Help Required for Victim of TM Movement
Stu
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:59:32 -0000
From: "bloke_without_a_favourite_colour"
<bloke_without_a_...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Help Required for Victim of TM Movement
Hi! I'm new to this group.
I'm making this post because I'm very concerned about my dad: he's
very deeply involved with the whole Transcendental
Meditation/Maharishi Mahesh Yogi movement and it's gradually taken
over his entire life. He now spends almost all of his time doing
asanas, meditating, yogic "flying" (bouncing), listening to TM/MMY
music (various mandalas of the Rig Veda, Ghandarva (sp?) Veda music,
etc.), and especially watching satellite broadcasts made by the
Maharishi Open University. He's withdrawn from almost everything
else. He even gave up his job partly because he just didn't have the
time to do it any more.
This puts considerable strain on my mum who has to do a full-time job
as well as almost all of the housework just to keep going, and even
then can't afford the costs of living -- she's continually spending
more than she is earning. She is tired all the time, and says there's
nothing she can do because she can't make my dad work.
My dad also suffers from various personal problems, at least some of
which (fatigue, lack of ambition, poor social skills, no motivation,
poor concentration, bad memory, lethargy etc.) I think may be due to
TM and yogic "flying", which blank out reality, particularly in view
of *independent* studies that have been conducted on these practices.
My dad doesn't agree of course, and doesn't even acknowledge he has
some of these problems. In fact, he doesn't even accept that TM can
cause any negative effects despite the independent studies
documenting them, and is always mentioning the alleged thousands of
studies that supposedly all show it has all sorts of good effects.
My dad also has bad eyesight and is partially deaf but refuses to
wear glasses or a hearing aid (which he was told he needed when he
went to get his ears tested) because he's got the idea from the
TM/MMY movement that wearing glasses would weaken his optic nerve and
(I think) that these things aren't "natural", as the Maharishi says
everything must be. He often uses a magnifying glass anyway, which is
considerably less convenient for him, and by the same logic would
presumably also weaken his optic nerve, so he might just as well have
some glasses anyway, but pointing this out to him gets you nowhere --
logic carries no weight with my dad if it goes against what the
Maharishi (who he freely admits is his guru) says.
I continually try to educate and inform him about these issues by
providing him with relevant objective facts, putting things into
context for him, and trying to persuade him to take more into account
than just what he hears on the MOU satellite broadcasts, but this
never gets anywhere -- he is a "true believer". He has even said --
in complete seriousness -- that he believes yogic "flyers" can stop
war and that Maharishi will save the world.
My dad admits that he's never experienced even one single positive
effect from TM or yogic "flying", yet still continues to do them both
twice absolutely every day without a single exception anyway, even
though he's been meditating for over 20 years and told me that the
Maharishi said that the average time taken to reach enlightenment
(the be-all-and-end-all about life as far as my dad is concerned) by
doing TM is about 6 years, and there could scarcely be a more
dedicated meditator than my dad. Even after giving literally
thousands of pounds to the TM/MMY movement to learn these techniques
and having absolutely no good effects from them whatsoever, he still
says he would jump at the chance to take up the Maharishi's latest
offer of providing enlightenment in return for a million -- yes,
1,000,000 -- if he had that kind of money.
I love my parents and it hurts me to see my dad like this and the
effects that it has on my mum. I want to try to help him to see
through all the obvious nonsense, pseudoscience, mysticism, and
deception that the movement so dishonestly espouses, and to be freed
from the movement that he has been so thoroughly sucked into, so that
he can get his life back on track, but I just don't know what to do.
So as this is a group specifically about the TM/MMY movement, I'm
asking whether anyone here has any ideas as to what I can do to help
my dad?
I'll be more than grateful for any helpful suggestions offered. Also,
does anyone else know anyone like my dad? Is his story a common one?
Thank you for reading this.
Take care.
will...@yahoo.com
Thread: Help
Subject: Please do not post private email to Usenet.
Author: will...@yahoo.com
Date: 04/03/2002
> Stu wrote
> Thought this was an interesting article on TM News...
Stu - Apparently, you failed to leave your own comment over on that *other*
newsgroup, Yahoo! TM News. Why not? In the amount of time that it took you
copy and paste it here, you could have responded with a cogent comment over
there!
It is not considered appropriate to copy messages from Yahoo egroups and to
post them on Usenet, for obvious reasons. If you found this post
interesting, perhaps you should respond to it on TM News, and then direct
others to subscribe to that forum where they can leave their own cogent
comments.
The "article" that you posted is an obvious hoax; Judy, Les, and Jeff said
as much. It is obvious that this is the same post that was sent to
TMControversy, a newsgroup that was set up by anti-TM "experts."
Forum: TM News
Message 6599
From: "bloke_without_a_favourite_colour"
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 6:59 am
sudarsha
people who take Mahesh and his circus just a little bit too seriously for
the parameters of common sense. Heck, most of us have probably at one time
or another probably been there!
Still, even a hoax has to have some foundation in reality in order to
actually be a hoax, so we live and we learn. Worst case scenario: this is
absolutely real and poor ol' dad is destroying a lot more than his own life.
Thanks for reporting this.
caveat emptor
"Stu" <nos...@no.spam> wrote in message news:B8D09235.CF75%nos...@no.spam...
Petrus
<will...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qBJq8.402980$uv5.33...@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
> Forum: alt.meditation.transcendental
> Thread: Help
> Subject: Please do not post private email to Usenet.
> Author: will...@yahoo.com
> Date: 04/03/2002
>
> > Stu wrote
> > Thought this was an interesting article on TM News...
>
> Stu - Apparently, you failed to leave your own comment over on that
*other*
> newsgroup, Yahoo! TM News. Why not? In the amount of time that it took you
> copy and paste it here, you could have responded with a cogent comment
over
> there!
Stu thanks for posting this.
>
> It is not considered appropriate to copy messages from Yahoo egroups and
to
> post them on Usenet, for obvious reasons.
Really willy and why may that be?
> If you found this post
> interesting, perhaps you should respond to it on TM News, and then direct
> others to subscribe to that forum where they can leave their own cogent
> comments.
I find it interesting. I vote to keep Stu here.
>
> The "article" that you posted is an obvious hoax; Judy, Les, and Jeff said
> as much.
Well that settles it then. Why even discuss any further...
> It is obvious that this is the same post that was sent to
> TMControversy, a newsgroup that was set up by anti-TM "experts."
Well that would immediately invalidate this post.
Sorry willy but I do believe that the guy in the UK is experiencing what he
wrote. There has been enough people saying the same story over and over.
Why doubt this one.
Stu
wrote on 4/3/02 3:04 PM:
>
> <will...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:qBJq8.402980$uv5.33...@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
>> Forum: alt.meditation.transcendental
>> Thread: Help
>> Subject: Please do not post private email to Usenet.
>> Author: will...@yahoo.com
>> Date: 04/03/2002
>>
>>> Stu wrote
>>> Thought this was an interesting article on TM News...
>>
>> Stu - Apparently, you failed to leave your own comment over on that
> *other*
>> newsgroup, Yahoo! TM News. Why not? In the amount of time that it took you
>> copy and paste it here, you could have responded with a cogent comment
> over
>> there!
I really didn't have a comment make. This story reminded me of others we
have seen out there and I thought it appropriate news for AMT. Don't shoot
the messenger.
> Stu thanks for posting this.
>
Thought you and suds would get a kick out of it.
>>
>> It is not considered appropriate to copy messages from Yahoo egroups and
> to
>> post them on Usenet, for obvious reasons.
>
> Really willy and why may that be?
Yea Mr. Willytex! We all copy news from various sources and post it here
for our reading pleasure. I have read many a post by your very self with
references to all types of material. Seems as long as it is properly
attributed there is not problem. I certainly have not scene any warnings
over at Yahoo groups about the exclusivity of their posts.
>
>> If you found this post
>> interesting, perhaps you should respond to it on TM News, and then direct
>> others to subscribe to that forum where they can leave their own cogent
>> comments.
>
> I find it interesting. I vote to keep Stu here.
Apparently some of AMT's finest have been kicked off of TMnews.
>
>>
>> The "article" that you posted is an obvious hoax; Judy, Les, and Jeff said
>> as much.
>
> Well that settles it then. Why even discuss any further...
>
>> It is obvious that this is the same post that was sent to
>> TMControversy, a newsgroup that was set up by anti-TM "experts."
What did they say?
>
> Well that would immediately invalidate this post.
>
> Sorry willy but I do believe that the guy in the UK is experiencing what he
> wrote. There has been enough people saying the same story over and over.
> Why doubt this one.
It reads true to me. Today on the news the Israeli's showed some
documentation of the PLO's involvement with suicide bombers. The PLO of
course said it was a hoax. What else can they say?
Perhaps this guy will respond.
Stu
will...@yahoo.com at will...@yahoo.com wrote on 4/3/02 12:28 PM:
> The "article" that you posted is an obvious hoax; Judy, Les, and Jeff said
> as much. It is obvious that this is the same post that was sent to
> TMControversy, a newsgroup that was set up by anti-TM "experts."
Willytex - After reading today's threads are you still of this opinion?
--
~Stu
Petrus
"Stu" <nos...@no.spam> wrote in message news:B8D1FECA.CFBE%nos...@no.spam...
What do you mean S2?
Petrus
"Stu" <nos...@no.spam> wrote in message news:B8D12530.CFA3%nos...@no.spam...
> in article uan2l1f...@corp.supernews.com, Petrus at
NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE
> wrote on 4/3/02 3:04 PM:
>
> I really didn't have a comment make. This story reminded me of others we
> have seen out there and I thought it appropriate news for AMT. Don't shoot
> the messenger.
>
> > Stu thanks for posting this.
> >
> Thought you and suds would get a kick out of it.
I would not call it getting a kick out of it. But it does show how deep the
TM indoctrination can be.
<snip>
>
> Apparently some of AMT's finest have been kicked off of TMnews.
Does willy still have posting rights there?
Stu
wrote on 4/4/02 1:09 PM:
Overnight on TMnews Judy, Les and Jeff softened to their initial knee jerk
reaction to this guys post. Back when Judy stormed this group she was much
the same. She tends towards massive assumptions that invariable are wrong.
She did that to me.
The last few post this morning seem to say that this guy is maybe telling
the truth. Even though there is not way that TM is to blame for his fathers
behavior. Must be another bad apple that got through the rigorous screening
process.
--
~Stu
Joe Kellett
The main "evidence" that the guy was a troll seems to have been that (1)
he wasn't angry enough about his father and (2) he knew too much about
TM.
Somebody thought he sounded too much like me! Especially because I
resumed posting after accidentally seeing his query passing through to
the usual TMNews dustbin on my email client (So that's a "sock puppet"
theory, I guess, in addition to the troll theory.)
So let a knowledgable (his father has been self-inducing dissociative
states (i.e. "meditating") for 20 years so maybe the kid would know
something) *and* polite person post something critical to TM and he is
automatically a troll or a sock puppet?
The alternative theory: TMers just get really uncomfortable when someone
tells the truth about what TM can do to people. As they should. The
story he tells about his father is quite within the realm of
possibility, and deserves being taken at face value if there is nothing
but guesswork to the contrary.
--Joe
(Go see the new pretty pictures on www.suggestibility.org!)
--
Joe Kellett
tan...@MyRealBox.com
"Falling Down the TM Rabbit Hole" (How Transcendental Meditation (TM)
Really Works): http://www.suggestibility.org.
And don't forget about "Mumbull": http://www.mumbull.com. A common TM
denial mechanism says that these things happen *despite* Mahesh and his
teachings. I assert that they happen *because* of Mahesh and his
teachings.
Worried about TM's Big Brother? For an easy way to create single-use
("throwaway") and reasonably anonymous email accounts (in the absence of
a subpoena anyway), see: www.sneakemail.com.
In article <DhKq8.20067$un4.2...@news20.bellglobal.com>,
tom.an...@sympatico.ca says...
Stu
1f5c7p...@sneakemail.com wrote on 4/4/02 10:39 PM:
> The main "evidence" that the guy was a troll seems to have been that (1)
> he wasn't angry enough about his father and (2) he knew too much about
> TM.
>
> Somebody thought he sounded too much like me! Especially because I
> resumed posting after accidentally seeing his query passing through to
> the usual TMNews dustbin on my email client (So that's a "sock puppet"
> theory, I guess, in addition to the troll theory.)
>
> So let a knowledgable (his father has been self-inducing dissociative
> states (i.e. "meditating") for 20 years so maybe the kid would know
> something) *and* polite person post something critical to TM and he is
> automatically a troll or a sock puppet?
>
> The alternative theory: TMers just get really uncomfortable when someone
> tells the truth about what TM can do to people. As they should. The
> story he tells about his father is quite within the realm of
> possibility, and deserves being taken at face value if there is nothing
> but guesswork to the contrary.
The level of denial is staggering. The initial rants to the Blokes first
posts was an amazing display. Even after they calmed down (no doubt a
relaxation technique would help these people) they still insist that this
guy's father's ills were brought on by depression (Judy knows about it
because she used to be depressed, now the symptoms are masked by TM) or some
chemical imbalance.
TM has changed a lot from its humble beginnings in the 60's.
I recently went to a meeting in Westwood to meet the TM Sidhi Program
Administrators Mr. and Mrs. Bhargava. What a deeply bizarre experience. We
all sit and talk about all this stuff on the newsgroups but to actually see
real humans sit around and talk about Vedic Vibration Technology, astrology
and such as if it is a real thing is really scary stuff. Imagine if these
concepts were brought up in the days when the TM people were teaching in
high schools.
Joe, I enjoy you theories, and even think there is substance there. However
I think that for the last 4 or 5 thousand year these yogis may have stumbled
upon trance induction techniques and found a positive way to use them.
After all trance induction is a natural stimulant to the brain and far
better than drug alternatives (alcohol, pot, cigarettes, etc). So for my
money I am fine with a regular practice of trance induction for relaxation
over and above the alternative.
However the Sidhi program steps over the line. Aside from the warnings
Patanjali him self places on the Sidhis. The way they are sold by Mr. and
Mrs. Bhargava was out of line. This expensive program is sold as a way of
having all desires filled. He talked about how after fulfilling the program
all desires simple come. He said that you really have to be careful what
you wish for because it really will come true.
The Sidhi program doesn't come with all the scientific graphs and charts
showing positive effects. It is only sold as the panacea for all ills.
And as if that snake oil is not enough, he goes on to say that the practice
should be the most important thing in life. In that the meaning of life is
the practice of the TM program.
Now because of the deep belief in the Maharishi effect, it is not only
important to meditate, it is mandatory. Otherwise you are really holding
back the promise of world peace.
This is the dangerous part of the current TMO. There is tremendous weight
put on practicing over life, rather than practicing to enhance life.
It is easy to see how Bloke's father has fallen into this trap. It has
serious parallels with other cults that expect their followers to practice
certain actions under the guise of peer pressure like the Ragheads, Moonies
and Scientologists.
>
> (Go see the new pretty pictures on www.suggestibility.org!)
The whole site has a pleasant graphic quality. But sometimes you lay it on
a little thick with all the trance induction stuff. There is a deep grudge
going on there.
--
~Stu
John A. Stanley
>in article MPG.1716e6199...@news.earthlink.net, Joe Kellett at
>posts was an amazing display. Even after they calmed down (no doubt a
>relaxation technique would help these people) they still insist that this
>guy's father's ills were brought on by depression (Judy knows about it
>because she used to be depressed, now the symptoms are masked by TM) or some
>chemical imbalance.
One problem is that Bloke initiated the blame game with the way he
worded his initial plea for help, and the thread advanced accordingly.
What purpose did he think it would serve to word his post like that if
his plea for help was genuine and not a troll?
My thoughts after slogging through a bunch of those posts were: What
bloody fucking difference does it make if TM or an existing condition
caused the father's obsessive relationship to all things TM? The father
is a dysfunctional mess regardless of the cause! And, the real victim
here isn't the father in fantasyland but the mother who works her ass
off enabling him to live in that fantasyland.
His situation reminded me of my own situation when I was drinking.
Although my wife didn't have to work to support us, she kept all our
finances in order, paid all the bills, did all the taxes, and kept money
in the checking account so that I could get cash out of the machine and
get shit-faced drunk every night at the bar. She made life as pleasant
as possible for me in hopes that I would come to my senses and see the
pain I was causing her and the damage I was doing to myself, when, in
fact, all she was doing was enabling me by giving me the sense that
there was nothing wrong with what I was doing. What I needed was a
wake-up call, and I got it when I was finally arrested for DUI; I've
been sober since that night in jail 6+ years ago.
Bloke's father is completely checked out, and there's probably not a
damn thing anyone can say to him to snap him out of it. What he needs is
his own wake-up call in the form of his wife ceasing to enable him by
cutting him off financially. The sooner he hits rock-bottom the better.
--
John A. Stanley Remove delicious mucilaginous vegetable to email
Kurt Arbuckle
: In article <B8D3680E....@no.spam>, Stu <nos...@no.spam> wrote:
:>in article MPG.1716e6199...@news.earthlink.net, Joe Kellett at
:>The level of denial is staggering. The initial rants to the Blokes first
:>posts was an amazing display. Even after they calmed down (no doubt a
:>relaxation technique would help these people) they still insist that this
:>guy's father's ills were brought on by depression (Judy knows about it
:>because she used to be depressed, now the symptoms are masked by TM) or some
:>chemical imbalance.
snip
: My thoughts after slogging through a bunch of those posts were: What
: bloody fucking difference does it make if TM or an existing condition
: caused the father's obsessive relationship to all things TM? The father
: is a dysfunctional mess regardless of the cause! And, the real victim
: here isn't the father in fantasyland but the mother who works her ass
: off enabling him to live in that fantasyland.
snip
: Bloke's father is completely checked out, and there's probably not a
: damn thing anyone can say to him to snap him out of it. What he needs is
: his own wake-up call in the form of his wife ceasing to enable him by
: cutting him off financially. The sooner he hits rock-bottom the better.
As I pointed out on TMNEWS, Bloke made it clear in that forum that he
thinks TM is a crok. So Bloke blames TM for the patterns of his father's
behavior when if fact TM is just the content of his obsession. It is like
blaming the water for someone who is compulsive about washing his hands.
If bloke gets the "help" he is seeking and if that help "succeeds" bloke
will have an equally messed up father, but the content of the pattern
will likely be anti-TMism. It will work great for the father, becuase
he can excuse his pattern of behavior as the effects of his former TM
practice. Then he won't have to change his patterns. So bloke is actually
seeking to do his father a diservice in the long run.
It is noteworthy that the only response I got was not from bloke, who was
responding to everything else. Rather the response was from Joe Kellet.
He said that hidden in my comment was the asertion that TM is good.
Of course that assertion is not in my comment. For purposes of my comment
TM could actually be good or bad in itself, it is just not the proper
focus of attention for the particular issue. Of course if bloke has his
way, his father will turn into a Joe Kellet.
Kurt
Joe Kellett
> in article MPG.1716e6199...@news.earthlink.net, Joe Kellett at
> 1f5c7p...@sneakemail.com wrote on 4/4/02 10:39 PM:
>
> > The main "evidence" that the guy was a troll seems to have been that (1)
> > he wasn't angry enough about his father and (2) he knew too much about
> > TM.
> > The alternative theory: TMers just get really uncomfortable when someone
> > tells the truth about what TM can do to people. As they should. The
> > story he tells about his father is quite within the realm of
> > possibility, and deserves being taken at face value if there is nothing
> > but guesswork to the contrary.
>
> The level of denial is staggering. The initial rants to the Blokes first
> posts was an amazing display. Even after they calmed down (no doubt a
> relaxation technique would help these people) they still insist that this
> guy's father's ills were brought on by depression (Judy knows about it
> because she used to be depressed, now the symptoms are masked by TM) or some
> chemical imbalance.
"Denial" is a good word for it.
>
> TM has changed a lot from its humble beginnings in the 60's.
>
> I recently went to a meeting in Westwood to meet the TM Sidhi Program
> Administrators Mr. and Mrs. Bhargava. What a deeply bizarre experience. We
> all sit and talk about all this stuff on the newsgroups but to actually see
> real humans sit around and talk about Vedic Vibration Technology, astrology
> and such as if it is a real thing is really scary stuff. Imagine if these
> concepts were brought up in the days when the TM people were teaching in
> high schools.
>
> Joe, I enjoy you theories, and even think there is substance there. However
> I think that for the last 4 or 5 thousand year these yogis may have stumbled
> upon trance induction techniques and found a positive way to use them.
I am agnostic about that. However, Mahesh is either incompetent or
malicious or both. If one wants to pursue the possibility of truth in
yogic teachings, one should go elsewhere. I mean all of my comments to
apply specifically to Maheshianism, not to Hindu/yogic teachings of
which Maheshianism is a mere free-form distortion.
> After all trance induction is a natural stimulant to the brain and far
> better than drug alternatives (alcohol, pot, cigarettes, etc). So for my
> money I am fine with a regular practice of trance induction for relaxation
> over and above the alternative.
I do not say that trance induction is inherently bad or useless. I say
that it is potentially dangerous to those who follow Mahesh's teachings.
But I also tell people that if they are TMing without toxic symptoms,
and enjoying it, and aren't inclined to take further instruction from
the TMO (which poses added danger), then no problem.
>
> However the Sidhi program steps over the line. Aside from the warnings
> Patanjali him self places on the Sidhis. The way they are sold by Mr. and
> Mrs. Bhargava was out of line. This expensive program is sold as a way of
> having all desires filled.
That promise is one of the major distortions.
> He talked about how after fulfilling the program
> all desires simple come. He said that you really have to be careful what
> you wish for because it really will come true.
>
> The Sidhi program doesn't come with all the scientific graphs and charts
> showing positive effects. It is only sold as the panacea for all ills.
However, the "panacea for all ills" pitch has been on the label of
Mahesh's snake-oil since the start.
> And as if that snake oil is not enough, he goes on to say that the practice
> should be the most important thing in life. In that the meaning of life is
> the practice of the TM program.
>
> Now because of the deep belief in the Maharishi effect, it is not only
> important to meditate, it is mandatory. Otherwise you are really holding
> back the promise of world peace.
>
> This is the dangerous part of the current TMO. There is tremendous weight
> put on practicing over life, rather than practicing to enhance life.
>
> It is easy to see how Bloke's father has fallen into this trap. It has
> serious parallels with other cults that expect their followers to practice
> certain actions under the guise of peer pressure like the Ragheads, Moonies
> and Scientologists.
Very close parallels.
(Did I post this here yet?: www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuleaf.htm .)
>
> >
> > (Go see the new pretty pictures on www.suggestibility.org!)
>
> The whole site has a pleasant graphic quality. But sometimes you lay it on
> a little thick with all the trance induction stuff. There is a deep grudge
> going on there.
>
Ah, but trance induction and suggestibility, as applied under TM, is the
main message. I think it's only a grudge if I'm wrong, otherwise it's a
legitimate and serious warning.
--Joe
--
Joe Kellett
tan...@MyRealBox.com
www.suggestibility.org
Check out "Mumbull": http://www.mumbull.com . A common TM denial
Joe Kellett
> In article <B8D3680E....@no.spam>, Stu <nos...@no.spam> wrote:
> >in article MPG.1716e6199...@news.earthlink.net, Joe Kellett at
> >The level of denial is staggering. The initial rants to the Blokes first
> >posts was an amazing display. Even after they calmed down (no doubt a
> >relaxation technique would help these people) they still insist that this
> >guy's father's ills were brought on by depression (Judy knows about it
> >because she used to be depressed, now the symptoms are masked by TM) or some
> >chemical imbalance.
>
> One problem is that Bloke initiated the blame game with the way he
> worded his initial plea for help, and the thread advanced accordingly.
> What purpose did he think it would serve to word his post like that if
> his plea for help was genuine and not a troll?
Anyone with an attitude could be a troll, I suppose, just as anyone
supportive could be a sock-puppet. But his skeptical/accusatory
attitude would be a normal one for a non-Maheshian watching his father
go through the experiences described. What help did he expect to get?
Maybe just a desperation shot. Maybe he didn't realize he was
confronting a religion, and could expect the responses one gets when
insulting another person's religion (something I have found to be risky
at a verbal level).
>
> My thoughts after slogging through a bunch of those posts were: What
> bloody fucking difference does it make if TM or an existing condition
> caused the father's obsessive relationship to all things TM?
So he could stop TM practices and thus stop introducing toxic
psychological influences?
> The father
> is a dysfunctional mess regardless of the cause! And, the real victim
> here isn't the father in fantasyland but the mother who works her ass
> off enabling him to live in that fantasyland.
The victim count stands at three. First is the father who was convinced
to try powerful psychological techniques that possibly turned out to be
toxic for him. The mother, as you describe. And "Bloke", the son who
has to watch this helplessly.
>
> His situation reminded me of my own situation when I was drinking.
> Although my wife didn't have to work to support us, she kept all our
> finances in order, paid all the bills, did all the taxes, and kept money
> in the checking account so that I could get cash out of the machine and
> get shit-faced drunk every night at the bar. She made life as pleasant
> as possible for me in hopes that I would come to my senses and see the
> pain I was causing her and the damage I was doing to myself, when, in
> fact, all she was doing was enabling me by giving me the sense that
> there was nothing wrong with what I was doing. What I needed was a
> wake-up call, and I got it when I was finally arrested for DUI; I've
> been sober since that night in jail 6+ years ago.
>
> Bloke's father is completely checked out, and there's probably not a
> damn thing anyone can say to him to snap him out of it. What he needs is
> his own wake-up call in the form of his wife ceasing to enable him by
> cutting him off financially. The sooner he hits rock-bottom the better.
>
I agree with that, actually. Good response to addiction when the person
is in denial, or so my AA mother used to say. "Leave him alone,", she'd
say, "he's not done with his drinking yet."
ColdBluICE
> : John Stanley wrote
> :> Stu wrote:
> :> Joe Kellett at
> :> The level of denial is staggering.
> :> The initial rants to the Blokes first
> :> posts was an amazing display.
> :> Even after they calmed down
> :> (no doubt a
> :> relaxation technique would help these people)
> :> they still insist that this
> :> guy's father's ills were brought on by depression
> :> (Judy knows about it
> :> because she used to be depressed,
> :> now the symptoms are masked by TM)
> :> or some chemical imbalance.
> snip
>
> : My thoughts after slogging through a bunch of those posts were: What
> : bloody fucking difference does it make if TM or an existing condition
> : caused the father's obsessive relationship to all things TM? The father
> : is a dysfunctional mess regardless of the cause! And, the real victim
> : here isn't the father in fantasyland but the mother who works her ass
> : off enabling him to live in that fantasyland.
> As I pointed out on TMNEWS, Bloke made it clear in that forum that he
> thinks TM is a crok. So Bloke blames TM for the patterns of his father's
> behavior when if fact TM is just the content of his obsession.
-Sir Kurt Arbuckle
The fallacy of *Ru-Land thinking?* is of course,...
if-,
tm indeed delievered as *Promised By Lil Brahmachari Mahesh*,...
and provided even the briefest moment of Bliss/Contentment. Then one
could safely assume the Blokes problems would have ended long ago and
tm would not become the- content of his obession, today!!!
(Ru-Land= Rota,.. or everyhere tm-ers obsess over tm!) and every other
B.S. program Mahesh sells (and exchanges for real money).
Joe Kellett
<E01CD822399A5111.B716AF6C...@lp.airnews.net>,
k...@starbase.neosoft.com says...
> John A. Stanley <j...@okranatel.net> wrote:
> : In article <B8D3680E....@no.spam>, Stu <nos...@no.spam> wrote:
> :>in article MPG.1716e6199...@news.earthlink.net, Joe Kellett at
> :>The level of denial is staggering. The initial rants to the Blokes first
<...>
>
> As I pointed out on TMNEWS, Bloke made it clear in that forum that he
> thinks TM is a crok. So Bloke blames TM for the patterns of his father's
> behavior when if fact TM is just the content of his obsession. It is like
> blaming the water for someone who is compulsive about washing his hands.
You assume facts not in evidence, i.e. that TM is not the immediate
cause of the symptoms. Indeed, there may be deeper causes, i.e. that
led him to TM addiction, as well.
>
> If bloke gets the "help" he is seeking and if that help "succeeds" bloke
> will have an equally messed up father, but the content of the pattern
> will likely be anti-TMism. It will work great for the father, becuase
> he can excuse his pattern of behavior as the effects of his former TM
> practice. Then he won't have to change his patterns. So bloke is actually
> seeking to do his father a diservice in the long run.
Assumes the same facts not in evidence.
>
> It is noteworthy that the only response I got was not from bloke, who was
> responding to everything else. Rather the response was from Joe Kellet.
Why is that noteworthy? Bloke was pretty busy answering ad hominem
arguments.
> He said that hidden in my comment was the asertion that TM is good.
I think I said is was a hidden assumption, or words to that effect.
>
> Of course that assertion is not in my comment. For purposes of my comment
> TM could actually be good or bad in itself, it is just not the proper
> focus of attention for the particular issue.
If TM is psychologically toxic to the father, than stopping TM would be
a "good thing" in addition to whatever other measures would also be
helpful.
> Of course if bloke has his
> way, his father will turn into a Joe Kellet.
Noooooooooooo!!!!!
--Joe
--
Joe Kellett
tan...@MyRealBox.com
www.suggestibility.org
Check out "Mumbull": www.mumbull.com . A common TM denial mechanism
says that these things happen *despite* Mahesh and his teachings. I
assert that they happen *because* of Mahesh and his teachings.
<...>
Jeff Ridley
Kurt Arbuckle <k...@starbase.neosoft.com> wrote in message
news:E01CD822399A5111.B716AF6C...@lp.airnews.net...
> As I pointed out on TMNEWS, Bloke made it clear in that forum that he
> thinks TM is a crok. So Bloke blames TM for the patterns of his father's
> behavior when if fact TM is just the content of his obsession.
OK. So TM is only the content of his obsession. But TM is supposed to work.
It is supposed to improve all aspects of life. Regardless of whether TM is
only the content of his obsession, why does the father have an increasing
number of personal problems after 20 years of practice?
Stefan Anderson
prescription the other day that wearing glasses has made my eyes worse
and that is why I need a
stronger prescription. However lots of people in the movement obviously
wear glasses, top people obviously
will TM save the world? looks like we are all going to very soon get an
answer to that question as it seems almost certain a 10,000 group will be
established very soon, if it doesn't work it will be plain to see and if
it does it will be plain to see for all
your Dad is making his own choices as he is entitled to do
Stu
4/5/02 3:41 PM:
> The level of denial is staggering. The initial rants to the Blokes first
> posts was an amazing display. Even after they calmed down (no doubt a
> relaxation technique would help these people) they still insist that this
> guy's father's ills were brought on by depression (Judy knows about it
> because she used to be depressed, now the symptoms are masked by TM) or some
> chemical imbalance.
Judy asked me to retract this aside that I happily will do. Apparently
Judy's brush with depression had subsided long before she learned TM. She
also pointed out that our own wonderful witch Delia feels that TM helped her
with suicidal depression.
My apologies to Judy. Must have been unstressing at the time. She made me
a little mad over at the other news group.
--
~Stu
Jeff Ridley
Kurt Arbuckle <k...@starbase.neosoft.com> wrote in message
news:E01CD822399A5111.B716AF6C...@lp.airnews.net...
> thinks TM is a crok. So Bloke blames TM for the patterns of his father's
> behavior when if fact TM is just the content of his obsession. It is like
> blaming the water for someone who is compulsive about washing his hands.
>
> If bloke gets the "help" he is seeking and if that help "succeeds" bloke
> will have an equally messed up father, but the content of the pattern
> will likely be anti-TMism. It will work great for the father, becuase
> he can excuse his pattern of behavior as the effects of his former TM
> practice. Then he won't have to change his patterns. So bloke is
actually
> seeking to do his father a diservice in the long run.
>
> It is noteworthy that the only response I got was not from bloke, who was
> responding to everything else. Rather the response was from Joe Kellet.
> He said that hidden in my comment was the asertion that TM is good.
>
> Of course that assertion is not in my comment. For purposes of my comment
> TM could actually be good or bad in itself, it is just not the proper
> focus of attention for the particular issue. Of course if bloke has his
> way, his father will turn into a Joe Kellet.
In your attempt to acquit TM of being the cause of the father's problems you
have inadvertently indicted it as being ineffective in curing his problems.
'blames TM for the patterns of his father's behavior'
'his obsession'
'messed up'
'he can excuse his pattern of behavior'
'won't have to change his patterns'
Thus you describe a 20 year veteran of TM and TM sidhis as a messed up
obsessive with blameworthy patterns of behaviour that should be changed.
Why? You present yourself here as a TM apologist. The debunkers here have
often maintained that the apologists do the debunkers the greatest service
by their utter ineptitude. Thank you.
happysnake
Petrus
"happysnake" <happys...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7c9df50d.02040...@posting.google.com...
> A sad story..
One of many...
Petrus
"Stefan Anderson" <shu...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:3CB08898...@sympatico.ca...
> as for wearing glasses my optometrist just told me when I got my new
> prescription the other day that wearing glasses has made my eyes worse
> and that is why I need a
> stronger prescription. However lots of people in the movement obviously
> wear glasses, top people obviously
> will TM save the world? looks like we are all going to very soon get an
> answer to that question as it seems almost certain a 10,000 group will be
They had over 10,000 bun hoppers in India before 9-11 what good did they do.
http://www.enmag.org/14/india.htm India still is a mess.
Are you still believing in this Maharishi Effect. Time to wake up.
http://www.unstress4less.org/Maharishi_Effect-mdefect.htm
Petrus
"Stu" <nos...@no.spam> wrote in message news:B8D67021.D0D1%nos...@no.spam...
> in article B8D3680E.D01C%nos...@no.spam, Stu at nos...@no.spam wrote on
> 4/5/02 3:41 PM:
>
> > The level of denial is staggering. The initial rants to the Blokes first
> > posts was an amazing display. Even after they calmed down (no doubt a
> > relaxation technique would help these people) they still insist that this
> > guy's father's ills were brought on by depression (Judy knows about it
> > because she used to be depressed, now the symptoms are masked by TM) or some
> > chemical imbalance.
>
> Judy asked me to retract this aside that I happily will do. Apparently
> Judy's brush with depression had subsided long before she learned TM. She
> also pointed out that our own wonderful witch Delia feels that TM helped her
> with suicidal depression.
Which is what would be predicted by the trance induced serotonin increases theory.
Petrus
"Jeff Ridley" <jri...@direct.ca> wrote in message news:uavaj69...@corp.supernews.com...
Are you implying that TM does NOT work?
Petrus
"Joe Kellett" <1f5c7p...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
> > It is easy to see how Bloke's father has fallen into this trap. It has
> > serious parallels with other cults that expect their followers to practice
> > certain actions under the guise of peer pressure like the Ragheads, Moonies
> > and Scientologists.
>
> Very close parallels.
>
> (Did I post this here yet?: www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuleaf.htm .)
Maybe someone should post a site like that with all the ridiculous believes that the TM0 has.
Jeff Ridley
Petrus <NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE> wrote in message
news:ub6afrj...@corp.supernews.com...
For myself it did zilch. Looking at my friends who stayed with TM many of
whom live in Fairfield, it would appear that it has done zilch. Looking at
most of the pro-TM respondants here at amt, most of whom exhibit personality
traits the opposite of those you would expect a meditator to exhibit, it
would appear to have done zilch. But then there's Stu and John A Stanley,
both sensible and reasonable guys. Both do TM and apparently derive some
benefit. But as far as I can recall, they are the ONLY two who have any
credibility here on amt. So if they say they derive benefit from TM, then I
believe that they do.
Joe Kellett
says...
--Joe
--
Joe Kellett
tan...@MyRealBox.com
www.suggestibility.org
Why I don't read or reply much to Judy:
www.suggestibility.org/judianPolemics.htm
Petrus
"Jeff Ridley" <jri...@direct.ca> wrote in message news:uba1thi...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Petrus <NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE> wrote in message
> news:ub6afrj...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> >
>
> For myself it did zilch. Looking at my friends who stayed with TM many of
> whom live in Fairfield, it would appear that it has done zilch. Looking at
> most of the pro-TM respondants here at amt, most of whom exhibit personality
> traits the opposite of those you would expect a meditator to exhibit, it
> would appear to have done zilch. But then there's Stu and John A Stanley,
> both sensible and reasonable guys. Both do TM and apparently derive some
> benefit. But as far as I can recall, they are the ONLY two who have any
> credibility here on amt. So if they say they derive benefit from TM, then I
> believe that they do.
>
For myself it did even less than for you.
Why do you think that it did anything for John? From what I just read he had an addiction for many years ( one Stu put in the
category of TM addiction being better than) (John I assume that you have been meditating well over 10 years here. If you have
not forgive me for this assumption) But TM was unable to help John overcome this addiction and it took a full shock experience
for him to come to his senses. So it seems that TM was powerless to help. Also John has claimed that too much TM (Sidhis) makes
him go " bonkers" (I believe the term used)
Stu how is the digestion these days?
But I have to agree that for some people trance induction (TM) will bring some benefits, but if the over all picture is
beneficial, I am not sure of that. Definitely a lot less than is promised.
............
"We are five and a half weeks away from permanent victory."
Dr. John Hagelin.
Set you clocks ladies and gentlemen.... World Peace will spontaneously
break out April 21. Countdown is starting..... 11 days till World
Peace....
..............
Petrus
"Joe Kellett" <1f5c7p...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message news:MPG.171eb0fd5...@news.earthlink.net...
> > >
> > > (Did I post this here yet?: www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuleaf.htm .)
> >
> > Maybe someone should post a site like that with all the ridiculous believes that the TM0 has.
> >
> >
> >
> Sounds like a good idea. Any other suggestions for content?
Well it would have to include paying (is this correct) $18,000 so someone can teach you to bounce on your buns for world peace...
Don't forget the"good, good, good" vedic vibrations (or is that copywritten)
And their King.
Where would you stop?
Stu
wrote on 4/11/02 11:29 AM:
Fine. Thank you.
I can't really come up with a causal link between my digestion and TM. When
I asked my doctors if the trouble is stress related they said no.
Fortunately I feel I have the problem managed if I can stick to my rather
bland diet (no fat, little sugar, no milk products) and continue my nightly
yoga asanas that seem to massage the intestines and relieve gas.
TM has, I believe, helped me in the pursuit of managing this problem by:
- increasing my ability of self discipline. I have noticed that I have
little difficulty with tasks that to others take huge amounts of self
discipline, like diet and exercise. I can't help but think that this
ability has been bolstered by my TM practice.
- Promoting healthy relaxation. I don't have any nervous habits. Nail
biting, anxiety, nightmares and such. I do have late night insomnia - but
that is always related a bad diet choice. It happens like clockwork 7 hours
after I eat something stupid.
>
> But I have to agree that for some people trance induction (TM) will bring some
> benefits, but if the over all picture is
> beneficial, I am not sure of that. Definitely a lot less than is promised.
I can't help but wonder if people don't run into problems when they get
involved with "advanced techniques" and Siddhis. I don't remember any of
these being discussed in SBAL. They are antithetical to His Holiness the
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's description of Transcendental Deep Meditation being
a lone innocent simple technique as discussed in SBAL. Has anyone
experienced toxicity from the original 2 x 20?
--
~Stu
John A. Stanley
"Petrus" <NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE> wrote:
>
>"Jeff Ridley" <jri...@direct.ca> wrote in message news:uba1thi...@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> Petrus <NOS...@NOWAY.NOWHERE> wrote in message
>> news:ub6afrj...@corp.supernews.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > Are you implying that TM does NOT work?
>>
>> For myself it did zilch. Looking at my friends who stayed with TM many of
>> whom live in Fairfield, it would appear that it has done zilch. Looking at
>> most of the pro-TM respondants here at amt, most of whom exhibit personality
>> traits the opposite of those you would expect a meditator to exhibit, it
>> would appear to have done zilch. But then there's Stu and John A Stanley,
>> both sensible and reasonable guys. Both do TM and apparently derive some
>> benefit. But as far as I can recall, they are the ONLY two who have any
>> credibility here on amt. So if they say they derive benefit from TM, then I
>> believe that they do.
>>
>he had an addiction for many years
Actually, I've had three 2-3 year drinking binges during my adult life,
all of them while completely "off the program". Yesterday, Petra asked
me to imagine what it would be like had Maharishi never existed, and I
shuddered to think of how my life would have played out without the
benefits of TM and living in Fairfield; I probably wouldn't even be
alive today.
>But TM was unable to help John overcome this addiction and it took a
>full shock experience for him to come to his senses. So it seems that
>TM was powerless to help.
My problems with alcohol all occurred during periods when I had stopped
meditating. TM not practiced is, of course, powerless. However, I find
TM beneficial in maintaining my sobriety.
>Also John has claimed that too much TM (Sidhis) makes him go " bonkers"
>(I believe the term used)
Rounding and the Sidhis are more than I can handle, but basic 2x20 TM is
perfectly fine for me.
Petrus
"John A. Stanley" <j...@okranatel.net> wrote in message news:1dkt849z...@okranatel.net...
> My problems with alcohol all occurred during periods when I had stopped
> meditating. TM not practiced is, of course, powerless. However, I find
> TM beneficial in maintaining my sobriety.
Then please accept my apologies for misunderstanding the situation.
Chet McCann
wrote:
<snip>
>a lone innocent simple technique as discussed in SBAL. Has anyone
>experienced toxicity from the original 2 x 20?
>--
>~Stu
>
Hi, Stu...
re: "toxicity from the original 2 x 20?" Again, it depends
on how you look at the question. Which is why I do not
respect simplistic statements and opinions. Everything
seems to require decent discussion.
I, like very many other meditators who did not take the
sidhis training, did (on the other hand) attend quite a
number of "residence courses" on which we did rounding.
One of these was a one-month course with MMY.
Perhaps this contributed to the fact that eventually even
10-15 minutes of TM became very powerful. So powerful that
I had frequent "unstressing" symptoms. Actually, these
symptoms became pretty continually present.
I have never been able to relate to the statements of
those TMer's who have said, with disappointment, TM does
nothing at all, or that TM is the same as cat napping.
I've been involved with Reiki for about a year and a half.
It has cleared away the remaining spaciness that TM
resulted in, plus dealt with a small carload of unresolved
emotional stuff that TM never dealt with, and tuned up my
body in certain ways that no amount of TM nor asanas nor
diet dealt with.
Having said this, I'm still open to TM's place in the
world of personal growth and Self-realization.
... Chet
Stu
mcca...@hotmail.com wrote on 4/13/02 8:41 AM:
> I've been involved with Reiki for about a year and a half.
> It has cleared away the remaining spaciness that TM
> resulted in, plus dealt with a small carload of unresolved
> emotional stuff that TM never dealt with, and tuned up my
> body in certain ways that no amount of TM nor asanas nor
> diet dealt with.
>
> Having said this, I'm still open to TM's place in the
> world of personal growth and Self-realization.
>
> ... Chet
Thank you for that. Reiki sounds very interesting. I have had a phone
number on my desk now since you first mentioned it and have not taken the
plunge yet.
--
~Stu