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Re: Dumb Question Two: TMA's walking punch
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Mark T
Dec 27, 2012, 7:32:26 PM12/27/12
to
On Dec 26, "nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com> wrote:
> > I think it's just basic training in how to put body motion
> > into a punch.
> > The practical version is drill where, from a practical
> > fighting stance, you step or slide forwards and punch.
>
> The 'superman punch' beloved of MMA is essentially just a more
> dynamic version of the 'punch same side as leading step' It
> depends heavily on surprise and speed but works often enough not
> to be dismissed.
You beat me to it, sir. Indeed, the superman is the
stepping punch (or step-in). The funny part is, it's 100
years old, while the mma players act like Columbus
discovering america.
Curious is why it's not included in the 4 punches of
boxing's canon. I'd guess they consider it a modified
cross, stepping in behind the punch. But in one case,
you drive off the planted rear foot, whereas in the other,
the rear foot is unweighted. Very different mechanics.
For effectiveness of this technique, it's hard to beat
the young Mike Tyson. Search for his highlight films
on Youtube, to see him decapitating opponents.
Mark
> > I think it's just basic training in how to put body motion
> > into a punch.
> > The practical version is drill where, from a practical
> > fighting stance, you step or slide forwards and punch.
>
> The 'superman punch' beloved of MMA is essentially just a more
> dynamic version of the 'punch same side as leading step' It
> depends heavily on surprise and speed but works often enough not
> to be dismissed.
You beat me to it, sir. Indeed, the superman is the
stepping punch (or step-in). The funny part is, it's 100
years old, while the mma players act like Columbus
discovering america.
Curious is why it's not included in the 4 punches of
boxing's canon. I'd guess they consider it a modified
cross, stepping in behind the punch. But in one case,
you drive off the planted rear foot, whereas in the other,
the rear foot is unweighted. Very different mechanics.
For effectiveness of this technique, it's hard to beat
the young Mike Tyson. Search for his highlight films
on Youtube, to see him decapitating opponents.
Mark
Mark T
Dec 27, 2012, 7:47:39 PM12/27/12
to
On Dec 27, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
> Power comes from the kinetic chain, which requires progressive
> sequential motion (knee then hip then shoulder then arm) for maximum
> effect. And even without the optimum sequence, the torso rotation relative
> to braced hips can give most of the power.
>
> But have you never seen a traditional class marching up the floor with
> chest and shoulders square at all times? There is very little pivot, and there is
> absolutely no kinetic chain.
>
> To do any pivot, as you step with your right foot, your shoulders would have
> to turn clockwise (right shoulder goes back as right foot goes forward). Then plant
> foot, rotate shoulder forward to punch. Have you seen it taught that way
> anywhere? I haven't.
That's just a calisthenic exercise, for beginners.
Watch advanced players spar, it's their favorite
attacking technique, modifed for an adversary at
close range, not that ridiculous idea of hitting someone
2 steps away.
Where I used to train, it was the basis for my favorite drill:
Opponents face each other, normal sparring range, i.e. a
few inches beyond reach. One side attacks with stepping
punch, at his own timing. Defender moves, backward or
sideways, at his choice, as far as he wants (no more than
one step). Attacker has to track and adjust, one punch.
Speed depends on rank.
Better yet, use the pulling hand, assuming the defender
wears a shirt. Try to grab his lapel as you strike. You
can't actually pull him, but fixing him in place doubles the
impact. i.e. the classic grab & pummel
I have an occasional training partner, we do that one a lot.
With variations.
Mark
> Power comes from the kinetic chain, which requires progressive
> sequential motion (knee then hip then shoulder then arm) for maximum
> effect. And even without the optimum sequence, the torso rotation relative
> to braced hips can give most of the power.
>
> But have you never seen a traditional class marching up the floor with
> chest and shoulders square at all times? There is very little pivot, and there is
> absolutely no kinetic chain.
>
> To do any pivot, as you step with your right foot, your shoulders would have
> to turn clockwise (right shoulder goes back as right foot goes forward). Then plant
> foot, rotate shoulder forward to punch. Have you seen it taught that way
> anywhere? I haven't.
That's just a calisthenic exercise, for beginners.
Watch advanced players spar, it's their favorite
attacking technique, modifed for an adversary at
close range, not that ridiculous idea of hitting someone
2 steps away.
Where I used to train, it was the basis for my favorite drill:
Opponents face each other, normal sparring range, i.e. a
few inches beyond reach. One side attacks with stepping
punch, at his own timing. Defender moves, backward or
sideways, at his choice, as far as he wants (no more than
one step). Attacker has to track and adjust, one punch.
Speed depends on rank.
Better yet, use the pulling hand, assuming the defender
wears a shirt. Try to grab his lapel as you strike. You
can't actually pull him, but fixing him in place doubles the
impact. i.e. the classic grab & pummel
I have an occasional training partner, we do that one a lot.
With variations.
Mark
Rabid Weasel Lawson
Dec 28, 2012, 7:49:00 AM12/28/12
to
On Dec 27, 7:32 pm, Mark T <marktanne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 26, "nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com> wrote:
>
> > > I think it's just basic training in how to put body motion
> > > into a punch.
> > > The practical version is drill where, from a practical
> > > fighting stance, you step or slide forwards and punch.
>
> > The 'superman punch' beloved of MMA is essentially just a more
> > dynamic version of the 'punch same side as leading step' It
> > depends heavily on surprise and speed but works often enough not
> > to be dismissed.
>
> You beat me to it, sir. Indeed, the superman is the
> stepping punch (or step-in). The funny part is, it's 100
> years old, while the mma players act like Columbus
> discovering america.
Weird, right?
> On Dec 26, "nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com> wrote:
>
> > > I think it's just basic training in how to put body motion
> > > into a punch.
> > > The practical version is drill where, from a practical
> > > fighting stance, you step or slide forwards and punch.
>
> > The 'superman punch' beloved of MMA is essentially just a more
> > dynamic version of the 'punch same side as leading step' It
> > depends heavily on surprise and speed but works often enough not
> > to be dismissed.
>
> You beat me to it, sir. Indeed, the superman is the
> stepping punch (or step-in). The funny part is, it's 100
> years old, while the mma players act like Columbus
> discovering america.
> Curious is why it's not included in the 4 punches of
> boxing's canon. I'd guess they consider it a modified
> cross, stepping in behind the punch.
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
Mighty Wannabe
Dec 28, 2012, 8:38:55 AM12/28/12
to
On Dec 28, 7:49 am, Rabid Weasel Lawson <lklaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 27, 7:32 pm, Mark T <marktanne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 26, "nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I think it's just basic training in how to put body motion
> > > > into a punch.
> > > > The practical version is drill where, from a practical
> > > > fighting stance, you step or slide forwards and punch.
>
> > > The 'superman punch' beloved of MMA is essentially just a more
> > > dynamic version of the 'punch same side as leading step' It
> > > depends heavily on surprise and speed but works often enough not
> > > to be dismissed.
>
> > You beat me to it, sir. Indeed, the superman is the
> > stepping punch (or step-in). The funny part is, it's 100
> > years old, while the mma players act like Columbus
> > discovering america.
>
> Weird, right?
>
It is not weird at all. MMA players don't even know BJJ was JJJ with a
> On Dec 27, 7:32 pm, Mark T <marktanne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 26, "nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I think it's just basic training in how to put body motion
> > > > into a punch.
> > > > The practical version is drill where, from a practical
> > > > fighting stance, you step or slide forwards and punch.
>
> > > The 'superman punch' beloved of MMA is essentially just a more
> > > dynamic version of the 'punch same side as leading step' It
> > > depends heavily on surprise and speed but works often enough not
> > > to be dismissed.
>
> > You beat me to it, sir. Indeed, the superman is the
> > stepping punch (or step-in). The funny part is, it's 100
> > years old, while the mma players act like Columbus
> > discovering america.
>
> Weird, right?
>
Brazilian touch, and they thought they invented ground-fighting. They
stole ideas from watching Professional Wresting, Professional Boxing
and Kung Fu movies, and then choked and slugged each other in their
sparring exercises to come up with "new" techniques that they never
knew had existed for centuries before their time. Silly.
Mark T
Dec 28, 2012, 2:53:45 PM12/28/12
to
On Dec 26, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
> I remember spending many hours walking up and down
> the floor punching as we stepped. Front stance with
> right leg back, right leg steps forward into front stance
> while right hand throws straight punch.
>
> So is this just another example of a technique with no
> application? Or is it really a block in disguise, since
> so many blocks seem to be strikes or chokes <g>?
Projection throws:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXBudD_z6No
See how many variations of that stepping punch
you can spot.
As an added comment, this demo is more
violent than most. There's a lot of soft aikido,
but this Yoshinkan dude looks badass.
I'd be delighted to train with him.
Mark
> I remember spending many hours walking up and down
> the floor punching as we stepped. Front stance with
> right leg back, right leg steps forward into front stance
> while right hand throws straight punch.
>
> So is this just another example of a technique with no
> application? Or is it really a block in disguise, since
> so many blocks seem to be strikes or chokes <g>?
Projection throws:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXBudD_z6No
See how many variations of that stepping punch
you can spot.
As an added comment, this demo is more
violent than most. There's a lot of soft aikido,
but this Yoshinkan dude looks badass.
I'd be delighted to train with him.
Mark
Mark T
Jan 3, 2013, 1:31:40 AM1/3/13
to
On Jan 2, Rabid Weasel Lawson <lklaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Not so. In my experience, in multiple varieties of trad TKD, drop and pivot is normal. I've seen drop and pivot in Shotokan and Kyokushin, again as something normal. There are trad karate how-to vids on youtube showing drop and/or pivot.
>
> > Ah, I see what you mean. I'm saying the traditional walk up the floor drill not only does not teach it, it works hard to prevent it. But it still may be taught elsewhere within the system. i watched a few TKD youtube videos. Some of them had the traditional stiff straight lunge punch but also a stationary drill where they pivoted more.
>
> > Most styles also do a fair amount of punching from a horse stance, but I don't see a whole lot of pivot or weight transfer there either.
>
> Um, no. It's part of the drill. There's a whole TKD terminology to
> cover it: The "Sinewave" Here's an example -
http://www.drysdaletkd.com/Student_Training_Guides/Sinewave.htm
>
> Note the specific statement, "Finally, when using sine wave we are
> dropping our body downwards at the end of the technique with helps us
> use gravity to our advantage and keep our acceleration building until
> the point of impact."
>
> It's dead-standard.
It's goofball. False physics.
Bobbing up and down adds nothing to the forward momentum.
Typical martial arts mumbo jumbo.
Mark
> > > Not so. In my experience, in multiple varieties of trad TKD, drop and pivot is normal. I've seen drop and pivot in Shotokan and Kyokushin, again as something normal. There are trad karate how-to vids on youtube showing drop and/or pivot.
>
> > Ah, I see what you mean. I'm saying the traditional walk up the floor drill not only does not teach it, it works hard to prevent it. But it still may be taught elsewhere within the system. i watched a few TKD youtube videos. Some of them had the traditional stiff straight lunge punch but also a stationary drill where they pivoted more.
>
> > Most styles also do a fair amount of punching from a horse stance, but I don't see a whole lot of pivot or weight transfer there either.
>
> Um, no. It's part of the drill. There's a whole TKD terminology to
> cover it: The "Sinewave" Here's an example -
http://www.drysdaletkd.com/Student_Training_Guides/Sinewave.htm
>
> Note the specific statement, "Finally, when using sine wave we are
> dropping our body downwards at the end of the technique with helps us
> use gravity to our advantage and keep our acceleration building until
> the point of impact."
>
> It's dead-standard.
It's goofball. False physics.
Bobbing up and down adds nothing to the forward momentum.
Typical martial arts mumbo jumbo.
Mark
Mark T
Jan 3, 2013, 1:43:03 AM1/3/13
to
On Jan 1, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Actually, the Dempsey falling-step jab punch derives ALL of
> > its extra momentum from gravity!
>
> Trimmed the irrelevant physics.
>
> Gravity acts down.
> A punch acts horizontally. This is called orthogonal.
> Gravity has no effect on the punch, except as it toppled the body.
>
> It topples the body slowly. I can take a punch at 3 ft/sec all day long,
> Momentum is meaningless. A truck moving at 3 fps will certainly
> MOVE me but not HURT me.
Try rolling the truck's front wheels onto your chest.
Report back to us on this experiment.
> You assumed the leg disappeared, allowing gravity to act. Fortunately
> that doesn't happen. What happens is that the muscular forces (in tension)
> between the center of mass of the leg as it flexes and the center of mass
> of the torso produce a net torque, unrelated to gravity, as should be
> clear from the ski unweighting discussion.
um, wow
The leg does 'disappear', for a fraction of a second.
(ditto for the ski turn) The torque IS the result of
gravity. The torque, applied to the opponent's body,
is substantial.
No need for argument, there's a simple proof.
Jab against a wall, then lift the front foot, leaning
on the wall. Try different length stances. QED
Tim, you exemplify the adage that a little knowledge is dangerous.
Mark
> > Actually, the Dempsey falling-step jab punch derives ALL of
> > its extra momentum from gravity!
>
> Trimmed the irrelevant physics.
>
> Gravity acts down.
> A punch acts horizontally. This is called orthogonal.
> Gravity has no effect on the punch, except as it toppled the body.
>
> It topples the body slowly. I can take a punch at 3 ft/sec all day long,
> Momentum is meaningless. A truck moving at 3 fps will certainly
> MOVE me but not HURT me.
Try rolling the truck's front wheels onto your chest.
Report back to us on this experiment.
> You assumed the leg disappeared, allowing gravity to act. Fortunately
> that doesn't happen. What happens is that the muscular forces (in tension)
> between the center of mass of the leg as it flexes and the center of mass
> of the torso produce a net torque, unrelated to gravity, as should be
> clear from the ski unweighting discussion.
um, wow
The leg does 'disappear', for a fraction of a second.
(ditto for the ski turn) The torque IS the result of
gravity. The torque, applied to the opponent's body,
is substantial.
No need for argument, there's a simple proof.
Jab against a wall, then lift the front foot, leaning
on the wall. Try different length stances. QED
Tim, you exemplify the adage that a little knowledge is dangerous.
Mark
Rabid Weasel Lawson
Jan 3, 2013, 12:12:48 PM1/3/13
to
Never mind. If you can't see the analogue to the Dropstep Punch, even
when the same terminology and descriptions are used, then it's a lost
cause.
(IH)
Mark T
Jan 4, 2013, 2:58:04 PM1/4/13
to
On Jan 3, Rabid Weasel Lawson <lklaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Ah, I see what you mean. I'm saying the traditional walk up the floor drill not only does not teach it, it works hard to prevent it. But it still may be taught elsewhere within the system. i watched a few TKD youtube videos. Some of them had the traditional stiff straight lunge punch but also a stationary drill where they pivoted more.
>
> > > > Ah, I see what you mean. I'm saying the traditional walk up the floor drill not only does not teach it, it works hard to prevent it. But it still may be taught elsewhere within the system. i watched a few TKD youtube videos. Some of them had the traditional stiff straight lunge punch but also a stationary drill where they pivoted more.
>
> > > Um, no. It's part of the drill. There's a whole TKD terminology to
> > > cover it: The "Sinewave" Here's an example -
>
> >http://www.drysdaletkd.com/Student_Training_Guides/Sinewave.htm
>
> > >Note the specific statement, "Finally, when using sine wave
> > >we are dropping our body downwards at the end of the technique
> > >with helps us use gravity to our advantage and keep our
> > >acceleration building until the point of impact."
> > > It's dead-standard.
>
> > It's goofball. False physics.
> > Bobbing up and down adds nothing to the forward momentum.
> > Typical martial arts mumbo jumbo.
>
> > > cover it: The "Sinewave" Here's an example -
>
> >http://www.drysdaletkd.com/Student_Training_Guides/Sinewave.htm
>
> > >Note the specific statement, "Finally, when using sine wave
> > >we are dropping our body downwards at the end of the technique
> > >with helps us use gravity to our advantage and keep our
> > >acceleration building until the point of impact."
> > > It's dead-standard.
>
> > It's goofball. False physics.
> > Bobbing up and down adds nothing to the forward momentum.
> > Typical martial arts mumbo jumbo.
>
> <sigh>
> Never mind. If you can't see the analogue to the Dropstep
> Punch, even when the same terminology and descriptions
> are used, then it's a lost cause.
I see the analog, and it's a fallacy, an illusion.
> Never mind. If you can't see the analogue to the Dropstep
> Punch, even when the same terminology and descriptions
> are used, then it's a lost cause.
In the drop step punch, one unweights the front
leg, to lean on the target. Gravity involves body
weight, not bobbing.
That silly sine wave thing fails, as dropping is
perpendicular to forward movement, they are
independent vectors; Physics 101
Simply step and hit, before your foot lands.
That's all the gravity you need, or can use.
Mark
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