Los Angeles Evac Services Question

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Micbloo

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Aug 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/12/99
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Just wondering what is the protocol for air medical services in the Los
Angele area. On Tuesday we saw dramatic footage of LAFD Fire 2 flying in to the
scene of the horrendous shooting and doing a hot medevac of one of the child
victims. They flew him to Childrens Hospital. Later that evening the more
seriously shot child who had been rushed to Providence Holy Cross Medical
Center and underwent hours of surgery was then transferred to Childrens
Hospital by a copter from Mercy Air.
For this transfer why was the private service used instead of the public LAFD
copter?
What is the protocol for Mercy Air in relation to LAFD Air Support? Does Mercy
respond to on scene jobs as a primary responder or just back up? In fact, do
they even respond to on scene missions? Or are they just an inter-facilty
program?
Thank you.

Gerard

LeadVOCALZ

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Aug 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/12/99
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Micbloo: >For this transfer why was the private service used instead of the
public LAFD
>copter?

LAFD is strictly an emergency service provider and to my knowledge does not
perform post-trauma/surgery/, critical care or specialty transports.

Micbloo: >What is the protocol for Mercy Air in relation to LAFD Air Support?

Does
>Mercy
>respond to on scene jobs as a primary responder or just back up?

In LA City's jurisdiction, probably as a back up only. However in other areas,
such as San Bernardino and Riverside Counties, they are the primary air
ambulance provider.

In fact, do they even respond to on scene missions? Or are they just an
inter-facilty
>program?
>Thank you.

They do both in select areas.

Mark Lassman

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Aug 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/12/99
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City/County choppers would only be used to transport from the scene to a
hospital facility, and would not be used for hospital-to-hospital transfers.
The treating physician would recommend transfer to another facility if that
other facility would be better equipped to deal with the particular problem.
Sometimes, the patient's insurance requires the transfer to their contracted
facility and the helicopter may be the most practical means of getting
there. The HMO may have a contract with an air ambulance service, in this
case Mercy Air, based out of Rialto, I believe.

Mercy is quite busy out in the Riverside/San Bernardino County area due to
some of the great distances to cover at times. I haven't heard Mercy to come
in to Orange County too much unless its for a drop-off or transfer. In OC,
most hospitals are never more than a five or ten-minute ride by ground
ambulance so air transport is hardly ever used.

Mercy might be dispatched to the scene of a rural traffic accident since
they often could arrive on scene well before the ground units, in which case
they would be "primary" responders.

Don't know much about LAFD protocol, except they're not a taxi service
between hospitals.

Micbloo <mic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990812013359...@ng-bg1.aol.com...


>
> Just wondering what is the protocol for air medical services in the Los
> Angele area. On Tuesday we saw dramatic footage of LAFD Fire 2 flying in
to the
> scene of the horrendous shooting and doing a hot medevac of one of the
child
> victims. They flew him to Childrens Hospital. Later that evening the more
> seriously shot child who had been rushed to Providence Holy Cross Medical
> Center and underwent hours of surgery was then transferred to Childrens
> Hospital by a copter from Mercy Air.

> For this transfer why was the private service used instead of the public
LAFD
> copter?

> What is the protocol for Mercy Air in relation to LAFD Air Support? Does
Mercy

> respond to on scene jobs as a primary responder or just back up? In fact,


do
> they even respond to on scene missions? Or are they just an inter-facilty
> program?
> Thank you.
>

> Gerard


ec...@myems.net

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Aug 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/12/99
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Does anyone besides me wonder why fire departments that took over
EMS often wear turnout coats and fire helmets on routine EMS calls? If
there was a need for turnout gear and helmets on every EMS call,
wouldn't EMS providers have been wearing them before the fire department
decided to start doing EMS?

Steve & Susan

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Aug 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/12/99
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ec...@myems.net wrote:

> Does anyone besides me wonder why fire departments that took over
>EMS often wear turnout coats and fire helmets on routine EMS calls? If
>there was a need for turnout gear and helmets on every EMS call,
>wouldn't EMS providers have been wearing them before the fire department
>decided to start doing EMS?

In the late 70's/early 80's, I bought several pair of turnout gear in
different sizes for a *volunteer ambulance squad* in northern NJ. They
have been wearing real turnout gear (not imitation turnouts), for
their own safety, to everything that is not a medical call since.

So, what's the big deal with fire-based EMS? They ditched their
Dynamed Medi Jacs?

Steve
PPE makes sense to me


Brian Humphrey

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Aug 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/12/99
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Micbloo asked...

>What is the protocol for Mercy Air in relation to LAFD Air Support?

There is no "formal" relationship between the LAFD and Mercy Air. The
highly-skilled crews of the Los Angeles County Fire Department are by formal
agreement, the primary backup for the LAFD's Air Ambulance program.

Mercy Air is rightfully considered a commercial ambulance service. If it
would behoove the citizens we serve to request their assistance - or that of
any other commercial ambulance service, we would do so immediately at the
time of need.

>Does Mercy respond to on scene jobs as a primary responder or just back up?

That company does neither in Los Angeles.

>In fact, do
>they even respond to on scene missions? Or are they just an inter-facilty
>program?

We are told they have formal response programs to on-scene emergencies in
several Southern California counties.


Brian Humphrey
Firefighter/Paramedic
Public Information Officer
Los Angeles Fire Department

LAFD website: http://www.lafd.org

Brian Humphrey

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Aug 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/12/99
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In an apparent response to mention of a high-profile medical call in Los
Angeles,
ec...@myems.net wrote...

> Does anyone besides me wonder why fire departments that took over
>EMS often wear turnout coats and fire helmets on routine EMS calls? If
>there was a need for turnout gear and helmets on every EMS call,
>wouldn't EMS providers have been wearing them before the fire department
>decided to start doing EMS?


The use of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) in the firefighting arena has
always been stressed - and rightfully so. In light of the shooting you
mention, the Fire-based EMS crews mostly wore "Brush Jackets" to cover their
ballistic protection vests and helmets for similar reasons. They also
provide somewhat of a barrier for bloodborne pathogens. Mostly however, the
fire gear is worn prominently on shooting calls to differentiate us from
bystanders or the bad guys. Also, some crews had scrambled from the Stations
in exercise attire, and properly donned turnout pants and boots to make a
rapid response. This often happens at night as well.

As for routine calls, it depends upon the location and circumstances. Even
in this Technicolor world, sometimes it is best to ride into town on a tan
stallion wearing a white hat <grin>

>wouldn't EMS providers have been wearing them before the fire department
>decided to start doing EMS?

For the record - the LAFD has been doing the ambulance biz since 1927. So
have many Fire Departments, some long before the hearses from mortuaries
stopped carting patients unattended to hospitals. The use of PPE by
ambulance service EMS personnel has by nearly all accounts, been sadly
lacking in recent years. I can think of several commercial ambulance firms
that routinely have their polyester-clad crews stand at a distance from
minimally fire hazardous atmospheres - - at their firms insistence!

PPE works for all. Whether a turnout coat and helmet worn by a Firefighter
or a Star-of-Life adorned jumpsuit worn by a goggle clad EMT, there is no
reason to do anything but praise those who take care of themselves FIRST!

Stay Safe!

Brian

Brian Humphrey

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Aug 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/12/99
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LeadVOCALZ wrote...

>It is really inappropriate to use the term "taxi service" in reference to
Mercy
>Air,

I agree. As a frequernt taxi-rider, I can assure you that there is a
difference <grin>

>These flights are quite dangerous

They can be.

>and are only used in the most dire medical
>emergencies.

On that point, I'll have to (respectfully) disagree with you.

>As the primary air ambulance provider, Mercy Air is an invaluable resource
to
>our paramedics and patients out here in Riverside County.

You can certainly justify that statement with your personal experiences and
professional viewpoint.

>They really are a
>unique and innovative agency,

An opinion not shared by all, including many of their former employees. But
I will argue loudly that you are fully entitled to that opinion.

-brian-

LeadVOCALZ

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Aug 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/13/99
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Mark wrote: >Don't know much about LAFD protocol, except they're not a taxi
service
>between hospitals.

It is really inappropriate to use the term "taxi service" in reference to Mercy
Air, or any other air ambulance that performs interfacility transportation.
These flights are quite dangerous and are only used in the most dire medical
emergencies. They may not be bringing in an "ER episode" type of call with the
interfacility transport, but DEFINITIVE CARE is no less important than EMERGENT
CARE.

As the primary air ambulance provider, Mercy Air is an invaluable resource to

our paramedics and patients out here in Riverside County. They really are a
unique and innovative agency, as their paramedics and RN's routinely traverse
multiple County lines and deal with a myriad with protocol complexities and
interface with many different providers and agencies.

LeadVOCALZ

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Aug 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/13/99
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Ec...@myems.net wrote: > Does anyone besides me wonder why fire departments that

took over
>>EMS often wear turnout coats and fire helmets on routine EMS calls?

Hey Brian, you see I am not the only who wonders these things? That still
doesn't explain why you wear the items in question, after all, who would take a
shot at a PIO anyway?

Brain Humphrey: > Even


>in this Technicolor world, sometimes it is best to ride into town on a tan
>stallion wearing a white hat <grin>

Ah, the real reason surfaces.

Ken Koller

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Aug 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/13/99
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mic...@aol.com (Micbloo) writes:
> Or are they just an inter-facilty program?

Somewhat removed from LA City fire here...

Here in Ventura County, Mercy Air has just started operations based at Oxnard
Aiprort. Currently there is a discussion between the county higher-ups on who
would be able to provide better air-based primary 911 EMS response. Since time
began in Ventura County, the Sheriff's department and thier fleet of bright
yellow military surplus Huey helicopters have handled all 911 EMS responses, as
well as SAR, vertical rescue, firefighting, and surviellence flights. On
weekends they are fully staffed ALS helicopters, drawing paramedics from the
local private companies, mainly Ojai and Gold Coast, but still using 20+ year
old UH-1 helos.

Of late, Mercy has been pushing to become the primary response air-evac for
Ventura County. Their new Bell 222T is a fully equipped CCT aircraft staffed by
a full time paramedic and MICN 24 hours a day, wheras the Sheriff Department's
pilots go home in the evening. Currently, Mercy Air 8 has been responding to 911
calls when the Sheriff's Dept's helicopters have not been available.

Ironically, one of the hang-ups of Mercy taking over the primary 911 response in
Ventura County, is the fact they run on so many interfacility transports, and
may not be available for 911 responses.

Another sticking point is the cost to the PT. The Sheriff's dept does not charge
anyone for thier services, wether it be for a rescue, air evac, etc. Mercy
charges an average of $3,400 for a 911 response.

Ken Koller
kko...@earthlink.net
EMT, American Medical Response, Los Angeles, CA
http://westarm.bc.ca/Ken_Koller/fireline.html


ParrotMedic

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Aug 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/13/99
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I'm new to the group but would like to contribute. In my area in north
central Indiana, many fire departments have strict rules that state that any
firefighter responding to a call be in full turnout gear before they even
get in the engine (aerial, etc.) regardless of the type of call they are
going to. It is purely a safety issue here. (i.e. vehicle accident, being
pulled off an EMS call to respond to a structure fire, etc.)

K. Humphrey
Paramedic-Indiana


Ken Koller <kko...@earthlink.NOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:7p0kri$4vj$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net...


> "Brian Humphrey" <brian.h...@prodigy.net> writes:
> > In an apparent response to mention of a high-profile medical call in Los
> > Angeles,
> > ec...@myems.net wrote...
> >

> > > Does anyone besides me wonder why fire departments that took over

> > >EMS often wear turnout coats and fire helmets on routine EMS calls? If
> > >there was a need for turnout gear and helmets on every EMS call,
> > >wouldn't EMS providers have been wearing them before the fire
department
> > >decided to start doing EMS?
> >
> >
> > The use of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) in the firefighting arena
has
> > always been stressed - and rightfully so. In light of the shooting you
> > mention, the Fire-based EMS crews mostly wore "Brush Jackets" to cover
their
> > ballistic protection vests and helmets for similar reasons. They also
> > provide somewhat of a barrier for bloodborne pathogens. Mostly however,
the
> > fire gear is worn prominently on shooting calls to differentiate us from
> > bystanders or the bad guys. Also, some crews had scrambled from the
Stations
> > in exercise attire, and properly donned turnout pants and boots to make
a
> > rapid response. This often happens at night as well.
>

> > PPE works for all. Whether a turnout coat and helmet worn by a
Firefighter
> > or a Star-of-Life adorned jumpsuit worn by a goggle clad EMT, there is
no
> > reason to do anything but praise those who take care of themselves
FIRST!
>

> Brian, it is a rare day that I disagree with you, but here I must. As most
here
> know I work on a daily basis with the Los Angeles County FD responding to
> medical calls. Most often, we have firefighters showing up in bunker pants
and
> pullover sweatshirts (Those nifty firefighter work shirts, I have an AMR
lgo
> clad one myself) These are the structure fire type pants, not the lighter
brush
> style. Every so often at night we get a firefighter or two with a turnout
coat,
> but again, most often just a pullover sweatshirt or in most cases a
t-shirt
> emblazened with some sort of LACoFD logo. Even in the daytime, we see many
a
> LACoFD firefighter decked out in turnout clothes as opposed to a standard
> uniform.
>
> Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe OSHA does not recognize bunker
pants
> or turnout coats as PPE. Here in Ventura County where I most happily
reside, the
> county FD here has gone to EMS jackets, which are windbreaker style long
sleeve
> jackets that are OSHA approved for PPE. They are worn on all EMS calls for
body
> substance isolation, and the firefighters simply pull their gloves over
the
> wrists of the jacket to create a good seal.
>
> As for the bunker pants at night, this is my pet peeve with LACoFD. I
myself
> routinely work 24 hour shifts, and we're held to a 90-second out of chute
time.
> We have to be out of bed and on the radio in less than two minutes. It
seems
> that we all can get into uniform pants and a jacket, or a jumpsuit and be
out at
> our unit in 90 seconds. Yet these firefighters take upwards of three
sometimes
> even four minutes to get out of the station and simply pull on a pair of
pants
> with boots already attached. I find it very unproffessional that these
> firefighers show up in thier smokey turnouts at two in the morning and
wind up
> sitting on the pt's couch. There's no need for thick nomex pants on a
difficult
> breather call in the middle of the night. (Lets not get into the attitude
that
> some of these people have one some of the more bogus type calls we get at
4 in
> the morning!)
>
> Personally I would like to see more EMS-dedicated response clothing for
fire
> dept (And private EMS providers as well) that would bring not only a
better
> level of PPE to responders as well as be professional as well.
>
> As for helmets, I can't remember the last time I saw a firefighter wear a
helmet
> on a EMS call outside a traffic collision or some type of technical
rescue.

ec...@myems.net

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Aug 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/13/99
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My original question was about why fire departments that provide EMS
wear fire gear on routine EMS calls. Because I posted it in response to
the LA shooting question, it looked like I was referring specifically to
those LA personnel who responded to that call. I wasn't. My mistake.
I'm glad I wasn't there and I'm sure they all did a good job in an awful
situation.

But, I do wonder in general why it is necessary or appropriate to outfit
EMS providers in fire gear just because the agency that is providing the
EMS service happens to be a fire department. If a fire department was
given the responsibility of running a police service, would they send
their police officers out in fire gear?

It seems that whenever the subject comes up, someone starts making
cracks about EMS wearing polyester uniforms. I don't see anyone making
cracks about why the police who respond to the same calls are also
wearing polyester uniforms. Of course, police also wear vests. But so
can we, and some EMS and some firefighters do. But, the police don't
show up in turnout gear and helmets, do they? Is it because they are
just too stupid to know about personal safety as is implied about EMS
providers? I don't think so. When the police go to a riot situation
they wear riot gear, and when they go to a SWAT situation, they wear
SWAT gear. But, they don't wear riot gear or SWAT gear on every call
and every time they walk into someone's home.

So, if the police can show up at a routine cardiac or respiratory call
and don't need turnout gear and helmets for safety; and EMS departments
run by experienced EMS-oriented people don't show up in turnout gear and
helmets on every EMS call; why do some fire-department-run EMS programs
insist on sending their people out on routine EMS calls in fire turnout
gear and helmets?

Micbloo

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Aug 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/13/99
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, wheras the Sheriff
>Department's
>pilots go home in the evening.

Wow, surprised the sheriffs arent 24 hours also. $$$$ maybe?

>Ironically, one of the hang-ups of Mercy taking over the primary 911 response
>in
>Ventura County, is the fact they run on so many interfacility transports, and
>
>may not be available for 911 responses.

That can be quickly allieviated by adding a second ship. If the company that
runs Mercy Air wants to make a run for the contract it would be in their best
interests to provide that.

Gerard

Micbloo

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Aug 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/13/99
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>Subject: Re: Los Angeles Evac Services Question

Thanks to everyone who replyed to my questions. I appreciate the responses.

Gerard

Carey Gregory

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Aug 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/13/99
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ec...@myems.net wrote:

>So, if the police can show up at a routine cardiac or respiratory call
>and don't need turnout gear and helmets for safety; and EMS departments
>run by experienced EMS-oriented people don't show up in turnout gear and
>helmets on every EMS call; why do some fire-department-run EMS programs
>insist on sending their people out on routine EMS calls in fire turnout
>gear and helmets?

Police and EMS personnel show up in their standard uniforms. So does
the fire department. So what's your question exactly?

Let's get to the real questions....

1. Does a uniform affect the level of care provided?

2. Does nearly doubling a department's uniform budget improve the
level of service provided by that department?

3. What is accomplished by making a duel-role individual carry two
uniforms and run around town changing uniforms on the side of the
road?

4. Do your police and EMS personnel carry appropriate protective gear
for responding to fires, MVA's, etc? If not, why not? Are they
invulnerable, expendable, or merely useless in a hazardous
environment?


--
Carey Gregory

"The average dog is a nicer person than
the average person." -- A. Rooney

Jared Wilson

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Aug 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/13/99
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I remember back in the day (a decade ago) when the Sheriff was the primary
responder for call here in San Bernardino County. In Victorville (my home)
the sheriff and CHP out of Rialto and Dagget respectivly ran all the calls.
I first rember mercy Air in the early-mid 90's put a helicopter up here on
weekends and eventully moved a helicopter up here 24/7. I think the sheriff
pretty much only runs Mt. rescues for their paramedic helicopters and the
CHP isn't running anything to my knowledge as Mercy has pretty much taken
over all of the primary response. (way out in the desert the CHP sometimes
brings in helicopters from Fort Irwin) it seems Mercy Air is comming into So
Cal just like AMR did real quick several years ago. i'm suprised they
haven't bought out critical Air Corp in San Diego County.

Jared Wilson


Ken Koller

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Aug 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/14/99
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mic...@aol.com (Micbloo) writes:
> , wheras the Sheriff
> >Department's
> >pilots go home in the evening.
>
> Wow, surprised the sheriffs arent 24 hours also. $$$$ maybe?

I think it has to do with the need for helicopters at night in Ventura County
is very minimal, outside infrequent patrol duties, (They have a MD500E that I
havn't seen in forever and henceforth, they don't patrol at night like they used
to.)


DPHMICN

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Aug 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/14/99
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> kko...@earthlink.NOSPAM.net (Ken Koller) wrote

DPHMICN

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Aug 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/14/99
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kko...@earthlink.NOSPAM.net (Ken Koller)
wrote and replied,

>mic...@aol.com (Micbloo) writes:
>> , wheras the Sheriff
>> >Department's
>> >pilots go home in the evening.
>>
>> Wow, surprised the sheriffs arent 24 hours also. $$$$ maybe?
>

>I think it has to do with the need for helicopters at night in Ventura County
>
>is very minimal, outside infrequent patrol duties, (They have a MD500E that
>I
>havn't seen in forever and henceforth, they don't patrol at night like they
>used
>to.)

Ken,
Actually a small point of clarification. I've always been told that the 530 is
actually a 530F model, not E. At least that's what's on the back of our
baseball cards we hand out at public events.
When I'm at the hanger tomorrow I'll try to clear up this minor point.
I almost always am in either Copter 5 or 7, thus I suppose it really doesn't
matter if it's an E or F for my day to day duties.
I'm content to just sit where they tell me and do patient care. :)

D. Hadland, RN
Flight Nurse
SAR/Aviation Unit
Ventura County sheriff's Department

p.s. for anybody following this thread who's interested...we still have
helicopter unit tee shirts available for $15.00 (includes postage). Just email
me if interested in ordering details.

Micbloo

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Aug 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/14/99
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>I almost always am in either Copter 5 or 7, thus I suppose it really doesn't
>matter if it's an E or F for my day to day duties.

You do medevacs in the 530 model model? I know it can and has been done but
isnt it a little cramped for space?

Gerard

DPHMICN

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Aug 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/15/99
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Sorry for the confusion. No, I don't do medavacs in the 530. At best the 530
might deliver me or another ALS provider on a scene with a set of gear, leave
me, and come back in a UH-1 for transport out. At least that's in theory. I
don't know of it ever happening.
All the medavacs are done using one of the UH-1's. Usually Copter 5 as it has
an external hoist. Copter 5 and 6 would be the primary medavac ships. Copter 7
could be used but is primaryaly a fire support ship. Copter 4 is used for
mapping, patrol, incident command, etc.
FWIW, I checked the data sheet in Copter 4 while out at the hanger doing hoist
training this morning. It is a 530F, not an E model.

Don


Micbloo

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Aug 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/15/99
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>Sorry for the confusion. No, I don't do medavacs in the 530.

No problem. That's the way it came out on the post.
And thanks for your mini-briefing on the copters. I enjoyed it. Too bad
Ventura County cant get some new ships like it brothers in LA (city and
county). Like maybe one 412!!

Gerard

John Mercer

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Aug 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/16/99
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Click for Bradenton, Florida Forcast

Gary Saffer

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Aug 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/16/99
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Brian Humphrey wrote:
>
> The use of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) in the firefighting arena has
> always been stressed - and rightfully so. In light of the shooting you
> mention, the Fire-based EMS crews mostly wore "Brush Jackets" to cover their
> ballistic protection vests and helmets for similar reasons.

The only real reason that I could think of, and of course this comes from a non
fire fighter, is that after the medical call they might have to go to a fire
call. They can't leave the turnout gear at the station, and even as big as they
are, is there really room to store the stuff and get into it enroute to a fire?

Mostly however, the
> fire gear is worn prominently on shooting calls to differentiate us from
> bystanders or the bad guys.

Good target identification too!
>

> For the record - the LAFD has been doing the ambulance biz since 1927.

I thougtht they didn't start doing it until 1972?

Gary

Ken Koller

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Aug 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/16/99
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dph...@aol.com (DPHMICN) writes:

> Ken,
> Actually a small point of clarification. I've always been told that the 530 is
> actually a 530F model, not E. At least that's what's on the back of our
> baseball cards we hand out at public events.
> When I'm at the hanger tomorrow I'll try to clear up this minor point.

> I almost always am in either Copter 5 or 7, thus I suppose it really doesn't
> matter if it's an E or F for my day to day duties.

> I'm content to just sit where they tell me and do patient care. :)

Thanks, I'm not up on my helicopter designations, I figured it was close.

Oh and everyone else, the Avaition unit t-shirts are really cool, I have one
myself and it's pretty awesome.

Ken Koller
kko...@earthlink.net
EMT, American Medical Response, Los Angeles, CA
http://westarm.bc.ca/Ken_Koller/fireline.html

"I'd say the Dodgers are turning into the Clippers...
...But that would be an insult to the Clippers."
- Bill Plashke, L.A. Times.

Ken Koller

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Aug 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/16/99
to
dph...@aol.com (DPHMICN) writes:

> Sorry for the confusion. No, I don't do medavacs in the 530. At best the 530
> might deliver me or another ALS provider on a scene with a set of gear, leave
> me, and come back in a UH-1 for transport out. At least that's in theory. I
> don't know of it ever happening.
> All the medavacs are done using one of the UH-1's. Usually Copter 5 as it has
> an external hoist. Copter 5 and 6 would be the primary medavac ships. Copter 7
> could be used but is primaryaly a fire support ship. Copter 4 is used for
> mapping, patrol, incident command, etc.
> FWIW, I checked the data sheet in Copter 4 while out at the hanger doing hoist
> training this morning. It is a 530F, not an E model.

But they used to do evacs in the old Long Ranger they had, before it crashed. I
would think that would be kinda cramped as well.

DPHMICN

unread,
Aug 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/16/99
to
>But they used to do evacs in the old Long Ranger they had, before it crashed.
>I
>would think that would be kinda cramped as well.

You're correct. The old 'Copter 4' wa used for medevacs on occassion. It's
medavac role was a secondary one. Preference was using one of the UH-1's.
I oringinally started out doing Medevac's in an old 500 or an A-Star (not in
Ventura County).
Luckily times have changed since way back when and I'm in a bigger working
environment. :)
Don


Mark Lassman

unread,
Aug 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/16/99
to
Yes, you are correct... I did not mean to downlpay what air ambulance
services do by referring to them as a "taxi service". Certainly they are
not, as I'm well aware of what they do. I was simply responding to the
question that was asked as to why LAFD was not used for the transfer and
why a private service such as Mercy was used instead. I apologize if anyone
was offended by my use of "taxi service". It was a poor choice of terms.

LeadVOCALZ <leadv...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990812232027...@ng-cr1.aol.com...

Loren Deichman

unread,
Aug 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/16/99
to
Most fire services that run EMS are now EMS Departments that occasionally
put out fires. Turnouts are expensive. They have to justify the cost
somehow.
Loren

--
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."--
Anonymous Alcoholic


Ken Koller <kko...@earthlink.NOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:7p0kri$4vj$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> "Brian Humphrey" <brian.h...@prodigy.net> writes:
> > In an apparent response to mention of a high-profile medical call in Los
> > Angeles,
> > ec...@myems.net wrote...
> >
> > > Does anyone besides me wonder why fire departments that took over
> > >EMS often wear turnout coats and fire helmets on routine EMS calls? If
> > >there was a need for turnout gear and helmets on every EMS call,
> > >wouldn't EMS providers have been wearing them before the fire
department
> > >decided to start doing EMS?
> >
> >

> > The use of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) in the firefighting arena
has
> > always been stressed - and rightfully so. In light of the shooting you
> > mention, the Fire-based EMS crews mostly wore "Brush Jackets" to cover
their

> > ballistic protection vests and helmets for similar reasons. They also

> > provide somewhat of a barrier for bloodborne pathogens. Mostly however,


the
> > fire gear is worn prominently on shooting calls to differentiate us from

Micbloo

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Aug 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/17/99
to
>>But they used to do evacs in the old Long Ranger they had,

Here in Nassau County (NY) the PD fly 3 LongRangers and one 407 all for
medevac missions. Have been ( the Rangers) for some time. The LongRanger &
AStar are still used extensively by many evac programs & PD units. But I can
imagine the 500 being REAL cramped.

Gerard


DPHMICN

unread,
Aug 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/18/99
to
> Here in Nassau County (NY) the PD fly 3 LongRangers and one 407 all for
>medevac missions. Have been ( the Rangers) for some time. The LongRanger
>&
>AStar are still used extensively by many evac programs & PD units. But
>I can
>imagine the 500 being REAL cramped.

Gerard,
Yeah the 500 was really cramped. As a neophyte flight nurse at the time "I
didn't know what I didn't know". I just thought this is the best it gets.
I look back on some of those flights now and know there was an angel flying
beside me. Had the $#@! hit the fan there was no real room to work a patient
enroute. We mounted the stretcher transverse behind the pilot. Memory suggests
that vertical space between patients chest and roof was perhaps 6 or 8
inches...not much more room than to slip a stethoscope and convince yourself
you were hearing good breath sounds. But those patients all allowed me the
privilege of learning and growing in the profession despite the space
limitations. For that I'm thankful.
But I still wouldn't go back to those days. :)

don

Micbloo

unread,
Aug 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/20/99
to
>Yeah the 500 was really cramped.

I can really imagine. I've been aboard a 500E on a sighseeing flight in Hawaii
and know the limitations especially for medevacs. But "dem wuz the olden days"!
LOL!

Gerard

George T. Kramer

unread,
Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
to
RE: "But, I do wonder in general why it is necessary or appropriate to

outfit EMS providers in fire gear just because the agency that is providing
the EMS service happens to be a fire department. If a fire department was
given the responsibility of running a police service, would they send their
police officers out in fire gear?"

Way back in 1965, Columbus, Ohio Division of Fire was one of the very first
fire departments to incorporate EMS operations with the introduction of
their "Heartmobile" and they were one of the first to have paramedics on
board. Through a very long tradition, a great many changes took place.

Up until about five (5) years ago, Columbus Fire paramedics (EMT-P) and
second squad personnel (EMT-A) simply wore their fatigues when taking
emergency runs (along with squad jackets, parkas, and rain gear, of course).
But all of this has changed. Because EMS work is not covered under Fair
Labor Standards Act (FLSA) regulations, whereas Columbus
firefighter/paramedics work the same 24-on/48-off platoon system as all
other firefighters, all hours worked above a 40-hour work week must be
considered as overtime and personnel must be paid time-and-a-half. (Several
lawsuits in other fire departments have either been filed, pending, or
awarded.)

Even though some seventy-five to eighty percent of the work by Columbus
firefighter/paramedics is EMS, the Division of Fire desired to substantiate
that all such firefighter/paramedics were primarily firefighters (not
eligible for FLSA overtime) rather than paramedics (FLSA overtime required).
To facilitate this, it became Division policy that all
firefighter/paramedics are required to carry complete turn-out with them
while riding an EMS vehicle. In addition to this, all Columbus EMS vehicles
were replaced with new vehicles (of the same type), whereas a new, much
larger compartment that was fitted with brackets in which SCBA equipment was
installed. Turn-out gear, rarely if ever worn, is stored in this same
compartment.

By doing this, the Division now insists that all EMS vehicles are now to be
considered fire apparatus. and thus, all of the time EMS personnel spend in
quarters and/or not specifically taking EMS runs, they do so as firefighters
(not eligible for FLSA overtime) rather than paramedics (FLSA overtime
required).

Ta-da!

For the most part, the only time most firefighter/paramedics actually don
their turn-out coats is when is si cold out that their squad jackets do not
afford them enough warmth. Occassionally, firefighter/paramedics will don
full turn-out when responding to and providing EMS support at fires and/or
HazMat Ops, but it is rather rare.

Cordially,

George T. Kramer


paulo.d...@gmail.com

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Sep 6, 2015, 11:58:43 AM9/6/15
to
Mercy Air is primary in Orange County. We actually used them a couple weeks ago to transfer from an accident scene in Laguna Hills to Mission Hospital in Mission Viejo.
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