Param Sant Param Dayal Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj
sh...@my-deja.com
Chapter One of his book, "Truth Always Wins." It was taken from the Manav
Dayal website. Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj clearly advises us to seek a "Realized
Man," to learn spiritual truths, and practice "Sadhana," according to his
instructions. Param Sant Param Dayal Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj
Chapter One: Truth Always Wins One the basis of my personal experiences and
observations, I am expressing my views on the golden maxim "Only the Truth
Wins" for the benefit of the common man. I do not claim that whatever I say
is final. I have followed the path of Truth in order to reach a destination,
a destination without any end. The most important thing that is required in
Practical Life is how to attain contentment, peace and bliss while living. I
have spent my whole life in this very search. Now at this age of 87 I am
expressing my own experiences. I do not quote scriptures. I explain my
personal experiences of physical, mental and spiritual realms in simple
language. What is that truth by which we can attain happiness, prosperity,
solace, courage and peaceful living? Man is constituted of three things:
body, mind, and soul. Body represents gross nature, mind subtle nature, and
soul the causal nature. Human mind is most restive and it never remains calm.
It constantly originates multifarious thoughts causing joy and sorrow. The
entire creation both "Maya" (mental creation) and "Chaya" (physical creation)
is in fact the creation of the human mind. Until one does go beyond the
mental regions, one cannot attain freedom from the duality of good or bad,
sin or virtue, joy or sorrow, happiness or grief. Now the question is, how
to attain mental tranquility? In my view the company of a realized man who
has himself won over his mind is indispensable. His company and his words can
works wonder for you provided you have faith in him. From his company you can
to a great extent free yourself from wrong notions, bad thoughts and
destructive impressions. As your practical life is a by-product of your
mental creations, the purity of thought and mind is the first and foremost
necessity for a happy and blissful living. I may make it very clear here,
that until a man realizes the truth and attains true knowledge, he may enjoy
temporary Anand [Supreme Bliss] from Sat Sang. But such a man is likely to
face a miserable downfall due to his destructive thinking and uncontrolled
mind. So the second truth is the purity of thought and mind to attain the
Supreme State of Bliss. If Sat Sang (company of the realized man) gives only
temporal Anand and not the Supreme Anand, and if there is a likelihood of
one's downfall at any stage, what is the solution to attain mental purity,
true knowledge and the supreme Bliss? I think its solution is inward practice
(Sadhana). One should practice Sadhana and attain that state where thoughts
or cravings originate. That state is known as the place of Bindoo (Zero) of
Om, a state of thoughtlessness, "Mahasunna" or the Tenth Door. Even at this
stage, mind generates evil or good thoughts. But here man can subdue his
mind, if he so desires. So at the mental state, the application of the maxim
"only truth wins" is the complete surrender of mind to the Guru and to follow
his dictates with strong determination. The word of the Guru merges the mind
of a true aspirant into the ocean of thoughtlessness. It is correct that all
religious books such as The Bhagvat Gita, The Ramayna, The Adi Granth, The
Bible and The Quran have laid down principles to attain this state for
mankind. But they are not applicable to all every individual. Every
individual has his own nature according to his previous deeds, his present
circumstances and external influences on his mind. So keeping in view this
Truth, only a living Guru is the Supreme arbiter who knows what particular
path would be useful and beneficial to a particular individual for making his
life happy and blissful. Only the Guru knows what a particular thought a
particular man should entertain in his mind after having the experience of
thoughtlessness (Nirvikalapa). By attaining this stage, the aspirant's mind
becomes tranquil. And if he practices Sadhana without any aim, he is likely
to fall and commit blunders due to external influences of his surroundings.
Sadhana is not an end in itself. It is a mean to attain ultimate peace,
solace, Bliss and the knowledge of the "Self." Those who do not undertake
Sadhana with an aim of self-realization face a miserable downfall sooner or
later. He who meditates on the center of "Om" must make further efforts to
attain this state of thoughtlessness. In worldly life, too, if parents are
wise, they must be obeyed for gaining happiness in this world. And for
undertaking Sadhana of mental regions obedience to the Guru is most
essential. It is not advisable for every individual to follow the same path.
To make the mind, its stages and its creations favorable, the greatest
essential Truth is the Sat Sang of a realized man, love for him, faith in him
and above all, obedience to his words. His guidance for attaining the state
of thoughtlessness must be followed with determination, devotion and with
regular Sadhana (Practice). Entertain noble, virtuous and positive thoughts
as initiated by the Guru. I had a keen desire to know the truth. Data Dayal
Ji [Faqir Chand's Guru] led me through practical Sadhana in order to make me
realize the Truth. Today, by His Grace, due to my own experiences and
experiences of the Sat Sangis. I have been able to realize that "truth always
wins." PEACE TO ALL
> Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj (1886-1981) was a disciple of Shivbrat Lal Ji Maharaj, aka Data Dayal Ji Maharaj. Shivbrat Lal Ji Maharaj was a disciple of Rai Saligram Ji Maharaj. Rai Saligram Ji Maharaj was a disciple of Soami Ji Maharaj (1818-1878). Soami Ji Maharaj was a disciple of Tulsi Sahib Ji Maharaj.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Maharaj hhas given you wonderful advice, it would be nice if all
practicianers of Sant Mat would follow it.
To bad you have cut and pasted this... seeing as you OBVIOUSLY have
not heeded the advice given,,, please READ the post BELOW...
Very good post :-) Wish MM would live by what it says.
>> Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj (1886-1981) was a disciple of Shivbrat Lal Ji Maharaj, aka Data Dayal Ji Maharaj.
>>Shivbrat Lal Ji Maharaj was a disciple of Rai Saligram Ji Maharaj.
>>Rai Saligram Ji Maharaj was a disciple of Soami Ji Maharaj (1818-1878).
>>Soami Ji Maharaj was a disciple of Tulsi Sahib Ji Maharaj.
>
>Michael Martin
>http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
G. Michael Turner
Lane's alltime favorite gurus.
In Naam Eternal,
Gregory Michael Turner
Satguru Emeritus
R. Floyd Pickett
that held immediately before your retirement.
Do you claim to have knowingly appeared within the inner vision of those that you
initiated? How do you feel about the following passage from Chand's work?
"Sant Tara Chand told me that I had helped him in reaping his
crop of grams. Other people also narrate such instances, but I do not
go anywhere. I did not initiate them, but they believe that I am
their Guru. Their belief in me has helped me to realize the Truth.
What Truth? The Truth is that all these manifestations of Guru, God,
Goddess, Rama or Krishna are not a Reality, but an illusion. I am
convinced of this Truth. With this realization I have attained Peace.
The root cause of disquietude is mind. Once its real form is
recognized, you attain Peace. I have recognized the real form of my
mind. Sant Kabir writes:
Disciple bows to the Guru, tis known to all!
Guru bows to the disciple, tis very rare!
This is the secret of Sant Mat (belief of the Saints) which was kept
intact behind the iron curtain of gurudom. I have removed this
curtain. His Holiness Swami Ji Maharaj revealed this secret through
symbols. Once one disciple said to Swami Ji, "Rai Saligram Sahib is
your great devotee and true disciple." His Holiness replied, "Who
knows whether Salig Ram is my Guru or I am his." Similarly Hazur Data
Dayal Ji Maharaj used to say about me. Whenever I visited His
Holiness at Lahore, He used to say in his discourses, "This Faqir has
come to enlighten me and to lead me beyond the Phantasmagoria." This
secret has caused a great harm to mankind. We householders have been
befooled by the so called gurus. Our hard earnings have been taken
away by them and even then they expect that we should remain in their
very circle ever bowing to their feet. Many people come and prostrate
before me as well. Why? Because they are not aware of the Truth.
They are ignorant of the Secret. I often say that I have come from
the Anami Dham, the Nameless Abode, to tell that "O man, know thyself
by thyself." There is no difference between you and a Guru. But you
are ignorant and you are very much governed by your mind. You run
after the gurus and sadhus for the fulfillment of your worldly
desires. You make humble entreaties to the gurus. When these gurus
themselves have disobedient and characterless children, and when they
themselves do not have good relations with their wives, how do you
think that they would do any good to you? Therefore, I again
emphasize my point, "O man! your good lies in your own deeds." A True
Guru simply reveals to you the secret or the Truth. The Truth is that
this world is a field of the deeds. Whatever deeds you or I have
done, we must face their results. No power on earth can protect us.
This is the Truth."
Faqir Chand
http://www.inlink.com/~rife/faqir5.txt
--
"I stopped lying around the time that the truth became unbelievable."
Alana Keres,
Experimental Ontologist
G. Michael Turner
great guy, and a very inspired master. I put the concept of master being
simultaneously aware of all his/her chelas' doings in the same category of a
person being simultaneously aware of the goings of of every hair follicle on
their body. If you place your attention there, you can - but it's an
incredible clutter to the cerebral cortex to spread it out that thin.
Currently, I'm enjoying my retirement, playing in the Tucson blues band MK
Ultra and spending time with my wife and family. Life is good.
Saw a great band last night - The Sons of the Pioneers - They'll be in
Branson, MO in the near future and are well worth checking out.
Have a great weekend.
gmt
jody
[snip]
> Those guys [the creators of South Park]
> are very bright, and astute observers of American culture and all of it's
> foibles. It's definitely worth renting.
That observation makes it offical, you are a Sat Guru GMT!
love--jodyr.
sh...@my-deja.com
"G. Michael Turner" <m.tu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I'm glad to see you like Faqir Chand, Mr. M. He is one of my friend David
> Lane's alltime favorite gurus.
>
> In Naam Eternal,
>
> Gregory Michael Turner
> Satguru Emeritus
>
Yes, I have to like him. I saw in meditation that he was a True Param Sant.
His Guru, Shivbrat Lal Maharaj, must have been one, also.
Yes, Prof. Lane has had quite a discussion going about Faqir Ji Maharaj. He
was such an enigmatic Master. In many ways he was a traditional Sant Mat
Guru, and in other ways, he was quite unconventional. The former appeals to
me more, and the latter appeals to Prof. Lane more. I guess you could say
that Faqir Ji Maharaj offered something for everybody!
sh...@my-deja.com
"R. Floyd Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> I see by your signature that you claim to retain an honorary title corresponding to
> that held immediately before your retirement.
>
> Do you claim to have knowingly appeared within the inner vision of those that you
> initiated? How do you feel about the following passage from Chand's work?
>
> "Sant Tara Chand told me that I had helped him in reaping his
> crop of grams.
This is possible, because Faqir Chand Ji was God in human form. Those who
have great love and faith in the Sat Guru, will invoke the grace of the Lord.
I have been trying to make this point for a long time, now.
> Other people also narrate such instances, but I do not
> go anywhere.
Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is telling the truth. His PHYSICAL FORM is not going
anywhere. Sant Mat teachings are very explicit that the Master is not just
an ordinary physical human being, his real form is the SHABD, NAM, OR HOLY
SPIRIT.
Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is so extremely humble, that he is trying to deny that
he is God in human form. He wants to preserve his humility at all costs.
> I did not initiate them, but they believe that I am
> their Guru.
The important thing is, that there is love and faith in the Master, and the
Master already loves everybody, including those who are not his followers.
If the seeker has enough love and faith, even though he has not been formally
initiated, then it will invoke the grace of the Lord, as I already mentioned
above.
> Their belief in me has helped me to realize the Truth.
> What Truth? The Truth is that all these manifestations of Guru, God,
> Goddess, Rama or Krishna are not a Reality, but an illusion.
Of course, the Absolute Reality is found at Anami Radha Soami Dham (Home of
the Nameless Lord of the Soul). The Radiant Form of the Master at these
lower planes is illusion, but it can still bestow miracles on us.
Perhaps, out of his grace and mercy, Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj was exhorting the
faithful to go beyond his Radiant Form, beyond mind and matter, to the level
of Absolute Reality.
> I am
> convinced of this Truth. With this realization I have attained Peace.
> The root cause of disquietude is mind. Once its real form is
> recognized, you attain Peace. I have recognized the real form of my
> mind.
Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj had taken his mind to its REAL HOME, the SHABD, NAM,
OR HOLY SPIRIT.
> Sant Kabir writes:
>
> Disciple bows to the Guru, tis known to all!
>
> Guru bows to the disciple, tis very rare!
>
> This is the secret of Sant Mat (belief of the Saints) which was kept
> intact behind the iron curtain of gurudom. I have removed this
> curtain. His Holiness Swami Ji Maharaj revealed this secret through
> symbols. Once one disciple said to Swami Ji, "Rai Saligram Sahib is
> your great devotee and true disciple." His Holiness replied, "Who
> knows whether Salig Ram is my Guru or I am his." Similarly Hazur Data
> Dayal Ji Maharaj used to say about me. Whenever I visited His
> Holiness at Lahore, He used to say in his discourses, "This Faqir has
> come to enlighten me and to lead me beyond the Phantasmagoria." This
> secret has caused a great harm to mankind. We householders have been
> befooled by the so called gurus. Our hard earnings have been taken
> away by them and even then they expect that we should remain in their
> very circle ever bowing to their feet. Many people come and prostrate
> before me as well. Why? Because they are not aware of the Truth.
> They are ignorant of the Secret. I often say that I have come from
> the Anami Dham, the Nameless Abode, to tell that "O man, know thyself
> by thyself."
That statement by Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is pretty clear. He was sent to
this world as a Guruavatar. He was sent to teach us how to know ourselves,
and that means know God, also, because HE is found within us.
Naturally, when a Saint bows to a disciple, it is very rare. However, the
instances above, which he mentioned involved FOUR SAINTS, so then we can
understand it.
Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj throws up a smokescreen, and then we have to analyze
just what he is saying to us. His statements are designed for the
discerning, true seekers. His statements which seem to oppose Gurudom, are
most likely, designed to filter out the insincere seekers. It is sort of a
test, to separate the wheat from the chaff. Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj was the
Lord in human form. He was inscrutable. Those who bowed at his HOLY FEET
did the right thing, and what they did, invoked the grace of the Lord.
> There is no difference between you and a Guru. But you
> are ignorant and you are very much governed by your mind. You run
> after the gurus and sadhus for the fulfillment of your worldly
> desires. You make humble entreaties to the gurus. When these gurus
> themselves have disobedient and characterless children, and when they
> themselves do not have good relations with their wives, how do you
> think that they would do any good to you? Therefore, I again
> emphasize my point, "O man! your good lies in your own deeds." A True
> Guru simply reveals to you the secret or the Truth.
Again, Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj has thrown up a smokescreen to filter out the
insincere seekers. The BOTTOM LINE is just as he wrote above, however. We
need to have the truth revealed by a True Guru. Notice, he said True Guru,
and not any Guru. We have to use our judgement and discretion, when
selecting a Guru.
> The Truth is that
> this world is a field of the deeds. Whatever deeds you or I have
> done, we must face their results. No power on earth can protect us.
> This is the Truth."
Yes, this is a Sant Mat teaching, that we have to reap whatever crop we have
sown. He mentions "power on earth," but he doesn't say that the "power in
heaven," i.e. the Shabd, Nam, or Holy spirit, can't protect us. Once again,
Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is making self-effacing statements. Thay don't affect
the sincere seekers at all, because the know the REAL FORM of Faqir Chand Ji
Maharaj is the SHABD, NAM, OR HOLY SPIRIT. This type of statement will
filter out the insincere seekers. Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj has intentionally
given his teachings in an opaque way. He was very selective in choosing his
disciples.
>
> Faqir Chand
> http://www.inlink.com/~rife/faqir5.txt
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
> "G. Michael Turner" wrote:
> >
> > I'm glad to see you like Faqir Chand, Mr. M. He is one of my friend David
> > Lane's alltime favorite gurus.
> >
> > In Naam Eternal,
> >
> > Gregory Michael Turner
> > Satguru Emeritus
>
> --
> "I stopped lying around the time that the truth became unbelievable."
>
> Alana Keres,
> Experimental Ontologist
>
R. Floyd Pickett
>
> Ahhh Richard, give it a rest. All I was saying is that I think Faqir was a
> great guy, and a very inspired master. I put the concept of master being
> simultaneously aware of all his/her chelas' doings in the same category of a
> person being simultaneously aware of the goings of of every hair follicle on
> their body. If you place your attention there, you can - but it's an
> incredible clutter to the cerebral cortex to spread it out that thin.
Well, then you are in disagreement with Faqir Chand.
He said that these gurus were not aware of their chelas doings.
"Patanjali, the great sage, has
written in his book on Yoga that if you cannot do any inward practice
then at least contemplate on the holy form of a Perfect Man. Now the
question is, where would you search for a Perfect Man? I say that
wherever or in whomsoever you have faith think that He is a Perfect
Man and Omnipotent [and] your purpose shall be served. If my form
manifests itself and helps those who have faith in me, then the form
of other gurus also manifest themselves to their disciples and helps
them. Leave aside the Saints, you put a wicked and immoral person on
the seat of a Guru, develop faith in him, his form too shall manifest
and help you like the manifested form of the great Saints. You are
not helped by any Saint or Guru, but by your own faith and belief."
Faqir Chand, "The Unknowing Sage"
http://www.inlink.com/~rife/faqir6.txt
G. Michael Turner
basically the same thing Darwin said - sometimes you know, and sometimes you
don't. Your left testicle is part of your body, right (at least if you're a
guy)? But are you always aware of what it's feeling? Probably not. But if
it gets caught in your zipper (like in "There's something About Mary"), you
can be darn sure you'll feel it. Same dif. Initiates become like cells in
the body of the inner master. They are always being fed by Naam and are
comforted by It. And if they cry out for help, the inner - and sometimes
outer - master's attention turns to them (see example above).
But like I said, I ain't here to quibble about doctrinal bs - it's another
lame version of how many angels can dance on a head of a pin, or how many
guitar players it takes to change a light bulb (answer - 100 - 1 to do it,
and 99 to say "I could have done that"). Just another silly game of the
mind.
Speaking of games - I just finished watching "Basketball," that flick that
Trey Parker and Matt Stone did before "South Park - Bigger, Longer and
Uncut." It's not as good as the "South Park" movie (which I've probably
seen about a half-dozen times now - Blockbuster's got it for $10, used), but
it's still really funny, and better than "Orgasmo" (the sensitive story of a
Mormon missionary who becomes a porn star in order to make enough money to
get married to his sweetheart at the temple in Salt Lake City). Those guys
are very bright, and astute observers of American culture and all of it's
foibles. It's definitely worth renting.
Anyhow, enjoy your mental mcf. I need some shuteye. Sweet dreams.
gmt
PS - I think there's a rally to support the confederate flag next week. You
might want to check it out.
R. Floyd Pickett wrote in message <38F1572D...@naxs.com>...
R. Floyd Pickett
you are right Michael Martin, even you can serve as a guru according to Faqir Chand.
"Patanjali, the great sage, has written in his book on Yoga that if you cannot do any
inward practice then at least contemplate on the holy form of a Perfect Man. Now the
question is, where would you search for a Perfect Man? I say that wherever or in
whomsoever you have faith think that He is a Perfect Man and Omnipotent [and] your
purpose shall be served. If my form manifests itself and helps those who have faith in
me, then the form of other gurus also manifest themselves to their disciples and helps
them. Leave aside the Saints, you put a wicked and immoral person on the seat of a
Guru [even Michael Martin or G. Michael Turner], develop faith in him, his form too
shall manifest and help you like the manifested form of the great Saints. You are not
helped by any Saint or Guru, but by your own faith and belief."
Faqir Chand, "The Unknowing Sage"
http://www.inlink.com/~rife/faqir6.txt
sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <38F0C2D4...@naxs.com>,
> "R. Floyd Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > I see by your signature that you claim to retain an honorary title corresponding to
> > that held immediately before your retirement.
> >
> > Do you claim to have knowingly appeared within the inner vision of those that you
> > initiated? How do you feel about the following passage from Chand's work?
> >
> > "Sant Tara Chand told me that I had helped him in reaping his
> > crop of grams.
>
> This is possible, because Faqir Chand Ji was God in human form. Those who
> have great love and faith in the Sat Guru, will invoke the grace of the Lord.
> I have been trying to make this point for a long time, now.
>
> > Other people also narrate such instances, but I do not
> > go anywhere. [ in other words, Michael, NO, Faqir Chand did not help Sant Tara Chand. Faqir is a MAN, not GOD.]
>
> Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is telling the truth. His PHYSICAL FORM is not going
> anywhere. Sant Mat teachings are very explicit that the Master is not just
> an ordinary physical human being, his real form is the SHABD, NAM, OR HOLY
> SPIRIT.
Faqir says that the HOLY FORM is created by the faith and devotion of the disciple. It
has no separate reality.
> Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is so extremely humble, that he is trying to deny that
> he is God in human form. He wants to preserve his humility at all costs.
Chand is not posing under some false humility. He is being straightforward. He is a
MAN, not GOD.
>
> > I did not initiate them, but they believe that I am
> > their Guru.
>
> The important thing is, that there is love and faith in the Master, and the
> Master already loves everybody, including those who are not his followers.
> If the seeker has enough love and faith, even though he has not been formally
> initiated, then it will invoke the grace of the Lord, as I already mentioned
> above.
Yes, accrding to Faqir, it is the faith, love and devotion of the disciple, not the
actions of a guru that create the HOLY FORM in the inner vision.
> > Their belief in me has helped me to realize the Truth.
> > What Truth? The Truth is that all these manifestations of Guru, God,
> > Goddess, Rama or Krishna are not a Reality, but an illusion.
>
> Of course, the Absolute Reality is found at Anami Radha Soami Dham (Home of
> the Nameless Lord of the Soul). The Radiant Form of the Master at these
> lower planes is illusion, but it can still bestow miracles on us.
The Radiant Form, according to Faqir, has no reality. It bestows nothing. It is an
illusion created by the mind of the devotee.
> Perhaps, out of his grace and mercy, Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj was exhorting the
> faithful to go beyond his Radiant Form, beyond mind and matter, to the level
> of Absolute Reality.
> > I am
> > convinced of this Truth. With this realization I have attained Peace.
> > The root cause of disquietude is mind. Once its real form is
> > recognized, you attain Peace. I have recognized the real form of my
> > mind.
>
> Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj had taken his mind to its REAL HOME, the SHABD, NAM,
> OR HOLY SPIRIT.
Faqir found peace when he realized that the manifestations of Guru, God, Goddess, Rama,
or Krishna are not a Reality, but an illusion created by his own mind.
> > Sant Kabir writes:
> >
> > Disciple bows to the Guru, tis known to all!
> >
> > Guru bows to the disciple, tis very rare!
> >
> > This is the secret of Sant Mat (belief of the Saints) which was kept
> > intact behind the iron curtain of gurudom. I have removed this
> > curtain. His Holiness Swami Ji Maharaj revealed this secret through
> > symbols. Once one disciple said to Swami Ji, "Rai Saligram Sahib is
> > your great devotee and true disciple." His Holiness replied, "Who
> > knows whether Salig Ram is my Guru or I am his." Similarly Hazur Data
> > Dayal Ji Maharaj used to say about me. Whenever I visited His
> > Holiness at Lahore, He used to say in his discourses, "This Faqir has
> > come to enlighten me and to lead me beyond the Phantasmagoria." This
> > secret has caused a great harm to mankind. We householders have been
> > befooled by the so called gurus. Our hard earnings have been taken
> > away by them and even then they expect that we should remain in their
> > very circle ever bowing to their feet. Many people come and prostrate
> > before me as well. Why? Because they are not aware of the Truth.
> > They are ignorant of the Secret. I often say that I have come from
> > the Anami Dham, the Nameless Abode, to tell that "O man, know thyself
> > by thyself."
>
> That statement by Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is pretty clear. He was sent to
> this world as a Guruavatar. He was sent to teach us how to know ourselves,
> and that means know God, also, because HE is found within us.
Nowhere does Chand claim to be a Guruavatar. His message was, "O Man, know thyself by
thyself."
>
> Naturally, when a Saint bows to a disciple, it is very rare. However, the
> instances above, which he mentioned involved FOUR SAINTS, so then we can
> understand it.
Kabir's words mean that is is rare for an external guru to realize that it is the
disciple that creates the inner manifestation of the guru, and to bow to the disciple
as the creator of the form. Too often, the disciple bows mistakenly to the guru for
what he created himself.
> Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj throws up a smokescreen, and then we have to analyze
> just what he is saying to us. His statements are designed for the
> discerning, true seekers. His statements which seem to oppose Gurudom, are
> most likely, designed to filter out the insincere seekers. It is sort of a
> test, to separate the wheat from the chaff. Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj was the
> Lord in human form. He was inscrutable. Those who bowed at his HOLY FEET
> did the right thing, and what they did, invoked the grace of the Lord.
SMOKESCREEN! Ridculous. Chand is one of the most transparent writers on RS. The only
smoke here is being blown by you, Michael. Chand was a MAN. His motto was BE MAN!
> > There is no difference between you and a Guru. But you
> > are ignorant and you are very much governed by your mind. You run
> > after the gurus and sadhus for the fulfillment of your worldly
> > desires. You make humble entreaties to the gurus. When these gurus
> > themselves have disobedient and characterless children, and when they
> > themselves do not have good relations with their wives, how do you
> > think that they would do any good to you? Therefore, I again
> > emphasize my point, "O man! your good lies in your own deeds." A True
> > Guru simply reveals to you the secret or the Truth.
>
> Again, Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj has thrown up a smokescreen to filter out the
> insincere seekers. The BOTTOM LINE is just as he wrote above, however. We
> need to have the truth revealed by a True Guru. Notice, he said True Guru,
> and not any Guru. We have to use our judgement and discretion, when
> selecting a Guru.
Again, you refuse to accept what Chand has transparently written. The True Guru,
according to Chand, is one that shows you that you have created the inner
manifestations through your own faith and devotion without any outside assistance from
a guru.
> > The Truth is that
> > this world is a field of the deeds. Whatever deeds you or I have
> > done, we must face their results. No power on earth can protect us.
> > This is the Truth."
>
> Yes, this is a Sant Mat teaching, that we have to reap whatever crop we have
> sown. He mentions "power on earth," but he doesn't say that the "power in
> heaven," i.e. the Shabd, Nam, or Holy spirit, can't protect us. Once again,
> Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is making self-effacing statements. Thay don't affect
> the sincere seekers at all, because the know the REAL FORM of Faqir Chand Ji
> Maharaj is the SHABD, NAM, OR HOLY SPIRIT. This type of statement will
> filter out the insincere seekers. Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj has intentionally
> given his teachings in an opaque way. He was very selective in choosing his
> disciples.
The REAL FORM that you continually cite was said to be an illusion created by the mind
of the disciple according to Chand. There is nothing opague about Chand's teachings.
They are crystal clear in their meaning, and it is self evident that you do not
understand Chand's words.
R. Floyd Pickett
R. Floyd Pickett
>
> Geez dude, why are you always trying to pick nits? What I'm saying is
> basically the same thing Darwin said - sometimes you know, and sometimes you
> don't. Your left testicle is part of your body, right (at least if you're a
> guy)? But are you always aware of what it's feeling? Probably not. But if
> it gets caught in your zipper (like in "There's something About Mary"), you
> can be darn sure you'll feel it. Same dif. Initiates become like cells in
> the body of the inner master. They are always being fed by Naam and are
> comforted by It. And if they cry out for help, the inner - and sometimes
> outer - master's attention turns to them (see example above).
Obviously, Darwin and you are in disagreement with Faqir Chand. Thank you for the
clarification.
> But like I said, I ain't here to quibble about doctrinal bs - it's another
> lame version of how many angels can dance on a head of a pin, or how many
> guitar players it takes to change a light bulb (answer - 100 - 1 to do it,
> and 99 to say "I could have done that"). Just another silly game of the
> mind.
It isn't a matter of doctrine to Faqir Chand. It is a matter of Truth to him. Your
analogy of dancing angels does not apply. Why do you attempt to dismiss the matter as
merely an exercise in theory when Chand clearly considers it to be the core issue of
his ministry?
> PS - I think there's a rally to support the confederate flag next week. You
> might want to check it out.
Why would I want to check out a rally to support a flag that was never the official
flag of the Confederacy, but a battle flag created to differentiate the Confederate
flag from the Union flag in battles that took place over 135 years ago? I don't own a
Confederate flag. I am not a member of any organization celebrating the Confederacy.
What is the relevance of your comment?
You on the other hand claim to be a Sat Guru Emeritus that had knowledge of
manifestations to your initiates. That is the topic, Mr. Turner. Neither am I
interested in televised cartoons, sporting events, or musicians' tours.
What we were discussing was whether or not you agreed with Faqir Chand on the modus
operandi of inner visions. You are decidedly in the opposite camp from Faqir. Perhaps,
you could tell us why you disagree with him, and if Rajinder Singh, whom you have
directed others to for initiation, has any stance on the topic.
> R. Floyd Pickett wrote in message <38F1572D...@naxs.com>...
> >"G. Michael Turner" wrote:
> >>
> >> Ahhh Richard, give it a rest. All I was saying is that I think Faqir was
> a great guy, and a very inspired master. I put the concept of master being
> >> simultaneously aware of all his/her chelas' doings in the same category
> of a person being simultaneously aware of the goings of of every hair follicle
> on their body. If you place your attention there, you can - but it's an
> >> incredible clutter to the cerebral cortex to spread it out that thin.
> >
> >Well, then you are in disagreement with Faqir Chand.
> >He said that these gurus were not aware of their chelas' doings.
> >
> >
> >"Patanjali, the great sage, has
> >written in his book on Yoga that if you cannot do any inward practice
> >then at least contemplate on the holy form of a Perfect Man. Now the
> >question is, where would you search for a Perfect Man? I say that
> >wherever or in whomsoever you have faith think that He is a Perfect
> >Man and Omnipotent [and] your purpose shall be served. If my form
> >manifests itself and helps those who have faith in me, then the form
> >of other gurus also manifest themselves to their disciples and helps
> >them. Leave aside the Saints, you put a wicked and immoral person on
> >the seat of a Guru, develop faith in him, his form too shall manifest
> >and help you like the manifested form of the great Saints. You are
> >not helped by any Saint or Guru, but by your own faith and belief."
> >
> >Faqir Chand, "The Unknowing Sage"
> >http://www.inlink.com/~rife/faqir6.txt
rfp
sh...@my-deja.com
"R. Floyd Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> Well, the question was addressed to G. Michael Turner, but since you've jumped in here,
> you are right Michael Martin, even you can serve as a guru according to Faqir Chand.
Yes, those who have the authority of Anami Purush can serve as a Guru.
>
> "Patanjali, the great sage, has written in his book on Yoga that if you cannot do any
> inward practice then at least contemplate on the holy form of a Perfect Man. Now the
> question is, where would you search for a Perfect Man? I say that wherever or in
> whomsoever you have faith think that He is a Perfect Man and Omnipotent [and] your
> purpose shall be served.
This statement is really nothing new.
> If my form manifests itself and helps those who have faith in
> me, then the form of other gurus also manifest themselves to their disciples and helps
> them.
"Help" is a very vague word, here. It could be an lot of things. It could
be just increased concentration of mind. It is well-known that a
concentrated mind is more helpful than a scattered mind.
> Leave aside the Saints, you put a wicked and immoral person on the seat of a
> Guru [even Michael Martin or G. Michael Turner], develop faith in him, his form too
> shall manifest and help you like the manifested form of the great Saints.
There is a catch to this. If we put a "wicked" person, for example, Jeffrey
Dahmer, on the seat of the Guru, who would have faith in him? Perhaps,
nobody!
For the sincere seekers, it is easy to have faith in the True Master, however.
> You are not
> helped by any Saint or Guru, but by your own faith and belief."
I have already discussed the possible ramifications of "help." Any
concentration is better than no concentration. He does not say that this
help will take us to the Father. The word "help" is opaque and vague, here.
>
> Faqir Chand, "The Unknowing Sage"
> http://www.inlink.com/~rife/faqir6.txt
>
> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <38F0C2D4...@naxs.com>,
> > "R. Floyd Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
<snip>
Faqir Chand Ji:
> > > "Sant Tara Chand told me that I had helped him in reaping his
> > > crop of grams.
> >
> > This is possible, because Faqir Chand Ji was God in human form. Those who
> > have great love and faith in the Sat Guru, will invoke the grace of the Lord.
> > I have been trying to make this point for a long time, now.
> >
> > > Other people also narrate such instances, but I do not
> > > go anywhere. [ in other words, Michael, NO, Faqir Chand did not help Sant Tara Chand. Faqir is a MAN, not GOD.]
Richard, he didn't say that at all. Sant Tara chand got help from the Sat
Guru, Faqir Chand Ji, from the Shabd Form of Faqir Ji, which of course is
omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
Faqir Chand Ji is still God.
> >
> > Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is telling the truth. His PHYSICAL FORM is not going
> > anywhere. Sant Mat teachings are very explicit that the Master is not just
> > an ordinary physical human being, his real form is the SHABD, NAM, OR HOLY
> > SPIRIT.
>
> Faqir says that the HOLY FORM is created by the faith and devotion of the disciple. It
> has no separate reality.
If a beggar is holding out a beggar's bowl, and someone throws some money in
it, you can say the money came as a result of the begging. You could also
say that it was the result of someone's kindness. Faqir Chand Ji is saying,
in a self-effacing way, that the disciple is creating everything. You can
say it either way. Both ways are correct. It is always a combination of the
disciple's effort and the Master's grace. Faqir Ji, out of humility, is
giving the disciple all of the credit, and he is taking none of the credit.
It is just an example of extreme humility.
>
> > Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is so extremely humble, that he is trying to deny that
> > he is God in human form. He wants to preserve his humility at all costs.
>
> Chand is not posing under some false humility. He is being straightforward. He is a
> MAN, not GOD.
He said he came here from Anami Dham (Nameless Home), also. That means he
was an incarnation of the Supreme Being.
> >
> > > I did not initiate them, but they believe that I am
> > > their Guru.
> >
> > The important thing is, that there is love and faith in the Master, and the
> > Master already loves everybody, including those who are not his followers.
> > If the seeker has enough love and faith, even though he has not been formally
> > initiated, then it will invoke the grace of the Lord, as I already mentioned
> > above.
>
> Yes, according to Faqir, it is the faith, love and devotion of the disciple, not the
> actions of a guru that create the HOLY FORM in the inner vision.
Faith in what? It is Faith in the Sat Guru which invokes these instances of
the Lord's grace. How could we have faith in somebody, whom we do not
respect? How could we have respect in a Jeffrey Dahmer, for example?
>
> > > Their belief in me has helped me to realize the Truth.
> > > What Truth? The Truth is that all these manifestations of Guru, God,
> > > Goddess, Rama or Krishna are not a Reality, but an illusion.
> >
> > Of course, the Absolute Reality is found at Anami Radha Soami Dham (Home of
> > the Nameless Lord of the Soul). The Radiant Form of the Master at these
> > lower planes is illusion, but it can still bestow miracles on us.
>
> The Radiant Form, according to Faqir, has no reality. It bestows nothing. It is an
> illusion created by the mind of the devotee.
Yes, that is right. But how is it created by the mind of the devotee? As I
just wrote above, we must have faith in someone for whom we have respect. A
sincere seeker will have faith in the Sat Guru.
He didn't say the Radiant Form bestows nothing. He said his own Master led
him to Realization. That is SOMETHING. He is just saying that the
disciple's effort invokes the appearance of the Radiant Form of the Sat Guru.
It is illusion, but with it's help, it will lead us out of the illusion to
the absolute reality.
>
> > Perhaps, out of his grace and mercy, Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj was exhorting the
> > faithful to go beyond his Radiant Form, beyond mind and matter, to the level
> > of Absolute Reality.
No comment?
>
> > > I am
> > > convinced of this Truth. With this realization I have attained Peace.
> > > The root cause of disquietude is mind. Once its real form is
> > > recognized, you attain Peace. I have recognized the real form of my
> > > mind.
> >
> > Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj had taken his mind to its REAL HOME, the SHABD, NAM,
> > OR HOLY SPIRIT.
>
> Faqir found peace when he realized that the manifestations of Guru, God, Goddess, Rama,
> or Krishna are not a Reality, but an illusion created by his own mind.
Yes, that is what I said. He took mind to its True Home, the Shabd.
If he came from Anami Dham, then that is what he was! Yes, we can know God
by following a Sat Guru, and consequently, know ourselves.
> >
> > Naturally, when a Saint bows to a disciple, it is very rare. However, the
> > instances above, which he mentioned involved FOUR SAINTS, so then we can
> > understand it.
>
> Kabir's words mean that is is rare for an external guru to realize that it is the
> disciple that creates the inner manifestation of the guru, and to bow to the disciple
> as the creator of the form. Too often, the disciple bows mistakenly to the guru for
> what he created himself.
I know from my own experience. I have seen disciples bowing to the Radiant
Form of My Master in the inner planes. They did not "create," the bowing
people. They created a manifestation of the grace of the Master. They
invoked his grace. They invoked the grace to be able to see that vision.
The disciple is really a beggar, despite all of Faqir's self-effacing
remarks.
>
> > Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj throws up a smokescreen, and then we have to analyze
> > just what he is saying to us. His statements are designed for the
> > discerning, true seekers. His statements which seem to oppose Gurudom, are
> > most likely, designed to filter out the insincere seekers. It is sort of a
> > test, to separate the wheat from the chaff. Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj was the
> > Lord in human form. He was inscrutable. Those who bowed at his HOLY FEET
> > did the right thing, and what they did, invoked the grace of the Lord.
>
> SMOKESCREEN! Ridculous. Chand is one of the most transparent writers on RS.
No, he is OPAQUE. He told me that!
> The only
> smoke here is being blown by you, Michael. Chand was a MAN. His motto was BE MAN!
He said he came from Anami Dham. He was right. He was a Guruavatar. Be Man
means to know all of Man's potential, which is to be God. Faqir Ji advised
us to seek a Realized Man and obey him. PURE SANT MAT.
>
> > > There is no difference between you and a Guru. But you
> > > are ignorant and you are very much governed by your mind. You run
> > > after the gurus and sadhus for the fulfillment of your worldly
> > > desires. You make humble entreaties to the gurus. When these gurus
> > > themselves have disobedient and characterless children, and when they
> > > themselves do not have good relations with their wives, how do you
> > > think that they would do any good to you? Therefore, I again
> > > emphasize my point, "O man! your good lies in your own deeds." A True
> > > Guru simply reveals to you the secret or the Truth.
> >
> > Again, Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj has thrown up a smokescreen to filter out the
> > insincere seekers. The BOTTOM LINE is just as he wrote above, however. We
> > need to have the truth revealed by a True Guru. Notice, he said True Guru,
> > and not any Guru. We have to use our judgement and discretion, when
> > selecting a Guru.
>
> Again, you refuse to accept what Chand has transparently written. The True Guru,
> according to Chand, is one that shows you that you have created the inner
> manifestations through your own faith and devotion without any outside assistance from
> a guru.
It was "Inner Grace," which manifested inside of the disciple, as I just
discussed above. The disciple, who has faith can invoke that grace, that is
true.
>
> > > The Truth is that
> > > this world is a field of the deeds. Whatever deeds you or I have
> > > done, we must face their results. No power on earth can protect us.
> > > This is the Truth."
> >
> > Yes, this is a Sant Mat teaching, that we have to reap whatever crop we have
> > sown. He mentions "power on earth," but he doesn't say that the "power in
> > heaven," i.e. the Shabd, Nam, or Holy spirit, can't protect us. Once again,
> > Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is making self-effacing statements. Thay don't affect
> > the sincere seekers at all, because the know the REAL FORM of Faqir Chand Ji
> > Maharaj is the SHABD, NAM, OR HOLY SPIRIT. This type of statement will
> > filter out the insincere seekers. Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj has intentionally
> > given his teachings in an opaque way. He was very selective in choosing his
> > disciples.
>
> The REAL FORM that you continually cite was said to be an illusion created by the mind
> of the disciple according to Chand.
Yes, but Faqir Ji was interested in taking the disciples beyond that to the
Absolute Reality.
> There is nothing opague about Chand's teachings.
> They are crystal clear in their meaning, and it is self evident that you do not
> understand Chand's words.
Sometimes, there are two ways to say the same thing. Faqir Ji has
masterfully used another, less popular, way to give the Sant Mat teachings.
He has not refuted them at all. He still recommends that we find a Living
Master and obey him. It is still Pure Sant Mat.
>
> > > Faqir Chand
> > > http://www.inlink.com/~rife/faqir5.txt
> >
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
> >
> > > "G. Michael Turner" wrote:
<snip>
> > > "I stopped lying around the time that the truth became unbelievable."
> > >
> > > Alana Keres,
> > > Experimental Ontologist
>
jody
[snip]
> PS - oh, and by the way. Sant Mat totally kicks ass. Nothing else even
> remotely touches it. Hanging ten home to God on the Sound Current - what
> could possibly be better, or more fun? :-) gmt
I was with you all the way GMT, until you got a wee bit carried
away. While I can agree that Sant Mat totally kicks ass for you,
there are quite a few traditions that kick ass every bit as much.
I understand the enthusiasm, but the statement is untenable.
love--jody.
R. Floyd Pickett
sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <38F205E9...@naxs.com>,
> "R. Floyd Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > Well, the question was addressed to G. Michael Turner, but since you've jumped in here, you are right Michael Martin, even you can serve as a guru according to Faqir Chand.
>
> Yes, those who have the authority of Anami Purush can serve as a Guru.
Faqir didn't stipulate that requirement. He said anybody, even Jeffrey Dahmer.
> >
> > "Patanjali, the great sage, has written in his book on Yoga that if you cannot do any
> > inward practice then at least contemplate on the holy form of a Perfect Man. Now the
> > question is, where would you search for a Perfect Man? I say that wherever or in
> > whomsoever you have faith think that He is a Perfect Man and Omnipotent [and] your
> > purpose shall be served.
>
> This statement is really nothing new.
>
> > If my form manifests itself and helps those who have faith in
> > me, then the form of other gurus also manifest themselves to their disciples and helps them.
>
> "Help" is a very vague word, here. It could be an lot of things. It could
> be just increased concentration of mind. It is well-known that a
> concentrated mind is more helpful than a scattered mind.
No, Micheal, Faqir gave examples like physical healing, accident aversion, etc. He was
very clear about the "help" being physical miracles.
> > Leave aside the Saints, you put a wicked and immoral person on the seat of a
> > Guru [even Michael Martin or G. Michael Turner], develop faith in him, his form too
> > shall manifest and help you like the manifested form of the great Saints.
>
> There is a catch to this. If we put a "wicked" person, for example, Jeffrey
> Dahmer, on the seat of the Guru, who would have faith in him? Perhaps,
> nobody!
How about Adolf Hitler. Look at how many had faith in him.
> For the sincere seekers, it is easy to have faith in the True Master, however.
Look at how many sincere Nazis cheerfully followed Hitler's orders.
> > You are not
> > helped by any Saint or Guru, but by your own faith and belief."
>
> I have already discussed the possible ramifications of "help." Any
> concentration is better than no concentration. He does not say that this
> help will take us to the Father. The word "help" is opaque and vague, here.
There is nothing opaque about the concrete examples that Chand gave in his writing. you
are the only one trying to cloud his meaning.
> >
> > Faqir Chand, "The Unknowing Sage"
> > http://www.inlink.com/~rife/faqir6.txt
> >
> > sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <38F0C2D4...@naxs.com>,
> > > "R. Floyd Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Faqir Chand Ji:
> > > > "Sant Tara Chand told me that I had helped him in reaping his
> > > > crop of grams.
> > >
> > > This is possible, because Faqir Chand Ji was God in human form. Those who
> > > have great love and faith in the Sat Guru, will invoke the grace of the Lord.
> > > I have been trying to make this point for a long time, now.
> > >
> > > > Other people also narrate such instances, but I do not
> > > > go anywhere. [ in other words, Michael, NO, Faqir Chand did not help Sant Tara Chand. Faqir is a MAN, not GOD.]
>
> Richard, he didn't say that at all. Sant Tara chand got help from the Sat
> Guru, Faqir Chand Ji, from the Shabd Form of Faqir Ji, which of course is
> omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
Fiair said that he did not help Shri Tara Chand reap his crop. Faqir said that the
Shabd Form is the product of the devotee's mind.
> Faqir Chand Ji is still God.
> > >
> > > Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is telling the truth. His PHYSICAL FORM is not going
> > > anywhere. Sant Mat teachings are very explicit that the Master is not just
> > > an ordinary physical human being, his real form is the SHABD, NAM, OR HOLY
> > > SPIRIT.
> >
> > Faqir says that the HOLY FORM is created by the faith and devotion of the disciple. It
> > has no separate reality.
>
> If a beggar is holding out a beggar's bowl, and someone throws some money in
> it, you can say the money came as a result of the begging. You could also
> say that it was the result of someone's kindness. Faqir Chand Ji is saying,
> in a self-effacing way, that the disciple is creating everything. You can
> say it either way. Both ways are correct. It is always a combination of the
> disciple's effort and the Master's grace. Faqir Ji, out of humility, is
> giving the disciple all of the credit, and he is taking none of the credit.
> It is just an example of extreme humility.
Faqir Chand is not being self effacing. He claims to be telling the Truth, and
revealing the secret of Sant Mat which was kept intact behind the iron curtain of
gurudom. --- all the manifestations of Guru are not a Reality, but an illusion.
> >
> > > Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj is so extremely humble, that he is trying to deny that
> > > he is God in human form. He wants to preserve his humility at all costs.
> >
> > Chand is not posing under some false humility. He is being straightforward. He is a
> > MAN, not GOD.
>
> He said he came here from Anami Dham (Nameless Home), also. That means he
> was an incarnation of the Supreme Being.
No, Micheal, it means what he said it meant, "'O man, know thyself by thyself.' There
is no difference between you and a Guru."
> > >
> > > > I did not initiate them, but they believe that I am
> > > > their Guru.
> > >
> > > The important thing is, that there is love and faith in the Master, and the
> > > Master already loves everybody, including those who are not his followers.
> > > If the seeker has enough love and faith, even though he has not been formally
> > > initiated, then it will invoke the grace of the Lord, as I already mentioned
> > > above.
> >
> > Yes, according to Faqir, it is the faith, love and devotion of the disciple, not the
> > actions of a guru that create the HOLY FORM in the inner vision.
>
> Faith in what? It is Faith in the Sat Guru which invokes these instances of
> the Lord's grace. How could we have faith in somebody, whom we do not
> respect? How could we have respect in a Jeffrey Dahmer, for example?
How did all those people respect Hitler?
>
> >
> > > > Their belief in me has helped me to realize the Truth.
> > > > What Truth? The Truth is that all these manifestations of Guru, God,
> > > > Goddess, Rama or Krishna are not a Reality, but an illusion.
> > >
> > > Of course, the Absolute Reality is found at Anami Radha Soami Dham (Home of
> > > the Nameless Lord of the Soul). The Radiant Form of the Master at these
> > > lower planes is illusion, but it can still bestow miracles on us.
> >
> > The Radiant Form, according to Faqir, has no reality. It bestows nothing. It is an
> > illusion created by the mind of the devotee.
>
> Yes, that is right. But how is it created by the mind of the devotee? As I
> just wrote above, we must have faith in someone for whom we have respect. A
> sincere seeker will have faith in the Sat Guru.
>
> He didn't say the Radiant Form bestows nothing. He said his own Master led
> him to Realization. That is SOMETHING. He is just saying that the
> disciple's effort invokes the appearance of the Radiant Form of the Sat Guru.
> It is illusion, but with it's help, it will lead us out of the illusion to
> the absolute reality.
Faqir Chand found peace with the realizzation that the Radiant Form was of his own
mind's creation. He found peace in recognizing the real form of his own mind. That was
his escape from illusion to reality.
> >
> > > Perhaps, out of his grace and mercy, Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj was exhorting the
> > > faithful to go beyond his Radiant Form, beyond mind and matter, to the level
> > > of Absolute Reality.
>
> No comment?
He is exhorting people to recognize the real form of thier minds, to recognize that it
is they that create the radiant form and not the guru. So, yes, beyond the illusive
form created by the mind. Do it by recognizing the illusion, not by continued devotion
to the illusion.
> >
> > > > I am
> > > > convinced of this Truth. With this realization I have attained Peace.
> > > > The root cause of disquietude is mind. Once its real form is
> > > > recognized, you attain Peace. I have recognized the real form of my
> > > > mind.
> > >
> > > Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj had taken his mind to its REAL HOME, the SHABD, NAM,
> > > OR HOLY SPIRIT.
> >
> > Faqir found peace when he realized that the manifestations of Guru, God, Goddess, Rama,
> > or Krishna are not a Reality, but an illusion created by his own mind.
>
> Yes, that is what I said. He took mind to its True Home, the Shabd.
Ever read a story entitled Vishnu's Maya? Its a classic. The protagonist comes to the
realization that all the gods throughout the Hindu pantheon are his own creations. This
is what Chand is talking about. He is talking about breaking through self deception to
recognize the true form of the mind.
You're not making sense.
> > >
> > > Naturally, when a Saint bows to a disciple, it is very rare. However, the
> > > instances above, which he mentioned involved FOUR SAINTS, so then we can
> > > understand it.
> >
> > Kabir's words mean that is is rare for an external guru to realize that it is the
> > disciple that creates the inner manifestation of the guru, and to bow to the disciple
> > as the creator of the form. Too often, the disciple bows mistakenly to the guru for
> > what he created himself.
>
> I know from my own experience. I have seen disciples bowing to the Radiant
> Form of My Master in the inner planes. They did not "create," the bowing
> people. They created a manifestation of the grace of the Master. They
> invoked his grace. They invoked the grace to be able to see that vision.
> The disciple is really a beggar, despite all of Faqir's self-effacing
> remarks.
No, you created the whole scenario according to Faqir.
> >
> > > Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj throws up a smokescreen, and then we have to analyze
> > > just what he is saying to us. His statements are designed for the
> > > discerning, true seekers. His statements which seem to oppose Gurudom, are
> > > most likely, designed to filter out the insincere seekers. It is sort of a
> > > test, to separate the wheat from the chaff. Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj was the
> > > Lord in human form. He was inscrutable. Those who bowed at his HOLY FEET
> > > did the right thing, and what they did, invoked the grace of the Lord.
> >
> > SMOKESCREEN! Ridculous. Chand is one of the most transparent writers on RS.
>
> No, he is OPAQUE. He told me that!
Well, if you're going to slip off into revelatory proclaimations, this conversation is
at an end.
--
The opinions expressed here are those of the writer and not necessarily
those of ECKANKAR or the Living ECK Master, Sri Harold Klemp.
G. Michael Turner
name), what's up? I see you've maintained your customary literacy in coming
up with creative name variations. "Turdner," how original - kind of reminds
me of what kids in second grade used to say. You should really watch South
Park more - it will expand your insult vocabulary tremendously, you donkey
raping ass-reamer.
In case you really are totally clueless, I retired a few months back. I've
decided that there were people better suited for the job of initiating
Satguru than me. Now I'm enjoying a very nice retirement spending time with
my wife and family, and singing and playing bass in a great little blues
band here in Tucson. It's called "MK Ultra." You should check us out
sometime - we play at Nimbus every Wednesday night as the house band. But
I've gotta warn you - you need to check your ego at the door.
As far as Prof. Lane goes, last time I checked, we were buds. I've never
asked him for an overt endorsement or anything like that because I value his
integrity as an independent researcher of Sant Mat. I didn't realize he's
on tour. It would be great to see him if he hits Tucson. My wife and I
visited him a few years ago at his place near San Diego, and had a wonderful
time - he's a wonderful soul, and a real gentleman. We both love him a lot.
Well, Bullworth's on HBO so I'm going to sign off now. Along with South
Park, the movie, and Analyze This, it's one of my favorite recent films.
Warren Beatty is great as a senator who gets a clue about political games
and starts telling the truth about where the real power is and how people
can start reasserting their sovereignty and making this country once again
of the people, by the people and for the people. Plus, it's a real kick to
see him hanging in the hood and doing pretty decent rap.
TTFN,
G. Michael
;-)
PS - oh, and by the way. Sant Mat totally kicks ass. Nothing else even
remotely touches it. Hanging ten home to God on the Sound Current - what
could possibly be better, or more fun? :-) gmt
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa wrote in message
<20aeae1e...@usw-ex0105-040.remarq.com>...
>
>Hey Turdner! "The ex-Astigmatic-Hanta, the Living Egg Monster"
>Prof. Lane is not your friend. Everytime he speaks about you he
>ridicules you. "Another former Eckist named Gary Olsen started
>the MasterPath. He's touring the southwest, as we speak. Another
>man named 'Sri' Michael Turner, in Tucson, claims to be the 974th
>Living Master of the Midnight Sun. I keep discovering more and
>more offshoots, in India as well as here - it's like an ebolo
>virus, it keeps
>reproducing itself."
>
>And your "guru" Darwin Gross Misconduct? Ask Lane about his
>opinion.
>
>~Sant Mat is totally bogus.~
>
>* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network
*
>The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
>
gck...@my-deja.com
a master (which is not unusual since he does not endorse even his own
guru Charan Singh, let alone anyone else, as a genuine Godman), he
told me personally that he thinks GMT is a very nice person.
When GMT decided to "retire" Dr. Lane, though curious, was not
derogatory or critical.
And the passage you quoted. twice, was a generic criticism of the
proliferation of Sant Mat gurus which is a valid and substantive
criticism, which could also be applied to self-proclaimed "swamis"
and "sris" such as yourself.
Let me put this succinctly:
G. Michael Turner is a good person. A fine man and loving person with a
high degree of integrity, compassion, intelligence, creativity, humor,
and other qualities which grace a human being.
Your insults and suchlike are, in truth, unwarranted and unjustified,
on any basis and for any reason.
Yogananda, if he were alive, would have much to teach you.
By the way the above is not simply my opinion.
in this case my opinion, as you are fond of saying, is truth.
Regards,
Jay
PS Have some cheesy poofs!!!
sh...@my-deja.com
>
> > PS - oh, and by the way. Sant Mat totally kicks ass. Nothing else even
> > remotely touches it. Hanging ten home to God on the Sound Current - what
> > could possibly be better, or more fun? :-) gmt
>
> away. While I can agree that Sant Mat totally kicks ass for you,
> there are quite a few traditions that kick ass every bit as much.
>
> I understand the enthusiasm, but the statement is untenable.
His (GMT's) statement is 100% correct.
>
> love--jody.
sh...@my-deja.com
<snip>
> > Richard, he didn't say that at all. Sant Tara chand got help from the Sat
> > Guru, Faqir Chand Ji, from the Shabd Form of Faqir Ji, which of course is
> > omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
>
> Fiair said that he did not help Shri Tara Chand reap his crop. Faqir said that the
> Shabd Form is the product of the devotee's mind.
His physical form didn't help. The Shabd Form manifests, when we sufficient
love and devotion in the mind. That's right. Our love and devotion invokes
the grace of the Shabd Guru.
>
> > Faqir Chand Ji is still God.
<snip>
> > > Faqir says that the HOLY FORM is created by the faith and devotion of the disciple. It
> > > has no separate reality.
> >
> > If a beggar is holding out a beggar's bowl, and someone throws some money in
> > it, you can say the money came as a result of the begging. You could also
> > say that it was the result of someone's kindness. Faqir Chand Ji is saying,
> > in a self-effacing way, that the disciple is creating everything. You can
> > say it either way. Both ways are correct. It is always a combination of the
> > disciple's effort and the Master's grace. Faqir Ji, out of humility, is
> > giving the disciple all of the credit, and he is taking none of the credit.
> > It is just an example of extreme humility.
>
> Faqir Chand is not being self effacing. He claims to be telling the Truth, and
> revealing the secret of Sant Mat which was kept intact behind the iron curtain of
> gurudom. --- all the manifestations of Guru are not a Reality, but an illusion.
All of that was just a self-effacing maneuver by Faqir Ji. He was God. He
had many disciples who were witnesses to his grace. Faqir Ji never said we
could reach God without a Guru. He said his Guru led him to realization. He
recommended that we find one, also, and obey him. He is not Anti-Sant Mat.
He is Pro-Sant Mat. He was interested in the sincere seekers.
<snip>
> > > Chand is not posing under some false humility. He is being straightforward. He is a
> > > MAN, not GOD.
> >
> > He said he came here from Anami Dham (Nameless Home), also. That means he
> > was an incarnation of the Supreme Being.
>
> No, Micheal, it means what he said it meant, "'O man, know thyself by thyself.' There
> is no difference between you and a Guru."
It just means that we have to do our meditation. It means that we have the
potential to be God-Realized like the Sat Guru.
<snip>
> > > Yes, according to Faqir, it is the faith, love and devotion of the disciple, not the
> > > actions of a guru that create the HOLY FORM in the inner vision.
> >
> > Faith in what? It is Faith in the Sat Guru which invokes these instances of
> > the Lord's grace. How could we have faith in somebody, whom we do not
> > respect? How could we have respect in a Jeffrey Dahmer, for example?
>
> How did all those people respect Hitler?
We can be misled. Hitler was not a Guru. He was a dictator.
Even if we have faith in a False Guru, it could help us to concentrate our
mind. In that case, we would go as far as that Guru could take us, then the
Lord would arrange for that seeker to meet the True Master, the MOST SUPERIOR
MASTER.
<snip>
> > > The Radiant Form, according to Faqir, has no reality. It bestows nothing. It is an
> > > illusion created by the mind of the devotee.
> >
> > Yes, that is right. But how is it created by the mind of the devotee? As I
> > just wrote above, we must have faith in someone for whom we have respect. A
> > sincere seeker will have faith in the Sat Guru.
> >
> > He didn't say the Radiant Form bestows nothing. He said his own Master led
> > him to Realization. That is SOMETHING. He is just saying that the
> > disciple's effort invokes the appearance of the Radiant Form of the Sat Guru.
> > It is illusion, but with it's help, it will lead us out of the illusion to
> > the absolute reality.
>
> Faqir Chand found peace with the realizzation that the Radiant Form was of his own
> mind's creation. He found peace in recognizing the real form of his own mind. That was
> his escape from illusion to reality.
He found peace, when he went beyond the illusion. That is a Sant Mat
teaching. His mind merged into the Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit.
<snip>
> > No comment?
>
> He is exhorting people to recognize the real form of thier minds, to recognize that it
> is they that create the radiant form and not the guru. So, yes, beyond the illusive
> form created by the mind. Do it by recognizing the illusion, not by continued devotion
> to the illusion.
We have to follow that illusion, until we go beyond it. The disciple created
the form by his love and devotion. It invoked the Lord's grace. Even the
physical form of the Master is illusion, but we still have to follow him, if
we want enlightenment. We have to follow his form beyond mind and matter.
<snip>
> > > Faqir found peace when he realized that the manifestations of Guru, God, Goddess, Rama,
> > > or Krishna are not a Reality, but an illusion created by his own mind.
> >
> > Yes, that is what I said. He took mind to its True Home, the Shabd.
>
> Ever read a story entitled Vishnu's Maya? Its a classic. The protagonist comes to the
> realization that all the gods throughout the Hindu pantheon are his own creations. This
> is what Chand is talking about. He is talking about breaking through self deception to
> recognize the true form of the mind.
All right. Truth is that mind doesn't exist in the regions beyond mind and
matter. I have already commented on this.
<snip>
> > > Nowhere does Chand claim to be a Guruavatar. His message was, "O Man, know thyself by
> > > thyself."
> >
> > If he came from Anami Dham, then that is what he was! Yes, we can know God
> > by following a Sat Guru, and consequently, know ourselves.
>
> You're not making sense.
It makes sense to me. If we know God, then we will be omniscient, and we
will know ourselves, also. I meant that by following a Sat Guru, first we
will achieve self-realization, then we will achieve God-Realization.
<snip>
> > > Kabir's words mean that is is rare for an external guru to realize that it is the
> > > disciple that creates the inner manifestation of the guru, and to bow to the disciple
> > > as the creator of the form. Too often, the disciple bows mistakenly to the guru for
> > > what he created himself.
> >
> > I know from my own experience. I have seen disciples bowing to the Radiant
> > Form of My Master in the inner planes. They did not "create," the bowing
> > people. They created a manifestation of the grace of the Master. They
> > invoked his grace. They invoked the grace to be able to see that vision.
> > The disciple is really a beggar, despite all of Faqir's self-effacing
> > remarks.
>
> No, you created the whole scenario according to Faqir.
As I just wrote above, the disciple creates (invokes) the grace, and then he
can see the manifestation of Grace. The disciple's effort always works with
the grace of the Master. The disciple can't do anything just by himself.
His progress would be extremely limited without a Master to guide him through
the phantasmagoria.
<snip>
> > > SMOKESCREEN! Ridculous. Chand is one of the most transparent writers on RS.
> >
> > No, he is OPAQUE. He told me that!
>
> Well, if you're going to slip off into revelatory proclaimations, this conversation is
> at an end.
Whatever is God's will. I will comment on this, anyway.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
sh...@my-deja.com
"R. Floyd Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
>
>
> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <38F205E9...@naxs.com>,
> > "R. Floyd Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > > Well, the question was addressed to G. Michael Turner, but since you've jumped in here, you are right Michael Martin, even you can serve as a guru according to Faqir Chand.
> >
> > Yes, those who have the authority of Anami Purush can serve as a Guru.
>
> Faqir didn't stipulate that requirement. He said anybody, even Jeffrey Dahmer.
I was mentioning that truth, independent of Faqir Chand Ji.
Faqir Chand Ji never mentioned that a cannibal could take us to the Father.
We can only reach the level that our Guru has reached, that is why we need to
use discretion, when selecting a Master.
> > >
> > > "Patanjali, the great sage, has written in his book on Yoga that if you cannot do any
> > > inward practice then at least contemplate on the holy form of a Perfect Man. Now the
> > > question is, where would you search for a Perfect Man? I say that wherever or in
> > > whomsoever you have faith think that He is a Perfect Man and Omnipotent [and] your
> > > purpose shall be served.
This is really nothing new, at all. As I mentioned above, we can reach to
the same level as our Guru, but not beyond it.
> >
> > This statement is really nothing new.
> >
> > > If my form manifests itself and helps those who have faith in
> > > me, then the form of other gurus also manifest themselves to their disciples and helps them.
He mentions "help." He doesn't mention the degree of help. A Guru's help is
limited to the spiritual power, which he possesses.
> >
> > "Help" is a very vague word, here. It could be an lot of things. It could
> > be just increased concentration of mind. It is well-known that a
> > concentrated mind is more helpful than a scattered mind.
>
> No, Micheal, Faqir gave examples like physical healing, accident aversion, etc. He was
> very clear about the "help" being physical miracles.
Those incidents were with the Radiant Form of Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj. He is
not saying that Hitler, or Jeffrey Dahmer will do miracles for you. He is
saying that you might get some help, in the form of concentration of mind,
but a False Guru certainly will not be able to help as much as a True Guru.
>
> > > Leave aside the Saints, you put a wicked and immoral person on the seat of a
> > > Guru [even Michael Martin or G. Michael Turner], develop faith in him, his form too
> > > shall manifest and help you like the manifested form of the great Saints.
> >
> > There is a catch to this. If we put a "wicked" person, for example, Jeffrey
> > Dahmer, on the seat of the Guru, who would have faith in him? Perhaps,
> > nobody!
>
> How about Adolf Hitler. Look at how many had faith in him.
People did not have faith in him as a Spiritual Guru. They had faith in him
as a reformer, so the question of a manifestation of a Radiant Form, clearly,
does not apply, here.
>
> > For the sincere seekers, it is easy to have faith in the True Master, however.
>
> Look at how many sincere Nazis cheerfully followed Hitler's orders.
They were not trying to concentrate their mind. They might have had much
lower desires and ambitions. We can't equate this with spirituality.
> > > You are not
> > > helped by any Saint or Guru, but by your own faith and belief."
> >
> > I have already discussed the possible ramifications of "help." Any
> > concentration is better than no concentration. He does not say that this
> > help will take us to the Father. The word "help" is opaque and vague, here.
>
> There is nothing opaque about the concrete examples that Chand gave in his writing. you
> are the only one trying to cloud his meaning.
I'm telling it like it is. He was Pro-Sant Mat. He recommended that we find
a "Realized Man," and obey him. He said his own Guru, Shivbrat Lal lead him
to realization.
He is simply trying to give the disciple some credit. It is the disciple's
love and faith in the Master, that will invoke the Lord's grace. He is just
shifting some emphasis on the disciple, but he is really not changing
anything, at all.
> > >
> > > Faqir Chand, "The Unknowing Sage"
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
jodyr
> In article <38F3D911...@dnai.com>,
> jo...@dnai.com wrote:
> > "G. Michael Turner" wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > PS - oh, and by the way. Sant Mat totally kicks ass. Nothing else even
> > > remotely touches it. Hanging ten home to God on the Sound Current - what
> > > could possibly be better, or more fun? :-) gmt
> >
> > I was with you all the way GMT, until you got a wee bit carried
> > away. While I can agree that Sant Mat totally kicks ass for you,
> > there are quite a few traditions that kick ass every bit as much.
> >
> > I understand the enthusiasm, but the statement is untenable.
>
> His (GMT's) statement is 100% correct.
Michaelji, you are the reigning *KING* of the untenable statement.
Your endorsement has zero value in this case.
--jodyr.
[snip]
jody
[snip]
> > Michaelji, you are the reigning *KING* of the untenable statement.
> > Your endorsement has zero value in this case.
>
> I believe Sant Mat has about 4 million members. I don't know how many
> Advaita Vedanta has. We just have different opinions on this.
>
> Do you think your endorsements have value?
I don't offer any endorsements.
> I'm speaking from 35 years of
> experience with Sant Mat.
Rendered moot by your ridiculousness.
> Readers can take it or leave it.
They leave it.
> The world has
> rarely valued the Saints.
You are not a Saint.
> If it does, it is usually after the Saints have
> been tortured to death.
It's not gonna happen to you, so your "value" will not be realized
in either case.
> The crowd valued Barabbas more than Christ. Socrates, Sarmad, Mansur, Guru
> Arjan, Guru Tegh Bahadur, Christ, Peter, Paul, Shams-i-Tabriz, etc., etc,
> were all killed like animals by human beings. Did their endorsements have
> any value? Apparently not, they could not even save their own lives.
You have nothing to do with these guys.
--jodyr.
[snip]
sh...@my-deja.com
jodyr <jo...@dnai.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > In article <38F3D911...@dnai.com>,
> > jo...@dnai.com wrote:
> > > "G. Michael Turner" wrote:
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > > PS - oh, and by the way. Sant Mat totally kicks ass. Nothing else even
> > > > remotely touches it. Hanging ten home to God on the Sound Current - what
> > > > could possibly be better, or more fun? :-) gmt
> > >
> > > I was with you all the way GMT, until you got a wee bit carried
> > > away. While I can agree that Sant Mat totally kicks ass for you,
> > > there are quite a few traditions that kick ass every bit as much.
> > >
> > > I understand the enthusiasm, but the statement is untenable.
> >
> > His (GMT's) statement is 100% correct.
>
> Your endorsement has zero value in this case.
I believe Sant Mat has about 4 million members. I don't know how many
Advaita Vedanta has. We just have different opinions on this.
Do you think your endorsements have value? I'm speaking from 35 years of
experience with Sant Mat. Readers can take it or leave it. The world has
rarely valued the Saints. If it does, it is usually after the Saints have
been tortured to death.
The crowd valued Barabbas more than Christ. Socrates, Sarmad, Mansur, Guru
Arjan, Guru Tegh Bahadur, Christ, Peter, Paul, Shams-i-Tabriz, etc., etc,
were all killed like animals by human beings. Did their endorsements have
any value? Apparently not, they could not even save their own lives.
>
> --jodyr.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
>
> [snip]
gck...@my-deja.com
After this I will not trouble to resond to any of your ravings.
sh...@my-deja.com
Jay, let's let him present some evidence of the allegations, that he posts
about Sant Mat. He says Sant Mat is bogus, but then, he doesn't post any
evidence of it.
Sant Mat has been here since the Creation came into being. It is the epitome
of durability. It has had many critics. Those critics are like bubbles,
forming and disappearing on the surface of the ocean. Zillions of them have
come and gone. Paramahansaji is just another critic.
If Paramahansaji would like to compare paths, i.e. his path vis-a-vis Sant
Mat, then I will be glad to debate him on that. I'm not going to descend to
mudslinging, however. I don't mind comparing the theory of the two paths, at
all. Also, we could conceivably, look at the history of the lineages, and
compare them.
Any allegations, such as those Paramahansaji repeatedly posts about His
Holiness, Param Sant Param Dayal Soami Ji Maharaj, should have concrete
evidence.
Willing to step in the ring with Paramahansaji,
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
sh...@my-deja.com
Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa <filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid>
wrote:
> I'll play your game Sri Michaelji. Would you kindly trace
> "Soami ji" Shit Dayal's sampradaya for me?
I don't know the meaning of that word. I would appreciate it if you would
refrain from using openly offensive language, especially with regards to a
great and revered Saint. He started a wave of spirituality, which is still
reverberating worldwide.
Sant Mat has had critics like you for ages. Sant Mat is still here. I would
suggest you keep that in mind. The ignorant people of this world have even
killed some of the great exponents of Sant Mat, but it has survived. It is
like the immovable object. God's power will not be denied. Sat Gurus are
emodiments of the God.
Soami Ji Maharaj's mother was an initiate of Tulsi Sahib Maharaj, long before
Soami Ji was born. My Master has said, that he got light from Tulsi Sahib
Maharaj. I don't claim to be a historian. I don't know that much about
those days.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
>
>
Leo Smith
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa wrote:
> I want to help you. I love you as a fellow human being and am really
> concerned with you and your family's welfare.
> [....]
> What do you say?
I think Christianity is so fucking wonderful, don't you?
G. Michael Turner
If you could pull your kundalini-addled head out of your ass for five
minutes, maybe you'd quit being such a pig fucker and realize your path
isn't the only one. Of course, being deeply deluded by Brahmanda, it's no
wonder you're such a dickless asshole.
Have a nice day.
gmt
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa wrote in message
<1ed11c41...@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com>...
>In article
><F3QI4.3204$fV.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "G.
>Michael Turner" <m.tu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>Ahhh, Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa (how's that for a long,
>pretentious
>>name), what's up? I see you've maintained your customary
>literacy in coming
>>up with creative name variations. "Turdner," how original -
>kind of reminds
>>me of what kids in second grade used to say.
>
>So the "Living Egg Monster" was being ridiculed since second
>grade.... tsk tsk tsk, poor Turdner.
>
>You should really watch South
>>Park more - it will expand your insult vocabulary tremendously,
>you donkey
>>raping ass-reamer.
>
>{{{{HA HA HA HA HA HA HA}}}}
>
>>
>>In case you really are totally clueless, I retired a few months
>back. I've
>>decided that there were people better suited for the job of
>initiating
>>Satguru than me.
>
>That's why I said "ex" nincompoop! Have your astigmatism checked.
>And by the way you didn't "retire" you were never a Sat-Guru.
>
>Now I'm enjoying a very nice retirement
>spending time with
>>my wife and family, and singing and playing bass in a great
>little blues
>>band here in Tucson. It's called "MK Ultra." You should check
>us out
>
>Okay, I believe you're a good musician much like your "guru"
>Gross Misconduct.
>
>>As far as Prof. Lane goes, last time I checked, we were buds.
>I've never
>>asked him for an overt endorsement or anything like that because
>I value his
>>integrity as an independent researcher of Sant Mat.
>
>Oh really? Let me quote Prof. Lane: "Another former Eckist named
>Gary Olsen started the Master Path. He's touring the southwest,
>as we speak. Another man named 'Sri' Michael Turner, in Tucson,
>claims to be the 974th Living Master of the Midnight Sun. I keep
>discovering more and more offshoots, in India as well as
>here - it's like an ebolo virus, it keeps reproducing itself."
>
Bruce Morgen
Ahh, retirement doth have its
privileges, don't it? :-)
Much love -- Bruce
__________________________________________________
http://come.to/realization
http://www.atman.net/realization
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
sh...@my-deja.com
Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa <filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid>
wrote:
<snipped a lot of mudslinging>
As I mentioned in another article, I'm not going to descend to mudslinging.
I was willing to compare your path to Sant Mat, but it seems you're not
interested in doing that.
Mudslinging is often a sign of desperation, Paramahansaji. Sometimes people
resort to mudslinging as a last resort, when they think they can't win
legitimately. Sometimes jealousy evolves into mudslinging, also.
Ralph Waldo Emerson, said in so many words, that when people criticized him,
then he knew he was doing something right.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
Bruce Morgen
>In article <021a789e...@usw-ex0108-063.remarq.com>, Sri
>Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa <filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid>
>wrote:
>
><snipped a lot of mudslinging>
>
>As I mentioned in another article, I'm not going to descend to mudslinging.
Although he can be and has
often been a very harsh
poster, this latest from
him is really quite
compassionate in content
and tone, especially given
his stated antipathy toward
Sant Mat in general. The
fact that he agrees with me
concerning you general
state of mental health is
beside the point -- his
wording in this thread has
been careful and
considerate.
>
>I was willing to compare your path to Sant Mat, but it seems you're not
>interested in doing that.
It's a silly endeavor and
I wouldn't blame him if he
continues to demur,
>
>Mudslinging is often a sign of desperation, Paramahansaji.
Ah, but there is no sign of
it here, Michaelji.
Methinks you see mudslinging
because you, like the Kal-
generated imposter voice you
call "The Lord," have taken
offense. Being reminded of
your mental illness is
painful because some part of
you can still manage the
perceptual clarity to doubt
the lavish delusion that
rules your life and realize
that there is indeed such an
illness involved!
>Sometimes people
>resort to mudslinging as a last resort, when they think they can't win
>legitimately. Sometimes jealousy evolves into mudslinging, also.
Not only moot, but
desperate guesswork, all of
it. Why would this fellow
be jealous of a middle-aged
guru wannabe with a single-
digit number of chelas?
>
>Ralph Waldo Emerson, said in so many words, that when people criticized him,
>then he knew he was doing something right.
>
Please, don't kid yourself
on the basis of a dead man's
clever aphorism.
sh...@my-deja.com
edi...@juno.com wrote:
> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >In article <021a789e...@usw-ex0108-063.remarq.com>, Sri
> >Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa <filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid>
> >wrote:
> >
> ><snipped a lot of mudslinging>
> >
> >As I mentioned in another article, I'm not going to descend to mudslinging.
>
> Although he can be and has
> often been a very harsh
> poster, this latest from
> him is really quite
> compassionate in content
> and tone, especially given
> his stated antipathy toward
> Sant Mat in general.
I admit, it could have been worse.
> The
> fact that he agrees with me
> concerning you general
> state of mental health is
> beside the point -- his
> wording in this thread has
> been careful and
> considerate.
No, the fact that he agrees with you is the point.
> >
> >I was willing to compare your path to Sant Mat, but it seems you're not
> >interested in doing that.
>
> It's a silly endeavor and
> I wouldn't blame him if he
> continues to demur,
> >
Well, that's not surprising, coming from you.
He challenged Sant Mat. I met his challenge. Why is it silly for me, but it
is not silly for him to claim that Sant Mat is bogus? You are one amazing
fellow, Bruce. If you think Sant Mat is bogus, as he does, then admit it
like a man.
I'm not going to let you straddle the fence, Bruce.
> >Mudslinging is often a sign of desperation, Paramahansaji.
>
> Ah, but there is no sign of
> it here, Michaelji.
That is your opinion.
> Methinks you see mudslinging
> because you, like the Kal-
> generated imposter voice you
> call "The Lord," have taken
> offense.
Mudslinging is mudslinging. I am not throwing mud at him. Why do you think
I have taken offense?
> Being reminded of
> your mental illness is
> painful because some part of
> you can still manage the
> perceptual clarity to doubt
> the lavish delusion that
> rules your life and realize
> that there is indeed such an
> illness involved!
If somebody knows about Sant Mat Masters, but has still not gotten initiated
by the Master, then I consider that person to be suffering from mental
illness. Is that clear, Bruce?
If somebody thinks a Sat Guru is pained by mudslinging, then I consider that
person to be suffering from a mental illness. Is that clear, Bruce?
>
> >Sometimes people
> >resort to mudslinging as a last resort, when they think they can't win
> >legitimately. Sometimes jealousy evolves into mudslinging, also.
>
> Not only moot, but
> desperate guesswork, all of
> it.
What I wrote above is a fact. Since I was, once again, a victim of
mudslinging, then the mudslinging issue is very pertinent, not moot, as you
claim.
> Why would this fellow
> be jealous of a middle-aged
> guru wannabe with a single-
> digit number of chelas?
People have been jealous of Sat Gurus since time immemorial. Walt Whitman
mentioned it in his poem, "To him that was crucified." Jealousy has often
caused Kings, or Emperors, to kill the Saints.
> >
> >Ralph Waldo Emerson, said in so many words, that when people criticized him,
> >then he knew he was doing something right.
> >
> Please, don't kid yourself
> on the basis of a dead man's
> clever aphorism.
>
The truth is, that since the whole world is dancing to the tune of Satan, his
statement was right. He was not dancing to the tune of Satan. He was
dancing to the tune of the Almighty, as all Sat Gurus do.
Saint Paul said, "The God of this world (Satan or Kal) has blinded the
unbelievers."
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
> __________________________________________________
> http://come.to/realization
> http://www.atman.net/realization
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa
<14KJ4.4284$WF.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "G.
Michael Turner" <m.tu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>BAP you ignorant slut.
>
>If you could pull your kundalini-addled head out of your ass for
five
>minutes, maybe you'd quit being such a pig fucker and realize
your path
>isn't the only one. Of course, being deeply deluded by
Brahmanda, it's no
>wonder you're such a dickless asshole.
>
>Have a nice day.
>
>gmt
Ladies and Gentlemen, I am happy to present to you at this time
"THE REAL Gregory Michael TURDNER!!!"
gck...@my-deja.com
Bruce Morgen
>In article <0kmffs48e249832er...@4ax.com>,
> edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >In article <021a789e...@usw-ex0108-063.remarq.com>, Sri
>> >Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa <filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> ><snipped a lot of mudslinging>
>> >
>> >As I mentioned in another article, I'm not going to descend to mudslinging.
>>
>> Although he can be and has
>> often been a very harsh
>> poster, this latest from
>> him is really quite
>> compassionate in content
>> and tone, especially given
>> his stated antipathy toward
>> Sant Mat in general.
>
>I admit, it could have been worse.
Admission noted.
>
>> The
>> fact that he agrees with me
>> concerning you general
>> state of mental health is
>> beside the point -- his
>> wording in this thread has
>> been careful and
>> considerate.
>
>No, the fact that he agrees with you is the point.
We'll have to disagree on
that.
>> >
>> >I was willing to compare your path to Sant Mat, but it seems you're not
>> >interested in doing that.
>>
>> It's a silly endeavor and
>> I wouldn't blame him if he
>> continues to demur,
>> >
>Well, that's not surprising, coming from you.
>
>He challenged Sant Mat. I met his challenge. Why is it silly for me, but it
>is not silly for him to claim that Sant Mat is bogus? You are one amazing
>fellow, Bruce. If you think Sant Mat is bogus, as he does, then admit it
>like a man.
I don't see Sant Mat in
general is bogus, I think
what you purvey and call
"Sant Mat" is bogus.
>
>I'm not going to let you straddle the fence, Bruce.
Like you could stop
anyone from doing anything?
>
>> >Mudslinging is often a sign of desperation, Paramahansaji.
>>
>> Ah, but there is no sign of
>> it here, Michaelji.
>
>That is your opinion.
It is an clear fact. This
fellow does sling mud --
calling Sri GMji "Turdner"
certainly qualifies -- but
the thrust of his post to
you was compassionate.
>
>> Methinks you see mudslinging
>> because you, like the Kal-
>> generated imposter voice you
>> call "The Lord," have taken
>> offense.
>
>Mudslinging is mudslinging. I am not throwing mud at him. Why do you think
>I have taken offense?
ROTFLMAO!
>
>> Being reminded of
>> your mental illness is
>> painful because some part of
>> you can still manage the
>> perceptual clarity to doubt
>> the lavish delusion that
>> rules your life and realize
>> that there is indeed such an
>> illness involved!
>
>If somebody knows about Sant Mat Masters, but has still not gotten initiated
>by the Master, then I consider that person to be suffering from mental
>illness. Is that clear, Bruce?
Yes, thank you, absurd
opinion noted.
>
>If somebody thinks a Sat Guru is pained by mudslinging, then I consider that
>person to be suffering from a mental illness. Is that clear, Bruce?
>
Abolutely. However,
considering that their
is no "Sat Guru"
involved here, it is
utterly and completely
moot.
>>
>> >Sometimes people
>> >resort to mudslinging as a last resort, when they think they can't win
>> >legitimately. Sometimes jealousy evolves into mudslinging, also.
>>
>> Not only moot, but
>> desperate guesswork, all of
>> it.
>
>What I wrote above is a fact. Since I was, once again, a victim of
>mudslinging, then the mudslinging issue is very pertinent, not moot, as you
>claim.
Take it to the butcher's
shop, Michaelji, that's
where people actually buy
baloney. Somebody has
been considerate enough
to point out a
debilitating medical
condition, all that
remains is for you to
seek out competent
professional diagnosis
and treatment -- that is
what a mature adult does
when confronted with the
possibility of serious
dis-ease.
>
>> Why would this fellow
>> be jealous of a middle-aged
>> guru wannabe with a single-
>> digit number of chelas?
>
>People have been jealous of Sat Gurus since time immemorial.
So what? There is no
"Sat Guru" here to
provoke such jealousy.
>Walt Whitman
>mentioned it in his poem, "To him that was crucified." Jealousy has often
>caused Kings, or Emperors, to kill the Saints.
>
There are no "Kings" or
"Emperors" here either.
>> >
>> >Ralph Waldo Emerson, said in so many words, that when people criticized him,
>> >then he knew he was doing something right.
>> >
>> Please, don't kid yourself
>> on the basis of a dead man's
>> clever aphorism.
>>
>
>The truth is, that since the whole world is dancing to the tune of Satan, his
>statement was right. He was not dancing to the tune of Satan. He was
>dancing to the tune of the Almighty, as all Sat Gurus do.
That may well be true, but
the aphorism is still not
applicable.
>
>Saint Paul said, "The God of this world (Satan or Kal) has blinded the
>unbelievers."
>
You can't hide behind that
one either.
Bruce Morgen
>In article
><14KJ4.4284$WF.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "G.
>Michael Turner" <m.tu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>BAP you ignorant slut.
>>
>>If you could pull your kundalini-addled head out of your ass for
>five
>>minutes, maybe you'd quit being such a pig fucker and realize
>your path
>>isn't the only one. Of course, being deeply deluded by
>Brahmanda, it's no
>>wonder you're such a dickless asshole.
>>
>>Have a nice day.
>>
>>gmt
>
>Ladies and Gentlemen, I am happy to present to you at this time
>"THE REAL Gregory Michael TURDNER!!!"
>
Translation: "Shit, he kicked
my ass without even trying!"
C'mon, BAPster, the guy is
out of the guru business and
you can't let go of your
silly, sectarian animosity.
*Every* tradition has its
fine exemplars, its outright
charlatans, and its utterly
deluded wannabes. Turner
was definitely one of the
good ones coming out of
Sant Mat and/or Eckankar
and doesn't deserve your
disdain.
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa
Morgue <edi...@juno.com> wrote:
>Translation: "Shit, he kicked
>my ass without even trying!"
>
>C'mon, BAPster, the guy is
>out of the guru business and
>you can't let go of your
>silly, sectarian animosity.
>*Every* tradition has its
>fine exemplars, its outright
>charlatans, and its utterly
>deluded wannabes. Turner
>was definitely one of the
>good ones coming out of
>Sant Mat and/or Eckankar
>and doesn't deserve your
>disdain.
Translation: "Attention! I want attention!"
Bruce Morgue, I am not sectarian, and though Turdner attempted to
kick ass nth number of times he simply couldn't. He's a born
loser and isn't capable of rising above it. You wrote: "*Every*
tradition has its fine exemplars, its outright charlatans, and
its utterly deluded wannabes." Wrong. Every VALID spiritual
tradition *had* bona fide leaders and teachers as well as
charlatans. Neither Sant Mat nor Eckankar (an obvious improvement
of Sant Mat) is valid i.e. both are bogus. Shit Dayal ordained
himself a Swami, pretended to be a Sikh Guru and smoked weed. A
true Swami must have an authentic sampradaya backing him up, this
is an unbroken disciplic line from Adi Shankaracharya to his
initiator. One cannot be a Swami and a Sikh at the same time, any
"preschooler" aspirant knows this. Granting for the sake of
argument that it was tobacco that he was puffing from the hooka,
smoking per se is against the Khalsa. The Sant Mat techniques are
bogus. Rubbing the eyes exerts pressure on the lens and excites
the optic nerve producing kaleidoscope-like images devoid of any
true spiritual significance. Khechari mudra focuses one's
attention on the tongue (a single thought) and makes the mind
passive i.e. self-hypnosis variation. Putting one's thumbs on the
tragus exerts pressure on the tympanic membrane thereby producing
sounds similar to the buzzing of bees. Paul Twitchell, founder of
Eckankar was a veritable plagiarizer and the laughingstock of
orthodox spiritual systems. He made all eclecticists look bad.
Regarding Turdner....well, he's just a turd. And you? Nevermind.
gck...@my-deja.com
Your ignorance is showing. We neither press the eyes or swallow the
tongue.Though Prem Pal (Guru Maharaj Ji), and other offshoots have
incorperated this.
Soami Shiv Dayal was not, nor pretended to be, a swami descended from
Shankara.
There are, however, thousands of such genuine swamis living in pretense
and ochre robes, teaching in such elitist and obscure manner that they
will never touch a heart or give sweet peace to a human life.
And there is ample, or at least some evidence that the line descended
unbroken from Kabir/Nanak.
Quit acting like such a punk. It's obvious you know a few things and
have done some research, but you are far from what you present yourself
to be, a know it all about spirituality.
Whether this is a part of your "act", or your real feelings, you are
pissing in the wind, and getting all over yourself.
Especially with your last blunder of innacuracy.
Bruce has a point, your bs about Michael Turner is just that.
How bout we have lunch, and I kick your butt afterwords for insulting
my master and my friends?
You buy.
Bruce Morgen
>In article <gabhfschho1fnuhp5...@4ax.com>, Bruce
>Morgue <edi...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>>Translation: "Shit, he kicked
>>my ass without even trying!"
>>
>>C'mon, BAPster, the guy is
>>out of the guru business and
>>you can't let go of your
>>silly, sectarian animosity.
>>*Every* tradition has its
>>fine exemplars, its outright
>>charlatans, and its utterly
>>deluded wannabes. Turner
>>was definitely one of the
>>good ones coming out of
>>Sant Mat and/or Eckankar
>>and doesn't deserve your
>>disdain.
>
>Translation: "Attention! I want attention!"
Like that's not what you're
here for, sonny. When the
mirror's up, it *really*
something! :-)
>
>Bruce Morgue, I am not sectarian, and though Turdner attempted to
>kick ass nth number of times he simply couldn't.
He kicked a 60 yard field
goal this time, you're just
in denial because your
pretty boy ego can't handle
it.
>He's a born
>loser and isn't capable of rising above it. You wrote: "*Every*
>tradition has its fine exemplars, its outright charlatans, and
>its utterly deluded wannabes." Wrong. Every VALID spiritual
>tradition *had* bona fide leaders and teachers as well as
>charlatans. Neither Sant Mat nor Eckankar (an obvious improvement
>of Sant Mat) is valid i.e. both are bogus. Shit Dayal ordained
>himself a Swami, pretended to be a Sikh Guru and smoked weed.
Hardly disqualifiers other
than among puritanical
quasi-Saduccees like
yourself. *No* so-called
lineage is "valid" per se.
>A
>true Swami must have an authentic sampradaya backing him up, this
>is an unbroken disciplic line from Adi Shankaracharya to his
>initiator.
What a load of traditionalist
horse manure.
>One cannot be a Swami and a Sikh at the same time, any
>"preschooler" aspirant knows this. Granting for the sake of
>argument that it was tobacco that he was puffing from the hooka,
>smoking per se is against the Khalsa.
For an authentic realizer
the rote strictures of
religion -- *any* religion
-- are utterly irrelevant.
I'm not going to bat for
the fellow you're attacking,
I'll leave that for those
with Sant Mat allegiances.
>The Sant Mat techniques are
>bogus. Rubbing the eyes exerts pressure on the lens and excites
>the optic nerve producing kaleidoscope-like images devoid of any
>true spiritual significance. Khechari mudra focuses one's
>attention on the tongue (a single thought) and makes the mind
>passive i.e. self-hypnosis variation. Putting one's thumbs on the
>tragus exerts pressure on the tympanic membrane thereby producing
>sounds similar to the buzzing of bees.
The authenticity of any
particular realizer,
whether lineage-affilated
or not, has nothing
whatsoever to do with the
shortcomings of techniques.
*No* extant technique, no
matter how ancient or
refined, has an actual
causal relationship with
realization.
>Paul Twitchell, founder of
>Eckankar was a veritable plagiarizer and the laughingstock of
>orthodox spiritual systems.
Although I have neither
interest in nor a basis
for defending Twitchell,
you are plainly mistaking
me for someone who gives a
fly fahootch about
"orthodox spiritual systems."
Such "systems" are the
typical refuge of those
whose discourse and presence
cannot stand on their own.
>He made all eclecticists look bad.
I couldn't care less.
Twitchell is dead and I
didn't know him. Turner
is alive, a friend, and the
real deal. Your vendetta
against Sant Mat and/or
Eckankar has blinded you to
that one and only relevant
fact.
>
>Regarding Turdner....well, he's just a turd. And you? Nevermind.
>
Your swagger may impress
the undergrads, but you're
way out of your league
with me or Turner -- and,
unlike Martin, you don't
have a delusional psyche
as a convenient excuse for
not noticing that you're
drowning in you own
rhetorical diarrhea.
Brian Zischkau
Very perceptive. Usenet is indeed a fantasy theater. This ain't no ashram.
thanks,
Brian Zischkau
p.s. I like your other character too.
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa <filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>I gave you your chance just for the sake of being fair, and you
>failed. You are no more than a big joke Mr. Michael Martin. I'm
>sorry to say that but it's the truth. My heart goes out to you
>and your family, that they are forced to spend their moments with
>such a sick sick husband and father. You have certain
>psychophysiologic problems, I'm serious. I humbly advise you to
>seek professional help. Do not delay your diagnosis and cure.
>
>Dear Sir, of all the people participating in this newsgroup you
>display the worst behavior. Not because of rudeness or
>braggadocio, in truth you are showing signs of kindness and
>humility, but because to you this is all serious stuff -- you
>really believe you are superman -- and that is alarming. For
>example, I'm sure when you get to meet the real Bruce or Jay or
>Brahman-Atmanandaswami you'll be surprised, this is all a big
>façade. Behind the pc and the Usenet persona we are all real
>people. The seemingly hot-headed, pain in the ass, virtually
>invincible Brahman-Atmananda for example is just a young grihasta
>swami teaching Philosophy and Psychology at a local University
>and heads a very small meditation group who meets twice a week in
>a Government-owned facility. Jay could say to me "you're an
>offensive fool, etc." and could I respond with something similar,
>but when we get a chance to meet each other in person I tell you
>I will be excited and I'll probably treat him to lunch or
>something, then perhaps a real decent and intelligent discussion
>can take place. Usenet is a theatrical medium -- people logged-in
>here to loosen-up, entertain themselves, perhaps learn a thing or
>two though I believe the real purpose is really to unstress -- I
>say it's theatrical because you have countless potential audience
>so you (or rather the character you play) cannot loose. It's back
>to being boys and girls, high status boys low status boys, high
>status girls low status girls.... it's a virtual world. But in
>your case you really buy your own shit, you are drowning in your
>own feces.
>
>People here delight in ridiculing you. Telling you that there are
>voices in your head, that you are hallucinating, everything is
>delusion (perhaps because of what you ate last night, or the
>amount of prohibited drugs you stuffed in your system during your
>younger years), that you are just depressed because you don't
>have a job, etc. The truth is they view you as their clown their
>entertainer and they don't really want you to get your head
>fixed. Truly reflective of the real world. They want to be
>entertained perpetually by this standup who views himself as a
>Christ, a superman and is trying -- through his unbelievably
>stupid ways (a trademark of Michaelji) -- to convince and even
>recruit people. I do not want to be entertained by you. I want to
>help you. I love you as a fellow human being and am really
>concerned with you and your family's welfare. I will not tell you
>that you are not a guru, it's useless. But can you just at least
>go to a qualified psychiatrist or a psychotherapist share your
>insights and views and the specific means by which you wish to
>help humanity? Maybe you can even convince him/her and prove me
>wrong. What do you say?
Brian Zischkau
Bruce Morgen <edi...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>Ahh, retirement doth have its
>privileges, don't it? :-)
>
>Much love -- Bruce
>
>
>"G. Michael Turner" <m.tu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>BAP you ignorant slut.
>>
>>If you could pull your kundalini-addled head out of your ass for five
>>minutes, maybe you'd quit being such a pig fucker and realize your path
>>isn't the only one. Of course, being deeply deluded by Brahmanda, it's no
>>wonder you're such a dickless asshole.
>>
>>Have a nice day.
>>
>>gmt
>>
>>Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa wrote in message
>><1ed11c41...@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com>...
>>>In article
>>><F3QI4.3204$fV.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "G.
>>>* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network
>>*
>>>The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
>>>
>>
>
sh...@my-deja.com
edi...@juno.com wrote:
> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >In article <0kmffs48e249832er...@4ax.com>,
> > edi...@juno.com wrote:
> >> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
<snip>
> >> It's a silly endeavor and
> >> I wouldn't blame him if he
> >> continues to demur,
> >Well, that's not surprising, coming from you.
> >
> >He challenged Sant Mat. I met his challenge. Why is it silly for me, but it
> >is not silly for him to claim that Sant Mat is bogus? You are one amazing
> >fellow, Bruce. If you think Sant Mat is bogus, as he does, then admit it
> >like a man.
>
> I don't see Sant Mat in
> general is bogus, I think
> what you purvey and call
> "Sant Mat" is bogus.
What is bogus, is that you have never been in Sant Mat, and then, with your
unmitigated gall, you think you know more about Sant Mat, than me, and I have
35 years experience with it. Your participation in any discussion on Sant
Mat, should be one of learning and humility, not the antithesis.
> >
> >I'm not going to let you straddle the fence, Bruce.
>
> Like you could stop
> anyone from doing anything?
Well, I can point out what you're doing. Then you will have to explain
yourself, or look like a coward.
<snip>
> >> Ah, but there is no sign of
> >> it here, Michaelji.
> >
> >That is your opinion.
>
> It is an clear fact. This
> fellow does sling mud --
> calling Sri GMji "Turdner"
> certainly qualifies -- but
> the thrust of his post to
> you was compassionate.
It was mudslinging. Mudslinging is still mudslinging, whether it is done
compassionately or not.
> >
> >> Methinks you see mudslinging
> >> because you, like the Kal-
> >> generated imposter voice you
> >> call "The Lord," have taken
> >> offense.
> >
> >Mudslinging is mudslinging. I am not throwing mud at him. Why do you think
> >I have taken offense?
>
> ROTFLMAO!
That's no excuse for not replying.
> >> Being reminded of
> >> your mental illness is
> >> painful because some part of
> >> you can still manage the
> >> perceptual clarity to doubt
> >> the lavish delusion that
> >> rules your life and realize
> >> that there is indeed such an
> >> illness involved!
> >
> >If somebody knows about Sant Mat Masters, but has still not gotten initiated
> >by the Master, then I consider that person to be suffering from mental
> >illness. Is that clear, Bruce?
>
> Yes, thank you, absurd
> opinion noted.
Translation. "I think Sant Mat is bogus."
> >
> >If somebody thinks a Sat Guru is pained by mudslinging, then I consider that
> >person to be suffering from a mental illness. Is that clear, Bruce?
> >
> Abolutely. However,
> considering that their
> is no "Sat Guru"
> involved here, it is
> utterly and completely
> moot.
There are Sat Gurus in the world. The fact that you have chosen not to
follow one of them speaks volumes, Bruce.
<snip>
> >> Not only moot, but
> >> desperate guesswork, all of
> >> it.
> >
> >What I wrote above is a fact. Since I was, once again, a victim of
> >mudslinging, then the mudslinging issue is very pertinent, not moot, as you
> >claim.
>
> Take it to the butcher's
> shop, Michaelji, that's
> where people actually buy
> baloney.
Why don't you give that advice to Paramahansaji? That was the baloney.
> Somebody has
> been considerate enough
> to point out a
> debilitating medical
> condition, all that
> remains is for you to
> seek out competent
> professional diagnosis
> and treatment -- that is
> what a mature adult does
> when confronted with the
> possibility of serious
> dis-ease.
You are the one who has not followed a Living Master. Any sincere seeker
will realize that without a Master, he is totally lost, and he will prostrate
at the feet of the Master. I did that. Bruce Morgen did not. I rest my
case.
> >
> >> Why would this fellow
> >> be jealous of a middle-aged
> >> guru wannabe with a single-
> >> digit number of chelas?
Maybe you're younger than me, so you still feel middle-aged. Wait 'til you
get my age, Bruce!
Maybe you could explain that, Bruce? Actually you've opposed my ministry
much more than Paramahansaji. Why? You explain, why, Bruce? Why have you
been involved in these cut and slash tactics for three years?
> >
> >People have been jealous of Sat Gurus since time immemorial.
>
> So what? There is no
> "Sat Guru" here to
> provoke such jealousy.
Since you don't follow a Sat Guru yourself, why should we take this
declaration seriously?
>
> >Walt Whitman
> >mentioned it in his poem, "To him that was crucified." Jealousy has often
> >caused Kings, or Emperors, to kill the Saints.
> >
> There are no "Kings" or
> "Emperors" here either.
Okay, allow me to clarify. I'm saying that, if even a King will get jealous
of a Saint, then it would not be surprising if anybody gets jealous.
<snip>
> >> Please, don't kid yourself
> >> on the basis of a dead man's
> >> clever aphorism.
> >
> >The truth is, that since the whole world is dancing to the tune of Satan, his
> >statement was right. He was not dancing to the tune of Satan. He was
> >dancing to the tune of the Almighty, as all Sat Gurus do.
>
> That may well be true, but
> the aphorism is still not
> applicable.
It is as pertinent as can be. Since I'm going in a different direction then
you or Paramahansaji, then I could very well be going in the right direction.
Especially, since your allegations don't have legs to stand on. Especially,
since you two indulge in despicable mudslinging, but I don't. Now, do you
see why it is applicable?
> >
> >Saint Paul said, "The God of this world (Satan or Kal) has blinded the
> >unbelievers."
> >
> You can't hide behind that
> one either.
Why should we think, that you are not blinded, when you make such statements,
that "No Sat Guru is here?" You have not chosen to follow any Sat Guru, at
all. That is a case of spiritual blindness, IMHO.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
>
> __________________________________________________
> http://come.to/realization
> http://www.atman.net/realization
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa
all the people participating in this newsgroup you are the only
one void of any authority to even speak.
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa
wrote:
>Sri,
>Your ignorance is showing. We neither press the eyes or swallow
the
>tongue.Though Prem Pal (Guru Maharaj Ji), and other offshoots
have
>incorperated this.
Your ignorance is showing no one presses the eyes, it's the
EYELIDS that is being lightly pressed and massaged in a circular
motion. Your ignorance is at its peak, khechari mudra is not
about "swallowing the tongue". And yes Shit Dayal taught all
three: exerting pressure on the eyelids, his own stupid version
of khechari, and tragus pressing.
>Soami Shiv Dayal was not, nor pretended to be, a swami descended
from
>Shankara.
Shit Dayal was never a Swami his followers corrupted the spelling
(rendering it Soami) when it was anglicized to evade possible
queries regarding his orthodoxy.
>And there is ample, or at least some evidence that the line
descended
>unbroken from Kabir/Nanak.
You are unsure. Idiot, Shit Dayal cannot claim to represent Guru
Nanak's lineage. By the orders given by Guru Gobind Singh in
April 1699 the Adi Granth Sahib was installed as the 11th and
LAST guru of the Sikh religion. Shit Dayal was a charlatan,
neither Sanatana Dharma Swami nor Sikh Guru though *claiming* to
be both.
>you are
>pissing in the wind, and getting all over yourself.
No, I am pissing privately and then you come and opened your
mouth endeavoring to swallow all of it.
>How bout we have lunch, and I kick your butt afterwords for
insulting
>my master and my friends?
>You buy.
How can you still have lunch when your stomach is already full of
my piss which you drank straight from the toilet bowl? Why don't
we arrange something like throwing rotten tomatoes at a large
photo of Shit Dayal. Tomatoes are on me.
Then I kick you in the neck.
Bruce Morgen
>In article <am9hfsgqcflm4471i...@4ax.com>,
> edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >In article <0kmffs48e249832er...@4ax.com>,
>> > edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> >> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> >> It's a silly endeavor and
>> >> I wouldn't blame him if he
>> >> continues to demur,
>
>> >Well, that's not surprising, coming from you.
>> >
>> >He challenged Sant Mat. I met his challenge. Why is it silly for me, but it
>> >is not silly for him to claim that Sant Mat is bogus? You are one amazing
>> >fellow, Bruce. If you think Sant Mat is bogus, as he does, then admit it
>> >like a man.
>>
>> I don't see Sant Mat in
>> general is bogus, I think
>> what you purvey and call
>> "Sant Mat" is bogus.
>
>What is bogus, is that you have never been in Sant Mat, and then, with your
>unmitigated gall, you think you know more about Sant Mat, than me, and I have
>35 years experience with it. Your participation in any discussion on Sant
>Mat, should be one of learning and humility, not the antithesis.
>
Whatever. I reiterate, I
respect Sant Mat (along
with many other approaches
to the truly sacred) but I
don't experience your
presentation of it as
authentic because you are
not speaking experientially
and it shows in every post
you submit,
>> >
>> >I'm not going to let you straddle the fence, Bruce.
>>
>> Like you could stop
>> anyone from doing anything?
>
>Well, I can point out what you're doing. Then you will have to explain
>yourself, or look like a coward.
I haven't the slightest
worry about my self-image
or the slightest interest
in your arbitrary criterion
for cowardice.
>
><snip>
>
>> >> Ah, but there is no sign of
>> >> it here, Michaelji.
>> >
>> >That is your opinion.
>>
>> It is an clear fact. This
>> fellow does sling mud --
>> calling Sri GMji "Turdner"
>> certainly qualifies -- but
>> the thrust of his post to
>> you was compassionate.
>
>It was mudslinging. Mudslinging is still mudslinging, whether it is done
>compassionately or not.
>
OK, opinion noted.
>> >
>> >> Methinks you see mudslinging
>> >> because you, like the Kal-
>> >> generated imposter voice you
>> >> call "The Lord," have taken
>> >> offense.
>> >
>> >Mudslinging is mudslinging. I am not throwing mud at him. Why do you think
>> >I have taken offense?
>>
>> ROTFLMAO!
>
>That's no excuse for not replying.
I see you anger as quite
obvious, but feel free to
stay in denial about that.
>
>> >> Being reminded of
>> >> your mental illness is
>> >> painful because some part of
>> >> you can still manage the
>> >> perceptual clarity to doubt
>> >> the lavish delusion that
>> >> rules your life and realize
>> >> that there is indeed such an
>> >> illness involved!
>> >
>> >If somebody knows about Sant Mat Masters, but has still not gotten initiated
>> >by the Master, then I consider that person to be suffering from mental
>> >illness. Is that clear, Bruce?
>>
>> Yes, thank you, absurd
>> opinion noted.
>
>Translation. "I think Sant Mat is bogus."
Incorrect translation. If
you had a modicum of insight,
you could have accurately
inferred "Sant Mat or other
sat guru bhakti paths are
not for those who aren't
devotionally inclined by
nature."
>> >
>> >If somebody thinks a Sat Guru is pained by mudslinging, then I consider that
>> >person to be suffering from a mental illness. Is that clear, Bruce?
>> >
>> Abolutely. However,
>> considering that their
>> is no "Sat Guru"
>> involved here, it is
>> utterly and completely
>> moot.
>
>There are Sat Gurus in the world.
Agreed!
>The fact that you have chosen not to
>follow one of them speaks volumes, Bruce.
>
The fact that you continue
to claim to be one of them
in the face of overwhelming
indications to the contrary
speaks many more of them!
><snip>
>
>> >> Not only moot, but
>> >> desperate guesswork, all of
>> >> it.
>> >
>> >What I wrote above is a fact. Since I was, once again, a victim of
>> >mudslinging, then the mudslinging issue is very pertinent, not moot, as you
>> >claim.
>>
>> Take it to the butcher's
>> shop, Michaelji, that's
>> where people actually buy
>> baloney.
>
>Why don't you give that advice to Paramahansaji?
Read what I wrote to him.
I assure you that I am an
Equal Opportunity
Destroyer! :-)
>That was the baloney.
He's certainly a baloney
vendor most of the time,
but let's give him credit
for consideration and
compassion on those rare
occasions when he manifests
them!
>
>> Somebody has
>> been considerate enough
>> to point out a
>> debilitating medical
>> condition, all that
>> remains is for you to
>> seek out competent
>> professional diagnosis
>> and treatment -- that is
>> what a mature adult does
>> when confronted with the
>> possibility of serious
>> dis-ease.
>
>You are the one who has not followed a Living Master.
Indeed!
>Any sincere seeker
>will realize that without a Master, he is totally lost, and he will prostrate
>at the feet of the Master.
Baloney, sat guru bhakti is
only one of many approaches.
>I did that.
Yes, and look at the result!
>Bruce Morgen did not. I rest my
>case.
I throw myself on the mercy
of the court! :-)
>
>> >
>> >> Why would this fellow
>> >> be jealous of a middle-aged
>> >> guru wannabe with a single-
>> >> digit number of chelas?
>
>Maybe you're younger than me, so you still feel middle-aged. Wait 'til you
>get my age, Bruce!
Let's not pretend there's
some kind of generation gap
here, Michaelji. If you
feel old beyond your years,
your mental condition
certainly bears looking into,
since that's an indication
of a number of disorders if
you are otherwise healthy.
>
>Maybe you could explain that, Bruce? Actually you've opposed my ministry
>much more than Paramahansaji. Why?
You've posted hundreds of
times for every one of his
posts. If he was as active
as you've been, he'd get a
similar level of response
from here.
>You explain, why, Bruce?
See above.
>Why have you
>been involved in these cut and slash tactics for three years?
>
Love's behest is to point
toward truth and point out
falsehood. You can run,
but you can't hide!
>> >
>> >People have been jealous of Sat Gurus since time immemorial.
>>
>> So what? There is no
>> "Sat Guru" here to
>> provoke such jealousy.
>
>Since you don't follow a Sat Guru yourself, why should we take this
>declaration seriously?
>
No reason at all, it's
either self-evidently
credible or it isn't.
>>
>> >Walt Whitman
>> >mentioned it in his poem, "To him that was crucified." Jealousy has often
>> >caused Kings, or Emperors, to kill the Saints.
>> >
>> There are no "Kings" or
>> "Emperors" here either.
>
>Okay, allow me to clarify.
Please do.
>I'm saying that, if even a King will get jealous
>of a Saint, then it would not be surprising if anybody gets jealous.
>
Those in power become
jealous of anyone who
threatens that power. A
popular spiritual teacher
qualifies, an utter and
abject failure has nothing
whatsoever to fear.
><snip>
>
>> >> Please, don't kid yourself
>> >> on the basis of a dead man's
>> >> clever aphorism.
>> >
>> >The truth is, that since the whole world is dancing to the tune of Satan, his
>> >statement was right. He was not dancing to the tune of Satan. He was
>> >dancing to the tune of the Almighty, as all Sat Gurus do.
>>
>> That may well be true, but
>> the aphorism is still not
>> applicable.
>
>It is as pertinent as can be. Since I'm going in a different direction then
>you or Paramahansaji, then I could very well be going in the right direction.
Kindly don't associate me
with that smart-mouthed
poseur. Thank you.
> Especially, since your allegations don't have legs to stand on. Especially,
>since you two indulge in despicable mudslinging, but I don't. Now, do you
>see why it is applicable?
>
No, you are inferring
something that isn't
there.
>> >
>> >Saint Paul said, "The God of this world (Satan or Kal) has blinded the
>> >unbelievers."
>> >
>> You can't hide behind that
>> one either.
>
>Why should we think, that you are not blinded, when you make such statements,
>that "No Sat Guru is here?"
Three years of postings
clearly indicating that you
aren't a Sat Guru suffice
quite nicely, thank you!
>You have not chosen to follow any Sat Guru, at
>all.
Quite right.
>That is a case of spiritual blindness, IMHO.
>
Opinion noted.
gck...@my-deja.com
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa
<filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> wrote:
> >Sri,
> >Your ignorance is showing. We neither press the eyes or swallow
> the
> >tongue.Though Prem Pal (Guru Maharaj Ji), and other offshoots
> have
> >incorperated this.
>
> Your ignorance is showing no one presses the eyes, it's the
> EYELIDS that is being lightly pressed and massaged in a circular
> motion. Your ignorance is at its peak, khechari mudra is not
> about "swallowing the tongue". And yes Shit Dayal taught all
> three: exerting pressure on the eyelids, his own stupid version
> of khechari, and tragus pressing.
Like I said, we do not touch the eyes, nor anything with the tongue.
There are two practices, one of seeing, and one of listening to the
Naam.
It is the same Naam of Kabir and Nanak, the same Light and Sound.
None of the mudras are done. What evidence do you have that Shiv Dayal
taught any of that. It is sheer speculation on your part. Perhaps you
have some pressure on your brain.
>
> >Soami Shiv Dayal was not, nor pretended to be, a swami descended
> from
> >Shankara.
>
> Shit Dayal was never a Swami his followers corrupted the spelling
> (rendering it Soami) when it was anglicized to evade possible
> queries regarding his orthodoxy.
Again, there was never an attempt to present him as a swami in any
tradition. Soami here means the absolute Lord, Rahdha the manifest form.
>
> >And there is ample, or at least some evidence that the line
> descended
> >unbroken from Kabir/Nanak.
>
> You are unsure. Idiot, Shit Dayal cannot claim to represent Guru
> Nanak's lineage. By the orders given by Guru Gobind Singh in
> April 1699 the Adi Granth Sahib was installed as the 11th and
> LAST guru of the Sikh religion. Shit Dayal was a charlatan,
> neither Sanatana Dharma Swami nor Sikh Guru though *claiming* to
be both.
How absurd. The Granth is replete with praises of a living sant.
I suppose you were there in April 1699?
If you are going to cite orthodox interpretations from scriptures, then
you are certainly not going to be in any good light with any orthodox
Christians for your statements about your connection with Christ, as on
your website.
>
> >you are
> >pissing in the wind, and getting all over yourself.
>
> No, I am pissing privately and then you come and opened your
> mouth endeavoring to swallow all of it.
>
> >How bout we have lunch, and I kick your butt afterwords for
> insulting
> >my master and my friends?
> >You buy.
>
> How can you still have lunch when your stomach is already full of
> my piss which you drank straight from the toilet bowl? Why don't
> we arrange something like throwing rotten tomatoes at a large
> photo of Shit Dayal. Tomatoes are on me.
>
> Then I kick you in the neck.
You know what, I think you are an arrogant little punk, and this is no
cyber pretense. You are certainly way off the mark scholastically and
philosophically. Your information is entirely incorrect, and I wonder
what your problem is. I wonder if the swami who "ordained" you would
like to see the type of postings you are making under the auspices of
his endorsement? I kinda doubt he would approve. Since his address is
on your website, I might just print out some of your nonsense and send
it to him, I have been known to do such.
I wonder if your employer would have any interest in the same?
I would think so.
Re: :kicking me in the neck
At this point all I can say is bring it on Junior.
You certainly are no swami.
How could you possibly have the time, when you are such a nasty, dirty-
mouhted little fellow.
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion
Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet -
Free!
>
>
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa
wrote:
>What evidence do you have that Shiv Dayal
>taught any of that. It is sheer speculation on your part.
Hi gcqueer! How disastrous is your knowledge regarding the bogus
tradition that you chose to follow! If I can cite references to
prove that Shit Dayal indeed taught those techniques, would you
be man enough (gcQUEER) to stand on your previous promise (two
posts ago) not to reply to any of my messages anymore? Since you
obviously don't have a word of honor (as most followers of bogus
traditions like Sant Mat are) you're simply not worth it. But
you're a nice toy though.
>>Perhaps you
>>have some pressure on your brain.
For your education pressure is present in varying proportions in
every morsel of the human physiology. Misinformed Dayal
butt-suck.
>>
>> >Soami Shiv Dayal was not, nor pretended to be, a swami
descended
>> from
>> >Shankara.
>>
>> Shit Dayal was never a Swami his followers corrupted the
spelling
>> (rendering it Soami) when it was anglicized to evade possible
>> queries regarding his orthodoxy.
>
>Again, there was never an attempt to present him as a swami in
any
>tradition. Soami here means the absolute Lord, Rahdha the
manifest form.
Swami or svamin means "owner" a master of himself (swa). Idiot! I
was referring to Swami or its Radha Soami corruption Soami as
used by Shit Dayal as an honorific or title "Soami ji". Shit
Dayal was neither a Sikh Guru nor a Sanatana Dharma Swami, he was
an old deluded wannabe hallucinating a lot due to regularly
puffing weed from his hooka. Granting for the sake of argument
that it was indeed tobacco I give you the Ninth Essential Element
of the Khalsa as declared by Guru Gobind Singh: "One should treat
the relatives of others as one's own family and treat them as
such. THERE SHOULD BE NO gambling, theft, or USE OF TOBACCO or
alcohol". Radha was Sri Krishna's most prominent consort, a gopi,
she symbolizes nature hence the union of Krishna and Radha:
Spirit and Nature or individuality and Universality. This is
again another preschool info where you failed miserably.
>> >And there is ample, or at least some evidence that the line
>> descended
>> >unbroken from Kabir/Nanak.
>>
>> You are unsure. Idiot, Shit Dayal cannot claim to represent
Guru
>> Nanak's lineage. By the orders given by Guru Gobind Singh in
>> April 1699 the Adi Granth Sahib was installed as the 11th and
>> LAST guru of the Sikh religion. Shit Dayal was a charlatan,
>> neither Sanatana Dharma Swami nor Sikh Guru though *claiming*
to
>
>be both.
>
>How absurd. The Granth is replete with praises of a living sant.
Moron! I have read the entire Guru Granth Sahib and there wasn't
even a hint of Shit Dayal (of course). When I first brought out
this issue of the Khalsa Turdner "The Ex-Astigmatic Hanta, The
Living Egg Monster" even denied that Shit Dayal claimed to be a
Sikh Guru. Now both of you are trying to convince the people that
he was indeed a successor. You see, it's very hard to support the
preposterous claims of a bogus moron
hybrid-divinatory-pseudo-brahmanical guru wannabe junkie like
"Soami ji" Shit Dayal.
>I suppose you were there in April 1699?
Nincompoop! Who told you that I have to be there? {{{HE HE HE
HE}}} Funny toy.
>what your problem is. I wonder if the swami who "ordained" you
would
>like to see the type of postings you are making under the
auspices of
>his endorsement?
I am not acting "under the auspices" of anyone's "endorsement".
Orthodox Sanatana Dharmists are with me when laughing and
spitting at such pretentious counterfeit "guru" weasels like Shit
Dayal and the stupid "tradition" he founded.
sh...@my-deja.com
Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa <filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid>
wrote:
> Hi there Bruce Morgue "Turdner's Cyber-Nanny"! Realize that of
> all the people participating in this newsgroup you are the only
> one void of any authority to even speak.
I started this thread about Param Sant Param Dayal Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj,
because I thought we might have an uplifting spiritual discussion. Instead,
it is descended to this level.
Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj was a Great Master, he was the spiritual grandson of
Soami Ji Maharaj. His Master, Shivbrat Lal Ji Maharaj, was also, a Great
Master. He was a spiritual son of Soami Ji Maharaj. He wrote some of the
early books on Sant Mat. One of them was called Ananda Yoga, the Yoga of
Bliss, I believe.
Let's try to get this conversation back on the spiritual track. That's my
suggestion.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
>
>
Bruce Morgen
>Hi there Bruce Morgue "Turdner's Cyber-Nanny"! Realize that of
>all the people participating in this newsgroup you are the only
>one void of any authority to even speak.
>
Opinion noted. Go away,
little boy, your ankle
biting is tiresome, as
is your seventh grade
schoolyard idea of word
play. Do your oh-so-
serious Hindu patrons
know how you conduct
yourself on Usenet?
sh...@my-deja.com
edi...@juno.com wrote:
> Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa <filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> >Hi there Bruce Morgue "Turdner's Cyber-Nanny"! Realize that of
> >all the people participating in this newsgroup you are the only
> >one void of any authority to even speak.
> >
> Opinion noted. Go away,
> little boy, your ankle
> biting is tiresome, as
> is your seventh grade
> schoolyard idea of word
> play. Do your oh-so-
> serious Hindu patrons
> know how you conduct
> yourself on Usenet?
Bruce, I'm going to paste some of the dialogue you and I have had:
Bruce Morgen Ji wrote:
It is an clear fact. This
fellow does sling mud --
calling Sri GMji "Turdner"
certainly qualifies -- but
the thrust of his post to
you was compassionate.
MM wrote:
It was mudslinging. Mudslinging is still mudslinging, whether it is done
compassionately or not.
BM wrote:
OK, opinion noted.
BM wrote:
Methinks you see mudslinging
because you, like the Kal-
generated imposter voice you
call "The Lord," have taken
offense.
MM wrote: Mudslinging is mudslinging. I am not throwing mud at him. Why do
you think I have taken offense?
BM wrote:
ROTFLMAO!
MM wrote:
That's no excuse for not replying.
BM wrote:
I see your anger as quite
obvious, but feel free to
stay in denial about that.
All right, Bruce. Now, I would like you to state whether you feel any anger
or not, and also, you might comment on whether you think Paramahansaji's
reply to you was compassionate???? Would you classify it as mudslinging, or
not????
ROFLMBO
We reap what we sow, don't we? That ankle biting does get tiresome, doesn't
it?
Michael Martin
Western Sat Guru
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
__________________________________________________
> http://come.to/realization
> http://www.atman.net/realization
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>
G. Michael Turner
gmt
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa wrote in message
<15cadfd4...@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com>...
>In article <8dbbji$mn8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, gck...@my-deja.com
>wrote:
>>Sri,
>>Your ignorance is showing. We neither press the eyes or swallow
>the
>>tongue.Though Prem Pal (Guru Maharaj Ji), and other offshoots
>have
>>incorperated this.
>
>Your ignorance is showing no one presses the eyes, it's the
>EYELIDS that is being lightly pressed and massaged in a circular
>motion. Your ignorance is at its peak, khechari mudra is not
>about "swallowing the tongue". And yes Shit Dayal taught all
>three: exerting pressure on the eyelids, his own stupid version
>of khechari, and tragus pressing.
>
>>Soami Shiv Dayal was not, nor pretended to be, a swami descended
>from
>>Shankara.
>
>Shit Dayal was never a Swami his followers corrupted the spelling
>(rendering it Soami) when it was anglicized to evade possible
>queries regarding his orthodoxy.
>
>>And there is ample, or at least some evidence that the line
>descended
>>unbroken from Kabir/Nanak.
>
>You are unsure. Idiot, Shit Dayal cannot claim to represent Guru
>Nanak's lineage. By the orders given by Guru Gobind Singh in
>April 1699 the Adi Granth Sahib was installed as the 11th and
>LAST guru of the Sikh religion. Shit Dayal was a charlatan,
>neither Sanatana Dharma Swami nor Sikh Guru though *claiming* to
>be both.
>
>>you are
>>pissing in the wind, and getting all over yourself.
>
>No, I am pissing privately and then you come and opened your
>mouth endeavoring to swallow all of it.
>
>>How bout we have lunch, and I kick your butt afterwords for
>insulting
>>my master and my friends?
>>You buy.
>
>How can you still have lunch when your stomach is already full of
>my piss which you drank straight from the toilet bowl? Why don't
>we arrange something like throwing rotten tomatoes at a large
>photo of Shit Dayal. Tomatoes are on me.
>
>Then I kick you in the neck.
>
G. Michael Turner
gck...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8dddem$qis$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <15cadfd4...@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com>,
> Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa
><filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Shit Dayal was never a Swami his followers corrupted the spelling
>> (rendering it Soami) when it was anglicized to evade possible
>> queries regarding his orthodoxy.
>
>Again, there was never an attempt to present him as a swami in any
>tradition. Soami here means the absolute Lord, Rahdha the manifest form.
>>
>> >And there is ample, or at least some evidence that the line
>> descended
>> >unbroken from Kabir/Nanak.
>>
>> You are unsure. Idiot, Shit Dayal cannot claim to represent Guru
>> Nanak's lineage. By the orders given by Guru Gobind Singh in
>> April 1699 the Adi Granth Sahib was installed as the 11th and
>> LAST guru of the Sikh religion. Shit Dayal was a charlatan,
>> neither Sanatana Dharma Swami nor Sikh Guru though *claiming* to
>
>be both.
>
>How absurd. The Granth is replete with praises of a living sant.
>I suppose you were there in April 1699?
>If you are going to cite orthodox interpretations from scriptures, then
>you are certainly not going to be in any good light with any orthodox
>Christians for your statements about your connection with Christ, as on
>your website.
Good point, Jay. It's also important to understand the context within which
Guru Gobind Singh allegedly made the Adi Granth Sahib the "11th and last
guru of the Sikh lineage." Gobind Ji was dying, and there was no one he
knew of whom he had initiated to take his place. When his disciples asked
him where to turn for guidance, he basically said: "It's all in the book."
and then expired. Of course we know the current of Naam flows through all
initiates and satsangis because it needs a human exponent as an anchor point
in this world at all times. Sometimes that exponent is major capacitor for
the Current to flow through, and sometimes he or she is more lightly wired -
and sometimes there are several. All the Current does is flow, out of the
heart of God, and back to God, in an endless wave of divine love expressed
through light and sound. When It reaches the earth plane, It expresses
ItSelf through human instruments - and, like a river, It is always seeking
the path of least resistance and greatest clarity for Its expression.
It's pretty nifty, actually.
Much love in Naam Eternal,
Michael
G. Michael Turner
for people of various Shabda disciplines and schools to get together and
share their perspectives on the path. Imagine my consternation when you
showed up and acted as if the newsgroup was setup by God to be your personal
soapbox with no concern or consideration for other members of the group.
This concern was exponentially increased when you started posting utterly
bogus stories about fictional histories of mars and God's personal
endorsement of the Jaguars as Superbowl champions - material which my be
metaphysically amusing but has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the
Light and Sound Teachings.
I remember a while back, I posted a nice passage from Sar Bachan Radhasoami,
just to share a bit of Shiv Dayal Singh's beautiful insight. Instead of
respecting that, and at most saying something like "What a beautiful quote;"
instead you posted "Yes. I wrote that." What a supremely egotistical and
offensive thing to say, and yet you remain utterly clueless as to the impact
of your comments.
You wrote in another posting here about how the Lord doesn't like profanity.
I basically agree that using foul language is a sign of a limited
vocabulary, and tends to lower the level of conversation. But far more
offensive, in my opinion, is using God as your personal ego booster, such as
posting messages like "Anami Purush is my Cheerleader," and indicating God
endorses sports teams and has told you so personally. This is infinitely
more sacriligious and disrespectful to the Lord than using four letter words
(though I personally take offense at that numb nuts douche bag
Brahmananda.... so fouly denigrating Soamiji Dayal, a God-realized man who
was the greatest saint of his century). Quite frankly, Mr. Martin, what God
has told me is very similar to what George Burns told John Denver in Oh God,
when John Denver was dealing with the televangelist huckster. God (George
Burns) said to John Denver "Tell Reverend Bigmouth to quit taking advantage
of people, and go sell earth shoes or something." God told me the same
thing about you, Mr. Martin. You are deluded and are mistaking the voice of
your ego and the mind power (Kal) for the True Lord, and in doing so are
misleading people - starting with yourself. Your master (Maharaj Charan
Singh) did not establish you as a successor, nor has God at any time done a
similar thing. It's all your ego's doing. If you truly want to know and
serve God, you would be much better off returning as a satsangi of your
masters *only* successor, Maharaj Gurinder Singh, and being a true gurumukh,
instead of a pretender.
I will say I have learned a lot from you. One thing I've learned is that,
even if you are inspired and feel that God has chosen you for a special
mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed master.
Even though it is ultimately God and Naam that doing the selecting of their
instruments of expression, there is unfathomable benefit in being groomed by
a living saint to be his/her successor, and have that successorship clearly
stated and understood. Among other things - and perhaps this is the most
important thing - it is a tremendous check on the possibility of spiritual
vanity and egotism sneaking in and leading to unbalanced thinking and
proclaimations, which is a major detriment to being a clear, harmonious
instrument for the Lord's expression.
I still think I have a lot to say about Sant Mat, and that I have a talent
for expressing it in a western cultural context that a lot of people can
understand. But I don't feel a driving need to do it as a self-proclaimed
Satguru to the Western World (or ever western Tucson). I'm happy being a
husband, musician and writer, and expressing my personal devotion to the
Light and Sound of God through my songs and articles. I leave it up to each
individual to decide who the best teacher for them is. I'm just happy doing
my daily abhyas and communing with the Word.
In Naam,
Gregory Michael Turner
sh...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8ddpap$6pr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <0ad8737c...@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com>, Sri
>Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa <filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>> Hi there Bruce Morgue "Turdner's Cyber-Nanny"! Realize that of
>> all the people participating in this newsgroup you are the only
>> one void of any authority to even speak.
>
>I started this thread about Param Sant Param Dayal Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj,
>because I thought we might have an uplifting spiritual discussion.
Instead,
>it is descended to this level.
>
>Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj was a Great Master, he was the spiritual grandson of
>Soami Ji Maharaj. His Master, Shivbrat Lal Ji Maharaj, was also, a Great
>Master. He was a spiritual son of Soami Ji Maharaj. He wrote some of the
>early books on Sant Mat. One of them was called Ananda Yoga, the Yoga of
>Bliss, I believe.
>
>Let's try to get this conversation back on the spiritual track. That's my
>suggestion.
>
>Michael Martin
>http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
>
>>
>> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion
Network *
>> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
>>
>>
>
>
Bruce Morgen
>In article <vvvkfsk6nsin6g02q...@4ax.com>,
> edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa <filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >Hi there Bruce Morgue "Turdner's Cyber-Nanny"! Realize that of
>> >all the people participating in this newsgroup you are the only
>> >one void of any authority to even speak.
>> >
No anger at all.
>and also, you might comment on whether you think Paramahansaji's
>reply to you was compassionate????
No,
>Would you classify it as mudslinging, or
>not????
No, his view of me is
quite understandable
considering his adherence
to certain rote
orthodoxies. I don't see
you as "mudslinging"
either, you are sharing
what you observe through
the aggregate perceptual
lenses of Beas
conditioning and mental
disorder and are doing
your honest best while
laboring under those
handicaps.
>
>ROFLMBO
Glad you're enjoying
yourself.
>
>We reap what we sow, don't we? That ankle biting does get tiresome, doesn't
>it?
>
Not really, but I was
considering the readers.
I find this fellow very
amusing, he is
accustomed to having his
ample knowledge and his
skill with language pass
for authenticity. He is
a younger, nastier,
somewhat less deluded
edition of you. I'd say
he is less deluded
because I'm quite sure
that he's well aware
that he's about as much
of a "Paramahansa" as
you are the reigning
Miss America-- this
makes him more
responsible for his
falseness, more of a
classic false guru
because he shows no sign
of mental illness.
Darryl G. Lindgren
Darryl G. Lindgren
On Sun, 16 Apr 2000, Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa wrote:
G. Michael Turner
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa wrote in message
>In article <8dddem$qis$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, gcq...@my-deja.com
>wrote:
>>What evidence do you have that Shiv Dayal
>>taught any of that. It is sheer speculation on your part.
>
>Hi gcqueer!
Ahhh, my dear brother Brahmananda - dealing with some repressed homo-erotic
desires are we? You poor thing - all you need is some good firm man love.
It would clear up the blockages in your first two lower chakras and leave
you in a much better mood.
Now just bend over and say "Deeper please sir!."
:-)
gmt
sh...@my-deja.com
> for people of various Shabda disciplines and schools to get together and
> share their perspectives on the path. Imagine my consternation when you
> showed up and acted as if the newsgroup was setup by God to be your personal
> soapbox with no concern or consideration for other members of the group.
Well, at least, I didn't claim to be an Eckist on alt.religion.eckankar. I
didn't claim to be a Mahanta on their NG. Your claim to be Sat Guru was based
on the assumption that the spirituality of Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji was passed
to Kirpal Singh Ji, and then to Paul Twitchell, then to Darwin Gross, then to
you.
How much concern did you have for the Beas Satsangis?
> This concern was exponentially increased when you started posting utterly
> bogus stories about fictional histories of mars and God's personal
> endorsement of the Jaguars as Superbowl champions - material which my be
> metaphysically amusing but has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the
> Light and Sound Teachings.
The readings about Mars were/are True. Anami Purush told me. He was there,
even in physical form.
I never said the Jaquars would be Superbowl Champions. I said they had
gained the "favor," of Anami Purush. They went from an expansion team, to
one of the most valuable teams in the NFL.
>
> I remember a while back, I posted a nice passage from Sar Bachan Radhasoami,
> just to share a bit of Shiv Dayal Singh's beautiful insight. Instead of
> respecting that, and at most saying something like "What a beautiful quote;"
> instead you posted "Yes. I wrote that." What a supremely egotistical and
> offensive thing to say, and yet you remain utterly clueless as to the impact
> of your comments.
Well, if I wrote it, then I wrote it. It is a fact, not an expression of
ego. I discussed about "spiritual ego," recently, and St. Paul said that
Saints tell us the truth. For example, Christ said, "When you have seen me,
you have seen the Father." That was not "spiritual ego." It was simply the
truth. If we want to argue about everything Saints say, and accuse them of
having "spiritual ego," then we will be wrong.
>
> You wrote in another posting here about how the Lord doesn't like profanity.
> I basically agree that using foul language is a sign of a limited
> vocabulary, and tends to lower the level of conversation.
Not only that, but it brings up images in the mind, profane images of
donkeys, pigs, etc. It is repugnant to a "high" soul.
> But far more
> offensive, in my opinion, is using God as your personal ego booster, such as
> posting messages like "Anami Purush is my Cheerleader," and indicating God
> endorses sports teams and has told you so personally. This is infinitely
> more sacriligious and disrespectful to the Lord than using four letter words
> (though I personally take offense at that numb nuts douche bag
> Brahmananda.... so fouly denigrating Soamiji Dayal, a God-realized man who
> was the greatest saint of his century).
I have a nice relationship with him. He is happy, so far at least, with my
postings. I can't say that about some of the other postings.
> Quite frankly, Mr. Martin, what God
> has told me is very similar to what George Burns told John Denver in Oh God,
> when John Denver was dealing with the televangelist huckster. God (George
> Burns) said to John Denver "Tell Reverend Bigmouth to quit taking advantage
> of people, and go sell earth shoes or something." God told me the same
> thing about you, Mr. Martin. You are deluded and are mistaking the voice of
> your ego and the mind power (Kal) for the True Lord, and in doing so are
> misleading people - starting with yourself.
As I wrote above, your entire ministry, from which you have retired, was
based on the assumption of spirituality passed to you from Sawan Singh Ji
Maharaj, via Kirpal Singh Ji, Paul Twitchell and Darwin Gross. It is up to
the readers to have faith in you or not. You say that you are retired, and
now that casts a different light on it.
> Your master (Maharaj Charan
> Singh) did not establish you as a successor, nor has God at any time done a
> similar thing.
This is your opinion. It is an allegation without a leg to stand on. I mean
the latter clause. I have never claimed to be a successor of MCSJ. I was
appointed by Anami Radha Soami Purush (The Nameless Lord of the Soul).
> It's all your ego's doing. If you truly want to know and
> serve God, you would be much better off returning as a satsangi of your
> masters *only* successor, Maharaj Gurinder Singh, and being a true gurumukh,
> instead of a pretender.
That is something entirely different, than what Anami Purush tells me, GMT.
I would advise you to find a True Master, and ask him for initiation in Sant
Mat.
>
> I will say I have learned a lot from you. One thing I've learned is that,
> even if you are inspired and feel that God has chosen you for a special
> mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed master.
> Even though it is ultimately God and Naam that doing the selecting of their
> instruments of expression, there is unfathomable benefit in being groomed by
> a living saint to be his/her successor, and have that successorship clearly
> stated and understood. Among other things - and perhaps this is the most
> important thing - it is a tremendous check on the possibility of spiritual
> vanity and egotism sneaking in and leading to unbalanced thinking and
> proclaimations, which is a major detriment to being a clear, harmonious
> instrument for the Lord's expression.
Well, God is within us, and he can manifest in anyone, and then, that person
will be the Sat Guru.
>
> I still think I have a lot to say about Sant Mat, and that I have a talent
> for expressing it in a western cultural context that a lot of people can
> understand.
I have always viewed you as an Eckist, despite the fact that you continue to
say that you have an association with Sant Mat.
> But I don't feel a driving need to do it as a self-proclaimed
> Satguru to the Western World (or ever western Tucson). I'm happy being a
> husband, musician and writer, and expressing my personal devotion to the
> Light and Sound of God through my songs and articles. I leave it up to each
> individual to decide who the best teacher for them is. I'm just happy doing
> my daily abhyas and communing with the Word.
Yes, I'm leaving it up to each individual, also.
>
> In Naam,
>
> Gregory Michael Turner
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
R.F. Pickett
SNIP
> I will say I have learned a lot from you. One thing I've learned is that,
> even if you are inspired and feel that God has chosen you for a special
> mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed master.
> Even though it is ultimately God and Naam that doing the selecting of their
> instruments of expression, there is unfathomable benefit in being groomed by
> a living saint to be his/her successor, and have that successorship clearly
> stated and understood. Among other things - and perhaps this is the most
> important thing - it is a tremendous check on the possibility of spiritual
> vanity and egotism sneaking in and leading to unbalanced thinking and
> proclaimations, which is a major detriment to being a clear, harmonious
> instrument for the Lord's expression.
>
> I still think I have a lot to say about Sant Mat, and that I have a talent
> for expressing it in a western cultural context that a lot of people can
> understand. But I don't feel a driving need to do it as a self-proclaimed
> husband, musician and writer, and expressing my personal devotion to the
> Light and Sound of God through my songs and articles. I leave it up to each
> individual to decide who the best teacher for them is. I'm just happy doing
> my daily abhyas and communing with the Word.
>
> In Naam,
>
> Gregory Michael Turner
Sounds like you're referring to your own sojourn as a self-proclaimed master.
Let me get this straight. After setting yourself up as the self-proclaimed 974th Living
Master of the Midnight Sun, retiring and directing those seeking initiation to Rajinder
Singh, you are now leaving "it up to each individual to decide who the best teacher for
them is?"
**********************************************
Q:
Who appointed you as a Shabda yoga master?
Turner's Answer:
Soamiji Dayal
Q:
When and where?
Turner's Answer:
Based upon my personal inner experience, I was asked if I would serve in this position
in the Spring of 1993 ( think it was sometime in April). There was no sense of it being
any plane in particular - just Soamiji Dayal, surrounded by golden light. Physically,
I was in Tucson, AZ. I was given a few months to adjust to this, and began teaching
officially in October 1993.
Objectively speaking, when someone asks me "Who made you 'Sri'?" my response is "I
did." Because for all intents and purposes, empirically that's the case. After all,
nobody can interview Soamiji Dayal and ask him if he came to me in a vision and told me
to bring his children back together.
Q:
Let me see if I've got this study history straight.
To recap:
You joined Eckankar in October of 1976. You remained in Eckankar until 1989, leaving
before reaching the Fifth Initiation.
Turner's Answer:
Quick point of information - I remained in Eckankar until 1993 (with a couple of
sabbaticals thrown in). Received what could safely be called the Fifth Initiation with
Darwin Gross and the Sixth Initiation from him in June of 1993.
From 1989 till 1993 I was an Eckist (even helped organized the California Regional
Seminar in 1991), but was also in contact with Darwin, trying to get to the bottom of
the whole brouhaha between him and Harold.
Q:
You are not recognized by any of your teachers, Harold Klemp , Darwin Gross or Thakar
Singh?
Nor do I expect (or desire) to be. Were I either one's proclaimed successor, it would
bind me to all of the legal morass which has bound them like a tar baby for over a
decade. This is why I specifically asked Darwin to release me as his area rep and
defacto "agent" in the fall of 1993, so there would be no way anything I said could be
used against him. He graciously agreed to do so.
http://members.tripod.com/Oasis_Committee/oasis/turner.htm#TOP
R.F. Pickett
>
> In article <0ad8737c...@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com>, Sri
> Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa <filipino_g...@yahoo.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi there Bruce Morgue "Turdner's Cyber-Nanny"! Realize that of
> > all the people participating in this newsgroup you are the only
> > one void of any authority to even speak.
>
> I started this thread about Param Sant Param Dayal Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj,
> because I thought we might have an uplifting spiritual discussion. Instead,
> it is descended to this level.
>
> Faqir Chand Ji Maharaj was a Great Master, he was the spiritual grandson of
> Soami Ji Maharaj. His Master, Shivbrat Lal Ji Maharaj, was also, a Great
> Master. He was a spiritual son of Soami Ji Maharaj. He wrote some of the
> early books on Sant Mat. One of them was called Ananda Yoga, the Yoga of
> Bliss, I believe.
>
> Let's try to get this conversation back on the spiritual track. That's my
> suggestion.
>
> Michael Martin
The best way to get it back on track is to read the works of Chand directly without the
Martin commentary: http://vclass.mtsac.edu:940/dlane/babafaqir.htm
Anne
happy being a
>> husband, musician and writer, and expressing my personal
devotion to the
>> Light and Sound of God through my songs and articles. I leave
it up to each
>> individual to decide who the best teacher for them is. I'm
just happy doing
>> my daily abhyas and communing with the Word.
>>
>> In Naam,
>>
>> Gregory Michael Turner
This is a surprise to me Michael, but I am SO pleased to hear
that you have found the way that works for you. I admire your
courage and willingness to explore and learn. May the blessings
be.
Anne Walton (in Phoenix)
R.F. Pickett
> I have always viewed you as an Eckist, despite the fact that you continue to
> say that you have an association with Sant Mat.
Turner left Eckankar to follow Gross' ATOM teaching, began his own teaching, then took
initiation from representatives of Thakar Singh, a Sant Mat Guru.
So, yes, Turner was initiated into Eckankar, ATOM, and Sant Mat.
He left Eckankar, and ATOM, but continues to practice Sant Mat.
I'm sorry, Mr. Martin, he's one of yours now, but you're doing an excellent job of
instructing him that "if you are inspired and feel that God has chosen you for a
special mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed master."
My congratulations to you on your highly effective teaching style.
***************************************
Question to Turner:
You make extravagant claims on the unity between Eckankar and Sant Mat that are not
shared by Paul Twitchell, Harold Klemp or Darwin Gross. Have you ever been initiated by
a Sant Mat guru?
Turner's Answer:
A few years back (I think it was 1994 or 95 - I really forget which, but definitely
after I started teaching), a couple of Thakar Singh's representatives were in town
offering a free talk on Sant Mat. Being as how I like checking out all of the other
groups offering Light and Sound instruction, I decided to go take a gander and see what
they had to say.
After the first half of the meeting there was a break, after which they were offering
initiation to any interested parties. I was planning on leaving at that point, when I
received an inner nudge to hang out for the second half.
I thought about it and decided it would be one way of doing my part help pay off at
least a portion of Paul Twitchell's karma to Kirpal Singh. So I stayed, sat through
the instructions and had a very nice inner experience with Sant Kirpal Ji in the
process.
http://members.tripod.com/Oasis_Committee/oasis/turner.htm#TOP
rfp
--
The opinions expressed here are those of the writer and not necessarily
those of ECKANKAR or the Living ECK Master, Sri Harold Klemp.
Dr. Suryadas Singh
It saddens me that many of our western brothers bought Mr. Shiv Dayal
Singh's fantastic claims right away. You are correct he was neither a
swami nor a Sikh guru, just some lunatic cult leader.
I would just like to get the people's attention regarding this humorous
fable told by the severely misinformed Mr. Turner
> >"Gobind Ji was dying, and there was no one he knew of whom he had
> >initiated to take his place. When his disciples asked him where to
> >turn for guidance, he basically said: "It's all in the book." and
> >then expired."
Note that what he said is completely false, there was no such
occurrence. Guru Gobind Singh Ji was still young and able when he gave
his instructions regarding the Granth.
These deluded groups the Radha Soami beas and its immediate offshoot
Eckankar are blaspheming the glories of Akal Purakh to enrich themselves
and gain worldly power. I am very much against these movements.
R.F. Pickett
sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <38FB349F...@naxs.com>,
> "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > sh...@my-deja.com [Michael Martin] wrote to G. Michael Turner:
> >
> > > I have always viewed you as an Eckist, despite the fact that you continue to
> > > say that you have an association with Sant Mat.
> >
> > Turner left Eckankar to follow Gross' ATOM teaching, began his own teaching, then > > took initiation from representatives of Thakar Singh, a Sant Mat Guru.
> >
> > So, yes, Turner was initiated into Eckankar, ATOM, and Sant Mat.
> > He left Eckankar, and ATOM, but continues to practice Sant Mat.
> >
> > I'm sorry, Mr. Martin, he's one of yours now, but you're doing an excellent job of
> > instructing him that "if you are inspired and feel that God has chosen you for a
> > special mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed > > master."
> > My congratulations to you on your highly effective teaching style.
>
> I didn't instruct him that, at all, Mr. Pickett. He had already hung out his
> "shingle," before I had any karma with him.
Ah, you may not claim to have instructed him, but he claims to have learned from you.
G. Michael Turner - Sat Guru Emeritus to Michael Martin- Sat Guru for the Western
World:
I will say I have learned a lot from you. One thing I've learned is that,
even if you are inspired and feel that God has chosen you for a special
mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed master.
Even though it is ultimately God and Naam that doing the selecting of their
instruments of expression, there is unfathomable benefit in being groomed by
a living saint to be his/her successor, and have that successorship clearly
stated and understood. Among other things - and perhaps this is the most
important thing - it is a tremendous check on the possibility of spiritual
vanity and egotism sneaking in and leading to unbalanced thinking and
proclaimations, which is a major detriment to being a clear, harmonious
instrument for the Lord's expression.
Again, I congratulate you on your ability to provide this lesson for Mr. Turner.
Sri Brahman-Atmananda Paramahansa
<the_admi...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Accept my pronams Paramahamsa Ji, I'm an admirer.
>
>It saddens me that many of our western brothers bought Mr. Shiv
Dayal
>Singh's fantastic claims right away. You are correct he was
neither a
>swami nor a Sikh guru, just some lunatic cult leader.
Thank you Dr. Singh. AUM TAT SAT!
sh...@my-deja.com
"R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> sh...@my-deja.com [Michael Martin] wrote to G. Michael Turner:
>
> > say that you have an association with Sant Mat.
>
> initiation from representatives of Thakar Singh, a Sant Mat Guru.
>
> So, yes, Turner was initiated into Eckankar, ATOM, and Sant Mat.
> He left Eckankar, and ATOM, but continues to practice Sant Mat.
>
> I'm sorry, Mr. Martin, he's one of yours now, but you're doing an excellent job of
> special mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed master."
I didn't instruct him that, at all, Mr. Pickett. He had already hung out his
"shingle," before I had any karma with him.
>
> ***************************************
> Question to Turner:
> You make extravagant claims on the unity between Eckankar and Sant Mat that are not
> shared by Paul Twitchell, Harold Klemp or Darwin Gross. Have you ever been initiated by
> a Sant Mat guru?
>
> Turner's Answer:
> A few years back (I think it was 1994 or 95 - I really forget which, but definitely
> after I started teaching), a couple of Thakar Singh's representatives were in town
> offering a free talk on Sant Mat. Being as how I like checking out all of the other
> groups offering Light and Sound instruction, I decided to go take a gander and see what
> they had to say.
>
> After the first half of the meeting there was a break, after which they were offering
> initiation to any interested parties. I was planning on leaving at that point, when I
> received an inner nudge to hang out for the second half.
>
> I thought about it and decided it would be one way of doing my part help pay off at
> least a portion of Paul Twitchell's karma to Kirpal Singh. So I stayed, sat through
> the instructions and had a very nice inner experience with Sant Kirpal Ji in the
> process.
>
Well, it seems that he was initiated by Thakar Singh Ji, but it was after he
was already teaching. He has always praised Mr. Darwin Gross, and many of
his teachings seem to me, to be similar to those of Eckankar.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
> http://members.tripod.com/Oasis_Committee/oasis/turner.htm#TOP
>
> rfp
> --
> The opinions expressed here are those of the writer and not necessarily
> those of ECKANKAR or the Living ECK Master, Sri Harold Klemp.
>
gck...@my-deja.com
You are a sick little fart.
See a doctor.
sh...@my-deja.com
"R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
>
>
> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <38FB349F...@naxs.com>,
> > "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > > sh...@my-deja.com [Michael Martin] wrote to G. Michael Turner:
> > >
> > > > say that you have an association with Sant Mat.
> > >
> > >
> > > So, yes, Turner was initiated into Eckankar, ATOM, and Sant Mat.
> > > He left Eckankar, and ATOM, but continues to practice Sant Mat.
> > >
> > > I'm sorry, Mr. Martin, he's one of yours now, but you're doing an excellent job of
> > > special mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed > > master."
> >
> > I didn't instruct him that, at all, Mr. Pickett. He had already hung out his
> > "shingle," before I had any karma with him.
>
>
> G. Michael Turner - Sat Guru Emeritus to Michael Martin- Sat Guru for the Western
> World:
>
> even if you are inspired and feel that God has chosen you for a special
> mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed master.
> Even though it is ultimately God and Naam that doing the selecting of their
> instruments of expression, there is unfathomable benefit in being groomed by
> a living saint to be his/her successor, and have that successorship clearly
> stated and understood.
Yes, I can agree with that. The key word is "successorship." Sometimes,
Anami Purush wants Sant Mat spread to other places. This is what happened
with Baba Ji Maharaj. He had to start from scratch, so to say. It was the
Lord's will. He does work in mysterious ways, sometimes. He was not the
"famous" successor, as was Rai Saligram Ji Maharaj. He was just a retired
soldier teaching Sant Mat, while living in caves by the Beas River.
Nevertheless, Baba Ji Maharaj initiated some 2,400 souls during his lifetime,
and Sant Mat has spread far and wide by the work of his successors at Beas.
> Among other things - and perhaps this is the most
> important thing - it is a tremendous check on the possibility of spiritual
> vanity and egotism sneaking in and leading to unbalanced thinking and
> proclaimations, which is a major detriment to being a clear, harmonious
> instrument for the Lord's expression.
I don't agree with that at all. Only a False Guru would have "unbalanced
thinking." If a person is a False Guru, then he shouldn't be teaching Sant
Mat, in the first place. True Saints don't have vanity or ego.
>
> Again, I congratulate you on your ability to provide this lesson for Mr. Turner.
He has retired. I have not. Why didn't he follow my example, if he is
learning from me? I mean, this is ridiculous.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
>
> rfp
> --
> The opinions expressed here are those of the writer and not necessarily
> those of ECKANKAR or the Living ECK Master, Sri Harold Klemp.
>
sh...@my-deja.com
"R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <38FBD3C2...@naxs.com>,
> > "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
<snip>
> > > Ah, you may not claim to have instructed him, but he claims to have learned from you.
> > >
> > > G. Michael Turner - Sat Guru Emeritus to Michael Martin- Sat Guru for the Western
> > > World:
> > >
> > > I will say I have learned a lot from you. One thing I've learned is that,
> > > even if you are inspired and feel that God has chosen you for a special
> > > mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed master.
> > > Even though it is ultimately God and Naam that doing the selecting of their
> > > instruments of expression, there is unfathomable benefit in being groomed by
> > > a living saint to be his/her successor, and have that successorship clearly
> > > stated and understood.
> >
> > Yes, I can agree with that. The key word is "successorship." Sometimes,
> > Anami Purush wants Sant Mat spread to other places. This is what happened
> > with Baba Ji Maharaj. He had to start from scratch, so to say. It was the
> > Lord's will. He does work in mysterious ways, sometimes. He was not the
> > "famous" successor, as was Rai Saligram Ji Maharaj. He was just a retired
> > soldier teaching Sant Mat, while living in caves by the Beas River.
> >
> > Nevertheless, Baba Ji Maharaj initiated some 2,400 souls during his lifetime,
> > and Sant Mat has spread far and wide by the work of his successors at Beas.
>
> Who groomed you as their successor?
>
Maharaj Charan Singh Ji groomed me as a Mystic Adept. Anami Purush has
appointed me to carry on the same work, that he was doing in the Western
Hemisphere. Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji was clearly appointed to be the
successor for Radha Soami Satsang Beas by Maharaj Ji's will.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
> SNIP
>
> rfp
> --
> The opinions expressed here are those of the writer and not necessarily
> those of ECKANKAR or the Living ECK Master, Sri Harold Klemp.
>
Bruce Morgen
>
><sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8dgn71$dq0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> In article <38FBD3C2...@naxs.com>,
>> "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > Again, I congratulate you on your ability to provide this lesson for Mr.
>Turner.
>>
>> He has retired. I have not. Why didn't he follow my example, if he is
>> learning from me? I mean, this is ridiculous.
>
>Ah... I love the dull clunk of irony hitting the floor, and especially where
>the person on whose toes it has landed seems completely obvilious to the
>notion <G>?
>
Yes, sometimes earnest
cluelessness is downright
transcendant, not to
mention hilarious.
>Love
>
>Michael (Not Martin)
>
Same to you, sir!
sh...@my-deja.com
edi...@juno.com wrote:
> "Michael Wallace" <wall...@one.net.au> wrote:
>
> >
> ><sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8dgn71$dq0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >> In article <38FBD3C2...@naxs.com>,
> >> "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > Again, I congratulate you on your ability to provide this lesson for Mr.
> >Turner.
> >>
> >> He has retired. I have not. Why didn't he follow my example, if he is
> >> learning from me? I mean, this is ridiculous.
> >
> >Ah... I love the dull clunk of irony hitting the floor, and especially where
> >the person on whose toes it has landed seems completely obvilious to the
> >notion <G>?
It is obvious what is going on here. I'm trying to point out
inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to what is going on, here?
If somebody gives up a Guruship, then don't blame me for it. I had nothing
to do with the birth of it, nor the death of it.
Are you oblivious to that?
> >
> Yes, sometimes earnest
> cluelessness is downright
> transcendant, not to
> mention hilarious.
I just pointed out above, that it is quite clear what is going on, Bruce.
You completely ignore the inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to them? I am
being framed, and you completely ignore that.
I hope the readers can clearly notice the conspiracy, here. I think I have
pointed it out, now.
I would submit, that Mr. Turner learned from his own experiences. That's MHO.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
>
> >Love
> >
> >Michael (Not Martin)
> >
> Same to you, sir!
>
> __________________________________________________
> http://come.to/realization
> http://www.atman.net/realization
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>
Bruce Morgen
>In article <ld0pfssantcvfjc6k...@4ax.com>,
> edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> "Michael Wallace" <wall...@one.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> ><sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8dgn71$dq0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> >> In article <38FBD3C2...@naxs.com>,
>> >> "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > Again, I congratulate you on your ability to provide this lesson for Mr.
>> >Turner.
>> >>
>> >> He has retired. I have not. Why didn't he follow my example, if he is
>> >> learning from me? I mean, this is ridiculous.
>> >
>> >Ah... I love the dull clunk of irony hitting the floor, and especially where
>> >the person on whose toes it has landed seems completely obvilious to the
>> >notion <G>?
>
>It is obvious what is going on here. I'm trying to point out
>inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to what is going on, here?
>
>If somebody gives up a Guruship, then don't blame me for it. I had nothing
>to do with the birth of it, nor the death of it.
>
>Are you oblivious to that?
>> >
>> Yes, sometimes earnest
>> cluelessness is downright
>> transcendant, not to
>> mention hilarious.
>
>I just pointed out above, that it is quite clear what is going on, Bruce.
You don't get the irony in
Richard's connecting you
and Sri GMji. For someone
with at-will access to
divine omniscience, you're
astonishingly clueless as
to what's going on here.
Please do catch on soon,
or I suspect I may get
stuck with explaining the
whole scenario to you.
>You completely ignore the inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to them? I am
>being framed, and you completely ignore that.
You are one silly sod,
Michaelji -- know that I
do love you!
>
>I hope the readers can clearly notice the conspiracy, here. I think I have
>pointed it out, now.
I suspect the key to
avoiding further self-
satire is in rereading the
thread, particularly the
the satirical thrust of
Richard's post crediting
you with teaching Sri GMji.
>
>I would submit, that Mr. Turner learned from his own experiences. That's MHO.
I'm sure that's true --
suffice to say that among
those experiences was
reading much of the Usenet
output of one Michael
Martin. That's as much of
a clue as you'll get from
here today.
Much love -- Bruce
sh...@my-deja.com
edi...@juno.com wrote:
> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >In article <ld0pfssantcvfjc6k...@4ax.com>,
> > edi...@juno.com wrote:
> >> "Michael Wallace" <wall...@one.net.au> wrote:
<snip>
> >It is obvious what is going on here. I'm trying to point out
> >inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to what is going on, here?
> >
> >If somebody gives up a Guruship, then don't blame me for it. I had nothing
> >to do with the birth of it, nor the death of it.
> >
> >Are you oblivious to that?
> >> Yes, sometimes earnest
> >> cluelessness is downright
> >> transcendant, not to
> >> mention hilarious.
> >
> >I just pointed out above, that it is quite clear what is going on, Bruce.
>
> You don't get the irony in
> Richard's connecting you
> and Sri GMji.
Your allegation is wrong, as usual. It seems obvious what Mr. Pickett is
doing. He seems interested in the Eckankar agenda. It is obvious, he has
little interests in my own agenda. Michael Wallace has his agenda. He is
another Eckist, I do believe. Bruce Morgen has his own agenda. I've
mentioned a conspiracy here, did you get that, Bruce, or were you
intentionally oblivious to it?
> For someone
> with at-will access to
> divine omniscience, you're
> astonishingly clueless as
> to what's going on here.
Your allegation is wrong. I just pointed out above. It is very clear.
Wallace, Pickett, and Morgen, are looking out for their own agendas, not
Michael Martin's agenda. I am very aware of that.
You are clueless, Bruce, if you think I don't have a clue as to what this
conspiracy is up to. I have pointed out the fallacies of this conspiracy,
but the conspirators do not want to deal with that. They have their own
agendas.
> Please do catch on soon,
> or I suspect I may get
> stuck with explaining the
> whole scenario to you.
You are the one who needs to catch on, Bruce. This cutting and slashing by
three parties with their own agendas, will not bring the Western Sat Guru
down.
> >You completely ignore the inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to them? I am
> >being framed, and you completely ignore that.
>
> You are one silly sod,
> Michaelji -- know that I
> do love you!
Do you think, I'm going to believe that? You are loving your own agenda, Mr.
Morgen. It is quite clear.
> >I hope the readers can clearly notice the conspiracy, here. I think I have
> >pointed it out, now.
>
> I suspect the key to
> avoiding further self-
> satire is in rereading the
> thread, particularly the
> the satirical thrust of
> Richard's post crediting
> you with teaching Sri GMji.
I realized what was happening from the beginning. Jealousy leads to
mudslinging. I just pointed that out the other day. I wish some people
would learn that lesson. Mudslinging is a sign of lack of spirituality.
I'll say this. It is TOO BAD for you guys' respective agendas, but I'm still
giving the Sant Mat teachings.
> >
> >I would submit, that Mr. Turner learned from his own experiences. That's MHO.
>
> I'm sure that's true --
> suffice to say that among
> those experiences was
> reading much of the Usenet
> output of one Michael
> Martin.
I don't think that will suffice, Mr. Morgen. I am not going into "why" Mr.
Turner resigned. Even he has avoided clarifying that.
Mr. Turner has resigned. Mr. Morgen, well, I won't paste the label on you,
that Paramahansaji gave you, but you have been recommending to seekers to go
to Mr. Turner to learn Sant Mat. I'm glad that it is now clear, how much
your recommendation was worth.
It is clear how important your agenda is to you, Mr. Morgen. It is clear to
what lengths you will go to promote it.
> That's as much of
> a clue as you'll get from
> here today.
>
> Much love -- Bruce
I don't need a clue to know what your game is, Mr. Morgen.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
<snip>
>
> __________________________________________________
> http://come.to/realization
> http://www.atman.net/realization
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>
R.F. Pickett
sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <38FBE51B...@naxs.com>,
> "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <38FBD3C2...@naxs.com>,
> > > "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > > Ah, you may not claim to have instructed him, but he claims to have learned from you.
> > > >
> > > > G. Michael Turner - Sat Guru Emeritus to Michael Martin- Sat Guru for the Western
> > > > World:
> > > >
> > > > I will say I have learned a lot from you. One thing I've learned is that,
> > > > even if you are inspired and feel that God has chosen you for a special
> > > > mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed master.
> > > > Even though it is ultimately God and Naam that doing the selecting of their
> > > > instruments of expression, there is unfathomable benefit in being groomed by
> > > > a living saint to be his/her successor, and have that successorship clearly
> > > > stated and understood.
> > >
> > > Yes, I can agree with that. The key word is "successorship." Sometimes,
> > > Anami Purush wants Sant Mat spread to other places. This is what happened
> > > with Baba Ji Maharaj. He had to start from scratch, so to say. It was the
> > > Lord's will. He does work in mysterious ways, sometimes. He was not the
> > > "famous" successor, as was Rai Saligram Ji Maharaj. He was just a retired
> > > soldier teaching Sant Mat, while living in caves by the Beas River.
> > >
> > > Nevertheless, Baba Ji Maharaj initiated some 2,400 souls during his lifetime,
> > > and Sant Mat has spread far and wide by the work of his successors at Beas.
> >
> > Who groomed you as their successor?
> >
>
> Maharaj Charan Singh Ji groomed me as a Mystic Adept. Anami Purush has
> appointed me to carry on the same work, that he was doing in the Western
> Hemisphere. Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji was clearly appointed to be the
> successor for Radha Soami Satsang Beas by Maharaj Ji's will.
In other words, you are self-appointed?
Bruce Morgen
>In article <0n8pfs0qttjes2khs...@4ax.com>,
> edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >In article <ld0pfssantcvfjc6k...@4ax.com>,
>> > edi...@juno.com wrote:
>> >> "Michael Wallace" <wall...@one.net.au> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> >It is obvious what is going on here. I'm trying to point out
>> >inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to what is going on, here?
>> >
>> >If somebody gives up a Guruship, then don't blame me for it. I had nothing
>> >to do with the birth of it, nor the death of it.
>> >
>> >Are you oblivious to that?
>
>> >> Yes, sometimes earnest
>> >> cluelessness is downright
>> >> transcendant, not to
>> >> mention hilarious.
>> >
>> >I just pointed out above, that it is quite clear what is going on, Bruce.
>>
>> You don't get the irony in
>> Richard's connecting you
>> and Sri GMji.
>
>Your allegation is wrong, as usual. It seems obvious what Mr. Pickett is
>doing. He seems interested in the Eckankar agenda. It is obvious, he has
>little interests in my own agenda. Michael Wallace has his agenda. He is
>another Eckist, I do believe. Bruce Morgen has his own agenda. I've
>mentioned a conspiracy here, did you get that, Bruce, or were you
>intentionally oblivious to it?
There is no "conspiracy"
involving yours truly, but
there's really quite an
exquisite irony that you
obviously don't see. I'm
aware of Richard's
Eckankar orthodoxy, and I
agree that he has little
interest (I'd say none at
all) in your agenda. I
know little of Mr. Wallace
except that he is having
fun with your incredible
obtuseness, as I am.
>
>> For someone
>> with at-will access to
>> divine omniscience, you're
>> astonishingly clueless as
>> to what's going on here.
>
>Your allegation is wrong. I just pointed out above. It is very clear.
>Wallace, Pickett, and Morgen, are looking out for their own agendas, not
>Michael Martin's agenda. I am very aware of that.
You're still utterly
clueless about what's
going on in this thread.
>
>You are clueless, Bruce, if you think I don't have a clue as to what this
>conspiracy is up to. I have pointed out the fallacies of this conspiracy,
>but the conspirators do not want to deal with that. They have their own
>agendas.
ROTFLMAO!
>
>> Please do catch on soon,
>> or I suspect I may get
>> stuck with explaining the
>> whole scenario to you.
>
>You are the one who needs to catch on, Bruce. This cutting and slashing by
>three parties with their own agendas, will not bring the Western Sat Guru
>down.
No, the fellow calling
himself "the Western Sat
Guru" is doing that
astonishingly well all by
himself.
>
>> >You completely ignore the inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to them? I am
>> >being framed, and you completely ignore that.
>>
>> You are one silly sod,
>> Michaelji -- know that I
>> do love you!
>
>Do you think, I'm going to believe that? You are loving your own agenda, Mr.
>Morgen. It is quite clear.
I think we can add paranoia
to the list of possible
mental disorders afflicting
you, Michaelji, I can
hardly breath for laughing.
>
>> >I hope the readers can clearly notice the conspiracy, here. I think I have
>> >pointed it out, now.
>>
>> I suspect the key to
>> avoiding further self-
>> satire is in rereading the
>> thread, particularly the
>> the satirical thrust of
>> Richard's post crediting
>> you with teaching Sri GMji.
>
>I realized what was happening from the beginning. Jealousy leads to
>mudslinging. I just pointed that out the other day. I wish some people
>would learn that lesson. Mudslinging is a sign of lack of spirituality.
Now this is getting serious,
I'm going to need oxygen if
this keeps up....
>
>I'll say this. It is TOO BAD for you guys' respective agendas, but I'm still
>giving the Sant Mat teachings.
>
Oh, by all mean have at it,
Michaelji -- what would we
do without your "giving?"
>> >
>> >I would submit, that Mr. Turner learned from his own experiences. That's MHO.
>>
>> I'm sure that's true --
>> suffice to say that among
>> those experiences was
>> reading much of the Usenet
>> output of one Michael
>> Martin.
>
>I don't think that will suffice, Mr. Morgen. I am not going into "why" Mr.
>Turner resigned. Even he has avoided clarifying that.
This is amazing, don't stop
now -- this laughter is
approaching the orgasmic!
>
>Mr. Turner has resigned. Mr. Morgen, well, I won't paste the label on you,
>that Paramahansaji gave you, but you have been recommending to seekers to go
>to Mr. Turner to learn Sant Mat. I'm glad that it is now clear, how much
>your recommendation was worth.
That's OK, I still recommend
Sri GMji as a source of
information about Sant Mat,
even though he no longer
gives initiation.
>
>It is clear how important your agenda is to you, Mr. Morgen. It is clear to
>what lengths you will go to promote it.
What'd I do other than
fully understand the gist
of Richard's post?
Whatever "lengths" are you
raging over?
>
>> That's as much of
>> a clue as you'll get from
>> here today.
>>
>> Much love -- Bruce
>
>I don't need a clue to know what your game is, Mr. Morgen.
>
Oh, Michaelji, it isn't my
"game," never has been, I'm
just a richly amused
observer.
Much love -- Bruce
R.F. Pickett
> I would submit, that Mr. Turner learned from his own experiences. That's MHO.
Mr. Turner attributes his lessons to you. Apprently, you differ in opinion from Mr.
Turner, but it wouldn't be the first time that you and Mr. Turner have disagreed.
R.F. Pickett
self-appointed mastership. I merely repeated it and congratulated Mr. Martin on his
successful tutelage of Mr. Turner.
Bruce Morgen wrote:
>
> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >In article <ld0pfssantcvfjc6k...@4ax.com>,
> > edi...@juno.com wrote:
> >> "Michael Wallace" <wall...@one.net.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> ><sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8dgn71$dq0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >> >> In article <38FBD3C2...@naxs.com>,
> >> >> "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > Again, I congratulate you on your ability to provide this lesson for Mr.
> >> >Turner.
> >> >>
> >> >> He has retired. I have not. Why didn't he follow my example, if he is
> >> >> learning from me? I mean, this is ridiculous.
> >> >
> >> >Ah... I love the dull clunk of irony hitting the floor, and especially where
> >> >the person on whose toes it has landed seems completely obvilious to the
> >> >notion <G>?
> >
> >It is obvious what is going on here. I'm trying to point out
> >inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to what is going on, here?
> >
> >If somebody gives up a Guruship, then don't blame me for it. I had nothing
> >to do with the birth of it, nor the death of it.
> >
> >Are you oblivious to that?
> >> >
> >> Yes, sometimes earnest
> >> cluelessness is downright
> >> transcendant, not to
> >> mention hilarious.
> >
> >I just pointed out above, that it is quite clear what is going on, Bruce.
>
> You don't get the irony in
> Richard's connecting you
> and Sri GMji. For someone
> with at-will access to
> divine omniscience, you're
> astonishingly clueless as
> to what's going on here.
> Please do catch on soon,
> or I suspect I may get
> stuck with explaining the
> whole scenario to you.
>
> >You completely ignore the inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to them? I am
> >being framed, and you completely ignore that.
>
> You are one silly sod,
> Michaelji -- know that I
> do love you!
> >
> >I hope the readers can clearly notice the conspiracy, here. I think I have
> >pointed it out, now.
>
> I suspect the key to
> avoiding further self-
> satire is in rereading the
> thread, particularly the
> the satirical thrust of
> Richard's post crediting
> you with teaching Sri GMji.
> >
> >I would submit, that Mr. Turner learned from his own experiences. That's MHO.
>
> I'm sure that's true --
> suffice to say that among
> those experiences was
> reading much of the Usenet
> output of one Michael
> Martin. That's as much of
> a clue as you'll get from
> here today.
>
> Much love -- Bruce
>
> >
> >Michael Martin
> >http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
> >
> >>
> >> >Love
> >> >
> >> >Michael (Not Martin)
> >> >
> >> Same to you, sir!
>
> __________________________________________________
> http://come.to/realization
> http://www.atman.net/realization
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
--
Michael Wallace
<sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8dgn71$dq0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <38FBD3C2...@naxs.com>,
> "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > >
> > Again, I congratulate you on your ability to provide this lesson for Mr.
Turner.
>
> He has retired. I have not. Why didn't he follow my example, if he is
> learning from me? I mean, this is ridiculous.
Ah... I love the dull clunk of irony hitting the floor, and especially where
the person on whose toes it has landed seems completely obvilious to the
notion <G>?
Love
Michael (Not Martin)
sh...@my-deja.com
> > "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > > sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <38FBD3C2...@naxs.com>,
> > > > "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > > Ah, you may not claim to have instructed him, but he claims to have learned from you.
> > > > >
> > > > > G. Michael Turner - Sat Guru Emeritus to Michael Martin- Sat Guru for the Western
> > > > > World:
> > > > >
> > > > > even if you are inspired and feel that God has chosen you for a special
> > > > > mission, it is *very precarious* to set up shop as a self-proclaimed master.
> > > > > Even though it is ultimately God and Naam that doing the selecting of their
> > > > > instruments of expression, there is unfathomable benefit in being groomed by
> > > > > a living saint to be his/her successor, and have that successorship clearly
> > > > > stated and understood.
> > > >
> > > > Anami Purush wants Sant Mat spread to other places. This is what happened
> > > > with Baba Ji Maharaj. He had to start from scratch, so to say. It was the
> > > > Lord's will. He does work in mysterious ways, sometimes. He was not the
> > > > "famous" successor, as was Rai Saligram Ji Maharaj. He was just a retired
> > > > soldier teaching Sant Mat, while living in caves by the Beas River.
> > > >
> > > > Nevertheless, Baba Ji Maharaj initiated some 2,400 souls during his lifetime,
> > > > and Sant Mat has spread far and wide by the work of his successors at Beas.
> > >
> > > Who groomed you as their successor?
> > >
> >
> > Maharaj Charan Singh Ji groomed me as a Mystic Adept. Anami Purush has
> > appointed me to carry on the same work, that he was doing in the Western
> > Hemisphere. Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji was clearly appointed to be the
> > successor for Radha Soami Satsang Beas by Maharaj Ji's will.
>
> In other words, you are self-appointed?
>
> rfp
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
> --
> The opinions expressed here are those of the writer and not necessarily
> those of ECKANKAR or the Living ECK Master, Sri Harold Klemp.
>
sh...@my-deja.com
"R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> It was Mr. Turner that offered the claim that Mr. Martin tutored him on the meaning of
> self-appointed mastership. I merely repeated it and congratulated Mr. Martin on his
> successful tutelage of Mr. Turner.
What have I tutored him? He is following his own path, not my path. I am
not retired.
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
>
> Bruce Morgen wrote:
> >
> > sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > >In article <ld0pfssantcvfjc6k...@4ax.com>,
> > > edi...@juno.com wrote:
<snip>
> > >It is obvious what is going on here. I'm trying to point out
> > >inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to what is going on, here?
> > >
> > >If somebody gives up a Guruship, then don't blame me for it. I had nothing
> > >to do with the birth of it, nor the death of it.
> > >
> > >Are you oblivious to that?
<snip>
<snip>
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > http://come.to/realization
> > http://www.atman.net/realization
> > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>
> --
> The opinions expressed here are those of the writer and not necessarily
> those of ECKANKAR or the Living ECK Master, Sri Harold Klemp.
>
Michael Wallace
Bruce Morgen <edi...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:0n8pfs0qttjes2khs...@4ax.com...
> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >> >Ah... I love the dull clunk of irony hitting the floor, and especially
where
> >> >the person on whose toes it has landed seems completely obvilious to
the
> >> >notion <G>?
> >
> >It is obvious what is going on here. I'm trying to point out
> >inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to what is going on, here?
> >
> >If somebody gives up a Guruship, then don't blame me for it. I had
nothing
> >to do with the birth of it, nor the death of it.
> >
> >Are you oblivious to that?
> >> >
> >> Yes, sometimes earnest
> >> cluelessness is downright
> >> transcendant, not to
> >> mention hilarious.
Got to say Bruce...
So horribly true... <G>
> >
> >I just pointed out above, that it is quite clear what is going on, Bruce.
>
> You don't get the irony in
> Richard's connecting you
> and Sri GMji. For someone
> with at-will access to
> divine omniscience, you're
> astonishingly clueless as
> to what's going on here.
> Please do catch on soon,
> or I suspect I may get
> stuck with explaining the
> whole scenario to you.
Divine Omniscience was short on Irony the Day Naam appointed Michael-ji it
seems <G>
I could not believe this thread... A friend pointed it out as a matter of
sheer absurdity, and mentioned alt.mediation.shadba could make our little
a.r.e. look like a cakewalk some days...
Is that true guys??
>
> >You completely ignore the inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to them? I
am
> >being framed, and you completely ignore that.
>
> You are one silly sod,
> Michaelji -- know that I
> do love you!
Sort of cute... Somehow I just don't quite get the notion of a high
spiritual master debating this topic ... But maybe I need a "ji" after my
name to elevate me to an understanding of this <G>
> >
> >I hope the readers can clearly notice the conspiracy, here. I think I
have
> >pointed it out, now.
Conspiracy?
Next we will, no doubt, have the world order and the CIA involved??
>
> >> >Love
> >> >
> >> >Michael (Not Martin)
> >> >
> >> Same to you, sir!
What... The Love... or the (Not Martin)?
This could be a form of dimishing the personality for a person named Martin
to refer to themselves as "no Longer Martin" and perhaps is a contemplation
to consider... amelioration of the lower self as opposed to the
determination or the opposing extinction of self?? <G>
Love
Michael W
Michael Wallace
<sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8diufc$tl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <38FCDD71...@naxs.com>,
> "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Maharaj Charan Singh Ji groomed me as a Mystic Adept. Anami Purush
has
> > > appointed me to carry on the same work, that he was doing in the
Western
> > > Hemisphere. Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji was clearly appointed to be the
> > > successor for Radha Soami Satsang Beas by Maharaj Ji's will.
> >
> > In other words, you are self-appointed?
> >
> Mr. Pickett, I already wrote very clearly above, who appointed me.
>
Yeah...
God
Sort of hard to argue with that, hey <G>
Love
Michael
Michael Wallace
I guess "Fun" wasn't on the agenda of God Consciousness School when Sri
Martin qualified <G>
Obtuse was Michael's major, apparently <VBG>
> >
> >> For someone
> >> with at-will access to
> >> divine omniscience, you're
> >> astonishingly clueless as
> >> to what's going on here.
> >
> >Your allegation is wrong. I just pointed out above. It is very clear.
> >Wallace, Pickett, and Morgen, are looking out for their own agendas, not
> >Michael Martin's agenda. I am very aware of that.
>
> You're still utterly
> clueless about what's
> going on in this thread.
> >
> >You are clueless, Bruce, if you think I don't have a clue as to what this
> >conspiracy is up to. I have pointed out the fallacies of this
conspiracy,
> >but the conspirators do not want to deal with that. They have their own
> >agendas.
>
> ROTFLMAO!
Et tu Bruti?
Next all we need is Daniel Min and Rob McElwaine to contribute...
Clueless was a really bad movie, wasn't it? Or was it cheesey... Like this
thread? Maybe THIS is the secret God Consciousness reason we are being so
devoted to this dialogue with the Master Michael Martin.
Jeez... Won't "I" be in deep when I get to the Pearly Gates and find him
there with Michael Turner... Waving their collective God Conscious fingers
at me.... <G>
> >
> >> Please do catch on soon,
> >> or I suspect I may get
> >> stuck with explaining the
> >> whole scenario to you.
> >
> >You are the one who needs to catch on, Bruce. This cutting and slashing
by
> >three parties with their own agendas, will not bring the Western Sat Guru
> >down.
>
> No, the fellow calling
> himself "the Western Sat
> Guru" is doing that
> astonishingly well all by
> himself.
Agreed... Amazing...
God Conscious and oblivious all at the same time <G> I love it... And want
to invite him around for a drink of Chartreuse... Which of course he will
not take, thus I will save my self money as well!
God (Or Michael M... Whatever you prefer) Life is Good some days!
> >
> >> >You completely ignore the inconsistencies. Are you oblivious to them?
I am
> >> >being framed, and you completely ignore that.
> >>
> >> You are one silly sod,
> >> Michaelji -- know that I
> >> do love you!
> >
> >Do you think, I'm going to believe that? You are loving your own agenda,
Mr.
> >Morgen. It is quite clear.
>
> I think we can add paranoia
> to the list of possible
> mental disorders afflicting
> you, Michaelji, I can
> hardly breath for laughing.
Paranoid dysfunctional aberant self congratulatory notions that you are
appointed by God which we ALL know is COMPLETELY false... Because after
all... God would hardly have appointed BOTH of us <G>
> >
> >> >I hope the readers can clearly notice the conspiracy, here. I think I
have
> >> >pointed it out, now.
> >>
> >> I suspect the key to
> >> avoiding further self-
> >> satire is in rereading the
> >> thread, particularly the
> >> the satirical thrust of
> >> Richard's post crediting
> >> you with teaching Sri GMji.
> >
> >I realized what was happening from the beginning. Jealousy leads to
> >mudslinging. I just pointed that out the other day. I wish some people
> >would learn that lesson. Mudslinging is a sign of lack of spirituality.
>
> Now this is getting serious,
> I'm going to need oxygen if
> this keeps up....
Jealousy!
This is tooooooo wonderful...
ROFL
> >
> >I'll say this. It is TOO BAD for you guys' respective agendas, but I'm
still
> >giving the Sant Mat teachings.
> >
> Oh, by all mean have at it,
> Michaelji -- what would we
> do without your "giving?"
We would be having a lot less fun, that's for sure <G>
> >> >
> >> >I would submit, that Mr. Turner learned from his own experiences.
That's MHO.
> >>
> >> I'm sure that's true --
> >> suffice to say that among
> >> those experiences was
> >> reading much of the Usenet
> >> output of one Michael
> >> Martin.
> >
> >I don't think that will suffice, Mr. Morgen. I am not going into "why"
Mr.
> >Turner resigned. Even he has avoided clarifying that.
>
> This is amazing, don't stop
> now -- this laughter is
> approaching the orgasmic!
He decided he wasn't up to the Guru status he believed himself to be, and
went for Gurinder (Or whoever) didn't he?
I liked Michael Turner, however, and he was far less pompous in his
claims... God Conscious and Master... we know that... But never Agendas,
jealousy and conspiracies... This thread is tooo perfect ...
> >
> >Mr. Turner has resigned. Mr. Morgen, well, I won't paste the label on
you,
> >that Paramahansaji gave you, but you have been recommending to seekers to
go
> >to Mr. Turner to learn Sant Mat. I'm glad that it is now clear, how much
> >your recommendation was worth.
>
> That's OK, I still recommend
> Sri GMji as a source of
> information about Sant Mat,
> even though he no longer
> gives initiation.
How can you "resign" from being a self appointed Master?
I thought it was, a ...well... You know... more or less permanent aberation?
> >
> >It is clear how important your agenda is to you, Mr. Morgen. It is clear
to
> >what lengths you will go to promote it.
>
> What'd I do other than
> fully understand the gist
> of Richard's post?
> Whatever "lengths" are you
> raging over?
The one he plays with as he writes?
That is... Enough string to hang himself, of course... How could you have
thought I meant anything else <G>
> >
> >> That's as much of
> >> a clue as you'll get from
> >> here today.
> >>
> >> Much love -- Bruce
> >
> >I don't need a clue to know what your game is, Mr. Morgen.
> >
> Oh, Michaelji, it isn't my
> "game," never has been, I'm
> just a richly amused
> observer.
>
> Much love -- Bruce
I agree...
The irony is so profound it is deafening in the sound of silence echoing in
poor Michael Martin's lack of comprehantion with it... But I wish him the
very best in his crusade...
Nice ride... Pleasure meeting you Bruce...
Love
Michael
Michael Wallace
<sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8divfe$ul0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <38FCDF45...@naxs.com>,
> "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > It was Mr. Turner that offered the claim that Mr. Martin tutored him on
the meaning of
> > self-appointed mastership. I merely repeated it and congratulated Mr.
Martin on his
> > successful tutelage of Mr. Turner.
>
> What have I tutored him? He is following his own path, not my path. I am
> not retired.
I would have thought this post was perfectly tongue in cheek, only I know
Michael M isn't very good at that <G>
One might say it is fairly "obvious" he hasn't "retired" <G>
Of course... That's just my 'agenda" <G>
Love
Michael
sh...@my-deja.com
"Michael Wallace" <wall...@one.net.au> wrote:
>
> <sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8divfe$ul0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <38FCDF45...@naxs.com>,
> > "R.F. Pickett" <rfpi...@naxs.com> wrote:
> > > It was Mr. Turner that offered the claim that Mr. Martin tutored him on
> the meaning of
> > > self-appointed mastership. I merely repeated it and congratulated Mr.
> Martin on his
> > > successful tutelage of Mr. Turner.
> >
> > What have I tutored him? He is following his own path, not my path. I am
> > not retired.
>
> I would have thought this post was perfectly tongue in cheek, only I know
> Michael M isn't very good at that <G>
>
A tongue in cheek won't help us at the time of death. Soami Ji Maharaj said
he had practiced Shabd Abhyas since he was six years old, and that we should
not forget it at the time of death. <BIG GRIN>
How good are you at Shabd Abhyas, oh one who knows what people are not good
at? <BIG GRIN>
> One might say it is fairly "obvious" he hasn't "retired" <G>
>
> Of course... That's just my 'agenda" <G>
I wonder if you grin, as much about Harold Klemp as you do about Michael
Turner and me? <BIG GRIN>
Maybe that would give us an better idea of what your AGENDA is? <BIG GRIN>
>
> Love
>
> Michael
Michael Martin
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru
G. Michael Turner
Peace,
Michael T.
G. Michael Turner
Michael Wallace
G. Michael Turner <m.tu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:nGnL4.13160$PV.8...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Marklar
Ralkarm?
Karma Ra?
>
>
Michael Wallace
<sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8dkbk8$eg7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Are you trying to be clever here Michael??
And as a curiousity... Are you sort of implying that old Christian belief
that "You will be sorry when you die" business? Rather sick of you, if this
is your contention.
Still... A genuine Master would probably have a slightly better grasp of
humour... Which it appears you don't quite have perfected yet. I am told the
Feminist Bookshop has one for sale at EBAY... Maybe you should put in a
bid??
Yes?
Shabd Abhyas? Sounds like the sound you make at the Dentist <G>
>
> > One might say it is fairly "obvious" he hasn't "retired" <G>
> >
> > Of course... That's just my 'agenda" <G>
>
> I wonder if you grin, as much about Harold Klemp as you do about Michael
> Turner and me? <BIG GRIN>
Now why would you suggest this? Oh.... I get it... You are trying to put
yourself on the plane of a True Master? Now that's where it all figures.
Actually... I have been pretty pointed with Sri Harold in the past
Michael... And guess what... It seems he has a sense of humour and a pretty
good grasp of English. Of course, these are not necessary qualifications for
Mastership... But maybe you really need to take a look over at EBAY ??
>
> Maybe that would give us an better idea of what your AGENDA is? <BIG GRIN>
Really Michael... This is simply another of your personal inventions... Like
the conspiracy... and the paranoia ... Remember?
But it is nice to see such a high spiritual Master such as yourself coming
down to the level of conversation with a mere mortal such as myself... I
think this is a real feather in your cap to be able to be so humble, and bow
so low as to attempt to be funny like this.
I congratulate you on the deep reverence with which you hold your self
appointed state.
Thank you oh great one for the crumbs you have thrown before me...
Grovellingly Yours
Michael (Not Martin)
Michael Wallace
> Thanks, Richard.
Just as a purely personal comment... It sounds/feels like you are finding a
deep contentment in this new phase of your life, Michael... I may be wrong,
but if I am right I offer you salutations and warmth, and if I am wrong... I
offer the same anyway.
Love
Michael