The Paradox of Da Free John
Petros
Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
Bruce Morgen
Along similar lines, but
centered on Osho, one
might want to peruse the
following site (I agree
with a great deal of what
Christopher says, but
this does not comprise an
outright endorsement):
http://www.clipper.net/~calder/Osho.html
__________________________________________________
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
m(_ _)m
Senny
Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The Paradox of
Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
Doubt and belief are opposite sides of the same coin of mind. Doubt is based on the adolescent tendency of and toward independence through blind denial and non-Realisation. Belief on the otherhand is based on the childish tendency of and toward dependence through blind faith and non-Realisation. Only Realisation or Most Direct Experience or Most Direct Heart-Knowledge transcends the mood or mind-based and therefore fear-based tendencies of both doubt and belief.
No response I can give you, other than this response, is of any Real usefulness to you. All other responses merely reinforce the childish mood of dependence and therefore, at best, only temporarily consoles you, or on the otherhand provides you with more information on which to carry on your mood of doubt and independent rejection or blind denial. Real consideration and Realisation of this argument, or understanding of this argument, is your only Truly and Most Fully Liberating alternative.
Neither the child nor the adolescent Realises anything that can be called Spiritual, Transcendental or Divine. Both characters must grow and mature beyond their inherently limited points of view and limited self-understanding. Only then is Entrance into the Field that Exists beyond, and prior to those points of view, possible. This is Realised progressively by Grace in the Company and through feeling-Contemplation of a Real and True Spiritual Master (or Tangible Spiritual Force Transmitter) or the Sat Guru.
What Attracted and continues to Attract me to
the Person of Avatar Adi Da Samraj
is His Capacity To Transmit Real, Tangible and
Un-deniable Spirit-Force, which is characteristically felt as a descending
Force crashing down through the crown and into the entire body mind. This
is what ocurred the first time I picked up a book 7 years ago and It has
occurred ever since. This is the True and Real Import of the Appearance
of Adi Da Samraj. Everything else that you see, judge, have problems and
conflict with have everything to do with YOU. Anyone that persists in the
Real practise of feeling-contemplation of His bodily human Form, His Spiritual
Presence and His State will Realise that which is the Mystery and Paradox
of Adi Da Samraj. There rest is mind. The rest is fear. And mind and fear
have every manner and means to justify, deny, criticise, defend and refuse
all that is prior to or Beyond mind. However what is most revealing about
this act is the confusion of the seeker and the need to get one's
head around It. But
that which is beyond the head is not understood *by* the head. It is threatening
to the head. But the head must be 'cut off' by It.
Consider it now. Truly where is the locus of your attention - right now?
Is it really in the heart? Or is it centered behind the eyes, between the ears, above and behind the nose. For one who is looking for proof or is defending, justifying, denying. criticising, or refusing the communications of Avatar Adi Da Samraj, one thing is for certain, attention is not resolved in its source. It is *not* in the heart.
May you Realise that which Is - beyond doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind.
Much Love to all and All -- Senen
Bruce Morgen
>
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>> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The Paradox of
>> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
>> >
>> >
>> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
>> >
>> Along similar lines, but
>> centered on Osho, one
>> might want to peruse the
>> following site (I agree
>> with a great deal of what
>> Christopher says, but
>> this does not comprise an
>> outright endorsement):
>
>Just in case you missed by colourful response My Friend,
>
>Love Senen
>True and Real Import of the Appearance of Adi Da Samraj. It is about
>Reception of this Transmission. And Realising the Condition of that
>Transmission. Everything else that you see, judge, have problems and conflict
>with, have everything to do with YOU.
>
>Anyone that persists in the Real practise of feeling-contemplation of His
>bodily human Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State will Realise that
>which is the Mystery and Paradox of Adi Da Samraj. There rest is mind. The
>rest is fear. And mind and fear have every manner and means to justify, deny,
>criticise, defend and refuse all that is prior to or Beyond mind. However
>what is most revealing about this act is the confusion of the seeker and the
>need to get one's head around It. But that which is beyond the head is not
>understood *by* the head. It is threatening to the head. But the head must be
>'cut off' by It.
>
>Consider it now. Truly where is the locus of your attention - right now?
>
>Is it really in the heart? Or is it centered behind the eyes, between the
>ears, above and behind the nose. For one who is looking for proof or is
>defending, justifying, denying. criticising, or refusing the communications
>of Avatar Adi Da Samraj, one thing is for certain, attention is not resolved
>in its source. It is *not* in the heart.
>
>May you Realise that which Is - beyond doubting, believing, defending,
>justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is
>head or mind.
>
>Much Love to all and All -- Senen
>
So much Capitalized Cult-Speak
in reaction to two simple
website links! From the
heart, allow me to distill
Senen's copious verbiage to
its essence. I testify
that thought is the tool of
distillation and not the
distiller.
[Distillation] If you do not
wholeheartedly embrace my
guru and dare to express any
interest in him as a mere
human being (albeit a radiant
communicator) rather than
immediately becoming Wholly
Infatuated and Totally
Dependent on him, you are
obviously not of The Heart,
but rather lost in the
loveless activity of the
"doubting, believing,
defending, justifying,
affirming, criticising,
analysing, thinking," and
ultimately fearful "head or
mind." [distillation ends]
Senen's position of course
comes not of something as
mundane as "belief," but
rather of the Generously
Capitalized Grace that can
come Only through Bhakti to
the One and Only Fully God-
Identified Being in All of
Human History -- Adi Da
Samraj. Senen is obviously
an effusively happy camper,
and I harbor no intention
or hope of disrupting such
a joyful state. The circus
is in town, and with the
circus come the clowns, on
whose greasepainted faces
the smile never falters.
Much love -- Bruce
Roger Isaacs
> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The
Paradox of
> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
> >
> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
> >
> Along similar lines, but
> centered on Osho, one
> might want to peruse the
> following site (I agree
> with a great deal of what
> Christopher says, but
> this does not comprise an
> outright endorsement):
Edward Tarabilda comments on Da Free John as well as others at
http://www.dimensional.com/~risaacs/k_cohen2.htm , the root page for
this site is www.newu.org
A partial quote from the essay: "Sin is that which binds one to the
petty self and, thus, an enlightened cannot sin in the sense that an
ignorant person can, but his actions can have undesirable consequences
for the public at large; they can cause shock and scandal and, in these
ways, be deemed immoral. This is the exact case with Da Free John, who
has a weak Sun governing his moral and ethical nature, but arguably, a
highly evolved spiritual nature. It is alleged that he is very reckless
in his social behavior and he can, at times, cause innumerable damage
to others in the name of helping them spiritually, even though it is
possible that he does not incur a stain on his own spiritual nature
thereby.
Put in a different way we can say that an enlightened being with a weak
moral and ethical nature does not use skill in action in how he engages
in moral and ethical activity much to the detriment of those around
him. It is not that different from an enlightened person who has weak
verbal skills, or poor physical or mental health and suffers the
consequences therefrom.
Put in still a different way, we can say that an enlightened person
always acts out of a sense of selfless service and giving to others,
but if his moral and ethical nature is weak, then the service is not
very effective, or it often fails to hit the mark, or it has bad and
unforeseen consequences along with the good consequences." ...
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Heart Happy
>
> Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
Senen is obviously
> an effusively happy camper,
> and I harbor no intention
> or hope of disrupting such
> a joyful state. The circus
> is in town, and with the
> circus come the clowns, on
> whose greasepainted faces
> the smile never falters.
>
*********
Great body slam Bruce!
That should just about do it!!! :-)
Judi
Bruce Morgen
I wouldn't for a moment
assume "unforeseen
consequences" in Da's
current activity. He
can't help but know
that he is surrounded
and his livelihood
provided by a circus,
and that circus carries
its own lessons in the
joys and pitfalls of
bhakti sans discernment
and it underlines
Krishnamurti's 1929
assertion of the
limitations of "any
path," "any religion,"
and "any sect."
Do you find yourself in
agreement with Edwardji
regarding the existence
of "a weak moral and
ethical sense" in "an
enlightened being?" Is
"a weak moral and
ethical sense" compatible
with the compassion
intrinsic to realization?
As seen from here a
realizer can certainly
make errors in decision-
making, but this is an
intellectual shortcoming
and not actually a "moral"
or "ethical" deficiency.
Love's impetus is perfect,
thought's service is (to
at least some extent, and
quite unavoidably) flawed.
Randy
Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been said
that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
spiritual effort". Judi, I don't recall if you ever told me why you left
the Way of the Heart, but it seemed like it had something to do with not
wanting to be part of a group (ANY group). Is that correct? But to anyone
else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to
say? Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?
I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been
developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm. I've
tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and
over again, without fail. But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy? Really
and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any
given moment? If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open
heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.
Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will be an
heart-opening experience!
Love to all,
Randy
Petros wrote in message <37434A...@earthlink.net>...
Heart Happy
> > an effusively happy camper,
> > and I harbor no intention
> > or hope of disrupting such
> > a joyful state. The circus
> > is in town, and with the
> > circus come the clowns, on
> > whose greasepainted faces
> > the smile never falters.
> >
>
> Great body slam Bruce!
> That should just about do it!!! :-)
>
> Judi
>
> and the
> doubters in their droves - further confirming the above:
>
> ... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,
> affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head
> more word can be added here - sarcasm!
>
> Wrestlers and Lovers only have one thing in common My Friend - and
> it's not a bodyslam, it's the Gift of being able to get into the Ring
> with all that is not Love
> or all that is lovessness, or asshole-ness, ugliness, anger and fear.
>
> The bell has Rung and Love is holding the World Championship Belt.
> Fortunately
> the bodyslammer was Bodyslammed By Loves Own Unique, Untouchable and
> Effortless, moveless Move!!!
>
> Much Love to you My Friend - The ring is Empty!!!!!
>
> Senen
>
************
And so is your brain!! :-)
Thank God too, cause if you had one, you'd be dangerous! :-)
But all kidding aside, I think you need to spend some serious
time reading his books, cause you're not getting it.
First comes insight and realization, then love and understanding
follow naturally.
Judi
Jai Hari Kaur
"Princess of the Victory of God"
--
Happy Days,
Judi
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada/morea.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/members.html
Allen Crider
Randy wrote:
>
> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been said
> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
> spiritual effort".
It has been said, but is that anywhere near a reliable truth?
A minute with a Buddha is the mystical experience of the radiance of that being.
Or perhaps an exchange of words. Judi got a fine whopper from a short exchange
with the guru, and doesn't require any bhakti-based relationship. So if your got
your minute, why stick around? At some point in the bhakti relationship the law
of diminishing returns comes into force, eh?
Why is there no long line of seekers waiting for their minute with Adi Da to
achieve a lifetime of spiritual effort?
And why doesn't Adi Da approach his work in this fashion? Why did he move to
Fiji and not be of this world anymore?
> But to anyone
> else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
> mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to
> say?
I have studied Adi Da's stuff, know many sincere devotees and have yet to find
anything that wasn't synthesized from traditional, previous material.
Here in internet land, I'm fascinated with breakthrough spiritual thought. Got
anything new from the guru?
> Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?
I am finished with Guru Bhakti. I was totally devoted and Bhakti fulfilled
through gazing at my mother's eyes as a suckling infant. She was the perfect
Guru, the all, the god being. Now, I have moved on other expressions of
devotion.
Adi Da is Adi Da. He has become, among other things, a mean son of a bitch, but
perhaps has regained some of his formerly happy inner self following his recent
visit to the US for glaucoma surgery.
> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
> understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been
> developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm. I've
> tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and
> over again, without fail.
This is what is important to any follower of ANY path. And, sincerely, Bhakti
can be a valid path.
> But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy? Really
> and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any
> given moment?
If one depends on the grace of another human being for one's own happiness, then
perhaps there is some inner work to do.
> If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open
> heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.
I suppose lack of inner happiness can be a reason to seek, but what if I'm
already happy?
> Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
> Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
> anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
> or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will be an
> heart-opening experience!
So here's my quest... I'm looking for any new spiritual thought Adi Da has
created. Westernizing Hindu and Buddhist thought doesn't count. That's old, old stuff.
Allen
jo...@ix.netcom.com
>
> Allen Crider <caps...@sirius.com> wrote:
[snip]
> >Adi Da is Adi Da. He has become, among other things, a mean son of a bitch, but
> >perhaps has regained some of his formerly happy inner self following his recent
> >visit to the US for glaucoma surgery.
> >
> Perhaps he should have added
> some cannibis to his ample
> and famous personal
> pharmacopeia -- it's
> supposed to do wonders for
> glaucoma.
If Adi Da is a regular user of marijuana he's just gone up 50 points in my book!
;)
--jodyr.
Heart Happy
>
> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption?
********** Yes, I met him once, at the Day of the Heart celebration.
It has been said
> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
> spiritual effort".
******** Yes, that's true, and it wasn't until after my own realization
18 years
later that I fully understood this and what his communication was all
about.
Judi, I don't recall if you ever told me why you left
> the Way of the Heart, but it seemed like it had something to do with not
> wanting to be part of a group (ANY group). Is that correct?
*******
Da moved the day after I met him to Hawaii. I had many far out
insightful blissful experiences during my 4 months there at the ashram
in Clear Lake,
and I found myself crying and laughing quite a bit, but I was shunned by
the other devotees and they were not very nice to me. I thought that it
would be a place
of realization and understanding, from reading his books at least, but
it's not.
A bunch of sheep is what you have there. Now perhaps if he would have
been there
with me it might have been a different story, but I left and came back
to
Santa Cruz. I thought they were all pretty stupid actually, they all had
blinders on.
> But to anyone
> else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
> mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to
> say? Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?
>
******* That's neither here nor there, your own self realization is what
matters
and how you get there is really besides the point. The path you use to
get there is simply your separate identity, your life story, a
conglomeration of experiences, and the idea is to be done with it and
allow for something new to come in. I met this guy last week who got
enlightened who spent 27 years in prison for bank robbery and other
assorted dastardly crimes.:-) And he didn't have any guru, all he had
was his
his misery and heart break to work with. Bewilderment and heart break
are really the best teachers. So I would say that if you're all that
happy you're probably no where
near it yet. :-) But enlightenment could strike at any time, but it's
usually not
the case, but there are enjenues(sp) I'm sure. For us *normal* folks it
usually
takes a lot of suffering and beating our heads against the wall and then
some crisis
of some sort or other. Do you guys know Saniel Bonder, who was with Da
for 18 years?
That's what happened to him. He spent 18 years with Da, loving and
having a good time,
but really beating his head against the wall until finally he got fed up
and got serious
and said to himself, it's just not working, and I've got to somehow find
my own way.
And he did just that. He spent a short few months on his own, (under the
threat of
hellish lifetimes to come for leaving his beloved Da), and he found a
mentor to help and guide him and damned if he didn't get himself
enlightened. But he could have just
as easily stayed there with Da, but I doubt seriously that any
transformation that Saniel has since realized would have happened. And
you must understand as with Saniel's
case, he didn't leave because he did not love Da, he loved him dearly
and still does, he left so he could stand on his own. Who knows that Da
did not deliberately make those
threats to Saniel in order to help him? But Saniel will probably never
know, because
he has been ostrasized from the community. Pretty sad I think. All his
beloved friends
for all those years will not even talk to him. But he's met me since, so
he's not
crying too much!!! :-)
Judi
> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
> understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been
> developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm. I've
> tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and
> over again, without fail. But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy? Really
> and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any
> given moment? If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open
> heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.
> Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
> Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
> anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
> or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will be an
> heart-opening experience!
>
> Love to all,
> Randy
> Petros wrote in message <37434A...@earthlink.net>...
> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The Paradox of
> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
> >
> >
> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
> >
--
Heart Happy
>
> >
> > Much Love to you My Friend - The ring is Empty!!!!!
> >
> > Senen
> >
>
> ************
> And so is your brain!! :-) Thank God too, cause if you had
> one, you'd be dangerous! :-)
>
> Thank God you noticed. I did say that the head had to be 'cut off' in
> case you don't remember!
>
********* I happen to like my head very much, it comes in handy when
running
into crackpots such as yourself. Your problem Senen, is that you've got
the Horn of Plenty stuck so far up your ass you got shit for brains. :-)
> And recopied from above - highlights added especially for
> you Judi:
>
****** Aha! Trying to be cute with me huh? Well, I guess you're not
that
dumb, cause you know your ass is in the ringer or you woudldn't be
trying to wiggle
out. :-) Hey Bruce, I got another one!! This one just jumped in the
boat!! :-)
> ... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,
> affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head
> or mind begins.... And one
> > more word can be added here - sarcasm!
>
> But all kidding aside, I think you need to spend some
> serious
> time reading his books, cause you're not getting it.
>
> All kidding aside you are not Getting It - At all - and perhaps
> spending too
> much serious time with your head in your own books!!!!
>
> Reading is for those (of which you have included yourself by
> virtue of this response) who HAVEN'T Got It -- See below:
>
> "What Attracted and continues to Attract me to the Person of Avatar
> Adi Da Samraj
> is His Capacity To Transmit Real, Tangible and Un-deniable
> Spirit-Force, which I
> characteristically felt as a descending Force crashing down through
> the crown and filling the entire body mind. This is what ocurred the
> first time I picked up a book 7 years ago and It has occurred ever
> since. This is my personal, and constant, personal
> EXPERIENCE."
>
****** Forces and experiences come and go, but our love is here to stay.
While you were busy having your experiences I moved my furniture in. :-)
> When you have Gotten This Judi you will never have the need to pick up
> any book
> ever again. It's all over then Judi. If you'er stuck with books and
> you're not Getting It or
> Feeling It Direct (and clearly your not by virtue of your advice) then
> that's your limit - that's why you need and recommend books - your
> prescription however is for you not for me - I am not in need of it.
> It is of no use to me whatsoever!!!
>
> First comes insight and realization, then love and
> understanding
> follow naturally.
>
> That's your story and your going to stick with it. However it's not my
> story.
>
> My personal experience is this:
>
> First Came the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss and then
> Came the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss - Books are
> for the head.
>
> So yes Judi take heed of your own comments - lose your brain - it's in
> the way of
> your heart!!!
******** I will do no such thing of the sort. You're the one that
needs to lose your brain and I suggest you get a new one!!
>
> Books are for the head who has yet has not been awakened to this
> Tangible Force -
> which is above and beyond the head and at the heart - in my
> *experience*!!!
>
******** Oh, I brought all my books with me too. They fit quite nicely
here.
> Love Senen
>
>
>
> Judi
> Jai Hari Kaur
> "Princess of the Victory of God"
>
>
>
Senny
Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The Paradox of
>Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
>
>
>http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
>
Along similar lines, but
centered on Osho, one
might want to peruse the
following site (I agree
with a great deal of what
Christopher says, but
this does not comprise an
outright endorsement):
Just in case you missed by colourful response My Friend,
Love Senen
When the un-Realised being is confronted by someone or something they do not understand, their reaction manifests itself in one of two characteristic forms - either doubt or belief.
Doubt and belief are opposite sides of the same coin of mind. Doubt is based on the adolescent tendency of and toward independence through blind denial and non-Realisation. Belief on the otherhand is based on the childish tendency of and toward dependence through blind faith and non-Realisation. Only Realisation or Most Direct Experience or Most Direct Heart-Knowledge transcends the mood or mind-based and therefore fear-based tendencies of both doubt and belief.
No response I can give you, other than this response, is of any Real usefulness to you. All other responses merely reinforce the childish mood of dependence and therefore, at best, only temporarily consoles you, or on the otherhand provides you with more information on which to carry on your mood of doubt and independent rejection or blind denial. Real consideration and Realisation of this argument, or understanding of this argument, is your only Truly and Most Fully Liberating alternative.
Neither the child nor the adolescent Realises anything that can be called Spiritual, Transcendental or Divine. Both characters must grow and mature beyond their inherently limited points of view and limited self-understanding. Only then is Entrance into the Field that Exists beyond, and prior to those points of view, possible. This is Realised progressively by Grace in the Company and through feeling-Contemplation of a Real and True Spiritual Master (or Tangible Spiritual Force Transmitter) or the Sat Guru.
What Attracted and continues to Attract me to
the Person of Avatar Adi Da Samraj
is His Capacity To Transmit Real, Tangible and
Un-deniable Spirit-Force, which is characteristically felt as a descending
Force crashing down through the crown and into the entire body mind. This
is what ocurred the first time I picked up a book 7 years ago and It has
occurred ever since. This is the True and Real Import of the Appearance
of Adi Da Samraj. It is about Reception of this Transmission. And Realising
the Condition of that Transmission. Everything else that you see, judge,
have problems and conflict with, have everything to do with YOU.
Anyone that persists in the Real practise of feeling-contemplation of His bodily human Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State will Realise that which is the Mystery and Paradox of Adi Da Samraj. There rest is mind. The rest is fear. And mind and fear have every manner and means to justify, deny, criticise, defend and refuse all that is prior to or Beyond mind. However what is most revealing about this act is the confusion of the seeker and the need to get one's head around It. But that which is beyond the head is not understood *by* the head. It is threatening to the head. But the head must be 'cut off' by It.
Consider it now. Truly where is the locus of your attention - right now?
Is it really in the heart? Or is it centered behind the eyes, between the ears, above and behind the nose. For one who is looking for proof or is defending, justifying, denying. criticising, or refusing the communications of Avatar Adi Da Samraj, one thing is for certain, attention is not resolved in its source. It is *not* in the heart.
May you Realise that which Is - beyond doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind.
Much Love to all and All -- Senen
Senny
First note to the blind-doubter and in this case blind-reader... from above...
" This is Realised progressively by Grace in the
Company and through feeling-Contemplation of a Real and True Spiritual
Master (or Tangible
Spiritual Force Transmitter) or the Sat Guru."
- No reference of exclusivity here My Friend.
The (trap being set, the bait is thrown out and
in come the believers and the
doubters in their droves - further confirming
the above:
... And hence the game of doubting, believing,
defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking,
fear or all that is head or mind begins.... And one
more word can be added here - sarcasm!
The important thing to add or note in relation to 'the doubter' is that his doubt truly is blind. The blind and adolescent doubter has not made his statement or confession after spending years in feeling-contemplation of Adi Da Samraj or any other proclaimed God-Realiser whose calling is to Satsang. This is never, ever the case. This is why the language of the doubter is always analytically abstract, or non-personal in nature.
The blind and inherently adolescent blind-doubter of Adi Da Samraj (or any other God-Realised Being whose Calling is to Satsang) NEVER, EVER responds by saying:
"After years and years of feeling-contemplation
of Avatar Adi Da's human bodily
Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State (or
any other God-Realised Being whose Calling is to Satsang) and really and
truly and *exhaustively*
considering this Single and Exclusive practise I conclude that....."
This never
happens. The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO
EXHAUSTIVE EXPERIENCE of what he or she is
referring to. This is why their
language is coloured with tones of criticism,
distant external, or non-participatory
observations and points of view. Their language
never indicates or expresses ANY
SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You
you can follow the posts, the discourses, and the communications of these
individuals everywhere and note that it NEVER changes. They NEVER speak
from the point of view of Realisation or personal experience. They have
everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic
known to man, and yet their trails are littered
with doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising,
analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind - ALWAYS. They
want to be seen as Gurus through this purely intellectually based actvitity,
however they never achieve what the True Guru (any True Guru) Demonstrates.
And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one who can FROM
EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION
can comment or speak about all manner
of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So
they are very agressive (some more
outwardly and others more passively) toward those
who have Realised Something or
those who have thousands of adoring followers
or admirers or devotees or blind zealots. However this is the very thing
they deeply crave themselves. They want attention. They want admiration.
They want to be seen as authories. They crave to be LOVED. But they
are not loved. And they are not lovers. And they have all sorts of problems,
complications and concerns with those that speak about Love or devotion.
If someone animates signs of devotion to them
they have no problem, concern or complications but when it is to someone
other than themselves then suddently it's not o.k and the critical pen
comes out to play. But they never get the devotion they criticise in others
(blind or otherwise). They certainly don't get it to the degree that the
True Guru Gets it. And they are all over the place with their criticism,
even of the thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind
zealots - whatever they are reffered to as; however the key question continually
beckons:
"What the hell has the devotional response (blind
or otherwise) got to do with you???
"Why do you have a reaction to it?
Why are you always talking about it?
And the answer, as is expected comes in the usual tones of criticism, sarcasm justification, distant, external, or non-participatory or non-personal observations and points of view that have nothing to do with them.
The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never speaks from personal experience. He always has some gibbering nonsense to say (and justify) about why he is saying what he is saying. He never gets it! He never gets the fact that it's all about him!
Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick to tell you - No - (as secretly as possible via personal email perhaps - just in case he should lose his self-presumed status as authority from his own blind followers. Yet he is seen continuously commenting on matters that are outside of his experience or direct knowledge. He speaks about Realisation but has Realised nothing himself. He speaks about the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself. He speaks about Reality but has not Realised Reality himself. He speaks about Love but has not Realised Love himself. He speaks about Consciousness but has not Realised Consciousness Himself.
And yet he still has the audacity to criticise cultish believers, when his own demonstration is that of cultish believer. He has Realised nothing but comments on everything. This is what the cultish bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the point of view of others and affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or intellectual or mind based point of view. He is the ultimate jokester. He is the ultimate fool. He is the epitome of self-delusion. But he will never put the word Realisation (God-Realisation or otherwise) beside his own name because then he would have to come up with the Goods. And he can't. He absolutely knows that he can't. He's not up to the Real Gig, so he tries to pull off the would be cult leader's gig. Yet all the while he knows that it's all bullshit. He secretly knows that he's not up to it. He is always in fear of being found out. He simply has no Realisation in relation to what he is always rapping about.
This My Friend Bruce
Morgan is all about you, and your strategy
and your present life-gig, everyone is stuck somewhere in their non-Realisation,
My Friend this is where
YOU are stuck!!!!!
Senen is obviously
an effusively happy camper,
and I harbor no intention
or hope of disrupting such
a joyful state. The circus
is in town, and with the
circus come the clowns, on
whose greasepainted facesthe smile never falters.
And to the Show come the sad, un-happy brain-tight
spectators too afraid and
loveless in their suppressed intellectual states
to enjoy the Party. Having forgotten
that life is about God of God and as God they
come to the circus to be re-Awakened,
re-Inspired, Humorously Mocked, they may Remember
the Magic, the Joy and the un-reasonable Ecstacy that Is God and
Is Life.
My I have Served your much needed critical heart
with Mad Joy, Ecstatic
Pleasure and the memory of a Life empty of the
un-happy and loveless mood
of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,
affirming, criticising, analysing,
thinking, fear - or all that is head
or mind. May your Heart-smile re-appear and
Out-Shine the mirror of minds-i that is the Shade
to Love's own-Felt Embrace!!
Much Love to you My Friend - Know that I still Love you!!!
Senen
Senny
Bruce Morgen wrote:
>
> Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
Senen is obviously
> an effusively happy camper,
> and I harbor no intention
> or hope of disrupting such
> a joyful state. The circus
> is in town, and with the
> circus come the clowns, on
> whose greasepainted faces
> the smile never falters.
>
*********
Great body slam Bruce!
That should just about do it!!! :-)Judi
The (trap being set, the bait is thrown out and in come the believers and the
... And hence the game of doubting, believing,
defending, justifying, affirming, criticising,
analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind begins.... And one
more word can be added here - sarcasm!
Wrestlers and Lovers only have one thing in common
My Friend - and it's not a bodyslam, it's the Gift of being able to get
into the Ring with all that is not Love
or all that is lovessness, or asshole-ness, ugliness, anger and fear.
The bell has Rung and Love is holding the World
Championship Belt. Fortunately
the bodyslammer was Bodyslammed By Loves Own
Unique, Untouchable and
Effortless, moveless Move!!!
Much Love to you My Friend - The ring is Empty!!!!!
Senen
Senny
Roger Isaacs wrote:
edi...@juno.com wrote:
> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The
Paradox of
> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
> >
> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
> >
> Along similar lines, but
> centered on Osho, one
> might want to peruse the
> following site (I agree
> with a great deal of what
> Christopher says, but
> this does not comprise an
> outright endorsement):
Edward Tarabilda comments on Da Free John as well as others at
http://www.dimensional.com/~risaacs/k_cohen2.htm , the root page for
this site is www.newu.orgA partial quote from the essay: "Sin is that which binds one to the
petty self and, thus, an enlightened cannot sin in the sense that an
ignorant person can, but his actions can have undesirable consequences
for the public at large; they can cause shock and scandal and, in these
ways, be deemed immoral. This is the exact case with Da Free John, who
has a weak Sun governing his moral and ethical nature, but arguably, a
highly evolved spiritual nature. It is alleged that he is very reckless
in his social behavior and he can, at times, cause innumerable damage
to others in the name of helping them spiritually, even though it is
possible that he does not incur a stain on his own spiritual nature
thereby. Put in a different way we can say that an enlightened being with a weak
moral and ethical nature does not use skill in action in how he engages
in moral and ethical activity much to the detriment of those around
him. It is not that different from an enlightened person who has weak
verbal skills, or poor physical or mental health and suffers the
consequences therefrom.Put in still a different way, we can say that an enlightened person
always acts out of a sense of selfless service and giving to others,
but if his moral and ethical nature is weak, then the service is not
very effective, or it often fails to hit the mark, or it has bad and
unforeseen consequences along with the good consequences." ...
Yes the weak, timid and naive child who still believes that others and the
world happen to him is always stuck on this point of view. His own lack
of responsibility for his own reaction to anything that is seen or heard is
his scar. But the reaction is his. It is his own self scarring. He does not
and cannot embrace or accept what he sees or hears. He contracts at the heart.
His heart 'stops' and his head 'starts'. He is still cradled in mommies arms
listening to mommy and daddy ideas and beliefs about the world and how it
should and should not be (and his preachers arms - let's not forget him).
He is still wearing the sun-glasses of his mommy-daddy-preacher-mind
and
is
offended by all that is outside his adopted and
inherited lenses of mind. His
constant response to what offends him is blame.
He is unwilling to accept
responsibility for his own reaction or contraction
in the midst of what he
sees or hears. So he is continuosly frustrated
by a world that refuses to be
the way that his mummy-daddy-preacher adopted-inherited
lenses say it
should be. The more he fixes himself within the
boundaries of his lenses the
more life presents itself beyond or outside the
boundaries of his lenses. He does
not Know that he has 'bought' his lenses. He
is to afraid to take them off. He
refuses to trade them in. They are old, tattered,
morn out and scarred by the
continued offensiveness of counter-mummy-daddy-preacher
adopted-inherited
ideas. He needs a trade them in yet he is afraid
to take them off. He wants to
remain in the darkness of his own 'shades' yet
he is offended all the while. He is
afraid of the Shine or Fall of Lights Brightness
upon his naked eyes. Therefore he continues to see everything within the
boundaries of his lenses as God or
good and everything outside the boundaries of
his lenses bad or immoral, unethical
or not-God. And in doing so he is playing at
being God - pretending he Knows
how things should be, yet he cannot Be God. He
cannot Love Perpetually. His *reaction* to what he sees is his act of un-love
or not-God. He continues to see
a world that offends him yet he is unwilling
to upgrade or take off his own lenses.
Again I offer you the following addition to the comment above:
The important thing to add or note in relation to 'the doubter' is that his doubt truly is
blind. The blind and adolescent doubter has not made his statement or confession after
spending years in feeling-contemplation of Adi Da Samraj or any other proclaimed
God-Realiser whose calling is to Satsang. This is never, ever the case. This is why the
language of the doubter is always analytically abstract, or non-personal in nature.
The blind and inherently adolescent blind-doubter of Da Free John or any other
God-Realised Being whose Calling is to Satsang) NEVER, EVER responds by saying:
"After years and years of feeling-contemplation of Avatar Adi Da's human bodily
Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State (or any other God-Realised Being whose
Calling is to Satsang) and really and truly and *exhaustively* considering this Single
and Exclusive practise I conclude that....."This never happens. The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO
EXHAUSTIVE EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to. This is why
their
language is coloured with tones of criticism, distant external, or non-participatory
observations and points of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the discourses, and the communications of these individuals everywhere and note that it
NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the point of view of Realisation or personal experience. They have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind - ALWAYS. They always draw on essays written by someone else or other authorities yet can never comment personally. They want to be seen as Authorities through this purely intellectually based actvitity, however they never achieve what the True Guru (any True Guru) Demonstrates. And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one who can FROM EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So they are very agressive (some more outwardly and others more passively) toward those who have Realised Something or those who have thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind zealots. However this is the very thing they deeply crave themselves. They want to be seen as authories.
The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never speaks from personal experience. He
always has some gibbering nonsense to say (and justify) about why he is saying what he is saying. He never gets it! He never gets the fact that it's all about him!
Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick to tell you - No - Yet he is seen continuously commenting on matters that are outside of his experience or direct knowledge. It is not that he is a Realiser criticising what he sees or hears. He speaks about Realisation but has Realised nothing himself. He speaks about the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself. He speaks about Reality but has not Realised Reality himself. He speaks about Love but has not Realised Love himself. He speaks about Consciousness but has not Realised Consciousness Himself.
And yet he still has the audacity to criticise cultish believers, when his own
demonstration is that of cultish believer. He has Realised nothing but comments on
everything. This is what the cultish bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the point of view of others and affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or intellectual or mind based point of view. He is the ultimate jokester. He is the ultimate fool. He is the epitome of self-delusion. But he will never put the word Realisation (God-Realisation or otherwise) beside his own name because then he would have to come up with the Goods. And he can't. He absolutely knows that he can't. He's not up to the Real Gig, so he tries to pull off the would be cult leader's cult busters gig. Yet all the while he knows that it's all bullshit. He secretly knows that he's not up to it.
He simply has no Realisation in relation to what he is always rapping about.
Much Love to you -- Senen
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Yes, do share what you Know NOT what you OR OTHERS believe or doubt - Touchee!!!
Senny
Randy wrote:
Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been said
that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
spiritual effort". Judi, I don't recall if you ever told me why you left
the Way of the Heart, but it seemed like it had something to do with not
wanting to be part of a group (ANY group). Is that correct? But to anyone
else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to
say? Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?
I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been
developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm. I've
tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and
over again, without fail. But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy? Really
and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any
given moment? If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open
heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.
Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will be an
heart-opening experience!Love to all,
Randy
Touchee Randy. My sentiments exactly. The personal experience of the critics
(as noted in my last few extensive posts) are distinctly absent here!!!
Petros wrote in message <37434A...@earthlink.net>...
Senny
Bruce Morgen wrote:
Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com> wrote:
> edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The
>Paradox of
>> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
>> >
>> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
>> >
I wouldn't for a moment
assume "unforeseen
consequences" in Da's
current activity. He
can't help but know
that he is surrounded
and his livelihood
provided by a circus,
and that circus carries
its own lessons in the
joys and pitfalls of
bhakti sans discernment
and it underlines
Krishnamurti's 1929
assertion of the
limitations of "any
path," "any religion,"
and "any sect."
Do you find yourself in
agreement with Edwardji
regarding the existence
of "a weak moral and
ethical sense" in "an
enlightened being?" Is
"a weak moral and
ethical sense" compatible
with the compassion
intrinsic to realization?As seen from here a
realizer can certainly
make errors in decision-
making, but this is an
intellectual shortcoming
and not actually a "moral"
or "ethical" deficiency.
Love's impetus is perfect,
thought's service is (to
at least some extent, and
quite unavoidably) flawed.
For the one who didn't hear - repetition is the mother of all learning!!
The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has
NO EXHAUSTIVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
of what he or she is referring to. This is why their
language is coloured with tones of criticism,
distant external, or non-participatory
observations and points of view. Their
language never indicates or expresses ANY
SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever.
You you can follow the posts, the
discourses, and the communications of these individuals
everywhere and note that it
NEVER changes. They
NEVER speak from the point of view of Realisation or personal
experience. They
have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic
known to man, and yet their trails are littered
with doubting, believing, defending,
justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing,
thinking, fear or all that is head or mind -
ALWAYS.
Krishnamurti's 1929
assertion of the
limitations of "any
path," "any religion,"
and "any sect."
Do you find yourself in
agreement with Edwardji
regarding the existence
of "a weak moral and
ethical sense" in "an
enlightened being?"
They constantly use the references of others as substitute vocal pieces for their own inexperience or non-Realisation.
And they are unwilling to enter into the process
of one who can FROM EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION
can comment or speak about all manner
of Spiritual and Religious Communication.
The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never
speaks from personal experience. He
always has some gibbering nonsense to say (and
justify) about why he is saying what he
is saying. He never gets it! He never gets the
fact that it's all about him!
Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick
to tell you - No - (as secretly as
possible via personal email perhaps - just in
case he should lose his self-presumed
status as authority from his own blind followers.
Yet he is seen continuously
commenting on matters that are outside of his experience or direct knowledge.
He speaks about
Realisation but has Realised nothing himself.
He speaks about
the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself.
He speaks about
Reality but has not Realised Reality himself.
He speaks about
Love but has not Realised Love himself.
He speaks about
Consciousness but has not Realised Consciousness Himself.
He has Realised nothing but comments on everything. This is what the cultish bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the point of view of others and affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or intellectual or mind based point of view. He is the ultimate jokester. He is the ultimate fool. He is the epitome of self-delusion.
Much Love again My Friend,
Senen
Bruce Morgen
taken! Substitute any
moniker you please for
the reference to Adi Da
Samraj.
>The (trap being set, the bait is thrown out and in come the believers and the
>doubters in their droves - further confirming the above:
>
>... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming,
>criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind begins.... And
>one more word can be added here - sarcasm!
>
Just "fun" in another
jacket, Senen.
>The important thing to add or note in relation to 'the doubter' is that his doubt
>truly is blind. The blind and adolescent doubter has not made his statement or
>confession after spending years in feeling-contemplation of Adi Da Samraj or any
>other proclaimed God-Realiser whose calling is to Satsang. This is never, ever the
>case. This is why the language of the doubter is always analytically abstract, or
>non-personal in nature.
>
No doubt whatsoever was
expressed, just observing
devotee activity.
>The blind and inherently adolescent blind-doubter of Adi Da Samraj (or any other
>God-Realised Being whose Calling is to Satsang) NEVER, EVER responds by saying:
>
>"After years and years of feeling-contemplation of Avatar Adi Da's human bodily
>Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State (or any other God-Realised Being whose
>Calling is to Satsang) and really and truly and *exhaustively* considering this
>Single and Exclusive practise I conclude that....."
>
No conclusions were made
or expressed.
>This never happens. The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO EXHAUSTIVE
>EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to. This is why their
>language is coloured with tones of criticism, distant external, or
>non-participatory
>observations and points of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY
>SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the
>discourses, and the communications of these individuals everywhere and note that
>it NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the point of view of Realisation or
>personal experience.
Absolute ASS-umptive
bovine excrement -- I
suspect this is from
Adidam equivalent of the
conduct pamphlets
memorized by Mormon
and JW door-to-door
missionaries.
>They have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic
>known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing,
>defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all
>that is head or mind - ALWAYS. They want to be seen as Gurus through this purely
>intellectually based actvitity, however they never achieve what the True Guru (any
>True Guru) Demonstrates. And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one
>who can FROM
>EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner
>of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So they are very agressive (some more
>outwardly and others more passively) toward those who have Realised Something or
>those who have thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind
>zealots. However this is the very thing they deeply crave themselves. They want
>attention. They want admiration. They want to be seen as authories. They crave to
>be LOVED. But they are not loved. And they are not lovers. And they have all
>sorts of problems, complications and concerns with those that speak about Love or
>devotion.
Actually, no "problems,
complications," or
"concerns" at all -- like
the vast bulk of your
presentation, this is all
ASS-ump-tive guesswork
posing as compassionate
insight.
>If someone animates signs of devotion to them they have no problem, concern or
>complications but when it is to someone other than themselves then suddently it's
>not o.k and the critical pen comes out to play. But they never get the devotion
>they criticise in others (blind or otherwise). They certainly don't get it to the
>degree that the True Guru Gets it.
Or so the True Devotee
continually ASS-umes.
>And they are all over the place with their
>criticism, even of the thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or
>blind zealots - whatever they are reffered to as; however the key question
>continually beckons:
>
>"What the hell has the devotional response (blind or otherwise) got to do with
>you???
>"Why do you have a reaction to it?
I simply observe and
comment. Feel free to
continue to guess at my
motive(s), I feel quite
sure you can do much
better than you have so
far.
>Why are you always talking about it?
>
I only talk about clowns
when a circus is in
town. There's the
Bailey's Creme 'treya
Circus, the Michael
Martin Orthodox Sant
Mat Circus, The Fourth
Way Circus, The Jan Cox
Circus, and now the
Adidam Circus -- all
replete with amusements
most worthy of attention!
>And the answer, as is expected comes in the usual tones of criticism, sarcasm
>justification, distant, external, or non-participatory or non-personal
>observations and points of view that have nothing to do with them.
>
>The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never speaks from personal experience. He
>always has some gibbering nonsense to say (and justify) about why he is saying
>what he is saying. He never gets it! He never gets the fact that it's all about
>him!
>
>Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick to tell you - No - (as secretly
>as possible via personal email perhaps - just in case he should lose his
>self-presumed status as authority from his own blind followers.
What "followers?" As for
"Realiser" status, I
neither claim nor deny it,
let others so inclined
deploy labels as they see
fit.
>Yet he is seen
>continuously commenting on matters that are outside of his experience or direct
>knowledge. He speaks about Realisation but has Realised nothing himself. He speaks
>about the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself. He speaks about Reality
>but has not Realised Reality himself. He speaks about Love but has not Realised
>Love himself. He speaks about Consciousness but has not Realised Consciousness
>Himself.
>
Opinion (be-LIE-f) noted.
>And yet he still has the audacity to criticise cultish believers, when his own
>demonstration is that of cultish believer. He has Realised nothing but comments on
>everything. This is what the cultish bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the
>point of view of others and affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or
>intellectual or mind based point of view. He is the ultimate jokester. He is the
>ultimate fool. He is the epitome of self-delusion. But he will never put the word
>Realisation (God-Realisation or otherwise) beside his own name because then he
>would have to come up with the Goods. And he can't. He absolutely knows that he
>can't. He's not up to the Real Gig, so he tries to pull off the would be cult
>leader's gig. Yet all the while he knows that it's all bullshit. He secretly knows
>that he's not up to it. He is always in fear of being found out. He simply has no
>Realisation in relation to what he is always rapping about.
>
"He" knows what the "Real
Gig" is and does not need it
defined by others. thank you
very much for the gratuitous
analysis and instruction.
>This My Friend Bruce Morgan is all about you, and your strategy and your present
>life-gig, everyone is stuck somewhere in their non-Realisation, My Friend this is
>where YOU are stuck!!!!!
>
I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
this with all your heart.
>> Senen is obviously
>> an effusively happy camper,
>> and I harbor no intention
>> or hope of disrupting such
>> a joyful state. The circus
>> is in town, and with the
>> circus come the clowns, on
>
>> whose greasepainted faces
>>
>>> the smile never falters.
>>
>And to the Show come the sad, un-happy brain-tight spectators too afraid and
>loveless in their suppressed intellectual states to enjoy the Party.
On the contrary, the Party
is delightful, a glorious
amusement -- why would one
be "sad, unhappy," or
brain-tight" in the company
of such a dedicated clown?
>Having forgotten
>that life is about God of God and as God they come to the circus to be
>re-Awakened,
>re-Inspired, Humorously Mocked, they may Remember the Magic, the Joy and the
>un-reasonable Ecstacy that Is God and Is Life.
>
>My I have Served your much needed critical heart with Mad Joy, Ecstatic
>Pleasure and the memory of a Life empty of the un-happy and loveless mood
>of doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing,
>thinking, fear - or all that is head or mind. May your Heart-smile re-appear and
>Out-Shine the mirror of minds-i that is the Shade to Love's own-Felt Embrace!!
>
May your insight some day
approach in its prominence
your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
guesswork, and incredibly
repetitive verbosity. I
look forward to a time when
we can exchange views with
some degree of brevity and
conciseness on your part.
>
>Much Love to you My Friend - Know that I still Love you!!!
>
Thanks, right back atcha!
Senny
> Bruce Morgen wrote:
> >
> > Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
>
> Senen is obviously
> > an effusively happy camper,
> > and I harbor no intention
> > or hope of disrupting such
> > a joyful state. The circus
> > is in town, and with the
> > circus come the clowns, on
> > whose greasepainted faces
> > the smile never falters.
> >
>
> *********
> Great body slam Bruce!
> That should just about do it!!! :-)
>
> Judi
>
> The (trap being set, the bait is thrown out and in come the believers
> and the
> doubters in their droves - further confirming the above:
>
> ... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,
> affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head
> or mind begins.... And one
> more word can be added here - sarcasm!
>
> Wrestlers and Lovers only have one thing in common My Friend - and
> it's not a bodyslam, it's the Gift of being able to get into the Ring
> with all that is not Love or all that is lovessness, or asshole-ness, ugliness, anger and fear.
>
> The bell has Rung and Love is holding the World Championship Belt.
> Fortunately
> the bodyslammer was Bodyslammed By Loves Own Unique, Untouchable and
> Effortless, moveless Move!!!
>
> Much Love to you My Friend - The ring is Empty!!!!!
>
> Senen
>
************
And so is your brain!! :-) Thank God too, cause if you had one, you'd be dangerous! :-)
And recopied from above - highlights added especially for you Judi:... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind begins.... And one
But all kidding aside, I think you need to spend some serious
time reading his books, cause you're not getting it.
much serious time with your head in your own books!!!!
Reading is for those
(of which you have included yourself by
virtue of this response) who HAVEN'T Got It --
See below:
"What Attracted and continues to Attract me to
the Person of Avatar Adi Da Samraj
is His Capacity To Transmit Real,
Tangible and
Un-deniable Spirit-Force,
which I
characteristically felt as a descending Force
crashing down through the crown and filling the entire body mind. This
is what ocurred the first time I picked up a book 7 years ago and It has
occurred ever since. This is my personal,
and constant, personal
EXPERIENCE."
When you have Gotten This Judi you
will never have the need to pick up any
book
ever again. It's all over then Judi. If you'er
stuck with books and you're not Getting It
or
Feeling It Direct (and clearly your not by virtue
of your advice) then that's your
limit - that's why you need and recommend books - your prescription however
is for you not for me - I am not in need of it. It is of no use to me whatsoever!!!
First comes insight and realization, then love and understandingThat's your story and your going to stick with it. However it's not my story.
follow naturally.
My personal experience is this:
First Came the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss and then Came the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss - Books are for the head.
So yes Judi take heed of your own comments - lose
your brain -
it's in the way of
your heart!!!
Books are for the head
who has yet has not been awakened to this Tangible
Force -
which is above and beyond the head and at the
heart - in my *experience*!!!
Love Senen
Senny
Great Brevity follows my friend:
...and yet their trails are littered with doubting,
believing, defending,
justifying, affirming, criticising,
analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind -
ALWAYS.
The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has
NO EXHAUSTIVE PERSONAL
EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to. This is why their language is coloured with tones of criticism, distant external, or non-participatory observations and points of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the discourses, and the communications of these individuals everywhere and note that it NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the point of view of Realisation or personal experience.
>They have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic
>known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing,
>defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all
>that is head or mind - ALWAYS. They want to be seen as Gurus through this purely
>intellectually based actvitity, however they never achieve what the True Guru (any
>True Guru) Demonstrates. And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one
>who can FROM
>EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner
>of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So they are very agressive (some more
>outwardly and others more passively) toward those who have Realised Something or
>those who have thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind
>zealots. However this is the very thing they deeply crave themselves. They want
>attention. They want admiration. They want to be seen as authories. They crave to
>be LOVED. But they are not loved. And they are not lovers. And they have all
>sorts of problems, complications and concerns with those that speak about Love or
>devotion.Actually, no "problems,
complications," or
"concerns" at all -- like
the vast bulk of your
presentation, this is all
ASS-ump-tive guesswork
posing as compassionate
insight.
...and yet their trails are littered with doubting,
believing, defending,
justifying,
affirming, criticising,
analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind -
ALWAYS.
>If someone animates signs of devotion to them they have no problem, concern or
>complications but when it is to someone other than themselves then suddently it's
>not o.k and the critical pen comes out to play. But they never get the devotion
>they criticise in others (blind or otherwise). They certainly don't get it to the
>degree that the True Guru Gets it.Or so the True Devotee
continually ASS-umes.>And they are all over the place with their
>criticism, even of the thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or
>blind zealots - whatever they are reffered to as; however the key question
>continually beckons:
>
>"What the hell has the devotional response (blind or otherwise) got to do with
>you???
>"Why do you have a reaction to it?I simply observe and
comment.
The blind and inherently adolescent doubter
has NO EXHAUSTIVE PERSONAL
EXPERIENCE of what
he or she is referring to. This is why their language is coloured with
tones of criticism,
distant external, or non-participatory observations
and points of view. Their language never indicates
or expresses ANY SIGNS of personal experience.
None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the discourses, and the communications
of these individuals everywhere and note that it NEVER changes. They NEVER
speak from the point of view of Realisation or personal
experience.
Feel free to
it???
Quote: "Realiser - No" - Now everyone knows Brucey.
Avatar Bruce Morgen Ananda?
Give me a break!!!
Bruce who are you trying to kid by neither affirming
or denying? That's the oldest
trick in the book. Do you honestly expect me
and others to believe that you are Realised???
Repeated for the sake of the author:
...and yet their trails are littered with doubting,
believing, defending,
justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing,
thinking, fear or all that is head or mind -
and sarcasm!
>This My Friend Bruce Morgan is all about you, and your strategy and your present
>life-gig, everyone is stuck somewhere in their non-Realisation, My Friend this is
>where YOU are stuck!!!!!
>
I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
this with all your heart.
>> Senen is obviously
>> an effusively happy camper,
>> and I harbor no intention
>> or hope of disrupting such
>> a joyful state. The circus
>> is in town, and with the
>> circus come the clowns, on
>
>> whose greasepainted faces
>>
>>> the smile never falters.
>>
>And to the Show come the sad, un-happy brain-tight spectators too afraid and
>loveless in their suppressed intellectual states to enjoy the Party.On the contrary, the Party
is delightful, a glorious
amusement -- why would one
be "sad, unhappy," or
brain-tight" in the company
of such a dedicated clown?
The name Bruce Morgen is not mentioned here or did you - ASS-ume???
>Having forgotten
>that life is about God of God and as God they come to the circus to be
>re-Awakened,
>re-Inspired, Humorously Mocked, they may Remember the Magic, the Joy and the
>un-reasonable Ecstacy that Is God and Is Life.
>
>My I have Served your much needed critical heart with Mad Joy, Ecstatic
>Pleasure and the memory of a Life empty of the un-happy and loveless mood
>of doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing,
>thinking, fear - or all that is head or mind. May your Heart-smile re-appear and
>Out-Shine the mirror of minds-i that is the Shade to Love's own-Felt Embrace!!
>
May your insight some day
approach in its prominence
your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
guesswork, and incredibly
repetitive verbosity. I
look forward to a time when
we can exchange views with
some degree of brevity and
conciseness on your part.
I look forward to a time you can share your personal
experience instead of
substituting external references for your own un-Realised understanding.
>>Much Love to you My Friend - Know that I still Love you!!!
>
Thanks, right back atcha!
You're welcome Friend!
Love Senen
Senny
[snipped for brevity]
>They have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic
>known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing,
>defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all
>that is head or mind - ALWAYS. They want to be seen as Gurus through this purely
>intellectually based actvitity, however they never achieve what the True Guru (any
>True Guru) Demonstrates. And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one
>who can FROM EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So they are very agressive (some more outwardly and others more passively) toward those who have Realised Something or those who have thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind >zealots. However this is the very thing they deeply crave themselves. They want attention. They want admiration. They want to be seen as authories. They crave to be LOVED. But they are not loved. And they are not lovers. And they have all sorts of problems, complications and concerns with those that speak about Love or devotion.Actually, no "problems,
complications," or
"concerns" at all -- like
the vast bulk of your
presentation, this is all
ASS-ump-tive guesswork
posing as compassionate
insight.
elses point of view is (according to Bruce) "ASS-ump-tive guesswork".
However when Bruces does the very same thing his attempts to camouflage his own comments which could equally be referred to (to use his own language "ASS-ump-tive guesswork") however what does Brucey prefers to call that?
Quote: "I simply observe and comment"
Translation: I'm ok. Bruce is great. Everyone else is stuffed.
Wake up and smell the roses my Friend!!!!!!
See below for Bruce Morgen Glossary of Hypocracy:1. Or so the True Devotee
continually ASS-umes.2. I simply observe and
comment. Feel free to
continue to guess at my
motive(s), I feel quite
sure you can do much
better than you have so
far.
3. Opinion (be-LIE-f) noted.4. "He" knows what the "Real
Gig" is and does not need it
defined by others. thank you
very much for the gratuitous
analysis and instruction.
5. I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
this with all your heart.
6. May your insight some day
approach in its prominence
your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
guesswork, and incredibly
repetitive verbosity.
>PS: By the way the absence of your personal experience and confession in
Thanks, right back atcha! - You bet it is!Love Senen
>
all your communications is not "ASS-ump-tive guesswork". It is the case.
If you would like to dig up the archive of ALL our communications with me
you will see that this is absolutely true.
I welcome your demonstration me otherwise!!!
The bell is ringing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Roger Isaacs
edi...@juno.com wrote:
> Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com> wrote:
>
> > edi...@juno.com wrote:
> >> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Paradox of
> >> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
> >> >
> >> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
> >> >
> >> Along similar lines, but
> >> centered on Osho, one
> >> might want to peruse the
> >> following site (I agree
> >> with a great deal of what
> >> Christopher says, but
> >> this does not comprise an
> >> outright endorsement):
> >
Despite his best efforts even Krishnamurti's
organization also seems pervaded by followers
"sans discernment".
> Do you find yourself in
> agreement with Edwardji
> regarding the existence
> of "a weak moral and
> ethical sense" in "an
> enlightened being?"
Actually I have little experience with Adi Da. What little
I've read by him strikes me as insightful & inspiring.
> Is
> "a weak moral and
> ethical sense" compatible
> with the compassion
> intrinsic to realization?
Is there any absolute measure of morality? Due to the
vast diversity in creation what is "good" seems to differ
according to individual perspective. "Ethical & Moral Sense"
seems partly like the skill of coordinating amidst difference and awareness
of cultural and other propriety. I'm not endorsing immoral behavior.
Just thinking that some people may not have as much gift
at coordination: even with the best of intentions our action
will never please everyone.
> As seen from here a
> realizer can certainly
> make errors in decision-
> making, but this is an
> intellectual shortcoming
> and not actually a "moral"
> or "ethical" deficiency.
> Love's impetus is perfect,
> thought's service is (to
> at least some extent, and
> quite unavoidably) flawed.
The impetus behind love
maybe perfect. Perhaps
the impetus _behind_ thought
is perfect as well. However,
this perfection when expressed
through an always limited mind/body
vehicle takes the coloring of that
imperfect vehicle.
Perhaps the imperfections of Saints
are a great blessing. I recall Jesus
quoted as saying something like "why do you
call me good, there is none good
but the Father". These very imperfections
suggest to us that we should look within
for the source of Spirit. Gurus can only
point to the door, the door is within us
and it's up to us to walk through it.
Roger
www.newu.org
Bruce Morgen
make feces into honey, Senen,
it just demonstrates that you
can copy & paste with the best
of them.
simply demonstrates the
accuracy of my statement.
>>
>> >If someone animates signs of devotion to them they have no problem, concern or
>> >complications but when it is to someone other than themselves then suddently it's
>> >not o.k and the critical pen comes out to play. But they never get the devotion
>> >they criticise in others (blind or otherwise). They certainly don't get it to the
>> >degree that the True Guru Gets it.
>>
>> Or so the True Devotee
>> continually ASS-umes.
>>
>> >And they are all over the place with their
>> >criticism, even of the thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or
>> >blind zealots - whatever they are reffered to as; however the key question
>> >continually beckons:
>> >
>> >"What the hell has the devotional response (blind or otherwise) got to do with
>> >you???
>> >"Why do you have a reaction to it?
>>
>> I simply observe and
>> comment.
>
>The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO EXHAUSTIVE PERSONAL
>EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to.
So what -- does it take
shouted-out "EXHAUSTIVE
PERSONAL EXPERIENCE" to
see the self-evident?
>This is why their language is coloured
>with tones of criticism, distant external, or non-participatory observations and points
>of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY SIGNS of personal experience.
>None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the discourses, and the communications of
>these individuals everywhere and note that it NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the
>point of view of Realisation or personal experience.
>
Such is your be-LIE-f and
it is so noted. From a
pamphlet or perhaps
paraphrased from one...
I denied nothing.
>Quote: "Realiser - No" - Now everyone knows Brucey.
>
Senen, you are not only a
Da-programmed robot, you've
got reading problems -- the
phrase "Realiser - No" is
*yours*. As a nominal Yank
I wouldn't use that spelling
unless I was quoting
someone else. I keep copies
of all my outgoing mail, it
helps keep wishful thinkers
honest with themselves.
>Avatar Bruce Morgen Ananda?
>
At your service, by whatever
name you choose! :-)
>Give me a break!!!
>
Is there anything in
particular in need of
breaking? I wouldn't
dream of deciding on
your behalf!
>Bruce who are you trying to kid by neither affirming or denying?
Nobody.
>That's the oldest
>trick in the book.
I wouldn't know about
any precedents, but no
doubt they exist.
>Do you honestly expect me and others to believe that you are
>Realised???
>
Of course not, I have
no expectation whatsoever.
Puh-leeze spare all our readers
your robotic repetition, it is
entirely and consistenty
irrelevant to what it purports
to respond to.
>>
>> >This My Friend Bruce Morgan is all about you, and your strategy and your present
>> >life-gig, everyone is stuck somewhere in their non-Realisation, My Friend this is
>> >where YOU are stuck!!!!!
>> >
>> I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
>> this with all your heart.
>
>>
>> >> Senen is obviously
>> >> an effusively happy camper,
>> >> and I harbor no intention
>> >> or hope of disrupting such
>> >> a joyful state. The circus
>> >> is in town, and with the
>> >> circus come the clowns, on
>> >
>> >> whose greasepainted faces
>> >>
>> >>> the smile never falters.
>> >>
>> >And to the Show come the sad, un-happy brain-tight spectators too afraid and
>> >loveless in their suppressed intellectual states to enjoy the Party.
>>
>> On the contrary, the Party
>> is delightful, a glorious
>> amusement -- why would one
>> be "sad, unhappy," or
>> brain-tight" in the company
>> of such a dedicated clown?
>
>The name Bruce Morgen is not mentioned here or did you - ASS-ume???
>
Nonetheless, that is my
confession, are we playing
word games?
>> >Having forgotten
>> >that life is about God of God and as God they come to the circus to be
>> >re-Awakened,
>> >re-Inspired, Humorously Mocked, they may Remember the Magic, the Joy and the
>> >un-reasonable Ecstacy that Is God and Is Life.
>> >
>> >My I have Served your much needed critical heart with Mad Joy, Ecstatic
>> >Pleasure and the memory of a Life empty of the un-happy and loveless mood
>> >of doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing,
>> >thinking, fear - or all that is head or mind. May your Heart-smile re-appear and
>> >Out-Shine the mirror of minds-i that is the Shade to Love's own-Felt Embrace!!
>> >
>> May your insight some day
>> approach in its prominence
>> your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
>> guesswork, and incredibly
>> repetitive verbosity. I
>> look forward to a time when
>> we can exchange views with
>> some degree of brevity and
>> conciseness on your part.
>>
>
>I look forward to a time you can share your personal experience instead of
>substituting external references for your own un-Realised understanding.
>
What "external references,"
the occasional mention of
Watts or Krishnamurti?
Mea culpa, sir! Thank you
for a new experience --
being called "un-Realised"
by an obvious Da-bot!
>
>> >>Much Love to you My Friend - Know that I still Love you!!!
>> >
>> Thanks, right back atcha!
>>
>
>You're welcome Friend!
>
>Love Senen
>
Love to you too -- Bruce
Bruce Morgen
Untrue -- note the tactic
of ASS-uming (this Da-speak
is really silly) that what
has been written of Senen
has been written of
"Everone" -- hey, wouldn't
"Everone" by a lovely new
honorific for Da? :-)
There are literally *dozens*
of people, some of them
frequenting these NGs, whose
words on these matters are
not the least bit assumptive.
You are not for the moment
one of them.
>However when Bruces does the very same thing his attempts to camouflage his own
>comments which could equally be referred to (to use his own language "ASS-ump-tive
>guesswork") however what does Brucey prefers to call that?
>
>Quote: "I simply observe and comment"
>
>Translation: I'm ok. Bruce is great. Everyone else is stuffed.
>
Here again, the assumption
that "Everyone else" is
somehow involved, and that a
declaration of personal
status has been issued --
neither is anywhere near
true, but they're both quite
convenient for a lazy would-
be rhetorician.
>Wake up and smell the roses my Friend!!!!!!
>
>> See below for Bruce Morgen Glossary of Hypocracy:
>>
>> 1. Or so the True Devotee
>> continually ASS-umes.
>>
>> 2. I simply observe and
>> comment. Feel free to
>> continue to guess at my
>> motive(s), I feel quite
>> sure you can do much
>> better than you have so
>> far.
>
>> 3. Opinion (be-LIE-f) noted.
>>
>> 4. "He" knows what the "Real
>> Gig" is and does not need it
>> defined by others. thank you
>> very much for the gratuitous
>> analysis and instruction.
>>
>> 5. I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
>> this with all your heart.
>>
>> 6. May your insight some day
>> approach in its prominence
>> your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
>> guesswork, and incredibly
>> repetitive verbosity.
>
I stand by every one of these
observations, given their
original context.
>> >
>> Thanks, right back atcha! - You bet it is!
>>
>> Love Senen
>> >
>
>PS: By the way the absence of your personal experience and confession in
>all your communications is not "ASS-ump-tive guesswork".
One either gets the experiential
resonance between and behind the
words of another or one doesn't,
Senen Don't let the absence of
explicit confession be mistaken
for the absence of "personal
experience." What you see is
what you see, I have no stake in
your assessment -- by all means
have it your way!
>It is the case.
>If you would like to dig up the archive of ALL our communications with me
>you will see that this is absolutely true.
>
I am not here to "confess" or to
convince you of anything, and I've
made no assertion of extraordinary
status to defend or justify. You
might as well try to cut falling
silk with a woodchopper's maul.
>I welcome your demonstration me otherwise!!!
>
You are beginning to write like
you're learning-disabled -- did
you run out of pamphlets? :-)
>The bell is ringing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
No, Senet is holding down the
"!" key.
Bruce Morgen
>
>
>Randy wrote:
>>
>> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
>> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
>> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been said
>> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
>> spiritual effort".
>
>It has been said, but is that anywhere near a reliable truth?
>
>A minute with a Buddha is the mystical experience of the radiance of that being.
>Or perhaps an exchange of words. Judi got a fine whopper from a short exchange
>with the guru, and doesn't require any bhakti-based relationship. So if your got
>your minute, why stick around?
Exactly -- now I'll brave
Senen's citing me for
quoting Watts by restating
"When you've gotten the
message, hang up the phone."
If you're still on the line
you obviously (believe that
you) haven't gotten the
message -- enjoying a banana
doesn't make an imperative
of moving to Costa Rica and
working a plantation!
>At some point in the bhakti relationship the law
>of diminishing returns comes into force, eh?
>
>Why is there no long line of seekers waiting for their minute with Adi Da to
>achieve a lifetime of spiritual effort?
>
>And why doesn't Adi Da approach his work in this fashion? Why did he move to
>Fiji and not be of this world anymore?
>
>> But to anyone
>> else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
>> mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to
>> say?
>
>I have studied Adi Da's stuff, know many sincere devotees and have yet to find
>anything that wasn't synthesized from traditional, previous material.
>
Exactly my initial enquiry
with Senet, and confirmed
by sampling some of Da's
recent words -- a great
synthesizer/communicator,
but nothing new beyond his
unique way with words.
>Here in internet land, I'm fascinated with breakthrough spiritual thought. Got
>anything new from the guru?
>
His initial confessional post
implied "new" but there was
nothing novel beyond symantics.
>> Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?
>
>I am finished with Guru Bhakti. I was totally devoted and Bhakti fulfilled
>through gazing at my mother's eyes as a suckling infant. She was the perfect
>Guru, the all, the god being. Now, I have moved on other expressions of
>devotion.
>
>Adi Da is Adi Da. He has become, among other things, a mean son of a bitch, but
>perhaps has regained some of his formerly happy inner self following his recent
>visit to the US for glaucoma surgery.
>
Perhaps he should have added
some cannibis to his ample
and famous personal
pharmacopeia -- it's
supposed to do wonders for
glaucoma.
>> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
>> understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been
>> developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm. I've
>> tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and
>> over again, without fail.
>
>This is what is important to any follower of ANY path. And, sincerely, Bhakti
>can be a valid path.
>
Absolutely!
>> But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy? Really
>> and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any
>> given moment?
>
>If one depends on the grace of another human being for one's own happiness, then
>perhaps there is some inner work to do.
>
Yes, the futility of seeking
does not end with dependence,
it ends with freedom.
>> If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open
>> heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.
>
>I suppose lack of inner happiness can be a reason to seek, but what if I'm
>already happy?
>
:-)
>> Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
>> Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
>> anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
>> or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will be an
>> heart-opening experience!
>
>So here's my quest... I'm looking for any new spiritual thought Adi Da has
>created. Westernizing Hindu and Buddhist thought doesn't count. That's old, old stuff.
>
Yup.
Bruce Morgen
>In article <37444004...@news.pond.com>,
> edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com> wrote:
>>
>> > edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> >> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The
>> >Paradox of
>> >> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
>> >> >
>> >> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
>> >> >
>> >> Along similar lines, but
>> >> centered on Osho, one
>> >> might want to peruse the
>> >> following site (I agree
>> >> with a great deal of what
>> >> Christopher says, but
>> >> this does not comprise an
>> >> outright endorsement):
>> >
Yes, exactly -- the official
"K" Foundations are by no
means immune to the
observation, they are loaded
with posthumous sycophants.
>> Do you find yourself in
>> agreement with Edwardji
>> regarding the existence
>> of "a weak moral and
>> ethical sense" in "an
>> enlightened being?"
>
>Actually I have little experience with Adi Da. What little
>I've read by him strikes me as insightful & inspiring.
>
He was and still is an
astonishing writer, purely
wonderful!
>> Is
>> "a weak moral and
>> ethical sense" compatible
>> with the compassion
>> intrinsic to realization?
>
>Is there any absolute measure of morality? Due to the
>vast diversity in creation what is "good" seems to differ
>according to individual perspective. "Ethical & Moral Sense"
>seems partly like the skill of coordinating amidst difference and awareness
>of cultural and other propriety. I'm not endorsing immoral behavior.
>Just thinking that some people may not have as much gift
>at coordination: even with the best of intentions our action
>will never please everyone.
>
Thank you, well put and
well worth pondering.
>> As seen from here a
>> realizer can certainly
>> make errors in decision-
>> making, but this is an
>> intellectual shortcoming
>> and not actually a "moral"
>> or "ethical" deficiency.
>> Love's impetus is perfect,
>> thought's service is (to
>> at least some extent, and
>> quite unavoidably) flawed.
>
>The impetus behind love
>may be perfect. Perhaps
>the impetus _behind_ thought
>is perfect as well. However,
>this perfection when expressed
>through an always limited mind/body
>vehicle takes the coloring of that
>imperfect vehicle.
>
Yes, thank you.
>Perhaps the imperfections of Saints
>are a great blessing.
Indeed, it underlines their
humanity -- and ours!
>I recall Jesus
>quoted as saying something like "why do you
>call me good, there is none good
>but the Father". These very imperfections
>suggest to us that we should look within
>for the source of Spirit. Gurus can only
>point to the door, the door is within us
>and it's up to us to walk through it.
>
Amen!
>Roger
>www.newu.org
>
Much love -- Bruce
Senny
Bruce Morgen wrote:
NEW BOOK --- NEWSFLASH NEWSFLASH NEWSFLASH ---Untrue --
The Dawn Horse Testament of Denial and Defense
and counter-Everything and
Everyone
The extraordinary life-ordeal of Bruce Morgen
whose life-work of Defense and
Justification is only Surpassed by His Ability
To find Spelling Errors in His
Last Endeavour to Criticise when not unable to
find further Loop-holes"
note the tactic
of ASS-uming (this Da-speak
is really silly) that what
has been written of Senen
has been written of
"Everone" -- hey, wouldn't
"Everone" by a lovely new
honorific for Da? :-)There are literally *dozens*
of people, some of them
frequenting these NGs, whose
words on these matters are
not the least bit assumptive.
And you are not one of them. Again speaking for the
personal experiences of others
not being able to find anything in his own dried
up reservoir of non-experience. My affirmations and confession are from
personal experience yours my friend on the otherhand are from the most
rear section of a much over-crowded spectator stand.
>However when Bruces does the very same thing his attempts to camouflage his own
>comments which could equally be referred to (to use his own language "ASS-ump-tive
>guesswork") however what does Brucey prefers to call that?
>
>Quote: "I simply observe and comment"
>
>Translation: I'm ok. Bruce is great. Everyone else is stuffed.
>
Here again, the assumption
that "Everyone else"
is
somehow involved, and that a
declaration of personal
status has been issued --
neither is anywhere near
true, but they're both quite
convenient for a lazy would-
be rhetorician.
>Wake up and smell the roses my Friend!!!!!!
>
>> See below for Bruce Morgen Glossary of Hypocracy:
>>
>> 1. Or so the True Devotee
>> continually ASS-umes.
>>
>> 2. I simply observe and
>> comment. Feel free to
>> continue to guess at my
>> motive(s), I feel quite
>> sure you can do much
>> better than you have so
>> far.
>
>> 3. Opinion (be-LIE-f) noted.
>>
>> 4. "He" knows what the "Real
>> Gig" is and does not need it
>> defined by others. thank you
>> very much for the gratuitous
>> analysis and instruction.
>>
>> 5. I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
>> this with all your heart.
>>
>> 6. May your insight some day
>> approach in its prominence
>> your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
>> guesswork, and incredibly
>> repetitive verbosity.
>
I stand by every one of these
observations, given their
original context.
How could you not! Surrender is not part of your vocabulary.
>> >
>> Thanks, right back atcha! - You bet it is!
>>
>> Love Senen
>> >
>
>PS: By the way the absence of your personal experience and confession in
>all your communications is not "ASS-ump-tive guesswork".
One either gets the experiential
resonance between and behind the
words of another or one doesn't,
Senen Don't let the absence of
explicit confession be mistaken
for the absence of "personal
experience."
Again I am wrong, you are right - however the absence of personal
experience (most especially in relation to Adi Da Samraj) remains!
What you see is
what you see, I have no stake in
your assessment -- by all means
have it your way!
>It is the case.
>If you would like to dig up the archive of ALL our communications with me
>you will see that this is absolutely true.
>
I am not here to "confess" or to
convince you of anything,
Of course not - chuckle chuckle!
and I've
made no assertion of extraordinary
status to defend or justify.
That is evident in some obscure cases.
You
might as well try to cut falling
silk with a woodchopper's maul.
>I welcome your demonstration me otherwise!!!
>
You are beginning to write like
you're learning-disabled -- did
you run out of pamphlets? :-)
The hammer of cricism bangs once more!
>The bell is ringing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
No, Senet is holding down the
"!" key.
Much love -- Bruce
Bruce Morgen
>Bruce Morgen wrote:
>>
>> Allen Crider <caps...@sirius.com> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> >Adi Da is Adi Da. He has become, among other things, a mean son of a bitch, but
>> >perhaps has regained some of his formerly happy inner self following his recent
>> >visit to the US for glaucoma surgery.
>> >
>> Perhaps he should have added
>> some cannibis to his ample
>> and famous personal
>> pharmacopeia -- it's
>> supposed to do wonders for
>> glaucoma.
>
>If Adi Da is a regular user of marijuana he's just gone up 50 points in my book!
>
>;)
>
He's been said to be an avid
consumer of a number of
substances, I have no idea
if that's (still?) true or,
if true, what he currently
uses. I wonder of any of
his devotees are privy to
such information, for
whatever (little?) it's
worth. He's got plenty of
points in my book in any
case, a real piece of work!
:-)
Bruce Morgen
someone else other than
Senen and Bruce are
involved, most strange...
>The extraordinary life-ordeal of Bruce Morgen whose life-work of Defense and
>Justification is only Surpassed by His Ability To find Spelling Errors in His
>Last Endeavour to Criticise when not unable to find further Loop-holes"
>
I'll clue you in, Senen --
if I were the pit bull you
take me for you'd have
long ago been a carcass.
There is no need to find
"Loop-holes" in what
amounts one immense and
gaping "Loop-hole."
>
>> note the tactic
>> of ASS-uming (this Da-speak
>> is really silly) that what
>> has been written of Senen
>> has been written of
>> "Everone" -- hey, wouldn't
>> "Everone" by a lovely new
>> honorific for Da? :-)
>>
>> There are literally *dozens*
>> of people, some of them
>> frequenting these NGs, whose
>> words on these matters are
>> not the least bit assumptive.
>
>And you are not one of them.
OK, opinion noted.
>Again speaking for the personal experiences of others
>not being able to find anything in his own dried up reservoir of non-experience. My
>affirmations and confession are from personal experience yours my friend on the otherhand
>are from the most rear section of a much over-crowded spectator stand.
>
Ah, wishful thinking --
the last refuge of the
willfully blindfolded is
to assert that vision is
a fiction.
>>
>> >However when Bruces does the very same thing his attempts to camouflage his own
>> >comments which could equally be referred to (to use his own language "ASS-ump-tive
>> >guesswork") however what does Brucey prefers to call that?
>> >
>> >Quote: "I simply observe and comment"
>> >
>> >Translation: I'm ok. Bruce is great. Everyone else is stuffed.
>> >
>> Here again, the assumption
>> that "Everyone else"
>
>Here again further defense and justification.
>
It's called noting the
false -- is there some
kind of rule against that
in Adidam?
Quite easily, if you had
even remotely demonstrated
the hypocrisy you accuse
me of -- incidently,
doesn't that accusation
comprise the dreaded and
seeming proscribed
"criticism?"
>Surrender is not part of your vocabulary.
>
Actually surrender is the
song of my life.
>> >> >
>> >> Thanks, right back atcha! - You bet it is!
>> >>
>> >> Love Senen
>> >> >
>> >
>> >PS: By the way the absence of your personal experience and confession in
>> >all your communications is not "ASS-ump-tive guesswork".
>>
>> One either gets the experiential
>> resonance between and behind the
>> words of another or one doesn't,
>> Senen Don't let the absence of
>> explicit confession be mistaken
>> for the absence of "personal
>> experience."
>
>Again I am wrong, you are right - however the absence of personal
>experience (most especially in relation to Adi Da Samraj) remains!
>
We've long ago left Da
behind, you're all alone
now, as are we all.
>> What you see is
>> what you see, I have no stake in
>> your assessment -- by all means
>> have it your way!
>>
>> >It is the case.
>> >If you would like to dig up the archive of ALL our communications with me
>> >you will see that this is absolutely true.
>> >
>> I am not here to "confess" or to
>> convince you of anything,
>
>Of course not - chuckle chuckle!
>
I'm glad we agree - yuk yuk!
>> and I've
>> made no assertion of extraordinary
>> status to defend or justify.
>
>That is evident in some obscure cases.
Whatever that means....
>
>> You
>> might as well try to cut falling
>> silk with a woodchopper's maul.
>>
>> >I welcome your demonstration me otherwise!!!
>> >
>> You are beginning to write like
>> you're learning-disabled -- did
>> you run out of pamphlets? :-)
>
>The hammer of cricism bangs once more!
>
....and apparently finds its
mark. I have no cultic
restriction on having some
fun with an ill-formed,
meaningless sentence -- what
ever happened to the vaunted
Da-ish sense of humor and
lightness of demeanor?
Senny
Allen Crider <caps...@sirius.com> wrote:>>Randy wrote:
>>
>> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
>> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
>> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been said
>> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
>> spiritual effort".
>
>It has been said, but is that anywhere near a reliable truth?
>
>A minute with a Buddha is the mystical experience of the radiance of that being.
>Or perhaps an exchange of words. Judi got a fine whopper from a short exchange
>with the guru, and doesn't require any bhakti-based relationship. So if your got
>your minute, why stick around?Exactly -- now I'll brave
Senen's citing me for
quoting Watts by restating
"When you've gotten the
message, hang up the phone."
If you're still on the line
you obviously (believe that
you) haven't gotten the
message
Seven years ago I was a young and new devotee
and I was sensitive to, felt and
was receiving Adi Da's Spiritual Transmission
right from the beginning.
After a couple of years I was a part of a 6th
stage practise consideration. He
and the Kanyas invited responses from around
the world from anyone who truly and seriously wanted this Direct relationship
to Him and were willing to give up everything for the purpose of God-Realisation
and enter into the 6th stage practise. He invited the confessions of devotees
directly to Him. The 'mature' practitioners of the community (about 8 practitioners)
in Melbourne Australia had a consideration with me about this. All of them
said it was ridiculous that I send through my confession and intention.
That I had only been around a few years and that it would be offensive
to Him to send it across. All refused to support my direct communication
with Him. I remember saying to a devotee, (immediately after he very righteously
said he would not support it, and that it shouldn't happen) that if Adi
Da really wants to receive my confession He will find a way for me
to get it to Him regardless of what you think or say. Well needless to
say Mysteriously 12 hours later a communication went through to the world
gathering saying that He wanted to receive ALL confessions and that no
'insiders' should be allowed to block or censor any communication.
I then duly sent Him my confession. He didn't respond directly, however within a few days a process began in me. I felt unusually feverish while at a Christmas break-up and felt that if I didn't get home soon I would pass out.
I managed to drive home, my body getting hotter and hotter and energy wildly entering my body from above and swirling through me like a raging river. I stopped at a petrol station and bought a 1 litre bottle of apple and black current juice just before getting home.
As soon as I walked in the door all the energy that was animating my body slowly began moving out of my body. A stumbled to my bedroom where I collapsed on the futon mattress that served as my bed at the time. My body was so weak and limp that I could hardly raise my hand any higher than 5 inches. The fever that continued raging through my head and my body was almost unbearable. I couldn't get up. I couldn't escape. I had no phone. I was living alone at the time. I was in a secure apartment that was as protected as Fort Knox 9(sp?). And I had not enough energy to get up and call for help. And furthermore my cell/mobile phone had just died and I had left my battery charger (uncharacteristically) at work. I was Forced to endure it. I felt I was going to die.
For the next 3 days this raging fever persisted. My body was pulsating like a wild and out of control vibrator . I had no food at home. I had spontaneously been moved to adopt a fruitarian diet over the previous 6 months and the purchase of food was a daily event I had strangely bypassed on this day. All I had was my 1 litre bottle of apple and black current juice to sustain my lifeless body for the next 6 days. On the 2nd day (Saturday) I was able crawl to the bathroom to dampen a towel so that I could cool my burning face and forehead. As soon as I got back to my bed however, all energy I had to crawl to the bathroom had left me - again I was paralyzed. The process continued.
All the while the only thing I could remember
were Adi Da's words.... "The time of your greatest suffering and greatest
disturbance are the most important times to turn your attention to me,
they are the greatest opportunities for purification". I had a copy of
one of His books beside me. The book had His photo on the cover, so as
much as I could I would grant attention to His Form rather than to my body,
my sensations or my mind.
In the pst such turning of my attention immediately
dissolves any limitation i was experiencing, however on this occasion I
was not conscious of such dissolution. The only dissolution that seems
to me going on was the dissolution of the one I referred to as me.
Each night I would get a few hours sleep before waking to the same torment. This persisted for a further 3 days. On the Fifth day one of the guys I worked with managed to bypass the security entrance and sneaked into the apartment complex by pretending to be a tenant while another actual tenant was opening the security door. It was so uncharacteristic of me not to call work on a day off (especially 2 days in a row) that they sent someone to my apartment to make sure I was ok. I initially heard the buzzer but I still had no energy to get up. When he began knocking on the door I remember feeling a sense of relief that help had finally arrived. However as soon as he knocked my voice box stopped functioning. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't speak to let him know that I was inside and I didn't have enough energy to lift my arm and throw something to make a noise. It was like a movie scene. He left, and I was stuck there for another day.
On the seventh day I woke up and it was as if
nothing had ever happened. There were no signs of deterioration whatsoever.
In fact I felt better than I had in my whole life - and one thing
was entirely different. I wasn't thinking anymore. The Descending Force
I had felt while contemplating Adi Da all the moments and years previously
was my now my constant Companion. It was there from the moment I woke up
to the moment I went to sleep. I no longer had to seek or find it to locate
it. And from that day on I no longer had the experience of thinking. Sometimes
(although very rarely) memories would spontaneously arise, however my relationship
to them was radically different. Whereas
before they were *my* memories, now they were
as impersonal as seagulls flying by in
the distance. I Knew (prior to mind) that Adi
Da had spontaneously Initiated me into the 6th stage practise. The practise
where thinking or mind is utterly transcended.
Soon after that I spontaneously left the community.
In fact I didn't leave as such, the 3 of us that were living in the same
household all moved out within a couple of weeks.
I moved to an apartment on my own and no-one
from the community bothered to contact me and I didn't bother contacting
the community. Some time later those I recommenced contact with those I
was intimate with. And and like Judi every now and then I had the feeling
that they didn't care etc. It was some time before I understood what I
previously could not comprehend. Like Judi I felt angry toward the community
and was very critical and righteous towards many within the community.
However I never withdrew from my practise. I never withdrew from Adi Da.
And He never withdrew from me. And it was quite a process before I 'saw'
that I was dramatising the very thing I was criticising in the community.
I was dramatising un-Love. It had nothing to do with them and everything
to do with me. I wanted them to contact me, love me, to give me attention.
However I also noticed that in every moment that I did this I was not giving
my feeling-attention to Adi Da's Form or His Descending Force which had
remained as my constant Companion and Resort. This revelation was given
to me because I didn't recoil from Adi Da. Someone said to me once "Go
for the Guru not the devotee" and I
never forgot this no matter how critical I became
of the community.
I knew I had to leave the community, drop all the formal practises and disciplines that I had embraced wholeheartedly over the years. I had to learn to simply resort one-pointedly to this Descending Force and Presence. And I had to do it in the world, without support. In the cut and thrust of business - not in an ashram or a monestry. The stallions energies had been harnessed and it was time to let him loose. I knew that in every moment of reaction to any and every devotee, that I was actually simultaneously recoiling or contracting from Adi Da and this Descending Force that obliterated all lovelessness, all need, all desiring, or all that is un-Love. It seems crazy now that I look back that it was even possible to make such a choice, however Adi Da is right... the act of egoity is incomprehensible and the ego is a formidable opponent for the Divine.
I have not formally reassociated with the community
because my life since then has been what I had always wanted it to be -
a spontaneous and effortless, undisturbed moment to moment
existence. I still love everyone in the community and can see them all
in a radically new light. Much has been revealed about the character of
Narcissus and it is
clear to me that the process is not absolutely
complete.
Last year I moved to another state only to find
strangers who when I introduced them to Adi Da's videos spontaneously had
a response to him. And so I now live in a co-operative household with others
who are not formally associated but have a strong response to Adi Da. I
still advocate and Love him profoundly. He is very Real to me as a Force
and a Presence, and His bodily Form still has the same effect when I contemplate
or see it. It is obvious now more than ever before (since He no longer
Teaches or Speaks) that His Manifestation and Sign is more Force-full and
Obvious
than it ever has. And all of this without ever
having set foot in front of His physical form. I Know He was the Source
of this Transformation, and my desperate longing to see Him physically
likewise vanished in that Event. He gave me the Gift I most wanted - the
direct relationship to Him as He Is.
Maybe one day I'll see Him physically and maybe one day I'll reassociate formally - I don't know, however one thing is certain, the absence of that which moved me to associate to begin with has been Filled. I was re-Awakened to what I was seeking.
Be tolerant of my Fun and Games - It really is all meaningless Play for me now.
My Love to you Bruce and to all,
Senen
[snipped for brevity]
Senny
[snip]
*******
Da moved the day after I met him to Hawaii. I had many far out
insightful blissful experiences during my 4 months there at the ashram
in Clear Lake,
and I found myself crying and laughing quite a bit, but I was shunned by
the other devotees and they were not very nice to me. I thought that it
would be a place
of realization and understanding, from reading his books at least, but
it's not.
A bunch of sheep is what you have there. Now perhaps if he would have
been there
with me it might have been a different story, but I left and came back
to
Santa Cruz. I thought they were all pretty stupid actually, they all had
blinders on.
Again for the record Bruce my history has some similarity to Judi's:
Seven years ago I was a young and new devotee
and I was sensitive to, felt and
was receiving Adi Da's Spiritual Transmission
right from the beginning.
After a couple of years I was a part of a 6th
stage practise consideration. He
and the Kanyas invited responses from around
the world from anyone who truly and seriously wanted this Direct relationship
to Him and were willing to give up everything for the purpose of God-Realisation
and enter into the 6th stage practise. He invited the confessions of devotees
directly to Him. The 'mature' practitioners of the community (about 8 practitioners)
in Melbourne Australia had a consideration with me about this. All of them
said it was ridiculous that I send through my confession and intention.
That I had only been around a few years and that it would be offensive
to Him to send it across. All refused to support my direct communication
with Him. I remember saying to a devotee, (immediately after he very righteously
said he would not support it, and that it shouldn't happen) that if Adi
Da really wants to receive my confession He will find a way for me
to get it to Him regardless of what you think or say. Well needless to
say Mysteriously 12 hours later a communication went through to the world
gathering saying that He wanted to receive ALL confessions and that no
'insiders' should be allowed to block or censor any communication.
I then duly sent Him my confession. He didn't respond directly, however within a few days a process began in me. I felt unusually feverish while at a Christmas break-up and felt that if I didn't get home soon I would pass out.
I managed to drive home, my body getting hotter and hotter and energy wildly entering my body from above and swirling through me like a raging river. I stopped at a petrol station and bought a 1 litre bottle of apple and black current juice just before getting home.
As soon as I walked in the door all the energy that was animating my body slowly began moving out of my body. A stumbled to my bedroom where I collapsed on the futon mattress that served as my bed at the time. My body was so weak and limp that I could hardly raise my hand any higher than 5 inches. The fever that continued raging through my head and my body was almost unbearable. I couldn't get up. I couldn't escape. I had no phone. I was living alone at the time. I was in a secure apartment that was as protected as Fort Knox 9(sp?). And I had not enough energy to get up and call for help. And furthermore my cell/mobile phone had just died and I had left my battery charger (uncharacteristically) at work. I was Forced to endure it. I felt I was going to die.
For the next 3 days this raging fever persisted. My body was pulsating like a wild and out of control vibrator . I had no food at home. I had spontaneously been moved to adopt a fruitarian diet over the previous 6 months and the purchase of food was a daily event I had strangely bypassed on this day. All I had was my 1 litre bottle of apple and black current juice to sustain my lifeless body for the next 6 days. On the 2nd day (Saturday) I was able crawl to the bathroom to dampen a towel so that I could cool my burning face and forehead. As soon as I got back to my bed however, all energy I had to crawl to the bathroom had left me - again I was paralyzed. The process continued.
All the while the only thing I could remember
were Adi Da's words.... "The time of your greatest suffering and greatest
disturbance are the most important times to turn your attention to me,
they are the greatest opportunities for purification". I had a copy of
one of His books beside me. The book had His photo on the cover, so as
much as I could I would grant attention to His Form rather than to my body,
my sensations or my mind.
In the pst such turning of my attention immediately
dissolves any limitation i was experiencing, however on this occasion I
was not conscious of such dissolution. The only dissolution that seems
to me going on was the dissolution of the one I referred to as me.
Each night I would get a few hours sleep before waking to the same torment. This persisted for a further 3 days. On the Fifth day one of the guys I worked with managed to bypass the security entrance and sneaked into the apartment complex by pretending to be a tenant while another actual tenant was opening the security door. It was so uncharacteristic of me not to call work on a day off (especially 2 days in a row) that they sent someone to my apartment to make sure I was ok. I initially heard the buzzer but I still had no energy to get up. When he began knocking on the door I remember feeling a sense of relief that help had finally arrived. However as soon as he knocked my voice box stopped functioning. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't speak to let him know that I was inside and I didn't have enough energy to lift my arm and throw something to make a noise. It was like a movie scene. He left, and I was stuck there for another day.
On the seventh day I woke up and it was as if
nothing had ever happened. There were no signs of deterioration whatsoever.
In fact I felt better than I had in my whole life - and one thing
was entirely different. I wasn't thinking anymore. The Descending Force
I had felt while contemplating Adi Da all the moments and years previously
was my now my constant Companion. It was there from the moment I woke up
to the moment I went to sleep. I no longer had to seek or find it to locate
it. And from that day on I no longer had the experience of thinking. Sometimes
(although very rarely) memories would spontaneously arise, however my relationship
to them was radically different. Whereas
before they were *my* memories, now they were
as impersonal as seagulls flying by in
the distance. I Knew (prior to mind) that Adi
Da had spontaneously Initiated me into the 6th stage practise. The practise
where thinking or mind is utterly transcended.
Soon after that I spontaneously left the community.
In fact I didn't leave as such, the 3 of us that were living in the same
household all moved out within a couple of weeks.
I moved to an apartment on my own and no-one
from the community bothered to contact me and I didn't bother contacting
the community. Some time later those I recommenced contact with those I
was intimate with. And and like Judi every now and then I had the feeling
that they didn't care etc. It was some time before I understood what I
previously could not comprehend. Like Judi I felt angry toward the community
and was very critical and righteous towards many within the community.
However I never withdrew from my practise. I never withdrew from Adi Da.
And He never withdrew from me. And it was quite a process before I 'saw'
that I was dramatising the very thing I was criticising in the community.
I was dramatising un-Love. It had nothing to do with them and everything
to do with me. I wanted them to contact me, love me, to give me attention.
However I also noticed that in every moment that I did this I was not giving
my feeling-attention to Adi Da's Form or His Descending Force which had
remained as my constant Companion and Resort. This revelation was given
to me because I didn't recoil from Adi Da. Someone said to me once "Go
for the Guru not the devotee" and I
never forgot this no matter how critical I became
of the community.
I knew I had to leave the community, drop all the formal practises and disciplines that I had embraced wholeheartedly over the years. I had to learn to simply resort one-pointedly to this Descending Force and Presence. And I had to do it in the world, without support. In the cut and thrust of business - not in an ashram or a monestry. The stallions energies had been harnessed and it was time to let him loose. I knew that in every moment of reaction to any and every devotee, that I was actually simultaneously recoiling or contracting from Adi Da and this Descending Force that obliterated all lovelessness, all need, all desiring, or all that is un-Love. It seems crazy now that I look back that it was even possible to make such a choice, however Adi Da is right... the act of egoity is incomprehensible and the ego is a formidable opponent for the Divine.
I have not formally reassociated with the community
because my life since then has been what I had always wanted it to be -
a spontaneous and effortless, undisturbed moment to moment
existence. I still love everyone in the community and can see them all
in a radically new light. Much has been revealed about the character of
Narcissus and it is
clear to me that the process is not absolutely
complete.
Last year I moved to another state only to find
strangers who when I introduced them to Adi Da's videos spontaneously had
a response to him. And so I now live in a co-operative household with others
who are not formally associated but have a strong response to Adi Da. I
still advocate and Love him profoundly. He is very Real to me as a Force
and a Presence, and His bodily Form still has the same effect when I contemplate
or see it. It is obvious now more than ever before (since He no longer
Teaches or Speaks) that His Manifestation and Sign is more Force-full and
Obvious
than it ever has. And all of this without ever
having set foot in front of His physical form. I Know He was the Source
of this Transformation, and my desperate longing to see Him physically
likewise vanished in that Event. He gave me the Gift I most wanted - the
direct relationship to Him as He Is.
Maybe one day I'll see Him physically and maybe one day I'll reassociate formally - I don't know, however one thing is certain, the absence of that which moved me to associate to begin with has been Filled. I was re-Awakened to what I was seeking.
And I understand that you have to do what you
have to do - all I proffer is not to
relinquish the Gift too hastily - It is available
to us - regardless! And re-consider the re-directed blame. That's all my
friend. No zealot left here. Just an ingredient to throw
into the pot - freely take it out and throw it
away if you wish.
Be tolerant of my Fun and Games in the meantime
- It really is all
meaningless Play for me now.
My Love to you Judi,
Senen
> [snip]
Roger Isaacs
Lighten up already. Don't you see that your trail in this post is
littered with the very debris that you speak of? Recall that Chinese
aphorism: when you point your finger in blame please note that three
fingers point back at yourself!
"Cooperation + Tolerance = Peace"
Why do we need tolerance? The world is filled with diversity and the
human ego before enlightenment is mainly concerned with expanding it's
security & power by opposing that which is different.
Tolerance of difference is an improvement, however it is not the end.
Tolerance can evolve into genuine appreciation of difference. But in
order to achieve this we have to join in cooperation and step outside
the egoic opposites such as doubting/believing, defending/criticising
etc. Doesn't your post show that you are firmly entrenched in these
opposites?
> They constantly use the references of others as substitute vocal
pieces for
> their own inexperience or non-Realisation.
>
> And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one who can FROM
> EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner
> of Spiritual and Religious Communication.
So you're claiming "direct realisation" Senny? If not then I guess
you're just "using the reference of others", something which you
condemn. So you condemn yourself. Your criticising of others betrays an
ego locked in conflict with itself.
> The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never speaks from personal
> experience. He
> always has some gibbering nonsense to say (and justify) about why he
is
> saying what he
> is saying. He never gets it! He never gets the fact that it's all
about him!
Are there any mirrors in your house?
> Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick to tell you - No -
(as
> secretly as
> possible via personal email perhaps - just in case he should lose his
> self-presumed
> status as authority from his own blind followers. Yet he is seen
> continuously
> commenting on matters that are outside of his experience or direct
> knowledge.
>
> He speaks about Realisation but has Realised nothing himself.
> He speaks about the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself.
> He speaks about Reality but has not Realised Reality himself.
> He speaks about Love but has not Realised Love himself.
> He speaks about Consciousness but has not Realised Consciousness
Himself.
Ok Senny, So apparently you claim to have "Realized Truth", "Realized
Love", "Realized Reality", "Realized Consciousness"? If this is true
then why does your post reek of criticism rather than cooperation and
tolerance?
> He has Realised nothing but comments on everything. This is what the
cultish
> bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the point of view of others
and
> affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or intellectual or mind
based
> point of view.
Does this describe you?
> He is the ultimate jokester. He is the ultimate fool. He is
> the epitome of self-delusion.
>
> Much Love again My Friend,
>
> Senen
I think one issue this post explores is something like "do the
enlightened always display perfect moral & ethical balance?"
Because of the diversity in this world, because there are ALWAYS
multiple ways to look at any situation, I'm suggesting that morality,
like beauty, is significantly in the eye of the beholder.
There is no such thing as perfect moral/ethical behavior because
different folks judge with different criteria.
Again, the words of Jesus 'why do you call me good, there is none good
but the Father'.
If Adi Da's behavior raises questions then it's a blessing in disguise
because NO guru can ever totally meet the needs of ALL people. We need
to depend less on the external Guru and discover the real Guru "the
innocent guiding self within (MMY)".
BTW, my mentor recommends Adi Da as a teacher and I do have a link to
the Adi Da web site from mine.
Bruce Morgen
[snip]
Thank you for your heartfelt
testimony, it requires no
comment from here.
Much love -- Bruce
Roger Isaacs
This is a f-f-fascinating p-p-phenomenon (a lisp ala Daffy Duck ).
I have great reverence for Osho. His work to me seems genuinely
inspired. Yet his followers caused havoc.
I have great reverence for Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Yet his followers
seem to border on elitism, superiority, and the usual intolerance for
those with a different approach.
I have great reverence for Jesus, however the havoc caused by his
followers is unparalleled in human history. ( a favorite book 'The Dark
Side of Christian History' )
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964487349/qid%3D927298979/002-
8137239-2716055
Seems that whatever approach an enlightened leader takes, his/her
followers acting from the ego always corrupt the message. No matter
what archetype a leader may use to express the inexpressable, the
Ultimate remains beyond expression, beyond communication.
This must be a design of nature so that we will not mistake the
messenger for the goal. We might look outward to leaders for
inspiration but the goal is within us.
Roger Isaacs
"Randy" <ra...@worksoft.com> wrote:
> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this
thread,
> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen
Bhagavan Adi
> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been
said
> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime
of
left
> the Way of the Heart, but it seemed like it had something to do with
not
anyone
> else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an
open
> mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers
have to
Da?
>
> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
> understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching
Because Adi's teaching is true, and I believe it is, does not mean that
other paths are false. Truth is a multi-colored thing, like the blind
men and the elephant. I think the essence of cooperation & tolerance
demands respect & appreciation for difference.
> and Company have been
> developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's
enthusiasm. I've
> tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated
over and
> over again, without fail. But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy?
Really
> and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life
at any
> given moment? If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and
open
> heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully
satisfied!.
> Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to
criticize
> Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation
with
> anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against
whatever he
> or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will
be an
> heart-opening experience!
>
> Love to all,
> Randy
BTW, Randy, thanks for posting http://peace.adidam.org/EssayEntry.htm
here recently. The message is _very_ important, inspiring, and I'm in
near full agreement.
Heart Happy
Your history is a lot like mine. But what happened to me Senny was
one night after all those years of seeking and having experiences I
went into a deeper place within myself and found myself heartbroken
of the whole business with no where to really turn. And I saw that
I was suffering. And there was no God, no teacher, no teaching that
I could turn to anymore that could alleviate my suffering, because
I felt that I had just been thru it all. So I took a deep breath,
dried my eyes and looked to myself to see if I had errored somehow
in my approach because I saw that under it all I was still not
satisfied.
My life had been about love and surrender to the teaching. And I really
took a deep look at that and what I discovered was that all my effort
was simply a selfish activity of looking for a payoff and everything
about myself was rallied around this activity. And I saw that my
activity
was simply suffering itself. It was my own activity of seeking
and looking towards some experience, always geared towards the future
that would somehow bring final relief. I wanted my payoff. But the
problem
that I ran into was I found that there was no way for me to continue
with
this effort if all it was was seeking. Because I saw that all my love
and effort was not realy love at all, so what was I do, who was I to be?
I was left with no way to
construct an identity or a life period. And that is when my heart really
broke
and I was left alone and in the dark, literally with no way to continue.
And surrender overtook me. And then within the next moment energy filled
me and my eyes opened and I immediately and directly understood.
I was left simply as myself, which was "no seeking". And I saw that I
*was*
everything, literally! There was nothing in existence, no experience, no
other,
no love, no nothing, that was not literally *me* - which was
consciousness
itself. So, what I am saying to you Senen is that your hearts desire is
not
to be found within experience all by itself, no matter how energeticaly
blissful and far out. So much the worse for it. :-) You've got to get
to the point where there is
no one left to witness or enjoy. Who was born? No one. Who's gonna die?
No one.
Who's gonna enjoy and take advantage of this enlightenment? Me!! :-)
Judi
--
Bruce Morgen
>This is a f-f-fascinating p-p-phenomenon (a lisp ala Daffy Duck ).
>
Yes, and an astonishingly
and persistently recurrent
one, century after century
after century.
>I have great reverence for Osho. His work to me seems genuinely
>inspired. Yet his followers caused havoc.
>
Chrisopher Calder's website
is very informative about
Osho -- an interesting,
complex man and, as you
state, "genuinely inspired."
>I have great reverence for Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Yet his followers
>seem to border on elitism, superiority, and the usual intolerance for
>those with a different approach.
>
Yes, and "MMY" is still
alive as the decay in the
TM estabishment proceeds
apace.
>I have great reverence for Jesus, however the havoc caused by his
>followers is unparalleled in human history. ( a favorite book 'The Dark
>Side of Christian History' )
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964487349/qid%3D927298979/002-
>8137239-2716055
>
Yup, quite amazing, and
the betrayal of Jesus'
life and work began with
Paul -- Christianity
really ought to be called
Paulianism, a religion
Jesus would have regarded
with befuddlement I'm
sure.
>Seems that whatever approach an enlightened leader takes, his/her
>followers acting from the ego always corrupt the message.
Yes, precisely.
>No matter
>what archetype a leader may use to express the inexpressable, the
>Ultimate remains beyond expression, beyond communication.
>
Indeed, one can only
point.
>This must be a design of nature so that we will not mistake the
>messenger for the goal. We might look outward to leaders for
>inspiration but the goal is within us.
>
Always.
Roger Isaacs
> >
> Yes, and an astonishingly
> and persistently recurrent
> one, century after century
> after century.
>
> >I have great reverence for Osho. His work to me seems genuinely
> >inspired. Yet his followers caused havoc.
> >
> Chrisopher Calder's website
> is very informative about
> Osho -- an interesting,
> complex man and, as you
> state, "genuinely inspired."
>
> >I have great reverence for Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Yet his followers
> >seem to border on elitism, superiority, and the usual intolerance for
> >those with a different approach.
> >
> Yes, and "MMY" is still
> alive as the decay in the
> TM estabishment proceeds
> apace.
you've got it right.
> >I have great reverence for Jesus, however the havoc caused by his
> >followers is unparalleled in human history. ( a favorite book 'The
Dark
> >Side of Christian History' )
> >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964487349/qid%
3D927298979/002-
> >8137239-2716055
> >
> Yup, quite amazing, and
> the betrayal of Jesus'
> life and work began with
> Paul -- Christianity
> really ought to be called
> Paulianism, a religion
> Jesus would have regarded
> with befuddlement I'm
> sure.
Paul was faced with a most difficult task, no, make that an impossible
task! Glad I wasn't in that seat. What a great sacrifice to even
attempt such a task. ( I profess to have not studied Paul very much )
Elaine Pagel's discusses writings from the early fathers of the Church.
These leaders demanded faith without reason (Bhakti sans discernment)
perhaps because they were somehow threatened by questions or certainly
they seemed most interested in advancing their authority.
I think Bhakti ( devotion / transcendance through expansive feeling )
is just as valid as other paths. The question for me is does one have
the natural propensity of devotion? OR does one have an innate skill at
being lead to the transcendant by another path such as Discernment (
Gyana Yoga ). I think finding one's natural gift is the key.
I'm speculating here cause I'm not a Bhakta, but seems to me like
devotion only becomes ripe when TWOness transforms into ONEness. That
is: while there is still the devotee & the object of devotion, there is
separation. To be effective devotion must at somepoint transcend the
separation. And I don't think everyone has this particular skill of
transcendance through devotion, others may have the skill at
transcending through the intellect, the will etc.
Christ to me is the most extraordinary example of the potential latent
in the human form. But Christianity has turned it around and made him
the ONLY son of God, has made Christ Consciousness something
unattainable, has made Christ an IDOL depite the prolific warnings
against idolatry. Christianity has used the word "faith" to ensure
order and conformity on a political level. This is NOT Bhakti! It's
just another play in the human drama of security & power. Doesn't
"faith" ultimately mean "faith in oneself"? Faith in anything external
will always be disappointed.
Roger
www.newu.org
> >Seems that whatever approach an enlightened leader takes, his/her
> >followers acting from the ego always corrupt the message.
>
> Yes, precisely.
>
> >No matter
> >what archetype a leader may use to express the inexpressable, the
> >Ultimate remains beyond expression, beyond communication.
> >
> Indeed, one can only
> point.
>
> >This must be a design of nature so that we will not mistake the
> >messenger for the goal. We might look outward to leaders for
> >inspiration but the goal is within us.
> >
> Always.
>
> __________________________________________________
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>
> m(_ _)m
>
Petros
>
snip
> Seven years ago I was a young and new devotee and I was sensitive to,
> felt and
> was receiving Adi Da's Spiritual Transmission right from the
> beginning.
>
> After a couple of years I was a part of a 6th stage practise
> consideration. He
> and the Kanyas invited responses from around the world from anyone who
> truly and seriously wanted this Direct relationship to Him and were
> willing to give up everything for the purpose of God-Realisation and
> enter into the 6th stage practise. He invited the confessions of
> devotees directly to Him. The 'mature' practitioners of the community
> (about 8 practitioners) in Melbourne Australia had a consideration
> with me about this. All of them said it was ridiculous that I send
> through my confession and intention. That I had only been around a few
> years and that it would be offensive to Him to send it across. All
> refused to support my direct communication with Him.
This is precisely the sort of mind-games and politicing that goes on
around Jones' (Franklin, not Jim) little mandala of worshippers. You
were involved with these people for two years and thought nothing wrong
with them telling you when it is and is not "appropriate" for you to
send a little letter to the Big Guy. The so-called "mature"
practitioners are merely those who have been more heavily socialized
(conditioned) into the accepted norms of the community, the purpose of
which is to insulate Jones from any contaminating contact with the
outside world (or "unprepared" devotees).
>
> [snipped for brevity]
Petros
>
> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this thread,
> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen Bhagavan Adi
> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been said
> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime of
> spiritual effort". Judi, I don't recall if you ever told me why you left
> the Way of the Heart, but it seemed like it had something to do with not
> wanting to be part of a group (ANY group). Is that correct? But to anyone
> else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an open
> mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers have to
> say? Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi Da?
I'm just against "Sri Adi Da" at the moment. I have read just about
everything he's written, and "grokked" it fairly well, even some hard to
find works like _Nirvanasara_ and _Garbage and the Goddess_. I've read
three different editions of the _Knee of Listening_ (and prefer the
first, before DFJ edited out some words of gratitude to his predecessors
like Ramana.) I have met gurus in real life such as Yogi Ramsuratkumar
and several Western teachers such as Lee Lozowick, Andrew Cohen and
Wayne Liquorman (a disciple of Ramesh Balsekar.) I have never met a
Western teacher on the level of the Indian gurus.
I was impressed and inwardly moved by the teaching of DFJ for many
years, but have noticed a disturbing progression in his works over the
years from emphasis on the disciple and on the teaching itself to
emphasis on hero worship of Da himself. Have you (or any current formal
student of Da's) ever done a comparative study of his early writings and
his newer writings? Are formal students even permitted to read the older
material? Have you witnessed this evolution?
I was impressed by Da, but the low level of all of his disciples that
I've met has led me to re-evaluate my judgment. Da is best
conceptualized as a helium-filled balloon. He rather looks like one,
actually. There's a smaller balloon for his head and a larger balloon
for his gut -- very appropriately. He consumes his devotees. Have you
ever watched a video from the Dawn Horse press showing him on his little
island in Fiji? There's this big fat guy surrounded by a bunch of very
skinny, nerdy looking guys prostrating themselves before him. Why is
every one on his island skinny and he is the only fat one?
I am serious.
They come for the promise of Liberation, and get enslavement. He
consumes them.
It is not in Da's interest for any of his devotees to become truly Free
(as he claims to be Free, which he might be.) It is in his interest to
reinforce their dependence upon him.
Ramana did not do this. I have spent time at Ramanashram (even in the
very room that Da stayed in during his visit in 1973, the one
constructed by Annamalai Svami.) Nityananda did not do this.
Ramsuratkumar does not do this.
Muktandanda did enslave his followers; and we see that Da has a very
high opinion of Muktananda even though he never followed M's
instructions and willfully misinterpreted M's letter to him (published
in the Knee.)
What happened to Da Kalki by the way?
> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
> understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching and Company have been
> developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's enthusiasm. I've
> tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated over and
> over again, without fail. But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy? Really
> and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life at any
> given moment? If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and open
> heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully satisfied!.
> Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to criticize
> Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation with
> anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against whatever he
> or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will be an
> heart-opening experience!
Which is prior, the Teaching or the Teacher?
Senny
Petros wrote:
> Senny wrote:
> >
> snip
> > Seven years ago I was a young and new devotee and I was sensitive to,
> > felt and
> > was receiving Adi Da's Spiritual Transmission right from the
> > beginning.
> >
> > After a couple of years I was a part of a 6th stage practise
> > consideration. He
> > and the Kanyas invited responses from around the world from anyone who
> > truly and seriously wanted this Direct relationship to Him and were
> > willing to give up everything for the purpose of God-Realisation and
> > enter into the 6th stage practise. He invited the confessions of
> > devotees directly to Him. The 'mature' practitioners of the community
> > (about 8 practitioners) in Melbourne Australia had a consideration
> > with me about this. All of them said it was ridiculous that I send
> > through my confession and intention. That I had only been around a few
> > years and that it would be offensive to Him to send it across. All
> > refused to support my direct communication with Him.
>
> This is precisely the sort of mind-games and politicing that goes on
> around Jones' (Franklin, not Jim) little mandala of worshippers. You
> were involved with these people for two years and thought nothing wrong
> with them telling you when it is and is not "appropriate" for you to
> send a little letter to the Big Guy. The so-called "mature"
> practitioners are merely those who have been more heavily socialized
> (conditioned) into the accepted norms of the community, the purpose of
> which is to insulate Jones from any contaminating contact with the
> outside world (or "unprepared" devotees).
>
> >
> > [snipped for brevity]
Everyone is intitled to their own opinion and so are you
Senny
I understand completely what you are saying and as always the limits of
language
modifies or distills the actual communication. Let me elaborate...your
conclusive
awakening is similar if not perhaps identical - although I could not use the
same
words. The Force of energy I'm referring to is not bliss-ful as in the many
deep and
absorptive samadhis I felt in meditation during the period immediately prior
to
my event. And while I refer to it as my companion I cannot find any
difference between it and myself. When I first went to Adi Da I was in
absolute despair - suicidal in my feeling is the only way I could accurately
describe it - I had read hundreds of books,
exhausted every meditation practise find , every new age practitioner
process I could participate in, every religion I could get involved with,
every drug I could induce, every sexual experience I could have and
spiritual guru I could find. My search was at it's end. It was then that a
friend gave me a copy of the Dawn Horse Testament which i read from cover to
cover and I understood. I knew what my whole life was about. I knew that I
was a loveless, desperate seeker. And at that very point a complete
revolution in my consciousness occurred. And I similarly dried my eyes and
got up. At that time this current revealed itself for the first time and
never left. At that point there was a me
constantly, perpetually communing with this current. Sometimes forgetting
sometimes
to do it here and there. On what I refer to as my death event, I died or
dissolves in that
current or Force. I became that Force. When I say it was my experience, I
don't mean it
as a coming and going or changing experience. It is my very condition. It
never changes.
Nothing has ever changed from that moment on. From that moment I realised
that there is no Go. That God was simply a name given to this condition, and
I was that. I knew that I had never been born, or had parents or brothers or
friends. They were simply me. There is no heart desire any more. No
yearning. Nothing to find. Nothing to lose.
Senen
Bruce Morgen
On Fri, 21 May 1999 19:43:45 GMT Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com> writes:
>In article <374583af...@news.pond.com>,
>> >This is a f-f-fascinating p-p-phenomenon (a lisp ala Daffy Duck ).
>> >
>> Yes, and an astonishingly
>> and persistently recurrent
>> one, century after century
>> after century.
>>
>> >I have great reverence for Osho. His work to me seems genuinely
>> >inspired. Yet his followers caused havoc.
>> >
>> Christopher Calder's website
>> is very informative about
>> Osho -- an interesting,
>> complex man and, as you
>> state, "genuinely inspired."
>>
>> >I have great reverence for Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Yet his
>followers
>> >seem to border on elitism, superiority, and the usual intolerance
>for
>> >those with a different approach.
>> >
>> Yes, and "MMY" is still
>> alive as the decay in the
>> TM estabishment proceeds
>> apace.
>
>you've got it right.
>
The symptoms aren't hard
to spot.
>> >I have great reverence for Jesus, however the havoc caused by his
>> >followers is unparalleled in human history. ( a favorite book 'The
>Dark
>> >Side of Christian History' )
>> >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964487349/qid%
>3D927298979/002-
>> >8137239-2716055
>> >
>> Yup, quite amazing, and
>> the betrayal of Jesus'
>> life and work began with
>> Paul -- Christianity
>> really ought to be called
>> Paulianism, a religion
>> Jesus would have regarded
>> with befuddlement I'm
>> sure.
>
>Paul was faced with a most difficult task, no, make that an
>impossible
>task! Glad I wasn't in that seat. What a great sacrifice to even
>attempt such a task. ( I profess to have not studied Paul very much )
>
There's a wonderful new
biography -- the guy was
extraordinary, but it
was quite clear his zeal
and determination far
exceeded his
understanding of Jesus'
life and work -- of
course I'm referring to
the Jesus who speaks in
The Gospel Of Thomas
rather than the various
Jesi depicted in the
canonical NT.
>Elaine Pagel's discusses writings from the early fathers of the
>Church.
>These leaders demanded faith without reason (Bhakti sans discernment)
>perhaps because they were somehow threatened by questions or
>certainly they seemed most interested in advancing their authority.
>
One has to remember the
Pharisaic context of
debate and discussion --
these "early fathers"
were not "learned in the
law" and skilled in
rhetoric like Jesus, who
was reputed to be a
formidable scholar and
rhetorician. Declining
dialogue was probably a
purely practical
measure.
>I think Bhakti ( devotion / transcendance through expansive feeling )
>is just as valid as other paths. The question for me is does one have
>the natural propensity of devotion? OR does one have an innate skill
>at being lead to the transcendant by another path such as Discernment
>(Gyana Yoga ). I think finding one's natural gift is the key.
>
Yes, the right approach or
blend of approaches for
the individual incarnation.
>I'm speculating here cause I'm not a Bhakta, but seems to me like
>devotion only becomes ripe when TWOness transforms into ONEness.
That's the culmination of
all paths, not just bhakti.
>That
>is: while there is still the devotee & the object of devotion, there
>is
>separation. To be effective devotion must at somepoint transcend the
>separation. And I don't think everyone has this particular skill of
>transcendance through devotion, others may have the skill at
>transcending through the intellect, the will etc.
>
Yes, well put.
>Christ to me is the most extraordinary example of the potential
>latent
>in the human form.
I'm not sure about the
"most," but the word
"extraordinary" is
certainly warranted.
>But Christianity has turned it around and made him
>the ONLY son of God, has made Christ Consciousness something
>unattainable, has made Christ an IDOL despite the prolific warnings
>against idolatry.
Yes, the loophole being
a literal interpretation
of the "graven image"
prohibition in The Ten
Commandments.
>Christianity has used the word "faith" to ensure
>order and conformity on a political level. This is NOT Bhakti!
No, this is stipulated
belief, not natural
devotion.
>It's
>just another play in the human drama of security & power.
That's what it amounts to.
>Doesn't
>"faith" ultimately mean "faith in oneself"?
I'd say faith in the
spiritual sense is the
abdication of will --
"Not my will, but Thine,"
with "Thine" defined
experientially rather
accepted via dogma.
>Faith in anything
>external will always be disappointed.
>
Faith tainted with
expectation is just
ambition in "holy" robes.
Faith in the sense of
surrender can never "be
disappointed."
[snip]
Senny
> > Senny wrote:
> > >
> > snip
> > > Seven years ago I was a young and new devotee and I was sensitive to,
> > > felt and
> > > was receiving Adi Da's Spiritual Transmission right from the
> > > beginning.
> > >
> > > After a couple of years I was a part of a 6th stage practise
> > > consideration. He
> > > and the Kanyas invited responses from around the world from anyone who
> > > truly and seriously wanted this Direct relationship to Him and were
> > > willing to give up everything for the purpose of God-Realisation and
> > > enter into the 6th stage practise. He invited the confessions of
> > > devotees directly to Him. The 'mature' practitioners of the community
> > > (about 8 practitioners) in Melbourne Australia had a consideration
> > > with me about this. All of them said it was ridiculous that I send
> > > through my confession and intention. That I had only been around a few
> > > years and that it would be offensive to Him to send it across. All
> > > refused to support my direct communication with Him.
> >
> > This is precisely the sort of mind-games and politicing that goes on
> > around Jones' (Franklin, not Jim) little mandala of worshippers. You
> > were involved with these people for two years and thought nothing wrong
> > with them telling you when it is and is not "appropriate" for you to
> > send a little letter to the Big Guy.
Petros you are presuming here. I didn't say whether there was anything wrong
with it or not. In fact the whole consideration was a very fiery affair. It
wasn't
a cool and smiling matter. When I used the term mature I used it because this
was the term the community use for practitioners who were practising at a
particular level.
At a certain level of practise one has to have the capacity to receive
criticism
from others - any criticism. The test of one's practise is the capacity to
remain
in the position of consciousness itself and not to collapse in feeling. And
not to
remain in the self-position. To persist as love. Not to persist as an angry
and
righteous adolescent son of a bitch thinking that everyone's point of view is
not
ok or wrong. As if they are god and everyone else is a shlep. Everyone is
entitled
to their point of view. Who are you or I to say it's wrong? That's politicing.
That's mind-games. That's the god-man game - saying "you should all listen to
me and not communicate yourselves in that manner". That's what conventional
religion does. It controls people by saying what is acceptable or not. Why
shouldn't they have said what they said? It wasn't a problem for me. It's only
a problem for someone who can't receive it. It's only a probelm for someone
who *reacts* or feels 'less than' as a result of someone elses comments. What
a fucking naive and imature bastard you would have to
be if you couldn't take that. It's bullshit. It was not about right or wrong.
It was
about reaction or no reaction. It was about righteuosness or tolerance. It was
about humour or uptightness. The latter indicates reactivity. It has nothing
to do
with love and it has nothing to do with spirituality. As I have said and will
continue to say people who can't deal with the opinions of others (no matter
what
those opinions are) should just stay home, wank themselves and shut the fuck
up!
Many people criticise spiritual communities organisations etc, on Usenet but
what they don't get is the fact that *they* are reacting. There is no one in
the room that they are dealing with other than themsleves and god damn
computer screen. They see a little post on Usenet and they are offended.
That's the truth. That's mind games. There is no-one there other than them and
their own mind. Community they are offended by is not even there. They are at
best a memory or a mind-form. So who is upset? Who is offended? The critic.
They can't accept what they are seeing or hearing.That's the point. And it's
the whole point. In that moment of reactivity they give a community (or anyone
for that matter) a great deal of power to control or affect their state. They
are not happy at that moment. And THAT'S what they should realise. The very
thing that brings people to a Guru. The fact that they aren't happy and they
know it. And they want to feel better or happier. Because they don't feel so
damn good now!!! And for all they know the very people they are criticising
are happy - who knows. One thing is certain however - THE CRITIC IS NOT!!!
Senen
PS By the way Petros have you ever been associated formally in any way
with Adidam? Were you directly offended by someone(s) in the community?
> The so-called "mature"
> > practitioners are merely those who have been more heavily socialized
> > (conditioned) into the accepted norms of the community, the purpose of
> > which is to insulate Jones from any contaminating contact with the
> > outside world (or "unprepared" devotees).
> >
> > >
> > > [snipped for brevity]
>
> Everyone is intitled to their own opinion and so are you!
Senny
Petros, as an ex-formal student I can say
that anyone could and I guess still can
study any of His Works. Like you over the years
I have read all his books, new
and old, and al the old magazines and of course
the legendary garbage and the goddes
and yes there is a distinct movement toward feeling
contemplation of Him, as opposed to His more open discourses.
The reason for this occurred In 1986, in the death
event on the island. One this day His bodily life-signs spontaneously
moved out of the body, and he was clinically dead for some time. A few
moments later He felt HImself re-integrated wtih it in a new manner. He
said that this day was His birthday and that it was a grander day than
the day in the
Vedanta temple. He said that the import of this
Event was the death and dissolution of
the karmic bodies (the subtle and deeper personalities)
or vehicles that allowed Him to do His Teaching-Work. This event marked
His transparency to the Divine Condition. It was from that day on that
he Revealed that anyone who contemplated His human bodily form, His Presence
and State by virtue of the principle you become what you meditate on, that
His Realisation would duplicate itself in the devotee. You could literally
have
thrown all the books out at that point - past,
present and any future books. He said on
another occassion that if devotees had approached
Him in the traditional manner from
the beginning he would never have had to write
a single word or speak a single word.
The traditional manner of initiation and instruction
had always been esoteric. It was Spiritually Transmitted to the devotee.
My confession as I made earlier was of reception
of this Transmission which reveals
everything that is written. I noticed when I
was reading in fact that much of the Knowlege I read in His books He had
already Transmitted and revealed spontaneously
to me through meditation. So I didn't care much
for the changes anyway. I was primarily attracted to Him - not so much
His Teaching - although I did marvel at the fact that a human being could
communicate what He communicated. Having read hundreds of books prior to
coming to Him - his writing was quite unique. However it was His obvious
free, happy, humorous, and fluid bodily qualities that drew me in - it
reflected
everything I was not. So the books are secondary.
he and many other Masters over the years have repeatedly said this. But
because His work was in the west were there was no history or understanding
of devotion he had to write it all for mind entrenched westerners.
I was impressed by Da, but the low level of all of his disciples that
I've met has led me to re-evaluate my judgment.
Again as I wrote in my last communication - Go for
the Guru not His devotees, the
Guru is the Realiser, the devotee is not. Don't
throw out the Chef because they waiters
aren't doing a good job. Stick with the Chef.
Stick with the one you were and have been impressed by - that's what he's
really interested in. And that's a significant response to have read His
work so exhaustively.
Da is best
conceptualized as a helium-filled balloon. He rather looks like one,
actually. There's a smaller balloon for his head and a larger balloon
for his gut -- very appropriately. He consumes his devotees. Have you
ever watched a video from the Dawn Horse press showing him on his little
island in Fiji? There's this big fat guy surrounded by a bunch of very
skinny, nerdy looking guys prostrating themselves before him. Why is
every one on his island skinny and he is the only fat one?
I am serious.
That's an easy one - He's the only one Realised.
The traditional siddha-belly
of True Spirit-Transmitting Masters (as Buddha
is portrayed) always were
huge men. Their bellies were full of Spirit-Force.
It was said that the spiritual
Transmission flowed through the belly. Adi Da
concurs with this confession.
However as yet there are no other Spirit-Transmitters
on the island. The thin body
type more depicts the traditional long-ing sign
of the devotee so in love he forgets
about food. He himself as you wouldknow was quite
thin prior to His Awakening
in '72. Having just spend a day with Rada, the
girl who had been cooking for Him
for the last 4 years, I can tell you (as an outsider
not an insider) that it's not the food.
He generally eats two meals a day. One at lunch
and the other in the evening.
Generally he eats raw. Either a bowl of fruit
or a plate of salad. And sometimes he'll have a cooked meal instead. Every
now and then he will also eat raw fish which is caught on the island. But
this is relatively infrequently and only for protein reasons
- that we know of! He never snacks and sometimes
he won't eat for days or will only
eat one meal a day. So I guess HIs body He really
is Fed by that Love-Bliss.
They come for the promise of Liberation, and get enslavement. He
consumes them.
Whatever is perceived from the outside I can tell
you one thing as an ex-insider.
No-one is there because they don't want to be.
There are no chains. My own time
in the community over the years was a happy and
sometimes wild adventure. It
was always juicy regardless of what it appears
from the 'outside'.
It is not in Da's interest for any of his devotees to become truly Free
(as he claims to be Free, which he might be.) It is in his interest to
reinforce their dependence upon him.
It's actually very much in His interest for others
to be free. It is a rarity for one or
even a few devotees to duplicate the Realisation
of their Master while He is alive.
If devotees spontaneously became Realised left
right and centre consider how many
would enter the 'arena'.
The fact that it's a Real School, with Real disciplines
keeps alot of the spectators at
home with their books and their tv sets - and
that's ok too!
Ramana did not do this. I have spent time at Ramanashram (even in the
very room that Da stayed in during his visit in 1973, the one
constructed by Annamalai Svami.) Nityananda did not do this.
Ramsuratkumar does not do this.
Muktandanda did enslave his followers; and we see that Da has a very
high opinion of Muktananda even though he never followed M's
instructions and willfully misinterpreted M's letter to him (published
in the Knee.)
Muktananda was also profoundly devoted tand one pointed
in his relationship
to Nityananda meditating on his form constantly.
What happened to Da Kalki by the way?
Love Senen
Grrr
<blah blah...>
>>Neither the child nor the adolescent Realises anything that can be called
>>Spiritual, Transcendental or Divine.
Crap!
>>Both characters must grow and mature
>>beyond their inherently limited points of view and limited
>>self-understanding.
crappety crap crap!!!
It'd be nice if people actually understood understanding, before they
threw the term around willy-nilly, pretending that they understand it.
Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
Grrr, the bearded woman.
Grrr
>First Came the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss and then Came
>the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss - Books are for the head.
>
>So yes Judi take heed of your own comments - lose your brain - it's in the
>way of your heart!!!
>
>Books are for the head who has yet has not been awakened to this Tangible
>Force - which is above and beyond the head and at the heart - in my *experience*!!!
Books help build all those good things that allow you to convey
yourself correctly, and which you are apparently lacking here, within
all this incoherent yammering.
If you wish to be just an illiterate fuck, then get your teachings the
fuck off the net, because words are all you are to me and my mind.
If i want love, i'm not about to attach myself to some retarded fuck,
who's just squirming around like a worm, with a big handfuls of high
level noise/info. rant, in order to justify the polite assertions, to
"Please! loose your beliefs, pal" because, frankly, they make you look
like an absolute fuck-stick.
You can keep my kill-file filter "loves" company, and "love" them from
inside there, if you'd prefer.
>> Love Senen
Go bahahaha your empty messages of "love" at the Christians.
And then maybe the Christians can likewise respond, by throwing back
at you *their* retarded definitions of "love" therein rote of
Christi-babble
Grrr
panoptes
Petros wrote:
> Have you ever watched a video from the Dawn Horse press showing him on his
> little
> island in Fiji? There's this big fat guy surrounded by a bunch of very
> skinny, nerdy looking guys prostrating themselves before him. Why is
> every one on his island skinny and he is the only fat one?
>
> I am serious.
>
Oh Puhleeeeze!!! Don't get me started on this one.
Love.
Panoptes: Red Queen 8=3 Aeon of ALice
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/IAI/index.html
Glenn Webb
>
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Anyone know a good exorcist !??? Senen needs help ! Living beings are
only HUMAN. True Spirituality comes from the SPIRIT REALM not from the
physical.
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>
>>
>> > [snip]
>
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><HTML>
>Heart Happy wrote:
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>[snip]
><P>*******
><BR>Da moved the day after I met him to Hawaii. I had many far out
><BR>insightful blissful experiences during my 4 months there at the ashram
><BR>in Clear Lake,
><BR>and I found myself crying and laughing quite a bit, but I was shunned
>by
><BR>the other devotees and they were not very nice to me. I thought that
>it
><BR>would be a place
><BR>of realization and understanding, from reading his books at least,
>but
><BR>it's not.
><BR>A bunch of sheep is what you have there. Now perhaps if he would have
><BR>been there
><BR>with me it might have been a different story, but I left and came back
><BR>to
><BR>Santa Cruz. I thought they were all pretty stupid actually, they all
>had
><BR>blinders on.
><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE>
>Judi your honest post has moved me to write the following:
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Again for the record Bruce my history has some
>similarity to Judi's:</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Seven years ago I was a young and new devotee
>and I was sensitive to, felt and</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">was receiving Adi Da's Spiritual Transmission
>right from the beginning.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">After a couple of years I was a part of a 6th
>stage practise consideration. He</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">and the Kanyas invited responses from around
>the world from anyone who truly and seriously wanted this Direct relationship
>to Him and were willing to give up everything for the purpose of God-Realisation
>and enter into the 6th stage practise. He invited the confessions of devotees
>directly to Him. The 'mature' practitioners of the community (about 8 practitioners)
>in Melbourne Australia had a consideration with me about this. All of them
>said it was ridiculous that I send through my confession and intention.
>That I had only been around a few years and that it would be offensive
>to Him to send it across. All refused to support my direct communication
>with Him. I remember saying to a devotee, (immediately after he very righteously
>said he would not support it, and that it shouldn't happen) that if Adi
>Da really wants to receive my confession He will find a way for me
>to get it to Him regardless of what you think or say. Well needless to
>say Mysteriously 12 hours later a communication went through to the world
>gathering saying that He wanted to receive ALL confessions and that no
>'insiders' should be allowed to block or censor any communication.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">I then duly sent Him my confession. He didn't
>respond directly, however within a few days a process began in me. I felt
>unusually feverish while at a Christmas break-up and felt that if I didn't
>get home soon I would pass out.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">I managed to drive home, my body getting hotter
>and hotter and energy wildly entering my body from above and swirling through
>me like a raging river. I stopped at a petrol station and bought a 1 litre
>bottle of apple and black current juice just before getting home.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">As soon as I walked in the door all the energy
>that was animating my body slowly began moving out of my body. A stumbled
>to my bedroom where I collapsed on the futon mattress that served as my
>bed at the time. My body was so weak and limp that I could hardly raise
>my hand any higher than 5 inches. The fever that continued raging through
>my head and my body was almost unbearable. I couldn't get up. I couldn't
>escape. I had no phone. I was living alone at the time. I was in
>a secure apartment that was as protected as Fort Knox 9(sp?). And I had
>not enough energy to get up and call for help. And furthermore my cell/mobile
>phone had just died and I had left my battery charger (uncharacteristically)
>at work. I was Forced to endure it. I felt I was going to die.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">For the next 3 days this raging fever persisted.
>My body was pulsating like a wild and out of control vibrator . I had no
>food at home. I had spontaneously been moved to adopt a fruitarian diet
>over the previous 6 months and the purchase of food was a daily event I
>had strangely bypassed on this day. All I had was my 1 litre bottle of
>apple and black current juice to sustain my lifeless body for the next
>6 days. On the 2nd day (Saturday) I was able crawl to the bathroom to dampen
>a towel so that I could cool my burning face and forehead. As soon as I
>got back to my bed however, all energy I had to crawl to the bathroom had
>left me - again I was paralyzed. The process continued.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">All the while the only thing I could remember
>were Adi Da's words.... "The time of your greatest suffering and greatest
>disturbance are the most important times to turn your attention to me,
>they are the greatest opportunities for purification". I had a copy of
>one of His books beside me. The book had His photo on the cover, so as
>much as I could I would grant attention to His Form rather than to my body,
>my sensations or my mind.</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">In the pst such turning of my attention immediately
>dissolves any limitation i was experiencing, however on this occasion I
>was not conscious of such dissolution. The only dissolution that seems
>to me going on was the dissolution of the one I referred to as me.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Each night I would get a few hours sleep before
>waking to the same torment. This persisted for a further 3 days. On the
>Fifth day one of the guys I worked with managed to bypass the security
>entrance and sneaked into the apartment complex by pretending to be a tenant
>while another actual tenant was opening the security door. It was so uncharacteristic
>of me not to call work on a day off (especially 2 days in a row) that they
>sent someone to my apartment to make sure I was ok. I initially heard the
>buzzer but I still had no energy to get up. When he began knocking on the
>door I remember feeling a sense of relief that help had finally arrived.
>However as soon as he knocked my voice box stopped functioning. I couldn't
>believe it. I couldn't speak to let him know that I was inside and I didn't
>have enough energy to lift my arm and throw something to make a noise.
>It was like a movie scene. He left, and I was stuck there for another day.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">On the seventh day I woke up and it was as if
>nothing had ever happened. There were no signs of deterioration whatsoever.
>In fact I felt better than I had in my whole life - and one thing
>was entirely different. I wasn't thinking anymore. The Descending Force
>I had felt while contemplating Adi Da all the moments and years previously
>was my now my constant Companion. It was there from the moment I woke up
>to the moment I went to sleep. I no longer had to seek or find it to locate
>it. And from that day on I no longer had the experience of thinking. Sometimes
>(although very rarely) memories would spontaneously arise, however my relationship
>to them was radically different. Whereas</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">before they were *my* memories, now they were
>as impersonal as seagulls flying by in</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">the distance. I Knew (prior to mind) that Adi
>Da had spontaneously Initiated me into the 6th stage practise. The practise
>where thinking or mind is utterly transcended.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Soon after that I spontaneously left the community.
>In fact I didn't leave as such, the 3 of us that were living in the same
>household all moved out within a couple of weeks.</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">I moved to an apartment on my own and no-one
>from the community bothered to contact me and I didn't bother contacting
>the community. Some time later those I recommenced contact with those I
>was intimate with. And and like Judi every now and then I had the feeling
>that they didn't care etc. It was some time before I understood what I
>previously could not comprehend. Like Judi I felt angry toward the community
>and was very critical and righteous towards many within the community.
>However I never withdrew from my practise. I never withdrew from Adi Da.
>And He never withdrew from me. And it was quite a process before I 'saw'
>that I was dramatising the very thing I was criticising in the community.
>I was dramatising un-Love. It had nothing to do with them and everything
>to do with me. I wanted them to contact me, love me, to give me attention.
>However I also noticed that in every moment that I did this I was not giving
>my feeling-attention to Adi Da's Form or His Descending Force which had
>remained as my constant Companion and Resort. This revelation was given
>to me because I didn't recoil from Adi Da. Someone said to me once "Go
>for the Guru not the devotee" and I</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">never forgot this no matter how critical I became
>of the community.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">I knew I had to leave the community, drop all
>the formal practises and disciplines that I had embraced wholeheartedly
>over the years. I had to learn to simply resort one-pointedly to this Descending
>Force and Presence. And I had to do it in the world, without support. In
>the cut and thrust of business - not in an ashram or a monestry. The stallions
>energies had been harnessed and it was time to let him loose. I knew
>that in every moment of reaction to any and every devotee, that I
>was actually simultaneously recoiling or contracting from Adi Da and this
>Descending Force that obliterated all lovelessness, all need, all desiring,
>or all that is un-Love. It seems crazy now that I look back that it was
>even possible to make such a choice, however Adi Da is right... the act
>of egoity is incomprehensible and the ego is a formidable opponent for
>the Divine.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">I have not formally reassociated with the community
>because my life since then has been what I had always wanted it to be -
>a spontaneous and effortless, undisturbed moment to moment
>existence. I still love everyone in the community and can see them all
>in a radically new light. Much has been revealed about the character of
>Narcissus and it is</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">clear to me that the process is not absolutely
>complete.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Last year I moved to another state only to find
>strangers who when I introduced them to Adi Da's videos spontaneously had
>a response to him. And so I now live in a co-operative household with others
>who are not formally associated but have a strong response to Adi Da. I
>still advocate and Love him profoundly. He is very Real to me as a Force
>and a Presence, and His bodily Form still has the same effect when I contemplate
>or see it. It is obvious now more than ever before (since He no longer
>Teaches or Speaks) that His Manifestation and Sign is more Force-full and
>Obvious</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">than it ever has. And all of this without ever
>having set foot in front of His physical form. I Know He was the Source
>of this Transformation, and my desperate longing to see Him physically
>likewise vanished in that Event. He gave me the Gift I most wanted - the
>direct relationship to Him as He Is.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Maybe one day I'll see Him physically and maybe
>one day I'll reassociate formally - I don't know, however one thing is
>certain, the absence of that which moved me to associate to begin
>with has been Filled. I was re-Awakened to what I was seeking.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">And I understand that you have to do what you
>have to do - all I proffer is not to</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">relinquish the Gift too hastily - It is available
>to us - regardless! And re-consider the re-directed blame. That's all my
>friend. No zealot left here. Just an ingredient to throw</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">into the pot - freely take it out and throw it
>away if you wish.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Be tolerant of my Fun and Games in the meantime
>- It really is all</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">meaningless Play for me now.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">My Love to you Judi,</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Senen</FONT>
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
><BR>> [snip]</BLOCKQUOTE>
></HTML>
>
>--------------23735EA8F8D7F4857DB9F205--
>
jo...@ix.netcom.com
Mother is one crazy Mutha and enlightened beings come in
all shapes and sizes.
Mother has created a vortex of Shakti out on that island
in Fiji. All these "lost" souls are getting sucked up
into it. Whether they get "found" or not isn't the issue.
Shakti manifests out of the sheer delight of it. The
circus that is Adi Da is a manifestation of Shakti, one
in which he has no control over. He set the thing going
and now it's swallowed him up.
Proclaiming himself as the world teacher is just another
step in the escalation of that circus. Do *I* think he's
*the* world teacher? Absolutely not, for the concept is
baloney. Will he be accepted as such by the world at
large? Don't count on it. About 99% of the world
population has never heard of him, and of those who
have, I'm sure at least 3/4 think he's nuts.
Will his failure to manifest himself as the "world
teacher" be proof of his lack of realization? No way.
He's just a guy out on a limb he's gonna fall off of.
Fortunately for him he's got dozens of devotees waiting
under the branch, so when he falls he'll have a soft
landing.
Jai Ma Kali in the form of crazy gurus! --jodyr.
Senny
opening statement ...Grrr....needless to say and I'm sure much to your rebellious refusal I hung up the phone. Your teenage transparency is so god damn obvious - stick to Melrose Place or Ricky Lake - they'll respond to and take any bullshit
seriously!!!!
Nothing follows from hear....When you hang up the phone you don't have
to listen
to the rest of the message
rd your heavy breathing and the smelly hot hair
Senny
Glenn Webb wrote:
As if the Christian prospects don't have enough reasons NOT to be associated with christianity!!!Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>
>>Ahh yes and in come the Jeezus-Worshipping compatriots to the resue... The only thing more enjoyable than confessing one's actual experience and process is the Up-Roarious Laughter that Is Perpetually Induced when Adolescent Reactive-Party
Graduates such as thee Demonstrates clear Signs of Most-Profound
Slight-To-Major rec-T-um-Swelling Feeling-Contemplation of one's own
Hemorrhoids??? My Friend may you revel in the Knowledge that responses
such as thou is provided as source-text material for Ascetically-tendencied Monastic-De-Conditioning monks who in their righteousness and tendency toward ascended meditation (not being able to deal with lunch) have lost the plot and in so doing can only find temporaty humour through counter-critical crap infested squabble. You are in much need of hysteria-Invoking (or Dried-up and Seriousness-Transcending) counter-egoic feeling Contem-Giggling. Do keep it coming My Friend, I can hear the echoes of the chuckles coming from the Rectum-T-Me Pavilion.
Your babble-filled hog-wash has been passed on
to the anti-christian missionary movement to add to the many reasons why
not to be associated with the ideas that are
perpetuated by failed bible-study dropouts andmystical-movie-goers
still stuck in the pit of their own nervous system.
Senen
Senny
Grrr wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 1999 11:29:59 +1000, Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:>First Came the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss and then Came
>the Tangible Undeniable Transmission of Love-Bliss - Books are for the head.
>
>So yes Judi take heed of your own comments - lose your brain - it's in the
>way of your heart!!!
>
>Books are for the head who has yet has not been awakened to this Tangible
>Force - which is above and beyond the head and at the heart - in my *experience*!!!Books help build all those good things that allow you to convey
yourself correctly, and which you are apparently lacking here, within
all this incoherent yammering.
Books aren't needed to confess personal experience...however
if you don't
have any then your left with all your books,
your bible, your porno-magazines
(and your tissues) your magazines and everything
else you need to justify and
defend yourself because you have nothing to speak
of yourself.
If you wish to be just an illiterate fuck, then get your teachings the
fuck off the net, because
Only the student views a communication as a teaching
so thanks for the
compliment. But you're not up to the task so
you disqualify as a potential
student.
words are all you are to me and my mind.
Oh Ree-hee-ally!!! Have another look at your choice
of words, I seem
to have had a Profound effect on you and your
friend 'mind' you both
seem to have gotten quite worked up by the looks
of it. I see the reactive
and fervor-Filled responses to my communications
as signs of my Most-Potent
Spiritual Transmission, constantly Shining on
the darkness of others who
in the reactive Sun-Burnt Mood get uptight and
must respond to Me. This
is a Most Profound and Auspicious Sign for Me.
A time of Great Celebration.
The Bell rings and rings with tones of success
every time a little fish like you
takes my bait.
If i want love, i'm not about to attach myself to some retarded fuck,
You are already attached to a retarded fuck - your
mind IS a retarded
fuck. It is your fuck-friend. Grr and his teddy
bear mind. How are the two
of you any way? Sometimes you get angry with
it and other times you want
to fuck it don't you? Ahhh and that's where all
the trouble begins doesn't it
my friend because you cant find the hole. Or
you can't find the cock whichever
it is for thee? That's when you get reee-heeee-aaaallly
angry isn't it???
Wake up my friend - there isn't anyone else there
other than yourself.
And the void that is me is far too wide for your
little twinky and my 'member'
would obliterate your walls of body and mind!!!
The conversation you are
having with your illusory fuck-friend IS your
illusion.
Step aside Superman - who needs X-Ray vision
when the likes of you are so transparent!!!!!!!!!
who's just squirming around like a worm, with a big handfuls of high
level noise/info. rant, in order to justify the polite assertions, to
"Please! loose your beliefs, pal" because, frankly, they make you look
like an absolute fuck-stick.
You can keep my kill-file filter "loves" company, and "love" them from
inside there, if you'd prefer.
Ahh yes, Oh Jeezus-Worshipping compatriot...
The only thing more enjoyable
than Communicating one's process and experience
is the Up-Roarious
Laughter that Is Perpetually Induced when an
Adolescent Reactive-Party
Graduate such as thee Demonstrates clear Signs
of Most-Profound
Slight-To-Major (in this case Major) rec-T-um-Swelling
Feeling-Contemplation
of one's own Hemorrhoids??? My Friend May you
revel in the Knowledge that
responses such as thou hast provided are passed
on as Source-Texts to Ascetically-tendencied Monastic-De-Conditioning Monks
who are in much need
of hysteria-Invoking (or Dried-up and Seriousness-Transcending)
counter-egoic
feeling Contem-Giggling. Do keep it coming My Friend, for I can hear the chuckling echoes coming from the Rectum-T-Me Pavilion.
Echoed and overhead from the ascetics at Rectum-T-Me
Pavilion after reading this post:
Monk1:Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Haaah... See how angry
and dried up this guy is, he's like you!
Monk2:Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Haaah... Stop it old man
you've interrupted my tapas of silence!
Monk3:Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Haaaah... And I thought
I was a righteous little fart Haaaaaah!
Great Love to you my Friend - Senen
Senny
Grrr wrote:
>>Neither the child nor the adolescent Realises anything that can be called
>>Spiritual, Transcendental or Divine.Crap!
>>Both characters must grow and mature
>>beyond their inherently limited points of view and limited
>>self-understanding.crappety crap crap!!!
Extracted for your perusal - An Except Quoted
Verbatim from - the May '99 Issue
(No.36) of GuruWorld Magazine:
"One of the hottest topics this week from our
Usenet research team into Real Spiritual Transmission and the effect of
Real Spirit-Tranmitters through the Vehicle of the
Internet comes from our feedback in relation
to the Spirit-Transmitter known as Senen.
His method of placing contraversial posts and
responses that the reader can only respond to by confirming his actual
communication is perhaps the most Masterful self-Reflecting Method or Tool,
themselves that I have ever seen demonstrated on the Newgroup circuit.
Not only has it drawn all the would-be-Realisers out of the closet, but
It has Masterfully demonstrated His Transmission and ability to Stir the
Pot of egoity beyond compare.
What He has Demonstrated by this Communication is the inability of the reader to respond in any other way than his discourse has confirmed ie - abuse, sarcasm, criticism or righteous denial. All of which are auspicious Signn of His Transmission at Work in the lives of mind-based, or computer-bound seekers.
Through this Work he has been able to Receive,
Work with and Purify the conditional energies of all those who responded
directly and all those who through their non-reponse likewise were purified.
His constant ability to accept and embrace the egoic force of anger, rage
and verbal abuse Knows no bounds - He is the Pure Demonstration of Love
Itself. Full of many Humorous exchanges, Force-full communications - but
Never Changed. A Remarkable Being and clearly one who has Grasped the Message
of Avatar Adi Da Samraj when he said that "the act of Loving or persisting
as free feeling energy and attention or Love Is the sign of Real Spiritual
life - not mystical visions, or higher worlds or lights or sounds or the
quoting of other Works and Teachers. What is more fascinating is the fact
that no-one as yet has been able to confirm or deny His communications
IN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE - Hence all that is mind or non-Realisation responds
instead.
A truly masterful being. It is obvious why world
leaders, and hollywood stars have gone out of their way to seek Him out
and Get His Instruction - a fascinating man."
In the meantime weor freflecting
and points of view that really cin our
It'd be nice if people actually understood understanding, before they
threw the term around willy-nilly, pretending that they understand it.Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
Then step out of the ring and start one!!!!!
Grrr, the bearded woman.
Love Senen - the Clean-shaven Light!
Randy
>other paths are false. Truth is a multi-colored thing, like the blind
>men and the elephant. I think the essence of cooperation & tolerance
>demands respect & appreciation for difference.
I'm in 100% agreement with what you are saying here. My attempt to advocate
Bhagavan Adi Da is NOT to say that other paths are false, but to emphize
that there is a LIVING God Man on the planet offering a direct spiritual
relationship to any and all who are interested - this is Good News to me!!
To any who are willing to pursue this with an open mind, I would make myself
fully available to help with their consideration.
Blessings,
Randy
>BTW, Randy, thanks for posting http://peace.adidam.org/EssayEntry.htm
>here recently. The message is _very_ important, inspiring, and I'm in
>near full agreement.
I'd be interested in hearing more about the "near full" part !
Roger Isaacs wrote in message <7i3ut2$vir$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <7i26qc$r4s$1...@remarQ.com>,
> "Randy" <ra...@worksoft.com> wrote:
>> Of all the people (besides Senen and myself) who have posted to this
>thread,
>> Judi (Heart Happy) is the only one I know who has actually seen
>Bhagavan Adi
>> Da Samraj in Person. Am I correct in this assumption? It has been
>said
>> that "one minute spent in the Company of a Buddha is worth a lifetime
>of
>> spiritual effort". Judi, I don't recall if you ever told me why you
>left
>> the Way of the Heart, but it seemed like it had something to do with
>not
>> wanting to be part of a group (ANY group). Is that correct? But to
>anyone
>> else, I would just ask if you have examined Adi Da's Teaching with an
>open
>> mind, or have you just listened to what the critics and naysayers
>have to
>> say? Are you against the Guru tradition altogether, or just Sri Adi
>Da?
>>
>> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my own experience and
>> understanding of the Truth of Adi Da's Teaching
>
>Because Adi's teaching is true, and I believe it is, does not mean that
>other paths are false. Truth is a multi-colored thing, like the blind
>men and the elephant. I think the essence of cooperation & tolerance
>demands respect & appreciation for difference.
>
>> and Company have been
>> developed over many years and is not some gleeful bhatka's
>enthusiasm. I've
>> tested it in my own life and have seen the Truth of it demonstrated
>over and
>> over again, without fail. But the Acid Test is this: are you Happy?
>Really
>> and truly, regardless of what may seem to be happening in your life
>at any
>> given moment? If not, check out the Teaching with an open mind and
>open
>> heart. Your misery will be cheerfully refunded if not fully
>satisfied!.
>> Rather than participate in a debate with people who would like to
>criticize
>> Adi Da (and whomever else), I would just like to have a conversation
>with
>> anyone who is interested in examining the Teaching over against
>whatever he
>> or she has learned or been taught in the past. I guarantee it will
>be an
>> heart-opening experience!
>>
>> Love to all,
>> Randy
>
>BTW, Randy, thanks for posting http://peace.adidam.org/EssayEntry.htm
>here recently. The message is _very_ important, inspiring, and I'm in
>near full agreement.
>
>Roger
>www.newu.org
>
>
Bruce Morgen
>>Because Adi's teaching is true, and I believe it is, does not mean that
>>other paths are false. Truth is a multi-colored thing, like the blind
>>men and the elephant. I think the essence of cooperation & tolerance
>>demands respect & appreciation for difference.
>
>I'm in 100% agreement with what you are saying here. My attempt to advocate
>Bhagavan Adi Da is NOT to say that other paths are false,
Good start, Randy.
>but to emphize
Not that it really matters,
but is everyone taken with
Da spelling-impaired? :-)
>that there is a LIVING God Man on the planet offering a direct spiritual
>relationship to any and all who are interested - this is Good News to me!!
If one's personal nature is
devotional and includes a
propensity toward Sat Guru
Bhakti, perhaps this is very
"Good News" -- but even the
radiant natural bhakta would
do well to examine not only
the words of the purported
"Master" (which in the case
of Da have been unique and
superlative for decades) but
also the "flavor" of the
organization surrounding the
"Master" and the discourse
and presence of his/her
(formal or otherwise) chelas.
After all, "By their fruits
ye shall know them," right?
>To any who are willing to pursue this with an open mind, I would make myself
>fully available to help with their consideration.
>
Generous of you, Randy!
>Blessings,
>Randy
>
>>BTW, Randy, thanks for posting http://peace.adidam.org/EssayEntry.htm
>>here recently. The message is _very_ important, inspiring, and I'm in
>>near full agreement.
>
>I'd be interested in hearing more about the "near full" part !
>
:-)
The Authentic Maitreya Rik
This loony bin is residing on Naitauba Island!.
Amazing...
Seems like the Fiji Police have yet to find out the fathoms of Adi Da!.
jo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
: The example of Adi Da shows us what we should already know.
Grrr
>Glenn Webb wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 21 May 1999 19:48:06 +1000, Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
>> >Maybe one day I'll see Him physically and maybe one day I'll reassociate formally
>> >- I don't know, however one thing is certain, the absence of that which moved me
>> >to associate to begin with has been Filled. I was re-Awakened to what I was
>> >seeking.
The Maitreya, by any other name, would still smell like a freak.
>> >Senen
>>
>> Anyone know a good exorcist !??? Senen needs help ! Living beings are
>> only HUMAN. True Spirituality comes from the SPIRIT REALM not from the
>> physical.
Good question!!
Yeah! Does anybody know the number of a good exorcist?
I was wondering if they delivered, or is it all drive thru these days?
Because *i* keep thinking that jesus is inside of me.
I was at the local library a while ago, and I found this reference
manual called the bible.
But all it indicated to me is that, as jesus, I should be able to
perform some very magical stunts, minus the safety harness.
Whereas I cannot do these forms of trickery.
>> Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>> >
>> >>Ahh yes and in come the Jeezus-Worshipping compatriots to the resue... The only thing more enjoyable than
>> confessing one's actual experience and process is the Up-Roarious Laughter that Is Perpetually Induced when
>> Adolescent Reactive-Party
>> Graduates such as thee Demonstrates clear Signs of Most-Profound
>> Slight-To-Major rec-T-um-Swelling Feeling-Contemplation of one's own
>> Hemorrhoids??? My Friend may you revel in the Knowledge that responses
>> such as thou is provided as source-text material for Ascetically-tendencied Monastic-De-Conditioning monks who in
>> their righteousness and tendency toward ascended meditation (not being able to deal with lunch) have lost the
>> plot and in so doing can only find temporaty humour through counter-critical crap infested squabble. You are in
>> much need of hysteria-Invoking (or Dried-up and Seriousness-Transcending) counter-egoic feeling Contem-Giggling.
>> Do keep it coming My Friend, I can hear the echoes of the chuckles coming from the Rectum-T-Me Pavilion.
The learned Fool writes his nonsense in better language,
but 'tis still nonsense. Although, i'm in doubt as to whether all your
rambly nonsense even counts as a language!
It's simply what *i* would call "going through a dictionary, choosing
a handful of big words, and threading them all together into this big
messed up body of incoherent crap!"
>As if the Christian prospects don't have enough reasons NOT to be associated with christianity!!!
>
>Your babble-filled hog-wash has been passed on to the anti-christian missionary movement to add to the many reasons
>why not to be associated with the ideas that are
>perpetuated by failed bible-study dropouts and mystical-movie-goers stuck still stuck in the pit of their own
>nervous system.
>
>Senen
What silly git you are!
Go run off and play with your little dollies...
There is an old saying that if a million monkeys typed
on a million keyboards for a million years, eventually
all the works of Shakespeare would be produced. Now,
thanks to USENET, we know this is not true."
Elizabeth J. Jelich-Griffin
>
> Neither the child nor the adolescent Realises anything that can be
> called Spiritual, Transcendental or Divine.
I beg to differ. You haven't met my 8 yr. old yet, or you wouldn't
believe this.
This is the child who already observes his own life "like watching a
movie".
Who inspires me to acts of compassion.
He may not have the vocabulary to indicate he has had "spiritual"
experiences, but it doesn't mean he never "Realizes".
love,
Beth
Roger Isaacs
> >> >I have great reverence for Jesus, however the havoc caused by his
> >> >followers is unparalleled in human history. ( a favorite book 'The
> >Dark
> >> >Side of Christian History' )
> >> Yup, quite amazing, and
I appreciate your comment about Paul above. I'll bet his personality,
his particular qualities & limitations, left their impression on the
Christian religion.
I believe Paul was killed eventually by the Romans perhaps because he
'thought differently' (one who 'thinks differently from the majority'
is a "heretic", the literal meaning of the word ). Later the Romans
adopted Christianity and continued to murder those who they considered
heretics, but this time in the name of Christianity. The Church
continued this policy of extermination for centuries. In fact, even in
the earlier part of this century a Pope expounded on the need for the
Church to wield the death penalty.
Today this human impulse to resist those who are different appears
undiminished.
Here's a link to a Gospel of Thomas site:
http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
So of the sayings I find deeply inspiring, others I have no idea what
the intent was. A couple of my favorite:
"3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's)
kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If
they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.
Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you."
and:
"52 His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets have spoken in
Israel, and they all spoke of you."
He said to them, "You have disregarded the living one who is in your
presence, and have spoken of the dead.""
By "in your presence" he is not refering to himself but rather to the
prophet within each of us?
I've heard there were many different Gospels. Apparently some sort of
committee determined which Gospels were to be canonized. Those writings
that furthered the agenda of the committee were accepted, and then, all
other writings were destroyed.
The Gospel of Thomas inspires geat empowerment of the individual ( as
in the quotes above ). The Church seems to have been most interested in
advancing it's own authority. So I can easily imagine how Thomas would
appear as a threat.
< snip >
> >Christ to me is the most extraordinary example of the potential
> >latent
> >in the human form.
>
> I'm not sure about the
> "most," but the word
> "extraordinary" is
> certainly warranted.
Yes, my use of the word "most" might be an attempt to placate the
majority. However, some ( such as Rudolph Steiner ) suggest that Christ
was not just another Guru. That he played, and perhaps continues to
play, a unique pivotal role in human evolution.
< snip >
> >Doesn't
> >"faith" ultimately mean "faith in oneself"?
>
> I'd say faith in the
> spiritual sense is the
> abdication of will --
> "Not my will, but Thine,"
> with "Thine" defined
> experientially rather
> accepted via dogma.
>
> >Faith in anything
> >external will always be disappointed.
> >
> Faith tainted with
> expectation is just
> ambition in "holy" robes.
> Faith in the sense of
> surrender can never "be
> disappointed."
Christians worship the the Bible as the "word" of god. But love is only
potent as a living reality. As a mere "word" held in esteem "love" is
powerless.
Bruce Morgen
> edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 May 1999 19:43:45 GMT Roger Isaacs <RIs...@cqg.com>
>writes:
><snip>
>> >> >I have great reverence for Jesus, however the havoc caused by his
>> >> >followers is unparalleled in human history. ( a favorite book 'The
>> >Dark
>> >> >Side of Christian History' )
>
>I appreciate your comment about Paul above. I'll bet his personality,
>his particular qualities & limitations, left their impression on the
>Christian religion.
>
That may be the understatement
of the last two millennia.
>I believe Paul was killed eventually by the Romans perhaps because he
>'thought differently' (one who 'thinks differently from the majority'
>is a "heretic", the literal meaning of the word ).
Paul's evangelistic zeal
brought his notion of
Christianity to Italy itself,
Rome's home turf. Although
Greco-Roman "God-Fearers"
(Judaism-influenced
monotheists) were already
numerous among Roman citizens,
Paul's activity in Italy
represented a direct (and
therefore politically
significant) challenge to
Rome's state religion
(essentially a Latinized
Olympian panthenon plus
the new notion of Emperor
divinity) that could not be
ignored.
>Later the Romans
>adopted Christianity and continued to murder those who they considered
>heretics, but this time in the name of Christianity.
Yes, at that point
Christianity had become
Rome's state religion.
>The Church
>continued this policy of extermination for centuries. In fact, even in
>the earlier part of this century a Pope expounded on the need for the
>Church to wield the death penalty.
>
Interesting.
>Today this human impulse to resist those who are different appears
>undiminished.
>
Yes, if a minority appears
to be small or weak enough,
it's generally persecuted
by the majority in one way
or another.
>Here's a link to a Gospel of Thomas site:
>http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
>
>So of the sayings I find deeply inspiring, others I have no idea what
>the intent was. A couple of my favorite:
>
>"3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's)
>kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If
>they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.
>Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you."
>
>and:
>
>"52 His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets have spoken in
>Israel, and they all spoke of you."
>He said to them, "You have disregarded the living one who is in your
>presence, and have spoken of the dead.""
>
>By "in your presence" he is not refering to himself but rather to the
>prophet within each of us?
>
Could be!
>I've heard there were many different Gospels. Apparently some sort of
>committee determined which Gospels were to be canonized. Those writings
>that furthered the agenda of the committee were accepted, and then, all
>other writings were destroyed.
>
Yes, some estimates have
as many as 60 books
discarded or destroyed
for every one adopted as
"official."
>The Gospel of Thomas inspires geat empowerment of the individual ( as
>in the quotes above ). The Church seems to have been most interested in
>advancing it's own authority. So I can easily imagine how Thomas would
>appear as a threat.
>
Agreed.
>< snip >
>> >Christ to me is the most extraordinary example of the potential
>> >latent
>> >in the human form.
>>
>> I'm not sure about the
>> "most," but the word
>> "extraordinary" is
>> certainly warranted.
>
>Yes, my use of the word "most" might be an attempt to placate the
>majority. However, some ( such as Rudolph Steiner ) suggest that Christ
>was not just another Guru. That he played, and perhaps continues to
>play, a unique pivotal role in human evolution.
>
Well, Christianity has
certainly been a huge
influence on history,
I'm not sure about any
"evolution." Like other
authentic truthful ones,
my sense is that
vanishingly few people
(imo including his own
disciples) really
understood what the
historical Jesus was
pointing toward.
>< snip >
>> >Doesn't
>> >"faith" ultimately mean "faith in oneself"?
>>
>> I'd say faith in the
>> spiritual sense is the
>> abdication of will --
>> "Not my will, but Thine,"
>> with "Thine" defined
>> experientially rather
>> accepted via dogma.
>>
>> >Faith in anything
>> >external will always be disappointed.
>> >
>> Faith tainted with
>> expectation is just
>> ambition in "holy" robes.
>> Faith in the sense of
>> surrender can never "be
>> disappointed."
>
>Christians worship the the Bible as the "word" of god. But love is only
>potent as a living reality. As a mere "word" held in esteem "love" is
>powerless.
>
Yes, especially of the
word is taken in its
common, consensus
definition. Obviously
the literal worship of a
book is pure idolatry.
>Roger
>www.newu.org
>
Thanks, Roger
Roger Isaacs
> >Because Adi's teaching is true, and I believe it is, does not mean
that
> >other paths are false. Truth is a multi-colored thing, like the blind
> >men and the elephant. I think the essence of cooperation & tolerance
> >demands respect & appreciation for difference.
>
> I'm in 100% agreement with what you are saying here. My attempt to
advocate
emphize
> that there is a LIVING God Man on the planet offering a direct
spiritual
> relationship to any and all who are interested - this is Good News to
me!!
myself
> fully available to help with their consideration.
>
> Randy
>
> >BTW, Randy, thanks for posting http://peace.adidam.org/EssayEntry.htm
> >here recently. The message is _very_ important, inspiring, and I'm in
> >near full agreement.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing more about the "near full" part !
Oops, I had the link wrong it's actually:
http://peace.adidam.org/OpenL.htm
So I said "in near full agreement": I found nothing to disagree with in
the letter. I'm not political, so the section on the UN is sort of
outside my sphere of passion. At this momment in time it seems highly
unlikely for the most powerful nations in the world to submit their
actions for group approval. And yet Adi Da's leadership sounds
reasonable on this point.
"in *near* full agreement" also indicates a desire to remain
independent and open to other creative possibilities and perspectives.
Progress at the level of the UN is laudable but distant. On the
personal level opportunities for tolerance & cooperation abound daily?
Governments are just an extension of the people. Perhaps bringing
tolerance & cooperation into our personal lives is the foundation.
Haizen Paige
<quote on>
>One year earlier I had meet another enlightened teacher known to the
world as >Jiddu Krishnamurti. Krishnamurti could barely give a coherent
lecture and constantly scolded his audience by refering to their "shoddy
little minds".
Comment: "Barely give a coherent lecture?" I have never felt that way.
What he was attempting to do was express the inexpressible in words, but
the words were not the thing.
>I loved his frankness and his words were true,
His words were true... but you didn't really work with them.
>... but his subtly cantankerous nature was not very helpful in
transferring his knowledge to others.
Krishnamurti wasn't speaking to comfort the listeners; he was there to
strip off the veil that stood between the listener and reality. Surely
there's room in the world for a teacher who's serious, who points out
the work involved that's necessary go beyond the conditioning of our
"shoddy little minds." The human mind IS shoddy -- and K was pointing
out what was beyond it.
>Listening to Krishnamurti speak was like eating a sandwich made of
bread and sand.
Only if one dislikes a bare bones, stripped down language, void of
puffery, void of illusion, spiritual jargon and pretense. That's exactly
what I found refreshing about him.
>I found the best way to enjoy his talks
Krishnamurti's talks were not design to be an entertainment. He said so
many times over the years. One must delve deeply into what he was saying
before the insights are revealed.
>was to completely ignore his words and just quietly absorb his
presence.
This may have value, but without the inner labor necessary to observe
and free oneself, it never lasts.
>Using that technique
K was doing what he could to talk people beyond techniques. He felt that
relying on techniques had no value to free the mind. You missed the
point of his teaching approach.
>I would often become so expanded after a lecture that I could barely
talk for hours afterwards.
You would "float," in other words. What value is floating?
>J. Krishnamurti, while fully enlightened and uniquely lovable, will be
recorded in history as a teacher with very poor verbal communication
skills.
K will be remembered in history for having one of the most remarkable
lives of this century. He took on the real cause of the world's
suffering -- the human mind, human consciousness itself. He was a
revolutionary of the greatest kind. No one else did more, because he
didn't rely on belief systems at all. He never felt they were necessary,
and this is why his organization never became a cult.
>Unlike the highly eloquent Rajneesh, however, Krishnamurti never
committed any crime, never pretended to be more than he was, and never
used other human beings selfishly.
<end quote>
There's nothing hard to understand about the following Krishnamurti
statements, other than living these truths:
"I am only acting as a mirror to your life, in which you can see
yourself as you are; then you can throw away the mirror; the mirror is
not important."
"In oneself lies the whole world, and if you know how to look and learn,
then the door is there and the key is in your hand. Nobody on earth can
give you either that key or the door to open, except yourself."
"If one really wants to find out about God, what God is, whether there
is such a thing, something which is not nameable -- if that is the main
interest of your life -- that very interest does bring order. This means
that to find that reality one must live differently, deeply differently.
There must be austerity without hardness, there must be tremendous love.
And love cannot exist if there is fear, or if the mind is pursuing
pleasure. So to find that reality one must understand oneself."
I recommend the teachings of Krishnamurti to everyone. He is the least
intrusive, but most profound of any teacher I've ever come across. But
he is very demanding of one's own efforts, so one must be prepared for
this. One of his main teachings is that one simply can't believe in
order to find God. One must do the inner labor to strip off what stands
in the way.
Haizen Paige
Bruce Morgen
>>Bruce Morgen wrote in his Osho essay:
>
No, Bruce Morgen did not
write any such thing --
Christopher Calder is
the author. For the
record, I disagree with
the negative aspects of
Christopher's views on
J. Krishnamurti and
found Krishnamurti's
writings to be very
insightful and useful at
a crucial time of my
life.
Petros
talking "around" the point and never really hitting it. That is to say,
I've found that teachers like Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj
-- both of whom are rather like K in their rejection of forms and
techniques -- make a lot more sense to me in transcriptions of their
words. But I have persisted with Krishnaji over the years, just kept
reading his dialogues and listening to him, and I find that he *is*
getting to something, but it is very, very subtle. He is difficult for
many people because it doesn't seem that he is using any specialized,
technical vocabulary. But in fact, he does use common everyday words in
a very specific sense. I can't summarize it off the cuff right now, but
it is important for anyone interested in K to read as many of his
transcribed dialogues as possible. The repetition of concepts and
emphases that one encounters will make what he is saying much clearer.
It should also be remembered that many of his books are in fact
dialogues, as I said. The 'teaching' grows out of the context in which
certain questions are asked.
That said, I do have a 'problem' with K. He does seem to talk a lot
about "conflict" and division, pettiness and shoddiness and all that,
and I find myself wondering who specifically he thinks he is addressing.
He always speaks in the first person, i.e. "I am in conflict, I am
divided," etc., and it is understood that this "I" is simply a
convenience or manner of speaking in which he is supposedly taking the
p.o.v. of his audience. But isn't this an assumption on his part? His
talks always focus on conflict and division, and it can be quite
depressing. I start to wonder if he isn't being very presumptuous and
just projecting the conflict that is inside him. I can imagine someone
like, say, Poonjaji arguing with him: "Who is in conflict? Where is this
division you speak of?"
That would have been a heck of a conversation! (It would have been neat
to listen to Jiddu Krishnamurti and U.G. Krishnamurti going at it too.)
Haizen Paige wrote:
>
> >Bruce Morgen wrote in his Osho essay:
>
Senny
That's nice Beth. And anyone that inspires
love and compassion is
performing an admirable service - there is certainly
much need and room for it
in the world.
The reason I capatalised Realisation was to indicate
a condition that is perpetual
or absolute, as opposed to experiences. Experiences
are not what I would describe as
anything to do with Spiritual Realization, Divine
Realisation or Spritual life. The very fact that they are an experience
is an indication that they are transient in nature. This is not bad or
wrong from my point of view. It is simply *not* what I was referring to.
To watch life as a movie is not what I would call Spiritual. This is in
fact what most people do. They simply observe life, they do not participate
in the tangible Life-Current or Spiritual-Current that manifests life.
The perpetual communion with the tangible Spiritual Current or Force that
descends into the body from above the crown is what I am referring to when
I speak of Spiritual Life or Divine, or Realisation. This is not an experience.
It is constant and unchanging. But it's quality manifests itself as the
instrument or medium of changes.
A subtle but major distinction.
Love to you and your 8 year old (son or daughter),
Senen
love,
Beth------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beth <jel...@unground-river.com>
Crazy Orphan
Insanity
Raving LunaticsBeth
Crazy Orphan <jel...@unground-river.com>
Insanity
Raving Lunatics
1 Happy Way
nowhere
new jersey
USA
40 year old female single parent
Additional Information:
First Name Beth
Version 2.1
Senny
>Bruce Morgen wrote in his Osho essay:<quote on>
>One year earlier I had meet another enlightened teacher known to the
world as >Jiddu Krishnamurti. Krishnamurti could barely give a coherent
lecture and constantly scolded his audience by refering to their "shoddy
little minds".Comment: "Barely give a coherent lecture?" I have never felt that way.
What he was attempting to do was express the inexpressible in words, but
the words were not the thing.>I loved his frankness and his words were true,
His words were true... but you didn't really work with them.
>... but his subtly cantankerous nature was not very helpful in
transferring his knowledge to others.Krishnamurti wasn't speaking to comfort the listeners; he was there to
strip off the veil that stood between the listener and reality. Surely
there's room in the world for a teacher who's serious, who points out
the work involved that's necessary go beyond the conditioning of our
"shoddy little minds." The human mind IS shoddy -- and K was pointing
out what was beyond it.>Listening to Krishnamurti speak was like eating a sandwich made of
bread and sand.
of dry sand! Not a radiant, light or bright communication at all.
Only if one dislikes a bare bones, stripped down language, void of
puffery, void of illusion, spiritual jargon and pretense. That's exactly
what I found refreshing about him.>I found the best way to enjoy his talks
Krishnamurti's talks were not design to be an entertainment. He said so
many times over the years. One must delve deeply into what he was saying
before the insights are revealed.>was to completely ignore his words and just quietly absorb his
presence.This may have value, but without the inner labor necessary to observe
and free oneself, it never lasts.
>Using that techniqueK was doing what he could to talk people beyond techniques. He felt that
relying on techniques had no value to free the mind.
it is obvious that one cannot find this 'thing'. That this 'thing' is understood to be an
activity, something we *do*, not something we have.
You missed the
point of his teaching approach.>I would often become so expanded after a lecture that I could barely
talk for hours afterwards.
fatter, more inflated sense of egoity with loss of functionality?
You would "float," in other words. What value is floating?>J. Krishnamurti, while fully enlightened
and uniquely lovable, will be
recorded in history as a teacher with very poor verbal communication
skills.K will be remembered in history for having one of the most remarkable
lives of this century. He took on the real cause of the world's
suffering -- the human mind, human consciousness itself. He was a
revolutionary of the greatest kind. No one else did more, because he
didn't rely on belief systems at all. He never felt they were necessary,
and this is why his organization never became a cult.>Unlike the highly eloquent Rajneesh, however, Krishnamurti never
committed any crime, never pretended to be more than he was, and never
used other human beings selfishly.
conscious, unconscious or otherwise?
<end quote>There's nothing hard to understand about the following Krishnamurti
statements, other than living these truths:"I am only acting as a mirror to your life, in which you can see
yourself as you are; then you can throw away the mirror; the mirror is
not important.""In oneself lies the whole world, and if you know how to look and learn,
then the door is there and the key is in your hand. Nobody on earth can
give you either that key or the door to open, except yourself."
trying to find what is presumed to be missing or non-apparent? Is there really
a place where you expect to find something greater as if in a treasure chest?
"If one really wants to find out about God, what God is, whether there
is such a thing, something which is not nameable -- if that is the main
interest of your life -- that very interest does bring order. This means
that to find that reality one must live differently, deeply differently.
There must be austerity without hardness, there must be tremendous love.
And love cannot exist if there is fear,
Your consideration, discussion or extrapolation is invited!
Senen
or if the mind is pursuing
pleasure. So to find that reality one must understand oneself."
I recommend the teachings of Krishnamurti to everyone. He is the least
intrusive, but most profound of any teacher I've ever come across. But
he is very demanding of one's own efforts, so one must be prepared for
this. One of his main teachings is that one simply can't believe in
order to find God. One must do the inner labor to strip off what stands
in the way.
Haizen Paige
Petros
>
> Haizen Paige wrote:
>
> >Bruce Morgen wrote in his Osho essay:
>
> <quote on>
>
>
> >Listening to Krishnamurti speak was like eating a sandwich
> made of
> bread and sand.
>
> I found that just reading his works was like receiving the
> transmission
> of dry sand! Not a radiant, light or bright communication at all.
Whatever floats your boat. K is not everyone's cup of tea.
>
> Only if one dislikes a bare bones, stripped down language,
> void of
> puffery, void of illusion, spiritual jargon and pretense.
> That's exactly
> what I found refreshing about him.
>
> >I found the best way to enjoy his talks
>
> Krishnamurti's talks were not design to be an entertainment.
> He said so
> many times over the years. One must delve deeply into what
> he was saying
> before the insights are revealed.
>
> >was to completely ignore his words and just quietly absorb
> his
> presence.
>
> This may have value, but without the inner labor necessary
> to observe
> and free oneself, it never lasts.
>
> What inner labour *exactly* are you referring to?
I don't know what *he* means, except maybe just being observant and
attentive inwardly. I don't rely on ideas of effort and labor at all,
however.
>
> >Using that technique
>
> K was doing what he could to talk people beyond techniques.
> He felt that
> relying on techniques had no value to free the mind.
>
> Your description of the mind presumes that mind is a 'thing' that a
> person 'has'. Yet
> it is obvious that one cannot find this 'thing'. That this 'thing' is
> understood to be an
> activity, something we *do*, not something we have.
I would say, it is an activity but it is an activity that is *done
through* what we call us, or simply an activity that goes on. There is
doing but no doer.
For K, freeing the mind meant something like freeing the process of what
is called 'mind' from attachment to culture, memory, and knowledge, or
ego. But there is no one doing the "freeing," there is just the
activity of the mind's process becoming free from cultural attachments,
programming, and memory and knowledge, so that there is this living
without knowledge. ("Freedom from the Known" is what K called it. The
known being dead, finite, conditioned.)
> You missed the
> point of his teaching approach.
>
> >I would often become so expanded after a lecture that I
> could barely
> talk for hours afterwards.
>
> Is expansion and speechlessness a greater Realisation or is it a
> greater, bigger,
> fatter, more inflated sense of egoity with loss of functionality?
It could just be expanded egoity. I can't speak for the first poster,
but to say that "I" became expanded (whatever that means) is not helpful
and is not to be equated with total Understanding. Especially since the
experience obviously was not permanent. It is merely another phenomenal
experience.
> >Unlike the highly eloquent Rajneesh, however, Krishnamurti
> never
> committed any crime, never pretended to be more than he was,
> and never
> used other human beings selfishly.
I don't know about this. I don't think all the details of his life have
been permitted to be released. Anyway, another "guru" who knew K for
many years (U.G. Krishnamurti; no relation) accuses K of being a phony
and a hypocrite.
> "In oneself lies the whole world, and if you know how to
> look and learn,
> then the door is there and the key is in your hand. Nobody
> on earth can
> give you either that key or the door to open, except
> yourself."
>
> And does this not re-inforce the sense of separation? Of looker, or
> seeker
> trying to find what is presumed to be missing or non-apparent? Is
> there really
> a place where you expect to find something greater as if in a treasure
> chest?
Not ultimately. Yet there remains this presumption of separation among
K's audience, and he addresses it. Yet if the whole world is indeed in
oneself, there can be no separation. Actually, I'm not that sure what
he's trying to say.
> "If one really wants to find out about God, what God is,
> whether there
> is such a thing, something which is not nameable -- if that
> is the main
> interest of your life -- that very interest does bring
> order. This means
> that to find that reality one must live differently, deeply
> differently.
> There must be austerity without hardness, there must be
> tremendous love.
> And love cannot exist if there is fear,
>
> Again is fear a thing that can be?
There is this word, fear, and there is this sensation in the body that
is equated with it.
But I am not wholly in Krishnamurti's camp. I am not at all convinced
that his admonitions (you must do this, you must do that) have any
effect at all.
Senny
> Senny wrote:
> >
> > Haizen Paige wrote:
> >
> > >Bruce Morgen wrote in his Osho essay:
> >
> > >
> > >Listening to Krishnamurti speak was like eating a sandwich
> > made of
> > bread and sand.
> >
> > I found that just reading his works was like receiving the
> > transmission
> > of dry sand! Not a radiant, light or bright communication at all.
>
> Whatever floats your boat. K is not everyone's cup of tea.
>
>
That' for certain. I woman I know who spent many years with him described
him as
someone who was very angry underneath it all and had lost the humour that is
animated
by many of the self proclaimed and other-proclaimed Relizers. I can't say I
never met the
man. But his works have never 'rocked my world'.
> >
> > Only if one dislikes a bare bones, stripped down language,
> > void of
> > puffery, void of illusion, spiritual jargon and pretense.
> > That's exactly
> > what I found refreshing about him.
> >
> > >I found the best way to enjoy his talks
> >
> > Krishnamurti's talks were not design to be an entertainment.
> > He said so
> > many times over the years. One must delve deeply into what
> > he was saying
> > before the insights are revealed.
> >
> > >was to completely ignore his words and just quietly absorb
> > his
> > presence.
> >
> > This may have value, but without the inner labor necessary
> > to observe
> > and free oneself, it never lasts.
> >
> > What inner labour *exactly* are you referring to?
>
> I don't know what *he* means, except maybe just being observant and
> attentive inwardly. I don't rely on ideas of effort and labor at all,
> however.
>
I concur.
>
> >
> > >Using that technique
> >
> > K was doing what he could to talk people beyond techniques.
> > He felt that
> > relying on techniques had no value to free the mind.
> >
> > Your description of the mind presumes that mind is a 'thing' that a
> > person 'has'. Yet
> > it is obvious that one cannot find this 'thing'. That this 'thing' is
> > understood to be an
> > activity, something we *do*, not something we have.
>
> I would say, it is an activity but it is an activity that is *done
> through* what we call us, or simply an activity that goes on. There is
> doing but no doer.
>
> For K, freeing the mind meant something like freeing the process of what
> is called 'mind' from attachment to culture, memory, and knowledge, or
> ego. But there is no one doing the "freeing," there is just the
> activity of the mind's process becoming free from cultural attachments,
> programming, and memory and knowledge, so that there is this living
> without knowledge. ("Freedom from the Known" is what K called it. The
> known being dead, finite, conditioned.)
>
>
> > You missed the
> > point of his teaching approach.
> >
> > >I would often become so expanded after a lecture that I
> > could barely
> > talk for hours afterwards.
> >
> > Is expansion and speechlessness a greater Realisation or is it a
> > greater, bigger,
> > fatter, more inflated sense of egoity with loss of functionality?
>
> It could just be expanded egoity. I can't speak for the first poster,
> but to say that "I" became expanded (whatever that means) is not helpful
> and is not to be equated with total Understanding. Especially since the
> experience obviously was not permanent. It is merely another phenomenal
> experience.
>
> > >Unlike the highly eloquent Rajneesh, however, Krishnamurti
> > never
> > committed any crime, never pretended to be more than he was,
> > and never
> > used other human beings selfishly.
>
> I don't know about this. I don't think all the details of his life have
> been permitted to be released. Anyway, another "guru" who knew K for
> many years (U.G. Krishnamurti; no relation) accuses K of being a phony
> and a hypocrite.
>
> > "In oneself lies the whole world, and if you know how to
> > look and learn,
> > then the door is there and the key is in your hand. Nobody
> > on earth can
> > give you either that key or the door to open, except
> > yourself."
> >
> > And does this not re-inforce the sense of separation? Of looker, or
> > seeker
> > trying to find what is presumed to be missing or non-apparent? Is
> > there really
> > a place where you expect to find something greater as if in a treasure
> > chest?
>
> Not ultimately. Yet there remains this presumption of separation among
> K's audience, and he addresses it. Yet if the whole world is indeed in
> oneself, there can be no separation. Actually, I'm not that sure what
> he's trying to say.
>
> He lost me there too.
>
> > "If one really wants to find out about God, what God is,
> > whether there
> > is such a thing, something which is not nameable -- if that
> > is the main
> > interest of your life -- that very interest does bring
> > order. This means
> > that to find that reality one must live differently, deeply
> > differently.
> > There must be austerity without hardness, there must be
> > tremendous love.
> > And love cannot exist if there is fear,
> >
> > Again is fear a thing that can be?
>
> There is this word, fear, and there is this sensation in the body that
> is equated with it.
>
> But I am not wholly in Krishnamurti's camp. I am not at all convinced
> that his admonitions (you must do this, you must do that) have any
> effect at all.
I agree with you. I sense that 'something' about his communication is
incomplete.
Love Senen
Haizen Paige
> I had a hard time understanding Krishnaji at first. I felt that he was
> talking "around" the point and never really hitting it. That is to say,
> I've found that teachers like Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj
> -- both of whom are rather like K in their rejection of forms and
> techniques -- make a lot more sense to me in transcriptions of their
> words.
Yes, I would say that most of the teachers I've been familiar with are more
accessible on the surface, and I have been attracted by this greatly. (I have
not read that much of the beloved Ramana Maharshi or are familiar with N.
Maharaj.) The difference between some of these teachers and Krishnaji is that
they appear more willing to give a direct answers to a direct question. They
give the impression that "I know," and talk from this apparent knowing. (For
me, I distrust much of this.) They are also more inclined to say: "Do this,
practice this technique or approach, and you will find God." Krishnaji, on
the other hand, does not seem to directly give answers in the same way,
though he will clearly point out what he considers to be a fact of the mind,
of life. Instead he tries to set up the conditions so the person can discover
a truth for himself. For this reason, he can be frustrating as a teacher
because he is always reflecting the person back upon himself (the person
asking the question), and this constant mirroring can be fatiguing in order
to dig into these deeper layers of understanding that Krishnaji is talking
about.
> But I have persisted with Krishnaji over the years, just kept
> reading his dialogues and listening to him, and I find that he *is*
> getting to something, but it is very, very subtle.
I have done the same. I have transcribed a number of his tapes and read them
over and over and found this of immense value, to at least understand him at
a conceptual level and then possibly go beyond. What amazes me is that these
talks or dialogues always seem fresh, and I perceive something new with each
hearing.
> He is difficult for
> many people because it doesn't seem that he is using any specialized,
> technical vocabulary.
Yes, when he left Theosophy, he left their jargon behind and worked on
developing a new language to express his new approach to teaching. It was
very difficult for him in the beginning, and I would say he struggled with
this greatly with each talk because he would start afresh, start from the
level the listeners were on and build his talk from there. I've never read a
language like his because he uses such ordinary words to convey such
extraordinary meaning. He was like an objective, dispassionate scientist in
his approach to truth. In some instances, he seems very intellectual as he
tries to show his listeners how to observe the limitations of time, thought,
knowledge, etc. -- all of which he considered to be parts of the 'me.' When
asked what he basic teaching was, he said, "Where you are, the other is not."
Further, I would say that he was showing us how to free ourselves from the
'me,' the ego, so the sacred could come into being. The sacred would come if
there was room for it. This is very much different than yearning for God,
which is how most teachers, it seems to me, say is the path to finding God.
Krishnaji was very adamant as this, and for this reason he was not for
tradition, for reading the Vedas, or doing puja. He felt that these
traditions stood in the way of the direct perception of truth He felt there
was no path to truth because truth was a living, moving thing.
> But in fact, he does use common everyday words in
> a very specific sense. I can't summarize it off the cuff right now, but
> it is important for anyone interested in K to read as many of his
> transcribed dialogues as possible. The repetition of concepts and
> emphases that one encounters will make what he is saying much clearer.
Good point. Also, if one listens to a series of his tapes, usually given in
series of five or six, each series is a complete cycle within itself, in
which he discusses the same basic issues of the 'me,' of truth, love, death,
sorrow, suffering and so on. It's as if he starts his talks from scratch and
builds completely anew until he completes the entire cycle. It was simply
amazing because he was able to do this, to stay fresh, for over sixty years.
Even at the very end of his life, one of the greatest pictures I've ever seen
of him was at his last talk in Madras, if I rightly recall, at the age of 90.
He was glowing, practically levitating off the platform in apparent bliss.
He had the look and freshness of a young man. Glorious to see.
> It should also be remembered that many of his books are in fact
> dialogues, as I said. The 'teaching' grows out of the context in which
> certain questions are asked.
Yes. He felt the answer was always inherent in the question, not separate
from the question. But this is not always what the listener wants to hear
because we are conditioned to follow, to set up someone else as an authority,
and he was not for this at all. In self-knowledge, he felt there was no
authority, that we must be everything: the student, the guru... everything.
He blocked off all the exits until there was no escape from oneself. Very
uncomfortable -- but he felt this was absolutely necessary in order to free
ourselves.
> That said, I do have a 'problem' with K. He does seem to talk a lot
> about "conflict" and division, pettiness and shoddiness and all that,
> and I find myself wondering who specifically he thinks he is addressing.
I cannot speak for him, but I will share what I feel he meant. He did not see
the human beings as whole. He stated that to be an individual is be whole;
but since we're fragmented human beings, we are not whole and therefore not
individuals. His statement of these kinds of facts, and facts they are, are
unpalatable to our ears, for perhaps deep down inside were are aware of how
stuck, how fragmented we are inwardly. This fragmentation is connect with the
action of the 'me.' The action of the 'me' is will (the summation of desire,
in his view). Also, there is the action of the ideal (which is the conflict
between the what-is and the what-should-be). There's also the action of
ideology -- the attempt to conform to a belief or concept. These various
action of the me 'are' in conflict with each other and therefore lead to a
disorderly inner and outer life. He was trying to point out what to observe
about the 'me,' and that by so observing such actions, such actions would
cease on their own. Then what takes place is the action of non-action. A new
force emerges, like the perfume of a flower, and he describes this energy as
love -- but not love in the sentimental sense of the world. Or to put it
another way -- if one sees the false, then truth comes into being on its own,
wholeness comes into the being, because the action of the 'me' has ended
itself and what remains is this glorious emptiness -- the source of life
itself.
> He always speaks in the first person, i.e. "I am in conflict, I am
> divided," etc., and it is understood that this "I" is simply a
> convenience or manner of speaking in which he is supposedly taking the
> p.o.v. of his audience.
Yes, that is my understanding. He would phrase his statements as if he was
the listener. He would verbalize what we were likely to be saying within
ourselves.
> But isn't this an assumption on his part?
I would say that, in looking at the world as a whole, in its entirety, at
human beings as a united whole, which we are, his statement was more than an
assumption. When one looks at the world, there is such fragmentation and
disorder. The disorder and conflicts brought on by beliefs, by political
systems, by nationality, by religion. He was trying to get his listeners to
see the relationship between the outer disorder and our inner conflicts. He
was stating these conflicts as facts, and I view them as facts as well. But
was he living in conflict? As far as I could tell -- no. He always moved from
the glorious emptiness which had been a part of him from the beginning of his
life There was this 'otherness', this perfume, that animated his life, and he
moved with tremendous force, integration, creativity, love, power, humor
(yes!) and poise.
> His
> talks always focus on conflict and division, and it can be quite
> depressing.
I would say that what is depressing about his talks is that he was
continually pointing out the root causes of depressing human conditions, and
this can be depressing or sometimes overwhelming to see -- at first. It's
depressing to see the mess were are in as human beings. But he felt that the
truth is revealed by seeing the false, and there was something real,
something sacred, something beyond the fear and chicanery of the human mind
that was possible for all of is. Also, that the human mind -- thought -- was
the results of our past, our human conditioning, and it was necessary for us
to be free of this if we were to live in unconditional freedom. Perhaps it is
depressing to take on these thousands of years of human conditioning, passed
on to us down through the centuries. Nevertheless, he appeared to be a free
man, and actually he loved to tell jokes and stories in his private life. But
in his public talks, he tended to be very serious because he felt that
serious answers were required to deal with the serious problems of the world,
and that, "We are the world, and the world is us."
> I start to wonder if he isn't being very presumptuous and
> just projecting the conflict that is inside him.
I have never felt that way about him, but I could understand why someone else
might.
> I can imagine someone
> like, say, Poonjaji arguing with him: "Who is in conflict? Where is this
> division you speak of?"
I would say that, if there were no division, we'd be living in an orderly
world. Human beings have said down through the centuries that they want peace
on earth, but evidently man is too conflicted, too at war with himself to
know this peace. I think this is a fact, that one can see division and
conflict everywhere. The question is what is the source of these conflicts,
and can human beings ever go beyond the 'me' and allow the true perfume of
love to come into being? Krishnaji was trying to take us to the core of these
inner divisions and move into the creative emptiness that means seeing
everything as if for the first time. He gave his all.
Haizen
>
--
Haizen Paige =^= Sedona, AZ
http://nen.sedona.net//haizen/
*
*
* *
* *
*
The Pleiades -- 28 Taurus MC:
In Greek Mythology. The seven daughters of Atlas
-- Maia, Electra, Celaeno, Taygeta, Merope, Alcyone,
and Sterope --, who were metamorphosed into stars.
Elizabeth J. Jelich-Griffin
>
>
>
> Elizabeth J. Jelich-Griffin wrote:
>
> > Senny wrote:
> > >
> > > Neither the child nor the adolescent Realises anything that can
> > be
> > > called Spiritual, Transcendental or Divine.
> >
> > I beg to differ. You haven't met my 8 yr. old yet, or you
> > wouldn't
> > believe this.
> >
> > This is the child who already observes his own life "like watching
> > a
> > movie".
> >
> > Who inspires me to acts of compassion.
> >
> > He may not have the vocabulary to indicate he has had "spiritual"
> > experiences, but it doesn't mean he never "Realizes".
>
> That's nice Beth.
You may not have meant it, but that came across as VERY condescending.
>And anyone that inspires love and compassion is
> performing an admirable service - there is certainly much need and
> room for it
> in the world.
>
> The reason I capatalised Realisation was to indicate a condition
> that is perpetual
> or absolute, as opposed to experiences. Experiences are not what I
> would describe as
> anything to do with Spiritual Realization, Divine Realisation or
> Spritual life.
So you don't "experience" the existence of "Spiritual Realization"?
>The very fact that they are an experience is an
> indication that they are transient in nature. This is not bad or
> wrong from my point of view. It is simply *not* what I was referring
> to. To watch life as a movie is not what I would call Spiritual.
> This is in fact what most people do.
But are most 8 year olds aware of their own life from that
perspective?
And bummed out by what they see?
>They simply observe life, they
> do not participate in the tangible Life-Current or Spiritual-Current
> that manifests life. The perpetual communion with the tangible
> Spiritual Current or Force that descends into the body from above
> the crown is what I am referring to when I speak of Spiritual Life
> or Divine, or Realisation. This is not an experience. It is constant
> and unchanging. But it's quality manifests itself as the instrument
> or medium of changes.
So what about this makes it so that a child can not be "Realized", by
your definition? They may not be aware that they are Realized, but
can be all that you described.
I have seen other children like this, so filled with love, all acts
from love. As though their state of "Realized" didn't change with
their physical manifestation.
Later,
Beth
Bernie
wrote:
>Nevertheless, he appeared to be a free
>man, and actually he loved to tell jokes and stories in his private life. But
>in his public talks, he tended to be very serious because he felt that
>serious answers were required to deal with the serious problems of the world,
>and that, "We are the world, and the world is us."
Actually, he cracked a joke in his public talks from time to time,
although not often. I remember seeing him in Brockwood laughing
helplessly at one of them.
Glenn Webb
everything.
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
On Fri, 21 May 1999 09:12:44 +1000, Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
>
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>
>
>Bruce Morgen wrote:
>
>> Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> >
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>> >> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The Paradox of
>> >> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt
>> >> >
>> >> Along similar lines, but
>> >> centered on Osho, one
>> >> might want to peruse the
>> >> following site (I agree
>> >> with a great deal of what
>> >> Christopher says, but
>> >> this does not comprise an
>> >> outright endorsement):
>> >
>> >Just in case you missed by colourful response My Friend,
>> >
>> >Love Senen
>> >
>> >When the un-Realised being is confronted by someone or something they do not
>> >understand, their reaction manifests itself in one of two characteristic
>> >forms - either doubt or belief.
>> >
>> >Doubt and belief are opposite sides of the same coin of mind. Doubt is based
>> >on the adolescent tendency of and toward independence through blind denial
>> >and non-Realisation. Belief on the otherhand is based on the childish
>> >tendency of and toward dependence through blind faith and non-Realisation.
>> >Only Realisation or Most Direct Experience or Most Direct Heart-Knowledge
>> >transcends the mood or mind-based and therefore fear-based tendencies of both
>> >doubt and belief.
>> >
>> >No response I can give you, other than this response, is of any Real
>> >usefulness to you. All other responses merely reinforce the childish mood of
>> >dependence and therefore, at best, only temporarily consoles you, or on the
>> >otherhand provides you with more information on which to carry on your mood
>> >of doubt and independent rejection or blind denial. Real consideration and
>> >Realisation of this argument, or understanding of this argument, is your only
>> >Truly and Most Fully Liberating alternative.
>> >
>> >Neither the child nor the adolescent Realises anything that can be called
>> >Spiritual, Transcendental or Divine. Both characters must grow and mature
>> >beyond their inherently limited points of view and limited
>> >self-understanding. Only then is Entrance into the Field that Exists beyond,
>> >and prior to those points of view, possible. This is Realised progressively
>> >by Grace in the Company and through feeling-Contemplation of a Real and True
>> >Spiritual Master (or Tangible Spiritual Force Transmitter) or the Sat Guru.
>> >
>> >What Attracted and continues to Attract me to the Person of Avatar Adi Da
>> >Samraj
>> >is His Capacity To Transmit Real, Tangible and Un-deniable Spirit-Force,
>> >which is characteristically felt as a descending Force crashing down through
>> >the crown and into the entire body mind. This is what ocurred the first time
>> >I picked up a book 7 years ago and It has occurred ever since. This is the
>> >True and Real Import of the Appearance of Adi Da Samraj. It is about
>> >Reception of this Transmission. And Realising the Condition of that
>> >Transmission. Everything else that you see, judge, have problems and conflict
>> >with, have everything to do with YOU.
>> >
>> >Anyone that persists in the Real practise of feeling-contemplation of His
>> >bodily human Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State will Realise that
>> >which is the Mystery and Paradox of Adi Da Samraj. There rest is mind. The
>> >rest is fear. And mind and fear have every manner and means to justify, deny,
>> >criticise, defend and refuse all that is prior to or Beyond mind. However
>> >what is most revealing about this act is the confusion of the seeker and the
>> >need to get one's head around It. But that which is beyond the head is not
>> >understood *by* the head. It is threatening to the head. But the head must be
>> >'cut off' by It.
>> >
>> >Consider it now. Truly where is the locus of your attention - right now?
>> >
>> >Is it really in the heart? Or is it centered behind the eyes, between the
>> >ears, above and behind the nose. For one who is looking for proof or is
>> >defending, justifying, denying. criticising, or refusing the communications
>> >of Avatar Adi Da Samraj, one thing is for certain, attention is not resolved
>> >in its source. It is *not* in the heart.
>> >
>> >May you Realise that which Is - beyond doubting, believing, defending,
>> >justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is
>> >head or mind.
>> >
>> >Much Love to all and All -- Senen
>> >
>> So much Capitalized Cult-Speak
>> in reaction to two simple
>> website links! From the
>> heart, allow me to distill
>> Senen's copious verbiage to
>> its essence. I testify
>> that thought is the tool of
>> distillation and not the
>> distiller.
>>
>> [Distillation] If you do not
>> wholeheartedly embrace my
>> guru and dare to express any
>> interest in him as a mere
>> human being (albeit a radiant
>> communicator) rather than
>> immediately becoming Wholly
>> Infatuated and Totally
>> Dependent on him, you are
>> obviously not of The Heart,
>> but rather lost in the
>> loveless activity of the
>> "doubting, believing,
>> defending, justifying,
>> affirming, criticising,
>> analysing, thinking," and
>> ultimately fearful "head or
>> mind." [distillation ends]
>>
>> Senen's position of course
>> comes not of something as
>> mundane as "belief," but
>> rather of the Generously
>> Capitalized Grace that can
>> come Only through Bhakti to
>> the One and Only Fully God-
>> Identified Being in All of
>> Human History -- Adi Da
>> Samraj.
>
>First note to the blind-doubter and in this case blind-reader... from above...
>
>" This is Realised progressively by Grace in the Company and through
>feeling-Contemplation of a Real and True Spiritual Master (or Tangible
>Spiritual Force Transmitter) or the Sat Guru."
>- No reference of exclusivity here My Friend.
>
>The (trap being set, the bait is thrown out and in come the believers and the
>doubters in their droves - further confirming the above:
>
>... And hence the game of doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming,
>criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind begins.... And
>one
>more word can be added here - sarcasm!
>
>The important thing to add or note in relation to 'the doubter' is that his doubt
>truly is blind. The blind and adolescent doubter has not made his statement or
>confession after spending years in feeling-contemplation of Adi Da Samraj or any
>other proclaimed God-Realiser whose calling is to Satsang. This is never, ever the
>case. This is why the language of the doubter is always analytically abstract, or
>non-personal in nature.
>
>The blind and inherently adolescent blind-doubter of Adi Da Samraj (or any other
>God-Realised Being whose Calling is to Satsang) NEVER, EVER responds by saying:
>
>"After years and years of feeling-contemplation of Avatar Adi Da's human bodily
>Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State (or any other God-Realised Being whose
>Calling is to Satsang) and really and truly and *exhaustively* considering this
>Single and Exclusive practise I conclude that....."
>
>This never happens. The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has NO EXHAUSTIVE
>EXPERIENCE of what he or she is referring to. This is why their
>language is coloured with tones of criticism, distant external, or
>non-participatory
>observations and points of view. Their language never indicates or expresses ANY
>SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You you can follow the posts, the
>discourses, and the communications of these individuals everywhere and note that
>it NEVER changes. They NEVER speak from the point of view of Realisation or
>personal experience. They have everything to say about every Spiritual or
>Religious topic
>known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing,
>defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all
>that is head or mind - ALWAYS. They want to be seen as Gurus through this purely
>intellectually based actvitity, however they never achieve what the True Guru (any
>True Guru) Demonstrates. And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one
>who can FROM
>EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner
>of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So they are very agressive (some more
>outwardly and others more passively) toward those who have Realised Something or
>those who have thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind
>zealots. However this is the very thing they deeply crave themselves. They want
>attention. They want admiration. They want to be seen as authories. They crave to
>be LOVED. But they are not loved. And they are not lovers. And they have all
>sorts of problems, complications and concerns with those that speak about Love or
>devotion.
>If someone animates signs of devotion to them they have no problem, concern or
>complications but when it is to someone other than themselves then suddently it's
>not o.k and the critical pen comes out to play. But they never get the devotion
>they criticise in others (blind or otherwise). They certainly don't get it to the
>degree that the True Guru Gets it. And they are all over the place with their
>criticism, even of the thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or
>blind zealots - whatever they are reffered to as; however the key question
>continually beckons:
>
>"What the hell has the devotional response (blind or otherwise) got to do with
>you???
>"Why do you have a reaction to it? Why are you always talking about it?
>
>And the answer, as is expected comes in the usual tones of criticism, sarcasm
>justification, distant, external, or non-participatory or non-personal
>observations and points of view that have nothing to do with them.
>
>The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never speaks from personal experience. He
>always has some gibbering nonsense to say (and justify) about why he is saying
>what he is saying. He never gets it! He never gets the fact that it's all about
>him!
>
>Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick to tell you - No - (as secretly
>as possible via personal email perhaps - just in case he should lose his
>self-presumed status as authority from his own blind followers. Yet he is seen
>continuously commenting on matters that are outside of his experience or direct
>knowledge. He speaks about Realisation but has Realised nothing himself. He speaks
>about the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself. He speaks about Reality
>but has not Realised Reality himself. He speaks about Love but has not Realised
>Love himself. He speaks about Consciousness but has not Realised Consciousness
>Himself.
>
>And yet he still has the audacity to criticise cultish believers, when his own
>demonstration is that of cultish believer. He has Realised nothing but comments on
>everything. This is what the cultish bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the
>point of view of others and affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or
>intellectual or mind based point of view. He is the ultimate jokester. He is the
>ultimate fool. He is the epitome of self-delusion. But he will never put the word
>Realisation (God-Realisation or otherwise) beside his own name because then he
>would have to come up with the Goods. And he can't. He absolutely knows that he
>can't. He's not up to the Real Gig, so he tries to pull off the would be cult
>leader's gig. Yet all the while he knows that it's all bullshit. He secretly knows
>that he's not up to it. He is always in fear of being found out. He simply has no
>Realisation in relation to what he is always rapping about.
>
>This My Friend Bruce Morgan is all about you, and your strategy and your present
>life-gig, everyone is stuck somewhere in their non-Realisation, My Friend this is
>where
>YOU are stuck!!!!!
>
>> Senen is obviously
>> an effusively happy camper,
>> and I harbor no intention
>> or hope of disrupting such
>> a joyful state. The circus
>> is in town, and with the
>> circus come the clowns, on
>
>> whose greasepainted faces
>>
>>> the smile never falters.
>>
>And to the Show come the sad, un-happy brain-tight spectators too afraid and
>loveless in their suppressed intellectual states to enjoy the Party. Having
>forgotten
>that life is about God of God and as God they come to the circus to be
>re-Awakened,
>re-Inspired, Humorously Mocked, they may Remember the Magic, the Joy and the
>un-reasonable Ecstacy that Is God and Is Life.
>
>My I have Served your much needed critical heart with Mad Joy, Ecstatic
>Pleasure and the memory of a Life empty of the un-happy and loveless mood
>of doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing,
>
>thinking, fear - or all that is head or mind. May your Heart-smile re-appear and
>Out-Shine the mirror of minds-i that is the Shade to Love's own-Felt Embrace!!
>
>
>Much Love to you My Friend - Know that I still Love you!!!
>
>Senen
>
>Much love -- Bruce
>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
>> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>>
>> m(_ _)m
>
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>
><P>Bruce Morgen wrote:
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
><P>>
><BR>>--------------235F84BA9EB964F1DBB94547
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><BR>>
><BR>>> Petros <xri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
><BR>>>
><BR>>> >Here's a link to an essay someone wrote a few years ago, "The Paradox
>of
><BR>>> >Da Free John: Distinguishing the Message from the Medium."
><BR>>> >
><BR>>> >
><BR>>> ><A HREF="http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt">http://www.inlink.com/~rife/dafree.txt</A>
><BR>>> >
><BR>>> Along similar lines, but
><BR>>> centered on Osho, one
><BR>>> might want to peruse the
><BR>>> following site (I agree
><BR>>> with a great deal of what
><BR>>> Christopher says, but
><BR>>> this does not comprise an
><BR>>> outright endorsement):
><BR>>
><BR>>Just in case you missed by colourful response My Friend,
><BR>>
><BR>>Love Senen
><BR>>
><BR>>When the un-Realised being is confronted by someone or something they
>do not
><BR>>understand, their reaction manifests itself in one of two characteristic
><BR>>forms - either doubt or belief.
><BR>>
><BR>>Doubt and belief are opposite sides of the same coin of mind.
>Doubt is based
><BR>>on the adolescent tendency of and toward independence through blind
>denial
><BR>>and non-Realisation. Belief on the otherhand is based on the childish
><BR>>tendency of and toward dependence through blind faith and non-Realisation.
><BR>>Only Realisation or Most Direct Experience or Most Direct Heart-Knowledge
><BR>>transcends the mood or mind-based and therefore fear-based tendencies
>of both
><BR>>doubt and belief.
><BR>>
><BR>>No response I can give you, other than this response, is of any Real
><BR>>usefulness to you. All other responses merely reinforce the
>childish mood of
><BR>>dependence and therefore, at best, only temporarily consoles you,
>or on the
><BR>>otherhand provides you with more information on which to carry on
>your mood
><BR>>of doubt and independent rejection or blind denial. Real consideration
>and
><BR>>Realisation of this argument, or understanding of this argument, is
>your only
><BR>>Truly and Most Fully Liberating alternative.
><BR>>
><BR>>Neither the child nor the adolescent Realises anything that can be
>called
><BR>>Spiritual, Transcendental or Divine. Both characters must
>grow and mature
><BR>>beyond their inherently limited points of view and limited
><BR>>self-understanding. Only then is Entrance into the Field that
>Exists beyond,
><BR>>and prior to those points of view, possible. This is Realised
>progressively
><BR>>by Grace in the Company and through feeling-Contemplation of a Real
>and True
><BR>>Spiritual Master (or Tangible Spiritual Force Transmitter) or the
>Sat Guru.
><BR>>
><BR>>What Attracted and continues to Attract me to the Person of Avatar
>Adi Da
><BR>>Samraj
><BR>>is His Capacity To Transmit Real, Tangible and Un-deniable Spirit-Force,
><BR>>which is characteristically felt as a descending Force crashing down
>through
><BR>>the crown and into the entire body mind. This is what ocurred the
>first time
><BR>>I picked up a book 7 years ago and It has occurred ever since. This
>is the
><BR>>True and Real Import of the Appearance of Adi Da Samraj. It is about
><BR>>Reception of this Transmission. And Realising the Condition of that
><BR>>Transmission. Everything else that you see, judge, have problems and
>conflict
><BR>>with, have everything to do with YOU.
><BR>>
><BR>>Anyone that persists in the Real practise of feeling-contemplation
>of His
><BR>>bodily human Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State will Realise
>that
><BR>>which is the Mystery and Paradox of Adi Da Samraj. There rest is mind.
>The
><BR>>rest is fear. And mind and fear have every manner and means to justify,
>deny,
><BR>>criticise, defend and refuse all that is prior to or Beyond mind.
>However
><BR>>what is most revealing about this act is the confusion of the seeker
>and the
><BR>>need to get one's head around It. But that which is beyond the head
>is not
><BR>>understood *by* the head. It is threatening to the head. But the head
>must be
><BR>>'cut off' by It.
><BR>>
><BR>>Consider it now. Truly where is the locus of your attention
>- right now?
><BR>>
><BR>>Is it really in the heart? Or is it centered behind the eyes, between
>the
><BR>>ears, above and behind the nose. For one who is looking for proof
>or is
><BR>>defending, justifying, denying. criticising, or refusing the communications
><BR>>of Avatar Adi Da Samraj, one thing is for certain, attention is not
>resolved
><BR>>in its source. It is *not* in the heart.
><BR>>
><BR>>May you Realise that which Is - beyond doubting, believing, defending,
><BR>>justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear
>or all that is
><BR>>head or mind.
><BR>>
><BR>>Much Love to all and All -- Senen
><BR>>
><BR>So much Capitalized Cult-Speak
><BR>in reaction to two simple
><BR>website links! From the
><BR>heart, allow me to distill
><BR>Senen's copious verbiage to
><BR>its essence. I testify
><BR>that thought is the tool of
><BR>distillation and not the
><BR>distiller.
><P>[Distillation] If you do not
><BR>wholeheartedly embrace my
><BR>guru and dare to express any
><BR>interest in him as a mere
><BR>human being (albeit a radiant
><BR>communicator) rather than
><BR>immediately becoming Wholly
><BR>Infatuated and Totally
><BR>Dependent on him, you are
><BR>obviously not of The Heart,
><BR>but rather lost in the
><BR>loveless activity of the
><BR>"doubting, believing,
><BR>defending, justifying,
><BR>affirming, criticising,
><BR>analysing, thinking," and
><BR>ultimately fearful "head or
><BR>mind." [distillation ends]
><P>Senen's position of course
><BR>comes not of something as
><BR>mundane as "belief," but
><BR>rather of the Generously
><BR>Capitalized Grace that can
><BR>come Only through Bhakti to
><BR>the One and Only Fully God-
><BR>Identified Being in All of
><BR>Human History -- Adi Da
><BR>Samraj.</BLOCKQUOTE>
><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">First note to the blind-doubter and in this case
>blind-reader... from above...</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#009900">" This is Realised progressively by Grace in the
>Company and through feeling-Contemplation of a Real and True Spiritual
>Master (or Tangible</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#009900">Spiritual Force Transmitter) or the Sat Guru."</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#009900">- </FONT><FONT COLOR="#CC0000">No reference of
>exclusivity here My Friend.</FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">The (trap being set, the bait is thrown out and
>in come the believers and the</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">doubters in their droves - further confirming
>the above:</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">... And hence the game of doubting, believing,
>defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking,
>fear or all that is head or mind begins.... And one</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">more word can be added here - sarcasm!</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">The important thing to add or note in relation
>to 'the doubter' is that his doubt truly is blind. The blind and adolescent
>doubter has not made his statement or confession after spending years in
>feeling-contemplation of Adi Da Samraj or any other proclaimed God-Realiser
>whose calling is to Satsang. This is never, ever the case. This is why
>the language of the doubter is always analytically abstract, or non-personal
>in nature.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">The blind and inherently adolescent blind-doubter
>of Adi Da Samraj (or any other God-Realised Being whose Calling is to Satsang)
>NEVER, EVER responds by saying:</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#009900">"After years and years of feeling-contemplation
>of Avatar Adi Da's human bodily</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#009900">Form, His Spiritual Presence and His State (or
>any other God-Realised Being whose Calling is to Satsang) and really and
>truly and </FONT><FONT COLOR="#CC0000">*exhaustively*</FONT><FONT COLOR="#009900">
>considering this Single and Exclusive practise I conclude that....."</FONT><FONT COLOR="#009900"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">This </FONT><FONT COLOR="#990000">never</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">
>happens. The blind and inherently adolescent doubter has </FONT><FONT COLOR="#CC0000">NO
>EXHAUSTIVE EXPERIENCE</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"> of what he or she is
>referring to. This is why their</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">language is coloured with tones of criticism,
>distant external, or non-participatory</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">observations and points of view. Their language
>never indicates or expresses ANY</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">SIGNS of personal experience. None. Ever. You
>you can follow the posts, the discourses, and the communications of these
>individuals everywhere and note that it NEVER changes. They NEVER speak
>from the point of view of Realisation or personal experience. They have
>everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">known to man, and yet their trails are littered
>with doubting, believing, defending, justifying, affirming, criticising,
>analysing, thinking, fear or all that is head or mind - ALWAYS. They
>want to be seen as Gurus through this purely intellectually based actvitity,
>however they never achieve what the True Guru (any True Guru) Demonstrates.
>And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one who can </FONT><FONT COLOR="#CC0000">FROM</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#CC0000">EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">
>can comment or speak about all manner</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So
>they are very agressive (some more</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">outwardly and others more passively) toward those
>who have Realised Something or</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">those who have thousands of adoring followers
>or admirers or devotees or blind zealots. However this is the very thing
>they deeply crave themselves. They want attention. They want admiration.
>They want to be seen as authories. They crave to be LOVED. But they
>are not loved. And they are not lovers. And they have all sorts of problems,
>complications and concerns with those that speak about Love or devotion.</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">If someone animates signs of devotion to them
>they have no problem, concern or complications but when it is to someone
>other than themselves then suddently it's not o.k and the critical pen
>comes out to play. But they never get the devotion they criticise in others
>(blind or otherwise). They certainly don't get it to the degree that the
>True Guru Gets it. And they are all over the place with their criticism,
>even of the thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind
>zealots - whatever they are reffered to as; however the key question continually
>beckons:</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#009900">"What the hell has the devotional response (blind
>or otherwise) got to do with you???</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#009900">"Why do you have a reaction to it?
>Why are you always talking about it?</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">And the answer, as is expected comes in the usual
>tones of criticism, sarcasm justification, distant, external, or </FONT><FONT COLOR="#990000">non-participatory
>or non-personal</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"> observations and points of
>view that have nothing to do with them.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">The inherently adolescent blind-doubter never
>speaks from personal experience. He always has some gibbering nonsense
>to say (and justify) about why he is saying what he is saying. He never
>gets it! He never gets the fact that it's all about him!</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Ask him if he is a Realiser and he is very quick
>to tell you - No - (as secretly as possible via personal email perhaps
>- just in case he should lose his self-presumed status as authority from
>his own blind followers. Yet he is seen continuously commenting on matters
>that are outside of his experience or direct knowledge. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#990000">He
>speaks about Realisation but has Realised nothing himself. He speaks about
>the Truth but has not Realised the Truth himself. He speaks about Reality
>but has not Realised Reality himself. He speaks about Love but has not
>Realised Love himself. He speaks about Consciousness but has not Realised
>Consciousness Himself.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#009900"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#009900">And yet he still has the audacity to criticise
>cultish believers, when his own demonstration is that of cultish believer.
>He has Realised nothing but comments on everything. This is what the cultish
>bleliever always does. Denies and doubts the point of view of others and
>affirms His own un-Realised or inexperienced or intellectual or mind based
>point of view. He is the ultimate jokester. He is the ultimate fool. He
>is the epitome of self-delusion.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"> But he will
>never put the word Realisation (God-Realisation or otherwise) beside his
>own name because then he would have to come up with the Goods. And he can't.
>He absolutely knows that he can't. He's not up to the Real Gig, so he tries
>to pull off the would be cult leader's gig. Yet all the while he knows
>that it's all bullshit. He secretly knows that he's not up to it. He is
>always in fear of being found out. He simply has no Realisation in relation
>to what he is always rapping about.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#FF9900">This My Friend </FONT><FONT COLOR="#3333FF">Bruce
>Morgan</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF9900"> is all about you, and your strategy
>and your present life-gig, everyone is stuck somewhere in their non-Realisation,
>My Friend this is where</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#FF9900">YOU are stuck!!!!!</FONT>
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Senen is obviously
><BR>an effusively happy camper,
><BR>and I harbor no intention
><BR>or hope of disrupting such
><BR>a joyful state. The circus
><BR>is in town, and with the
><BR>circus come the clowns, on</BLOCKQUOTE>
>
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>whose greasepainted faces
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>the smile never falters.</BLOCKQUOTE>
></BLOCKQUOTE>
><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">And to the Show come the sad, un-happy brain-tight
>spectators too afraid and</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">loveless in their suppressed intellectual states
>to enjoy the Party. Having forgotten</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">that life is about God of God and as God they
>come to the circus to be re-Awakened,</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">re-Inspired, Humorously Mocked, they may Remember
>the Magic, the Joy and the un-reasonable Ecstacy that Is God and
>Is Life.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">My I have Served your much needed critical heart
>with Mad Joy, Ecstatic</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Pleasure and the memory of a Life empty of the
>un-happy and loveless mood</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">of doubting, believing, defending, justifying,
>affirming, criticising, analysing,</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">thinking, fear - or all that is </FONT><FONT COLOR="#009900">head</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">
>or mind. May your Heart-smile re-appear and</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Out-Shine the mirror of minds-i that is the Shade
>to Love's own-Felt Embrace!!</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT> <FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Much Love to you My Friend - Know that I still
>Love you!!!</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P><FONT COLOR="#8000FF">Senen</FONT><FONT COLOR="#8000FF"></FONT>
><P>Much love -- Bruce
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
><P>__________________________________________________
><BR><A HREF="http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm">http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm</A>
><BR><A HREF="http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm">http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm</A>
><P>
>m(_ _)m</BLOCKQUOTE>
></HTML>
>
>--------------79E917750045C9F967DB3298--
>
Glenn Webb
>
>--------------D147D8DAEF51530C3C969DE8
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>> [snipped for brevity]
>>
>> >They have everything to say about every Spiritual or Religious topic
>> >known to man, and yet their trails are littered with doubting, believing,
>> >defending, justifying, affirming, criticising, analysing, thinking, fear or all
>> >that is head or mind - ALWAYS. They want to be seen as Gurus through this purely
>> >intellectually based actvitity, however they never achieve what the True Guru (any
>> >True Guru) Demonstrates. And they are unwilling to enter into the process of one
>> >who can FROM EXPERIENCE OR DIRECT REALISATION can comment or speak about all manner
>> of Spiritual and Religious Communication. So they are very agressive (some more
>> outwardly and others more passively) toward those who have Realised Something or
>> those who have thousands of adoring followers or admirers or devotees or blind
>> >zealots. However this is the very thing they deeply crave themselves. They want
>> attention. They want admiration. They want to be seen as authories. They crave to be
>> LOVED. But they are not loved. And they are not lovers. And they have all sorts of
>> problems, complications and concerns with those that speak about Love or devotion.
>>
>> Actually, no "problems,
>> complications," or
>> "concerns" at all -- like
>> the vast bulk of your
>> presentation, this is all
>> ASS-ump-tive guesswork
>> posing as compassionate
>> insight.
>
>The eternal catch-cry: where Bruce Morgan eternally cover his own ass. Everone
>elses point of view is (according to Bruce) "ASS-ump-tive guesswork".
I must not be one of "everyone elses", he has never accused me of
"ASS-ump-tive guesswork" (cute Bruce !)
>However when Bruces does the very same thing his attempts to camouflage his own
>comments which could equally be referred to (to use his own language "ASS-ump-tive
>guesswork") however what does Brucey prefers to call that?
>
>Quote: "I simply observe and comment"
>
>Translation: I'm ok. Bruce is great. Everyone else is stuffed.
Not so.
>
>Wake up and smell the roses my Friend!!!!!!
You don't sound like a friend.
>
>> See below for Bruce Morgen Glossary of Hypocracy:
>>
>> 1. Or so the True Devotee
>> continually ASS-umes.
>>
>> 2. I simply observe and
>> comment. Feel free to
>> continue to guess at my
>> motive(s), I feel quite
>> sure you can do much
>> better than you have so
>> far.
>
>> 3. Opinion (be-LIE-f) noted.
>>
>> 4. "He" knows what the "Real
>> Gig" is and does not need it
>> defined by others. thank you
>> very much for the gratuitous
>> analysis and instruction.
>>
>> 5. I'm sure you be-LIE-ve
>> this with all your heart.
>>
>> 6. May your insight some day
>> approach in its prominence
>> your devotion, ASS-ump-tive
>> guesswork, and incredibly
>> repetitive verbosity.
>
>> Thanks, right back atcha! - You bet it is!
>>
>> Love Senen
>>
>PS: By the way the absence of your personal experience and confession in
>all your communications is not "ASS-ump-tive guesswork".
A person who has come to the realization of the Collective
Consciousness, is removed from the Egotisticism which requires to
display ones-self as something to Worship. Bruce by his lack of such
display of his "personal experience", in truth displays it quite
obviously to one who has also realized the same, its a shame you lack
the Spiritual eyes with which to see it.
The Servant is the master, and the leader follows.
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>It is the case.
>If you would like to dig up the archive of ALL our communications with me
>you will see that this is absolutely true.
>
>I welcome your demonstration me otherwise!!!
>
>The bell is ringing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>>
>> Much love -- Bruce
>> >
>> __________________________________________________
>> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
>> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>>
>> m(_ _)m
>
<snipped the html-text which only wastes space in ngs>
Glenn Webb
(Grrr) wrote:
>On Sun, 23 May 1999 14:54:48 +1000, Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
>
>>Glenn Webb wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 21 May 1999 19:48:06 +1000, Senny <se...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
>
>>> >Maybe one day I'll see Him physically and maybe one day I'll reassociate formally
>>> >- I don't know, however one thing is certain, the absence of that which moved me
>>> >to associate to begin with has been Filled. I was re-Awakened to what I was
>>> >seeking.
>
>The Maitreya, by any other name, would still smell like a freak.
>
>>> >Senen
>>>
>>> Anyone know a good exorcist !??? Senen needs help ! Living beings are
>>> only HUMAN. True Spirituality comes from the SPIRIT REALM not from the
>>> physical.
>
>Good question!!
>Yeah! Does anybody know the number of a good exorcist?
>I was wondering if they delivered, or is it all drive thru these days?
>
>Because *i* keep thinking that jesus is inside of me.
>I was at the local library a while ago, and I found this reference
>manual called the bible.
>But all it indicated to me is that, as jesus, I should be able to
>perform some very magical stunts, minus the safety harness.
>Whereas I cannot do these forms of trickery.
Hello Grrr, as the Christians misjudge me, so have you. But that's ok,
the unique is always misjudged.
I am a Mystic, mystics don't look at things literally... There
everything is "obvious"... Mystics go on Spiritual journeys searching
for things hidden.
I disagree with both groups of literalists, the "Christian"
Fundamentalists, and Athiests who tear up what the Bible literally
says ('specially cause I find myself siding with the Atheists in
picking of "fellow believers", as I do not accept the literal
Scripture).
If I was the "standard Christian" you would never find me in these
"non-Christian newsgroups"...
AGREEING
:-)
I am a Mystic, that uses the "Christian Bible" as my source book. And
I agree with what Jesus taught (mystically speaking), and the life He
left as an example (again mystically speaking).
>
>>> Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>>> >
<snipped Senen displaying he has not received the Awareness of the
Consciousness (s)he claims to have received. Senen, your are right the
Consciousness is Not the "God" most "christians" teach, but IS but an
extention of YOURSELF, and all that is.
But being "in touch" with the all that is... DOES NOT INCLUDE...
INSULTING YOURSELF.
Which is all you do... when you set out to insult ANY PART of the ALL
THAT IS.
You need to re-awaken your new found "Awareness">
>
>The learned Fool writes his nonsense in better language,
>but 'tis still nonsense. Although, i'm in doubt as to whether all your
>rambly nonsense even counts as a language!
>It's simply what *i* would call "going through a dictionary, choosing
>a handful of big words, and threading them all together into this big
>messed up body of incoherent crap!"
As well as ruining his / her testimony. Senen had my respect, but lost
it.
>
>>As if the Christian prospects don't have enough reasons NOT to be associated with christianity!!!
>>
>>Your babble-filled hog-wash has been passed on to the anti-christian missionary movement to add to the many reasons
>>why not to be associated with the ideas that are
>>perpetuated by failed bible-study dropouts and mystical-movie-goers stuck still stuck in the pit of their own
>>nervous system.
>>
>>Senen
>
>What silly git you are!
>Go run off and play with your little dollies...
>
>There is an old saying that if a million monkeys typed
>on a million keyboards for a million years, eventually
>all the works of Shakespeare would be produced. Now,
>thanks to USENET, we know this is not true."
Thank you Grr for your defense !
Senen sent me some e-mail, which was totally ignorable quality.
Glenn (Christian MYSTIC)