the back fist
Mark-T
a heavy bag. I now do so regularly. It's fun,
and instructive, and provokes plenty of stares
in the gym.
All the hard styles pay lip service -"of course
that's in our style" - but I've never seen anyone
practice it with contact. So....
Target is to the side, it's not intended against a
sparring opponent in front (though you can spar
from a side stance). Right hand at left hip, swing
to the side, finish with arm in line with right
shoulder. The key is speed, as loose as possible
in the arm and shoulder.
OK, you already knew that, it's the easy part.
The challenge is to get the body weight behind it.
Like any strike, that's what's meant by 'power',
what boxers call a heavy punch. And that's why
you have to hit something.
The trick is to snap, rotate, the hips. If you can
throw a frisbee, that's pretty much it. All you need
are reps, learning to sync the hip rotation to the
arm unfolding. The bag will provide ample
feedback, you'll feel it as you improve. Or, a
partner with a thai pad, that would probably work.
Contact with the small area behind the two large
knuckles, not the flat of the hand. This takes
practice, to get precise control. I stick quarter
sized bits of masking tape to the bag.
It's a jaw breaker, a fight finisher. And, like I
said, very underrated.
Mark
Rabid Weasel Lawson
Chopper." It's high percentage. The Spinning Backfist (that you're
describing) is infrequently used because it has such a very narrow
range when it will be effective. In Pugilism it's called "The Pivot
Blow." There is a spinning elbow or spinning forearm discussed in at
least one antique manual that I know of (that I can recall, anyhow).
It was called "The Foul Pivot Blow" and apparently saw enough
(mis)use that at least one author though it best to discuss said
illegal blow.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Greendistantstar
> I use the backfist sometimes in Pugilism where it's called "The
> Chopper." It's high percentage.
Any ref to this?
> The Spinning Backfist (that you're
> describing) is infrequently used because it has such a very narrow
> range when it will be effective. In Pugilism it's called "The Pivot
> Blow." There is a spinning elbow or spinning forearm discussed in at
> least one antique manual that I know of (that I can recall, anyhow).
> It was called "The Foul Pivot Blow" and apparently saw enough
> (mis)use that at least one author though it best to discuss said
> illegal blow.
Is this a CQC technique, not the longer range strike referred to by the OP?
I'm trying to visualize this strike....
GDS
"Lets' roll!"
Rabid Weasel Lawson
wrote:
> On 29/07/2011 8:26 PM, Rabid Weasel Lawson wrote:
>
> > I use the backfist sometimes in Pugilism where it's called "The
> > Chopper." It's high percentage.
>
> Any ref to this?
Yeah. Mendoza describes using The Chopper as a riposte to a round
blow at the head. His guard for a round blow at the ear is to raise
the arm on that side, elbow up, and take the blow on the inner bicep.
The riposte is a downward backfist. A few other references in
Broughton era manuals (ims, "Boxing" by "A Celebrated Pugilist" is
one).
Jack Slack's standard guard is an elbow-lead weird sorta thing. The
lead arm covers the chin/neck/nose (head, really) with the elbow while
tucking the the lead fist beside the chin or ear. The rear arm covers
the mark (solar plex/pit of the stomach). Incoming lead punches are
guarded into the point of the elbow and a sideways or downward back
fist is the ripost. You can see an example of this in the "Simpler
Method of Boxing" section of Walker's "Defensive Exersizes." Carl
Cestari ripped this off and called it "The Vampire Guard" because it
reminded him of Bela Legosi's Dracula wrapping his cape around him to
expose only his eyes. You can find this in a few other of the London
Prize Ring era manuals but it appears to be slightly fringe in that,
while an accepted guard, it wasn't "the standard" by any means.
I've mentioned it before but Dempsey's (more or less) open guard and
inward hand-parry to a lead-off begs a sideways backfist riposte.
Dempsey makes a point of saying that backfists are illegal and then
goes on to describe them. (The short version is - Keep your guard a
little bit wide to sucker your opponent into trying to straight lead
you in the face between your fists, then swat his punch away and
backfist the crap out of him.) You see this sort of thing in old
boxing manuals sometimes. A description of how some illegal or dirty
boxing techniques are performed along with warnings that they're,
well, illegal <wink wink nudge nudge>. Corbett does this. My
favorite is Dorran who reminds us that kicking is illegal in boxing
and then has a full description and illustration of how one might
"accidentally" knee your opponent in the freaking head!
> > The Spinning Backfist (that you're
> > describing) is infrequently used because it has such a very narrow
> > range when it will be effective. In Pugilism it's called "The Pivot
> > Blow." There is a spinning elbow or spinning forearm discussed in at
> > least one antique manual that I know of (that I can recall, anyhow).
> > It was called "The Foul Pivot Blow" and apparently saw enough
> > (mis)use that at least one author though it best to discuss said
> > illegal blow.
>
> Is this a CQC technique, not the longer range strike referred to by the OP?
No. The Pivot Blow is a full on spinning backfist. I *only* see it
in LPR and transitional manuals such as Fitzsimmons.
It works in this context (within a narrow set of circumstances)
partially because, by this point, boxers were "playing to the rules"
of transitional LPR-to-MoQ. You could do things like the Fitzsimmons'
Shift (you still can, but it's not as easy now because boxers move and
punch differently now) and the Pivot Blow.
See pp126-127 (here Ruby Red uses a hammer fist for his Pivot Blow)
http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/1921000/1921948/5/print/Physical_Culture_and_Self_Defense-lulu.pdf
Donnovan discusses it too
The Foul Pivot Blow is, obviously closer range as an elbow/forearm
strike but I sill wouldn't call it CQC because you have to spin.
> I'm trying to visualize this strike....
Mendoza style:
Get in your left hand lead crouch, now imagine some one throwing a
kinda looping *LONG* range left hook with their thumb turned down (to
hit with the back of the knuckles) - a little bit like a tighter/
faster haymaker - aiming at your left ear (pp36-37 "Swinging left-hand
blow for the head" in Donnovan). Now, without changing the position
of your left fist turn your left elbow up so that the incoming blow
impacts on the inside of your left arm (bicep or triceps or somewhere
in between). This works against long range "hooking" movements. The
reason long range "hooking" movements were used is because there was
no real in-fighting in Broughton era boxing because the rules allowed
grappling, throwing, tripping, and a lot of "dirty boxing" such as eye
gouging and hair pulling (both documented). Boxers of the time
*could* have done in-fighting but the "Fancy" (i.e. "fans") wanted to
see throws. You didn't piss off the fans or you wound up beaten to
death by angry mobs. No, really.
LPR style:
Hooking movements during the mid-to-late London Prize Ring rules were
actually looked down on and derided as sloppy, amateurish, easily
stopped, "swings" by many writers (Not Donovan though). So a
backfist wasn't used the same way as Mendoza. Here's what Donovan
teaches of the Pivot Blow:
"The Pivot Blow is struck by standing well away from your opponent and
feinting as if you would lead for him with your left; instead of doing
so, wheel around, making a pivot of the ball of the left foot,
extending the right arm so that the heel of the hand will strike the
jaw or neck. This blow, when struck in this way, is fair. But it has
the element of trickiness, and is only practiced by pugilists when
they are in desperate straights, and indifferent as to the risk of
fouling. Therefore it is not recommended." - pp45, fig. 42
Dempsey's backfist riposte I described above, though Dempsey did
encounter the Pivot Blow in his fight against LaBlanche
Some other info/descriptions of the Pivot Blow:
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Pivot_blow
http://how-to-box.com/content/boxing-term-day-pivot-blow
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
Wannabe
>
> > I use the backfist sometimes in Pugilism where it's called "The
> > Chopper." It's high percentage.
>
> Any ref to this?
>
Does it really matter? You cannot fight if you are not on your ass.
> > The Spinning Backfist (that you're
> > describing) is infrequently used because it has such a very narrow
> > range when it will be effective. In Pugilism it's called "The Pivot
> > Blow." There is a spinning elbow or spinning forearm discussed in at
> > least one antique manual that I know of (that I can recall, anyhow).
> > It was called "The Foul Pivot Blow" and apparently saw enough
> > (mis)use that at least one author though it best to discuss said
> > illegal blow.
>
> Is this a CQC technique, not the longer range strike referred to by the OP?
>
> I'm trying to visualize this strike....
>
> GDS
>
Never mind. You cannot visualize anything when you are not on your
ass. It is very hard for a blind man to visualize Picasso's art work
from verbal description. It will be a frivolous waste of time.
Rabid Weasel Lawson
I wrote a reply and hit "post" some time ago. I'm still not seeing it
post up. If I don't see it soon, I'll assume that the internet ate it
and have to re-write it (which would be hugely annoying).
Mark-T
> I use the backfist sometimes in Pugilism where it's called
> "The Chopper." It's high percentage. The Spinning Backfist
> (that you're describing)
No I didn't. You misread, or perhaps I misdescribed.
> is infrequently used because it has such a very narrow
> range when it will be effective.
That is still true, even for the tech I have in
mind. It has a narrow range, TO THE SIDE.
Mark
Mark-T
> I didn't appreciate this strike until I started hitting
> a heavy bag. I now do so regularly. It's fun,
> and instructive, and provokes plenty of stares
> in the gym.
>
> sparring opponent in front (though you can spar
> from a side stance). Right hand at left hip, swing
> to the side, finish with arm in line with right
> shoulder. The key is speed, as loose as possible
> in the arm and shoulder.
>
> OK, you already knew that, it's the easy part.
> The challenge is to get the body weight behind it.
> Like any strike, that's what's meant by 'power',
> what boxers call a heavy punch. And that's why
> you have to hit something.
>
> The trick is to snap, rotate, the hips. If you can
> throw a frisbee, that's pretty much it. All you need
> are reps, learning to sync the hip rotation to the
> arm unfolding. The bag will provide ample
> feedback, you'll feel it as you improve. Or, a
> partner with a thai pad, that would probably work.
>
> Contact with the small area behind the two large
> knuckles, not the flat of the hand. This takes
> practice, to get precise control. I stick quarter
> sized bits of masking tape to the bag.
I also practice a combo: hammer fist to the ribs,
then back fist to the face. Both with the mechanics
described above, to the side, different wrist
twists. The trick is to rebound quick off the first
strike, and a double snap at the hips.
Mark
YumYumPandaburger
wrote:
he's talking 'bout the pimp-slap.
Fraser Johnston
> On Jul 29, 8:44 am, Greendistantstar<Greendistants...@iinet.net.au>
> wrote:
>> On 29/07/2011 8:26 PM, Rabid Weasel Lawson wrote:
>>
>>> I use the backfist sometimes in Pugilism where it's called "The
>>> Chopper." It's high percentage.
>>
>> Any ref to this?
>>
>
>
> Does it really matter? You cannot fight if you are not on your ass.
You do realize he was an amateur boxer right?
Fraser
Wannabe
wrote:
Yes, this is his coach:
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2008/10/700px-ndleprechaunsvg.png
He was beaten senseless in every fight. He turned to BJJ after he
realized he ended up on his ass in 100% of his fist-fights.