.org/EssayEntry.htm
here recently. The message is _very_ important, inspiring, and I'm in
near full agreement.

Heart Happy

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Dear Senny,

Your history is a lot like mine. But what happened to me Senny was
one night after all those years of seeking and having experiences I
went into a deeper place within myself and found myself heartbroken
of the whole business with no where to really turn. And I saw that
I was suffering. And there was no God, no teacher, no teaching that
I could turn to anymore that could alleviate my suffering, because
I felt that I had just been thru it all. So I took a deep breath,
dried my eyes and looked to myself to see if I had errored somehow
in my approach because I saw that under it all I was still not
satisfied.
My life had been about love and surrender to the teaching. And I really
took a deep look at that and what I discovered was that all my effort
was simply a selfish activity of looking for a payoff and everything
about myself was rallied around this activity. And I saw that my
activity
was simply suffering itself. It was my own activity of seeking
and looking towards some experience, always geared towards the future
that would somehow bring final relief. I wanted my payoff. But the
problem
that I ran into was I found that there was no way for me to continue
with
this effort if all it was was seeking. Because I saw that all my love
and effort was not realy love at all, so what was I do, who was I to be?
I was left with no way to
construct an identity or a life period. And that is when my heart really
broke
and I was left alone and in the dark, literally with no way to continue.
And surrender overtook me. And then within the next moment energy filled
me and my eyes opened and I immediately and directly understood.
I was left simply as myself, which was "no seeking". And I saw that I
*was*
everything, literally! There was nothing in existence, no experience, no
other,
no love, no nothing, that was not literally *me* - which was
consciousness
itself. So, what I am saying to you Senen is that your hearts desire is
not
to be found within experience all by itself, no matter how energeticaly
blissful and far out. So much the worse for it. :-) You've got to get
to the point where there is
no one left to witness or enjoy. Who was born? No one. Who's gonna die?
No one.
Who's gonna enjoy and take advantage of this enlightenment? Me!! :-)

Judi

--

Bruce Morgen

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com> wrote:

>This is a f-f-fascinating p-p-phenomenon (a lisp ala Daffy Duck ).
>

Yes, and an astonishingly
and persistently recurrent
one, century after century
after century.

>I have great reverence for Osho. His work to me seems genuinely
>inspired. Yet his followers caused havoc.
>

Chrisopher Calder's website
is very informative about
Osho -- an interesting,
complex man and, as you
state, "genuinely inspired."

>I have great reverence for Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Yet his followers
>seem to border on elitism, superiority, and the usual intolerance for
>those with a different approach.
>

Yes, and "MMY" is still
alive as the decay in the
TM estabishment proceeds
apace.

>I have great reverence for Jesus, however the havoc caused by his
>followers is unparalleled in human history. ( a favorite book 'The Dark
>Side of Christian History' )
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964487349/qid%3D927298979/002-
>8137239-2716055
>

Yup, quite amazing, and
the betrayal of Jesus'
life and work began with
Paul -- Christianity
really ought to be called
Paulianism, a religion
Jesus would have regarded
with befuddlement I'm
sure.

>Seems that whatever approach an enlightened leader takes, his/her
>followers acting from the ego always corrupt the message.

Yes, precisely.

>No matter
>what archetype a leader may use to express the inexpressable, the
>Ultimate remains beyond expression, beyond communication.
>

Indeed, one can only
point.

>This must be a design of nature so that we will not mistake the
>messenger for the goal. We might look outward to leaders for
>inspiration but the goal is within us.
>

Always.

Roger Isaacs

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to edi...@juno.com
In article <374583af...@news.pond.com>,
> >This is a f-f-fascinating p-p-phenomenon (a lisp ala Daffy Duck ).
> >
> Yes, and an astonishingly
> and persistently recurrent
> one, century after century
> after century.
>
> >I have great reverence for Osho. His work to me seems genuinely
> >inspired. Yet his followers caused havoc.
> >
> Chrisopher Calder's website
> is very informative about
> Osho -- an interesting,
> complex man and, as you
> state, "genuinely inspired."
>
> >I have great reverence for Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Yet his followers
> >seem to border on elitism, superiority, and the usual intolerance for
> >those with a different approach.
> >
> Yes, and "MMY" is still
> alive as the decay in the
> TM estabishment proceeds
> apace.

you've got it right.

> >I have great reverence for Jesus, however the havoc caused by his
> >followers is unparalleled in human history. ( a favorite book 'The
Dark
> >Side of Christian History' )
> >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964487349/qid%
3D927298979/002-
> >8137239-2716055
> >
> Yup, quite amazing, and
> the betrayal of Jesus'
> life and work began with
> Paul -- Christianity
> really ought to be called
> Paulianism, a religion
> Jesus would have regarded
> with befuddlement I'm
> sure.

Paul was faced with a most difficult task, no, make that an impossible
task! Glad I wasn't in that seat. What a great sacrifice to even
attempt such a task. ( I profess to have not studied Paul very much )

Elaine Pagel's discusses writings from the early fathers of the Church.
These leaders demanded faith without reason (Bhakti sans discernment)
perhaps because they were somehow threatened by questions or certainly
they seemed most interested in advancing their authority.

I think Bhakti ( devotion / transcendance through expansive feeling )
is just as valid as other paths. The question for me is does one have
the natural propensity of devotion? OR does one have an innate skill at
being lead to the transcendant by another path such as Discernment (
Gyana Yoga ). I think finding one's natural gift is the key.

I'm speculating here cause I'm not a Bhakta, but seems to me like
devotion only becomes ripe when TWOness transforms into ONEness. That
is: while there is still the devotee & the object of devotion, there is
separation. To be effective devotion must at somepoint transcend the
separation. And I don't think everyone has this particular skill of
transcendance through devotion, others may have the skill at
transcending through the intellect, the will etc.

Christ to me is the most extraordinary example of the potential latent
in the human form. But Christianity has turned it around and made him
the ONLY son of God, has made Christ Consciousness something
unattainable, has made Christ an IDOL depite the prolific warnings
against idolatry. Christianity has used the word "faith" to ensure
order and conformity on a political level. This is NOT Bhakti! It's
just another play in the human drama of security & power. Doesn't
"faith" ultimately mean "faith in oneself"? Faith in anything external
will always be disappointed.

Roger
www.newu.org

> >Seems that whatever approach an enlightened leader takes, his/her
> >followers acting from the ego always corrupt the message.
>
> Yes, precisely.
>
> >No matter
> >what archetype a leader may use to express the inexpressable, the
> >Ultimate remains beyond expression, beyond communication.
> >
> Indeed, one can only
> point.
>
> >This must be a design of nature so that we will not mistake the
> >messenger for the goal. We might look outward to leaders for
> >inspiration but the goal is within us.
> >
> Always.
>

> __________________________________________________
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>
> m(_ _)m
>

Petros

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Senny wrote:
>
snip

> Seven years ago I was a young and new devotee and I was sensitive to,
> felt and
> was receiving Adi Da's Spiritual Transmission right from the
> beginning.
>
> After a couple of years I was a part of a 6th stage practise
> consideration. He
> and the Kanyas invited responses from around the world from anyone who
> truly and seriously wanted this Direct relationship to Him and were
> willing to give up everything for the purpose of God-Realisation and
> enter into the 6th stage practise. He invited the confessions of
> devotees directly to Him. The 'mature' practitioners of the community
> (about 8 practitioners) in Melbourne Australia had a consideration
> with me about this. All of them said it was ridiculous that I send
> through my confession and intention. That I had only been around a few
> years and that it would be offensive to Him to send it across. All
> refused to support my direct communication with Him.

This is precisely the sort of mind-games and politicing that goes on
around Jones' (Franklin, not Jim) little mandala of worshippers. You
were involved with these people for two years and thought nothing wrong
with them telling you when it is and is not "appropriate" for you to
send a little letter to the Big Guy. The so-called "mature"
practitioners are merely those who have been more heavily socialized
(conditioned) into the accepted norms of the community, the purpose of
which is to insulate Jones from any contaminating contact with the
outside world (or "unprepared" devotees).

>
> [snipped for brevity]


Petros

unread,
May 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/21/99
to
Randy wrote:
>
> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been said
> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
> spiritual effort". Judi, I don't recall if you ever told me why you left
> the Way of the Heart, but it seemed like it had something to do with not
> wanting to be part of a group (ANY group). Is that correct? But to anyone
> else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
> mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to
> say? Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?

I'm just against "Sri Adi Da" at the moment. I have read just about
everything he's written, and "grokked" it fairly well, even some hard to
find works like _Nirvanasara_ and _Garbage and the Goddess_. I've read
three different editions of the _Knee of Listening_ (and prefer the
first, before DFJ edited out some words of gratitude to his predecessors
like Ramana.) I have met gurus in real life such as Yogi Ramsuratkumar
and several Western teachers such as Lee Lozowick, Andrew Cohen and
Wayne Liquorman (a disciple of Ramesh Balsekar.) I have never met a
Western teacher on the level of the Indian gurus.

I was impressed and inwardly moved by the teaching of DFJ for many
years, but have noticed a disturbing progression in his works over the
years from emphasis on the disciple and on the teaching itself to
emphasis on hero worship of Da himself. Have you (or any current formal
student of Da's) ever done a comparative study of his early writings and
his newer writings? Are formal students even permitted to read the older
material? Have you witnessed this evolution?

I was impressed by Da, but the low level of all of his disciples that
I've met has led me to re-evaluate my judgment. Da is best
conceptualized as a helium-filled balloon. He rather looks like one,
actually. There's a smaller balloon for his head and a larger balloon
for his gut -- very appropriately. He consumes his devotees. Have you
ever watched a video from the Dawn Horse press showing him on his little
island in Fiji? There's this big fat guy surrounded by a bunch of very
skinny, nerdy looking guys prostrating themselves before him. Why is
every one on his island skinny and he is the only fat one?

I am serious.

They come for the promise of Liberation, and get enslavement. He
consumes them.

It is not in Da's interest for any of his devotees to become truly Free
(as he claims to be Free, which he might be.) It is in his interest to
reinforce their dependence upon him.

Ramana did not do this. I have spent time at Ramanashram (even in the
very room that Da stayed in during his visit in 1973, the one
constructed by Annamalai Svami.) Nityananda did not do this.
Ramsuratkumar does not do this.

Muktandanda did enslave his followers; and we see that Da has a very
high opinion of Muktananda even though he never followed M's
instructions and willfully misinterpreted M's letter to him (published
in the Knee.)

What happened to Da Kalki by the way?

> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and

> understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been


> developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm. I've
> tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and
> over again, without fail. But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy? Really
> and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any
> given moment? If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open
> heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.
> Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
> Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
> anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
> or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will be an
> heart-opening experience!

Which is prior, the Teaching or the Teacher?


Senny

unread,
May 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/22/99
to

Petros wrote:

> Senny wrote:
> >
> snip


> > Seven years ago I was a young and new devotee and I was sensitive to,
> > felt and
> > was receiving Adi Da's Spiritual Transmission right from the
> > beginning.
> >
> > After a couple of years I was a part of a 6th stage practise
> > consideration. He
> > and the Kanyas invited responses from around the world from anyone who
> > truly and seriously wanted this Direct relationship to Him and were
> > willing to give up everything for the purpose of God-Realisation and
> > enter into the 6th stage practise. He invited the confessions of
> > devotees directly to Him. The 'mature' practitioners of the community
> > (about 8 practitioners) in Melbourne Australia had a consideration
> > with me about this. All of them said it was ridiculous that I send
> > through my confession and intention. That I had only been around a few
> > years and that it would be offensive to Him to send it across. All
> > refused to support my direct communication with Him.
>

> This is precisely the sort of mind-games and politicing that goes on
> around Jones' (Franklin, not Jim) little mandala of worshippers. You
> were involved with these people for two years and thought nothing wrong
> with them telling you when it is and is not "appropriate" for you to
> send a little letter to the Big Guy. The so-called "mature"
> practitioners are merely those who have been more heavily socialized
> (conditioned) into the accepted norms of the community, the purpose of
> which is to insulate Jones from any contaminating contact with the
> outside world (or "unprepared" devotees).
>
> >
> > [snipped for brevity]

Everyone is intitled to their own opinion and so are you


Senny

unread,
May 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/22/99
to
Heart Happy wrote:

I understand completely what you are saying and as always the limits of
language
modifies or distills the actual communication. Let me elaborate...your
conclusive
awakening is similar if not perhaps identical - although I could not use the
same
words. The Force of energy I'm referring to is not bliss-ful as in the many
deep and
absorptive samadhis I felt in meditation during the period immediately prior
to
my event. And while I refer to it as my companion I cannot find any
difference between it and myself. When I first went to Adi Da I was in
absolute despair - suicidal in my feeling is the only way I could accurately
describe it - I had read hundreds of books,
exhausted every meditation practise find , every new age practitioner
process I could participate in, every religion I could get involved with,
every drug I could induce, every sexual experience I could have and
spiritual guru I could find. My search was at it's end. It was then that a
friend gave me a copy of the Dawn Horse Testament which i read from cover to
cover and I understood. I knew what my whole life was about. I knew that I
was a loveless, desperate seeker. And at that very point a complete
revolution in my consciousness occurred. And I similarly dried my eyes and
got up. At that time this current revealed itself for the first time and
never left. At that point there was a me
constantly, perpetually communing with this current. Sometimes forgetting
sometimes
to do it here and there. On what I refer to as my death event, I died or
dissolves in that
current or Force. I became that Force. When I say it was my experience, I
don't mean it
as a coming and going or changing experience. It is my very condition. It
never changes.
Nothing has ever changed from that moment on. From that moment I realised
that there is no Go. That God was simply a name given to this condition, and
I was that. I knew that I had never been born, or had parents or brothers or
friends. They were simply me. There is no heart desire any more. No
yearning. Nothing to find. Nothing to lose.

Senen

Bruce Morgen

unread,
May 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/22/99
to

On Fri, 21 May 1999 19:43:45 GMT Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com> writes:
>In article <374583af...@news.pond.com>,

>> >This is a f-f-fascinating p-p-phenomenon (a lisp ala Daffy Duck ).
>> >
>> Yes, and an astonishingly
>> and persistently recurrent
>> one, century after century
>> after century.
>>
>> >I have great reverence for Osho. His work to me seems genuinely
>> >inspired. Yet his followers caused havoc.
>> >

>> Christopher Calder's website


>> is very informative about
>> Osho -- an interesting,
>> complex man and, as you
>> state, "genuinely inspired."
>>
>> >I have great reverence for Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Yet his
>followers
>> >seem to border on elitism, superiority, and the usual intolerance
>for
>> >those with a different approach.
>> >
>> Yes, and "MMY" is still
>> alive as the decay in the
>> TM estabishment proceeds
>> apace.
>
>you've got it right.
>

The symptoms aren't hard
to spot.

>> >I have great reverence for Jesus, however the havoc caused by his
>> >followers is unparalleled in human history. ( a favorite book 'The
>Dark
>> >Side of Christian History' )
>> >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964487349/qid%
>3D927298979/002-
>> >8137239-2716055
>> >
>> Yup, quite amazing, and
>> the betrayal of Jesus'
>> life and work began with
>> Paul -- Christianity
>> really ought to be called
>> Paulianism, a religion
>> Jesus would have regarded
>> with befuddlement I'm
>> sure.
>
>Paul was faced with a most difficult task, no, make that an
>impossible
>task! Glad I wasn't in that seat. What a great sacrifice to even
>attempt such a task. ( I profess to have not studied Paul very much )
>

There's a wonderful new
biography -- the guy was
extraordinary, but it
was quite clear his zeal
and determination far
exceeded his
understanding of Jesus'
life and work -- of
course I'm referring to
the Jesus who speaks in
The Gospel Of Thomas
rather than the various
Jesi depicted in the
canonical NT.

>Elaine Pagel's discusses writings from the early fathers of the
>Church.
>These leaders demanded faith without reason (Bhakti sans discernment)
>perhaps because they were somehow threatened by questions or
>certainly they seemed most interested in advancing their authority.
>

One has to remember the
Pharisaic context of
debate and discussion --
these "early fathers"
were not "learned in the
law" and skilled in
rhetoric like Jesus, who
was reputed to be a
formidable scholar and
rhetorician. Declining
dialogue was probably a
purely practical
measure.

>I think Bhakti ( devotion / transcendance through expansive feeling )
>is just as valid as other paths. The question for me is does one have
>the natural propensity of devotion? OR does one have an innate skill
>at being lead to the transcendant by another path such as Discernment

>(Gyana Yoga ). I think finding one's natural gift is the key.
>
Yes, the right approach or
blend of approaches for
the individual incarnation.

>I'm speculating here cause I'm not a Bhakta, but seems to me like
>devotion only becomes ripe when TWOness transforms into ONEness.

That's the culmination of
all paths, not just bhakti.

>That
>is: while there is still the devotee & the object of devotion, there
>is
>separation. To be effective devotion must at somepoint transcend the
>separation. And I don't think everyone has this particular skill of
>transcendance through devotion, others may have the skill at
>transcending through the intellect, the will etc.
>

Yes, well put.

>Christ to me is the most extraordinary example of the potential
>latent
>in the human form.

I'm not sure about the
"most," but the word
"extraordinary" is
certainly warranted.

>But Christianity has turned it around and made him<