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Re: aim for the throat?
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Mark T
Oct 5, 2012, 12:52:58 AM10/5/12
to
On Oct 2, t...@physics.uq.edu.au wrote:
> > > > Is it reasonable to aim for the adams apple? I'm thinking,
> > > > with a leopard fist. Or, if you're sideways to the opponent,
> > > > instead of a back fist, a chop.
>
> > > Reasonable to aim for. Worth aiming for is another matter.
>
> > > But sometimes you'd be wasting much better targets by trying it.
>
> > Such as what?
>
> How likely are to to land the blow if the opponent is watching you?
You still don't get it.
> If you catch your opponent asleep, so as to reliably land the strike,
> that's different. (Side of neck might be a better target?)
Maybe, but the carotid KO is surely a less reliable man stopper
than the adams apple shot.
> A minor issue is that hits to the throat aren't reliable. People can get hit there
> hard enough to fracture cartilage without being stopped.
Really?
Do tell, about your experiences seeing ineffective cartilage
fractures
of the throat -
> OTOH, hitting that hard to the throat can kill. If people can be hit there
> with potentially permanent injury force and be unstopped/undropped,
> perhaps it will work and perhaps it won't work. Might something less likely
> to fail be better?
well, that's the question. If you get the first strike, confident
you'll
score, and it has to be crushing, what is less likely to fail? The
point is, I see an uppercut, or anything similar, as less reliable.
> > That's the point - It's a low percentage shot, in a duel.
> > But if you can catch an opponent in a sucker punch
> > type of situation, I doubt there's anything better, if
> > you want to score a single devastating blow.
>
> Lots of things will work for a sucker punch.
And, um, are any of them better?
You don't seem to get this 'debate' thigamajig -
> IANAL, but it seems to me that there are more potential legal problems
> with hitting somebody in the the throat with a sucker punch than not hitting
> somebody in the throat with a sucker punch.
oh, this is rich!
Let's see, there are lots of things better than the throat strike,
AND you don't want to try it, because of the legal problems!
I suppose the judge will throw the book at ya, for being so
dumb as to use this INFERIOR technique.
> I don't think you need sucker-punch level vulnerability for it to work.
um, I (you, actually) thought it was low percentage?
'make up your mind' is apparently also not one of your strengths -
do you carry two X chromosomes, perchance?
> > > > Obviously, it's a narrow target, but a KO shot if it connects,
> > > > yes/no?
>
> > > Why would it be a KO shot? If you connect hard enough, it'll be
> > > effective, but it isn't like the Adam's apple is the new nuts.
>
> > Says you -
>
> > I remember seeing someone take a punch there once,
> > accidentally, in sparring, bare knuckle. He was instantly
> > crippled, and hoarse for a week.
>
> Does he cope better with groin hits with the same force?
> I find, at the same force, hits to the nuts to be far more
> incapacitating than hits to the hroat.
Really and truly? You find that? double wow
Please elaborate re your controlled experiments comparing
hard, same force strikes to the nuts vs. the throat.
> Good vulnerable target for unexpected strikes. Not a super-target;
> don't overestimate its vulnerability.
Right.
I'll be concerned about fatality and legal problems, but I'll
be careful about overestimating its vulnerability.
> > > (Plenty of spearfingers to throat in various patterns/kata/forms.
> > > IMO, a good way to do a lot of damage to yourself by hitting an
> > > intercepting chin. Just the kind of move that inspires the search
> > > for hidden meaning in patterns.)
>
> > I think the idea is to hit that soft spot in the sternomastoid
> > notch, if the opportunity presents itself. You're too fixated
> > on the ring duel.
>
> Throat is one of the targets where spearfinger makes sense (note how the
> bunkai people like spearfinger to torso in kata).
It's the only target that makes sense.
> But I dislike broken fingers.
You continue to fixate on the duel scenario. In kickboxing, of
course
you aren't going to spear finger.
The main idea of kata, if it's not merely a dance, is visualization.
You're supposed to see the opponent, and the target is suddenly
open, and you hit it, with the appropriate strike.
Mark
> > > > Is it reasonable to aim for the adams apple? I'm thinking,
> > > > with a leopard fist. Or, if you're sideways to the opponent,
> > > > instead of a back fist, a chop.
>
> > > Reasonable to aim for. Worth aiming for is another matter.
>
> > > But sometimes you'd be wasting much better targets by trying it.
>
> > Such as what?
>
> How likely are to to land the blow if the opponent is watching you?
You still don't get it.
> If you catch your opponent asleep, so as to reliably land the strike,
> that's different. (Side of neck might be a better target?)
Maybe, but the carotid KO is surely a less reliable man stopper
than the adams apple shot.
> A minor issue is that hits to the throat aren't reliable. People can get hit there
> hard enough to fracture cartilage without being stopped.
Really?
Do tell, about your experiences seeing ineffective cartilage
fractures
of the throat -
> OTOH, hitting that hard to the throat can kill. If people can be hit there
> with potentially permanent injury force and be unstopped/undropped,
> perhaps it will work and perhaps it won't work. Might something less likely
> to fail be better?
well, that's the question. If you get the first strike, confident
you'll
score, and it has to be crushing, what is less likely to fail? The
point is, I see an uppercut, or anything similar, as less reliable.
> > That's the point - It's a low percentage shot, in a duel.
> > But if you can catch an opponent in a sucker punch
> > type of situation, I doubt there's anything better, if
> > you want to score a single devastating blow.
>
> Lots of things will work for a sucker punch.
And, um, are any of them better?
You don't seem to get this 'debate' thigamajig -
> IANAL, but it seems to me that there are more potential legal problems
> with hitting somebody in the the throat with a sucker punch than not hitting
> somebody in the throat with a sucker punch.
oh, this is rich!
Let's see, there are lots of things better than the throat strike,
AND you don't want to try it, because of the legal problems!
I suppose the judge will throw the book at ya, for being so
dumb as to use this INFERIOR technique.
> I don't think you need sucker-punch level vulnerability for it to work.
um, I (you, actually) thought it was low percentage?
'make up your mind' is apparently also not one of your strengths -
do you carry two X chromosomes, perchance?
> > > > Obviously, it's a narrow target, but a KO shot if it connects,
> > > > yes/no?
>
> > > Why would it be a KO shot? If you connect hard enough, it'll be
> > > effective, but it isn't like the Adam's apple is the new nuts.
>
> > Says you -
>
> > I remember seeing someone take a punch there once,
> > accidentally, in sparring, bare knuckle. He was instantly
> > crippled, and hoarse for a week.
>
> Does he cope better with groin hits with the same force?
> I find, at the same force, hits to the nuts to be far more
> incapacitating than hits to the hroat.
Really and truly? You find that? double wow
Please elaborate re your controlled experiments comparing
hard, same force strikes to the nuts vs. the throat.
> Good vulnerable target for unexpected strikes. Not a super-target;
> don't overestimate its vulnerability.
Right.
I'll be concerned about fatality and legal problems, but I'll
be careful about overestimating its vulnerability.
> > > (Plenty of spearfingers to throat in various patterns/kata/forms.
> > > IMO, a good way to do a lot of damage to yourself by hitting an
> > > intercepting chin. Just the kind of move that inspires the search
> > > for hidden meaning in patterns.)
>
> > I think the idea is to hit that soft spot in the sternomastoid
> > notch, if the opportunity presents itself. You're too fixated
> > on the ring duel.
>
> Throat is one of the targets where spearfinger makes sense (note how the
> bunkai people like spearfinger to torso in kata).
It's the only target that makes sense.
> But I dislike broken fingers.
You continue to fixate on the duel scenario. In kickboxing, of
course
you aren't going to spear finger.
The main idea of kata, if it's not merely a dance, is visualization.
You're supposed to see the opponent, and the target is suddenly
open, and you hit it, with the appropriate strike.
Mark
Mark T
Oct 5, 2012, 7:53:34 PM10/5/12
to
On Oct 5, "nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com> wrote:
> A strike to the throat can be very effective when someone is `in
> your face` mouthing off prior to the 'start' of the fight.
Right, a pre-emptive shot, that's what I have in mind.
> Angry (but inexperienced) adversaries will often adopt the
> classic 'ape dominance' posture in such situations: overerect,
> shoulders back, chest puffed up, AND *chin thrust both up and
> out.* It's a living invitation for a throat strike.
And, for the situation of facing a large adversary,
you don't want to rassle, or a 'clean fight', you
want to fight dirty, and try to disable him quickly.
So I figure, the throat is the best target.
> PS A throat strike in such circumstances leaves little or no
> visible evidence (unless you break, say, the cricoid or hyoid -
> in which case your opponent may suffocate). Much less shocking
> to spectators?witnesses then the bloody mess caused by a punch
> to the face.
>
> The leopard fist to the throat also requires little force and
> can be done very fast with little telegraphing or body
> commitment.
Also, you need a narrow weapon to fit the gap.
> Despite all that, however, it would not be my first choice in
> such a situation.
What, then?
Mark
> A strike to the throat can be very effective when someone is `in
> your face` mouthing off prior to the 'start' of the fight.
Right, a pre-emptive shot, that's what I have in mind.
> Angry (but inexperienced) adversaries will often adopt the
> classic 'ape dominance' posture in such situations: overerect,
> shoulders back, chest puffed up, AND *chin thrust both up and
> out.* It's a living invitation for a throat strike.
And, for the situation of facing a large adversary,
you don't want to rassle, or a 'clean fight', you
want to fight dirty, and try to disable him quickly.
So I figure, the throat is the best target.
> PS A throat strike in such circumstances leaves little or no
> visible evidence (unless you break, say, the cricoid or hyoid -
> in which case your opponent may suffocate). Much less shocking
> to spectators?witnesses then the bloody mess caused by a punch
> to the face.
>
> The leopard fist to the throat also requires little force and
> can be done very fast with little telegraphing or body
> commitment.
Also, you need a narrow weapon to fit the gap.
> Despite all that, however, it would not be my first choice in
> such a situation.
What, then?
Mark
Mark T
Oct 5, 2012, 8:41:04 PM10/5/12
to
On Oct 4, t...@physics.uq.edu.au wrote:
> > > > > > Is it reasonable to aim for the adams apple? I'm thinking,
> > > > > > with a leopard fist. Or, if you're sideways to the opponent,
> > > > > > instead of a back fist, a chop.
>
> > > > > Reasonable to aim for. Worth aiming for is another matter.
> > > > > But sometimes you'd be wasting much better targets by trying it.
>
> > > > Such as what?
>
> > > How likely are to to land the blow if the opponent is watching you?
>
> > You still don't get it.
> > > If you catch your opponent asleep, so as to reliably land the strike,
> > > that's different. (Side of neck might be a better target?)
>
> > Maybe, but the carotid KO is surely a less reliable man stopper
> > than the adams apple shot.
>
> > > A minor issue is that hits to the throat aren't reliable. People can get hit there
> > > hard enough to fracture cartilage without being stopped.
>
> > Really?
> > Do tell, about your experiences seeing ineffective cartilage
> > fractures of the throat -
>
> See, e.g., Bechman, Journal of Athletic Training 28, 217-219 (1993).
> > > > > > Is it reasonable to aim for the adams apple? I'm thinking,
> > > > > > with a leopard fist. Or, if you're sideways to the opponent,
> > > > > > instead of a back fist, a chop.
>
> > > > > Reasonable to aim for. Worth aiming for is another matter.
> > > > > But sometimes you'd be wasting much better targets by trying it.
>
> > > > Such as what?
>
> > > How likely are to to land the blow if the opponent is watching you?
>
> > You still don't get it.
> > > If you catch your opponent asleep, so as to reliably land the strike,
> > > that's different. (Side of neck might be a better target?)
>
> > Maybe, but the carotid KO is surely a less reliable man stopper
> > than the adams apple shot.
>
> > > A minor issue is that hits to the throat aren't reliable. People can get hit there
> > > hard enough to fracture cartilage without being stopped.
>
> > Really?
> > Do tell, about your experiences seeing ineffective cartilage
> > fractures of the throat -
>
> Person in case study did notice when voice didn't work.
Impressive retort.
I'll look for it.
> > > Lots of things will work for a sucker punch.
>
> > And, um, are any of them better?
> > You don't seem to get this 'debate' thigamajig -
>
> if they get badly injured by your attack.
> Don't want to kill them, or have a large risk of killing them? Plenty of things will work.
> Sure, a strike to the throat is likely to work.
> More likely to injure them badly or kill them than a punch in the face
> (and will look worse in court). If you don't care about that, then it might
> well be the best option.
Yes, injure him badly.
Kill him, probably not justified. In which case, the response should
be,
if you want to argue, "Throat strike is so good, it's too good, it
might be deadly."
Which deviates somewhat from your thesis that it's unreliable.
> > > I don't think you need sucker-punch level vulnerability for it to work.
>
> > um, I (you, actually) thought it was low percentage?
>
> To that I'll add: even without complete surprise.
>
> > > > I remember seeing someone take a punch there once,
> > > > accidentally, in sparring, bare knuckle. He was instantly
> > > > crippled, and hoarse for a week.
>
> > > Does he cope better with groin hits with the same force?
> > > I find, at the same force, hits to the nuts to be far more
> > > incapacitating than hits to the hroat.
>
> > Really and truly? You find that? double wow
>
> > Please elaborate re your controlled experiments comparing
> > hard, same force strikes to the nuts vs. the throat.
>
> You haven't been hit in both while sparring? You have and find throat hits worse?
> > > > I remember seeing someone take a punch there once,
> > > > accidentally, in sparring, bare knuckle. He was instantly
> > > > crippled, and hoarse for a week.
>
> > > Does he cope better with groin hits with the same force?
> > > I find, at the same force, hits to the nuts to be far more
> > > incapacitating than hits to the hroat.
>
> > Really and truly? You find that? double wow
>
> > Please elaborate re your controlled experiments comparing
> > hard, same force strikes to the nuts vs. the throat.
>
> Apart from being hit in both while sparring, I find that contact to the throat while drilling
> takedowns and the like to be quite tolerable at force that would really hurt if to the nuts.
I was hit a few times in the side of the neck, it was no big deal
Never in the front.
I had wrist bones across my throat many times in judo,
it's very painful. A deliberate hard hit would be worse.
> Does your example cope better with groin hits with the same force as the throat hit you described?
It's silly to claim you have anything like controlled, clinical
observations.
> > > Good vulnerable target for unexpected strikes. Not a super-
target;
> > > don't overestimate its vulnerability.
>
> > Right.
>
> > I'll be concerned about fatality and legal problems, but I'll
> > be careful about overestimating its vulnerability.
>
> If nothing ever disproves that in action, no harm done.
>
> > > Throat is one of the targets where spearfinger makes sense (note how the
> > > bunkai people like spearfinger to torso in kata).
>
> > It's the only target that makes sense.
>
> > > But I dislike broken fingers.
>
> > You continue to fixate on the duel scenario. In kickboxing, of
> > course you aren't going to spear finger.
>
> Why do you imagine I'm fixated on the duel scenario?
> > > Throat is one of the targets where spearfinger makes sense (note how the
> > > bunkai people like spearfinger to torso in kata).
>
> > It's the only target that makes sense.
>
> > > But I dislike broken fingers.
>
> > You continue to fixate on the duel scenario. In kickboxing, of
> > course you aren't going to spear finger.
>
>
> I don't see any point in going and attacking somebody by surprise, using a spearfinger or not.
> Why would I go and sucker-punch somebody?
Not spear finger, probably chop or leopard fist.
The opponent might be standing at your side.
> I'm doing it for self-defense, then the attacker is quite aware
> of where I am, and is actively trying to do harm to me.
No, I'm thinking of the situation where you are
threatened, but the villain has not yet thrown a punch.
"Hit him back first" is Sun Tzu's precept. Or maybe it was Confucius
-
> Technique deteriorates badly in a highly adrenalinised scenario
> like this.
That's always a problem, for any suggested tactics.
It's not particular for the adams apple attempt.
Mark
nemo_outis
Oct 6, 2012, 11:32:05 AM10/6/12
to
Mark T <markta...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0f29994b-adb9-4aad...@n7g2000pbj.googlegro
ups.com:
My first choice for such situations are the old standbys:
right cross, left hook, or either elbow (the short range of
'in your face' situations tends to make straight punches a
little awkward, especially as the opening shot).
If he is in 'ape dominance' position with throat/chin exposed
I would prefer a right palm heel to chin over a leopard punch
to the throat. The palm heel then *instantly* 'collapses'
into a right elbow - horizontal or 45-degrees diagonally
downward. Or just go directly to the elbow, skipping the palm
heel.
In short, I'm of the 'nothing succeeds like a furious barrage
of heavy blows' school as advocated by Chas. And I like to
open that barrage with a really heavy first shot, not a
'cute' one like the leopard punch (or similar 'specialty
blows' like eye jabs, etc). If I totally outclass the
opponent I can take such risks - but not otherwise.
Before we leave the 'in your face' subject, I'll add in a few
other specialty blows
For instance, a good option against the 'ape dominance'
opponent is the head butt. Good opener for the heavy barrage
that has the advantage that it often drives the opponent back
enough for immediate *straight* blow followups with both of
one's free hands.
Antoher really sneaky speciaty technique is the foot sweep.
- call it a bastard sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi. Works a treat on
'dominance' opponents who keep their feet parallel and too
close together (as they often do). Very, very sneaky. Nobody
knows why the other guy 'just suddenly fell down'. Not
without its risks (you compromise your own base to do it) but
...
One my sifu used to do was the 'stomach palm heel pump' - a
rapidly repeatedseries of thrusts at the stomach/solar plexus
with the hand (almost) touching the opponent's body. (Your
thumb, if you extended it, would point straight up). Very
good against, say, bell igerent drunks, especially if
accompanied with conciliatory words like, "No problem, mate -
let me buy you a drink." (However, beware lest he spew rather
than collapse :-)
Lastly the Thia *horizontal thrusting knee* to the groin (NOT
a rising knee) accompanied by a counterbalancing rock/lean
back of the upper body. Verygood if you misjudge and he gets
to throw the first punch. Rock back out of range and nail
himm in the groin. (I don't favour this one as an initiating
blow, however.)
Regards,
news:0f29994b-adb9-4aad...@n7g2000pbj.googlegro
ups.com:
My first choice for such situations are the old standbys:
right cross, left hook, or either elbow (the short range of
'in your face' situations tends to make straight punches a
little awkward, especially as the opening shot).
If he is in 'ape dominance' position with throat/chin exposed
I would prefer a right palm heel to chin over a leopard punch
to the throat. The palm heel then *instantly* 'collapses'
into a right elbow - horizontal or 45-degrees diagonally
downward. Or just go directly to the elbow, skipping the palm
heel.
In short, I'm of the 'nothing succeeds like a furious barrage
of heavy blows' school as advocated by Chas. And I like to
open that barrage with a really heavy first shot, not a
'cute' one like the leopard punch (or similar 'specialty
blows' like eye jabs, etc). If I totally outclass the
opponent I can take such risks - but not otherwise.
Before we leave the 'in your face' subject, I'll add in a few
other specialty blows
For instance, a good option against the 'ape dominance'
opponent is the head butt. Good opener for the heavy barrage
that has the advantage that it often drives the opponent back
enough for immediate *straight* blow followups with both of
one's free hands.
Antoher really sneaky speciaty technique is the foot sweep.
- call it a bastard sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi. Works a treat on
'dominance' opponents who keep their feet parallel and too
close together (as they often do). Very, very sneaky. Nobody
knows why the other guy 'just suddenly fell down'. Not
without its risks (you compromise your own base to do it) but
...
One my sifu used to do was the 'stomach palm heel pump' - a
rapidly repeatedseries of thrusts at the stomach/solar plexus
with the hand (almost) touching the opponent's body. (Your
thumb, if you extended it, would point straight up). Very
good against, say, bell igerent drunks, especially if
accompanied with conciliatory words like, "No problem, mate -
let me buy you a drink." (However, beware lest he spew rather
than collapse :-)
Lastly the Thia *horizontal thrusting knee* to the groin (NOT
a rising knee) accompanied by a counterbalancing rock/lean
back of the upper body. Verygood if you misjudge and he gets
to throw the first punch. Rock back out of range and nail
himm in the groin. (I don't favour this one as an initiating
blow, however.)
Regards,
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