How to win friends etc...
Jeff E
http://www.enlightenment-magazine.org/
From an advert in the Washington Post - what a great way to get support
from the people of America at this time - compare the USA to Hitler ! Also
some history lessons are needed - to say all of Germany was with Hitler when
he started his war is simply not true.
"Remember, the US government rose against Hitler in order to stop
destruction. Is it wise now for the USA to play the role of Hitler and
initiate a world-wide destructive program?
We would never like to compare President Bush with Hitler, but if the World
War starts from this, what else could be the interpretation? Every military
chief who waged a war at any time put forward very valid reasons to wage
war. But it is the act of war that is devastating to the world. It doesn't
matter who plays the role of so-called bravery.
In the beginning, when Hitler started his war, all of Germany was with him.
Only the outside forces were there to counterbalance his wild fury.
Due to the urgency of the situation it is being suggested that if someone is
in a position to advance, rather than donate, one billion dollars, this
advance will enable us to start the program immediately, and we will return
this advance from the donations that are expected to follow."
http://www.invincibledefence.org/ad_proposal_world_peace/Proposal_World_Peac
e_2.html
John A. Stanley
"Jeff E" <parad...@winshop.com> wrote:
>This was from the latest enlightenment magazine
>http://www.enlightenment-magazine.org/
>From an advert in the Washington Post - what a great way to get support
>from the people of America at this time - compare the USA to Hitler ! Also
>some history lessons are needed - to say all of Germany was with Hitler when
>he started his war is simply not true.
That Hitler comparison is utterly retarded and right up there with
Falwell/Robertson's moronic commentary. I wonder who the hell came up
with that one. Did Sudarsha start working for the TMO again?
--
John A. Stanley Remove delicious mucilaginous vegetable to email
TantricOne
This is truly sad, because whoever wrote it has obviously been
in the cave too long, long enough to lose their humanity while
feeling superior to it.
justathought
As a 'tator and "siddha," I'm once again absolutely stunned at the folly of the
Movement's approach. Once again, MMY et al seem determined to marginalize
themselves.
Wouldn't it be so much more productive to say:
- the world is in a very dangerous position
- a terrible blow was dealt to the US and resulted in the loss of thousands of
innocent lives
- we are faced with the difficult question of how to respond
- many wise people in the US and around the world question the idea of a
precipitous military response, understanding that violence only begats violence
- at the same time, we also know that negotiation is useless in this situation
- fortunately, there IS a solution
- just as it is a scientific fact that meditation and related practices relieve
the stress and suffering of individuals, we have proven that group practice
alleviates tensions on a communal, national and global scale
- this information has been printed in the most respected journals in the field
- now is the time to act on this information and create groups to prevent the
current situation from getting out of hand
- this works because it gets at the root of the problem
- it is not expensive and will not divert funds away from other actions to
ensure public security and efforts to bring the culprits to justice
- it is non-violent and does not depend on negotiation
- it transforms the enemy from the level of silence
- the alternatives to this approach may lead to unimagineable suffering for
humanity
There's only one hope left. It's the ultimate Hail Mary play - get Mike Love to
talk to Dubya's dad.
Eve_69
couple paragraphs. Of course MMY aludes to the fact that all of our
liberties are going to be shortened by having more powerful government
intelligence gathering (spying), similar to the 'Red Scare." But he didn't
have to have it put that way. Prophets always have to stick their foot in
their mouths, then get martyred. Besides, Bush doesn't have any of Hitler's
intellectual abilities or oratorical ability. He falls short of H as a
personality while he overshoots H morally. I'd say the comparison is way
off. TM Movement loses my vote on this one.
John A. Stanley
Apparently, that somebody is MMY himself. I heard that this topic was
raised at a meeting in the dome last night, and supposedly Bevan and
others told MMY that the Hitler language was too strong, but MMY
insisted that it be there. For the record, I wasn't at the meeting in
the dome and the person who told me about it wasn't there either but
heard about it from someone who was.
Petrus
"justathought" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
news:fl1s7.4486$ev2....@www.newsranger.com...
<snip>
> - fortunately, there IS a solution
>
> - just as it is a scientific fact that meditation and related practices
relieve
> the stress and suffering of individuals, we have proven that group
practice
> alleviates tensions on a communal, national and global scale
But you haven't proven that. It is just a religious statement of faith
started by the TM0.
>
> - this information has been printed in the most respected journals in the
field
Eh.. the Maharishi Effect has been the source of mayor stress release
(through laughter) in the respected academia.
Have you ever looked at the crime stats of Fairfield IA. No proof of any ME
active there or anywhere else for that matter.
see. http://www.unstress4less.org/Maharishi_Effect-mdefect.htm
>
> - now is the time to act on this information and create groups to prevent
the
> current situation from getting out of hand
You have already done that for some 20 years. Has not worked. How many do
you have bouncing on their buns for worldpeace in India. Right now? It is
supposed to be over 7000. Much good they did.
>
> - this works because it gets at the root of the problem
No it does not. The root of the problem is the evil side of man. TM does
nothing to inprove the evil in man. Just look at the crime stats of
Fairfield. With 20% TM ers. As bad the the next town. Might have
something to do with the fact that TM makes a thief a better thief?
> - it is not expensive and will not divert funds away from other actions
Did you know that Big M wants $1 billion to get going? Last time I checked
my back pocket, I thought that was expensive.
> to
> ensure public security and efforts to bring the culprits to justice
That is what Bush is doing with out wasting our money on the TM faith.
> - it is non-violent and does not depend on negotiation
You have never seen Big M negotiating with cities and countries have you?
Luckily they did not bite on it.
> - it transforms the enemy from the level of silence
Nice saying for religious faith. But no proof..
>
> - the alternatives to this approach may lead to unimagineable suffering
for
> humanity
>
>
>
> There's only one hope left. It's the ultimate Hail Mary play - get Mike
Love to
> talk to Dubya's dad.
>
ROTFL
>
>
Steve Ralph
wrote:
And you were telling us all what a great warrior yogi M is.
Make up your mind - at least he is consistent, which is more than you
are.
Steve Ralph
Petrus
"John A. Stanley" <j...@okranatel.net> wrote in message
news:btHs749z...@okranatel.net...
> In article <9oovs0$o0j$1...@gnamma.connect.com.au>,
> "Jeff E" <parad...@winshop.com> wrote:
> >This was from the latest enlightenment magazine
> >http://www.enlightenment-magazine.org/
> >From an advert in the Washington Post - what a great way to get support
> >from the people of America at this time - compare the USA to Hitler !
Also
> >some history lessons are needed - to say all of Germany was with Hitler
when
> >he started his war is simply not true.
>
> That Hitler comparison is utterly retarded and right up there with
> Falwell/Robertson's moronic commentary.
While you already know my stance on the Falwell/Robertson's legalistic
remarks, might I point out that your beloved Big M seems to take it a step
further. While they blamed what they thought of as the evil doers in this
country, *ALL YOU SIDDHAS* (including our good citizens) are to blame for
this according to Big M. Yes you did not know that? If you had only
sacrificed your daily schedule and gone bouncing on your buns in the domes,
according to the TM0 this would not have happened.
> I wonder who the hell came up
> with that one.
Your beloved Big M.
> Did Sudarsha start working for the TMO again?
I believe suds would have had more taste than that.
John A. Stanley
"Petrus" <NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE> wrote:
>While you already know my stance on the Falwell/Robertson's legalistic
>remarks
Actually, I don't because unless you're following up to one of my
articles your articles are killfiled and I never see them.
Kurt Arbuckle
: In article <qT7s7.3$Jb....@news-west.eli.net>,
: "Petrus" <NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE> wrote:
:>While you already know my stance on the Falwell/Robertson's legalistic
:>remarks
: Actually, I don't because unless you're following up to one of my
: articles your articles are killfiled and I never see them.
I also don't know, because unless someone quotes him, or I read one
on a lark, I never read his stuff either. If only everyone would
do that.
Kurt
Eve_69
dhanur veda then you will read that I said it was a friend's opinion who
didn't want to post, barf-rag, and you would know that I haven't sacrificed
one moments integrity. Dick! So fuck off and shove your head up your ass.
Yeah that's right! I'll descend immediately to my own level. And if you
met me you would see one warrior, trash!
"Steve Ralph" <steve...@sralph.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3bb10a32...@news.demon.co.uk...
John A. Stanley
I only recently bothered to figure out my newsreader's killfile
function when an influx of idiocy on misc.rural prompted me to do so.
It's actually a scorefile and more sophisticated than most killfiles in
that it lets the user assign a value, negative or positive, to a
character string (location of string can also be specified, i.e. in
message body or specific header lines) with the article being marked
read if the score goes below zero. It's very slick, and it does wonders
for the signal to noise ratio.
eki
eve...@hotmail.com kirjoitteleskenteli:
>
>I don't need to play on your level fuckhead but if you read my post about
>dhanur veda then you will read that I said it was a friend's opinion who
>didn't want to post, barf-rag, and you would know that I haven't sacrificed
>one moments integrity. Dick! So fuck off and shove your head up your ass.
>Yeah that's right! I'll descend immediately to my own level. And if you
>met me you would see one warrior, trash!
>
>
Bitch(?),
In case your a xerxess
you just made my day a mess
someone might call it a bless
but don't wann a woodie with duress
BTW, is Xena lesbian?
Steve Ralph
wrote:
>I don't need to play on your level fuckhead but if you read my post about
>dhanur veda then you will read that I said it was a friend's opinion who
>didn't want to post, barf-rag, and you would know that I haven't sacrificed
>one moments integrity. Dick! So fuck off and shove your head up your ass.
>Yeah that's right! I'll descend immediately to my own level. And if you
>met me you would see one warrior, trash!
>
Haha! If I stick my head far enough up my ass, will I reach your
level, O tranquil one?
Eve_69
"Steve Ralph" <steve...@sralph.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3bb19f8...@news.demon.co.uk...
willytex
Thread: A Bhogi Crotch
Subject: Miss Eve-cunnilingus.
Author: willytex
Date: 09/26/2001
> Eve_69 wrote
> I'll descend immediately to my own level.
> And if you met me you would see one warrior, trash!
Eve - Yes, with a handle like yours, Miss Evening-cunnilingus, we can
expect the most cogent posts on this newsgroup! Why are you looking here
for a joke; obviously the 'joke' is between your own legs?
justathought
>
>
>"justathought" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
>news:fl1s7.4486$ev2....@www.newsranger.com...
><snip>
>> - fortunately, there IS a solution
>
I was merely suggesting the approach I would have taken to write the ad - i.e.
to present the best face and not totally put off the intended audience. As
someone who's work is vaguely related to advertising, I thought I'd give 'em a
little free advice.
>
>> - just as it is a scientific fact that meditation and related practices
>relieve
>> the stress and suffering of individuals, we have proven that group
>practice
>> alleviates tensions on a communal, national and global scale
>
>But you haven't proven that. It is just a religious statement of faith
>started by the TM0.
Again, just suggesting a way to present it.
But it's not whether I'VE proven it. Apparently impressive studies have been
published in well-respected journals and I, as a more or less lay-person, have
to assume they had a reason to publish them.
>
>>
>> - this information has been printed in the most respected journals in the
>field
>
>Eh.. the Maharishi Effect has been the source of mayor stress release
>(through laughter) in the respected academia.
>Have you ever looked at the crime stats of Fairfield IA. No proof of any ME
>active there or anywhere else for that matter.
>see. http://www.unstress4less.org/Maharishi_Effect-mdefect.htm
>
>>
>> - now is the time to act on this information and create groups to prevent
>the
>> current situation from getting out of hand
>
>You have already done that for some 20 years. Has not worked. How many do
>you have bouncing on their buns for worldpeace in India. Right now? It is
>supposed to be over 7000. Much good they did.
>>
>> - this works because it gets at the root of the problem
>
>No it does not. The root of the problem is the evil side of man. TM does
>nothing to inprove the evil in man.
Meditation that transcends - TM or otherwise, as long as it transcends (which TM
obviously doesn't always do) - DOES get at the root of the problem - i.e. our
false beliefs about the nature of life and who we are.
Let's face it, we're in the thick of it. We're bombarded from all sides by
things that take us away from who we are. It's constant and there's not a
second of silence. It's no big surprise that spiritual growth is slow. I know
that long-time TMers often bash themselves over the head for not being "further
ahead" than they think they are, but we also don't always give ourselves enough
credit.
Saying TM "does nothing" to root out the evil in man is putting it way too
strong. (Leaving aside the question of whether we define the root problem as
"evil" or "ignorance.")
Just look at the crime stats of
>Fairfield. With 20% TM ers. As bad the the next town. Might have
>something to do with the fact that TM makes a thief a better thief?
>
>> - it is not expensive and will not divert funds away from other actions
>
>Did you know that Big M wants $1 billion to get going? Last time I checked
>my back pocket, I thought that was expensive.
Relative to the funds that will get appropriated for "America's New War," that's
chump change.
Of course, if I was doing the strategizing, I wouldn't be making it a
fundraiser. I'd want to say "We using our own funds to create X, and - mark our
words - the result will be Y."
>
>> to
>> ensure public security and efforts to bring the culprits to justice
>
>That is what Bush is doing with out wasting our money on the TM faith.
As I always state, I'm not certain MMY's approach works on a national and global
scale, but I'm also not certain it doesn't. I do know how it works on the
individual level, though, so I'm willing to give it a shot.
The difficulty here is that, even though there have been attempts to put the
"Maharishi Effect" into practice, it's extremely difficult to quantify. When
there were the claims about 1 per cent in cities, I was instantly dubious
because it's difficult to have any control and to know how many people are
actually practicing. Even if a city had one per cent initiated, the number
practicing would be much lower because of the drop-off rate.
Even when you get specifically-created groups for specific situations, there's
also the question of how "powerful" siddhas are in their practice. We're
neophytes.
But again, based on my own experience, I say it's worth trying.
>> - it is non-violent and does not depend on negotiation
>
>You have never seen Big M negotiating with cities and countries have you?
>Luckily they did not bite on it.
>
>> - it transforms the enemy from the level of silence
>
>Nice saying for religious faith. But no proof..
>>
>> - the alternatives to this approach may lead to unimagineable suffering
>for
>> humanity
>>
>> There's only one hope left. It's the ultimate Hail Mary play - get Mike
>Love to
>> talk to Dubya's dad.
>>
>
>ROTFL
>
Glad you got a laugh out of this.
willytex
Thread: Trash
Subject: One warrior trash to another.
Author: willytex
Date: 09/26/2001
> Eve_69 wrote
> And if you met me you would see one warrior, trash!
Eve - So, you wanna duke it out? Yes, I would like to see an 'Eve_69'
warrior trash in the duke stance. How will I recognize you Sir, or is that
Madame? Can you meet with me at the corner of Sixth and Lamar, in Austin,
Texas, around 6:30 A.M., any day, except when it is snowing; I'll bring a
camera.
P.S. There are many Greyhound buses, from all points south, including
Mexico City, arriving here daily, so please advise as to the approximate
time of your arrival so that I can get a shot of you lumbering off the big
blue bus!
If you are hitchhiking, ask your driver to please let you off in front of
the Salvation Army; they will help you find a place in line at the soup
kitchen, or direct you to the nearest office of the INS or Free Clinic.
If you arrive in the very early morning, you may encounter several people
gathered on the corner, and they may proposition you with various offers in
cash and kind; ignore them; they are impostors.
Your ever well-wisher,
willytrash
Petrus
> In article <cD7s7.1$Jb....@news-west.eli.net>, Petrus says...
> >
> >
> >"justathought" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
> >news:fl1s7.4486$ev2....@www.newsranger.com...
> ><snip>
> >> - fortunately, there IS a solution
> >
>
> I was merely suggesting the approach I would have taken to write the ad -
i.e.
> to present the best face and not totally put off the intended audience. As
> someone who's work is vaguely related to advertising, I thought I'd give
'em a
> little free advice.
>
I understand.
> >
> >> - just as it is a scientific fact that meditation and related practices
> >relieve
> >> the stress and suffering of individuals, we have proven that group
> >practice
> >> alleviates tensions on a communal, national and global scale
> >
> >But you haven't proven that. It is just a religious statement of faith
> >started by the TM0.
>
> Again, just suggesting a way to present it.
>
> But it's not whether I'VE proven it. Apparently impressive studies have
been
> published in well-respected journals and I, as a more or less lay-person,
have
> to assume they had a reason to publish them.
The question is do you take the TM0's so called impressive studies at face
value, or do you want to see if their sales force is actually embellishing
their findings to the point of fraudulent claims.
There is a website by mr Skolnick that explains how the TM0 snookered the
journal of the AMA into publishing some of their balony.
http://www.aaskolnick.com/mav.htm
Re the ME or as some call it, the Maharishu Defect, please check out the
following:
"Finally, we do not pretend to resolve two difficult but important practical
issues. First, to what extent should the scientific community devote time,
effort, and journal space to debates over unconventional theories, at the
expense of more conventional work that is more likely to be fruitful? We
offer two brief observations. First, when research is conducted on behalf of
an organized group (as was O88), its results will often find publication in
arenas that do not afford an opportunity for informed rebuttal. Second, such
rebuttals (as we have shown) need not be overly expansive to undermine an
unorthodox theory."
For his complete peer review of the ME (O88) see
http://www.trancenet.org/research/markovsky2.shtml
That is a nice theory, but if you look at the crime stats of Faifield Iowa,
home of the MUM, with a 20% TMer base, you will see that the crime rate has
steadily increased over the last 25 years. And the crime rate of Iowa is
higher that that of Wisconsin and Arkansas.
>
> Let's face it, we're in the thick of it. We're bombarded from all sides
by
> things that take us away from who we are. It's constant and there's not a
> second of silence. It's no big surprise that spiritual growth is slow. I
know
> that long-time TMers often bash themselves over the head for not being
"further
> ahead" than they think they are, but we also don't always give ourselves
enough
> credit.
That is a nice religious belief system that you have bought into, but it
does not explain what is happening in Fairfield Iowa, on the contrary,
Fairfield is proof that your belief system is false.
>
> Saying TM "does nothing" to root out the evil in man is putting it way too
> strong. (Leaving aside the question of whether we define the root problem
as
> "evil" or "ignorance.")
Show me evidence. Explain Fairfield Iowa to me.
www.unstress4less.org/Maharishi_effect-mdefect-iowa.htm
www.unstress4less.org/maharishi_effect-mdefect-fairfield.htm
Explain this failure below to me.
"He brought in instructors from the Maharishi University of Latin America
who tried to teach Transcendental Meditation to 600 prisoners to change
their behavior; it failed and cost taxpayers $300,000. He tried,
unsuccessfully, to make TM part of the elementary-school curriculum. "
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/archive/1997/12/15/NEWS842
0.dtl
The only ignorance that I see is the ignorance of evil existing.
>
>
>> Just look at the crime stats of
> >Fairfield. With 20% TM ers. As bad the the next town. Might have
> >something to do with the fact that TM makes a thief a better thief?
> >
> >> - it is not expensive and will not divert funds away from other actions
> >
> >Did you know that Big M wants $1 billion to get going? Last time I
checked
> >my back pocket, I thought that was expensive.
>
> Relative to the funds that will get appropriated for "America's New War,"
that's
> chump change.
If it works maybe, but the proof is already in that it does not work.
http://www.unstress4less.org/Maharishi_effect-mdefect-peer.htm
>
> Of course, if I was doing the strategizing, I wouldn't be making it a
> fundraiser. I'd want to say "We using our own funds to create X, and -
mark our
> words - the result will be Y."
But you would be (ph)lying.
>
>
> >
> >> to
> >> ensure public security and efforts to bring the culprits to justice
> >
> >That is what Bush is doing with out wasting our money on the TM faith.
>
> As I always state, I'm not certain MMY's approach works on a national and
global
> scale, but I'm also not certain it doesn't. I do know how it works on the
> individual level, though, so I'm willing to give it a shot.
That is admirable, but spend your own money on it not my taxes. Big M. is a
multi billionaire, why is he not willing to put his money where his mouth
is? Because he has already seen the results.
>
> The difficulty here is that, even though there have been attempts to put
the
> "Maharishi Effect" into practice, it's extremely difficult to quantify.
Not at all. The theory is very clear. If you have X numbers of meditators,
you will see a *reduction* in the crime rate.
"Discovery of the Maharishi Effect: . one percent of the population
practicing the Transcendental Meditation Program in any city reduces the
crime rate, accident rate, and sickness rate. This means overall increasing
purity in the collective consciousness of the city."
http://www.alltm.org/Maharishi/Maharishi_year2.html
It is quite black & white. Except when it does not work, then we have to
find all sorts of reasons. Would not want all those sidhas asking for their
money back.
> When
> there were the claims about 1 per cent in cities, I was instantly dubious
> because it's difficult to have any control and to know how many people are
> actually practicing. Even if a city had one per cent initiated, the
number
> practicing would be much lower because of the drop-off rate.
You don't have that problem in Fairfield, they have a 20% TM population.
>
> Even when you get specifically-created groups for specific situations,
there's
> also the question of how "powerful" siddhas are in their practice. We're
> neophytes.
Again that is not a problem.
"Discovery of the Extended Maharishi Effect : the square root of one percent
of the population practicing the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi
Program together in one place produces coherence in collective
consciousness, promoting positive and progressive trends in society."
http://www.alltm.org/Maharishi/Maharishi_year2.html
There is no mentioning in their definition as to the quality of the
participant. All we need is numbers.
>
> But again, based on my own experience, I say it's worth trying.
>
Based on the results of 25 years of Sidhis, I would say don't waste you
money.
<snip>
> >>
> >> There's only one hope left. It's the ultimate Hail Mary play - get
Mike
> >Love to
> >> talk to Dubya's dad.
> >>
> >ROTFL
> >
> Glad you got a laugh out of this.
Did not intend to offend, it just sounded funny.
Eve_69
too willytex, but just being a pompous ass doesn't mean that I lump you
entirely with SP, so again, whatever dude. Later
"willytex" <will...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91288C7F7863...@216.166.62.32...
Eve_69
"willytex" <will...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91288C7F7863...@216.166.62.32...
Petrus
Please get a hold of your selves. This is a newsgroup that discusses the
negatives and positives that can be derived from the practice of
Transcendental Meditation. Please do not show us how low you can go.
Please do not be this kind of example of what the TM program has done for
you.
"willytex" <will...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns912864E9F74F0...@216.166.62.32...
Petrus
really feel confident in the $1 billion dollar plan to save this world and
bring world peace of his illustrious leader.
"willytex" <will...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91288C7F7863...@216.166.62.32...
Steve Ralph
wrote:
>That was Steve Ralph not Perino, as if!
Thats cool. My cyclic alter ego is Perrino. But you dolts here on
a.m.t are too =>>> IDOIT reTARDED
Steve Ralph
wrote:
>Ah... The conflict resolution capabilities of a confessed Sidha. Makes you
>really feel confident in the $1 billion dollar plan to save this world and
>bring world peace of his illustrious leader.
>
Actually, my little Brahmin voices are telling me to buy a good tent
and move to Antartica, then I will be lurking with in tent
Steve Ralph
wrote:
>Gentlemen,
>
>Please get a hold of your selves.
We are not a bunch of wankers here, whatever you may think, so please
don't insult us in this way
>This is a newsgroup that discusses the
>negatives and positives that can be derived from the practice of
>Transcendental Meditation. Please do not show us how low you can go.
>Please do not be this kind of example of what the TM program has done for
>you.
>
Haha! You should see what we were like before!
Petrus
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:01:46 GMT, "Petrus" <NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE>
> wrote:
>
> >Gentlemen,
> >
> >Please get a hold of your selves.
>
> We are not a bunch of wankers here, whatever you may think, so please
> don't insult us in this way
No idea what you are talking about. But I think I do not wish to know.
>
> >This is a newsgroup that discusses the
> >negatives and positives that can be derived from the practice of
> >Transcendental Meditation. Please do not show us how low you can go.
> >Please do not be this kind of example of what the TM program has done for
> >you.
> >
> Haha! You should see what we were like before!
I can't imagine any different. As Charlie (I believe) said. Tm makes a
thief a better thief. So you are just a better, whatever you were.
Eve_69
"Steve Ralph" <steve...@sralph.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3bb339f6...@news.demon.co.uk...
Eve_69
"Petrus" <NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE> wrote in message
news:FlJs7.45$3G1....@news-west.eli.net...
justathought
>
>
>"justathought" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
>news:e7ms7.5915$ev2....@www.newsranger.com...
>> In article <cD7s7.1$Jb....@news-west.eli.net>, Petrus says...
>been
>> published in well-respected journals and I, as a more or less lay-person,
>have
>> to assume they had a reason to publish them.
>
>The question is do you take the TM0's so called impressive studies at face
>value,
No, I've never claimed to
or do you want to see if their sales force is actually embellishing
>their findings to the point of fraudulent claims.
>There is a website by mr Skolnick that explains how the TM0 snookered the
>journal of the AMA into publishing some of their balony.
>http://www.aaskolnick.com/mav.htm
>
>Re the ME or as some call it, the Maharishu Defect, please check out the
>following:
>"Finally, we do not pretend to resolve two difficult but important practical
>issues. First, to what extent should the scientific community devote time,
>effort, and journal space to debates over unconventional theories, at the
>expense of more conventional work that is more likely to be fruitful? We
>offer two brief observations. First, when research is conducted on behalf of
>an organized group (as was O88), its results will often find publication in
>arenas that do not afford an opportunity for informed rebuttal. Second, such
>rebuttals (as we have shown) need not be overly expansive to undermine an
>unorthodox theory."
>For his complete peer review of the ME (O88) see
>http://www.trancenet.org/research/markovsky2.shtml
>
Rebuttals need not be overly expansive to undermine an unorthodox theory? Isn't
that another way of saying "We can write off any strange idea we want."
I've spent enough time at trancenet to know that it always promises the
knock-out blows, but never delivers. (Like the so-called German study, which is
completely out of line with the dozens and dozens of people I know who have quit
TM over the years ... and NONE of whom reports any of the problems from that
study. Ninety per cent of the time they say, "I really should start again."
Perhaps that's being polite, and perhaps some people have had problems. But
far, far from the majority.)
The tone of trancenet - flogging caricatures of Maharishi, making fun of his
voice, etc. - undermines its credibility.
>> Meditation that transcends - TM or otherwise, as long as it transcends
>(which TM
>> obviously doesn't always do) - DOES get at the root of the problem - i.e.
>our
>> false beliefs about the nature of life and who we are.
>
>That is a nice theory, but if you look at the crime stats of Faifield Iowa,
>home of the MUM, with a 20% TMer base, you will see that the crime rate has
>steadily increased over the last 25 years. And the crime rate of Iowa is
>higher that that of Wisconsin and Arkansas.
Like I say, I accept TM on the individual level. Are the crimes in Fairfield
being committed by 'tators??
>
>>
>> Let's face it, we're in the thick of it. We're bombarded from all sides
>by
>> things that take us away from who we are. It's constant and there's not a
>> second of silence. It's no big surprise that spiritual growth is slow. I
>know
>> that long-time TMers often bash themselves over the head for not being
>"further
>> ahead" than they think they are, but we also don't always give ourselves
>enough
>> credit.
>
>That is a nice religious belief system that you have bought into, but it
>does not explain what is happening in Fairfield Iowa, on the contrary,
>Fairfield is proof that your belief system is false.
>
If you want to call it a belief system or faith, I don’t really care. As you
well know, faith is important. I’m not going to apologize because for having
faith in the value of meditation. But faith builds on experience and, for me,
meditation has been wonderful. As Maharishi says, though (in Science of
Being...), the ultimate experience does not come through meditation, but through
devotion. Again, just speaking for me, meditation is an important part of
devotion because it brings that balance and joy that feel like nothing so much
as grace and blessedness.
Of course, you can’t ascribe grace to anything outside of your religion. Any
belief that isn’t based within it is, by definition, a lie. (I just hope you
understand that, if I call you on that – as I did in the “Judgement Day” thread
– it’s partly a reaction to the fairly constant barrage of voices on TV, the
Internet and elsewhere telling me that, if I don’t hold a particular belief,
then I’m no more worthy of Paradise, say, some demented suicide hijacker.)
>>
>
>The only ignorance that I see is the ignorance of evil existing.
>>
>>
>>> Just look at the crime stats of
>> >Fairfield. With 20% TM ers. As bad the the next town. Might have
>> >something to do with the fact that TM makes a thief a better thief?
>> >
>> >> - it is not expensive and will not divert funds away from other actions
>> >
>> >Did you know that Big M wants $1 billion to get going? Last time I
>checked
>> >my back pocket, I thought that was expensive.
>>
>> Relative to the funds that will get appropriated for "America's New War,"
>that's
>> chump change.
>
>If it works maybe, but the proof is already in that it does not work.
>http://www.unstress4less.org/Maharishi_effect-mdefect-peer.htm
>
>>
>> Of course, if I was doing the strategizing, I wouldn't be making it a
>> fundraiser. I'd want to say "We using our own funds to create X, and -
>mark our
>> words - the result will be Y."
>
>But you would be (ph)lying.
>
Pierced by a rapier-like wit - touché!
>>
>>
>> >
>> >> to
>> >> ensure public security and efforts to bring the culprits to justice
>> >
>> >That is what Bush is doing with out wasting our money on the TM faith.
>>
>> As I always state, I'm not certain MMY's approach works on a national and
>global
>> scale, but I'm also not certain it doesn't. I do know how it works on the
>> individual level, though, so I'm willing to give it a shot.
>
>That is admirable, but spend your own money on it not my taxes. Big M. is a
>multi billionaire, why is he not willing to put his money where his mouth
>is? Because he has already seen the results.
Well, Maharishi is no multi-billionaire, but I agree with you - they oughtta put
their money where their mouth is. I've said it before (and there, I said it
again).
>>
>> The difficulty here is that, even though there have been attempts to put
>the
>> "Maharishi Effect" into practice, it's extremely difficult to quantify.
>
>Not at all. The theory is very clear. If you have X numbers of meditators,
>you will see a *reduction* in the crime rate.
The theory is clear but, as say, when it comes to cities, you can't know if
you've got one per cent of the population actually practicing TM. I doubt it's
ever been achieved in any major city. One per cent initiations, maybe, but not
one per cent practicing.
And this is why I believe they shoot themselves in the foot by making the
claims. (I think Bob Brigante has offered up some good thoughts on this aspect
of the marketing of TM.)
>> Even when you get specifically-created groups for specific situations,
>there's
>> also the question of how "powerful" siddhas are in their practice. We're
>> neophytes.
>
>Again that is not a problem.
>"Discovery of the Extended Maharishi Effect : the square root of one percent
>of the population practicing the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi
>Program together in one place produces coherence in collective
>consciousness, promoting positive and progressive trends in society."
>http://www.alltm.org/Maharishi/Maharishi_year2.html
>There is no mentioning in their definition as to the quality of the
>participant. All we need is numbers.
>
And, here, as I said is where it is EASIER to quantify what the effect should
be. Again, see the type of critique that has been done by Bob Brigante.
Funny, when I start to backpedal, I start to sound like those who try to explain
why their predicted time of Armaggedon didn't come to pass. We should start to
see some more of this - I note that at least Ed and Rexella Van Impe are stating
definitively that this is IT.
Over and out........
Petrus
"Eve_69" <eve...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HULs7.49660$707.27...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> That's cool! So now I must be a great Satanist! Roll over Anton! LOL
>
Excuse me? Would you care to explain.
Petrus
face
> >value,
>
> No, I've never claimed to
Just a question
<snip>>
> Rebuttals need not be overly expansive to undermine an unorthodox theory?
Isn't
> that another way of saying "We can write off any strange idea we want."
>
I think what he means is that if someone comes up with the idea that 2+2=5,
you should not spend a lot of time trying to debunk it.
> I've spent enough time at trancenet to know that it always promises the
> knock-out blows, but never delivers. (Like the so-called German study,
which is
> completely out of line with the dozens and dozens of people I know who
have quit
> TM over the years ... and NONE of whom reports any of the problems from
that
> study.
If you go through the archive, you will find several people explaining that
the reason they quit was RIA relaxation induced anxiety. My wife had
anxiety attacks from starting the sidhis. Why I do not think that this
happens to the majority of TMers, one should be made aware of those pitfalls
before you start.
> Ninety per cent of the time they say, "I really should start again."
> Perhaps that's being polite, and perhaps some people have had problems.
But
> far, far from the majority.)
I agree.
>
> The tone of trancenet - flogging caricatures of Maharishi, making fun of
his
> voice, etc. - undermines its credibility.
Haven't read that one yet.
>
>
> >> Meditation that transcends - TM or otherwise, as long as it transcends
> >(which TM
> >> obviously doesn't always do) - DOES get at the root of the problem -
i.e.
> >our
> >> false beliefs about the nature of life and who we are.
> >
> >That is a nice theory, but if you look at the crime stats of Faifield
Iowa,
> >home of the MUM, with a 20% TMer base, you will see that the crime rate
has
> >steadily increased over the last 25 years. And the crime rate of Iowa is
> >higher that that of Wisconsin and Arkansas.
>
>
> Like I say, I accept TM on the individual level. Are the crimes in
Fairfield
> being committed by 'tators??
That is not the issue. The issue is that based on TM0 promises, the crime
rate should have plummeted down to an *ideal society* that is free from
crime. That is not happening in Fairfield IA. Nor any other place with
plenty of Sidhas as in Boone County. This would discredit the life
changing capabilities of the TM practice. TM might give someone more rest,
someone else flashy hallucinations, etc But to make the claim that it make
someone a "better" person. The proof is in the pudding. And in Fairfield
IA and Boone it seems the pudding is burnt. Spent some time on this
newsgroup and tell me if these TMers are any less stressed than the guy down
the street.
> >> Let's face it, we're in the thick of it. We're bombarded from all
sides
> >by
> >> things that take us away from who we are. It's constant and there's
not a
> >> second of silence. It's no big surprise that spiritual growth is slow.
I
> >know
> >> that long-time TMers often bash themselves over the head for not being
> >"further
> >> ahead" than they think they are, but we also don't always give
ourselves
> >enough
> >> credit.
> >
> >That is a nice religious belief system that you have bought into, but it
> >does not explain what is happening in Fairfield Iowa, on the contrary,
> >Fairfield is proof that your belief system is false.
> >
>
> If you want to call it a belief system or faith, I don't really care. As
you
> well know, faith is important.
Absolutely. Faith is substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things
not seen.
> I'm not going to apologize because for having
> faith in the value of meditation.
I would not ask for an apology.
> But faith builds on experience and, for me,
> meditation has been wonderful.
I would not argue that with your personal experiences. I know many people
that have experienced positive effects from TM.
> As Maharishi says, though (in Science of
> Being...), the ultimate experience does not come through meditation, but
through
> devotion. Again, just speaking for me, meditation is an important part of
> devotion because it brings that balance and joy that feel like nothing so
much
> as grace and blessedness.
The belief system that I would want you to evaluate, is the Maharishi
Effect, or as some websites call it the Maharishi Defect. The fact that
because someone practices TM, they have a positive influence on their
environment. It is just not there. There is a difference between inward
happiness and a personal transformation that would want to make others
happy.
> Of course, you can't ascribe grace to anything outside of your religion.
Any
> belief that isn't based within it is, by definition, a lie. (I just hope
you
> understand that, if I call you on that - as I did in the "Judgement Day"
thread
> - it's partly a reaction to the fairly constant barrage of voices on TV,
the
> Internet and elsewhere telling me that, if I don't hold a particular
belief,
> then I'm no more worthy of Paradise, say, some demented suicide hijacker.)
Would you care to explain the above paragraph. I do not wish to
misinterpret you here.
<snip>
> >That is admirable, but spend your own money on it not my taxes. Big M.
is a
> >multi billionaire, why is he not willing to put his money where his mouth
> >is? Because he has already seen the results.
>
> Well, Maharishi is no multi-billionaire, but I agree with you - they
oughtta put
> their money where their mouth is. I've said it before (and there, I said
it
> again).
His fortune has been estimated with numbers ranging from 3 - 5 billion
dollars. Just remember 5 million initiatees @ say an avarage of $500 a pop.
Add advanced techniques. $500. Over 80.000 paying in ranges of $3.000 to
$6.000 for Sidhis. TTC and AOEGT at $1000.00 per month. Most 6 months. It
adds up real quick. All 100% profit. You probably know that to keep labor
costs down, a lots of people only received tuition credits. Teachers mostly
cheap wages. Hotels were rented at discount off season rates. Real estate
was purchased for cash. A million here a few million there. How many
centers were at the teachers homes.
>
> >>
> >> The difficulty here is that, even though there have been attempts to
put
> >the
> >> "Maharishi Effect" into practice, it's extremely difficult to quantify.
> >
> >Not at all. The theory is very clear. If you have X numbers of
meditators,
> >you will see a *reduction* in the crime rate.
>
> The theory is clear but, as say, when it comes to cities, you can't know
if
> you've got one per cent of the population actually practicing TM. I doubt
it's
> ever been achieved in any major city. One per cent initiations, maybe,
but not
> one per cent practicing.
I would agree with you, that their so called study of 1% cities is mayor
league flawed. But that is where Fairfield IA comes in place. There is no
doubt that 20% of that city is tators. That percentage has never been
denied, argued or anything else. This is 20 X the needed. So even if some
are out of town, or just did not feel like meditating that day, the ME is
entrenched in this city. To no avail.
>
> And this is why I believe they shoot themselves in the foot by making the
> claims. (I think Bob Brigante has offered up some good thoughts on this
aspect
> of the marketing of TM.)
But if you take the ME away from TM what do you have left? Even Bob
believes in the ME if I am not mistaken. (And I am sure he will correct me
if I am wrong)
>
> >> Even when you get specifically-created groups for specific situations,
> >there's
> >> also the question of how "powerful" siddhas are in their practice.
We're
> >> neophytes.
> >
> >Again that is not a problem.
> >"Discovery of the Extended Maharishi Effect : the square root of one
percent
> >of the population practicing the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi
> >Program together in one place produces coherence in collective
> >consciousness, promoting positive and progressive trends in society."
> >http://www.alltm.org/Maharishi/Maharishi_year2.html
> >There is no mentioning in their definition as to the quality of the
> >participant. All we need is numbers.
> >
>
> And, here, as I said is where it is EASIER to quantify what the effect
should
> be. Again, see the type of critique that has been done by Bob Brigante.
>
> Funny, when I start to backpedal, I start to sound like those who try to
explain
> why their predicted time of Armaggedon didn't come to pass.
JW's are having a great record in this scare tactics field. They get a lot
of money by claiming dates. Let's see 1875, 1914, 1925, 1975 2000? I am
sure I missed some.
> We should start to
> see some more of this - I note that at least Ed and Rexella Van Impe are
stating
> definitively that this is IT.
They have no idea when and where and how. The typical open mouth insert
foot. They are just trying to live of their scare tactics. Makes me sick.
>
> Over and out........
Roger Wilco?
>
>
Steve Ralph
wrote:
>I was a Satanist!
In that case, welcome! We need the more diverse views here