Ranks above 8th dan

[bobj...@my-deja.com]

Hello,
I was doing some queries about two different styles of Karate that are
in the area that I am considering.
Wado Ryu and Isshin Ryu.
Wado seems to have stopped dan promotions at 8. The founder never
promoted himself past 8th dan; however, he was given an honorary
10th dan by the Japanese Imperial Family. Upon his death, his son
assumed this position, but no other senior students have promoted
past 8th dan. Wado is one of the 4 largest styles of Karate along
with Shotokan, Shito Ryu and Goju Ryu.

Isshin Ryu is about 25 years younger than Wado and is popular in many
parts of the US. Their dan rankings appear to be on the opposite end
of the spectrum compared to other traditional Karate styles. From
querying the web for about two hours, I found the following list of 9th
and 10th dans, of which I am sure is not complete do to my little time
spent researching the style)

Dan
Rank ?GrandMaster?
--- -------------
10th Tatsuo Shimabuku - Founder
10th Kichiro Shimbuku - Son
10th Harold Long
10th Don Nagle
10th Allen Wheeler
10th Harold Mitchum
10th Steve Armstrong
10th Ed Johnson
10th Milledge Murphey
10th J.C. Burris
10th Eiko Kaneshi
10th Angi Uezu
10th Tsuyoshi Uechi
10th Lewis Lizotte
10th Arsenio J. Advincula
10th Philip Raymond
10th James Chapman
10th Willie Adams
10th Lou Angel
10th J.L. Aiello
10th Phil Little
10th Toby Cooling
10th Don Nash
10th Joe Buckholtz
10th George Anderson
10th Bob Ozman
10th Byron Marriner
10th Phil Little
10th Trav Kichiro
10th Pete Mills
10th Nick Adler
10th Frank Romano
10th Dick Keith
10th Gary Alexander
10th Ralph Cherico

9th Rick Moneymaker
9th Phillip McElroy
9th William Duessel
9th Tommy True
9th Donald Bohan
9th Ed Johnson
9th Doug Noxon
9th Milledge Murphey
9th Joel Chandler
9th Byron Marriner
9th Michael Dobyns
9th Arnold Sandabrae
9th Ralph Passero
9th Nick Adler
9th Dennis Fink
9th Joel Buchholtz
9th Harold Nuchols
9th Maurice Msarsa
9th Jim McDonald

That is a list of nearly 60 9th and 10th dans. And it seems to be
mostly all inclusive to Americans. Isn't this ridiculous? Isn't
10th dan supposed to be the oldest, highest ranking person in the
entire system, and shouldn't there only be one? I have heard people
speak about how silly the dan rankings were and how freely they were
given out in this system, but I was completely suprised to see soooo
many. I couldn't even imagine counting the 5-8 dans out there. at
this rate, a 5th dan would appear to be a fairly low rank.

Is this really true about their ranks? Someone who has insight into
this please share. Also, if anyone has any comparisons between Wado
to Isshin ryu that would also help.

A confused and bewildered future karate student.
Bob

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[bobj...@my-deja.com]

Are there any Isshin Ryu people out there who can explain this odditiy?
Also...Please post corrections for any 9th or 10th dans I may have left
off the list.
bob
In article <7nnsps$g83$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

[ironw...@my-deja.com]

Okay, go get a cup of coffee and get comfortable, because this is a
mouthful. The reason there are so many Americans at 9th & 10th dan is
because most Japanese don't need the ego boost. If an american doesn't
keep getting rank or praise, good-bye, sensei. Americans view the black
belt (BB) as the brass ring--the goal of martial training. Training is
both the path AND the goal. I've been training (not karate--I study
Ninpo) for about seven years and every time someone I meet/know finds
out I'm a martial artist, the first question is always "Do you have a
black belt?" As if not having one meant that you know nothing,
regardless of time in training. People in this country have the
attitude that without a reward at the end, the journey is meaningless.
When you get a BB, it is your sho-dan, which literally means "first
step." The BB signifies that you know the basics and now you're ready
for the GOOD stuff. You can train safely without getting hurt
or hurting others. Moreover, you can absorb more complicated/sublte
techniques that you couldn't before. Sadly, most 10th dan martial
artists is the U.S. can't hold a candle to the skills of a japanese
shodan.
The problem is that most martial arts schools are businesses first,
schools second. They are little more than black belt factories. Thanks
for the check, here's your black belt. You know, traditionally in
ancient martial arts rank was not given. You had your white gi when you
started and after the years of hard work your belt was black with the
soil of your effort and hard work. That's why you're not supposed to
wash your belt when you throw the gi in the laundry--it's tradition.
Yor black belt was earned by your effort, not your mere attendance or
payment. I would submit to you that it doesn't matter how many higher
level BB students there are in the art. If you train hard and are there
for the right reasons to study martial arts, you won't care whether it's
an 8 or a 9 or 10. What's important is the skills you have and your
warrior spirit. Besides, Americans have totally bastardized the arts
anyway. So many schools have "American Karate" in their name to appeal
to misplaced patrotism. The only American Karate is poorly executed
Japanese karate. And before anyone asks, I am an American. Let me know
what you think about this.

In article <7nscgg$fr8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

[drbi...@aol.com]

[drbi...@aol.com]

ok- here is some more about the isshinryu high ranks. i have been in isshinryu since 1965 and have seen all the drama unfold. first, tatuso shimabuku set the stage by giving out some super-high ranks to some tough marines with little training- to be assumed after many years of practice. however, they continued to promote their toughest fighters to very high ranks way before they had the time to deserve them. not good. plus,, isshinryu is very, very popular and there are many, many black belts of high quality that have been teaching since the 1950's and 60's. consequently, many make it to very high ranks were it may be rare in other less popular styles. several of the men mentioned in your list are NOT in isshinryu. and several of them are not 10th dans- like chapman and noxon who died at 5th and 4th dan. several of them were given by long- who was big on over-ranking his buddies and gave a couple of 10th dans out on his death bed to short-term students like Aiello- reportedly for money. i was promoted along with willie adams,norbert donnelly and lloyd russette to 6th dan when i was only 28 and had only 10 years in training. ridiculous. the other guys where only 1 or 2 years older than me and had very little more training. admas and donnelly were outstanding and would go on to deserve the rank. not so much me and russette. it took us longer to be worth it. i had to wait 17 years for my next promotion, although if i had begged for it or paid for it like chandler and some of the others i may have been able to bamboozle some of the older guys to over-rank me. isshinryu is shameful in hte way hte ranks got out of hand. isshinryu should be the standard by which other systems model themselves but instead, it is a joke rank-wise. i have been to okinawa and i did not see anyone there who was better than we have here as a rule. i watched the WUKO world championships and i am 100% positive the there are plenty of isshinryu fighters that could beat their best. kata- not so much

[rasulisikivu]

> ok- here is some more about the isshinryu high ranks. i have been in isshinryu since 1965 and have seen all the drama unfold. first, tatuso shimabuku set the stage by giving out some super-high ranks to some tough marines with little training- to be assumed after many years of practice. however, they continued to promote their toughest fighters to very high ranks way before they had the time to deserve them. not good. plus,, isshinryu is very, very popular and there are many, many black belts of high quality that have been teaching since the 1950's and 60's. consequently, many make it to very high ranks were it may be rare in other less popular styles. several of the men mentioned in your list are NOT in isshinryu. and several of them are not 10th dans- like chapman and noxon who died at 5th and 4th dan. several of them were given by long- who was big on over-ranking his buddies and gave a couple of 10th dans out on his death bed to short-term students like Aiello- reportedly for money. i was promoted along with willie adams,norbert donnelly and lloyd russette to 6th dan when i was only 28 and had only 10 years in training. ridiculous. the other guys where only 1 or 2 years older than me and had very little more training. admas and donnelly were outstanding and would go on to deserve the rank. not so much me and russette. it took us longer to be worth it. i had to wait 17 years for my next promotion, although if i had begged for it or paid for it like chandler and some of the others i may have been able to bamboozle some of the older guys to over-rank me. isshinryu is shameful in hte way hte ranks got out of hand. Isshinryu should be the standard by which other systems model themselves but instead, it is a joke rank-wise. i have been to okinawa and i did not see anyone there who was better than we have here as a rule. i watched the WUKO world championships and i am 100% positive the there are plenty of isshinryu fighters that could beat their best. kata- not so much


Greetings......From its founder, Grandmaster Tatsuo Shimabuku, the Isshin-Ryu Obi lineage includes, but is not limited to, Master Don Nagle to Sensei Doug Noxon to Sensei Willie Adams and then to Sensei Lloyd Russette.......Both Sensei Adams and Sensei Russette set up schools in Detroit, Michigan, with Sensei Willie Adams Dojo located on the West of Detroit and Sensei Lloyd Russette's Dojo located on the East of Detroit on Gratiot Avenue.....i started training in 1974 (age 12) at the Isshin-Ryu Dojo on Gratiot under Sensei Russette (who at that time was red and white, rank of the Tiger). At the outset of my training, i was trained in Ki by Sensei Russette. After several months, i started training with Sensei John Gimpert and Sensei John "Libo" Libiszewski, in kata, basic movement drills, and sparring. Sparring was "full contact" without gear (except for a groin cup). Our rank promotions included "full contact" matches with other dojos from Canada and Windsor. I recall quite vividly that the "full contact" was as tough and intimidating as the MMA is today. After three years of training, I was barely above the white belt rank, and my instructors cared even less. They were more concerned about my skill development and my gaining the spirit of fighting. It was only after four years of training that I was even allowed to fight for my green belt. I earned it, but only after suffering a TKO where i lost to Sensei "Libo." He put me down with a devasting "groin smash." Afterwards, Sensei Gimpert, gave me my green belt while i limped to the locker room. I never wore the green belt. I've been training in martial arts (mainly in Aikido) ever since then and have only worn a white belt, if any belt at all. My early childhood experience in Isshin-Ryu taught me a lot, mostly about the place of ego and the awareness of how much their is to learn. The only thing i know in martial arts is that the more i learn, the more i realize how much more there is to learn. Sensei "Libo," Sensei Gimpert, Sensei Russette, and Sensei Adams has submitted their whole lives to Isshin-Ryu for over 40 years. When I was a kid, Sensei Russette told me: Isshin-Ryu: Everything. In my humble opinion, they are whatever Dan they say they are, and probably more.

[P. Barnett]

On Friday, July 30, 1999 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-5, bobj...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Are there any Isshin Ryu people out there who can explain this odditiy?
> Also...Please post corrections for any 9th or 10th dans I may have left
> off the list.
> bob
> In article <7nnsps$g83$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Your information is not correct. Advincula Sensei does not claim 10th Dan. He was promoted to 7th by Shimabuku Tatsuo. Rank isn't particularly important to Sensei. His mastery of the Martial Arts is recognized worldwide. Okinawan Masters of all styles honor his knowledge. He says that Martial Arts ability can be seen by performance. Within a few minutes on the deck we can see who knows their stuff. Many have tried, but no one promotes Advincula Sensei. I've been a student of Advincula Sensei since 1971. Many "Masters" are promoted by their friends and the associations they control. CPB (Typos are my own.)