Words have Meaning and so do Mantras
Petrus
> "Paul A. Taylor" <zorr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: <snip>
>> I said to the teacher but what does my mantra mean,
>> he said itwas a meaningless sanscrit word selected
>> for its sound. < >
>
>> I found out that contrary to what the TM people told me
>> the mantra is the name of the Hindi god of wealth < >
>It appears you were misinformed; not by the TM teacher
>but by the other website you consulted. As I understand it,
>the bija mantras used in TM are not the names of Hindu Gods.
It appears that you blindly believe all the hogwash that is fed down your
way by the TMo.
If you would do just a little bit of investigating, with an open mind, you
would find:
a quote from your fearless leader:
"For our practice, we select only the suitable mantras of personal Gods.
Such mantras fetch to us the grace of personal Gods and make us happier in
every walk of life. " MMY Beacon Light
http://www.trancenet.org/secrets/beacon/beacon2.shtml#27
Or find out what Guru Dev believed about mantras:
"Shankaracharya: The Lord, Shankaracharya Brahmananda Saraswatiji
Maharaj (Guru Dev) strictly adhered to the ``Varna'' (caste) and ``Aashram''
(four stages of life) systems. He believed in one's Varna (caste)
by birth. Whosoever came to him to become a disciple, he used to ask
him which form of God he was in love with. Whichever form the new
disciple had an interest in, that form he would explain to the new
disciple. [Guru Dev] used to explain, Either you should depend on
your own inclination or else, he, after understanding your previous
life and which form of God you worshipped then, would instruct the
initiate accordingly.
Without having an ``IshTadevataa'' (a personal form of God), no one
could have a ``Mantra'' (name of God) from him. The very meaning of
Mantra is IshTadevataa (a personal form of God). Therefore, along
with every mantra, thinking or reflecting over the form of the IshTadevataa
is essential. Therefore, in all the modes of worship, one reflects
over one's IshTadevataa before chanting or meditating with one's mantra."
http://www.minet.org/Documents/shank-2
Delia how would your gods feel about that? You can't even start TM without
having a "personal Hindu god"
>They are sounds that create certain effects in consciousness;
>these sounds have, however, become *associated* with the Gods,
>by some Hindus, over the course of time. For other people,
>however, they have no such associations. They are indeed
>meaningless.
Words have meaning, Mantras are words, therefore Mantras have meaning.
Just because *you* choose to ignore the meaning, does not make them any less
meaning full.
>Even within the Hindu context however, one should keep in
>mind the difference between a name and an association.
>Although a name may be one kind of association, there are
>other sorts of associations that are not names, such as
>the bija mantras in India.
Whatever
>In either case, the meaning of the name or the association
>only holds for people in a given cultural context.
>It does *not* hold for people outside that context.
>Meaning: the associations that Hindus may have
>made between certains sounds and certain Gods,
>does not hold for someone who is not Hindu.
What logic is that? This may be true for you, but for a Christian, knowing
that he is repeating the names that are associated with Hindu gods, is in
direct conflict with his religion.
>People seem to get quite confused about this issue,
>probably because they are unaccustomed to the idea
>of religious/magical correspondence. So some further
>explanation is in order.
Yes please, we are so stupid here.
<snipped the jada jada about symbols>
>Someone who fails to recognize the dependence
>of symbols on cultural context can make some
>egregious mistakes - like the guy who vandalized
>an ancient Shinto (?) temple in Japan because he
>actually thought the carved swastikas used in the
>decor were anti-semitic.
>The meaning of *anything* is context-dependent;
>the same thing will mean different things to different
>people. And nowhere is this more true than with language.
Absolutely: words mean things and mantras are words and they mean things.
Just because *you* wish to ignore the religious backdrop does not make it go
away.
<snipped the useless argument about the changing of words over time>
>Same thing with the bija mantras of TM. To a Hindu,
>it might make sense to associate a particular sound
>with a particular deity. But to the rest of us it
>needn't have any such association. Words do not
>have any meaning in and of themselves; sounds
>have no inherent meaning, they only have meaning
>as a culture *assigns* meaning to them.
Word do not have any meaning? You are seriously deceiving your self. Yes
and the culture assigned a relationship with Hindu gods to the TM mantras.
MMY did, Guru Dev did, Our Government thought so "United States District
Court DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY, Civil Action No. 76-341, ALAN B. MALNAK, et
als, Plaintiffs, v. MAHARISHI MAHESH YOGI, et als, Defendants " Religious
leaders as the pope and others thought so.
They must be all wrong, for Delia does not think so.
<snipped the repeating of arguments>
It all boils down to this. There is no doubt in the educated mind that the
mantras have something to do with Hindu gods. If you do TM and have no
problem with it. That is fine. If you were not aware of it and it bothers
you, by all means quit. This is very much like the Mickey D beef fries. If
you like them and know they have beef in them you continue to eat them. If
you are a veggie, you don't. I can not blame those Hindus for getting upset
with Mickey D for having eaten beef unbeknown to them. If is no big deal
for the people in McD but for those Hindus who have now sinned it is a big
deal. It's just natural flavoring....? Has only meaning in this culture...?
Yeah right.
Same with TM "It is not a religion" (just natural flavoring...) just a
meaningless word. My bottom.
I will leave you with a MMYs attitude towards conceiling the religious
implications of TM:
"When America is ready for Hinduism I will tell them."
http://www.trancenet.org/law/denarot.html
Lawson English
A mantra isn't a *word*, it is a pronouncable sound.
"Blort" is pronounceable but has no meaning that I am aware of. Can you find
"blort" in any dictionary? If not, then it is not a word in the usual sense
of "some sound with meaning."
You can't find the bija mantras in Sanskrit dictionaries, either. Many
scholars (not MMY, by the way) believe that the bija mantras predate
Sanskrit, and are probably from the Dravidians, whose language still hasn't
been translated into any other, so obviously the bija mantras couldn't have
meaning for any living person, although they might have significance to
people of a certain religion (e.g. Hindu).
in article kQUP6.544$5Z.9...@news-west.eli.net, Petrus at
NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE wrote on 5/26/01 2:01 PM:
--
The real romance is out ahead and yet to
come. The computer revolution hasn't started yet. Don't be misled by
the enormous flow of money into bad defacto standards for
unsophisticated buyers using poor adaptations of incomplete ideas. -Alan Kay
--
eki
seuraavasti:
>
>
>A mantra isn't a *word*, it is a pronouncable sound.
>
>
There's is one mantra in the minet.org list that I can
find in my Skrt dictionary, namely (rot-13 -ed):
fulzn
eki
Sorry, made a typo, should have been:
fulnzn
Jeff Ridley
eki <eki...@dwp.net> wrote in message news:9eq780$oei$2...@tron.sci.fi...
I believe fulnzn means 'peace' if I remember correctly. So possibly fulnz
and fulnzn, the last two tm mantras, don't refer to any Hindu god but have a
meaning which is more mundane.
>
willytex
Thread: Mantras
Subject: No entry, no meaning in Sanskrit dictionary.
Author: willytex
Date: 05/27/2001
> Eki wrote
> There's is one mantra in the minet.org list that I can
> find in my Skrt dictionary...
>
>> Jeff Ridley wrote
>> ...if I remember correctly.
Ridley - It is obvious that you cannot remember, but the point was missed
by you entirely. The bija mantras are not found in any standard Sanskrit
lexicon, therefore if they are the names of dieties, they have no meaning.
Jeff Ridley
willytex <will...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns90AE9216AF80D...@216.166.62.32...
Yes, in this instance I remembered incorrectly. Shyam (eki's rot13 fulnz)
doesn't mean peace. Shanti means peace. Shyam and shyama mean Krishna.
Stu
jri...@direct.ca wrote on 5/27/01 10:05 PM:
Shyzam is the Gomer Pile mantra ;-)
Just a question - I am not sure if this is related. I understand that
Hindus are given a personal god to worship. Is there a method to the
selection of this personal god? Is there a relationship between this
selection and the given a mantra relating to a personal god (Krishna or Rama
for example) for one of the Hindu faith? Once a person is assigned this
personal god is this their god for all of their life?
--
~Stu
Lawson English
5/27/01 10:21 PM:
>> Yes, in this instance I remembered incorrectly. Shyam (eki's rot13 fulnz)
>> doesn't mean peace. Shanti means peace. Shyam and shyama mean Krishna.
Not that I'm aware of...
Jeff Ridley
Stu <nos...@no.spam> wrote in message news:B7372E7C.5649%nos...@no.spam...
Here's the way Brahmananda Saraswati selected the god:
Shankaracharya: The Lord, Shankaracharya Brahmananda Saraswatiji
Maharaj (Guru Dev) strictly adhered to the ``Varna'' (caste) and ``Aashram''
(four stages of life) systems. He believed in one's Varna (caste)
by birth. Whosoever came to him to become a disciple, he used to ask
him which form of God he was in love with. Whichever form the new
disciple had an interest in, that form he would explain to the new
disciple. [Guru Dev] used to explain, Either you should depend on
your own inclination or else, he, after understanding your previous
life and which form of God you worshipped then, would instruct the
initiate accordingly.
Without having an ``IshTadevataa'' (a personal form of God), no one
could have a ``Mantra'' (name of God) from him. The very meaning of
Mantra is IshTadevataa (a personal form of God). Therefore, along
with every mantra, thinking or reflecting over the form of the IshTadevataa
is essential. Therefore, in all the modes of worship, one reflects
over one's IshTadevataa before chanting or meditating with one's mantra.
Here's what it says in the Garland of Letters by John Woodroffe:
In all the other letters one or other of the five Bhutas or forms of
sensible matter (Akasa, Vayu, Agni, Ap, Prthivi) predominates. <B>For this
reason, in the selection by the Guru of the Mantra for his disciple the
letters are chosen according as an examination shows that there is an excess
or deficiency of any particular Bhuta.</B> Where there is excess of a Bhuta,
the letter in which it is predominant is said with the outbreathing. Where
there is deficiency it is said with the inbreathing.
Petrus
"Jeff Ridley" <jri...@direct.ca> wrote in message
news:L_kQ6.1883$Mb7.1...@brie.direct.ca...
Jeff,
Where did you find that Shyam and Shyama mean Krishna?
>
>
Petrus
Eki just explained that one of them *is* found in his Sanskrit dictionary.
This is what MMY say about them
"For our practice, we select only the suitable mantras of personal Gods.
Such mantras fetch to us the grace of personal Gods and make us happier in
every walk of life. " MMY
as you claimed of Jeff?
Petrus
"eki" <eki...@dwp.net> wrote in message news:9eq710$oei$1...@tron.sci.fi...
> In article <B735B60E.305D9%engl...@mindspring.com>,
engl...@mindspring.com heittää läppää
> seuraavasti:
> >
> >
> >A mantra isn't a *word*, it is a pronouncable sound.
> >
> >
our practice, we select only the suitable mantras of personal Gods. Such
mantras fetch to us the grace of personal Gods and make us happier in every
walk of life." MMY
I still wonder what is so scientific about the selection. Can anyone
explain that one to me.
Lawson English
NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE wrote on 5/29/01 12:34 PM:
> "This is the scientific reason why we do not select any word at random. For
> our practice, we select only the suitable mantras of personal Gods. Such
> mantras fetch to us the grace of personal Gods and make us happier in every
> walk of life." MMY
> MMY thinks mantras are words. (we do not select any word at random)
> I still wonder what is so scientific about the selection. Can anyone
> explain that one to me.
Nowhere did MMY say that the TM mantras are words. In fact, he called them
mantras, not words.
Kurt Arbuckle
: I still wonder what is so scientific about the selection. Can anyone
: explain that one to me.
Based on past experience I doubt that would be possible. At least nothing
has worked so far.
Kurt
P.S. Where's Steve? Is someone else going to have to take over the funny
response department?
eki
<snip>
>
did you find that Shyam and Shyama mean Krishna?
>
>>
>>
Both words mean, amongst other things, 'black',but
the s-word is not a synonym of 'Krishna' in my
Macdonell. (BTW, I find it a bit curious, that
'Arjuna' means 'white'...)
Petrus
"Lawson English" <engl...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:B739546B.30965%engl...@mindspring.com...
> in article pRSQ6.10$Mp....@news-west.eli.net, Petrus at
> NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE wrote on 5/29/01 12:34 PM:
>
> > "This is the scientific reason why we do not select any word at random.
For
> > our practice, we select only the suitable mantras of personal Gods. Such
> > mantras fetch to us the grace of personal Gods and make us happier in
every
> > walk of life." MMY
> > MMY thinks mantras are words. (we do not select any word at random)
> > I still wonder what is so scientific about the selection. Can anyone
> > explain that one to me.
>
> Nowhere did MMY say that the TM mantras are words. In fact, he called them
> mantras, not words.
>
we do not select any word but a mantra. No. Thus he is inferring that a
mantra is not a *randomly selected* word, but a scientifically selected
word.
Lawson English
NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE wrote on 5/29/01 4:15 PM:
But it is a meaningless (to the meditator) word, which is the point of the
claim that it is a meaningless word.
Petrus
meaningless according to the quote from big M. As a matter of fact it is
scientific to fetch the grace from Hindu gods.
Jeff Ridley
Petrus <NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE> wrote in message
news:KFSQ6.8$Mp....@news-west.eli.net...
>
> Jeff,
>
> Where did you find that Shyam and Shyama mean Krishna?
What's Your Mantra Mean? TM Mantra Garland Sastra Tantra Devata
ENG, EM, ENGA, EMA, AING, AIM, AINGA, AIMA (essentially the same bija
mantra) AIM AIM AIM Saraswati, Devi of learning, music, speech, the fine
arts
SHIRING, SHIRIM SHREEM S'RÍM S'RÍM Mahalakshmi or Lakshmi, Devi of
wealth
HIRING, HIRIM HREEM HRÍM HRÍM Bhuvanesvari, Mahamaya
KIRING, KIRIM KREEM KRÍM KRÍM Devi Kalika
SHYAM, SHYAMA Krishna
RAM, SHRIRAM (RAM plus SHRI, see below) RAM RAM RAM Agni, Deva of Fire
Steve Ralph
<engl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>A mantra isn't a *word*, it is a pronouncable sound.
>
>
>
>"Blort" is pronounceable but has no meaning that I am aware of. Can you find
>"blort" in any dictionary? If not, then it is not a word in the usual sense
>of "some sound with meaning."
>
In my experience, 'blort' means a unpleasant smell
Steve Ralph
Lawson English
steve...@sralph.demon.co.uk wrote on 5/30/01 4:52 AM:
> On Sat, 26 May 2001 19:35:44 -0700, Lawson English
> <engl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> A mantra isn't a *word*, it is a pronouncable sound.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Blort" is pronounceable but has no meaning that I am aware of. Can you find
>> "blort" in any dictionary? If not, then it is not a word in the usual sense
>> of "some sound with meaning."
>>
> In my experience, 'blort' means a unpleasant smell
You stinker...
Jeff E
http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/teachings/japayoga.htm
Sounds are vibrations. They give rise to definite forms. Each sound produces
a form in the indivisible world, and combinations of sound create
complicated shapes. Repetition of a Mantra has a mysterious power of
bringing about the manifestation of the Divinity, just as the splitting of
an atom manifests the tremendous forces latent in it. When a particular
Mantra appropriated to a particular god is properly recited, the vibrations
so set up create in the higher planes a special form which that god ensouls
for the time being. The repetition of the Panchakshara Mantra - Om Namo
Sivaya - produces the form of Lord Siva. The repetition of Om Namo
Narayanaya, the Ashtakshara Mantra of Vishnu, produces the form of Vishnu.
Lawson English <engl...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:B739546B.30965%engl...@mindspring.com...
Petrus
Interesting website:
"A Mantra is divinity encased within a sound-structure. It is divine power
or Daivi Sakti manifesting in a sound-body. The Mantra is itself Devata. "
"Mantra Yoga is an exact science. A Mantra, in the Hindu religion, has the
following six parts. It has got a Rishi (a man of Self-realization) to whom
it was revealed for the first time and who gave this Mantra to the world. He
is the Drashta or Seer for this Mantra. Sage Viswamitra is the Rishi for
Gayatri. Secondly, the Mantra has a metre (Chhandas), which governs the
inflection of the voice. Thirdly, the Mantra has a particular Devata or
supernatural being, higher or lower, as its informing power. This Devata is
the presiding deity of the Mantra. Fourthly, the Mantra has got a Bija or
seed. The seed is a significant word, or series of words, which gives a
special power to the Mantra. The Bija is the essence of the Mantra. Fifthly,
every Mantra has got a Sakti. The Sakti is the energy of the form of the
Mantra, i.e., of the vibration-forms set up by its sound. These carry the
man to the Devata that is worshipped. Lastly, the Mantra has a Kilaka -
pillar or pin. This plugs the Mantra-Chaitanya that is hidden in the Mantra.
As soon as the plug is removed by constant and prolonged repetition of the
Name, the Chaitanya that is hidden is revealed. The devotee gets Darshana of
the Ishta Devata. "
What did Mahesh Varma call himself Maha Rishi ?
The mantra has got a bija - a significant word. Whoa what did he say a
mantra has a word? What is the power behind the mantra? The devata is the
presiding deity of the mantra. The Sakti carry the man to the devata.
But here is the kicker:
"The Name of God, chanted correctly or incorrectly, knowingly or
unknowingly, carefully, is sure to give the desired result. Just as burning
quality is natural to and inherent in fire, so also, the power of destroying
sins with their very root and branch, and bringing the aspirant into
blissful union with the Lord through Bhava-Samadhi, is natural to and
inherent in the Name of God.
The glory of the Name of God cannot be established through reasoning and
intellect. It can be experienced or realized only through devotion, faith
and constant repetition of the Name. "
What did he say:
"The Name of God, chanted correctly or incorrectly, *knowingly or
unknowingly*, carefully, is sure to give the desired result.
Therefore even if you do not believe in Hindu gods, the mantra is sure to
give the desired result. So all you TMers should be happier in every walk
of life.
What did the big M say:
"This is the scientific reason why we do not select any word at random. For
our practice, we select only the suitable mantras of personal Gods. Such
mantras fetch to us the grace of personal Gods and make us happier in every
walk of life. "
Notice also how both of them think it is a science.
How many more meanings do you need for your mantra?
"Jeff E" <parad...@winshop.com> wrote in message
news:9f4bjf$pa4$1...@gnamma.connect.com.au...