Sant Thakar Singh/Defend your Initiate Souls!
Robert Steinhaus
Between 10% to 30% of those initiates suffer from serious debilitating
entity possession problems. In mercy I call on the Master to address the
suffering of the initiates and defend them from entity possession (even
as Kirpal and Sawan Singh defended their initiates in their day). Only
the Master has the strength and competence to defend the initiates. Only
the Master can defend the flock from the wolves that would devour them
from within. Sant Thakar Singh - DO YOUR DUTY!
jody
Uh. . . I think there's a little projection going on here. Are you
plagued by this entity possession yourself? How do you know it occurs?
Can you produce others who have experienced the same?
To tell the truth I think it's a bunch of BS. What you are terming
possessions are simple mental health issues. The devotees don't need
Singh as much as they need good mental health care.
Therapy is the gateway to an authentic spiritual practice. The
upwelling of deep issues that arise as a result of practice
must be processed to prepare the ground for the blessing of
realization.
--jodyr.
sh...@my-deja.com
<3851AE...@hotmail.com>,
hone...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Sant Thakar Singh of India
has over 200,000 initiates in the world.
> Between 10% to 30% of those initiates suffer from serious debilitating
> entity possession problems.
I have read these articles before. Unless you can present some proof of it,
I will consider that as an allegation, and nothing more.
> In mercy I call on the Master to address the
> suffering of the initiates
and defend them from entity
possession (even
> as Kirpal and Sawan Singh
defended their initiates in
their day).
This is an implied allegation that Thakar Singh Ji is not doing his duty. I
will dismiss all such allegations without any proof.
Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji taught his disciples how to avoid the low entities.
Entity possession is generally no problem, unless the person invites the
entities, as those who are involved in seances, channeling, etc....
> Only
> the Master has the strength and competence to defend the
initiates. Only
> the Master can defend the
flock from the wolves that
would devour them
> from within. Sant Thakar
Singh - DO YOUR DUTY!
This implied allegation that he is not doing his duty will be dismissed by
me. I see no proof of anything.
Michael Martin
A Sant Mat Guru
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
sh...@my-deja.com
jody <jo...@atman.net> wrote:
> Robert Steinhaus wrote:
> >
> > Sant Thakar Singh of India has over 200,000 initiates in the world.
> > Between 10% to 30% of those initiates suffer from serious debilitating
> > suffering of the initiates and defend them from entity possession (even
> > the Master has the strength and competence to defend the initiates. Only
> > the Master can defend the flock from the wolves that would devour them
> > from within. Sant Thakar Singh - DO YOUR DUTY!
>
> plagued by this entity possession yourself? How do you know it occurs?
> Can you produce others who have experienced the same?
>
> To tell the truth I think it's a bunch of BS. What you are terming
> possessions are simple mental health issues.
That might be true in some cases. There are also cases of entity possession.
> The devotees don't need
> Singh as much as they need good mental health care.
>
> Therapy is the gateway to an authentic spiritual practice.
What if the therapist is in need of therapy, himself? Are you saying a
therapist is a Guru, who gives us spiritual light?
> The
> upwelling of deep issues that arise as a result of practice
> must be processed to prepare the ground for the blessing of
> realization.
Realization will come as a result of Sat Guru Bhakti, and not as a result of
treatment from a Therapist.
>
> --jodyr.
>
Michael Martin
jody
>
> In article <3851BD95...@atman.net>,
> jody <jo...@atman.net> wrote:
> > Robert Steinhaus wrote:
> > >
> > > Sant Thakar Singh of India has over 200,000 initiates in the world.
> > > Between 10% to 30% of those initiates suffer from serious debilitating
> > > entity possession problems. In mercy I call on the Master to address the
> > > suffering of the initiates and defend them from entity possession (even
> > > as Kirpal and Sawan Singh defended their initiates in their day). Only
> > > the Master has the strength and competence to defend the initiates. Only
> > > the Master can defend the flock from the wolves that would devour them
> > > from within. Sant Thakar Singh - DO YOUR DUTY!
> >
> > Uh. . . I think there's a little projection going on here. Are you
> > plagued by this entity possession yourself? How do you know it occurs?
> > Can you produce others who have experienced the same?
> >
> > To tell the truth I think it's a bunch of BS. What you are terming
> > possessions are simple mental health issues.
>
> That might be true in some cases. There are also cases of entity possession.
Oh. . .so *that* explains you!
> > The devotees don't need
> > Singh as much as they need good mental health care.
> >
> > Therapy is the gateway to an authentic spiritual practice.
>
> What if the therapist is in need of therapy, himself? Are you saying a
> therapist is a Guru, who gives us spiritual light?
Certainly more spiritual light than you, O purveyor of darkness.
> > The
> > upwelling of deep issues that arise as a result of practice
> > must be processed to prepare the ground for the blessing of
> > realization.
>
> Realization will come as a result of Sat Guru Bhakti, and not as a result of
> treatment from a Therapist.
Realization may *appear* to come as the result of Sat Guru Bhakti, but there
is no way in heaven or hell that it's going to come as the result of devotion
to you.
--jodyr.
BTW: You're welcome for my opinion.
Robert Steinhaus
initiates of Sant Thakar Singh is a very reasonable and responsible
request. It is sadly not easy to provide the evidence that would be
fully satisfying to you and all reasonable men to prove the extent of
this problem. The majority of the most seriously entity afflicted are in
poor estate (It is true that at a certain level entity possession does
appear similar in some respects to mental illness but there are
significant differences). The most serious cases of entity possession
tend to be female initiates who tend to end up with weak volition and
control (basically sharing personal control with entity hosts). These
persons often talk in a succession of quite different relatively easily
identifiable entity voices with markedly different personalities. Large
numbers of entities (often hundreds a night) seem to wash through these
ladies and their mental conditions as frequently poor/unstable. The loss
of personal integrity in this condition of serial possession is great
and in all cases of which I am aware none of the persons who suffer from
these problems were told by Sant Thakar Singh or his appointed
initiating representatives that such a problem could result from taking
his initiation. I believe that honest seekers of truth deserve to know
if any risk of serious entity possession exists while following the
meditation practices of the Master prior to getting initiated.
Regrettably, the only agency in a position to access the exact extent of
the problem of entity possession among the initiates of Sant Thakar
Singh is his organization "Know Thyself as Soul" which has the initiate
address list. Initiates could be surveyed and statistics accumulated
(the organization makes periodic mailings and it would not be difficult
to includes a questioner to help resolve the problems extent). Know
Thyself as Soul chooses not to undertake this task (which only they are
in a position to do) and indeed makes all effort to restrict any
information on this subject from reaching the public.
I do not have allot of hard evidence I can produce to prove the
extent of this problem. I also would like to have better numbers
regarding the extent of the initiate entity possession problem as a
first step toward ending the serious ongoing suffering. Know Thyself as
Soul should do the responsible and compassionate thing and undertake the
assessment (I volunteer to help and provide some funds [mailing costs,
ect.] to that end).
Should persons that care remain silent regarding the problem of
entity possession until Know Thyself as Soul under pressure decides to
undertake a study of the problem? Suffer in silence has been the tacit
and sometimes overt suggesion of the representatives of the
organization. The suffering/loss of personal integrity is serious to
those afflicted and tour after tour the problem goes unresolved. The
problem must be addressed. The sufferers must be healed/protected. If
the truth is unpleasant and the actual state of affairs embarrassing
that is unfortunate. Honesty and compassion demand that the current
initiates be helped and protected and that honest seekers of truth be
informed prior to initiation of any potential risk to their well
being/personal integrity. It might be of some help to submit a request
for additional information regarding the extent of entity possession
problems among the initiates of Sant Thakar Singh to his organization
via email (only they are in a position to provide precise answers).
Email addresses for offices of Sant Thakar Singh's organization may be
found at
I am sorry that I can not produce on my own better numbers other than
the estimates I have gathered after attending numerous retreats and
tours of the Master. I am sorry that many of the most seriously
afflicted are not in a position to send in numerous corraborating
postings to make my case look better. I endeavor to reduce/end the
suffering and the lying about the issue of entity possession among the
initiates of the Master Sant Thakar Singh and I will continue to
struggle until the problem is faced/resolved.
The minimum duty to the Master is to provide basic safety to the
Initiates attached to him while they do the meditation practices he
advocates. A Master not willing/able to do this is not safe to follow.
It is important for Sant Thakar Singh to provide this basic level of
safety for his initiates.
jody
>
> The request for evidence of entity possession problems among the
> initiates of Sant Thakar Singh is a very reasonable and responsible
> request.
Until you comply with this request, your verbose musings remain
within the realm of your imagination.
--jodyr
[snip]
sh...@my-deja.com
I just read Steinhaus' latest article. Apparently, he still alleges that
between 20,000 to 60,000 souls associated with Thakar Singh Ji are possessed.
That would be a lot of possessed souls, if that were true.
Jody is right. Despite this latest article. It still remains an allegation.
There is no proof of the number, and I have seen no proof that even if there
were a number, that it had anything to do with the association with him
(Thakar).
I know little about his teachings, but if he is teaching what Kirpal Singh Ji
taught, then those teachings would not encourage entity possession at all.
IMHO.
Mr. Steinhaus, I think, if I were you, I would drop this issue. You are
alleging things which are reflecting on Sant Mat. This might offend the
Lord, himself. If he gets offended, there is no place to hide.
Michael Martin
A Sant Mat Guru
Robert Steinhaus
the entity possession problems among the initiates of Sant Thakar Singh.
In my humble opinion the problem is serious and deserves a study (by
"Know Thyself as Soul") to determine its extent. It does not serve the
greater good (and the health of the sufferers afflicted) to do and say
nothing. Literally over a decade (and over 4 tours of the Master) has
elapsed while the condition and estate of the seriously entity possessed
have not been improved. I can detect no indication that the Master or
his organization have any intention of doing anything on their own to
aleviate the suffering.
I am not anxious to invite wrath but I am also unwilling to say and
do nothing in the face of the suffering.
Bob Steinhaus
jodyr
[snip]
> I am not anxious to invite wrath but I am also unwilling to say and
> do nothing in the face of the suffering.
> Bob Steinhaus
Bob, the suffering is your own, and it appears to be only in your head.
Get help.
--jodyr.
sh...@my-deja.com
hone...@hotmail.com wrote:
Robert,
Isn't it strange that nobody has posted a reply about this, other than Jody
and me. If Thakar's satsang is that large, it seems that somebody would have
read this and replied to it, don't you think?
Michael Martin
> Thanks you for your kindness in reading my most recent posting regarding
> the entity possession problems among the initiates of Sant Thakar Singh.
> In my humble opinion the problem is serious and deserves a study (by
> "Know Thyself as Soul") to determine its extent. It does not serve the
> greater good (and the health of the sufferers afflicted) to do and say
> nothing. Literally over a decade (and over 4 tours of the Master) has
> elapsed while the condition and estate of the seriously entity possessed
> have not been improved. I can detect no indication that the Master or
> his organization have any intention of doing anything on their own to
> aleviate the suffering.
> I am not anxious to invite wrath but I am also unwilling to say and
> do nothing in the face of the suffering.
> Bob Steinhaus
>
Robert Steinhaus
> Robert,
>
> Isn't it strange that nobody has posted a reply about this, other than Jody
> and me. If Thakar's satsang is that large, it seems that somebody would have
> read this and replied to it, don't you think?
>
> Michael Martin
I also find it a little strange that no other Thakar initiates responded
to my posts. Entity possession is an issue the national organization
"Know Thyself as Soul" frequently skirts and has little or nothing to
say about publicly. Certainly some Thakar initiates do periodically scan
this newsgroup. If Thakar initiates have been present at large
gatherings of initiates during the visits of the Master I believe they
would have to concede that there are a significant number of initiates
that have and serious problems (loss of voluntary control of mind and
body). On several tours, at the man making center "Manav Kendra" in
Umqua Oregon, the back two or three rows of initiates (50 to 60 people
out of a group of about 300) were populated with persons who would
involuntarily jump, spasm, or cry out in disruptive but involuntary
ways. A larger group of initiates have more subtle symptoms that are
often more of emotional nature but these possessions can disrupt
relationships and in some cases viability in a job. It is not my
intention to give the Master a bad name but to get the problem addressed
(it is a very serious problem for those affected). I do not see signs
that anything has improved through the strategy of waiting and suffering
in silence. There is a natural sharing at a high level between the
Master and his initiates (to some extent the consciousness is blended).
At initiation the Master establishes an inner connection with the
initiate and places one of his radiant forms within the initiate's
being. What is supposed to happen is that the initiate is to rise up to
increasingly subtle levels of consciousness and inherit the noble high
qualities of the perfect Master. It appears that less noble qualities
can in some cases also be shared. I do not know why the problem of
entity possession is occurring among Thakar Singh initiates but I can
certainly say it is a problem. I am hoping steps will be taken to
address and end the problem.
It is my "unreasonable" belief that the Master must be responsible for
the basic safety of all initiates he is connected to in holy initiation
and that he can not ethically abandon them or leave them to be preyed
upon by adverse inner forces while they practice his meditations. Basic
practical protection against entity possession must be provided by the
Master for the path to be safe.
gck...@my-deja.com
hone...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Robert,
> >
> > Isn't it strange that nobody has posted a reply about this, other
than Jody
OK then,
I find it quite possible that such a problem exists in the following of
a man who is neither a legitimate master, or a successor to Kirpal
SIngh, and whose morality includes asking women devotees to sit on his
lap and kiss them (and worse). I have first hand reports of this, not
just rumors.
Thakar Singh is and absolute fraud, therefore cannot protect his
imitiates from negative entities.
His name should not be mentioned on the same page as Kirpal Singh,
excuse me if I say it.
sh...@my-deja.com
hone...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Robert,
> >
> > Isn't it strange that nobody has posted a reply about this, other than Jody
> > read this and replied to it, don't you think?
> >
> > Michael Martin
>
> I also find it a little strange that no other Thakar initiates responded
> to my posts.
Yes, if he has 200,000 followers, as you say.
Robert, I would like for somone else to come forward to corroborate your
allegations. As it is now, you appear to be the only one complaining about
it, and the 200,000 disciples are remaining silent. It is quite a strange
situation, really. I will ask publicly, right now, for some Thakar Singh Ji
initiates to step forward and comment on Mr. Steinhaus' allegations. I think
for the benefit of those who follow Sant Mat teachings, we should get this
cleared up. It has a tendency to put Sant Mat in a bad light.
Those who are following a True Sant Mat Guru will never be possessed. The
True Master will not allow it to happen. Even Satan, himself, is afraid of
the True Master.
I read Jay Kier's reply to this. Thanks, Jay. I now ask others to offer
their comments.
Apparently, Jay doesn't want this to be associated with Kirpal Singh Ji, just
as I am of the opinion that it should not be associated with the Sant Mat
line of Masters at Beas, Punjab, India.
Michael Martin
A Sant Mat Guru
>
>
Wand...@webtv.net
Thakar Singh.
In May 1988, an advertisement appeared in Time magazine about Singh's
new American tour. I contacted his US headquarters and learned that he
was coming to my city within days.
Some time later, at the local YMCA, a crowd of about twenty-five people
awaited his arrival. Singh was reserved,, distinguished looking,
quiet spoken and absolutely adored by his disciples , some who traveled
from surrounding States to be with him that night.
He first gave a long, rambling , not too interesting Satsang , then
initiated those who wanted to follow his path. They received his
version of Shaktipat, was taught his mantra ( which surprisingly turned
out to be one used by a number of other spiritual groups--who may have
taken it from him or his master.}
He was accessible, humorous and considerate of everyone at the meeting.
I was given a large packet of material and was not asked for any
contributions, then or in the weeks to follow.
I did not continue with his group because I could not honestly live up
to his somewhat ascetic requirements. Long hours of meditation,
vegetarianism, a disciplined life -style I could not honestly adhere to.
I still use his mantra, though, in some of my meditations.
Nothing happened at that meeting, absolutely nothing-- except kindness.
No entity possessions, no screaming , no craziness of any kind.
So I am surprised by Mr. Steinhaus's rather odd allegations. I believe
he is very wrong.
Singh's disciples have created a web site for their Master. They are
very aware of Mr. Steinhaus and what he is claiming. You may wish to
look at the site to learn more about, who I believe. is a genuinely
enlightened man.
sh...@my-deja.com
Thanks for your comments. I am happy to read them. Maybe Mr. Steinhaus will
reply to this.
Michael Martin