Shamata/Vipassana vs. Dzogchen.

[Philip Rosemond]

I would like to know the fundamental differences between
Shamata/Vipassana meditation techniques and Dzogchen in
Tibetan Buddhist practice. I believe this might make worthy dis-
cussion. I haven't found anyone put it into words in all of the
texts I've used. I do know this. Dzogchen reaches a point
beyond meditation practice. Beyond that all Dzogchen descriptions
seam to overlap Shamata and/or Vispassana. Is Dzogchen beyond
verbal description?
-Philip S. Rosemond.

[David Ross Mcirvine]

Crossposted to alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan

[Your Full Name]

In Dzogchen there are two practices taught in its Menngagde section. One
of them called trekcho, is like Vipassana or Mahamudra or teachings like
that. The other pracice, called togal, while based on doing the practice
of trekcho, is totally unique to the Dzogchen system and is totally
unique within the Buddhist teachings.

I hope this helps you with your question.

From Lama Tsewang Samdrub
all...@intouch.bc.ca

[Rich Haller]

Is togal the same thing that Pema Chodron calls tonglen in "Start Where
You Are"?

Rich Haller

[GuruBusters]

Hey, philip - see you at the seminar you posted. Im about 5'9" and weigh
155lbs. Ill wear a big shirt that says Ari.

See you there. Introduce yourself.

Ari

Philip Rosemond (flip...@speakeasy.org) wrote:
: I would like to know the fundamental differences between

: Shamata/Vipassana meditation techniques and Dzogchen in
: Tibetan Buddhist practice. I believe this might make worthy dis-
: cussion. I haven't found anyone put it into words in all of the
: texts I've used. I do know this. Dzogchen reaches a point
: beyond meditation practice. Beyond that all Dzogchen descriptions
: seam to overlap Shamata and/or Vispassana. Is Dzogchen beyond
: verbal description?
: -Philip S. Rosemond.

--
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[A]

In article <4lm17s$d...@platform.uoregon.edu> rha...@ns.uoregon.edu (Rich Haller) writes:

Is togal the same thing that Pema Chodron calls tonglen in "Start Where
You Are"?

---

no.

[Bill Dintzis]

>no.

OK time for some basic definitions.

Pema Chodron is talking about tong-len, "sending and taking" or "exchanging self
for others", which is part of lojong, or "mind-training." Tong-len is a basic
mahayana practice, which by the way is also taught as a Dzogchen preliminary
practice.

Togal is part of the traditional two aspects of Dzogchen completion-stage
practice, which is divided into trekcho ("cutting through" of concepts of mind,
etc) and togal (luminous seeing).

Tong-len , which the book you are talking about describes, is a very important,
powerful, and beneficial practice, which is said to enhance the discovery of
twofold egolessness (egolessness of self and other), as well as cultivate
bodhicitta (the heart motivation of enlightenment). If you want paralells, it
is similar to the metta practice in Theravada (Insight meditation) also. It
could be said to be part of trekcho (cutting through) aspect of Dzogchen,
because it cuts through the artificial concepts of self and others. Therefore,
it will enhance the understanding and experience of togal when and if one gets
to that poing (togal is usually kept secret until the Dzogchen master decides
the student is ready for it.)

[Bernard D. Tremblay]

A (rei...@rz.mathematik.uni-muenchen.de) wrote:
: In article <4lm17s$d...@platform.uoregon.edu> rha...@ns.uoregon.edu (Rich Haller) writes:
: Is togal the same thing that Pema Chodron calls tonglen in "Start Where
: You Are"?
: ---
: no.

I think this answer deserves amplification. _No_.

KC:
--
|---------------- -----------------|
| Bernard D. Tremblay (Ben) | Ben Tremblay & Associates |
http://ccn.cs.dal.ca/~ab006/ | ../~ab006/gff/gff.html
|------------- ----------------|
| Confusion is a kinky form of enlightenment, clarity in drag. |
| Uncertainty is certainty that has stepped on a banana peel. |
| Negativity is brilliance competing with itself. |
|----------------- Sherab Chodzin Kohn ---|